Does Shadow and Bone Have a Race Problem?

[@cherrybepsi]

Ugh it looks like some comments are getting randomly deleted again? So if it seems like I'm ignoring your comment I'm not! KZbin is just bein wonky :'( 💔 Also while I'm here, I've linked a few orgs that are helping to protect Asian lives during this time of heightened anti-Asian violence in the description. I think any amount helps, so don't hesitate to give what you can! ❤

[@laughs2much136]

It's interesting because there is a Shu character, Botkin, who teaches combat to the Grisha in the books. And they included him in one scene in the show. They could have easily included a moment between him and Alina. Great video as always though!

[@cherrybepsi]

Oh that is interesting! Seeing them interact would've been really cool actually 😔

[@bkwrmgal]

Finished my comment only to see yours, sorry :( but yah this could've been fixed with 2-3 more minutes of screen time!

[@MonstorTapok]

I just wanted to add, as a Russian, that when I first saw the trailer and I saw that the main character was Asian, I was really excited, I thought they will include some of the ethnic diversity that Russia has. I know that the books only use Russian words and an idea of imperial Russia, but I saw this show as an opportunity to improve it. so, basically, Russia is a very diverse place, and Russian Empire was even more diverse, cause it was bigger. They could have drawn inspiration from Tatars, Kazakh, Yakut or any other ethnicities, like, create some indigenous tribes for this world's "Siberia", and there was no need to make Alina "an enemy" and have racial slurs thrown at her. but when using Russian culture, they never went deeper than misusing some words and using the pieces of the culture for decoration. I'm not mad at the author or the showrunners. I couldn't care less, honestly, it's their loss. They could have made the world and the plot so much deeper with just a touch more research. there is no "iron curtain" anymore, you can just hire Russian people to help with the research.

[@fluffbowl]

also like the half-white half-Chinese character most explicitly deals with racism but none of the other characters of color do? almost like having the cake of diverse cast but eating it too by not following its logical conclusions bc grisha = racism metaphor is easier?

[@cherrybepsi]

Yeah another comment mentioned this and I absolutely agree! Like Jesper and Inej don't face any discrimination at all? (Aside from a comment from a rich woman calling Inej Zemeni instead of Suli) But it's just so hard to believe and really contributes to this weird racist/post racial society of the show

[@ritiaggarwal995]

uh, if you actually read shadow and bone and six of crows the suli and zemeni are on good terms with the ravkans whereas the shu are not… so the shu are discriminated against while the suli and zemeni are not. the show did a bad job of explaining this but it wasn’t racism :) glossary: suli represents brown people zemeni represents black people shu represents east asian people

[@polin1710]

i really hated how the stunt double for inej was a white girl in brown face and jasper was played by a light skin actor

[@doctortalisman9861]

jesper is actually biracial in the books (iirc it's mentioned that that's why he has grey eyes) but he is nevertheless described as having "deep brown skin" so yeah, i get that. plus, honestly, since it's a detail that has no bearing on the plot and there's such a lack of major dark-skinned characters in mainstream media, i think they could have ditched that in favour of casting a darker-skinned monoracial actor.

[@judywalter9412]

@@doctortalisman9861 jesper looks biracial in the show, i bet kit young (the actor) is biracial

[@yannsteunou-murray9401]

What I thought was telling was Nina was allowed to be fiery and argumentative with Matthias on the subject of Grisha (read: magic) discrimination but Alina is expected to take it in a dignified but silent way. Not saying the latter way is 'shameful' in real life but in this show I feel that the showrunners wanted to make the discrimination Alina faces as 'profound' and shocking to the audience as possible, very much outsider's opinion of racism.

