Do Melee's Mid-Tiers Have Any Hope?

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In Super Smash Bros Melee, the mid-tiers are considered divisive. Mainly because of how difficult it can be for them to preform at the highest level of the Meta. The point of this video is do a speculative forecast if the characters can get out of the "Mid-Tier" and even go up a couple spots possibly.
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0:00 Do They Have Hope?
1:33 Luigi
2:48 Mario/Dr. Mario
4:18 Ad
5:18 Ganondorf
6:58 Donkey Kong
7:55 Link/Young Link
9:28 Game & Watch
#melee #midtiers #supersmashbros #smashbros
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gnar
Jose Rosario
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Kyle

[@Bombermanfan95]

“Some characters would kill for those things” In a low tiers case, I don’t think they really could…

[@ZachHonest]

LOL

[@dragonstar9125]

"Some Kirbies would cheese for those things"

[@StanleySophana]

Mekk has been focusing on solo Ganondorf for the year and he placed 9th at Super Smash Con 2023. That’s probably the best we’ve seen Ganondorf performed in years

[@lbfrank5204]

Yeah I haven't really heard of Mekk until Smash Con and the Ganon DK Crew Battle, which he proposed and set up, which was really fun to watch and, as he said in a post crew battle interview, showed that these characters have potential to do work in Melee's meta. Definitely someone I'll be looking out for in future Melee tourneys

[@nikc101]

True but iirc N0ne won GF with Ganon (not solo, but secondary pick)

[@sinfinite7516]

@@lbfrank5204Mekk was pretty famous as a good falcon dueing the slippi era he also streams is Ganon ranked runs

[@21Handguns]

I remember his falcon,dude is an absolute beast,I got high hopes for him

[@Landmasters]

Partly due to Leffen DQing in fairness. Though him taking Mango to Game 5 is no fluke, dude had some clear moments of glory

[@breakfast_skin]

It's insane how great DK has been doing recently in melee, I definitely see him moving up a few spots on the tier list in the near future.

[@AutisticJesusGaming]

It’s inspired me to want to pick up melee. It seems super cool and I really love how his combo game looks

[@lapplandkun9273]

Man. It took AMSA about over fifteen years for yoshi. Near future isn’t likely to happen. And that’s after a stagnant meta game that’s still thriving but with only consisting of space furries.

[@Tempiiii_TBC]

Waaaario

[@Naoplays1]

Donkey Kong will win

[@breakfast_skin]

Yeah, especially with us now having a dk main in the top 50.

[@ssbmwaddles]

DONKEY KONG IS HERE

[@jaxvr]

Someday😊

[@armakeen3576]

It aged well

[@crustman_]

Ik he wasn't in the video and considered a low tier, but I feel like Mewtwo can move to the lower end of mid tier with how he can combo pretty well and some players doing well with him.

[@lapplandkun9273]

If only he wasn't a literal big target

[@nuutral6674]

As an Adult Link, the only thing I can really say he struggles with (that hasn’t been said already) is his grab game, because he can only grab opponents on the ground. But Nair for both links is a niche but good OoS option for punishing approaches

[@crocworks]

I think he has a small grabbox at his hand that can grab aerial opponents, but it's very tiny and doesn't last long.

[@ex-x7079]

You're a link main and you think his nair is Niche? It's literally one of his best moves.

[@nuutral6674]

@@ex-x7079 Eh well, guess you’re right

[@nahor88]

If Link's grab had half the amount of lag, he'd be up there with Luigi. His confirms out of dthrow are SO GOOD, especially against floaties. It's just so risky trying to grab.

[@nuutral6674]

@@nahor88 it’s high risk high reward imo

[@Sike1921]

I've got faith that Mario will go up the ranks one day. He's got potential I can feel it.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

I wouldn't even count on it. Mario is just clearly not popular enough to just be outright winning professional tournaments pretty frequently in "Melee". You would probably think that way since he is Nintendo's mascot after all. At least, he's still pretty good in both "Smash 4" and "Ultimate", but he's just unfortunately not a good character in "Melee" like his brother Luigi is. That's why his Tier List ranking has actually kept on immensely dropping over the years since Mario actually used to be the 5th best character on the very first "Melee" Tier List (from all the way back in 2002). I think that Mario would have been a much better character in "Melee" if Sakurai himself didn't nerf his KO Power and Recovery the way like how he did all the way back when he first developed "Melee" in 2001.

