DOG TRAINERS VS. BEHAVIORISTS

[@chriso3479]

Well said. My vet said my very active Lab needed to be on Prozac because the two FF PP trainers they recommend couldn't help with behavioral problems. It took TWC trainer to solve issues almost immediately.

[@pothszabina]

Great story! Love it

[@barbt416]

Fell into this trap for about 8 months. I never felt that it was working but based on information from several vets I was willing to give this alternative a try with our over reactive boy. Thank God I finally pulled the plug on all the meds and the Don't Say No training. Our boy is MUCH BETTER thanks to the correct training and attitude.

[@annedunwell5509]

I have been a dog trainer since I could walk and my mum was one before that . Despite living with more rehab dogs than most people will ever touch - Recently local behaviourists have been quoted telling people not to use me m, as I had no formal qualifications. So I did them . Using one of the UKs most acknowledged organisations. Did I learn of course I did . Did I learn anything I didn’t already apply without labelling it - NOPE ! I also did not agree with their ethics one bit and despite spending £2000 plus I will not ever advertise my qualification or their logo ! I’m a behaviourist to prove a point but I’m a dog trainer to do my job and try to save dogs . As always Ivan you hit the nail on the head x

[@coyoteinthepool]

Interesting! That is very cool journey you went on, and I totally agree, formal qualifications don't have to mean anything! As you pointed out, you already knew all of that informally! I am curious how the techniques you learned were all the same as you were already using, but that the ethics were different? Or do you also use other techniques that are outside of their ethics and not included in the course?

[@j1massie]

Thank you for stepping up as a leader in the dog training community to tell some hard truths. You are speaking out for millions of people, and their dogs, who do not have the platform that you do. Thank you for having the courage to take the blow back that will surely come your way. ❤

[@CharlieTheCaneCorso]

Always honest, Ivan is the man

[@shepherds.pie.youtube]

He not be doing it for the sake of us trainers worldwide, but I respect him for taking the hit and spreading truth in a world of lies and misinformation.

[@PsicologiaCaninaComportamiento]

Yes! This is something I tried to talk with my dog's vet, but they just don't want to understand. Well said. But i dont agree with behaviorists being 100% incompetent and trainers havind a "deep understanding". Of course this may be different between countries but normally (where I live) dog trainers know how to change behavior, but not always explain it. They know the applied part of the study of behavior. While behaviorists can functionally explain behavior (normal and problematic) and generate knowledge in the laboratory, and that's the basis for behavior modification techniques. While it is true that a student of behavior may lack the techniques to modify, his work is different and needs a deeper understanding of behavior. (I repeat, It depends on the academic training necessary to be a dog trainer in different countries)

[@dr.scottsurasky2511]

Agreed on all points. Drugs are often misused on animals and people because they correct a symptom while ignoring the underlying problem. Putting the best interest of the patient - animal or human, must always be the paramount goal in our approach.

[@LauraHopkinsCDL]

BRILLANTLY SAID AND NEEDED SAYING. Ivan you hit on big truths here. Putting dogs on drugs rather than training them is malpractice ,I totally agree. I agreed with every word you said and i have trained dogs from a 6 year old kid, so that is 51 years of experience. I do not like the way things are going at all. Thank you very much for this video, You articulate your thoughts extremely well. Again, thank you .

[@gretchenkennedy1454]

its rather unbelievable what appears to be taking place in the dog/human world. Thank you for once again speaking the truth. I have shared this on my Facebook page as a small gesture of support for balanced training.

[@joyfulk9services]

Thanks for this! I am so sick of the "you know who's" advising to see a ventrinary behaviorist prior to a balanced or alternative trainer... medications can sometimes be helpful short term for some breakthroughs however, nearly everything can be trained and managed without them. You always chime in with fantastic insight, after being quiet for a while 🤣 thanks so much 🙏

[@sanxac]

the behaviorists are the ones prescribing meds so of course they would want to bypass any actual training.

[@susanleclair2668]

We all need to continue to stand together & educate & problem solve together.I agree completely & having most of my career professionally training dogs I speak w,/ experience.

[@lindaporter2220]

Thanks Ivan for all you do for us trainers and dogs in general.

[@carter1487]

Thank you Ivan!

[@NotFalling4it]

This is exactly what I have been wondering. I see so many people advertising themselves as behaviourists and the vibe is that they’re superior to trainers. Now I know. Thanks.

[@IngridRosendahl]

Just watched your podcast and agreed 1000% . I am lucky to sometimes work with a behaviourist, who has dog training experience and puts the dog first...always.