[@cherrybepsi]

Yeah I noticed that! What was especially weird to me was when Alina was talking about how physically looking part Shu made her life that much harder, and then the white Ravkan guy in the carriage is like "of course I understand, I'm Grisha" like that was not the point sir let her speak 💀 And yeah I definitely feel like they threw in some of the racism for semi shock value too

[@yannsteunou-murray9401]

@@cherrybepsi The Shu have always been treated badly in the books, rife with exoticism and Orientalism. I feel making racism explicit here and putting it in the mouths of white characters seemed a way of making it seem like it was THEM being racist and not the creators, kind of blame-shifting as opposed to an actual apology and commitment to being better

[@user-pg9hq1hn4f]

That’s how I see white feminism

[@Gepap3]

@@cherrybepsi I think the point of making her mixed and face discrimination is to show she has always been an outsider in her own society, in a manner that "being grisha" is not in fact comparable. Her powers serve to isolate her further.

[@anastasijamasalusic8824]

I agree!Also,the thing that really annoyed me was how Inej, who is Suli, refused to meet certain Ravkan people in high positions because of everything they did to her people and you could tell how uncomfortable and even frightened she was at the idea alone.And then in the show she willingly walks into Os Alta without so much as a remark about it. They obviously didn't have to talk about it for half an hour but a passing remark would've been nice cause I kept waiting for it to come up but it never did. It annoyed me how the show added racism towards Alina which wasn't in the books,but entirely ignored Inej's story which was in the books

[@cherrybepsi]

OK yes! Jesper and Inej suddenly face no discrimination and have no qualms about Ravkan society at all like I'm supposed to believe the same people that call the Shu "rice eaters" aren't racist to anybody else? 😭

[@adapienkowska2605]

@@cherrybepsi it doesn't work like that. If they had a good relationship with black or Arabic inspired people or these people were a part of their country, and they were fighting with white and mongol inspired countries then yes, it would work like that. Your concept of race is based on yours country and culture history. Countries and cultures with different histories will have a different concept of race.

[@cherrybepsi]

No, the problem is those groups of people DO face discrimination in their world lol, they just didn't show it well aside from a few throwaway comments. It's poor worldbuilding and storytelling. By the way, "Arabic" is a language, not a group of people.

[@peanutbuttercup1914]

Wait, can you tell me where in the books does it show that?

[@anastasijamasalusic8824]

@@peanutbuttercup1914 Crooked Kingdom,idk the exact chapter and I don't have the book on me but it's between the middle and the auction scene,before Nikolai,Zoya and Genya show up and fix Wylan's face among other things

[@hershis__5061]

They didnt add the racism bc jessie is half-chinese. Jessie accepted the role bc she saw Alina was mix-raced. The rest of it tho i agree with, it's true it never got anywhere.

[@cherrybepsi]

Ooh tru I didn't see that initially but yes, they changed the character to be explictly half-Shu and half-Ravkan for the show! That's extra interesting then bc that means they wrote the unexplored race relations into the show on purpose, which really makes me 🤔 Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[@angelnumbers47]

great video again!! i think colorblind casting is a really interesting and complex topic and i wonder about it with marvel stuff too. because they seem hesitant to actually address issues with race but there's increased pressure to do diverse casting, so i wonder if that will become a more common thing in their movies/tv shows too. much to think about

[@cherrybepsi]

yeah! and tbh i feel like if they're not gonna do a good job of addressing it (like in bridgerton) i would rather they just keep it vague 🤡

[@iluvdrakeandjosh]

It really is more grating because it poses questions with no actual answer or exploration into identity or any full shu people it just seems to be there to impose trauma on and give """depth""" on the characters of color. It's very empty and uncomfortable.

[@flowervagabond1101]

it really seemed like they were going for some empowering plotline concerning Alina's mixed race that didn't exist in the books but I honestly feel like they could've just left it out if they weren't going to have any sort of acknowledgement from people other than Alina or like, any sort of actual resolve of the racial slurs & microaggressions she gets thrown at her every episode. the show, so far, is one of my favorite book to tv adaptations I've seen, but the half-baked empowerment it ended with based on Alina's struggles with being part Shu could've just... not been there if they were gonna do it like that 😣 also the comments toward Inej, the white lady assuming she was Zemeni bc she's brown then the Grisha calling her Suli trash just felt like cheap attempts to reason out that the white people are just casually racist whenever they wanna be, and nothing ever comes of it, not even vocal protests? idk sorry for writing an essay in your comment section but I appreciate your video and your thoughts a lot, this is something that's been frustrating me since before the show aired and will continue to ig