[@dinglemcdangledongle]

​@@notkaymao "melee" isnt a real game

[@TopTierGamerMan]

@@SiMgUrL1721the reason Mario was good was that the other characters weren’t developed fully yet.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

@@TopTierGamerMan I know that the statements that I previously made about Mario were pretty negative, but I'm just trying to be honest in the end of the day. I mean. I desperately want Mario to be a good character in virtually any Smash game, but he's just not a good character sometimes unfortunately. It's just a shame that Mario still can't be a good character in Melee to this very day.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

@@notkaymao I just got into a habit on placing quotes on video game titles. LOL

[@charlzthedrummer]

Best part about the Marios is that if falco wants to play lame by spamming lasers, cape makes them play on your level.

[@twelvevoltage]

Exactly I can only reflect as many lasers as they shoot lol

[@WatchVidsMakeLists]

​@twelvevoltage wait so does the MF in MF DOOM stand for Melee Falco?

[@tatersthegoat]

i think as a doc player the character certainly has a chance to go far in the metagame, but like you said, there's only so many of us only 1 doc made ssbmrank last year (Franz, at 45th) so we've obviously not got a lot of representation but as long as we keep making progress in the more difficult mus doc has potential

[@lbfrank5204]

Mang0's also been labbing Doc as a legitimate counterpick to Hungrybox's Puff. I personally think he should be using him more against more top players to get a better grasp of the character but in the end if it's more doc exposure I'm in for that. He's been really close too, he's taken a game off of HBox with Doc and has had a number of them go to last stock

[@Capta1nTD]

I never liked Doc in the newer games but Melee Doc genuinely surprised me. He's fun to play, hits like a truck, has an incredible chain grab game that can lead to kills, his movement isn't the fastest but it's still decent, and his recovery is actually solid. Better than Falcon and Sheik at least. His range does hold him back but I still think he has the potential to compensate for that in the right hands. Pill does help fix that in a good amount of match ups.

[@NitroNix.]

One day I will push Mario to his highest potential because I know that he’s viable IMO

[@FloetryFox88]

I've been been a solo DK main all the way since late 64 era and I have always been preaching about how good DK ACTUALLY is for decades at this point. It's truly heartwarming to see folks finally seeing his full potential

[@ZachHonest]

PM DK is probably one of my favorite versions of the character, because it just kinda showed how good a buffed DK could be.

[@FloetryFox88]

@@ZachHonest yes absolutely true

[@nahor88]

DK is rough to deal with when he's able to pressure you. He's faster than you'd think, and can rack up damage in a hurry into good KO confirms. From what I've seen, he actually goes pretty even with Marth, as Marth has a hard time killing DK without a combo -> confirm. On paper he could be really good against Fox, as one grab can lead to a zero to death, but the reality is Fox just destroys him in neutral. I play Link/YL and used to love fighting DKs, but they started being able to consistently pressure and not get camped.

[@nescartridges]

i have a little faith in game & watch honestly but i understand your perspective. awesome vid!

[@mushublaze]

I love the sound design, and starting with Bomberman hero ost always gets me hooked

[@BoIognaiseSSBU]

You deserve way more subscribers and likes. You'll get them one day !

[@Newbmann]

Gotta say the fact DK has won a regional at xanadu legends is shocking to me. I dont even think luigi has one a regional on that scale although I could be wrong.

[@themetallicblueblur4761]

would you ever do a video on smash 4's equipment? i think its a part of the game that got slept on ngl. apart from the old slaj (smooth lander anchor jump) videos i dont really find anh videos of people using them

[@DylanSwag42]

What is the song at 3:14? I know that its green greens but I thought the song would be in the desc. Also, amazing video. It's like AsumSauce's style: clean, fast paced, and interesting.

