Doug & Hoovie: Will Car Enthusiasts Care About EVs?

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Hoovie and Doug talk electric vehicles! Today Hoovie and I are talking about the idea of enthusiast EVs. What will be important in the future with enthusiasts and electric vehicles? Will we even like them? Tell us in the comments what you think about EVs and what you would like to see in an enthusiast EV.
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00:00 THIS...
00:25 CARS & BIDS!!!
01:13 Ford Lightning
03:07 Will We Like EVs?
04:21 Tavarish and the McLaren P1
06:15 Rimac Nevera
07:13 Porsche Taycan
09:11 Tesla Roadster
10:37 The First iPhone Doug Used
12:19 Are There Differences Between EVs?
14:13 Hummer EV
16:26 Ioniq 5
17:38 Outro
@HooviesGarage @tavarish
#dougdemuro #supercars #electricvehicle #tesla

[@TheShinyShow]

Nice to see two people with different opinions chat about something rather than the exact same opinions

[@RedLP5000S]

Love your Loch Ness Green Jem, bro.🤘🏻

[@acfiv1421]

Doug has a really weird idea about conservatives are... He seems to think they all drive pickups, like to roll coal and have those metal bull balls hanging on the trailer hitch.

[@chargehanger]

So will there be 1) car enthousiasts 2) EV enthousiasts -- get a Chargehanger

[@Topofthelinetommy]

I'd rather people be honest that EV owners are destroying car culture and they don't save environment.

[@LittleAnastasia...]

​@@Topofthelinetommy MORE DRILLING MORE MINING MORE FRACKING! BAN THE COMMUNIST EPA WHAT DO WE WANT MORE OF? ASBESTOS AND LEAD. WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW! DEAR TRUMP WILL GIVE MAKE IT HAPPEN! NO TO CANCER CAUSING WINDMINE BIRD KILLERS!!! NO TO SOLAR PANELS THAT DRAIN THE SUN !!!!!!!

[@ConnorHammond]

I think car enthusiasts are going to become more similar to watch enthusiasts. We have the smart watch, but all the enthusiasts want the intricate, mechanical hearts. It's not about it's stats on paper, it's how fun or uniquely it gets to those stats.

[@slopedarmor]

How many people with a mechanical watch do u know? For me thats zero. I do have a quartz one tho

[@m0d.]

@@slopedarmor now you know one. hahaha. but quartz are cool too!

[@ukusanz]

And remember, the smart watches are all fancy and technical and can do some amazing things, however, they also have a very small lifespan. Im on my 3rd apple watch now, and the older 2 are nothing but antiquated now. No updates available, no capacity left, and battery life would probably be around half a day. Not worth spending $$ on a new battery, however quartz watches still do the same functions year after year, and the battery is dirt cheap. My guess is the EV will have the same fate as the smart watch

[@kevincockburn7805]

​@@ukusanzI fear you could be right about the EVs and smart watch comparisons. Just a real waste when considering the resources that go into a car.

[@Furiends]

Frankly smart watches were an example of tech doing the opposite to a product for once. Adding variety and giving people reasons to be enthusiasts. But then all the manufactures got consolidated and switched to selling watches as jewellery rather than doing the much harder work of convincing people having a computer on your wrist has benefits. It was in fact the weird toxic status symbol sameness of watches that killed all the innovation and enthusiasm.

[@CaseyHurd111]

This episode was too short, could’ve watched them go on longer. One of the better segments Doug has done, always great with Hoovie

[@Iwatoda_Dorm]

I could see Doug making a quirky car podcast about these kinds of discussions.

[@averagesundaydriver8122]

Totally. In fact, if he could (it's ironic because he's one of like 3 people with internet presence that won't do this) I wouldn't mind if Doug could get enough topics and enough people to make a podcast out of stuff like this. He doesn't have to keep it going, or upload to it regularly, just when the right topic comes. Quality over quantity.

[@Skywing452]

could’ve been a 30-40 minute podcast style i would’ve watched the whole discourse

[@turbo_marc]

Is 18 minutes not enough?

[@Skywing452]

@@turbo_marc i mean the video is so obviously they think its enough. Cant a guy wish for a longer video? weird

[@dennisholbrook8940]

Doug’s the type of guy that posts KZbin videos about EV enthusiasts on his birthday. Happy belated birthday Doug!

[@blaketindle4703]

“Ford probably doesn’t like me very much right now.” LMAO that’s an understatement Tyler! 😂

[@AdamG1983]

Well can you blame them? He single-handedly destroyed the reputation of the F-150 Lightning (although it was completely valid)

[@yazansakran3326]

That's on Ford for cheaping out on the trucks cold weather adaptability

[@ConnorHammond]

@@AdamG1983 Of course we can blame them. As you stated, his arguments were valid.

[@TJ-oi5qe]

Sometimes the truth hurts!

[@kevindimauro9689]

Funny thing is that I don’t see nearly as many Fords being flipped on C&B as Rivians. Ford buyers seem to be quite loyal to the brand with Tyler being an exception.

[@brendendas]

I love their banter and arguments. Feels genuine, like an honest conversation between friends.

[@person749]

It's annoying how Doug constantly cuts Hoovie off when he's about to say something interesting.

[@Tm0n3y762]

@@person749 you must not have good friends lol when me and my buddies get into a topic like sports or cars things can get heated and we laugh afterwards no bad feelings😂

[@aussie2uGA]

It takes a lot of planning and experience, plus some great talent, to stay on topic and on narrative, while making it appear so natural. It's one reason newscasters get paid so well, they could sell ice to eskimos with a smile.

[@ArchieOnEarth]

One of my favorite parts of Top Gear was “The News.” This reminds me of that.

[@Lasergun74]

I think that this discussion is very on point! I was having the same ramblings with a friend lately. Here in Italy I can feel that the new generations are less and less into cars. When I was 18, back in 1992, 90% of my friends were hard core enthusiasts, gathering on Sundays in our central square discussing bore and stroke of the latest Alfa 75. It’s not the case anymore, teenagers don’t even care anymore about getting a moped at 14 or a motorbike at 16, which were the most important milestones for us back in the day. Mobility, and the related feel of freedom, independence and enthusiasm, is not as critical as it used to be. This is killing the car enthusiast vibe even with gasoline powered cars. And this EV revolution is just the icing on the cake. End of an era, period.

[@peterboczan6251]

You have made some very valid points. Young peoples lifestyles have changed now from what it was "back in the day". Learning to drive a car was a right of passage that opened up a world of freedom and opportunities for both work, pleasure and social interaction. Now information technology is making it pretty much obsolete with more people not even requiring a car as an essential everyday item. Want to do the shopping? Simply order it on line. Want to do track days and racing? Just down load the latest Gran Turismo games on your computer and use a joystick. Want to meet up with friends in far away locations? Just arrange a zoom meeting and so on. Of course this is just a generalisation and we have still a long way to go before the motor car is as obsolete as the horse and cart.

[@vernonpaigejr.1517]

@@peterboczan6251 I don't see kids riding bikes as much as when I was a kid. When you had a bike and you had that freedom to go damn there anywhere. You couldn't wait to get a car so you can go even further. I had to tell my 16 year old she needs to learn how to drive. Not "uber" everywhere

[@cheekydemon6131]

You're from Italy? Can I have a question? What Italians think about old muscle cars and pony cars from the late '60s and early '70? Are there big meetings of old american cars in Italy or not? Do you see old US cars on the road at least once a week? I know that a country with the most prestigious car brand in the world in Ferrari doesn’t need to care about old muscle cars, but people are different and maybe some Italians enjoy old muscle cars too? Do you think it's a good idea to make a roadtrip through Italy in an old muscle car?

[@Lasergun74]

@@cheekydemon6131 Hi CD! I will say that there are some muscle cars enthusiasts here, but not as many as even in other European countries. That’s I believe mostly for two reasons: one, market for muscles and ponies is hard here because of their displacement. Taxes and insurance here raise exponentially with power and displacement, so that owning a big engine car is crazy expensive, even if the car worth just a few €€€. Two: here in Italy most of the roads are narrow and winding, so it’s not the best playground for big straight line rockets. We prefer to hit our great b-roads in lighter and nimbler vehicles. This been said, there’s still a small enthusiast muscle car subculture, with gatherings and road shows, but for example not wide and common as the Harley Davidson community, which is pretty big. If you would like to come here for a Grand Tour in an old muscle car you’re welcome anyway, I believe you can even rent one locally and have fun! In the end we love every car and spotting uncommon vehicles from any make or era can make our day. Ciao!

