Does John of Patmos Accept the Gospel of Jesus?

[@tjkusterjr.3685]

I look forward to this podcast every week. You both are fantastic. Thank you!

[@lazykbys]

As I see it, both Jesus and John were reacting to the Apocalyptic idea that those who were not right with God were going to be destroyed VERY SOON. Jesus's response was to try and save as many people from destruction as possible. John's response was to thrust a fist into the air and shout, "Bring it on!"

[@tpl1955]

Given the enormous discrepancies between how the Gospels and Revelation portray Jesus, what do scholars know about how and why Revelation made it into the New Testament?

[@williamboisdenghien2849]

From what I have read it actually almost didn't make it. It was one of the last books to get into the "approved" list. A vague memory tells me it was still debated in the 5th century.

[@liquidityoforange440]

Athanasius was the father who pushed for its inclusion

[@riddlezastra1496]

​@@williamboisdenghien2849yeah youre right. there is a misquoting jesus pod dedicated to this you guys can check it out

[@marcusbrown592]

I hear it was between this and the apacalypse of Peter. The determining factor was that Peter’s book said you can get out of hell by calling on Jesus.

[@markjpalmer619]

Thanks Dr. Ehrman and Dr. Lewis for the podcast. I've read Dr. Ehrman's books for many years, and over the past year have been listening to these KZbin podcasts and signed up for some of his courses online. I recommend all of it to anyone interested in the history of the Bible and what is behind the Bible, as best historians can figure out. Thanks a bunch, and looking forward to more online.😇

[@Hermesforthree]

How in the world did it get canonized?

[@grumpy9478]

when you're creating an all-time globe-spanning enterprise, ya gotta cover all the bases.

[@PasteurizedLettuce]

Because Jesus is most like God in that text, and basically just because athanasius wanted it in (he was committed to Jesus as a co-equal figure in the trinity)

[@robertdargan1113]

​@@PasteurizedLettuce Because at the time the cannon was being decided, they thought it was written by the same guy who wrote the gospel of John. Plus the ego wars going on with the bishops of the day!

[@PasteurizedLettuce]

@@robertdargan1113 no that’s not it actually. It really came more down to athanasius and the christological debates

[@thoughtfuloutsider]

Bart, you briefly touched on a subject I'd love to hear more about. Non-violence and its role in the early church, how it changed to adapt to the Roman world in which the warriors were the highest status men. Where does non-violence fir in the Jewish teaching and laws that Jesus wanted people to get back to?

[@jillengland3277]

While listening to this vid I paused it to read Willis Barnstone’s translation of “Apocalypse or Revelation”. Chapter 18. And the prose of that translation is spectacular, I had to read it out loud, no audience, just to hear it. It was clearly intended for performances before an audience.

[@petergrant2561]

It would be interesting to discuss why Revelation was/is included in the Canon.

[@stantorren4400]

You can’t convince those in power to convert by selling possessions and helping the poor. Having a God torturing people and gaining their wealth sounds perfect for a king

[@franswa529]

Fascinating, thank you. Such a good analysis!

[@pinky9440]

I read Revelation twice, our church (which I am no longer a member of) had multiple bible-studies on it and every symbol was deciphered and they believe they know the whole meaning of everything in the book.

[@andremignacco6523]

Thank you so much for your show❤

[@busyb8676]

I understand that most of the bishops were against including Revelations in the canon. It reinforced the trinity doctrine so was included.

[@dirkcampbell5847]

Would have liked to know how/why Revelation got included in the NT.

[@Cloudryder]

The people being crushed from the giant wine press was so disturbing too. Revelation reminds me of an updated version of Sodom and Gomorrah with added gore.

[@MarkJenssen]

This was a terrific episode. Makes me think in a whole different way. Although Revelation was always horrifying goes to show how in a fairly short time The movement got so far from Jesus

[@rbaxter286]

AND, the Church Fathers considered this Jesus consonant with all the other Jesuses in their canon. Shows how corrupt and OBVIOUSLY NOT REVEALED their collection of propaganda 'leaflets' are.