[@kellyhayes]

it's unreal the number of dogs who are on Prozac and or trazadone daily 😢

[@kerichristian475]

I highly oppose these meds for dogs.

[@cappyrackley8824]

Wonderfully said!

[@DerpTheory]

Thank you Ivan. I only hope one day we can work together hand in hand with the force free community. While they do make good points about the emotional cognisance in training, their complete disregard to aversives is worrisome for the future of dogs.

[@joeferraro1594]

Well said Ivan your right to the point!! Your a unbelievable dog trainer I am going to pur some of your videos thank you for what you do!

[@Shuford_K9_Services]

Bravo! Bravo! Phenomenal Explanation!

[@MarkandTreat]

Very well said! Thank you for making this video!

[@fullofshift]

Thanks for your work in this area. I'm inspired by your honesty and hard work.

[@sahyadrik9]

Thanks sir 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@houndsknight]

Dear Ivan I’m a behaviorist working with dogs. A behaviorist is a person who uses Applied Behavioral Analysis to describe and solve behavioral problems and performs behavioral modification or/and cognitive-behavioral therapy. The theory behind such actions is called a cognitive-behavioral school of psychology. There is little difference in how you work with dogs and humans because some principles are the same while some can be easily adjusted. I started as work psychologist, switched my interest to sport and military psychology and then switched to working with dogs. In my work I often use protocols designed for autistic or intellectually challenged children and/or for trauma victims (like, say, soldiers). People who you refer to as “behaviorists” (probably because they often call themselves so) are, in fact, canine etiologists. Canine etiology is a narrow comparative discipline that records differences in behaviors between canine and different species, mostly primates. They are not behaviorists, they are not psychologists (even though they often call themselves “animal psychologists” as well). They are frauds. They hijack terms just as they try to hijack a position of authority in dog training. Dog trainers are people who teach dogs useful skills using the same techniques as behaviorists. I always liked to watch dog trainers because it helps understand principles used in ABA/CBT. I can make a lesson on worker management or on communicating with a child out of a video of You training a dog. I can practice ABA by describing what a dog trainer does in ABA terms (“avoidance learning”, “suppression”, “positive reinforcement” and such). A dog trainer does not need to know all the theory in cognitive-behavioral psychology, in fact even I don’t know all of it despite using it in a broad spectrum of approaches and applications. A canine etiologist knows shit. They speculate that when a dog yawns he tells you this or that, argue if dogs establish hierarchies and protest when you hug your dog because according to them the dog is not supposed to like it. From behavioral perspective this knowledge is overrated: I don’t need dog’s approval to condition it, I don’t care about his alleged political views because I’m not his equal, and I can condition your dog to love hugs. Per definition canine etiologist hates anyone performing behavioral modification: a behaviorist or trainer just the same, because they believe in delusion that dogs have som sort of natural state and when left to their own devices will self-heal. Where I live canine etiologist control almost every shelter and oust every trainer or behaviorist which results in mounting behavioral issues and extreme dog abuse. This is why I’d ask you to refrain from calling those impostors “behaviorists” just as nobody should call them “trainers”.

[@thankmelater1254]

I'll test you, if you don't mind. I have adopted a dog that had severe fear out of doors after dark, and of loud noises, and both together left him almost paralyzed with fear that took more than a day to subside. He would not show any interest in any sort of play. I saw a Larry Krohn video where an anxious dog he was boarding would not play and only wanted to escape to where she last saw her owner. He let her run to end of leash, gently tugged and she returned only to run again and again to hit end of leash and return. Then he pushed her around on the sides and she changed and showed interest in a toy and was over the anxiety. Exactly the same thing happened with my dog after about ten runs and returns. I noticed he then was wagging his tail slightly on the return and then tucking it again when he ran. So I pushed him around, ran about two steps, and he showed interest in a ball that was on the ground, I kicked it and went for it... and then he became ferocious on retrieves, after the next day. Larry never explained that behavior modification. Can you? Thank you!

[@thankmelater1254]

Forgot to add that he lost all fear of outdoors at night after that evening.

[@Sherralyn]

What education would a canine etiologist have??

[@chantalb5227]

This is a great way to Define the current "players" behind what is happening in our industry

[@pittymama4500]

Thank you for this clarification. Unfortunately nobody has a way to determine whether someone is an actual behaviorists and sadly like you said the control that these fraudulent people have is massive and dangerous.

[@juleswins3]

Ivan you are absolutely correct but unfortunately the behaviorists have the ear of legislators or are working to gain that advantage because they are “scientists.” 🙄 They are also extremely well funded. It will be very difficult to fight them but hopefully not impossible.

[@jhutch1050]

How do we get in on that, that might be a key!

