Do Mid-Gen 'Pro' Consoles Diminish The Impact of Next-Gen Hardware?

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[@yobama5288]

We need more quality games not consoles

[@bollao]

But there is a Lot, a I mean A LOT of games to purchase, being announced and launched.

[@yobama5288]

@@bollao You're right. We need more games that are optimized well and are complete at launch. A lot of these games I am not a fan of like rpgs, simulators, and Indies. The games that I was hyped for were a letdown like Jedi Survivor with its performance issues. The only thing I am waiting for is Remedy's next Control game.

[@bollao]

@@yobama5288 indeed. There is a problem with optimization in the industry. Idk wtf is happening cause we have the HW. About Jedi, at least on PS5, the performance is all right now. Btw, i just finished the game

[@alexandrecl4331]

Xbox has more controllers than games lol. They learned nothing from the disaster that was the XB1.

[@bjarnis]

They will just uncap the framerate on older games and re sell them as "next gen version".

[@thatssomegoodpie]

With covid it barely feels like the generation even started. We could easily go with current gen for another 5 years.

[@landontorres1054]

xbox: 2 years and a half, I got it

[@lt6532]

Yepp, a new generation hardly makes any sense at all. Software will be designed for this gen of hardware for a loooong time.

[@josephcox2201]

Ps6 is coming 2028

[@vullord666]

​@@landontorres1054tbf Xbox isn't doing a pro and Phil at least suggested they should get rid of generations. He implied trying to make the console market like Phones but less frequent with a major hardware update every 5 years or so and instead of generations developers just stop supporting X hardware or software version after X amount of time. Not if I'd like it more or less but it'd be interesting to see this strategy compete with PS.

[@langlest]

As someone who just had the base Xbox One & PS4 consoles I really noticed the difference when I got my Series X & PS5, I'll be sticking to this generations base systems too and enjoy any of the pro improvements when the next gen arrives

[@tannermiller3967]

I bought a Xbox One X back in the day and for me personally. It made me feel like the Series X wasn’t that much of an upgrade.

[@jeromefym9548]

@@tannermiller3967the one x is really good with the series x got a better cpu so higher fps but the GPU in the one x was really good

[@Thrashbang]

The answer is yes, when the turnover for hardware is so quick the developers never reach that point to where they’re forced to optimize games to squeeze out as much performance as they can. So now we’re stuck with games that still end up being stunning graphically, but aren’t performing well on current gen systems. While new hardware and rending techniques like dlss/fsr are great, I can’t help but feel like they end up being used as a crutch rather than being utilized to push graphical limits.

[@murray821]

Indeed, those new techniques are being used to skip on optimisation.

[@samcerulean1412]

Developers just aren’t as skilled in optimisation as they used to be or as determined and it’s just a part of the culture/environment they operate in I think. I think these consoles are easier to develop for than the previous generations, but I think DirectX12 is harder to utilise, and developers just aren’t skilled in using it properly unfortunately.

[@facuuaf]

The main thing is that back in the 7th gen you'd get yearly entries or every two years (say 07/09/11/13) and they'd build on top of each other. Now development cycles have doubled, but sequels still don't change that much. I don't see a big difference comparing Horizon 1 to 2, or gow to ragnarok

[@Marcus_K]

Horizon Forbidden West introduced many new features to the series: flying with the Shieldwing glider, underwater swimming, much improved climbing, the Pullcaster, vertical traps, valor surges, the spear resonator blast, new melee combos and manually changing time of day.

[@MaxIronsThird]

Spiderman and Spiderman 2, Gears 4 and Gears 5 as well, they're basically full game sized, stand alone expansions.

[@168original7]

There was a massive difference betweem forza horizon 1 on xbox 360 and 2 on xbox one what are you on about

[@xtr.7662]

​@@168original7hes talking about horizon on ps not forza but still theres a big difference in graphical quality between zero dawn and forbidden west both on ps4

[@xtr.7662]

​@@Marcus_Ktrue forbidden west is so much more fun than the first one too bad the story is worse

[@Starless85]

We still haven’t seen games on this gen hit their stride. Most games on console don’t look or perform as well as Demons Souls, Ratchet and Clank, or Returnal did near launch. Let alone surpass them.

[@barryklinedinst6233]

They need to worry about the future of gaming. Budgets now days are crazy money. People are playing more old games because they are FUN. It's not just about graphics.

[@KBroly]

I don't see how Mid Gen Refreshes extend the general console lifecycle. They could do without those refreshes and still make them 8-10 years.

[@G360LIVE]

Back when Sony announced the PS4 Pro, they said that they found a segment of their PlayStation audience would buy a PS early on but then move over to PC later in the generation. The PS4 Pro was introduced as a way to retain that segment of their audience, to give them the extra hardware power they were seeking. Sony didn't need to sell that many Pro consoles -- they were fine with the OG PS4 outselling it -- but they wanted to give hardware sales numbers a boost, and that is what extends the lifecycle of the console since the next gen hardware is targeted to launch as current gen hardware sales begin to fall. That said, I do agree with you that the mid-gen refreshes aren't needed. A new model of the current hardware combined with a price cut has always been good for extending a console's lifecycle. I'm not sure they can do permanent price cuts anymore, though, only drop the price during sales.

[@johnjohnson7743]

I think there’s actually an element of adding to the next gen, having ps4 pro versions of games running in back compat rather than ps4 amateur is a benefit to the ps5. Thus moving to the ps6 the ps5 pro versions of these will assumedly run similarly, so even if you don’t buy a ps5 pro you may still benefit from it.