[@brrrrrick]

“Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." judging doesn't sound like serving

[@richardcarruthers2100]

Great episode. Thank you

[@annwood6812]

I would love to have Megan to compare or contrast something from her field of expertise with the topic at hand. That would provide some really interesting context.

[@donl9571]

Nice topic for the readings for this time of the year 🙂

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

thank you Megan

[@blazinchalice]

Revelation should not have been included in Biblical canon. Its inclusion caused so many problems, and still does to this day. It turns many away from Jesus' message in the Gospels because it incites fear and, on the other hand, ridicule.

[@spyder2383]

To be fair, none of the books should be canon, in that it's all just BS.

[@noname-by3qz]

​​@@spyder2383 Absolutely. Archeologists have been looking for almost a hundred years and can't find any evidence of King David or any other evidence of Isreal itself. Even professors of Archeology from Tel Aviv University! So that discounts the whole new testament. As if we didn't have enough reasons already! Jesus died both at nine and noon. He rose before sunrise and after. Judas died 2 different ways. Joseph has 2 different genealogies. It never ends!

[@danstevens6455]

Jesus does use fear in the gospels in my view such as in Mark 9:48 where Jesus uses the imagery of worms and flames to describe the eternal torments of people who are not on God's side after the last judgement

[@pretzelogic2689]

Unfortunately they did leave out the books reporting Jesus killing children, killing a teacher of his and blinding neighbors of Mary a Joseph.

[@aniteleatone9195]

I'm glad revelations is in the Bible 😂😂

[@michaelwright2986]

Perhaps the discussion would have been helped by noting that Apocalypse was very contested for inclusion in the canon. Unfortunately, it was: but the fact that many learned and devout people were opposed before the canon became settled, and many have regretted the fact afterwards, is relevant to the question of whether it is consistent with the life and teaching of Jesus.

[@SharonFoster852]

This is an important point. In the Orthodox Church, Revelation isn't included in the yearly lectionary.

[@Murkoph]

When my brother was younger, he'd spend hours drawing these vast, gory stickman battles in his notebooks. Tanks, mountains of corpses, explosions, guns, storms of bullets. Revelations is essentially this. It's a red-minded man gleefully butchering stick figures. Later, Dante did more or less the same thing in The Inferno. Puerile fiction by frustrated boys who revel in imagining the people they don't like coming to grim ends. Dress your torture porn up in the popular religious or political trappings of the day, and people will still be talking about it centuries later, haha.

[@diegog1853]

I have no problem with violence and gore in art. The drawings of your brother sounded pretty sick if perhaps they were done in other circumstances. The problem with all this violence in the bible is portrayed as a "good" thing. Christians actively want the end of the world to happen because is the will of God snd they will get their reward or whatever. But inevitably that translates to wishing for a lot of people to suffer gruesome deaths and saying they deserve that fate. That is the horrible part.

[@gritch66]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@Zebred2001]

When I read Revelation the impression I got was that John of Patmos was a complete nutbar!

[@tbishop4961]

🍄 🍄 🍄

[@TheDanEdwards]

Same could be said of the Jesus of the gospels, or of Paul.

[@tbishop4961]

@h.s.3022 there are all sorts of circumstances that can bring on a state of "death" and precipitate fantastic ideas. I was being hyperbolic or perhaps just appealing to what people may have personally experienced

[@johnheaton5058]

What I find amusing is that you think your uninformed opinion counts for something...

[@Cousin676]

I find a complex writing by a highly educated person who knows scripture very well and is an artist with metaphor - improbably John Jesus apostle, who was not educated. There is a reason this book was on the chopping block Eusebius questioned its authority

[@davem5884]

I'd love to see a part 2 where we situate Revelation in its contemporary literary genre and the expectations of its audience.

[@MCarrington01]

How did the church agree that the book of Revelations was divine and should be part of canonical scripture, if it so diametrically opposes Jesus’ teaching?

[@hunglikeahamster]

I don't see how. Don't forget he was an apocalyptic prophet who taught that the end times would come within the lifetime of the disciples.

[@MCarrington01]

But like Dr. Eehman mentioned, Jesus did not promote violence between people.