[@juleswins3]

@@jhutch1050 That’s a good question! Protect the Harvest is an all-encompassing organization that fights animal rights legislation but it is geared more towards farm and ranch animals. I wonder if the AKC even has a program that is pro-trainer? They could be the strongest pro-trainer voice but I have my doubts how far they will go.

[@thecawckiestking]

They have plenty of time to buzz around in the legislator's ears because they're not out there actually working with dogs that they claim to be experts about.

[@raven4720]

well done Ivan!

[@lindamcmanus5807]

Very well said

[@MelissaVelezS]

Thank you Ivan for being out voice!!

[@iqdog]

I think a good example of this is if i go to a specialist and i tell him i am depressed and i don’t know how to make friends or date or find a job or i can’t keep a job, etc. do instead of drugging me the specialist assigns a coach to me to teach new how to make friends, how to be more independent, how to find a job and keep it, how to cope or learn replacement behaviors. Then there’s no drugs necessary. And many times even if a dog receives medication they still need to be trained anyway on addition to the meds.

[@Dnk9]

Finally well explained. Thanks for this

[@shepherds.pie.youtube]

I agree completely. It's been something on my mind for a long time.

[@jpdogtraining]

Well said sir! Completely agree.

[@hollissensenig1775]

Thank you for the video!

[@dog-training]

This is an important message, and I agree with it. Everyone who works with animals should understand what their strengths and weaknesses are. We must be honest about what our training and education included and what it didn't, and collaborate with other experts whenever a problem falls outside our expertise. For example, I can't comprehensively diagnose medical conditions and would never try. When I see a dog client with a sudden onset of aggression that doesn't appear to have any explanation, I often recommend a thyroid test at a vet. It could have a medical reason. At least we should rule it out. But I am a professional dog trainer and have worked with many dogs. I know what is and isn't 'normal' dog behavior. A veterinary behaviorist doesn't have that experience and barely interacts with dogs. Who can better assess a dog's behavior as normal or abnormal? Any collaboration should be driven by a desire to help dog owners live harmoniously with their dogs. That includes training what can be trained (do and don't do alike), managing what must be managed, treating (medically) what can be treated, and understanding the difference between these things. As Ivan said, the ideology pushed by the American Veterinary Association in a field they hardly know anything about is a huge problem. Two quotes come to mind concerning this: "The worst dog I have ever met was trained by a behavioral psychologist" - Dr. Jordan Peterson "One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right, but not knowing enough to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for sharing you thoughts too

[@californiadreamer2580]

Perfectly stated!

[@kristinschofield5523]

Hit the nail on the head 😊

[@Chrisha80]

I live in Norway and own a malinois. I have NEVER heard of dogs using antidepressants 😳😳 Some maybe gets calming drugs on new years but nothing else as far as I'm aware of....

[@kassandrasilver]

I'm with you on this issue, Ivan, 100%!!! I am 73. I got my first dog at about 3. I have almost always had a dog or two in my life. I have trained many of them to do a variety of things, but I am not a "Dog Trainer" per se, because with only one exception, I have trained my own dogs, not other people's dogs. You have an enormous portfolio of experience training your own dog's and dogs for many other people, dealing with many breeds, many issues, and for a vast variety of applications. You know whereof you speak, imho. Honestly, if the Veterinary Industry combined with the Pharmaceutical Industry WAS able to convince me that the only way a dog of mine's behaviour could be controlled--is through a drug, I would put that dog down. Such an animal (which I haven't met yet) would be the product of either poor breeding, bad training, or perhaps a disease, or a head injury (or maybe all of the above). Either way, if I couldn't achieve acceptable behaviour through my simple training methods, which I do not consider at all harsh, I would put the dog down, rather than dump it in a shelter, pass it along to some fool, or medicate it. For certain, I would not breed it! This Positive Only and Force Free Camp is the outgrowth, in my opinion, of a certain way of looking at the human-pet relationship that I have seen sprout up in AKC and Chewy and so on. It is the "Pet Parent" phenomena--which I think is absolutely CRAZY and destructive to common sense. People who, for whatever reason, see their dogs as "children" are driving this nonsense. I adore my dogs (Three Belgian Malinois), but they are definitely NOT human children. They do not sleep in my bed with me. I do not try to put dresses or costumes on them. Or bows on their heads. They are partners and buddies, for sure, but I'm the human. They are the dogs. Period. I take care of them in my way. They take care of me in theirs. Everyone has a job to do. Dogs have their own idea of "pecking order", and of what is and is not acceptable behaviour on the part of other dogs, and especially of human children. "Pet parents" are astounded when little "fur baby" Muffin is allowed on the bed, as an example, and then rips the face off of a grandchild who tries to get on the bed. Guess which one of the "babies" winds up in a kill shelter?

