Do You Even NEED Khatra? | Asiatic Archery

If not every style uses khatra, why even use it? When do you use it, and when do you not need to?
Bow: Toparchery Turkish (courtesy hunting-door.com)
Arrows: Alibow Carbon
Thumb Ring: Vermil Victory
Shirt: Maydaan Archery Club Australia
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Twitter: / nu_sensei
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[@wewemanicn]

I've shot a lot of different styles of Asiatic bows and my take away on Khatra is; Do what the bow wants to do. Some bows like torque, some bows like side and down, some bows don't want to move at all. Don't force Khatra, Feels the vibration after the bows shoots and follow through with that. You'll have cleaner shots and you can hear the difference since the arrow won't scratch the bow

[@puckerbutton7025]

Wife won't let you get more arrows? KHATRA!

[@HandyL]

I love the edits with Khatra being the answer to everything LOL! Very nicely done and very funny!

[@RoyMcAvoy]

Your morning coffee tastes bad? KHATRA! 😂😂☺️

[@HandyL]

@@RoyMcAvoy 😆😁👍

[@firdausabdrahman7039]

@@RoyMcAvoy 🤣🤣🤣

[@ryddragyn]

I've found that I don't need it at all anymore, most of my arrow flight issues with thumb draw in the past were simply a matter of a plucked release. Relaxing the thumb and letting the proximal joint be unbent (much like how the back of the hand is flat for 3 fingers) was a big step forward.

[@pyramid_scheme_termination3655]

I’m assuming you use weak spine arrow?

[@ryddragyn]

@@pyramid_scheme_termination3655 They'd be considered stiff by most people's standards. If I need to adjust technique to compensate for spine in any way, I do it with subtle changes to draw length.

[@randomcdude4430]

This reminds me of the discussions about high/extreme FOC in the hunting archery world. Problem to be solved is penetration of heavy hide and potentially bone. One part of the solution to that problem is FOC, but it is not the only factor in that solution or the most important it would seem ("perfect" arrow flight might win that crown). Great video.

[@BadHonkyTonks]

Great to see you demonstrating the need to look deeper into any situation. Great life skill.

[@galileopotato167]

My understanding of khatra is that it's simply an artistic ottoman follow-through of torque, whereas torque alone is the movement of the bow out of the way for improved clearance of the arrow. It is for this reason that khatra is technically unnecessary in of itself, but torque is necessary for shooting from the outside of the bow. You hit the nail on the head toward the end of the video there. Good video. Thanks Nu.

[@everythingisalllies2141]

if you frame by frame view a slow motion video of the archers bow hand while doing khatra, the bow hand has not even started moving before the arrow is long gone. You have to actually be moving your bow hand when you release, to get the bow out of the way, but then that will surely affect your "aim".

[@sundaysamurai6865]

i had to learn thumb technique by watching youtube tutorials. there are so many things to consider so i decided to not focus on khatra at all even though many people say its important. i just give a little bit of tension to my bow hand at draw and let the bow do what it naturally want to do after release. it always felt good and accuracy was consistent but in my head i was concerned to do something wrong because everyone talks about how important khatra is. now i can free my mind from this worries. thank you for this video!

[@vfc1860]

You are a very wise man for your age. Keep it up.

[@davitxenko]

Well, in my case khatra happens naturally. Of course it isnt that exagerated movement, it is just a small side movement.

[@ehisey]

Probably not khatra then. There is a natural tendency to move the hand open slightly when you have good expansion.

[@Dovah47]

I have a similar bow to yours from Toparchery, Really nice shooter but kicks like a mule (40lbs). I've recently bought Korean bow from Freddie Archery and it is a 10 fold improvement over the Toparchery one, although I was always scratching my bowhand no matter how high i nocked the arrow, but then I researched and practiced korean style of shooting and doing it solved my problem, especially applying sideways torque to the bow that resulted in "passive" khatra.

[@patriciaconde]

I recently started learning Kyudo and this video has helped me a lot to understand why we twist the bow! Thank you :)

[@ianchan8859]

I

[@cornholio1612]

I can vouch for the inconsistent arrows. Made up a batch from wild rose shoots, all different spines and weights. Without khatra they group like buckshot. With khatra, they're not going to win any matches, but they group adequately enought to put each shot in the vitals for hunting hunting

[@BrothireStrangLuve]

Do I need khatra? Well, I can't imagine life without khatra and I can't imagine shooting without khatra. I do khatra because it gives me a reason to get out of bed every morning and it gives my live meaning, so yeah....I admit it...I NEED khatra.