[@cheekydemon6131]

@@Lasergun74 Thank you for the answer. I know what you mean about US cars not being suitable for european roads as I am from the Czech Republic. Narrow, twisty mountain roads and town streets made for horse carriages. That being said I've never wanted to give up on my dream of owning an old muscle car, especially as someone who was born behind the Iron Curtain in former Czechoslovakia. Back then in the '80s as a little boy I've watched american movies on pirated VHS tapes and I just loved the old muscle cars so much. The socialist cars really sucked so to see something amazing in the movies like old muscle cars was insane. Of course that I enjoyed the Countach in Cannonball Run too. Or the Ferrari 308 GTS in Magnum. But I just love the bold "in your face" designs of old muscle cars the most...and of course the classic american V8 sound...that's just symphony of steel. Anyways I own a '72 Dodge Demon 340 for a few years now, everything on the car is like back in 1972. It has everything besides the rear wing as I don't like it on the Demon. It's got even my favorite color bright red, correct coal black stripes and the twinscoop hood snorkel and Mopar Rally Wheels in Argent silver. It's a 3 speed manual - dog leg shifter with a pretty heavy clutch which I love and no power steering which is a challenge when parking here in Europe, haha. Knowing the limits of driving an old muscle car here in Europe forces me to have a cruiser mentality instead of being an apex hunter, which is fine by me. No crashes and tickets so far in my life. You know I just cruise down the highway listening to the V8 and ZZ Top...I even have the ZZ Top keychain hanging on my Demon car keys. A relaxing drive like that means more to me than to push it to the limit and risk a car accident. Most people in this world only know the 2018 Dodge Challenger Demon, so I was thinking it would be cool and interesting if Italian people saw the original Dodge Demon 340 from the early '70s. Before I even open the garage door I get weak in the knees, I get goosebumps and my pulse goes faster. Obviously not everyone's into old muscle cars, but it's always nice to see a unique car no matter the brand like you've said. Plus I'd see all of Italia from Alps to Sicilia...so much history in every corner of your country, gotta love that. I really gotta make a trip like this one day...a bunch of friends in old muscle cars cruising through Italia...wow, some things you cannot buy, you gotta experience them 😎

[@D-Rockk]

Doug, your guest appearance on Donut Media's price guess game was AWESOME!

[@baselhs]

It’s similar to what happened to watches. Quartz battery watches came out half a century ago. They are cheaper and way more accurate than mechanical watches. However, mechanical fine watches still cost a lot more and sought after by enthusiasts. Also, they keep increasing in demand and value while the technology is dated. While the more accurate Quartz is generally seen as a cheap brand watches.

[@valerystoichkov7429]

Exactly, good comparsion.

[@MisterMonsieur]

More proof that Humans love mechanical, analog things. We like to see and know how things work.

[@MisterMonsieur]

@@ArbitraryFilmings More so than any EV toy car, yes!

[@GoldenCroc]

I get the analogy but its almost 100% exclusively marketing and brand name making those clocks sought after. There are also lots of practical differences in that a mechanical watch cost literally zero to run, can easily be stored by the dozens in a normal desk drawer and have very low maintenance costs... all of which are many many many magnitudes more expensive and cumbersome with a car. There will be car enthusiasts for vintage ICE cars, but it will be many thousand of times less than currently.

[@MisterMonsieur]

@@GoldenCroc Then you really don't understand. Why aren't Andriod and iWatch's more popular if it all comes down to marketing, if it all comes down to a poster or TV commercial that tells us zombies, "BUY THIS!" It's because of heritage and legacy. It's because we appreciate hand-built things we can see and understand and care for, not stamped products.

[@elliottcarson1248]

I think there will be a place for both gas and ev. Evs might relay more on quirky designs and features because there're all fast and quiet. However some people will always appreciated the sound and feel of a gas car. I'm sure synthetic fuels will come around.

[@xXLIGITXx47]

Yeah, I'm sure synthetic fuels will definitely come around considering Porsche has actually managed to build a plant to make hydrocarbons (essentially what gasoline is) from pulling Hydrogen from water, and carbon from the air to combine the two into hydrocarbons. If it develops further; then it'd be an absolutely huge contributer for keeping ICE around

[@ruleslawyer]

EVs probably will fight mostly with infotainment type stuff. Its been going that way with gas cars, but having very similar driving experiences will accelerate that.

[@sunshinelolipops1]

I've been a major car enthusiast since around 15-16 years old, but with manufacturers focusing on EVs, my interest in cars is dwindling. I remember being so exited for NAIAS every year to see all the new car debuts, hearing all the cool technical details and mechanical specs, but now everything that gets released is just another swoopy, weird looking crossover with squinty headlights and a battery pack. The very thing that made me interested in cars was the mechanical sensation of driving them, the feel of stepping on an actual *gas* pedal and hearing an engine and feeling gear shifts and steering that was actually mechanically connected to the wheels, on top of the different experience each car provided. The engine and mechanical components gave the car its personality and identity. But I have basically the same passion for EVs as I do for elevators. You just get in, press a button, and it takes you somewhere. They all work the same. They are soulless and make no noise. Some of the features in them are so gimmicky because automakers ran out of genuine ideas for convenience features. I get that some of them are fast, but a fast EV isn't as impressive from an engineering or mechanical standpoint as a quick gas car. Nothing beats an actual engine and transmission imo.

[@Thinginator]

That's why you gotta get into classic cars, bro. Doesn't get more mechanical than that! Plus since they're "historic vehicles" they'll likely be allowed on the road (at least in some capacity) for years to come, even if you have to buy gasoline from a chemist to do it. And the further back in history you go, the weirder and more unique they get. I was looking at a 1908 Buick the other day with a gigantic 159 cubic inch 30 hp flat twin mounted transversely under the floor and seats, with a chain drive to the rear wheels sandwiched between the flywheel and a simple planetary gearbox for the transmission. It had a conventional hood, but it was bolted down and the only thing under it was the gas tank. The engineering on those old cars was wild, they were trying anything they could think of to see what worked!

[@Sam-go3mb]

Plus the whole insane acceleration thing will surely be regulated at some point in some countries. They'll either do it at the manufacture level or, god forbid, they'll have some nationally approved software update or something required for a warranty that limits the car to the speed limit of the road they are driving on or something like that lol.

[@JebHoge]

The most appealing thing about an EV is getting to understand an entirely new set of vehicle dynamics. I don't want an EV that's "just like a gas version"; I want something kind of curious and different as long as it works as a daily.

[@tworld2938]

Tech enthusiasts like EV, I think car enthusiasts will be not be onboard for a long time.

[@randomenthusiast6898]

I believe a true enthusiast can have an EV in their garage right next to their other vehicles and appreciate both. The idea that it has to be one or the other is wild to me. EVs as a replacement to internal combustion is horrible marketing by these companies and the government regulations being put on automakers to go electric is insane.

[@xxsupermanxx567]

A true enthusiast might just not appreciate both. It’s all matter of opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally EVs lack the soul and excitement of any regular car.

[@BiffBuffchest]

Ev for the daily commute, and the gas for the weekend/travel

[@fragge2926]

@@xxsupermanxx567 So what makes a "true" enthusiast? I grew up building, tuning and street racing Turbo Supras and Audis. I have several motorsport licenses and done some formula racing and karting. I now among some ICE cars also drive a Tesla Performance and enjoy it a lot, the instant torque and power never gets old and the handling is great. So, does this not make me a true car enthusiast any more? Does it have to be black and white?

[@balloonedraccoon2503]

We can all live in harmony it's possible

[@drunkenhobo5039]

The problem is if it wasn't for various government regulations they'd still be running on leaded fuel with Freon AC systems. The diesel scandals showed they can't be trusted to regulate themselves so government had to step in.