[@cherrybepsi]

Yeah like it feels like they just had no asian or mixed asian people in the writer's room? Which is weird bc I feel like I heard that the show-runner was half-Asian 😩 But yesss this is def one of my fav (if not THE fav) book adaptations so far 😌💖

[@Aishyo]

I've only watched half of episode 1 but they really called her that wow

[@cherrybepsi]

I knowww like 😩

[@sarahshhb]

Lmaooo the rice eater comment took me out like ya I eat rice white boy and what about it🤨 the racist will jus come for anything likeee

[@cherrybepsi]

It was SO weird and out of place I was like HUH??? 😭

[@belle-ashton2167]

Conclusion : we need more Shu and Zemini characters, and also a script that is more mature and shows subtlety. I agree with everything you said ! I would also really love to know more about Alina’s parents, since they were a mixed couple in a war-torn country, it would be so interesting to know more about them!

[@cherrybepsi]

Yeah I'm kind of sad that her parents are probably gonna be a victim of YA protagonist syndrome (never to be heard from again) bc it would be interesting to see some of Alina's background!

[@lockheart619]

"like do u not eat rice bro?" 3:05 That sent me 😭.

[@PherseIssac]

wow another great video from you! i couldn't stop thinking about this watching SAB like it felt like every episode we had to have a Racism Moment with Alina which tbh felt very close to real anti-Asian racism for something they never really addressed. im really happy we had a diverse cast but it feels weird to point to issues of racism that exist irl (as opposed to the fantasy anti-magic stuff) and then just move on without actually dealing with how Alina feels/how her companions feel about the issue

[@EveTheLightning]

I litterally got called "rice eater" as a slur at school in my childhood, so I actually really felt that scene...

[@cuttlefish1801]

This is the first of your videos I've seen, and I'm glad I watched it! You provide some really valuable insights here. I think the issue with this show's treatment of race (by no means exclusive to it) is that it unintentionally takes a primordialist view of race and ethnicity. The position of S&B and a lot of other speculative fic is that racism is an outgrowth of the visible differences between us and the majority, when in reality, it's more frequently linked to the myths that have been constructed around us as groups - that we are innately weak, duplicitous, spiritually inferior, whatever. It's not a series of judgements on our physical appearances (monolids) or perceived behavior (eating rice, apparently?), but what the majority believes are our innate traits and values. Color-blindness fails because it attempts to discount an entire collective mythos based on the belief that it's possible to eliminate racism by ignoring surface-level differences. I'd love to hear any recommendations you have of fiction that deals with this theme more accurately!

[@cherrybepsi]

Oooh yes that's SUCH a good point!! That's also why the depictions of racism felt so off in show - it focused exclusively on these diluted external displays of racism without really addressing the root causes and beliefs at their core. Thank you for leaving this comment, I really appreciated your perspective! As for media that addresses the racism more effectively, not much comes to mind atm honestly (which is so sad 😩) but if you like science fiction, I think that NK Jemisin's Broken Earth series addresses it pretty accurately with how the orogenes are perceived and treated by other characters in the books!

[@reyl6152]

Always love your videos, great job yet again 💖

[@cherrybepsi]

thank you!! 🤧💖💞

[@lovefromwonderland]

I feel like the racism was unnecessary because they don’t really go anywhere with it. It’s just sort of there. It’s like the racism in Harry Potter. They mention it, but it really adds nothing to the story. Shadow and Bone and Bridgerton would’ve been better if it was all colorblind in my opinion.

[@celestlian]

This is such a good video! I've been in the grishaverse fandom since 2019, so I definitely was cautious when starting to watch the show. But when I saw all of that stuff you talked about I was like ?!?! Like lmao Shu Han and Ravka have been at war for centuries. I'm pretty sure it was because of colonisation as well (on the wikipage for the sikurzoi mountains (I think?) I found out one of the Lanstov kings lost the Sikurzoi to Shu Han. These are just rambles LMAO but it's something to think about, writing race without racism is possible. Like idk why Alina wasn't allowed to learn about her culture in S1. I just hope they do better in the next season, now that the cast have finished filming S2.