[@realmatic10]

Yeah, but won’t most of what you just described be fixed by an uncapped FR and PSSR? I think it’s pretty obvious that the refreshes are diminishing the hardware, by dragging the Xgen period on forever.

[@JavedAlam24]

True dat!

[@JavedAlam24]

@@realmatic10 Depends if the games implement it though. Most PS4 games didn't, and it required the devs to manually do it, so it was the PS4 Pro enhanced games that look and run the best on the ps5.

[@bmw1175]

@@realmatic10how are the dragging it on? The life cycles of consoles hasn’t really changed.

[@naumankhan422]

​@@realmatic10Hardware based PSSR in PS5pro can be used to build up on PS6 and Sony can't be late to the party because they are after all a hardware company first.

[@montygill2835]

The Running man in the background 😂

[@tashriquekarriem8865]

Good spot 😂

[@tinyrogerts6449]

*"HEY, KILLIAN!"*

[@M.W.H.]

A man of culture.

[@TheHOOfan1]

I came to the comments looking for this, but didn't expect it to be the top comment.

[@alanlindsay8310]

Could be that a new adaption of the story was greenlit today with Edgar Wright directing?? Perhaps.....

[@ruialex314]

Having just beat horizon forbidden west burning shores I find it hard to believe we need a new console…I’m sure they can squeeze so much more out of the ps5 and Xbox series x

[@naumankhan422]

We are gonna have a longer cross gen period with PS6 . So at least PS5 will be relevant till 2030

[@chillnspace777]

​@@naumankhan422ya probably 😂

[@youtubeaccount7544]

Lmao dude said PS5 will be relevant until 2030. 😂

[@gamingedition5165]

​@@youtubeaccount7544 it's true? PS4 only last year stopped getting serious releases lmao 10 years after it's initial release.

[@craigsampson3386]

​@gamingedition5165 unless we get another global pandemic again, I really don't see cross gen sticking around as long as it has this time.

[@MelissaAtwell]

I agree, I dislike the mid-gen ‘pro’ consoles. Since game development DOES take longer, shouldn’t we stick with the same hardware for the duration, letting developers improve their skills on that platform? Otherwise, developers have to come to grips with YET ANOTHER platform mid-cycle, splitting their resources / workload / testing. I just don’t think it makes sense.

[@lt6532]

No. One premium/Pro model in each generation hardly affects development time/cost at all. Especially not since the Pro hardware is carefully designed to have minimum impact on development. If it did, development for PC would be totally impossible...

[@dante19890]

the same hardware will still be targeted as base spec. No one is gonna make a game exclusively for the ps5 pro spec

[@KevinniveK2112]

The Running Man playing on the screen behind John is classic!

[@sunnywagle8995]

Switch has a hardware that is weaker than my phone but, just look at the game library. Enough said!! If MS and Sony really want to play with our FOMO by building a mid-gen pro model for every generation, then we as a consumer should also consider only the "pro" models as an actual generational leap and there is no need for us to buy the first iteration (non pro model) of a generation. We should rather only buy pro models for each generation, enjoy the cross gen games for the first 2-3 years after the launch of first iteration of a next generation and then buy the pro model when that comes out.

[@weekendtrailerparksupervis3216]

👍🏽

[@williammangus5526]

Facts about the switch even though I hate it

[@wc999]

so true nintendo is really delivering with their titles sony and xbox barely have more than 10 exclusives worth talking about.. hell maybe even only 5 each...

[@COOLFRIEND]

The problems we are seeing with games are not due to hardware, but in most cases, poor optimization from the substandard programmers that have permeated the entire AAA industry.

[@CheckmateStallioN]

If Demon Souls remake and Ratchet & Cank RA are anything to go by you are partially correct. A PS5 should only be used for exclusives that are fully optimized and not multiplats. If you want to play multiplats this is what PC is for. This is why a "pro" is really not needed if you play multiplats on PC bc the 1st party and some 3rd party exclusives are already well optimized for the vanilla hardware. For those playing multiplats on ps5 absolutely they need a pro if they don't want to move to PC for those.

[@sermerlin1]

But is it even the programmers? Or perhaps corporations rushing things as well as poor managing skills failing to adequately lead the team and the scope of work? Everyone wants a piece of the gaming pie now and they are just want the biggest blockbusters and always bite more then they can chew. I wouldn't say it's substandard programmers like at all. You either know how to program or you don't. There is no "substandard". You either are capable of programming instruction set or you aren't and it's obvious on the tests you do before you can even sign a contract. Also don't make me start on management betting on post launch patching because it's cheaper that way and easier. Drop half baked game recoup development cost and profit some then release promise game will be patched up so more will buy the game over time with skeleton crew patching up the game while the rest of the team works on something else. There are a lot of reasons why games are as they are but one thing I completely agree on... It is not the hardware. Especially PS5 hardware for example. it's way more then capable of doing 60 fps with decent visuals. It's just the way the games are being treated as of late. I just wonder how many times developers were shut down with amazing ideas just because it's "not worth the resources" A.K.A. "we want to low ball it as much as possible with resources, just bare bones". PS: I'm actually not against mid gen pro upgrades. I'm actually heavily favoring it as it pushes the generation to its maximum what is capable of before diving into the next generation.

[@arfarfarf256]

​@Living_L393nd well I'm not going to buy a ps5 AND a pc. I just want the convenient box.