[@exoplanet11]

Bart answered that question in other interviews: They mistakenly thought it was written by a disciple, John, and then reluctantly included it. If they had known the truth that it was written much later by someone else, they wouldn't have included it. But they were ignorant.

[@gustingdis]

If they knew anything at all about the old testament they would have included it in the canon.

[@Ramukaka249]

Revelations was included in the canon only in the 4th century at the expense of more popular books such as the Shepherd of Hermas. Bart has another talk where he explains how its inclusion could have been to settle scores in a theological debate. At any rate, “the church” in this case is just a bunch of random bishops.

[@KS-tx6bh]

I enjoyed the steam punk glasses!

[@sail4life]

Great podcast, as usual, thank you both!

[@JillMorgan-b7y]

How do others feel about the lack of chat at the beginning? I liked the small personal conversation at the beginning but looks like they have abolished it. How do other people feel about it?

[@PhilSophia-ox7ep]

They seem like lovely people. I'd have them both over for dinner. But, to be honest, I could do without it. I normally skip through it. But I don't complain or anything about it. I still love the show and the two of them. I can live with it, but I can also live without it.

[@Live_WildMT]

I enjoyed their chats in the beginning; an sorry to see they are not doing it anymore

[@jackiehorn6858]

I also enjoyed the chats in the beginning, it was nice to hear a little about the lives of two interesting scholars. It made it seem somehow more personal. You could always skip it if you were in a hurry.

[@joshrogers7816]

There has been some criticisms of the pretalk chat but I wonder if it's about security. There are a few unpleasant people out on social media and Megan and Bart have been very free with their personal details. If this is the case it's a sad reflection on modern society.

[@OrvilleJenkins]

Yes, I like that aspect of this series. That was a welcome prelude that enabled them to ease into the topic. It adds a warm personal aura to the discussion.

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@robbabcock_]

Thanks for a great examination of a widely misunderstood book!

[@sebastianmejia4884]

All true followers of Christ and Jesus should know this information

[@tiburd7]

Christians need to watch this video.

[@aniteleatone9195]

I'm a Christian. That doesn't phase me one bit 😂😂

[@tiburd7]

@@aniteleatone9195 Glad to hear it. Many others would find that it challenges their perspective.

[@aniteleatone9195]

@@tiburd7 I Know what mean. I pray you come to know Jesus. But I hope you have a blessed one 🙏

[@tiburd7]

@@aniteleatone9195 What makes you think I don't?

[@moehoward8691]

Thanks for this discourse on Revelation. I have never read it for the very reason that most people don't. It just made little sense to me when I tried to read it or when I listened to a discussion on it. Christianity can be a confusing religion.

[@johdewit9327]

Spot on podcast 👍

[@geneheard9776]

did John of Patmos breath the same volcanic gasses that the oracles of Delphi used to give their predictions?

[@gritch66]

How dare you compare this to greek wisdom

[@thoughtfuloutsider]

​@@gritch66 😅😅😅😅

[@reginaldwright2608]

Rev. Ehrman, you are indeed a GOOD SHEPHERD 🙏🏾🙏🏾

[@johnheaton5058]

The opposite, I would have thought...

[@harrydecker8731]

That was quite revealing. I never thought about the contrast between how Christ is presented in the gospels and how he is presented in Revelation. If you discuss this topic again, I would like to know if the author of Revelation refers to or uses any passages in the gospels or the epistles. If not, what prompted John to write Revelation?

[@mushroom_thrillers]

Any chance John of Patmos was on a bad trip?

[@histreeonics7770]

John might have not thought his trip was bad, some people live to hate and Revelation threatens most humans.

[@johdewit9327]

​​@@histreeonics7770 There must have been many psilocybin mushrooms growing in that Patmos cave.

[@kenorcutt301]

All of those people were on drugs including Jesus

[@makinapacal]

I find it interesting that Prof. Ehrman seems to really like Jesus, even though he is no fan of Christianity has it developed.

[@emmanuelceliz7819]

I hear more Biblical truth from Barth Ehrman than all of evangelical preachers combined. Listening to Barth really makes me a better Christian than listening to John Macarthur or Paul Washer.

[@JayBandersnatch]

Dr. Ehrman, along with many other atheists, are probably better Christians than the current Christian Nationalists!