[@JamieLovick]

Being a car enthusiast isn't always about having something fast or special, sometimes it's about how quirky they are or how accessible they are. I own a Mitsubishi i-MiEV (which I believe you've just reviewed), which I am modifying with charger upgrades, I replaced a failing battery cell with another working one for $50, I've put some nicer wheels on it and documented the process for an article as the stock wheels are hard to get where I live, and it's the car I use when I visit family. Having an IT and electronics background, it's kind of my version of wrenching, and I can hang out with friends and work on it, test theories, etc., and all of that for about $3000 bucks (Australian), plus mods. It's all fun.

[@hadtopicausername]

Indeed. For old fashioned ICE enthusiast driving, I want something that can bring me driving pleasure without going at silly speeds. For me, quirky outweighs pure performance by a long shot, at least as far as ICE cars are concerned.

[@seangates900]

Jamie: I'm an EV enthusiast with admittedly low skill sets in terms of fixing much of anything. My brother is a GM mechanic, and I have the patience of a toddler. Before I did ANY research towards a summer 2020 Ioniq purchase, I thought the i-MiEV was somewhat likely to be the car for me. I love its quirky tiny appearance, but I've never been inside one. Doug's i-MiEV video has not come out YET (this teaser makes me think it's still coming), and I daresay this vehicle appeals to us for contrasting reasons. It most likely fits into your life better than it does mine. ;-)

[@JamieLovick]

@@seangates900 the range on the i-MiEV is a bit low for some, but fine for me. There are now companies swapping out the original 50 Ah battery cells for 93 Ah CATL ones, bringing the range to upward of 200 Km.

[@Pulseczar1]

It would bother me, in the US, where most people drive massive trucks and SUVs, to drive something so small, with so little material in the front of the car to provide shock absorption in a frontal impact.

[@JamieLovick]

@@Pulseczar1 it really is a city car. It will drive fine at 60 mph, but crosswinds aren’t your friend.

[@skayofox]

I really think that electric conversions are going to become a huge deal in the enthusiast community. But I agree that the powertrain of EVs feels the same on most cars. But there is a lot of software tuneablitity in those cars, so custimizing will get more about hacking, as noted in the video. As an software engineer, tinkerer and car enthusiast, this is exciting for me tbh

[@ramp7857]

But then it's about liking computers not cars

[@rchrdsn]

How EVs will be tweaked is an interesting point. It kind of reflects computer stuff, with apps simulating everything. It's definitely a strong departure from combustion vehicles.

[@aussie2uGA]

There is so much that can be done with EV's. Want an awesome super lightweight autocross car? Take two of the small 300hp AC motors and combine them with just enough battery capacity to go WOT for 3minutes. You'll have an instant torque monster that can recharge quick between sessions. We are only at the infancy of all this. Can you imagine people hating the Model T and sticking with horses because all the cars looked the same, only came in black, and needed to be cranked to get started?

[@Brandonisbored7]

@@aussie2uGA pftt ECU Tunes and forced induction ? HA get outta here, imma upgrade my tesla with flappy bird 😎😎😎😎😎😎

[@carholic-sz3qv]

Not really! With ICE there are also alot of software related stuffs

[@foglebr]

@@carholic-sz3qv yes but thanks to ODB-II standards mandated by the government and expectations of repairability by consumers, that ICE software can be worked on and tweaked. This isn’t the case with the EV industry as it stands currently. Any EVs made currently have to be hacked to be worked on outside of their respective dealerships.

[@3UZFE]

Which will lead to people screwing stuff up resulting in overheating batteries, motors, electronics, likely causing burn outs or fires. Its stupid to think joe blogs could tune an EV better than the factory could, given how fast most of them already car, they've dialed them in as well as they can be. It's quite different with gas cars given fuel and emissions economy takes precedent over performance which leaves room on the table, and this stuff as been done for decades.

[@aubjne]

To me, the EV vs ICE is very reminiscent of the Smart/Digital Watch vs Mechanical Watch enthusiasts. Mechanical watches have a variety, charm, design and engineering that’s completely lost in smart watches. Just like ICE cars have over EVs.

[@laylahassomethingtosay]

I was using this exact same simile to explain this sentiment to my non-car-enthusiast friend the other day! And I think there's a point to be made in the other direction as well-- like for the average person who does not care about watch mechanics a smart watch or digital watch provides some very real advantages/features that are either impossible or prohibitively expensive to create with just machinery. You definitely lose the soul and personality that was born from the mechanisms, but most people aren't going to appreciate that anyway🤷🏻‍♀

[@Apappas94]

This is my example too! Perfect analogy imo

[@BudgetMechanic]

Also u can buy Mechanical Watches for cheaper if u just buy absolutely basic one, and it just might be even more reliable.

[@muazqamar]

@@laylahassomethingtosay Yeah but we're not talking about average people or even most people. We're talking about enthusiasts. Like a soccer mom (I know it's a cliche) doesn't/wouldn't care about horsepower, engine type, transmission etc. They just want something that's practical, spacious, and gets the job done. For people who just want to get from point A to B are not enthusiasts.

[@auburnalum9019]

You don't need a Rolex to do your job. . Pretty much every American needs a car to work. Most red blooded Americans enjoy a car they can afford to fill up efficiently and/or drive for that commute. Most every red blooded American is proud of their first car they every owned. You could never say the same for a watch.

[@josephfuller272]

Regarding the heartland vs the coasts, I have a lot of friends that literally never buy new cars. I love EV's, but I haven't found a cheap one that'll let me drive as long and as cheaply as my old Impala with tons of miles on it.

[@jamesb5863]

The problem I see, as Hoovie stated was in the long term when the expensive components need to be replaced like the battery. For car enthusiasts replacing components in an older cheaper car may not be super expensive (even if say replacing an engine is worth more than the car itself), but even with a cheap electric car replacing a major component may be way too cost prohibitive. And I'm mainly thinking about younger car enthusiasts that buy older cars to mod or have fun with like Miata's and other older affordable cars.

[@3UZFE]

Even the last 20 years of diesel and gas cars will be hard to keep going, they are so complex, meanwhile keeping a 1990s and earlier car will still be possible as they mostly use simple concepts, and parts that are available or replicated. EVs are just computers on wheels at this point with few mechanical parts, their demise will be the electronics, batteries and software, and because of that tech nature are far quicker to out date themselves.

[@jamesb5863]

@@3UZFE Totally agree. Will electric cars be like computers? So even though the car may be fine it will be useless cause the software is obsolete and not supported? Or not repairable cause it is obsolete.

[@urbanturbine]

@@jamesb5863 So, as it gets more and more software updates, will it get slower and eventually start hanging with blue screen.?? LOL

[@jamesb5863]

@@urbanturbine Right! Imagine a car that is physically fine, but because it has an older chip or software that is not supported anymore therefore it cannot be updated and at some point become unusable. Just like computers today. I've got an older tablet that is physically fine, the battery works but because it has an older software system it cannot update so the apps stop working cause they are not supported and they can't be updated. So essentially it becomes a paper weight.

[@ClellBiggs]

I think there will be enthusiasts for EVs, it just won't be us.

[@FrozenDung]

I'm one, can't wait to get a MINI electric

[@SuperNicktendo]

EVs are still really new and I think, we'll start seeing more interesting ones in the next 5-10 years. The challenger EV looks interesting with the exhaust note and ability to do burnouts. But I guess we'll have to see the first EV that doesn't emulation what a current combustion engine care does before we can start to see a true enthusiast car. Hyundai is working on a dual gear car, we might see them be more manual before they go fully automated.

[@3UZFE]

The challenger 'exhaust note' is laughable.

[@Lord_Reset]

That's kinda the EGMP platform, ionic 5/6 and 7, Kia kv 6 and 9, and Genesis EVS are all based on a single platform and use SIMILAR tech. A solid base that can be highly adaptable with great performance and different features for a low price.

[@Ripperx121]

"Let the market decide" - Tyler Hoover

[@JuiceBoxScott]

It's like he's proudly ignorant. The government subsidizes the oil and gas industry as well. They always put their finger on the scales of the free market.