[@MichaelJamesonofgoogle]

​@@CheckmateStallioN multiplats run fine on PS5 and Series X

[@CheckmateStallioN]

@@MichaelJamesonofgoogle not the most recent ones in UE5

[@Skylarlateef_guitar]

Currently have a Series X and Steam Deck and since getting my SD OLED it’s convinced me to just save for a top end PC by the time next gen consoles release.

[@noodles9345]

The deity welcomes you with open arms. Let thou embrace thee and enjoy your awakening.

[@darrenwalker2003]

And kiss goodbye to your wallet, mind you I can’t talk I’m a handheld freak and have them all.

[@xtr.7662]

​@@darrenwalker2003its not that expensive and games are cheaper as well

[@zeohblitz6969]

This is probably the main reason xbox is investing in pc. The companies who have invested and secure their ecosystem and library to be available in a wide array of device will be the winners. Play anywhere, with anyone and carry over progress and achievements

[@fionnmaccuill415]

PC gaming is a nightmare at the minute. Games are ridiculously unoptimised, micro stutter due to shader compilation is an issue too. It’s great to build and have one but just keep that in mind

[@OnlineTuba]

I love that the running man is on in the background.

[@jbway86]

John is a showoff lol

[@OPDR1P]

The point made about hardware advancing slower is so real. It doesn’t happen anymore without large jumps in power consumption ( look at what high end cpus and high end gpus consume anymore) and one of the main limiting factor with console hardware is power consumption/heat . This is apparent as the ps5 pro will not be able to run the full cpu+gpu boost simultaneously, it has to switch between one or the other

[@user-sp8fi2zv2v]

Hello Digital Foundry! I have one question. Why do developers often use 1920x2160p resolutions, upscaling them to 4K with checkerboard rendering, if the picture is worse than native 1440p? We've seen it in RDR 2 PS4 Pro, Witcher 3 PS4 Pro and now it's in Dragon's Dogma 2 on consoles. At 1440p there are fewer pixels and less load on the system, but the picture looks better. Wouldn't it make more sense to just make it native 1440p? Plague Tale Requiem at 1440p looks much cleaner and more beautiful than Dragon's Dogma 2 at checkerboard 4K.

[@murdendev]

Because 4K 🤡 (no, seriously)

[@murdendev]

If they didn’t do that how would they market it as “4K capable” (god, PS5 has “8K” written on the BOX)

[@goncaloduarte4683]

It heavily depends on the quality of the checkboarding implementation and its TAA solution. We also need to remember that not all 1440p is made equal, some will have better upscalling tech than others.

[@RpgAddict325]

@@murdendevps5 and Xbox has 8k on the box, which was kind of dumb. Ps5 only has one 8k compatible game and Xbox has none. Overall a bad idea to put on the box.

[@dante19890]

no one really uses checkerboard rendering now, its only exclusive to the ps4 pro

[@cafep2800]

In this generation, we have something that we didn't have in the last one, which is FSR 3. Immortals of Aveum is going to be the first game to receive frame generation on console, and I'm curious to see the results. With frame generation, we could reach 4k60 even in demanding photorealistic games made in UE5, like Hellblade 2 and Marvel 1943. I tested FSR 3 frame gen on PC, and I'm very pleased with the results. I think giving the option to players to choose between 4k30 without frame gen and 4k60 with frame gen will be the best. There's no need for mid gen upgrade.

[@lukemorris9066]

It takes longer to get into a gen now if anything we need longer generations with more power.

[@MaxIronsThird]

so, you're saying we need more expensive consoles?

[@adi6293]

​@@MaxIronsThirdI wouldn't mind that, pay £800 and that's it for next 10 years 😅😅

[@lukemorris9066]

@MaxIronsThird this is the problem u want 4090 preference for £480 ... give us a ps6 with 3080-3090 preference charge £700-£800 even £900 and use it for 10 years because now we're getting hardware for 4 years then it's upgraded then we gotta wait for games to actually use that hardware ... by then there's a new console on the horizon then we have to wait for games to take advantage of that hardware again it just gos round and round.... don't get me wrong the consoles now are a solid deal there basically a 2080 for £480 but ppl still moan all this with hellblade 2 console gamers are on another planet they moan when the consoles don't have preference of high end pc's and they moan at the idea of console with that preference but more costly (obviously) witch do u want lol they moan now at getting 2080 preference for £480 literally wtf lol ... make ps6 a powerhouse and use it here's my money... done.

[@dante19890]

I think they should increase the price of console to make them more powerful from the start, cuz they need to live long

[@lukemorris9066]

@dante19890 there pretty powerful now like I said there basically a 2080 witch is a really solid gpu it's just ppl seem to think there getting a 4090 for £480.... but I'd definitely pay £700 to £900 for a ps6 if they put the power onto it and used it for a long time.

[@Boss_Fight_Wiki_muki_twitch]

The bigger issue is the more specs in any given ecosystem, the more variables hence the more difficult it becomes to make games for that ecosystem.

[@eskimo427]

Running Man - great film!

[@Jughulator]

The problem is that consoles are unexciting and haven't changed or adapt enough to the new necessities of both development and players. PC makes PS5 and Xbox redundant. Their player base will continue to dwindle even further in favor of both PC and smartphones.

[@Simi69]

The worst aspect of a mid gen refresh is the 'new' consoles are basically abandoned as soon as the next gen is released. Why would you buy a mid gen refresh if you're only guaranteed a few years support at most? To be fair both Microsoft and Sony did try to extend support for One X and PS4 Pro into the next gen, but the CPU performance differential to Series X and PS5 was simply too great to overcome. Same thing will happen this time.