[@SBryck]

You need Armin Hirmir Nusensei 🤣🤣. Seriously though you and him are my go to sources for Asiatic archery topics and reviews. Thank you for breaking down and simplifying many new topics for me and everyone else. The two of you are amazing teachers and advisors

[@kairosmvr1900]

Medieval II reference???? Nice

[@greybeardedition]

Happy to see another "Nu" video! :)

[@rogerfarrow8650]

Thank you, that was really comforting

[@dragoscoco2173]

Forward Khatra seems to come more from mounted archery traditions where normal shooting would easily smack the lower limb into your trusty horses head.

[@ambidextrousarchery]

Excellent messages about using what works for you with your bow.

[@suunraze]

For me, any kind of conscious bow hand torque or movement was never helpful, but I noticed huge improvements when focusing on back tension and expanding release.

[@stefanhansen5882]

Absolutely amazing video! This was super enlightening!

[@musthaf9]

Very good take on this issue. Reminds me of when I try forward khatra and it was completely useless for me, whereas side khatra works wonders (Korean bow with likely over-spined arrows)

[@gizmonomono]

Sounds reasonable. I like a bit of side khatra it helps me out a lot. But I've never had any advantage from a purely forward khatra, though. Didn't need it I guess 😁

[@davewebster6945]

I think your slo mo video at the start was the telling thing about khatra as your arrow was away past and beyond the bow and string before khatra was performed. I think as you said that with modern bow materials being so efficient that a deliberate khatra motion cant have any affect at all, the bow is just too fast and arrow is gone before it can be performed, and any bad arrow flight is because of badly performed release or collapse etc. I am new to thumb release and using a korean bow and cannot for the life of me find time during release for khatra to be anything but a pointless motion 🤔. I do believe that sideways motion of the bow hand does occur naturally when the loose is done correctly and the arrow leaves quietly and straight. PS Its good to see you back doing vids again 🙏👍.

[@markswanson3337]

Well done and well thought through. Very good thought that a particular practice is designed to solve a problem. Kind of goes along with a dictum of mine .. " Purpose dictates Design .. Design reveals Purpose". I guess my thought here is when I've watched slow-motion videos of shooting with and without khatra .. basically the arrow is gone before any movement of the bow is made. The bow for the most part is stationary, arrow goes bye bye in an instant .. then any exaggerated recoil khatra movement takes place , displacing the left over energy in the bow. It makes me wonder how much effect of arrow flight is really taking place ? Khatra, at times does seem to make a difference, and at other times comes across as nothing more than a "cool factor" follow through. For me the jury is still out.

[@elee9056]

i used to think that way. then i watched a slow mo video of a korean archer and the bow definitely moved before the arrow left. they actually shoot arrows with plastic vanes instead of feathers. off their hand too. ive started shooting that way and now i too can shoot plastic vaned arrows without cutting my hand. eventually went even further by shooting 300 spine bare shafts down 20 yd range with a 40 lb bow. wayyy over spined. still managed to stick them perpendicular to the target. so yeah khatra can definitely help. but i dont think its a mystical solution for everything and people give wayyyy too much credit. its not gonna give extra 30 fps or an over night solution.

[@jake4194]

I use Khatra when shooting my horsebows as more of a follow through, it reduces the shock of the shot.

[@RedmarKerkhof]

So basically, "use khatra" is the "install gentoo" of archery.

[@mahpgnaohhnim]

i use arch btw 😂

[@Darkendragon]

This would really help with all types of teaching. its best to teach the problem first than teach the solution because then the solution would make more sense to the student. I wish more teachers taught this way, instead of just the whole mentality of "do what I say because I said so".

[@ARTCHILD]

Ha! I have the same Bow, in black and gold.

[@Kersich86]

the whole kathra argument exists only because there is people that can do it and people that cant. it is not just about flinging your bow.

[@UTxTheArchangel]

At the end of the day what matters is did you get the arrow from bow to target cleanly and accurately...Doesn't matter how you got it, rather you shot it 3 under, 2 finger split, Comanche, pinch, mediterranean, Slavic, double hook thumb draw, or single hook. Rather you used Khatra or didn't. Were you able to get the arrow from the bow to target with no problems, including physical.

[@ryddragyn]

At heavy weights it isn't always effective, given how the bow more forcefully resists being torqued, and thus the archer's ability to torque is reduced (unless you have superhuman grip strength). The grip basically self-corrects itself to a neutral position before release. Same reason why some Med draw archers really prefer heavy Hill-style longbows, because they mitigate variations in grip, taking some of the human error out of the equation.