[@gio-gk6nz]

Ev lack craftsmanship for what your paying for. That cheap Tesla vegan leather and cheap plastic are often overlooked just because it’s trendy. As of right now EVs are more marketed to liberal west coast hipsters who want to buy the “idea” rather than buying a truly well crafted product

[@addrakettp]

Yeah I thought that was kind of a short-sighted comment as well. If the market was allowed to control everything in the Auto industry we would not have the safety regulations or emission standards we do now which I don't think anyone can argue is a bad thing

[@JuiceBoxScott]

@@gio-gk6nz more time is needed to know for sure if the leather or whole car really last. As it is now, the early Tesla's with the fake leather are holding up pretty well.

[@gio-gk6nz]

@@JuiceBoxScott yea I feel you but idk I guess to me it’s the principal that people are paying 140k for a model s plaid that has fake leather. Tesla should step up and at least put alcantara material since they won’t use leather to keep their vegans demographic

[@KayJblue]

There are plenty of cars nowadays that can beat an F40 in performance, or a Countach, or a Miura or any legendary car. But you’d still rather have them. For me the argument of EV’s being really fast is just like that. There’s just something else about a car that makes it great.

[@99gagtx]

That goes back to Doug and Hoovie's discussion about EV manufacturers needing to focus on better styling. Instead of just going for speed. Enthusiasts like cool looking cars. A Ford Focus and a Mustang will both get you to the mall. But it's more fun in the Mustang.

[@bwofficial1776]

Fun cars aren't just about going fast. Sure, a plaid Tesla is fast, but that's about it. Performance isn't just about 0-60, it's about the sound, the feeling, the engagement. That's what the Tesla bros can't understand.

[@ColinFox]

Except that if you DO have a Miura, or a Countach, or F40 or whatever, you wouldn't drive it. No one who owns those cars drive them. I mean - they will drive it once a year to a cars & coffee, but not for real. They're garage queens, and they cost a TON to maintain. Is that really where you want car enthusiasm to go? Personally I think it's far more exciting to take an old favourite and electrify it - take out the crappy ICE drive train & gubbins, drop in a battery + EV motor & drive controller and have a blast.

[@f00koff42]

​@@ColinFox I'd rather have all classic cars crushed and recycled into train cars than replace their engines

[@jackdesanta69]

@@ColinFox Electrifying old cars is like engine swapping old cars now, maybe it's an upgrade for the drivetrain but downgrade for the car as a whole and basically killing its character.

[@DanielPradoBurgos]

Now, electric motors vary A LOT depending on of they're radial, axial (or both), on wether they're conversions and even you can go nuts putting several motors one after the other and connect them to a transaxle ... There's a lot to do and it's easier to do what you're doing of shutting down and treat every ev as the same

[@richardbenz8861]

I think Hoovie was referring to GM's Hy-Wire hydrogen-powered skateboard chassis concept they developed where the body could be swapped out...

[@Flies2FLL]

When I bought my first Porsche, an '85 928S2, I purposely looked all over in order to buy a manual transmission car. The point about Porsche's [and any sports car] is the involvement. You want to experience everything about the car, to include shifting the gears. The point of a sports car is not reaching your destination, it is the journey. Thus, there is something that Tyler is getting to with regard to electric cars: A significant amount of the experience has been removed. The sounds, the vibrations, the smells, the harshness, the response curve of the engine, the knowledge of those pistons and shafts moving around in a coordinated manner adds a tremendous amount to the whole experience. While they are certainly going to be more reliable, I suspect that electric vehicles are not going to be the same as ICE and will not be popular as sports cars. I view my Porsche as my "personal roller coaster", and while a 0-60 of 2.0 seconds would certainly be thrilling, it is going to in my case take that sort of acceleration to pique my interest. Really, electric drivetrains are for everyday cars that people simply use as transportation. Porsche is on record as saying they will produce ICE cars for as long as they are allowed and people will buy them. Porsche is all about the experience after all.

[@bwofficial1776]

mY tEsLa Is FaStEr!!!! Performance isn't just 0-60, it's about the whole package. The sound, the feeling, the engagement. EVs are transportation appliances. Good for Porsche for holding out as long as they can. I hope they can figure out a way to make their e-fuel readily available.

[@beastabuelos6421]

@BW no it's about going fast. Literally couldn't care about the rest. Such a dumb mindset

[@julianevans9548]

Spot on. Also, the novelty of your amazing 0-60 time is going to wear off the fourth time you do it. Also, electric cars are not a long-term solution to either environmental or transportation issues. The main reason governments are promoting them is to support the car industry.

[@julianevans9548]

@@beastabuelos6421 Most people who are interested in driving disagree with you. But, hey, they're all 'dumb'.

[@blumpkinexcalibur7523]

“As long as they are allowed”. These auto companies, that contribute billions to their countries and governments, not to mention creating prestige and pride, need to grow some balls and learn how to fight back against these pu**y green energy freaks that use laughably stupid data to push this crap on the populations.

[@micahsmith4149]

I had a model S that was wrecked but I loved it for the simple user experience for a fast daily driver. Having an ICE sports car or something enthusiast for the weekend is a goal of mine. So for me, I like having one of each.

[@Daniel28021991]

I love it to see Doug & Hoovie together.

[@matthewburke8509]

I test drove a i4 Edrive40 recently and found it more engaging to drive than the GLA45 that it will be replacing. Could be that I just really prefer RWD to AWD but it's definitely given me hope for the future. Being a nerd studying electrical engineering also helps since I find it interesting that they're using ac synchronous motors rather than permanent magnets like most other manufacturers.

[@PhonyBologna]

Edrive 40 is solid. I traded in my Taycan 4S for one. Same story, RWD is superior. Also the RWD Taycan is too slow and wide for how much it weighs IMO.

[@howardjennings1166]

I won't ever drive an fwd car. Power going to the front of the car is just a different experience. I have a rwd mid engine Boxster and it's just incredible to drive.

[@PhonyBologna]

Porsche has announced an EV Cayman out in 2025. Looking forward to see how that goes, I believe they are using a 'chest' battery pack behind the driver. With a mid-engine weight distribution, I am hoping it makes for a very engaging chassis and driving experience compared to what is currently out on the market.

[@3UZFE]

yawn

[@PhonyBologna]

Yeah, I guess all cars are boring when you cannot afford them, sorry bro.

[@CTSega]

Car enthusiasts with a certain amount of disposable income will never be EV fans, because that income allows them to purchase and drive a wide assortment of cars. When you can Drive a GTI, a Supra, a Hurucan, and a 911, you can appreciate the crazy range of characters that each of those amazing vehicles bring to the table. However, for the vast majority of people (even car people) EVs will just be an upgrade to whatever they drive.

[@jakelannetti3128]

This is a great point

[@2tp223]

Exactly. These cars will all be „exotics“ in the future and will continue to get more expensive. Only car enthusiasts that are well off financially are going to be able to afford these in the future

[@air-headedaviator1805]

Car enthusiasm exists for any kind of car, even cars that based off anyone elses opinion no one should like (like the PT Cruiser, or the glorious Nissan Murano Cross Cabriolet). The kind of enthusiasm I think y’all are debating is the *performance driver enthusiast* , the segment where the best thing about cars is how it turns intent into movement, the segment who loves being in vehicles that move the soul, sing to the heart, and challenge user to measure up to what the vehicle can provide. I legitimately think that there will be cars that can provide that, the Nevera currently the pinnacle, followed by the McMurtry Speirling, even the Lucid Air Sapphire or Porsche Taycan. That said, its evident that the current trend of electric cars in normal people tax brackets follow the trend of isolated, and emotion less. Traditional ICE cars by nature held potential for performance and excitement because its an engine that makes mini explosions, and many had to be designed to work like sports cars as a dual purpose. Mass market EVs just don’t, and they face greater limitations towards fulfilling enthusiast goals

[@manusankar2556]

I had both and i love both.EVs are convinient,comfortable,also pretty quick acceleration but ice car especially manual are a lot fun to drive but on city drive it is very tidious but they are good for long trip.