[@crobinson2624]

Honestly, I don’t think mid generation upgrades are even necessary. I think console makers just need to work within the limits of the product that they have created.

[@printicewhite]

I just fixed my xboxonex and added a SSD. There is very little appeal to upgrade. Granted I also have a PC and PS5, but for the games that were made with it in mind it's still great.

[@CalvinCrack]

Great discussion

[@Starless85]

Really depends what next gen ends up being. If it’s got a bunch of new tech no, if it’s just another iteration of what we have now maybe a bit.

[@swianr]

The fact that moor's law is dead, wouldn't that make the generation should stay relevant longer ? I mean in the 90's and 2000's we didn't have a mid generation refresh despite the technological advancements were huge in shorter periodes, whereas of now the ps5 should stay relevant for at least 7 to 10 years if the devs knew how to use the hardware effectively, like how the ps4 did, god of war and horizon FW running on a 9 years old console at a good fps and graphics was amazing

[@RiqMoran]

Technology advances independently of consoles. A console is basically just a build, but new/better components come out every year regardless of how often new builds are made. IF a generation jump feels drastic nowadays its bc a console was outdated for a long time and thats not a good thing. Look at nintendo for instance. You need to fall far behind in order to make it feel like youre leaping forward.

[@JLudd]

Yes, simple answer really but also a silly question, it’s like anything, if no console was released for 20 years then the next one would be a huge leap…obviously, that’s like anything, phones, cars or whatever.

[@hassosigbjoernson5738]

... Which makes the leap between PS5 and PS6 the same ... if a Pro exists or not! Because the time in between stays the same.

[@detectiveblutomindpretzel6292]

​@hassosigbjoernson5738 But then nobody is comparing the PS5 to the PS6. They're comparing the PS5 to the PS5 pro and the PS5 pro to the PS6. Hell, why don't we just release a new model every year that barely increases power. Same amount of time right?

[@sanishnaik2040]

Save your time 8:04

[@Wiiillllson151]

This!!!!

[@deterlanglytone]

Honestly, it sounds like we should just make a generation longer.

[@Ieo23]

Then it will perform like switch

[@deterlanglytone]

@@Ieo23 You mean... be very successful? What hardware is used is always going to be a limiting factor, but its up to the developers to realize what they can do with what they have. If Games for the Switch, and I'm talking about games made for the hardware only, don't perform well then that's up to shit programmers more than anything else.

[@sunnywagle8995]

Developers were developing cross gen games until last year due to supply chain issues. Both developers and MS/Sony has a lot to compensate for the patient we kept with them at the start of this generation.

[@QuantumChrist]

​@@Ieo23,meh, Switch has more than 4 Exclusive games that is Banger in the market. Fricking Bangers of games. And ps5 and xbox has how many? Switch longer lifescyle doesn't extended because of Hardware, it's about the games, a continuous flow of amazing games.

[@hihihi1q23]

@@deterlanglytone Switch is a handheld, so people are willing to tolerate worse graphics and lower performance. People won't tolerate games running at 400p at 20fps on PS5.

[@johnjay6370]

I have been saying for 4 years!!!! the Mid gen one x and Pro were amazing and still look good today!!! I have a one X and it still looks amazing and plays games as good or better than the series S!!! so Yes mid gen did!!!

[@destroyermcw626]

I kept my Xbox one X since 2019 and it does still hold up.

[@amiradib1007]

I swapped my internal hdd for an ssd on my one x and have seen such improvements that I have zero reason to upgrade right now.

[@EverythingPS5Pro]

Call of Duty Cold War was an amazing PS5 game, it had all the features on display 4K (shadow raytracing) and ran at 4K 60fps VRR without Raytracing, and ran at 1800p 60fps with Raytracing Shadows on. How the hell are most games running at 720p upscales to 1440p with an unstable fps sometimes with FSR 1 😂

[@seliteguitarist3664]

Depends how far we make the leap from mid gen to next gen. The PS4 pro to ps5 or Xbox one X to series X is a massive leap. I feel like we’re hitting a plateau with what hardware needs to do. Consoles aren’t the issue. Games biting off more than they can chew or focusing more on filling your screen with effects rather than performance is the problem

[@lordspalse0062]

I suggest you confirm the meaning of the word 'Massive ' in the dictionary and stop with the exaggeration.

[@UberDarkGuardian]

I think no. Having the PS4 Pro and X1X had big resolution boosts and mild performance boosts. The PS5 and XSX from that is still huge performance boosts with other quality of life changes. But I think it works because of the hardware. If we had updated PS3 or 360 models for example, the jump to PS4 and X1 would have been tiny, or those consoles would have been more powerful naturally. Which is kind of a shame.

[@EMC_CO86_0_Z]

Can’t wait want Performance and Ray Tracing

[@Kleed44]

That's a great point you made - I totally forgot Naughty Dog didn't have any PS5 new native releases which is INSANE at this point! Thanks for the awesome video guys

[@Luke973T]

Last of us 2 released right at the end of the ps4 and we know how factions 2 turned out.

[@baselinethunder]

I upgraded from an Xbox One S to a One X and that’s been enough really so far. Haven’t seen the need to upgrade to Series X since (if anything would get a PS5 just to try out some different games). I thought the One X was an exciting update at the time but I’m not sure a pro/X this generation will make a massive difference. If I hadn’t got the One X, I’d definitely have a current gen now though..