[@everythingisalllies2141]

slow motion video of the archers, show that the arrow has already left the bow by the tine the archer has had the time to apply khatra. So in my opinion, khatra is just allowing the archer to shoot with a full body involvement in the process, as opposed to being stiff. Thus seems to make a big difference to the release, and to the accuracy when shooting totally instinctively. By instinctive, I mean not consciously observing the arrow or bow hand at all. Just extreme concentration on the smallest part of the target. Bad release causes a poor arrow flight.

[@infinity345]

Absolutely spot on with needing to identify whether you have a problem, or what it even is, before trying to apply a solution. As for high speed cameras, I’ve found that with a mobile phone camera, 240fps slow motion is enough to see whether you’re getting arrow deflection off the bow. You don’t need a long distance either. As close as 3-5 metres is enough to see that sort of deflection.

[@peterxyz3541]

I agree with a comment: the bow will dictate how you shoot 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@dragonwisard]

Is the bare shaft close shooting test similar to the shooting through a sheet of paper test?

[@NUSensei]

Pretty much.

[@everythingisalllies2141]

@@NUSensei hey, do you still check your emails to your google account? Maybe mine is in the junk bin.... please check. Tassie guy who makes risers...

[@omarhaniffa1357]

Love the shirt, may we shoot together on the maydaan sooner than later bey 🏹🏹🏹

[@ЛукиСтрелы-ш2и]

What arrow would would you recommend for 60 # korean style bow, my draw is 29 .. I been shooting my 35 pound bow, and 33 " Arrows spined 350 . With 225 point weight. Fly so good, just can't get it right with 60# . I need them heavy so I have to use heavier point weights. Thus need stiffer spine I suppose.

[@archygrey9093]

As a kid with homemade bows i instinctively shot from the right side of the bow and used khatra, no fancy reason, just an attempt to prevent string slap on my wrist lol

[@junkazama9149]

what bow is used in video, keep videos coming

[@stunningmean987technogamin6]

Well said.

[@redeemedhuntsman8492]

Great video! Do you think it would be more beneficial to a primitive archer? I’m primarily a hunter and this seems like quite a lot of extra movement. Do you think eastern archers of the past would have used this technique while hunting?

[@NUSensei]

If they used it in their normal method of shooting, it would stand to reason that they would have used it in practical application, be it for warfare or hunting. The point is that the archer wants to achieve a clean arrow flight. If they achieve it by using khatra, then they would have no reason to _not_ use it for hunting.

[@ianbruce6515]

There is very little extra movement if Khatra is done correctly. The flamboyant follow through is unnecessary. What you do after the arrow has left the bow has no effect.

[@RosssRoyce]

You know very well that it is not the fiberglass which is the problem with some bows but the thick handle and thus place where the arrow passes on these bows. My feeling is that the question is about “dosage” of this Katharine thing.

[@anlashok42]

Where can I get a shirt like the one you’re wearing? Please and Thanks

[@vllad74]

I am new to archery the so stuff I am saying is probably not right but anyway. I think Khatra was needed because not all arrows were completely straight in the past. So by using Khatra it was less likely that the curved side of your arrow would hit the bow while shooting, hence the chance of having bad arrow flight was minimized. Let me know if I am talking out of my ***

[@makinganoise6028]

Can tell by the comments, many people have read the headline, but not watched the video.

[@cz6774]

Does khatra work whilst riding a horse? I would think that over extending the bow could throw off your balance and cause you to fall of the horse. Is khatra used to reduce hand shock? When using a heavy war-bow does khatra allow for a speedy recovery? I think that all archery is instinctive. It's like driving a car. Practice makes gives you an algorithm that solve problems. You don't have to think about what to do next because the controls become hard-wired. You feel the road as you drive... You can tell if you have a flat tire or if rain is causing your car to slip and you adjust for anomalies...

[@NUSensei]

The bow doesn't have so much mass that it would cause you to fall off a horse. You are not shifting your weight when doing khatra any more than you would when doing any kind of shooting from horseback. A general mistake that learners may encounter is leaning too heavily into the shot, which would not be suitable on horseback. The weight should be even on the feet, but the lean happens at the hips. This has nothing to do with the release and khatra. You learn the fundamentals of the stable platform in your shooting stance, which translates to the position while mounted.