[@BatCaveOz]

If someone invented a microwave oven that cooked my ramen noodles twice as fast I would mildly interested... I would not be excited. I feel the exact same way about EVs.

[@elas2k159]

The feel part is everything for actual enthusiasts. I own a s2000 ap2 and half the reason why I love the car is because of its power plant. The vtec is dramatic, fun, and revving it out never gets old. Having the short gear ratio that keeps you engaged and on edge. Obviously the chassis is great as well, but if it had a boring power plant it would be half the car then it is

[@dundonrl]

@fab I had an 02 GPW with full red interior AP1, talk about a street legal go cart! Traded it in on an 03 Cobra. (Felt like a wallowing pig vs the S2K but DAMN did it have acceleration!) The car before the S2K was a 98 C5 targa Corvette.

[@rishabnagori7795]

This is exactly why I think a modern s2k wouldn't work. The car is defined by the engine. If Honda made it now, it would have the 2.0T or 1.5 and cost like 50k

[@elas2k159]

@fab it’s crazy how the market blew up on these a few years ago. It’s a shame because now s2000 owners are afraid to put miles on their cars!

[@elas2k159]

@@rishabnagori7795 totally agree with you on that! I feel like it would be like the new “integra” Sure the type s looks good and seems like a nice car but there’s no “integra dna” in it.

[@dannymartial7997]

There are computer enthusiasts who can appreciate the way certain components are liquid cooled, and how some chips can be overclocked to achieve better-than-factory speeds, etc.... I think in the future, that's what it'll boil down to. Which EV has the coolest tech that makes it superior to the other cars. Which infotainment allows for the best games, movies, music experience. Which HUD looks the best. Which seats have the best massaging feeling... etc.

[@Arbi5577]

Basically tech enthusiasts. Unfortunately the things tech enthusiasts like don't always overlap with what car enthusiasts like. That's why we see tech people like Marques Brownlee and Jerry rig everything reviewing EV cars for their tech but ICE car enthusiasts as we know them today probably won't exist once ICE's are no longer viable to run and own. I'm sure there will be small niches but definitely not like it was.

[@C.I...]

As if any EV maker would let you do that.

[@lthedoperabbitl9258]

when you have cars that already do 0 to 60 1.9 second whats the point like maybe in 20 years all cars will do 1.9 second and u can never create something that has a 1 second 0 to 60 it will all come down to like 0 to 100 or 200 and after that cars are too fast to be driven by your average person and has to be auto pilot.

[@99gagtx]

One difference being that when a computer's power supply goes bad, it can be replaced fairly cheaply and easily. The rechargeable batteries in EV's are worth more than the rest of the car, and are extremely difficult to replace.

[@navdeepsingh3508]

Sounds lame..i love pc building but that's lame 😅

[@markmelton697]

I’ve grown up as a mechanic and enthusiast. I love my IS300, but I have a Cybertruck on order. Tuners have gone from carbs to remapping fuel injection. There has always been engine swaps and I do believe there will be motor swaps for bigger more powerful motors. I have no doubt enthusiasts will learn how to rebuild and swap batteries for more amperage. Its not here yet but as the generations change it will happen.

[@3UZFE]

lol

[@jeffstreck]

I think we're going to go on an interesting route. Sure, Hoovie's right about electric motors feeling similar to each other. However I see EVs differentiating through ride dynamics and features. We'll get somewhere close to things that look a bit like pod racers from star wars, we'll get some unfathomably obese trucks, and we'll get everything in between. We'll have motors in wheels, motors in the front, the back, the middle, and god knows what else. Cars will begin to look real different. And then we'll learn how to make gas engines work greenly and they'll make a comeback into a world of weird vehicles and THAT, friends, is when things get awesome.

[@ramp7857]

Not sure if gas is coming back

[@ChristoAbrie]

the heart of the car is it's engine, and regardless of how identical some cars can be, no two engines are exactly alike. Plus, it doesn't matter how much insulation it has, engine vibrations are ever present and combine that with an exhaust note and it will give the car a personality. I think Jeremy Clarkson once described it as: The heart of the car is it's engine and the exhaust note is it's soul. Because there is physical movement occurring in the engine, you get the sense that there is life and hearing an audible response to your mechanical input is kinda like talking to your car and it talking back. EVs don't have that vibe. ask anyone who owns an EV if they get that warm feeling when starting up their car, that it's alive and willing to move. there's nothing more satisfying than hearing an exhaust-note on startup, even if it's a humdrum little economy car or a base-model full-sized car. Exhaust notes cause a physiological reaction in most car enthusiasts, there are no features in an electric vehicle that can provide the same level of stimuli.

[@manolismarinakis8444]

I believe that the perception of the heart and soul will change. The note, as you call it, or noise, as I do, excites some people because we correlate it with acceleration, power, fun. If the connection isn't there then we will find a new trigger, probably the pure sensation of acceleration, maybe tire noise or the fact that from a certain speed onwards wind noise becomes noticeable. The same way we learnt to "see" smiles through the eyes during the pandemic when masks obscured the mouths. The heart, for me, has always been the driver

[@Jcewazhere]

"ask anyone who owns an EV if they get that warm feeling when starting up their car" when you start it up no, that's just a button press, but when you drive it yes. Go test drive a Chevy Bolt. Listen to it sing to you as you accelerate out of corners. Enjoy that low CoG while still being in a tall enough car to not be staring into the exhaust pipe of the gas guzzler in front of you. Notice how it performs differently based on state of charge. Hit the sport mode button and blast away from every gas car at the stoplight in something that looks like a minivan and hot-hatch had a kid. Turn off the traction control and whip around corners sideways like some kind of rally car. No car is alive, but my 'Beverly' feels as alive as either of my old 'Roos' did.

[@JarJarBinkz68]

@@ArbitraryFilmings does your car make any noise ? no ? Lame. Bet you feel some type of way when a straight piped gtr or gt3 passes you. All that power and no soul.

[@slopedarmor]

​@@JarJarBinkz68 souls dont exist anyways lol

[@slopedarmor]

I thought the most important thing about vehicles was the practicality? Here ur only talking about a warm feeling? Haha. Well, i suppose I get that warm feeling when i build a new pc and my entire room smells like PC. For me i think silent motors and rumbling engine are equally cool. Ive been waaay more interested in the car industry since evs are a thing. If someone now announces an ice vehicle im not interested, if someone now announces an electric vehicle i want to know the specs. When it comes to performance, there is no feature in an ice car that can provide the same level of stimuli? Just look at chris harris driving the rimac, he said something like who needs noise when youve got performance like this 😊

[@deadpoet415]

A very interesting conversation. But I do agree that, for now, enthusiasts care about how it "makes you feel" among other things. Speaking of that, it was a nice touch that you two helds hands at the end. Lol!

[@Vanilla.coke1234]

I really think there’s opportunity for EV’s to offer something for enthusiasts, but I don’t think they will. The business side of things is already moving well away from enthusiast cars and it’s not inconceivable that in a decade most every car will just be a subscription based commuter.

[@barangoran4179]

Yepp. They dont need enthusiast cars to make money, they only need smartphone like throwaway cars.

[@leaving_marks]

They already do.. like me lol. I like all cool cars. They all serve their purpose. I have an Ioniq 5 and as a commuter its awesome. The instant torque is amazing for around town, its very comfortable. And I can't wait to get a fun car with a stick for the weekends.

[@Jordandagostino]

I think it’s very similar to people who collect records. Sure CD’s and digital libraries have a far superior experience in terms of speed but you can never beat the sound and feeling you get when you use a vinyl on a record player **the discussion on my comment has been fantastic! Thanks for all the responses :)**

[@DrewMestel]

Well put!

[@chapman6953]

I would argue you can get much better quality sound from digital.

[@antolafuente14]

I think the best comparison is the watch industry. Quartz watches gained popularity for their affordability, accuracy, and low maintenance requirements, while mechanical watches continue to attract enthusiasts who appreciate their craftsmanship, artistry, and mechanical complexity. I think we will see a similar thing with cars.