[@MaxIronsThird]

not that many games are coming out on last gen anymore, Hi-Fi Rush, Starfield, Dragon'sDogma2, BG3, Hellblade2, SpiderMan2, Hogwarts Legacy, Jedi Survivor, Alan Wake2 and even some expansions like Liberty City and Burning Shores are also skipping last gen, even if the base game supports it. Ps: I think most people should get a PC instead of a console.

[@baselinethunder]

@@MaxIronsThird yeah very good point. Part of why I haven’t felt the need to make the jump is also because I haven’t kept up with the latest games either. That will be the tipping point I’m sure!

[@patrickmurphy9470]

Install a SSD and it’ll speed up the One X substantially. Almost on part with current gen. The One X is still a beast.

[@arjun10able]

We need more games with physics. I remember first time playing uncharted 4 in ps4 . Now a days its just graphic without gameplay 🤷

[@mementoa9025]

They do kind of diminish the appeal of next gen hardware, if only because for some games the leaps between "Pro" consoles and next gen consoles no longer feels quite that significant. Like the difference between something like Call of Duty on Xbox One X to PS5 feels minor, and in some cases you can still get a decent enough gaming experience on a last gen console with if you give it an SSD upgrade. The situation with multiplats isn't as dire as it was by the end of the PS3/360 gen, where in some cases you got a heavily compromised game like Black Ops 3/Battlefield 3-Hardline or Forza Horizon 2, or they gave you the full game but it ran terribly. It also comes down to game support, because there were plenty of early/mid-gen games that never got PS4 Pro/X1X patches to this day. And since some studios went through heavy layoffs/closures, paying an extra premium doesn't feel worth it if theres not going to be much guaranteed support.

[@bmw1175]

I’m glad since I didn’t get a ps5. I’m happy to get a pro. Def not extending the life and I’d rather do that especially since it’s so similar it’s not like I’ll have to see if there’s issues as it shouldn’t have any. Probably then wait for a ps6 pro and skip the base version next gen also.

[@ZackSNetwork]

The PS5 Pro GPU is only %45 faster and it has 2x better raytracing. The CPU is exactly the same as the PS5. Also same 16gbs of vram for memory. This is a far smaller leap than PS4 to PS4 Pro.

[@bmw1175]

@@ZackSNetwork and that’s fine by me as I never had a ps5 so I’m going from a ps4 pro to a ps5 pro.

[@Krypterium]

they have to focus on performance with these current Gen consoles instead of Graphics etc,i mean the only issue with previous gen is the pretty slow loading and performance ,they did fix pretty well the loading time this Gen but performance arnt there yet,barely 120fps and not all stable ,even some 60fps not that stable cuz most of the Devs r focusing on graphics

[@paulkinder8440]

Obviously without the mid gen refresh models, from base console to the next generation consoles, you are going to see a greater leap in quality. I personally do not feel we need a mid gen refresh because i don't feel this generation as been maxed out yet. Regarding games taking too long to make, i feel you could scale that back, not every game needs to be triple A looking. If a games good and runs fine then there's no need to have the best graphics possible.

[@stephencroft1612]

i love how gamers seem to always be about “graphics don’t matter as long as the gameplay is good” but they will always jump a game that doesn’t have good graphics just like they recently did with Rise of the Ronin

[@paulkinder8440]

​@stephencroft1612 For me personally I've no problem playing indie games,retro games aswell as double A or Triple A games. So graphics are only a part for me and not the be all and end all. Currently I'm playing Those That Remain on my Series X, which is an indie horror/survival/puzzle game and Klonoa Phantasy Reverie on my PS5 which are remakes of older PS titles, so neither are graphical show pieces.

[@fcukugimmeausername]

I'm going to hold off buying the PS5 Pro and wait for thr PS5 Pro Pro Plus.

[@deebocj]

Looks like Microsoft was ahead of the game with Play Anywhere. 😂 Better to focus on software than hardware.

[@C4rkus]

Another factor is also just all the upscaling technology now especially with AI now, like it's great technology but I feel like game companies are really leaning on it sometimes to get high or stable frame rates instead of optimising, and that's exactly what it sounds like Sony is doing with PS5 Pro to prepare themselves early for PS6 and Microsoft is probably doing that anyway with the next Xbox

[@Ricardo-wd8os]

The current gen was launch in the middle of the pandemic, which severely limited the availability until about a year ago, so, for many gamers, it feels like the current gen just started (me included). Ideally speaking, it would be better this gen to be postponed by a couple of years (2022), so the supply chain issues would not be a problem and anyone interested could get the new machines a few weeks/months after the launch. Of course, this was not possible because a console launch is a multi-year planning effort and mobilize a large ecosystem that cannot wait a global sanitary crisis to be resolved. So, we find ourselves in this bizarre situation, where the base consoles were launched 3 years ago and feels like it has half the age and, as far as we know, Sony has developed PS5 Pro, which lead us to think like "I just bought a brand new gen console. In a few months, it is already outdated?"

[@CNM3]

What diminishes the next Gen hardware is a lack of quality games for said hardware and no next generational leap besides faster load times which has been possible for a long time now on PCs with SSDs from 2011...