[@WR4SSE]

Couldnt agree more

[@SyedAli-ev3ou]

Well balanced objective analysis in the best interest of the dogs. I have a GSD and you can only understand this by training and owning these types of dog breeds.

[@jang2470]

Well said and to the point.

[@BrooksStyle]

Love it ❤

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you

[@scottmaclean9607]

100% agree!

[@Thoriumdogsport]

Very well said! Please share this video! ❤

[@dragonryderslair]

I have worked with assessment for police K9 taught obedience and protection. Thanks speaking rational truth. My analogy to positive only trainers is no different than the never correct your child parents. The child realizes early on that there are NO boundries or limitations on what they want to do because there is no correction or consequences for bad behavior. Dogs, kids or any animal need to have boundries in order to live in a respectful society. Boundries consist of reinforcing good behavior and using APPROPRIATE corrections as a balance for negative behavior. The goal is mutual respect and engagement in an equally rewarding relationship.

[@alexMachinist]

100% right

[@markmclherron2885]

I agree with you Ivan 100%. The only thing that should be on people's mind is the best outcome for the dog thats in front of you and drugs don't work it's just another money making scheme for drug companies. I'm not saying that there isn't dogs out there that need some help from them but a wide spread approach is wrong it's the same as Nurturing it doesn't sort out any issues.

[@InterdyneInternationalK-9]

I hope that we can All work together hand in hand because the "funny" thing is : More often than not. IF you go into a Fish Store... Chances are They are most likely going to try and Sell you a Fish 🐟

[@zdenkafialova8727]

Thank you for saying this. There is a big distinction between a rainbow land where we can use all the time and only positive reinforcement effective enough for the dog and the handler. Yet, I am appalled hearing that they drug dogs? Like I guess kids (that I heard about)? Its a kid/dog that needs some kind of action-care to work with his energy, lets drug it co its easier? You said it right, its malpractice and in my opinion abuse. You WORK with what you got, or you give it away to someone who can and will appreciate it.

[@PARoth2011]

Agreed and well said! Just because someone gets a PhD in astronomy does not mean that same person can build a high tech telescope..ha, maybe not even a low tech one! I’m curious, does the person who has a PhD in psychiatry, have the skills to teach young autistic children, schizophrenic adults and jailed juveniles improved behaviors for a better life … or will they only prescribe mood altering medications? Pointing out the lazy, lucrative way dogs are being medicated rather than trained successfully really hits home.

[@jailenbailey]

I wonder, maybe there is a motive behind seeking Veterinary behaviorists over a dog trainer who could solve something that may not be so complex? Hmm. I wonder, how are the sales going to look for anxiety and calming medication for dogs if the FF crowd succeeds in their goal to ban tools and rid balanced training? Seems fishy to me.

[@pittymama4500]

These behaviorist are reaponsible for alot of dog deaths.

[@gnrriffs]

Its Not about helping dogs...... Its about making them self feel good. PP & FF make the person FEEl great and that is all they care about, They get dogs Rescue dogs to say " its a rescue you know" then they tell you a sad story and say "its only good stuff for them now".... But its Not good they treat the dog like a baby and make them Crazy ... then medicate , then give up and try all over again. Rescue is BIG business re homing dogs 7 , 8 times getting cash each time so promoting pp & ff is a win for the business sorry i mean rescue center.

[@nelsonflores4469]

❤❤❤

[@misszoeyblake1317]

I was recommended anxiety meds for vet visits because my dog doesn't like strangers touching her and focused on her. Thos didnt work. Training did.

[@theconspiracyfactualist.144]

I can't help thinking of the similarities with human's. Doctors are very keen to hand out antidepressants etc for people who may not be functioning correctly in everyday life for a number of reasons. We all know what a full and functional day with plenty of fresh air and exercise does for us. Our dogs need the same,they are sensitive creatures just like us human beings. All though I've found them to be far more intelligent than most of the people I come across.

[@cherylmillard2067]

Yes, and all those kids on ADHD meds without further evaluation. I can understand medicating a dog for seizures or physical problems but the default for behavioral issues should be a balanced trainer, not the pen and Rx pad.

[@thenaturecoastdogtrainer8258]

🙌🙌👊🏻

[@Dog-trainer-ishan]

“Veterinarians should stick to their job of caring for animals’ health and not step into dog training. Many behavioral issues in dogs come from mishandling during vet visits or unnecessary medications prescribed for high energy, when the dog really just needs exercise and play. Behaviorists may know animal behavior, but they often can’t fix it-good trainers design specific plans to address issues and teach life skills. Vets should stop claiming expertise in training and focus on their own field, as the public trusts their advice too easily.”