[@benmesser7361]

the comparison holds in terms of it just being an old technology that still has a niche following. but cars ain't CDs. for one theres a lot more "car enthusiast" than there are enthusiast cars, and thats NOW, when ICU enthusiast cars are still being produced. imagine a future in 30 years when any ICU car has a special "collectors car" plate and permit. only the rich will be able to afford one. car enthusiasm as a hobby will die. cars won't be something to be enthusiastic about. do you see washing machine enthusiasts? elevator enthusiasts? itll just be a tool. itll be like an elevator. unless companies can figure out a way to differentiate these things and make cooler versions, but why tf would they do that? they don't care about enthusiasts. they care about money and EVs will bring in the money just as well.

[@lukabosnjak3829]

​@@chapman6953 Absolutely, same as audiophiles and headphones. Everybody is buying different headphones which are made of this and that, have some beryllium drivers or platinum cables but it all comes down to frequency response (usability of a car here) and with correct tuning you can make a cheap bluetooth headphone (Tesla) sounding more correct and better than some 3000$ Den Clark (Porsche). There are people who will never realise or accept this but they are not car enthusiast but rather some wannabe car kiddies

[@Nord_Mann]

My 2020 Taycan 4S lost 7% of it’s SOH over 1,5yrs/52000kms. On New Year’s Day 2022 it bricked out of nowhere while driving home from our Christmas holiday leaving us stranded 1400kms from home in the middle of the road on top of a mountain in a blizzard. The battery was at 74%. The flatbed took 2.5hrs waiting for and by 70mins even it’s hazard lights stopped working. A sweet guy in a -94 Ford Explorer with a full gas tank saved us parking behind us with his hazards on so traffic could see us in the dark with a blacked out black Taycan covered in snow as a dangerous road block. The flat bed brought a rental Renault van we drove to the airport with catching a flight home the next day. Porsche Assist was terrible to deal with and I had to lay out for the rental, the hotel rooms (4 ppl and a cat..), the flight home and taxi from the airport to our house. After 2 months I got the car back with a new rear motor as the one it it had short circuited out. 2 months later I traded the Taycan for a Cayenne without an extension cord. Never, ever I’ll get a premium EV again as the main family hauler. A city run-around maybe, but not for the no.1 car.

[@YoshMaster]

Also each year EVs will get more and more reliable to the point where they will completely eclipse all the mechanical problems one can have with ICE

[@sailorjerry3720]

Sounds like a crappy and stressful experience. Glad you and your family are ok.

[@bestprice1776]

I'm not going to even consider an EV until I can charge up and go at as many locations and as conveniently as gas.

[@nicholaspacheco6005]

Love Doug and Hoovie, got different opinions and different perspectives. Amazing keep ‘em up

[@SamuelHernandez-mp5ws]

Absolutley. It will just be the new generation of enthusiast! I am from 94, and I am a car enthusiast, and now I am en EV enthusiast.

[@adamRandolph750]

I don't even care who wins the argument, I just could listen to these guys debate all day about cars

[@Rascofresco11]

I think the thing that would be missed with the current generation of enthusiasts vs future generations is that the current ones have no emotional analog connection with software. I think an EV can be an enthusiast vehicle just based off the fact of where hotrodding came from.

[@benjaminrobinson3842]

We've actually seen generational shifts among enthusiasts before. In the 1970s, the very idea that small Japanese hatchbacks would be good enthusiast vehicles was laughable (outside East Asia, anyway). But look where we're at today ...

[@mrfishsticks266]

No evs can became a enthusiast car. Being fake does not mean good for you consciousness

[@jesusbarrera6916]

@@benjaminrobinson3842 it was only laughable in the US.... stop treating the US as if it was the entire world...

[@bobbyfaison1901]

I drive an EV. I'm modding things on it as are many other people. I don't think car enthusiasm will die from proliferation of EVs because there's always going to be someone who wants to do cool stuff to and with their fast and fun cars. I think everyone improperly conflates enthusiasm & excitement with drama. ICE cars provide drama, but EVs lack it and that's why so many of our favorite cool ICE cars "feel" special. Well, that plus nostalgia.

[@mrfishsticks266]

I hate nostalgia because it does not come back.

[@djcrownvic7017]

@@mrfishsticks266 Good point

[@kevinsamuel3930]

I’m one of the few enthusiasts who like EVs and we are rare and we get a lot of hate for it. Don’t get me wrong, I love ICE. Love the screaming exhaust and redline and all that. Yet, I love the distinct, silent, brutal torque experience that EVs provide too. They’re just easier and more comfortable to use on a daily basis which just makes driving our ICE cars on weekends all that more distinct. Imo both EVs and ICE provide a distinctly enjoyable experience.

[@aussie2uGA]

It's not a few that know the speed and performance of what the AC electric motor provides, it's a few that will actually admit it. We are in a culture at the moment where people still enjoy a Bud Light but certainly don't want to be seen with one.

[@MrSchn3ll]

Some people get excited by vacuum cleaners and refrigerators too. An EV enthusiast is not a car enthusiast in my opinion, you are an appliance enthusiast. I sold my taycan after 5 months, it's in a different universe from my 911's. Zero fun.

[@aussie2uGA]

@@MrSchn3ll Hmm, I hear ya but I've had an M5, an M3, and now the Model 3. The usability and thrashability of the Model3 is far and above what you could do with the BMW's. With them you needed to wait for oil to reach a proper temp, you didn't want to redline too often or connecting rods would become an issue, you listened for vanos ticking when back at idle, at which point you knew an immediate oil change needed to happen. Oh besides making sure oil consumption didn't drop below 750mi/qt due to the oval piston design... The Tesla? You can go 10/10th the moment you hop in it with zero concerns. Just like with women, high maintenance can be fun but it definitely gets old.

[@SoCalVipers]

@@aussie2uGA I have a Tesla Plaid and an M4. But he Model 3 is the most fun to drive. You really can thrash it around like a race car, and then 2 seconds later drive it as if you were a limo driver. With the BMW I either have everything in sport+ and be miserable to live with, or keep everything soft and have it drive like a Honda Accord - slow and boring.

[@Poopsticle_256]

@@MrSchn3llWho are you to define what a car enthusiast is and isn’t? And where is that line for being an “appliance enthusiast” drawn? If I were to say I liked minivans for their practicality, would that make me an appliance enthusiast, despite them being powered by gasoline? How about the Toyota Corolla, the quintessential “appliance car”, does that make me not a car enthusiast? Or the Honda Civic, with the range spanning from commuter cars to hot hatches, where is the line drawn there? This “Us VS them” mentality doesn’t do us any good, it just further splits up an already vast and divisive community. Saying a certain type of car enthusiast “isn’t a real car enthusiast” is blatantly flawed, there are multitudes of different reasons for liking-enjoying cars, multiple different ways of going about it, ultimately what makes someone a car enthusiast is if they’re enthusiastic about cars, there’s no need to make it more complicated than that.

[@flipsub]

Check out the luxury watch market. Automatic mechanical movements make you feel something that a quartz doesn’t. Same with cars. A throaty V8 will always make enthusiasts feel something. Car manufacturers will pivot and make smaller runs of niche enthusiast ICE vehicles.

[@NO3V]

This. The horse analogy works just as well, maybe better. No more draft horses around are there? A few racey or jumpy horses though.

[@Zundfolge]

True, but there are also a ton of serious watch collectors that still get all giddy over Casios and Swatches.

[@andrewg2618]

@@Zundfolge Correct...I'm a huge G Shock fan.....not into mechanical watches. HOWEVER, love ICE cars for the analog feel. Just can't get that manual feeling in an EV. So watches and cars are very different to me.

[@benicia21]

the three pillars of a great car are #1 looks, #2 performance, and #3 sound. electric cars eliminate #3, which makes it challenging for enthusiasts to love them.

[@Jcewazhere]

Electric cars are not silent. They sing to you as you work the motor, just like the boxer purred at me in my old Subarus. Looks are subjective, EV performance is just plain better, sound is subjective too but EVs are not silent.