[@Reltdeats]

I almost agree with what John says, but it's contradictory. If technology doesn't grow as fast as before, there is less reason to do mid gen upgrades. Let developers extract all the juice with the current machine, as they did with PS3. Mid gen console upgrades add more complexity to the development, even if it is optional, QA should be done in both machines. Its contributing in one way or another to the development time. Generations should be longer in the current state, for 4 years of PS5 games, almost all of them where crossgen games. PS5 is starting to get squeezed now, and I think it could still last 3-4 more years.

[@Sinncere06]

They really want to know if we can speed pass this generation bc a certain brand is not living up to its hype.

[@OppenedDark]

Considering the lack of games that even take advantage of the hardware we already have; it just makes such little sense to release new hardware that's more powerful. What's the point? and when you factor in the fact that most console hardware actually puts these companies in the negative for profit, increasing the volume of hardware releases is just going to mean a higher asking price for future consoles anyway. No one is asking for a more powerful console; we want more games that actually prove these platforms are a worthwhile investment. Getting those consoles replaced every 3-4 years just further diminishes their value.

[@MechAdv]

Since now we have three standard resolution, classes of performance, I think it’s only natural that a mid-gen refresh takes the exact same game and unlocks higher resolution modes or better frame rate. A PlayStation5 struggles to hold 60 FPS at 1080P resolution in many games. Why would you not want the option to upgrade your performance halfway through a console generation as games become more demanding?

[@dave24-73]

Mid gen hardware like the PS Pro, has hurt the industry, as your previous people have commented, it’s game you need, not better hardware. AAA can be quarterly between different studios, but in the gap good budget games are needed. Also game prices are killing the industry. Games are now 30-50% more it’s getting crazy. People are trying to justify it as AAA games take longer, but truth is it’s just corporate greed.

[@FatNorthernBigot]

I dont feel the current generation was a huge leap forward compared to previous generations. Everything feels like we're pushing against the law of diminishing returns, or as my dad used to say "they're trying to skin a fart" 🤣

[@MrRawnch]

At the beginning of the 32-bit era, consoles have always been a compromise of their PC counterpart. The problem plaguing the console industry today is that nobody wants to pay $700 - $1500 for closed hardware that is capable of performing for 7 years. This is why quality console exclusives are so important. *cough* *cough* (Xbox)

[@NiGHTS1980]

PS5 year 4: Still no Naughty Dog. PS6: 1 Spiderman game, 1 God of War game, 1 Horizon game, 1 Ghost of Tsushima game. Generation complete. Rinse and repeat.

[@dante19890]

Naughty dog still trying to learn how ps5 works XD

[@lordspalse0062]

You forgot 7 Fifa and cod games literally indistinguishable from one another. 😀

[@TheFirstRealChewy]

The concept of generations is over and I'd like people to realize this. The PS5 Pro will run games a little better than the PS5 and the PS6 will run games a little better than the PS5 Pro. Everything will be backwards compatible so all that matters is when devs stop supporting a console. We only moved forward from cross-gen games because the platform holders and devs said they were moving forward. However, there is an expectation that all your existing games will work on the new hardware.

[@ffviifakeremake9997]

If they have disc drives then I'll buy it.

[@mhjmstultiens]

Indeed, manpower, knowledge but also creativity. That's what I perceive as a growing limiting factor these days.

[@will891410]

Given the hardware PS5 and SX should have game that look like Horizon FBW at minimum, as a base line measuring the visuals.

[@fcukugimmeausername]

I think the broader issue at hand here is that console generations are effectively over in all but name. What is the PS6 going to be? Just a faster PS5 with a 4080 equivalent AMD GPU, big wow.

[@Ray-dl5mp]

Well that actually would be way better. CPU and GPU is everything now. You gotta run Unreal 5 games and run path tracing ideally. The current consoles are really lacking in comparison to what they could be. But I hope the ps6 gen is a 4090 or better in terms of power. I know that’s very wishful thinking but that’s the game changing line right now.

[@colinbrydon7659]

@@Ray-dl5mpit’s a vicious circle, games will be more demanding so the 4090 in 5 or 6 years will just fell like a 2070 does today. This will never change with consoles.

[@ElectroFunkNinja]

The main thing is if this were talking about PC GPUs no one even bother asking this. I mean is any one asking do Ti editions of GTX GPUs spoiler the next gen? e.g. does the 4090 Ti diminish the 5000 series cards? Ti cards are normally released after the non Ti versions right?

[@tyto3948]

It wasn’t until I got a new tv in preparation for the PS5 that through my PS4 pro, I discovered why higher frame rates matter.

[@D2Kprime]

The XBOX Series X not having any games that show why it's necessary to have it diminishes it's impact.

[@Shehryar89]

If Nintendo Switch can last a decade with Maxwell (2014) GPU tech. Then it means hardware is not an issue. Having said that PS5 & SX are in a weird spot if you look at them technically. They had the leap needed from PS4ONE gen considering pure raster perf., but they skipped on the futuristic features that were available on the PC since 2018 (Geforce 20 Series). 6 years later, today in 2024 these consoles are unable to compete w.r.t. RT & Super Sampling (Look at Alan Wake II). That alone would make a case for a mid gen upgrade (considering overall state of software/ game engines, etc.) Also i do think the Open World genre is an indirect factor for expanding costs and development time for games. KillZone games versus Horizon games from the same studio is an evidence. 2 years cycle (corridor shooter) KZ2 (2009) KZ3 (2011) KZ SF (2013) 5 years gap (open world TP action/ adventure) Horizon Zero Dawn (2017) Horizon II Forbidden West (2022) Horizon III (2027) could be a launch title for PS6 most likely

[@bittyboogaming1653]

Graphics is what makes next gen what it means. We haven't seen next gen graphics on any console yet. Despite all the promises....Maybe Next gen?