[@cz6774]

@@NUSensei I agree. The goal is to turn yourself into a stable weapons platform. That is the zen of archery. Form and economy of motion are important. Breathing is also important to any type of shooting so you can keep your mark. A one inch deviation can cause you to miss by several feet. The follow-through actually puts the nock of the next arrow in your bow hand closer to the string so there is a continuous shooting cycle. The more you train the faster you'll be able to adjust and adapt to new conditions. Poor form leads to poor performance. Good form leads to consistency, balance and harmony.

[@krystofmraz]

I would say khatra is only the movement comming from tension when you release, these forms are irelevant and don't change much, its Just extension of the movement coming from tension which should ensure right tension whem you are releasing the arow. At least its what works for me, when i do release with right tension, it doesnt matter where the bow moves after that. So I would say forcing that movement is only tool to achieve good release, not the original intention At all. But maybe i Just missunderstood whole think.

[@letssee8397]

Just doing something does not mean a solid execution or demonstration - a clean khatra shouldn't impart force upon the arrow to twist the arrow shaft impact.

[@number.875]

I use slight side khatra to keep string away from my arm after release

[@sandorgrofarchery]

Khatra is more about avoiding friction between the bow and arrow and save the energy that would be loosed on that friction just mentioned. For me Khatra is about more speed, flat trajectory and mostly about more penetration power. +without Khatra I shoot out to the right in a 20+ degree angle. That is outright dangerous. Wit any of my bows and arrows I can't shot safely without Khatra. So it's about solve two problem but drives into a third one! Yes with Khatra I can shoot way more accurately If I do it perfectly. The smalest mistake cause a thousand times bigger miss. So Khatra is also magnify my mistakes. My worst shot ever by arrow on left side of the bow and tree finger under is way better than my just not perfect executed Khatra shots. I am a beginner in this I just learning and I do it only from KZbin without any help from anybody. My greatest achievement so far is not to be dangerous to myself and my surroundings. Meanwhile I were hit a light cavalry shield size target from 180 meters (196 yards) and a man size target from 240 meters (262 yards). Breaking down the ego and pride on the way Ahmed Karat said. This is why I do it+ on some competitions the tree finger under technique is outright banned. That is rule to shoot by thumb draw and arrow on the right. So I am also forced to learn archery this way.

[@mocheford]

isn't khatra also used to avoid ripping your arrow path ?

[@paradox_1729]

I am sorry what are you calling that distance? torba distance? tolba distance? I think I am having trouble with the accent a bit.

[@Skunkwerx]

In terms of people saying it lets the arrow get away cleaner: I’ve watched many people do it on here and slowed the clips all down and the arrow has long left the bow before they move their hand/bow.. thus it is absolutely pointless. There is a minute gap, between when the arrow leaves the string and yet hasnt passed the ‘riser’ in which you need to flick the bow out the way.. almost impossible to react and time that accurately. Do it too early you’ll affect the arrow whilst still on the string, and too late and its pointless. That and the archers paradox, if the arrow is matched correctly it will get around the bow. Seems like a very pointless waste of energy to me. But in terms of a follow through: Yeah I can see that, if the bow wants to pounce forward and its easier on your joints/muscles to allow it then bang on, all good. I’m a recurve olympic style shooter so dont grip at all haha.. love these horsebows though..

[@NUSensei]

One thing to keep in mind is whether you are watching khatra performed correctly or incorrectly. _Most_ people who do khatra - I dare say - do it incorrectly, either because they are doing a cosmetic post-shot flick, or they are not correctly gripping the bow and the shot is not synchronised. Khatra is not a _reaction,_ it is a result of the pressure on the grip. The archer doesn't need to time their "flick" - that is impossible. They need to understand how to grip the bow to get it to move in the desired way for arrow flight. The point about the archer's paradox is exactly the point being raised: one solution to arrow clearance is to match the arrow spine. That's something we can more easily do today with modern manufacturing. Historically, it was less likely that you could match arrows that consistently, and khatra was at least one method to address that problem, which is why it was documented in historical texts. Not every culture did it this way. It's also the reason why many modern-day archers might not even need khatra. If using modern materials and modern arrows, they may have already solved the problem of arrow clearance, and khatra may be an unnecessary relic of the historical art. Part of the problem now is that people learn it or imitate it without understanding why it was done and create a new mythos around it.