[@CarlDraper]

@@Jcewazhere they sound like milkf loats on steroids. They don't give me the chills like a V8 does

[@jkinghorn]

I think Local Motors was what Hoovie was thinking of, they had the carbon fiber 3d printed Strati using Twingo drivetrain and then pivoted to the Rally Fighter kits, then think they went bankrupt, they seemed a little all over the place, but I liked the concept of you come up witha design, go down the street to your local factory and order your custom EV. I like the Chevy/Ford e-crate options, which really is even better for the environment as you're recycling old bodies and just updating the drivetrain. The enthusiast cars for those that like the drivetrain experience with revs and shifts and such will hopefully stay around with the synthetic fuels Porsche and them are trying to do. Then for those that love the art and style of cars more EVs SHOULD provide even more freedom of design, but right now all they can give us are jelly beans.

[@classyjuanito]

This is a very interesting topic! I loved the debate and I guess time will tell about our future in cars.

[@kl3ag1]

I get the comparison of EVs with Old and new iphones, the fact nobody says/wants to use their old iphones. It's kinda like old computer parts. The reason ICE cars are still loved in my opinion is they are like old mechanical/automatic watches VS smart watches. One still gives you a fairly accurate time and you're (mostly) proud of it's craftsmanship, design and mechanical feats, while the other gives you atomic accurate time, but at the expense of being obsolete quickier

[@chapman6953]

All cars after the 90s have been as much computers as electric cars so that argues doesn’t work for modern cars.

[@Pinkie007]

@@chapman6953 Well it applies if you’re talking about the drivetrain. It’s the engine that gives the car a soul, just like how it’s the movement that give a watch soul.

[@randomhero1226]

With the iPhone comparison... all I could think was "none of the apps on that iPhone 3G would even work anymore." You even have in modern era classic ICE vehicles where the radio or infotainment system is horribly dated. But you can swap them out if you want to. I could take out the old 90's radio from my corvette and put in a modern touchscreen with Apple Car Play. You can't swap out the infotainment system in an EV since they're all tied into operation of the vehicle. Plus there's the customization and tuning. I've had 2 Teslas (Y and X). About the only thing you can customize (besides interior exterior beauty mods like putting vinyl over the crummy plastic) is tires and suspension. I got rid of my Tesla and got a S550 Mustang. I've already swapped out the clutch assist spring and I have a H pipe sitting in my garage. Many more things I have planned. Can't do that with EV's. I could maybe change out the suspension and put a custom background on the infotainment center.

[@Bob_Smith19]

@@Pinkie007o machine has a soul. That’s such a stupid argument. People use it to validate their opinions. A quartz watch is more accurate and has the same lack of soul as a mechanical. I’m saying this as a watch enthusiast who doesn’t discriminate.

[@rowdy6274]

​@@Pinkie007 Does it tho? Especially on "normal" cars? Does a 1.0 VW up have more soul than an e up? Or are they both just boring eco boxes?

[@idleivey]

The car enthusiast of today will not be the car enthusiast of the future but that doesn’t mean car enthusiasm will die, it just means a new generation of enthusiasts will be born.

[@darrellm4794]

Are there microwave oven enthusiasts? EV's give me that vibe. It's an appliance, it's thrown out when it's no longer worth fixing. I'd say definitely there won't be future EV enthusiasts if self driving cars ever become a thing. I'd have said they absolutely will 5 years ago, but now I'm not so sure, since computational advancements are plateauing.

[@Biwa_Hayahide]

@@darrellm4794 most people think of their cars as appliances in the same manner. Once it’s out of warranty or not worth fixing they will get a new one. Enthusiast are a very small group of people for any type of product, that was and will always be the case.

[@darrellm4794]

@@Biwa_Hayahide I agree enthusiasts are a small subset of car owners, but enough to sustain a market. There's no concours d'elegance for microwaves.

[@Jcewazhere]

Or the old people could learn... lol

[@carefreeclubhouse1714]

You 2 are just MAGIC! Love this content!

[@AFJDM]

I think there very much will be an EV enthusiast following as time goes on. We're still in the very early years of production long-range EVs. When the automobile first came out at an attainable point as more than an engineering project, like a Model T, did people say "nothing can replace my horse!"? Definitely. As more products and technology are enhanced and refined and improved and ways to imbue EVs with soul that don't cost seven figures, even at a 5 figure price point, there will definitely be an electric enthusiast crowd that grows. We may even get to the point where people look at ICE cars and ask, "ew, you put this disgusting expensive liquid in a super complex noisy box and it's slower and more expensive to maintain?". It may look like that in a few decades.

[@deptofcarstereorepair]

The future is not EVs, its bicycles, busses and trains.

[@SuperSpruce]

I wish there can be a healthy modding/tuning culture to EVs like there are in gas cars. Want more power? Swap the motor for one with a fancy axial flux and tighter coil windings!

[@Wrathlon]

Im sure this will become a thing - people are already using 3rd party controllers and custom battery assemblies to put Tesla, etc motors into other cars.

[@hadtopicausername]

A perspective from a Norwegian car enthusiast: I recently took my 23 year old Golf IV in for a service, and after the inspection, was awarded with quite the list of things that would need sorting in order to get it through its next equivalent of the British MOT. My parents bought that car when new, I absolutely loved driving it, and had put quite a bit of money into it the last few years. But now I just had to yank myself out of the sunken cost fallacy. The costs of keeping it going exceeded the car's value by miles and miles. Pure ICE cars make up for 2-3 percent of new car sales here now. And the VW dealer was selling off their current fleet of demo cars. So I'm now driving a 2021 model year VW ID.4 GTX, and I am absolutely smitten with it. The nerdy part of me is already finding joy in calculating the best ways of making use of Norway's excellent charging network, and all the spots in the parking cellar of the apartment complex where I live, were already readied for home charging. No more filling up with petrol at 2,0-2,5 dollars per litre for me! Not for everyday driving, anyway... At the same time, I'm also having my 1968 model year Beetle restored. A car which is the complete opposite of my new EV. To me, it's just getting driving pleasure in two very different forms. One car that wafts me along in sublime silence and ease, and one where the feeling of speed and wonderful noise never fails to put a smile on my face. I see no reason why the two should be mutually exclusive, and I know there are plenty of car enthusiasts here that feel the same way.

[@calokraine5901]

Lucky u...but the rest of the world doesn't have the awesome charging network for the near future .. hence Norway will stil sell a lot of 🛢crude 😅

[@rootbeer666]

As an enthusiast I like my V6+electric hybrid, I get the roar of the engine and effortless smooth speed of electric generating the output gear ratio. I can definitely appreciate the brutal torque and speed of a performance electric car.

[@sgttomas]

This was a great discussion ❤

[@CorgiTheCorgi]

I'm a car enthusiast forever, tried open-minded, bought a Bolt EUV, used it as my main transportation tool, I like it only for communicating, once I have more than 150+ miles trip, it becomes a math and luck problem. I have to calculate which charging station is ideal in terms of distance, and also, need to calculate the remaining percentage in order to get a faster charging speed (for folks who don't know, the more remaining battery % you have, the slower it charges, over 60% you only get half of the max charging speed and lower). When you get to the station, you have to wish there is an empty charging station for you and it WORKS and delivers nominal charing speed as it advised. After owning the EV, I will never ever give up on my ICE car, EV for long distance driving is not viable.

[@TrinityDestroyer]

For me, when I travel, I drive. If I can’t get there by land, I don’t go. I used to drive often between Denver Colorado and Phoenix Arizona. I can do that drive in a day (14 hours give or take). On paper, it would take about 4 days to do that same trip in an EV. Practically, it’s near impossible due to the lack of actual available charging situations between these two states, and the high likelyhood of getting carjacked or robbed if you tried to stop in Albuquerque. Lol for the rest of the small towns, most just don’t have the architecture to support travels charging their cars.

[@YoshMaster]

Not viable YET

[@Jcewazhere]

First big trip I did in my 2017 Bolt was Denver to Des Moines. It went fine. This was 4 years ago almost. I regularly drive Pueblo to Denver and back, often without any public charging or even L2.

[@Jcewazhere]

@@TrinityDestroyer Denver to Phoenix in my 2017 Bolt would take 22.5 hours per ABRP. Where did you get that '4 days' number? 14 hours of driving without a real stop seems like a chore, breaking it up by staying somewhere along the route for a night would make it much better. Either way though even my 4 year old budget EV can do that trip in a day if you push it. 2 days would be easy. In a newer EV, like the ID4, it would take just 16 hours. 15 if you took a break at a hotel and charged overnight.