[@Cynicallyskeptic]

Guess it makes sense ... Better to learn from an honest sinner than a holier than thou Pharisee

[@SpotterVideo]

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order ) Christ returns one time in the future. However, there are several different visions of His return shown from different perspectives in the Book of Revelation. Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse. Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present? The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ. The wicked city in Revelation 11:8 stands in opposition to the heavenly city in Revelation 3:12. He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15. The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13. He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet? He comes on a horse in chapter 19, right after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Chapter 20? Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1? What did Peter say about the fire in 2 Peter 3:10-13? (The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.) There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46. Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked before that time? Are there wicked angels in the pit in Rev. 9:11? If the beast "ascends" from the pit in Rev. chapter 11, where was the beast before that time? Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness? Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner. Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book. The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.

[@islandofmisfityoutubers6734]

Excellent thank you

[@Valohir666]

Excellent as always. The one debate point I would put forward would be that Dr. Ehrman is assuming the Jesus teachings of the Gospels are the authentic teachings and that Revelation is an aberration. Whereas the gospels are an earlier set of documents it is they which might skew from authenticity, making Jesus more of a Hellenistic philosopher and Revelation might preserve an angrier, more Jewish Apocalyptic Jesus.

[@jenniferadam2258]

This is likely a stupid question but I have to ask anyway: if John's views are so contrary to Jesus's teachings, how/why was his poorly written book even included in the Bible???

[@Chriliman]

Might’ve been out of fear, that if they didn’t include it, their names would be removed from the book of life, as rev 22:19 states.

[@offgrid405]

If I was a believer listening to this, this would absolutely have tipped me over the edge. Bart has demonstrated one great example of why we should not slavishly believe everything in the bible to be true. Maybe Bart is trying a bit harder to portray Christianity as the dreamworld that it really is. Thanks, Megan and Bart.

[@juhankundla]

Was the book really written at the end of II century? Was that a mistake and should have been I century instead?

[@Jaded_Mandarin]

Yes, Bart simply misspoke there. He wouldn't date any New Testament documents that late.

[@GodLovesYou1980]

Very interesting

[@diegog1853]

I was interested in hearing the scholarly opinion of where is john of Patmos getting his jesus knowledge from, is it just oral tradition? Or is there any evidence that he had any knowledge of any of the other four gospels. Given that this is the latest book in the NT and some other writers did have access to them like Mathew and Luke, I would be interested to know if this John did.

[@bettymccorkle788]

Luke was a co,very of Paul, not Yeshua. And the authors of the "gospels" are actually in question. I am a believer in YHWH, but do not believe in Paul's writings, and therefore do not trust that his converts know the truth either.

[@diegog1853]

@bettymccorkle788 I know the authors of the gospels are in question and they most likely are anonymous greek men. I just used their names as a short hand like Bart does multiple times. Still I am curious if there is any evidence that the author of revelations got his knowledge of jesus from any of our NT books. I am really not concerned with the theological questions since I am not a believer.

[@hurdygurdyguy1]

Don't assume Revelation was the last book written because it's the "last" book in line in The New Testament...the books weren't arranged in order of their being written...

[@diegog1853]

@@hurdygurdyguy1 I know, I was talking about the scholarly consensus. Not the ordering of the books in the bible. With the letters of Paul like Corinthians being the first and revelation close to the last. But you are right though, books like second peter and the gospel according to john may be later by a few decades in early second century. But still, Pauls letters and Gospel of Mark are 30 to 50 years older than Revelation. So I am curious if there is any evidence that the author knew anything about them.

[@hurdygurdyguy1]

@@diegog1853 yeh,...I shouldn't have assumed! 😉👍

[@EvanGrambas]

Mark Goodacre's synoptic gospel course is so interesting and engaging. Super

[@TerryJLaRue]

In my extensive secular Bible study, I had to read Revelation twice. The first time I had difficulty understanding it because I kept thinking, "This has to be the worst acid trip anyone has ever been on."