[@DaleMcCluskey]

This statement doesn't even make sense. Perhaps the fact that Balanced and Force Free Trainers are in agreement with the exact same idea makes more sense.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Animal Veterinary Behaviorist are not good dog trainers. They should not be taking part of establishing training protocols. How’s that ?

[@jhutch1050]

Can someone /some of us rooted and founded in training, real life, experience become veterinary behaviorists grounded in actual science and fight the peers? 🤔 They are biased as it is to anyone not of their level of "education", self ascribed prestige, associations etc. Lobbying (which I find morally offensive) is the stupid key to fighting legislative ears leaning the wrong way. We need real life degree'd vet behaviorists against ideological alignment to fight effectively is my curiosity and thought.

[@douglaschacho7501]

100 % agree. Let trainers train. Vets and Drs want to treat with drugs as first choice.

[@gerrardflannigan3773]

Just watched you entire talk with Micheal Shikashio. If you believe that there is war going on between veterinary behaviorists and dog trainers, then why haven't you had a podcast with a veterinary behaviorist? What you are looking for is a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB) rather than the AVSAB.

[@MK9International]

👍🏻🐕🤝

[@gracemercy5901]

🥰😁😇🤗🤑😙🥰 THANKS "TAKIS SHELTER" U. TUBE LOVE

[@gerrardflannigan3773]

Veterinary Behaviorists are not your enemy! The AVSAB (a special interest group of veterinarians and animal behavior phDs and not exclusively veterinary behaviorists) have reviewed the available research to come up with a position statement. The European Veterinary Society of Clinical Etghology came out for Ecollar bans in their position statement but not all aversives; they advise using a spray collar to control barking instead (still an aversive tool). For the most part, clinical veterinary behaviorists do not train dogs but deal with psychological cases. Although you may not believe it, they do know their lane but their goal is for the welfare of pets. Veterinary behaviorist's refer to trainers all the time (if fact some have them on their premises). If you believe the research is bogus, then play the game. Find someone you trust with some behavior credentials who knows how to write a scientific paper (Dr. Cottee from the Black Braken Kennel podcast comes to mind as she appears passionate), to write a review paper challenging the narrative and the studies and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal. If you want to change the narrative, give veterinary behaviorists a reason to accept your view!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Unfortunately they have made themselves an enemy. The mission statement of AVSAB is anything but scientific.

[@TopDogDXB]

@@IvanBalabanov "There is no evidence that aver- sive methods are more effective than reward-based methods in any context" If they were scientific they wouldn't put a statement like this. This would have required that they extensively tested every context, which is probably impossible and I am sure they haven't done. They do show a clear bias saying the reward based methods are the ultimate tool for everything

[@kerichristian475]

Outrageous, there is yrs of supporting research promoting psychiatric drugs for dogs that is absolutely non applicable to the issues in my opinion.

[@brucemacwatters9221]

Although i agree with you to some extend on the medication, the same could be said for your use of prongs and e collars. Why don’t you say what’s really bothering you , the recent law in England that will be banning e collars.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Agree or disagree that’s your own choice. This message although somewhat related to the global problem on bans is a stand alone issue for the dog training industry !

[@ivbqwljrf234]

Same with humans. Same with humans.

[@btp9716]

None of this makes any sense. Look at how you've created an imagined enemy to go to war with. Nobody is stopping you from doing your work. If the market for your services gets crowded with competitors, that's life. If your clients choose the positive approach, then that's your opportunity to grow, but complaining like this is so unproductive and unprofessional. You're trying to incite anger instead of just competing in the marketplace like a professional would.

[@cicii1312]

This comment doesn’t make any sense. 😂😅😬

[@thecawckiestking]

Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.

[@gerrardflannigan3773]

You are absolutely right!! Veterinary behaviorists don't care what Ivan believes. The argument right now is between force-free trainers and Ivan (and other trainers who use aversive tools) not veterinary behaviorists. A position statement is just that. The veterinary behaviorists are not forcing you to follow the statement. That Ivan is someone else.

[@IvanBalabanov]

@@gerrardflannigan3773 you watched the video but missed my message. yes unfortunately anima behaviorists *are using their titles to dictate how we should train dogs. If they were to do their part and try to dictate and have upper hand this video would not be made

[@IvanBalabanov]

From what you wrote it is clear you have no idea what is going on. Listen to the message and you at least should get it that what I am saying is a *response to the war the animal veterinary behaviorists and the force free have been engaging with dog trainers for the last 20 years!