[@gregsoccerman]

Your voice is so calming, you deserve more subscribers!

[@noirlavender6409]

Mid tiers are too damn difficult, there's a reason why Amsa took almost 10 years to win a major. I'm hoping for Franz to get a perfect bracked and someone to sd 2 or 3 times at grand finals so he can win a major soon, he's insanely good, but Doc is just thrash man wtf

[@WeArePineapples]

Luigi is so good no matter what tier he's in he's such a good combo character 🙌

[@stubish5582]

Honest Content getting sponsored? We goin places baby!

[@klarekeum7330]

Hey,Honest content fan being honest here... i think honest content is sick.

[@bailujen8052]

If i were to add buffs where every mid to low tier are buffed to be as good as Peach and Jigglypuff For Mario and Doc, Mario would be more closer to his SSBU gameplay focusing on vertical kills while Doc is more horizontal (with Fair being his only good vertical) Pikachu Up special direction gets fixed, Up deals more damage and Down b goes through platforms Yoshi (Pal buffs) Bowser: fireball for neutral special, reduced end-lag, up b more recovery, Kirby: faster air speed, air side b as a good horizontal edge-guard, fixed hitboxes (ending up as a slightly worse puff) Samus: gets melee 1.00 up b where the drill is inescapable Zelda: her neutral special same as Samus Link: Speed, reduced end-lag Young Link: Increased killpower

[@dragonstar9125]

I don't main him anymore, but I still believe in Doc. He'll win big someday, trust. Outside of that, I personally believe that both Link and Game & Watch could see some innovation and improvement at some point. Maybe not enough to rise entire spots on the tier list, but it could happen. Unfortunately, I also have pretty much no faith in either Mario or Young Link. Mario's gameplan hasn't changed much since his playerbase has declined and tech discoveries have mostly stagnated. Young Link, while in no shortage of movement or combos, also kills at over 300% against anyone who isn't puff, and he definitely isn't getting any better in the important matchups (Fox and Marth), so that probably isn't panning out well for him.

[@richarddominooo]

A rookie is like the only mario player, ever, and I'm pretty sure he's banned from tournaments, and Rocket hasn't attended anything this year. For G and W there just isn't enough players, and Qerb isn't active anymore. DK is the only mid-tier I really see flourishing in the coming months, he has high tier potential imo. (he needs a player like amsa to get his full potential)

[@dragonstar9125]

@@richarddominooo Believe in Junebug, DK's meta hasn't improved this much for nothing. I realize I forgot to mention DK in my original comment, though I honestly don't know if I need to given he's definitely going places.

[@LemonJoos]

yo what's the song playing at the beginning? heard it in a lot of videos but can't find it

[@megaman7799]

It's always been funny to me how Melee's tier list is, in a lot of ways, a measurement of how finished the characters are, with a lot of low tiers being low because they simply don't function properly

[@Landmasters]

I think Bowser has serious potential to move up as a pocket or secondary, though I doubt it can go beyond Game and Watch Characters like Falcon and Falco on a small stage like Yoshi's or with the iffy ledges of Battlefield have a rough time due to the reach of that getup attack and it only takes a few hits to go into tumble. Up B a few times for percent due to the rush down, sneak in a fair or uptilt and you can get them off stage, at which point it's simply execution until they're too far to recover I do agree with DK having the most potential, I could see him sneaking into Top 8 of majors like Luigi did in the mid-2010s. I just want to see Akir and Ringler team for doubles and make a crazy run, the flashy combos sound hysterical

[@dinglemcdangledongle]

amazing video, but one thing i would add is mario's up-b walljump

[@jameslisterthemarthplayer8322]

Plup did manage to have some success with Luigi at one point. So he does have potential to go up a couple spots. Donkey Kong has had some success, so he could go up some spots, maybe out of the mid tier. I myself have thought of experimenting with Mario at one point, mainly to try and bring back the days where he was 5th on the tier list.

[@lordtheodore13]

congrats on the sponsor!

