Does A Scrubby Fighting Game Even Exist?

CAN WE REALLY CALL ANY MAINSTREAM FIGHTING GAME SCRUBBY?
In a discussion of whether or not SF6 is a scrubby game on social media, James responded that he believes just about every fighting game could be called scrubby. So he got to thinking: what IS a scrubby fighting game, anyhow? Is there actually even such a thing as a scrubby fighting game? James gives his thoughts.
== TIME STAMPS ==
0:00:00 Happy Holidays!
0:05:07 Scrubby Fighting Games
0:08:15 Scrubby Vs. Honest
0:10:00 What IS A Scrubby Game?
0:12:43 ST Claw Ultimate Scrub!
0:14:26 HyouBal
0:16:23 Is SF6 Luke Scrubby??
0:22:07 Is crMK Into Drive Rush Scrubby?
0:24:17 Can You Actually Name A Scrubby FG?
0:27:55 Is It Scrubby? Or Is It Skill Issue?
0:28:39 "If It Was Cheap, Everyone Would Use It"
0:29:51 We Need To Stop Calling FGs Scrubby
0:32:01 Scrubby Vs. Unbalanced Vs. Honest
0:34:35 "Closing" Thoughts
0:35:51 We LIKE Dishonest FGs!
0:40:34 ASIDE: How Would You Reboot VF?
0:45:28 LET'S BE REAL: GRAPHICS!
0:47:27 VF Modern Controls?
0:51:32 Outro
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#FGC #Esports #Podcast

[@VarthDaver]

"Third Strike is honest" says the player as he puts you in an Oro/Urien unblockable loop. "You just gotta guess right and not get into that situation".

[@GoldGuard]

Vega is still paying for his crimes from Super Turbo to this day. He hasn’t been in the high end of a tier list since CVS2

[@zhaf]

As a Vega enjoyer from CvS2. Yes I agree. I've yet to find a game with him that is so satisfying to play as he is in CvS2.

[@raionbomber75]

Sheit even Karate Champ was broke, the red guy had access to the jump kick before the white guy lol

[@UltraChenTV]

WAIT. Is this a real thing? LOL! I need to know!!

[@rookbranwen8047]

fighting games aren't scrubby, players are. It is a mentality scrubs call everything that beats them scrubby, broken, OD, OP etc. and don't bother learning. See the scrublord's prayer.

[@666slateran666]

Downplaying cheap shit and top tiers lmao

[@Finalwolfe]

Happy Holidays James you're the best keep the grind going and keep adapting, appreciate you dude!

[@atsurokihara5525]

One thing is for sure. The growly james chen voice is iconic

[@Bager_RBN]

Appropriately, someone in our local community discord recebtly asked if there had ever been a SF character that would carry people as hard as JP. I linked him some ST Claw videos. He conceded, and also declared that he'd never ever play ST.

[@Ryusuta]

"Blade Strangers has entered the chat."

[@superbnns]

"Game is scrubby" = "game isn't identical to the game I first got good at"

[@terrysalt]

I tend to think of scrubby as being that the counterplay is much more difficult than the tactic. So Honda buttslam in SF6 would qualify. There's people who cruised through the lower ranks off that move alone. Obviously once your opponents are at the skill level where they can shut down your scrubby tactic, your entire game plan falls apart. But based on that, every game has scrubby elements and it's good because it forces people to properly learn the game to be able to deal with it.

[@liquidbiden]

Scrubs? Thats a game that dont get no love from me. Riding on the passeneger side of the winners ride trying to holler at me.

[@NotBer]

Man, I remember playing Xmen vs SF as a kid, and my cousin always picked Sabertooth and Gambit, and beat me all the time. I thought he just liked Sabertooth, now I know he was scrubby on that game lol.

[@TalicZealot]

James is starting to look like the gamer version of Eugene Teo with the hair coming along.

[@ocoro174]

a mechanic or character or move doesn't have to be popular or widespread or competitive to be rightfully called scrubby. it just has to be good enough and simple enough and universal enough to give noobs to intermediates far more prowess than they have any right to have. a game that has a few or more of these elements can then be called scrubby

[@Anasterproductions]

any game I am not good at is a scrubby game... And I'm not good at any if them so they all bullshit and scrubby! Also Merry crimmas! Your content has brought a smile to my face even when I'm having a shitty time!