[@simonbattle0001]

When I was a young man in 1966 I got a poster from a place called a "head shop." It was in black and white and it was about my father's war, WWII. On the left side were all of the Nazi soldiers in formation being bless by a Catholic Priest. On right side it showed American soldiers in formation being blessed by a Catholic priest. It was well done and looked like the picture was taken that way not to mention it was three feet long X two feet wide. Later in life I would get the whole irony and duality thing, but it didn't kick in when it could of helped me the most. Now, I can chalk it all up to the old adage that religion is (in my opinion) just another clown made king turning our castle into a circus like most things we are taught to believe or think.

[@parkburrets4054]

Your poster reminds me of Mark Twain’s ghost preaching at church about war

[@simonbattle0001]

@@DummyAccount-f1q I said "It was well done and looked like the picture was taken that way " I knew as I made clear enough that it "looked as if." Point two: as much as I wish I could take ownership of the adage, I can not. Surprising you apparently never heard it before, but yes there are so many old sayings.Three, as for pointing out "someone making a particular point" as I said, I got later in life. I hope this helps you.

[@johnheaton5058]

Try reading some of the works of the saints - might give you better insight.

[@woodystemms3799]

"End Times" ... haven't heard that hooey for a few years ... What's the latest prediction? Next week? Stock up on the bubbly!

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

I like the way Bart has coordinated his shirt to match the colour of his beard

[@michaeltarris4428]

I just started reading Misquoting Jesus this week.

[@irreview]

Let us know how it is

[@4everseekingwisdom690]

​@irreview the symbol you're using.. that's isis correct? My hieroglyphics are a little rusty can't remember if it's Sirius isis or both

[@chriswilcocks8485]

Informative as always I am not inspired to read the book of revelation and think the nt would be better off without it

[@irreview]

@4everseekingwisdom690 Sirius. But almost no one figures it out. So go you, amigo

[@ScottyMcYachty]

Great book! Next on your Bart list, read "Jesus: interrupted" and "How Jesus Became God". But I think my personal fav of Bart's is "God's Problem - how the Bible fails to answer our most important question: why we suffer".

[@David-mo2rg]

Forgive them Father they know not what they do. Pretty clear what Jesus thinks .❤

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

🙏 i think not enough people ever ask themselves the question ☝️ "what would jesus do ?" 👉 if they did the world would be a much nicer place 🙏🤎☝️

[@stavroskarageorgis4804]

Despite my Church's doctrine to the contrary, I've never accepted the Apokálypsis of John as canonical.

[@kennethklima5342]

I have come to the same determination over the last years due to the incredible research paired with public approaches to scholarship by Dr. Ehrman and other scholars such as Dr. Dan McClellan.

[@BetaJantine]

Really helpful to contrast Jesus of gospels with Jesus of Revelation. No one has ever pointed this out in my hearing 40 years of church going. That said am surprised by your take that Christians in Rev 18 are being told to take part in that city’s destruction. I don’t see that in any English translation, telling Gods people to participate in the plagues of judgment payback. How can they be carrying out the judgement if they aren’t in the city? Especially when it says in verse 8 “for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.” Is there something in the Greek which clearly tells the people who “come out of her” to join in carrying out her destruction?

[@thorodinson2017]

No there isn't

[@arthurmartinson4370]

If I had my druthers, the NT would just be Mark and the Epistle of James. (PS Thank God for Bart Ehrman.....AND Megan and her glasses.)

[@Steve-u9k4p]

Excellent, ty

[@mistman5640]

This city of gold reminded me of the death star

[@davedoleshal9775]

Yet another fabulous presentation by Dr. Ehrman. This may well be the most accurate and honest assessment of the Book of Revelation I have yet come across. Bart clearly acknowledges the main concepts and teachings expounded in the Book of Revelation are extremely different from those expressed in the rest of the New Testament. The two sets of teachings are diametrically opposed to each other on nearly every crucial point. What I think we are seeing here are two entirely distinct religions. What we see in Revelation is a form of "Jesus worship" that is closely rooted in messianic/apocalyptic Jewish religion of the day, while the rest of the New Testament seems to be an entirely different interpretation of "Jesus worship" - an interpretation heavily influenced by Hellenistic Judaism and the thinking of non-Jewish Greek and Roman people.