[@j.b.8086]

Ayo what's on that desk 💀

[@amb4368]

I'm no genius but I think the title should be "do melee's..." not "does melee's"

[@JustButton]

typos are good for the algorithm

[@duckduckdonut]

unfotrunate but treu@@JustButton

[@Mr.D0rAdE326]

The journey of the hero of time

[@Monhamd1000]

They could surprise you of their strengths in a way or other.

[@andrescube64]

I think at some point in time, Luigi will win a major.

[@KatanaKuro]

love the melee content :)

[@ZachHonest]

Thank you!

[@user-yh7pk3oy7c]

It's the first time I see both links in one match (in melee), it's so weird

[@Singleparentof20000]

I actually think Luigi has fallen off quite a lot, there’s a lot top tiers can do to exploit his weaknesses, where as doc and dk has tools in neutral to have consistent counter play. I could see dk and doc being in the same spot and Luigi being right below them, with Mario. Mewtwo could be in the Mario tier with a few more talented players picking them up.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

Keep in mind that Luigi will always have the best Wavedash (due to the extremely low traction that he possesses), so that's one reason why he's pretty good in "Melee" still. Plus, he will always have some of the very best KO moves in "Melee" such as his Down Aerial aka Drill Kick move, for instance.

[@Singleparentof20000]

@@SiMgUrL1721 I’ve been playing for a long time. I think an amazing wave dash isn’t enough to deal with a campy neutral, and most of the top tiers can deal with that pretty well, especially if you can power shield or know how to even spot dodge lol. The annoying ass nair and dair still can just be beat out by dash dance. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@SiMgUrL1721]

@@Singleparentof20000 I know that Luigi himself will never actually be a Top Tier character in Melee, but he's still almost a top 10 character at least. LOL That's why I say that Luigi is a good character in Melee unlike his brother Mario unfortunately.

[@yerip4657]

In my uneducated opinion, DK together with Mewtwo have the highest chance to move on the tier list at least three spots or more. DK you already mentioned but if Mewtwo was more used I think we would see much more development from him

[@martinsotorj8484]

Dude you should watch Luigi hype moments in smash

[@Ricardohaylock]

Donkye kong has always been underrated in melee, he genuinenly is a solid character and doesnt deserve to be considered low tier anymore at this point (imo he should be ranked above luigi but below dr mario)

[@Skullmiser]

Talking about the downsides of Luigi's very low traction made me feel better about Link.

[@glauciarochelle]

why Sakurai make luigi super jump punch only going up and not go for others directions

[@alanmoreno2482]

TAS makes Every Character look Top Tier.

[@pockitsune6347]

Pretty cool sponsor

[@EndrrNobody]

Could you do a video (could just be a short) covering knuckles in P+ and cover his good and bad qualities? If you haven’t already.

[@ZachHonest]

I have, check the backlog

[@EndrrNobody]

@@ZachHonest ok thank you!

[@YURTZYN42]

Luigi & Ganon are quite similar in that they're both simple and hard hitting characters with a lot of promise when you start out, but as ppl know the MU more and more you will find these two have very crippling limitations that just keep them pinned where they are. YL is a low tier imo. Unlike Link, YL cannot scrap, has a worse recovery and relies on having to p much run away and toss projectiles all day. I think he can be ok vs a Falco by being annoying for Falco to chase, but once Falco catches him its a wrap, so thats just me being generous. This whole "YL foing well vs floaties" is bs cuz ok sure you're DEFINITELY going to land bomb into dair combos past 100% on floaties 4 times in a game feasibly... No, YL needs to setup edgeguards to get efficient kills. DK ehhhhhh, DK is pretty solid. Amazing edgeguards and good range to boot along with ok recovery and decent mobility. The problem is he gets revenge killed stupid easily due to his terrible shield.. You're going to be very hard pressed to maintain any real advantage after taking stocks when ur opponent just respawns and uses that invincibility to score a quick kill cuz DK is such a big target yelling SHIELD POKE ME! Also DK needs a solid combo game to work, and characters like puff & luigi are going to destroy his ability to rack up damage efficiently. Mario & Doc are both quite respectable and have well rounded tools that give them promise, its just they're not particularly amaxing at anything. Probably the best attribute about them are their chaingrabs, most notably on Sheik, bit good luck even landing grabs with their stubby reach... Still, they tend to hit the wall less hard than Luigi and Ganon, but they just don't have that oomph to em like Luigi and Ganon either. Link is definitely better than YL despite his lower speed. A hood recovery with hookshot and can actually fight and not just throw stuff, his jab is quite pivotal in stopping and mucking up approaches and killer upBs oos demand a level of respect, but he's frikkin combo food man.. Suffers the most chaingrabs of the bunch and his speed ain't helping him get away from being grabbed. If i had to say which of these mid tiers has the most promise, uhhhhhh I'd probably say DK due to how mobile he is while being great at edgeguards. Yeah Puff is really bad but he's got spacies and Marth combos going and can actually kinda camp out vs peach with retreating charge punches to control the pace of the game. DK gets rushed down pretty badly like Link does, but at least he has some level of mobility to have it happen less.