[@faves2064]

The Xbox One X was truly a fantastic machine, Rich is right though about it in that it stole some of the Series X's thunder.

[@BlindTrustProject]

No. It just that generational increment will no longer be visible like they used to be. The more power, the more we have diminishing returns effects. Back in the early 90, you just had to have a hardware twice more powerful than the previous to have a generational leap. Now twice more powerful barely absorb an increase in resolution that in itself is not evident to everybody. The only visual game changer that appeared since 2005 Xbox 360 gen is PBR materials and lighting and what can be done in postprocess. Otherwise it's just more of the same on screen with more pixel and more frame (sometimes...). We would need 15 years generations to see a generation leap. It's same for cinema with VFX. Movies VFX would make older movies looks bad every 5 years... Now it's like that since the early 2000 no much as happen that really push boundaries. It's all pretty convincing (exept any other blooper), and we will probably never have a "Jurassic Park" moment again, like we will never have a generation leap like Megadrive/Snes to Playstation...

[@JustJack4268]

I feel like maybe both companies should abandon development for the base systems but continue to develop for the 8th gen pro consoles. The Xbox one x in particular currently trades blows with the series s.

[@jarde1989]

Yes, Next Question

[@BudaiSouls]

That is why there is such a benefit to gaming on the PC , want to play the latest games on max...upgrade your GPU or CPU , don't need to wait for a new console gen to hit the market. I just upgraded my GPU at a $150 cost once I sold my old one , doubled my performance for a slight cost. I have both series x and ps5 , but if i really want to play a game with high framerate and fidelity i just buy it on steam of play it on Xbox PC game pass. I think the consoles are great for 1st party games , most 3rd party games not on gamepass I play on PC , ps5 collects dust

[@sunnywagle8995]

But what about the poor ports that PC gamers have to live with every now and then?? I was a pc gamer from that PS3/360 era till 2021 and one thing that use to bother me is the developer's attitude towards PC port at times. From original RE4 to The Last of Us Part 1, I have multiple examples where developers have indirectly treated PC as a third world platform. And mind you, here I am not talking about bunch of indie games made by fresh graduates in a basement. These are blockbuster AAA titles developed by critically acclaimed renowned studios. This is the only reason I switched to console and my experience has been pretty consistent. With console, there is a performance threshold and I am assured that it will be met 98% of the times. And if incase something goes wrong, then the internet will do what they did with CDPR when Cyberpunk released. Furthermore, as you grow older, nothing beats the plug and play convenience of a console. Tell me one PC that can perform feature like Quick Resume that is available on Xbox Series consoles. It's not just "Ohh, but who the hell switches between multiple games at a time". There have been many instances where I have turned off my Series S in the middle of a game and the game resumed to exact moment where I last left it even though I turned on my console after a month. From day one to this moment, quick resume has never failed to function. PC cannot match such a plug and play convenience at least for now. Consoles have came a long way from what they used to be.

[@BudaiSouls]

@@sunnywagle8995 depends on what you value , i don't value playing Final Fantasy Rebirth on my 4k oled in 720p because my ps5 can't push out enough resolution on next gen games. There are plenty of top notch PC ports

[@SamsNotFunny]

Yeah wouldn't make sense to bring out ps6 this year instead of a pro version with how long it takes to make games and how a lot of people still haven't switched to the ps5 due to lack of games or just cant afford it yet. Its just a shame the ps5 pro doesnt have a better cpu...especially if the price point is the same as current ps5 models or even more

[@KingScotto.]

I love them 7 years is to long to wait 😊

[@carl8790]

To answer that question, not really. What it will do is increase the expectation of the hardware specs of the next gen consoles.

[@Biggerbyte]

I don't know about this, but Sony is ripping people off on the PS5 Pro. The "upgrades" are minimal. Wait on PS6, unless, of course, you are coming from a PS4.

[@apexbear7949]

1:20 - Not sure what is wrong with you John, but you have been making a lot of false and misguided statements lately. To say that there are no longer significant leaps - notably this generation - in terms of HW and technology is such an poorly thought-out statement to make. Ray tracing, full real-time global illumination, geometry virtualization (nanite), and not to mention AI (Think of how impressive Sophy AI is in GT7) are as significant leaps as there have ever been. In terms of facial animation and rendering, Marvel 1943 shows that this generation of HW are capable of finally delivering true to life actor's performance and believability, something that the industry has been chasing for ever. It is true that we haven't seen much yet, but to say that console generations are no longer pertinent because of an alleged lack of significant technological advancement in games is such a poor display of analytical skill. Also the reason we don't see much of these technologies yet has to do with the premature launch of the Gen9 consoles rather than the significant extension of development time. The fact is that fully procedural methods such as Nanite and lumen greatly speed up the production process. You need to think before you talk John. You have become complacent with yourself, and you have sadly become painful to listen to.

[@jackncoke171]

With how lackluster the first half of new console generations have become the pro consoles seem like the better value to wait for, I have PS5 but will probably wait for the PS6 pro.

[@brianmccleary3508]

I love mid generation refresh. I don't see why it has to be a choice.

[@DivineOassis]

Now that dragons dogma 2 has been patched can y’all a Xbox & pa5 (comparison) performance update

[@geelemo]

If we get 4k60 with pro, why do games need a ps6?