[@vg4917]

obvious answer i thought of when discussing what is scrubby... sf6 modern

[@UltraChenTV]

Have you tried it yourself? Curious to see if your results would skyrocket using the “scrubby” Modern controls.

[@vodkagobalsky]

To be honest, even hyoubal requires the claw player to know how to use correctly. There's a bit of knowledge needed to control the wall dives and time them properly. Higher level play, the players will know different things to counter predictable hyoubals. I guarantee I won't lose to a first day claw in ST.

[@DioDCynic]

There are 4 main FG subtypes: honest, kusoge, scrubby and busted. And some games can have elements of two of any of the 4. Although kusoge and busted are opposite as honest is to scrubby.

[@HeirofDacia]

Kusoge has no z in it.

[@DioDCynic]

Thanks for letting me know!

[@zhaf]

I don't think there are any scrubby fighting games. Only scrubby characters at some skill levels. For example E.Honda is super scrubby at beginner level because the character can hard carry a player to beat a more skilled player. At some skill level this is not true anymore and E.Honda is then also not a scrubby character anymore. But I don't think there are any games that I am aware of where a core game mechanic is so broken than it makes the entire game scrubby. Also what is the definition of honest and not honest here? Is it just when a character is "very balanced" or "very unbalanced"? If it is then why aren't we just using the word balanced instead of honest? I agree with James here. 99,9% when players are raging about a game or character being scrubby it's when that player either can't deal with it or don't like dealing with it (I don't believe that Mena can't deal with the things he is complaining about). This is still about the game I am currently playing don't handle stuff the same way as the game I like to play. And I do the same. I constantly compare fighting games with CvS2 becasue that the fighting game I like the most and I'm fully aware that there are some degenerate bullshit in that game.

[@TrveEmma]

✨

[@ko-yoshi]

Ooo hyoball kinda like smash ultimate sonic ughh😅

[@yourdagan]

My favorite fighting game is Dead Or Alive 4. Virtua Fighter 5 feels stiffer to play, has silly juggles you can't do anything about, a ninja character that's underpowered (and thus not as fun) as DOA4's, and slower-paced gameplay. That's why I'm not a fan of Virtua Fighter in comparison. There's quite a few people who'd call Dead Or Alive scrubby, and even a segment of the fanbase who'd call Dead Or Alive 4 scrubby. They don't like how built-in combos are and easy to perform. Characters like Christie or Kasumi, who are very jabbing-based, are very easy to mash with and rattle off some damage without knowing much at all about their actual movelists. They also don't like how the counter mechanic seems like a get-out-of-jail free card that robs successful offense of guaranteed damage they feel entitled to for getting the hit. They think anyone can just keep mashing the counter input and luck out and screw them, even if they aren't actually good at the game. The truth is, first, that the mashing you can do in DOA4 is very predictable and telegraphed, and thus easy to punish with a counter. Mashing against a competent player doesn't actually get you very far, because it's very easy to see it happening and the tools are there to put a quick stop to it. Secondly, the counter system encourages great attention to rhythm and conditioning. Because the chosen combos/attacks aren't that difficult to react to, the timing of execution factors in heavily into one's ability to punish them with a counter. The defender mashing counter will find themself getting faked out with a prematurely ended combo or delayed blow, and left wide-open for a punish of their failed counter. The end result is, that DOA4, at a higher level of play, punishes you for mashing and scrubbing, both offensively and defensively. While the elements that make it "scrubby" serve to make the game more accessible to players at a low level, the playing field evens back out at the more experienced side due to the fundamental way the game was designed, therefore discouraging and punishing scrubbing.

[@PipeRetrogamer]

the original ki is scrubby af. just cinder everyone

[@SuperLemonfish]

definition of Scrubby to me: where comparatively low effort techniques are so powerful, they can carry low skill players higher than normal. but that doesn't mean the scrubby options are optimal at the highest level. They just have to be over-bearingly strong, compared to how easy they are. good examples: Honda in sf6 is scrubby. hes bad, but definitely scrubby. at a slightly higher level of skill, DJs raw DR is scrubby too. Its really hard to beat. Really easy to do. quintessential scrubby trait. Most games in total are not scrubby, but i think every game has scrubby options at various skill levels. thats fine tbh, AS LONG, as the highest level of play is safe from scrubby shit. and thats why i think raw drive rush should be nerfed. Because even at high level, you can kinda just do it yolo. where as honda, doesn't need nerfs, if anything, him being scrubby at a low level might be GOOD because it can give confidence to bad players, and frustrate other players, hopefully motivating them to learn and improve at the game. It, adds spice. But if the scrubby tactic IS the highest level of play (geneijin, vega) thats when theres a problem. you do not grow and learn to overcome.... you just sit and watch the dumb shit kill you.