[@Mr.D0rAdE326]

what if mario players find a way to back throw more easily

[@VapodubzSSBM]

DESK

[@Neo095botxplayz]

I made a magical pack just right now 😎

[@EmoryIllustrated]

Oh boy! 1 A.M!

[@ZachHonest]

Lmao, I accidently dropped the video at midnight, but its cool LOL

[@tabley1873]

I think g&w has some of the biggest untapped potential but nobody's gonna pick him up cus of his low reputation. He's basically a sleeper puff

[@bold3166]

Monke power

[@KyokujiFGC]

Amsa already moved DK way up on his latest tier list.

[@densincomprehend8879]

I've seen link players unstoppable

[@00ooo000o]

surely pika + yoshi are still considered mid-tier right?

[@johngold42]

No, they’re considered high tiers and some will call Yoshi a top-tier

[@equinox3861]

no one calls yoshi a top tier lol

[@BrysonMcNeil]

​@@equinox3861the 3 majors he won bed to differ

[@equinox3861]

The 3 majors that aMSa won and the major drop drop off between aMSa and the next highest ranked Yoshi main nod their head in agreement that aMSa is incredibly good with a mediocre character.

[@ExiledOne]

Quickest answer to the mid tier problem is this, Yesn’t they have hope.

[@ediot1426]

Just change like 3 lines of code on gnw and hes a high tier

[@RuneTacticss]

Yeah, Roy definitely has hope-oh right....Not mid tier...

[@J0J0Jetz]

Do melees mid tiers****

[@ClassicBentobox]

Honestly, Roy is dog water and I could still see someone Zain level winning a tournament with him. I think melee will become more unpredictable as bad tools get optimized in ways god never intended

[@hiphops8082]

A video on melee’s mid tiers not talking about Pikachu and Yoshi being proven viable, how sad

[@ZachHonest]

I consider them "High Tiers"

[@hiphops8082]

⁠@@ZachHonesteven if you personally don’t consider them mid tiers, I think saying “mid tiers in melee are closer to modern day low tiers” and not talking about the multiple mid tiers that have risen through melee’s tier list is an inadequacy of the video. It paints the picture that melee mid tiers have no hope.

[@bigchungus7870]

I think luigi has more potential than mario. He has the best wave dash and best aerial in the game also he has better KO potential than mario.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

This is pretty obvious especially considering that Mario was never actually meant to excel in the ability department like his brother Luigi can. LOL

[@Mr.D0rAdE]

Mario is crazy unviable in Super Smash Brothers melee

[@SiMgUrL1721]

How is Mario unviable in Melee? He's not a Low Tier character in Melee like he is in Brawl at least.

[@aurora_x86]

They does not.

[@aurora_x86]

Aww he changed the title :((

[@sinfinite7516]

Mewtwo deserves to be mid tier

[@nothingnesslol9538]

hour ticket here bozos

[@Pirate_Booty]

I think samus could win a major

[@TheBeggies95]

I think Samus and DK could tbh with some bracket luck