Do We Have Free Will? - Salvation - w/Chris Date (Part 2)

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

The topic of "Bondage of Will" has intensely and perfectly been described by Martin Luther. We definitely have NO "free will" as natural born sinners in regards to spiritual re-connection with God. We may choose our food or clothes or which profession we take but we CANNOT reconcile with GOD out of our own will like "taking a decision to obey God and connect spiritually" which is already core of John 1:13. 🙏

[@mrb532]

I wish reformers would just embrace the concept of us being puppets. We are slaves to our desires and our desires are wicked until God regenerates us.

[@ZachFish-]

How does God hold people in the OT accountable and condemn them for their lack of faith if faith isn’t something they can change/achieve?

[@Shardalon]

I am struggling mightily to not be rude but this was mind blowing in a bad way. Bro says in one breath he believes in determinism and in the next says we aren't puppets. And that whole thing with Frodo. My guy, Frodo makes that choice only and because the author wrote it out. He has no thought His creator doesn't actively put in his head. He isn't a puppet he's a robot.

[@theidolbabblerthedailydose33]

I had the same thought regarding Frodo. Frodo does whatever the author’s script says that he will do. The Bible, however, does not describe that we will be judged by what God had scripted, but instead by what He recorded. That’s why I’m no longer “reformed.”

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

​@@theidolbabblerthedailydose33Psalm 139:16 "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; *and in THY BOOK all my members were WRITTEN, which in continuance were FASHIONED, when as yet there was none of them."* That's exactly what the "author" God does, with EACH of His human creatures.

[@theidolbabblerthedailydose33]

@@Corinna_Schuett_GER Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all my days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began. All of David’s days were planned, just as the length of everyone’s days throughout history are determined by God: Acts 17:26 From one man He has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. But, as for how each day plays out? The very next verse explains why God did such: Acts 17:27 He did this so they MIGHT seek God, and PERHAPS they MIGHT reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

@@theidolbabblerthedailydose33 So you REALLY think God wouldn't know about the "perhaps" and "might" if He's actually the ONLY one to CREATE a human and ORDAIN them to believe (or not)? Proverbs 16:4 tells another FACT about God.

[@theidolbabblerthedailydose33]

@@Corinna_Schuett_GER God determines our steps, not the authorship of our plans/choices which occur during those pre-determined days that we just talked about: Proverbs 16:9 (HCSB) A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD determines his steps. We have different intentions than God does… Isaiah 55:8 (HCSB) “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not My ways.” This is the LORD’S declaration. Even though we are the author of our plans, God has the final say as to whether or not our plans/choices happen/actualize beyond our imagination (that’s an example of His sovereignty). But, they are still ours… not His. That is why Jesus warns about our thought life… Matthew 5:27-28 (HCSB) “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Examples of how our plans are not God’s… Jeremiah 32:35 (HCSB) They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech - something I had not commanded them. I had never entertained the thought that they do this detestable act causing Judah to sin! Habakkuk 1:6-7 (HCSB) Look! I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter, impetuous nation that marches across the earth’s open spaces to seize territories not its own. They are fierce and terrifying; their views of justice and sovereignty stem from themselves. God does know it all in real time: Psalms 44:21b …He knows the secrets of the heart? Psalms 139:2b You know when I sit down and when I stand up; You understand my thoughts from far away. And, He decides what goes down (which plans actually take place or not), yet our thought life is still evaluated by Him for what we think up, regardless if He allows such to happen or not. Again, the same point… Proverbs 19:21 (HCSB) Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’S decree will prevail. All this lines up perfectly with the verse that you cited: Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose - even the wicked for the day of disaster.

[@goattygoat9489]

As a Calvinist why even have the need to preach the gospel far and wide as it states in the scriptures when the saved are predetermined?

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

This question is a no-brainer in fact: Only God knows who is elect so naturally we do preach to EVERYBODY around.

[@gracealone89]

@@Corinna_Schuett_GER God doesn’t predetermine or choose who will be saved. You have a BIG misunderstanding. God CHOSE before the foundation of the world to SAVE ANYONE who puts their trust in Jesus as their savior. He knows who will choose him and who won’t choose him, because he’s all knowing, but he gives us a choice. It sounds similar but it’s actually a huge difference.

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

@@gracealone89 Where do I begin, read John 1:13; 3:7-8; 6:44; 15:16; Romans 8:29-30 and chapter 9; Ephesians 1:4-7 there's actually almost no end to clear scriptures on the topic of election and predestination and how GOD does it all, not men.

[@Luvurenemy]

If you’re a Calvinist how do you know you’re saved?

[@stevendrumm4957]

The same way that a non-Calvinist knows that he/she is saved. I had a dramatic born again experience when I was 22 (almost 23) years old. Like Chris Date, I struggled with Calvinism (or divine election, which is what I called it at the time) at first, because it didn't seem fair. However, 10 months after my spiritual birth (and after reading Wayne Grudem's 1994 book "Systematic Theology" and studying the scriptures diligently) I became convinced that Calvinism is indeed the correct soterioology. That was more than 26 years ago. I haven't wavered on my Calvinism ever since then. It clearly is taught in scriptures. The reason why more Christians don't believe it is because they don't want to believe it.