[@ariannemartel9686]

I actually think they did it well in some aspects. I love the fact that they are straying from the overly simplistic childish idea of racism of "we just don't like people who don't look like us" and made the reason for the racism very clear and realistic and historically accurate - WAR. The fact that Ravka is at war with 2 nations simultaneously, one with the Fjerdians that are white and look like them, and also with the Shu who are Asian and are visibly different and therefore, though they probably hate both equally, its easier to identify a Shu person among them and show hatred towards them (becuase of the war) than a half Fjerdan/Ravka person. Also them being mostly indifferent to other races who they are not at war with is also very realistic. Since Ravka is loosely based on Russia, these were the most accurate concepts they managed to pilfer from actual Russian history. The rest of the "Russian" stuff they tried to integrate was done very badly and offended many Russian people. Not everything has to be American/Brittish style racism which is what you are used to seeing in Hollywood. Also the idea that a person who experiences racism will automatically never be racist herself or will easily bond with someone else of a different race who also experiences racism is too American Disney. Hurt people hurt people. If Zoya did experience discrimination in Ravka her being the same way towards Alina is a lot more human and realistic than them bonding over it or something. I do hope we get to see more Shu people and their country in the future seasons. I agree that seeing so few of them made little sense.

[@Ash_W04]

I think it would’ve been a better idea for them to use race in a way that we wouldn’t understand. In our perception of reality, we see skin color as different races (and occasionally Italian/Irish people as non-white; however, this was only a problem in Europe not so much in America or in the last 40 years). They should’ve had a hair color or eye color or something else that we view trivial as race and had the perception of skin color as non-existant. It would’ve shown how foolish the creation of race is and made us confused trying to understand how they even are telling one race apart from the other. Of course in a story set under our own perception, you shouldn’t ignore the creation of race based on skin color, but in order to deconstruct and critique the concept of race, it would’ve worked perfectly for this fantasy story.

[@Ash_W04]

Possible preface: Race is a social grouping of people based on biological features and while these different features do exist, race itself is constructed through the collective perspective of society and doesn’t exist outside that perspective (as in, races don’t exist within reality). It doesn’t have a consistent basis and is consistently changing (as previously mentioned, Irish and Italian people were once considered to not be white despite everyone currently perceiving them to be). This is more of a basis knowledge incase anyone hasn’t taken a sociology class or hasn’t looked into abstract topics such as race, ethnicity, etc

[@Ash_W04]

And yet another disclaimer: When I use “exist” I am referring to something that occurs in any perception (race isn’t real but it exists and therefore does have negative impacts on those deemed inferior) while “real” is in reference to something that exists throughout reality, whether your perception acknowledges it or not. Something that is real does exist but not everything that exists is real (Spongebob exists but isn’t real)

[@judywalter9412]

Wait did you say irish and Italians are not white? Or did i miss understood you?

[@jennynguyen8295]

Girllll you put into words the weird feeling I had when I watched ep 1 of the show. Like the fact that they made a new slur for the show 🥴 personally I was like wtf is this??? rice eater?? these shows really gotta do better by us

[@cherrybepsi]

For sure!! Esp cuz the show is so great otherwise like @Netflix just hire more writers of color pls

[@jennynguyen8295]

@@cherrybepsi for me it feels like their diversity policy is just "add and stir in" without much further thinking. I would really love these shows so much more if they actually went the mile and hired writers of color to address these issues rather than like... not talking about them or making a shallow argument like what Bridgerton did. So thank you for making this video! I always look forward to your content 🥰

[@bkwrmgal]

Yes, I agree that S&B doesn't go far enough in it's explanations of the in universe origins of various racisms, nor have any of the coded white characters do any work on that. Bridgerton does actually give you an alt-history which aligns fairly well with real history but it's only obvious upon second viewing (or maybe only to me as one of my qualifications is in history + part-Brit). Neither goes deep enough, for sure, though at least Bridgerton attempts to ... though again I think a LOT of it is so subtle that non-UK viewers won't register it. That said S&B the Grisha hand-to-hand combat trainer is a ShuHan refugee, apparently it's more obvious in the books ... I only found out because the actor is a friend of a BIPOC actor friend. Hopefully they make this more obvious in future seasons. Relatedly - What are your thoughts on the Kung Fu remake?