[@danaoneill8695]

I don't understand why Revelation is in the Bible and what we are supposed to do with it.

[@lesbendo6363]

Why did the church fathers include this book in the Bible? 🇨🇦

[@cygnustsp]

Because it gives the impression that Jesus is God, even though at the very beginning it says Jesus was given it by God and even Revelation 3 says Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. Christianity has always been a mess.

[@be1tube]

10:18 (Summer blockbuster trailer voice) He was killed by his enemies, but that was not enough to keep him down. He's back and he will make them pay: rivers and oceans of blood and the carnage from the sword that comes out of his mouth. Jesus 2: Judgement Day

[@paulkoza8652]

This needs a deeper dive. Great start, but I want more.

[@jamesfinn3930]

You should read Armageddon by Dr. Ehrman. It's the kind of deep dive that you're asking for, and that probably is not practical in a podcast.

[@johncure4063]

Recommendations: Instead of of Jesus said . The proper academic term is the character of Jesus ascribed to Mark or Paul. No one knows what Yeshua actually said or taught. 2- It is conflicting portrayal of the epic hero Yashua from each writer. So you can’t assume he said something. Finally I always say : THESE TEXTS WERE WRITTEN IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, IN A DIFFERENT ERA AND IN A DIFFERENT lands compared to what it portrays.

[@kofidan9128]

Blessed are those who read my "Evidence of God", for they shall obtain proof of God. Find my Evidence of God in the comments. To make that easier, change the comment settings on the video to "Newest" and then scroll down gently. Thanks!💫📚✍️

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

we see the pattern in nature 👍

[@milowadlin]

I tried to read revelations a couple of times and failed. Finally I did get through it, but maybe I just passed my eyes over it cuz I didn't get it. I even read your book on the topic, and while it was a good read, I still thought Revelations was a load of crap.

[@hantms]

What made the early church include it in the bible in the first place?

[@markwrede8878]

Constantine the Great could well be the AntiChrist of Revelations.

[@Jonny-lo7hu]

Why does Mr Ehrman say that the book of revelation is about symbols and imagery and then take all the passages about the new Jerusalem an riches literally?

[@David-mo2rg]

Revelation should not have been included. As a coffee table preacher at the bottom of community it causes lots of confusion ❤

[@jamesshepherd6491]

According to Martin Luther, the Book of Revelation should be relegated to a collection of the less than inspired books of the Bible because a book that is titled the Revelation, should be revealing and it wasn't. The other 3 such books in the New Testament that should have suffered the exact same fate of a downgrade of classification were the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistle of Jude, and the Epistle of James - all for different reasons, of course, but it should be obvious for each of these other three.

[@neclark08]

...but "The Book of Revelation" IS 'Relevatory'... It "Reveals" how Morally/Ethically Bankrupt, Visciously BLOODTHIRSTY & Sadistically CRUEL Fundamentalistic Xtianity had TRULY became a few generations after the execution of its' DUD Messiah...

[@MTL_at_Islandgrove]

I was given the assignment, as a college Junior or Senior in a "bible course" to read and write a report on Revelation. My opinion, after reading this was that whoever wrote this was an high on drugs! I still think that was nearer to the truth.

[@robertdargan1113]

​@@DummyAccount-f1q Saying John of Patmos was schitzophrenic implies he had another side to him. I don't think he did. He was completely consumed with revengeful hatred for everyone & this hateful attitude became his identity - he was avenging his persecution & nothing else mattered. He wasn't exiled to Patmos for no reason (was it really such a terrible place back then?).

[@busyb8676]

There are end times preachers who also seem to revel in pictures of suffering. The God of Jesus the loving Father is very different from the wrathful Yahweh of the Old Testament and I think Revelations. It should Not have been included. A very confusing addition to the New Testament and directly contrary to his teachings.

[@exmormonroverpaula2319]

Did John of Patmos have access to the four gospels?

[@woodystemms3799]

What kind of mushrooms grow on Patmos? ... start there ...

[@johnheaton5058]

Trite...

[@JungleJargon]

As if you want to know the truth about the judgement of the nations?

[@LorenPasolari]

how do we know that Jesus speech was actually his. Is there any older video that can answer this ?