[@gamingedition5165]

They could easily raise the pricr of consoles by £100-£200 and increase performance more then we wouldnt need a mid gen refresh at all.

[@willissudweeks1050]

There really is no pure next gen like back in the day. Companies figured out its better to just make 2 versions of games so everyone can buy them.

[@shakengandulf]

Definitely doesn't hurt anyone having a pro console. Gamers that want higher Resolution get it,with some other goodies. Its not going to interfere with game development and people that dont want it aren't forced to buy it. Thats the luxury of choice.

[@federicocatelli8785]

Unbelievable 😱

[@scorchio89]

I say this as someone who has gamed since the late 80's who now has way more disposable income that I did as a kid playing on a NES, I hate the mid gen cycle. Mid-Gen consoles exist for shareholders. It has nothing to do with the consumer experience or AAA(A) game development. What's worse is that it has killed the golden later years of a console generation where devs would push hardware beyond anything we imaged at the start. Nobody is a winner especially when, 4 years on, the current gen still hasn't delivered ... and now we need to update? How about no.

[@glenn3646]

Yes

[@Keytap15]

I don’t see a problem with mid gen refreshes. It’s no different than buying a new flagship phone every 2 years, or upgrading your GPU every other cycle. No need to complain as it doesn’t keep you from playing on base hardware.

[@Max-uv8le]

I'm getting a pc next

[@DeadPiixxel]

Nice

[@eliadbu]

The fact is hardware is becoming more expensive, newer nodes are prohibitively expensive - look at TSMC N3 - already in production and just apple use it (maybe other also use it in small quantities) and their premium prices can accommodate the cost, next gen CPUs and GPUs are projected to use N4 process (same as this generation CPUs/GPUs). If you are shortening the gen to gen time you will either give much smaller performance improvement or increase the price significantly for the expected gen on gen improvement. So in a sense keeping 8 year release cadence makes sense, the pro machines are give mid gen opportunity for higher refresh rate, higher resolutions and higher image fidelity. As long as devs are making the game optimized enough or based machine you should not care too much about the existence of mid gen upgrades.

[@yourworldgaming]

At the end of the day 3/4 years I would want higher performance. So a pro version I’m all in.

[@nickhoward2694]

Considering the potential CPU limitations, do you think the PS5 Pro will be able to able to consistently deliver 1440p resolution at 60 frames per second (performance mode) on all AAA games? That’s all I ask!

[@MaxIronsThird]

if GTA is CPU bound on the PS5, like Baldurs Gate 3, Dragon's Dogma 2 and Starfield, then there will be no 60fps GTA6 on PS5Pro, at most there will be a 40fps mode that won't be stable.

[@nickhoward2694]

@@MaxIronsThird Thanks. Even at 1440p?!

[@xtr.7662]

Any game thats cpu limited on ps5 at 30fps like dd2 will remain at that however games like ff6 or immortals of aveum that are gpu limited and dont hit 60fps consistently will be able on pro however at resolutions below 1080p

[@MaxIronsThird]

@@nickhoward2694 resolution doesn't matter for CPU performance

[@Sinuev1]

IMO, Mid-Gen refreshes don't diminish consoles. They're pretty much necessary to keep up with PC - now that everything is just x86. What diminishes consoles is everything being x86, so porting across all platforms to maximize sales is standard practice. What few exclusives these consoles do have, typically bloated AAA titles, are unsustainable on typical console hardware sales and have to be ported over to PC as well. So there's really no reason to even buy a console at this point unless you have no impulse control. Saving just a bit more than the cost of a console and a mid-gen refresh will build you a PC that will last the entire generation - and the money you save via sales on third party sites as well as not having a ton of service fees over the lifetime of the hardware make PC at the very least competitively priced - if not cheaper in the long term. Might be a bit of a hot take, but the industry was in a much healthier state back in the 6th generation where hardware was radically different between manufacturers, ports were rare, and each system had something unique to offer, first & second party AA thrived as a means to fill gaps in console libraries, and competition was much more fierce. Yeah, it was a lot more expensive for the consumer to have to buy every single system just to get the best of what a generation could provide - but you could always stick to one brand and fanboy until you believe it's the superior system, and the value you got for your money was off the charts.

[@S5000Krad]

Just be the base guy or the pro guy. That way, you always get the biggest leap. Or even wait for 2 console cycles to end, and then get a console, filled with a bunch of old ass games that are finally optimized.

[@MrSodium271]

Yes they do

[@zCopyCatz]

This is the generation of actually playing games on your backlogs, and trying double A and indie titles.

[@DGFTardin]

I think they do

[@michaelbarnes9699]

I miss the days when people played games instead of constantly whining and complaining about games. We are spoiled with current generation games/consoles.

[@hababacon]

I don't mind mid gen refresh if I'm being honest. Especially since we've seen the last two console generation maintain support for 8 years. I think there's still XB1 games coming out, the original came out over a decade ago. I hate upscaling, it has made dev lazy as they use crap tech (they all have problems, when you spot it, hard to ignore) as they use TAA Injection, FSR, or their own tech to produce higher resolutions. I was ok with this when the high resolutions were 4K, but now quality mode is frigging 1440P? A mode that already looks soft and they you playing in that mode, often times upscaled from 1080P to 1440P. Or, especially with UE5, sub 1080P internal resolutions for 60 FPS. Sorry, but no way in the hell I'm playing 1080P or lower at 60 FPS. Flat out garbage, so it takes a mid gen refresh just to get back to 4K30, and 1440P 60, I'm all for it.