[@mirakhan1525]

A compliment trying to be a slur. Why yes I am. Thank you!

[@cherrybepsi]

we are all rice eaters 😌🙏🏽

[@sarahshhb]

also your point about wite being like... everyone is equal in my eyes🤪 like damn thanks for single handedly ending racism and ignoring the problem at hand

[@tanithlow8435]

Interesting perspectives and good points, thanks a lot for this video! :)

[@waltermanson999]

AMAZING video !! "The Oscars were last night so I was busy... watching Divergent" lol !

[@NotJoegoldberg]

I CANT WAIT FOR YOU TO BLOW UP

[@belle-ashton2167]

How Netflix handled representation in S&B is one of the many things that disappointed me while watching it. I’m starting to think that it was an implicit hint of a political statement, rooted with embarrassing historical memories, along with this undying social dilemma. I personally think that they really didn’t do the East (and South) Asian representation justice, when only one young character is of mixed East Asian descent. It’s thus a token character who has to bear all this - unnecessary - disgusting racism and discrimination on her own. It’s clearly unfair to fans of East Asian descent and mixed people. Also, there is more than China and Mongolia in East Asia, so why not including characters of Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese ext. descent? Come on Netflix writers, use your imagination, create new names and lands that would represent these countries. NETFLIX, REPRESENTATION SHOULD MEAN RESPECT, especially in a fictional story, with fictional characters, AND a fictional world. Using war as an excuse to execute *repeated* racist slurs is just awful and disrespectful, it made me loose hope in human decency from the industry of entertainment. Words can kill as much as actions. Netflix needs to respect its viewers in order to avoid controversy. Or better still, to put Human beings in an equal footing on screen.

[@arinaarina3175]

Not like to be THAT person, but the author of the books and the produces of the show benefit from the cultures of ethnic groups living in Russia and post-soviet region. And all I see in the comments is absolute ignorance and the offers of people to include literally ANY ethnicity in a show expect from the real ones that actually live and breath in these areas. You want Asians? - Siberian or sublaponoid-looking tatars, yakuts, buryats, Tuvinians, Bashkirs, Kalmyks. You want caucasians? (Not the ones you all are used to think about. The caucasians - the people living around Caucasus) - you have chechens, azerbaijanians, Armenians. And yeah. Russians themselves too. There are so many cultural things taken from all our people in these books and Netflix series. And most of the times they are so fuc*d up that I just don’t know wether to laugh or to cry. The point is - you benefit from our cultures - you at least show the representation of those people who you benefit from. The people are so ignorant about our entire region that every time you go abroad and tell people that you come from Russia they ask you questions like: but where were you actually born? Or where were your parents born? But why are your eyes are like this? Or why is your skin colour like this? And when you name them your ethnicity they are like: oh wtf is that? So maybe when your base your show on the culture of those people you actually represent them too? I am not against of any other nationalities. Really. Diversity is cool. And it is an imaginative world. But what this series is showing to me is an Americanized version of diversity with just the most known world nationalities they know. Zero research. Zero effort.

[@belle-ashton2167]

@@arinaarina3175 Your comment is informative and I hope that they will fix some errors because some things in the show were very cringe as you said. I think it needs better script writers and historians or specialists that would check and correct the errors in order to not insult anyone.

[@arinaarina3175]

@@belle-ashton2167 I'm really glad the information I stated was informative to you! :) yes, I really hope that they will make a research and fix all those problems regarding no representation of post-soviet nationalities from which cultures they benefit, and also fix their approach to the characters they already have. Without just creating new racist slurs for them and thinking they can get away with this "representation" of poc life obstacles.

[@hershis__5061]

Also yes it's never adressed???

[@fttoma]

🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