[@handofgrace5066]

OK. THERE IS A BIG PROBLEM: Bart Hhrman said that in Chapter 18 of Revelation Christians were the ones told to pay back Babylon violently for all her sins and to destroy her. But that interpretation is completely OUT OF CONTEXT with chapter 18. Verse 4 says "I heard another voice from heaven saying , "come out of her my people...that you may not RECEIVE of her plagues." QUESTION: Were the Christians referred to as HIS PEOPLE, being instructed to punish and plague THEMSELVES if they failed to heed the warning to come out of Babylon? Or were his people who heeded the warning and came out of her being instructed to punished the Christians that did not come out of Babylon along with Babylon? NO. VERSE 6 was simply a statement from God to pay back to Babylon double according to her deeds. It was spoken "FROM HEAVEN" in continuation of verse 4, as a judgment principle of action from heaven decreed for justice by God against Babylon and was as latter showed, to be IMPLEMENTED by God creating the circumstances that would bring about her destruction. This was NOT to be done by Christians.This is further PROVED by VERSE 8 which says that in "ONE DAY" her plagues will come, then the verse goes on to explain what those plagues are. It says those plagues are pestilence and mourning, and famine and to be burnt up with fire! Then it says this is BECAUSE GOD who judges her is STRONG. Therefore, IT IS NOT CHRISTIANS who are being instructed to do the violence. Christians cannot bring about sickness, and famine, and fire to destroy any religious, commercial or political organization world wide. Also they are being told this will happen "IN ONE DAY." They are simply being told what is going to HAPPEN to her will be VERY UNEXPECTEDLY, all of which means it will be brought about by God, and CHRISTIANS are told to stop supporting her or benefiting from her, or they will be sharing in her guilt and not be protected when her judgment comes. VERSE 20 further supports this is a correct interpretation. It says "REJOICE OVER HER (BABYLON'S DESTRUCTION) you heavens AND you SAINTS BECAUSE GOD has PRONOUNCED JUDGEMENT FOR YOU AGAINST HER." Here we see that it was God who carried out the judgment FOR (on behalf of) his saints, NOT the Saints carrying out the judgments of God against Babylon. They were ONLY INSTRUCTED to GET OUT of her. Bart says he wishes Christians would read the book of Revelation more carefully. But Bart, YOU failed BIG TIME to read chapter 18 more carefully!!! So I can't help but question other interpretations you give of the book of Revelation. PLEASE CORRECT THIS ERROR. I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED. I always listen to and buy your discourses, and now I don't know what information to trust that isn't slanted or misrepresented in some way even though you present things sincerely as you see them at the time.

[@danielgibson8799]

0:10-0:13 What’s more important is what Paul thought. i tend to see Paul and John as mostly aligned.

[@Chriliman]

Didn’t Jesus imply his second coming would be like a thief? Maybe stealing back what’s rightfully his?

[@MusicalRaichu]

The very fact that the violence is diametrically opposed to Jesus of the gospels should alert you that your interpretation can't be right. The fantastical images are just that, fantasies that answer the martyrs' prayers for vengeance. But "they did not repent" - that approach does not work. Instead, Jesus enters the battle covered in his own blood and conquering hearts with the sword from his mouth, the gospel. People might want Jesus to be a lion like David, but when you take a closer look, he's actually a slain lamb. He wins through weakness, not force.

[@Sheltowee1775]

I would love a show dedicated to: “Was Jesus Political”. If so, how?

[@pigemperor]

Of all the major faiths Christianity is by far the most left wing. Just re

[@pigemperor]

Acts 2: Awe came upon because many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds[j] to all, as any had need. 46 Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home[k] and ate their food with glad and generous[l] hearts, 47 praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

[@pigemperor]

Seem some scholarship saying that the early church met the anthropological definition of communism. Ie similar to Hunter gatherer societies. Ah the evils of constantine, Augustine many other pos. The prosperity gospel will send many to hell if there is such a place. For me it's not my circus not my monkeys. If there is Bart's in b4 a lot of them. Finding the authentic message is far more important than belief

[@dvdrtrgn]

If you’re a republican it is sure to be a very bitter pill.