[@Skunkwerx]

@@NUSensei Nice one cheers for explaining man :)

[@lubomirmoravcik2213]

​@@NUSensei Predpokladám že khatra je momentálne nepochopená technika streľby z luku určená prevažne pre bojové účely. V boji keď lukostrelec minul všetky svoje šípy musel sa spoľahnúť na šípy popadané po zemi pozbierať ich a strieľať s nimi. Tieto šípy mohli byť od nepriateľa alebo spolubojovníka a môhli mať rozdielnu váhou a spin. Dovolím si tvrdiť že bez použitia khatry by s pozbieranými šípmi nedokázal presne strieľať.

[@RoyMcAvoy]

Very insightful video ぬ先生. For me, archery is a self discovering journey. I keep on learning new techniques and styles. I keep what's working for me and discard which ever doesn't for for me. Then off to the next discovery. I'm shooting a Korean style bow but not all Korean archery technique I applied in my archery. So, my archery style is my style only. After all, I really hate following all the techniques in one particular style. Just because I learned something for a certain teacher, doesn't mean I have to follow all the thing that he does. 😇

[@leonardo27630]

New panther! review it!

[@duasobA]

If you show slow motion of ur Khatra performance u will see ur delay executing khatra. It is obvious that ur skills are in olymbic style not in trad

[@medievverse]

I would love to see more bare shaft test shots before these conclusions. I don't think 5 arrows can give you a solid answer. Also, why shoot from 1 meter distance? Won't a big distance show us a better quality of the flight?

[@NUSensei]

Torba is a shot distance as a training and diagnostic tool. While a skilled shooter can launch a bare shaft true out to 50 metres, you can no longer see the flight of the arrow. 5 shots might have been on camera, but I can do it a hundred times with similar result. The point is that the arrow does not lie. Slow motion cameras will capture the deflection of the arrow when khatra is not executed well vs. clean execution.

[@medievverse]

@@NUSensei thanks for your answer Sensei. I do appreciate your videos and the tone of value your are giving us. I ve seen many slowmo videos I know what you mean. But think about it.. What is a bad Khatra? best case the arrows do not touch the bow (clean Khatra), worst case on a bad Khatra, it does touch the bow like any non Khatra shot does. So to me, Khatra is better but only if you are super consistent with it. One more question and please tell me your opinion: I've seen people using Khatra (vertically) with split finger and the arrow to the left. Even on horseback. Does this even make sense to you?

[@robertwong2412]

I've shot with and without khatra for asiatic thumb draw bows. Without khatra my arrows never travel straight and when it hits the target, it's always at an angle. Khatra is needed for asiatic style thumb draw bows without centershot cutaway.

[@d0mochi]

I do side forward khatra when I shoot my handgun

[@laviadelcane1527]

I really love your video, but looking at the bareshaft test, may be you just perform khatra incorrectly.

[@BadHonkyTonks]

PS miss you from Earth under.

[@L398B]

Are We Actually Introducing Another Layer of Problem? Mongolian Khatra for me is the Best for Hunting Good at Power And Speed But not for precise olympic

[@mikeehrmantraut2607]

too bad, this video is a bit useless because you dont take a sec to explain what kathra is... hearing this the first time now. but im glad you making video again.

[@NUSensei]

This is a fair point, but after a few hundred videos, I can't repeatedly go over the same basic fundamentals in every video. These are lengthy as they are, and going over every step will only add 5-10 minutes of old information. The entire first minute already frames the topic and not only demonstrates khatra, but includes screenshots of explanations of khatra. There is a level of assumed knowledge when creating specific niche topics, and khatra is one of the more well known (and controversial) concepts in Asiatic archery. Half the time I get questions over why I shoot on the outside of the bow.

[@mikeehrmantraut2607]

@@NUSensei sorry for by boldness, thats my thing. i love your channel and it made me buy a boy and start myself. i find you can explain this very good and i can feel you know alot and have ypur heart in it. im absolutly a loyal follower :-)

[@mikeehrmantraut2607]

buy a bow, not a boy

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

No...

[@L.sPonsel]

That really Helps

[@blindarchershaunhenderson3769]

NUsensei, I keep getting rid replies on some of my posts on your videos from somebody calling themselves TELGRAF@NUsensai, saying congratulations that I have been chosen, despise hiding and muting these posts I keep getting them on other comments I have made, just thought you might like to know

[@NUSensei]

Yeah, it's a scam I've seen reported on other channels too. I'm flattered.

[@NUSensei]

I mean, uh, give me money plz.

[@archygrey9093]

As a kid with homemade bows i instinctively shot from the right side of the bow and used khatra, no fancy reason, just an attempt to prevent string slap on my wrist lol