[@Landis_Grant]

The P in TUILIP says if you persevere until the end, you know you’re saved.

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

​@@Landis_GrantOnce again, the "P" of perseverance is NOT man-made but effected BY GOD. Heb 12:2: "Looking unto *JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH;* who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

[@Landis_Grant]

@@Corinna_Schuett_GER Quite a few well respected learned Christians have said, “Calvinists say they were saved by grace through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ, however they then backload “works” by way of the P in perseverance to the end as an assurance that they’re truly saved.”

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

@@Landis_Grant I for my part don't. I definitely KNOW that I would not be able to endure without the LORD Jesus Christ make me to. Philippians 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, *that HE WHICH hath BEGUN a good work in you WILL PERFORM it* until the day of Jesus Christ:"

[@thereddoor4586]

Why would God only choose to draw certain people? We are all sinners, why would God not try to draw all people and then it’s up to us to come when called. The argument still seems like it is all pre-determined (not free will)

[@Luvurenemy]

On the sheep analogy in John 10:16 Jesus refers to his sheep as the Jews and the other sheep not of his Jewish flock as Gentiles. Here’s the passage…”And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.” So the analogy Jesus uses as far as two different flocks is Jews versus Gentiles. The context of Second Temple Judaism would reinforce this Jew versus Gentile understanding of the analogy. Not elect versus damned to Hell before the beginning of time for no apparent reason.

[@stevendrumm4957]

I am a 4.5 point Calvinist. Or a 5.5 point Calvinist on Chris's scale. In terms of the L in TULIP, I believe that in a sense Jesus died for everybody, and in another sense Jesus died only for the Elect. I believe that the scriptures clearly teach both.

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

I do believe our God is quite "economical" in the sense of like, when setting up the plates and chairs for the great wedding banquet, there won't be any free chairs left but prepared for the EXACT number of invited saints. 😉

[@gracealone89]

That makes no sense. How do you interpret John 3:16? Whosoever means whosoever. Anyone. All people are included. Not just certain individuals. Jesus died for all people. To try to say that Jesus only died for a certain number of people, when the scriptures clearly teach otherwise, is honestly quite laughable. It actually blows my mind how anyone can believe in “limited atonement.”

[@stevendrumm4957]

@@gracealone89 Whosoever is not in the original Greek text. Also, Jesus says "I lay down my life for MY sheep". A verse in Luke it says "A savior will be born who WILL SAVE his people from their sins". Elsewhere in the gospels it says that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many. Notice how it says many (not all).

[@tinywest1480]

i want to share this yous my brothers and sisters. THE HEAVENLY FATHER'S TESTIMONY IN THE EARTH OF HIS ONE AND ONLY SON OUR LORD YESHUA HIS BLOOD ON THE MERCY SEAT THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WATCH RON WYATT DISCOVERIES AND A ROOD AWAKENING MICHAEL ROOD PROGRAMS AND DISCOVERING THE JEWISH JESUS PROGRAMS MAY THE HEAVENLY FATHER AND OUR LORD YESHUA BLESS YOU ALL AND BRING YOU INTO ALL TRUTH i love you you all Love and SHALOM EVERYONE be BLESSED

[@matthewmencel5978]

if Theistic Determinism is true, then God is the one that CAUSES you to actually do whatever you do!.

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

If you act according to Gods will He will make you act so He is the CAUSE by the Holy Spirit leading your actions. Otherwise it's your FLESH acting AGAINST His will but God still considers it by foreknowledge what you do.

[@ZachFish-]

@@Corinna_Schuett_GERSo you were created and determined to constantly oppose God, all of your actions were written on a script by God, only God can set give you the ability to follow him, even then I’d assume you’d still be controlled by him. I don’t see that at all in reality or in the Bible (talking about determinism, as Chris Date somehow ascribes to).

[@Corinna_Schuett_GER]

@@ZachFish- I wasn't "created" that way by God but through my genetic inheritance from Adam who fell in sin AFTER being created perfect I am determined to hell if God wouldn't have made me be born again in His Spirit. Gen 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own (!) likeness, after his (FALLEN!) image; and called his name Seth:"

[@xrpgambler565]

Does anyone know why he doesn't post anymore? Is he ok?

[@stevendrumm4957]

What is a progressive creationist? And I don't know how somebody can believe in macro-evolution and remain faithful to the scriptures. Certainly both the YEC and the OEC positions are acceptable (I used to be a YEC but now I am an OEC, but I am not 100% sure). On some things like Calvinism and not celebrating Christmas and Easter and other holidays due to the fact that they are pagan I due indeed have a strong conviction.

[@matthewmencel5978]

Progressive Creationism is the view that God created the variety of life form million of forms.. Progressive Creationism reject Macro-Evolution.

[@flight007keith2]

Roman's 5:18, "so then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind." Just throwing this out there, if we were all condemned through Adam, then we are ALL justified through Christ. So we are all saved. It is our chosing to walk away that separates us from God.

[@lettheriver]

To accept, take up your cross and follow Jesus.

[@Keepcalmcalvin]

Calvinism is wrong...

[@PhilGeissler]

I despise Calvinism with every fiber of my being! It is completely in error.

[@unclepauliestl]

This guy is clearly a calvanist or leans that way.