[@Valdagast]

It's weird that people think God would need help to overcome His enemies. 23:40 But Jesus also say his disciples will sit on thrones and judge the tribes of Israel. That doesn't sound like servitude.

[@hurdygurdyguy1]

Whenever I hear (especially after some natural disaster or war or calamity) people say "God is in control" my immediate reaction is "Well, He's doing a piss poor job of management then!"

[@emirmusinovic7375]

David Koresh of his time.

[@austinpratt1923]

The very first verse of Revelation discredits all that follows. In no language on Earth is the like of "soon to pass" or "shortly to come" meant to signify any length upwards of 1,700 years!

[@6505evh1]

Revelations is allegorical not literal.

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

yeah dude 👍 but wait that's not all

[@kahlread3791]

The last chapter is at odds with Bart's view. 22:11 and others attest to there being multitudes of sinners left after all is said and done.

[@melissaadams8902]

Megan, that red lip is striking! Thanks for another great video from Dr Ehrman and Megan.

[@FIREBRAND38]

19:00 Something that always bothered me is if there shouldn't be any rick people, who are you supposed to "sell" everything to?

[@FIREBRAND38]

@@DummyAccount-f1q "A mike person?" WTF? Take comfort you'll never get rich as a comedian.And no "Elon people?" Either Thomas Sowell or Ayn Rand would have had a field day with you.

[@MalvinOoi]

JOHN WAS NOT HIS REAL NAME...YOHANNA

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

Ion could be another spelling

[@MybridWonderful]

Christianity is the original Rorschach test, but instead of just saying, "this is what I see", they say, "this is what everyone must see." There is no one more sure of themselves than a Christian interpreting the Bible.

[@briannielson1221]

I disagree. Judaism was that too. A commandment written in stone "don't kill" then "she committed adultery, stone her to death!"

[@Michael_the_Servant]

Judaism was extended into Christianity as a control mechanism over the people. This is why you should be a follower of Jesus and not a Christian.

[@bombfog1]

I’ve always assumed that John was a very charismatic, albeit severely mentally ill man, e.g. personality disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Today he’d be one of those sick cult leaders that we laugh at on Netflix or HBO documentaries. I can’t believe the church fathers didn’t see this.

[@infinite_array]

Or he'd be chronically online, listening to Alex Jones and posting about Q.

[@lawrencerockwood7623]

Bart cannot put it in context. Especially the views a Neoplatonists like Gregory of Nyssa because you can take the anti,I apologist out of evangelicalism, but you can't take the anit- apologist out of evangelism

[@homebug22]

Probably the only reason Revelation became cannon was because this John guy kept showing up to the meetings baked as a cupcake screaming and flailing his arms to the point where everyone else was like, Jesus Christ okay we'll put your friggin book in just get out of here... 😅

[@bombfog1]

@ Ha Ha Ha!

[@notanemoprog]

@@infinite_array Actually far closer to your average "liberal" on Bluesky, complete with advocating for the total destruction of your/their perceived enemies

[@MichaelYoder-e8g]

I heard that John of Patmos may have taken some kind of hallucinogen while he was writing Revelation. When you read it, that could fit - it's a bizarre book

[@kennethklima5342]

Dr. Kipp Davis just posted a video on this theory yesterday. I have not yet watched.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

0:06 The letters that comprise _the book of Revelation_ does not call for the death/destruction of nonbelievers. *If we can be sure about anything concerning the historical Jesus, it is that he was an apocalyptic prophet who delivered the same type of message.*

[@chriswilcocks8485]

Informative as always. I have no idea why the people in charge back in the day,put this in nt.

[@sail4life]

Probably because it was comparatively easy for them to understand, vs the Gospels with all their horribly un-Roman self-sacrifice...

[@MrNtesla3327]

How old is the earliest manuscript of Revelation? I've heard Bart say it was poorly written a handful of times. Could it be that it was sloppily copied over years? How do you know the author was not a good writer?

[@MikeSmith-my1to]

Megan , inquiring minds want to know ,how many pairs of glasses do you have????

[@sail4life]

All of them. She has all of them.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

She said in the last Q&A episode thar she typically has 3-5 pairs