[@DioDCynic]

Fair nuff

[@chimpmasterflex]

Couldn't have said it much better, but I think in honda's case it is more bad than good, only because I feel winning off only headbutts/buttslams (generally) kind of stunts growth. Like sure you'll get wins off lower level players for sure, and are even capable of master just by doing those, but in a lot of cases I find people will refuse to learn and/or get frustrated when their tried and true method doesn't work. And sure maybe some people don't really care to get "better" but the ones that do will learn so many bad habits that I think would just set them back so much. He is a bit of a strange situation though, because I can't think of another "noob-killer" that falls off so hard, so that kind of makes remedying that kind of difficult imo.

[@UltraChenTV]

Hard agree with almost all of this. Well stated. ^_^

[@SuperLemonfish]

@@UltraChenTV Thank you! And on a side note, thank you for everything you are doing/have done for the fgc! ive been a huge fan ever since i saw you commentate melee evo 2013. you did great despite not being a "melee guy" and it pulled me into sf4 from there. great commentary, great talking points and old-school insight/analysis, great cat!

[@SuperLemonfish]

@@chimpmasterflex yes, it might stunt growth for some. but i can see that it might inspire others to try and push past that plateau. maybe through character switch or really buckling down and getting to hondas deeper level. it's hard to say if its more bad than good but, id say the memes and jovial although salty attitude the community has towards honda hints that its more positive. idk tho! you could be right

[@B_Ahmed1234]

Scrub not lest ye be scrubbed.

[@ReptileMonitor]

A game isn't defined as scrubby because it has characters that are overpowered or bugged, I don't even think it makes sense to assume that people are talking about characters when they call a game scrubby. Also, SF4 game mechanics are the most honest. No throw loops, you need to constantly be reacting to your opponents. I know people talk about the backdashes, focus attack but at least it isn't a death sentence. Most of the thing that you can exploit takes execution, that is fun to me and what fighting games should be like. You need reaction in SF6 but mostly only when you have meter or a special to be able to do something that can stop your opponent, there isn't even much meter management, running out of gauge means you're dead no matter how good your reactions or execution is. SF6 doesn't need to be this way to be fun, why not add a throw OS escape that you can do within one frame or even a just frame window, but at least have it there. Why do characters start with full drive gauge that regenerates? Again, not much meter management, also, why not have SF4 level of execution? or better yet, just remaster SF4 but don't change the graphics too much, because SF4 still looks better than SF6. 😜 Anyway, I don't even know why I care. By the way, I'm ready for the HATE! CHEERS! 😙

[@UltraChenTV]

SFIV absolutely had Throw Loops. But it also had a myriad of ways to defeat Throw Loops, most prominently Crouch Teching. Also many characters had invulnerable wakeups that made Meaty Throws scarier to try. Also, with the lack of input buffering, it was SO much easier to mistime Throw Loops. Having said that, SFIV also had vortex, which is one of the most dishonest things in existence. I actually quit SFIV during AE2012 because I got sick of vortex and unblockables. Then characters like Fuerte exist, so there’s really not much honest about the game. The most “honest” fighting games are the ones you are willing to put up with the bullshit most. I love ST and use a bottom tier character, but I’ve accepted that game’s BS. So I still love the game. But that game is dishonest AF. There is very little “honest” about SFIV and, even so, it took seven years to get to a state of the game where it was as honest as it was going to get. Because the first 6 years of the game were hounded by lots of really grimy stuff. Hahaha.

[@ReptileMonitor]

@UltraChenTV Off the top of my head, the vortex was only a few characters, Seth, Akuma, maybe a couple more. As for El Fuerte, all you needed to do was backdash / forward dash and sometimes make some reads. Reads are always going to be part of the game, and vortex were fixed later on with delayed wakeups. I played against top ranked people, I remember how SF4 was. It was the best SF game ever made. Any version would be the best, taking OP characters out of the equation. It's game mechanics and easy execution that makes me not want to play a fighting game, but whatever Capcom wants to do, I guess. Whatever they think it's best for them. I'm going to Bed :)

[@ReptileMonitor]

@UltraChenTV I almost forgot, there were no unblockables in SF4. Only hard to block, you needed to press forward and backward quickly, if I remember correctly. It was difficult, but they weren't unblockable.

[@UltraChenTV]

Many characters had a vortex. And Fuerte in Ultra SFIV was way more than just our back Dash and make some reads. EX Quesadilla Bomb was a nightmare. You have to remember: I commentate the highest level of SFIV play. I kinda remember the game, too. SFIV to me, still, is probably the weakest entry in the SF series. It’s good, but it’s far from being the best. Trust me, the game that one enjoys the most largely comes down to the game you’re most used to and the one you succeed most in. SFIV was very flawed, but almost every SF game is flawed. Super Turbo is my favorite and I could write a NOVEL on its flaws. Again, many of the things that you say were fixed in SFIV (unblockables and vortex) were “fixed” in Ultra… 6 years later. Also, unblockables being blockable with a 1f perfect timing walk forward then back doesn’t make them not a problem. They were still essentially unblockables. It’s cool that you like SFIV so much. But to talk about it as if it has no flaws is just crazy. The game is very flawed, and that’s okay. It can be your favorite SF, and I respect that. But let’s not pretend the game was perfect. No Fighting Game is perfect. Every one of them are full of scrubby tactics that work. And there is no such thing as an honest Fighting Game.

[@ReptileMonitor]

@@UltraChenTV I know you're a commentator Chen, I've watched endless tournaments since Super Street Fighter 4. I understand that you need to be careful with what you say, and I'm not saying that your career has an influence over what might or might not say, I believe you want the best for SF and the FGC as a whole. I just disagree with your opinion, I don't think it's fair to compare characters tools with core game mechanics of a game. I didn't say SF4 was perfect, but it's the best when you compare the game mechanics on its own. I didn't even like the red focus and the Omega version in Ultra, I didn't play much USF4 to be honest. Anyway, I believe SF6 can get close to SF4 at its peak. I just don't think it's ever going to happen because of the amount of changes it would take to the game core mechanics alone, it's just too much work not to mention all the characters would need to be balanced out. Maybe one day capcom would make a good game, like undeniably good and fun to play. MenaRD would still be the best, in all honesty he'd probably be even better and finally be able to show his true potential that's being held back by SF6. I'm starting to believe that, I'm honestly worried that he might lose the next Capcom Cup because of the way you have to play SF6. Cheers!

[@zhaf]

If you had ST an and you could only play Vega. Now you have a fighting game with only one character. Would that be scrubby or honest? Also if you have two players who have never played fighting games before and you gave them both a 1 hour crash course on ST. One with Vega and one with Akuma. Who would win in a best of 5? I wouldn’t bet money on it. But I think perhaps that the Vega player might win.

[@joshlister4938]

I don't think sf6 is scrubby, but I disagree with James' definition given. I don't think balance has anything to do with it, if a character has some really low effort, low skill moves that produce good results or are really difficult to deal with, I would say that's scrubby. Honda has the scrubbiest moves for me in sf6. Headbutt and buttslam are really easy to do and difficult to deal so a Honda player can just do two easy moves and give people of equal skill disproportionate trouble. But I don't see almost any Honda's where I am in master and my win rates VS them if really high, but I still feel like I have to put in disproportionate effort and skill to be able to beat that basic strategy. So, by my definition, a game that had lots of characters that had a basic strategy like sf6 Honda and scrubby moves like his Headbutt and buttslam, would be a scrubby game. I don't have the FG experience to know if a game like that exists tho. All of this is just to say that I thought when people used that word in that context they were talking about what I'm talking about, not what James is talking about. And through that lense the conversation is different. Love ya James

[@666slateran666]

Honda is simultaneously a scrub character and a scrub killer lol

[@Retrofun69]

the most dishonest and broken games are the most fun. Balanced games are immensely boring and get stale fast.

[@yorkie4295]

not sure how many people here follow competitive smash bros, but dear lord, steve is SO scrubby kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZq5pHSiatirjKMsi=5uE0eRcZI6yQ3pIE