[@CorgiTheCorgi]

@@TrinityDestroyer there are few times I had to wait at the charging station at the mid of the night and all nearby stores are closed, which means no restroom access, no one ask for help if anything happened. Safety issue is certainly something to consider when you have to park in the middle of nowhere for charging.

[@aequitaskiller]

It's so annoying when people say that the "free market" should decide, while ignoring the fact that the government heavily subsidizes gasoline.

[@registrationaccount1034]

How you gonna just forget to mention the world's newest quickest car all ICE, no batteries. Dodge Demon 170. 0-60 1.66 seconds and runs 8s in the 1/4 as delivered?

[@GokieReal]

This is an incredible conversation great job Doug and Hoovie

[@fonz-su6xb]

They're the best!

[@julianevans9548]

Electric cars are not a long-term solution to either environmental or transportation issues. The main reason governments are promoting them is to support the car industry.

[@fonz-su6xb]

@@julianevans9548 they're better than ice vehicles.

[@krisgabrielson4020]

I think fast spinning high kv motors and really torquey low kv motors and gears on an electric is a real possibility for the future and would greatly effect how the vehicle drives. The cool electric cars are going to be the ones you CAN mod. Ultra simple electric vehicles will be the way

[@vaxt]

Yeah they’re kind of talking about things they don’t understand. E-bikes have a huge enthusiast community and tons of people are hot rodding and comparing mid drives to hub motors, motor windings, different controllers, dual motors etc. for cars it’s just a new and immature space right now.

[@petersoumanis5494]

Think of a t bucket with a motor and a battery. I'm not so sure in today's landscape that sort of car will be possible, due to the raft of safety items you need to have on a car

[@Pakadork]

Speaking for myself here: I am such a romanticist when it comes to the engineering behind traditional cars that I am bored by EVs.

[@alexbrown8160]

I wish Doug would have done a video on the Nissan Leaf when it was new. My SL from 2014 has great features, is super quirky, and seems in line with weird things Doug likes.

[@arbyfiles]

The combustion engine gives a car soul and personality. It breathes, groans, growls and screams. I have yet to experience an electric car that feels alive the way a special gas engine can. Electric cars feel like transportation appliances.

[@bartp7969]

for "most" people, they are nothing more then that, which is fine of course

[@aussie2uGA]

This was the old argument 10 years ago - if it didn't make noise, it wasn't "good". Then people realized the gas cars were so much slower and required so much more maintenance and repair. One day we will view gas cars like 60's muscle cars, they are cool in the sense of what they represented at the time, made all the noise, had all the gears, but at the end of the day are just interesting to look at for their style and design.

[@user-rm7kb3il6x]

@@aussie2uGA i think you missed it at the end. yes they did like them for their style and design, but mostly people look back at it as a moment in time that will never happen again. big power, manual transmission, no electronic nannys, sexy styling, loud big block v8s, thats what people think of when they think of 60s musclecars. not just the style, its a whole ethos about how cars were back in the day. Yes, every car back then had a focus on design whether it was an aconobox or a high power musclecar, but gas was cheap what comes along with cheap gas? big engines with lots of torque and power. so even the cars that wouldnt be considered musclecars by today, weren't the same as todays cheap cars. they're slower now because of tire tech, but they were much louder, more brash and extravagant vs the cheap car of today. maybe thats what gas cars will seem like in general, though i fear our gradual shift into ev's might cut off the mechanical aspect to it since even gas cars are full of so many computers and things like throttle by wire, brake by wire, and now in some cars steering by wire (although the ladder is currently only used in a single lexus ev)

[@aussie2uGA]

@@user-rm7kb3il6x I had a ‘67 GTO, it was fun and certainly loud. But it handled terribly, could not stop to save it’s life, needed constant carb adjustments to stay running right, and was terribly slow by todays standards, even with Hoosiers on it. The Tesla provides so much performance and zero maintenance. Sometimes we don’t know just how much better a disruptive technology is until we’ve had it for awhile. The iPhone showed us this.

[@arbyfiles]

@@aussie2uGA Tinkering with and adjusting the engine and other components is what makes cars so fun as a hobby. The car always being broken means working on it is always available to keep you and your friends busy on the weekend. Also, the car breaking is part of its personality. The more flawless something is, the more sterile and lifeless. I don't even know what phone I had 3 years ago, straight up forgot. I can damn sure tell you a fond memory or exciting anecdote about every car I've owned.

[@linsanity6059]

Doug almost backhanding Hoovie at the start while saying THIS! is all I needed to see haha

[@AdamG1983]

Tyler kinda looked pissed for a second too haha

[@duck8280]

Wow this is a great topic! I TOTALLY understand the same driving experience with every EV. I think the most they can do is make like a Type R version of the same EV... with a little more juice and great handling.. but yeah thats it lol

[@veddoshi4023]

Great video as always! One thing I wanted to point out about having different drive trains for EVs, Toyota is working on an "Electric Manual" car. I do not know the specifics but if more companies adopt that, it could have an impact on the driving experience. Also worth mentioning that the Taycan already has a 2 shift gearbox for higher and lower speeds. Maybe the number of gears increase and you can essentially get several different drive trains in a single car which I think might be something car enthusiasts would be into. Would really like to know people's opinion(especially Doug's)as this is exactly the kind of thing they were discussing in the video.

[@MrSchn3ll]

Will never happen for an under 2% take rate in the US for manuals. The engineering and testing required for a new gearbox is too much to bear and no one will buy it. It's an engineering exercise similar to a concept car. The Taycan shifts automatically and you barely feel it, I owned one for 5 months and couldn't wait to sell it. Nothing makes an EV fun.

[@neilturner6749]

@@MrSchn3llthe take rate for manuals isn’t a true reflection of consumer choice, it’s partly that they’re increasingly hard to find in anything other than small vehicles, which have never dominated the sales charts like they do here in Europe.

[@gerardc5457]

There is something to be said about the brand recognized sound, whether it’s a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo, etc. You take that away, you definitely lose some of the soul of a car.

[@JarJarBinkz68]

All the soul. The engine and sound are why people buy those cars. Imagine driving a fully electric lambo 🤮🤢🤮

[@joecovey2235]

Tech will advance and they will get faster. That's all they have, no soul as you correctly say.

[@Arbi5577]

Yup at that point it's just how "cool" can they make the box they set on top of the ev skateboard look. You take the top off and they are mostly all the same, no sound, no feel, no modifying, just numb.

[@chapman6953]

Soul is the dumbest empty argument against EVs.

[@draggy6544]

@@joecovey2235 iphone on wheels… listen i appreciate my iphone but when it comes time to get a new one not a millisecond of thought is spent misses the old one. I sold my supercharged s4 few months ago and i still miss that car even though i just bought the last of the na high revving v8 rs5s (best sounding car i have ever came across and i work at a dealership

[@redsquare5325]

There is a big differences between a car enthusiast and a Petrol head. Doug is a big car enthusiast and Jeremy Clarkson is a petrol head.

[@Its-Just-Gizmo]

Jeremy Clarkson is also a monumental fanny.

[@Whalt1988]

When Clarkson did a side by side comparison of the M3 and the i8 he ended up driving off in the i8 at the end.

[@BratislavMetulskie]

@@Whalt1988 yes sure, because its not scripted at all

[@macnlz]

I currently own a Model 3 Performance, and I'm in line for a Lotus Emira, because I want something that feels more alive around corners, and requires me to stay engaged rather than driving itself. I'll likely keep both, for their very different experiences. I'm excited to see what Lotus will do after their pivot to EV-only, because it will be about handling feel more than raw straight-line performance. No matter which way this goes, enthusiasts will find something to be enthusiastic about. At the low cost end, it will be cosmetic stuff (like it's always been), and at the high end, I think stuff like weight distribution / reduction, suspension components, power delivery (gearing?), cooling etc. will remain fun technical challenges to tweak.

[@AlexS-ei7kp]

What do you do for a living? Just wondering. My guess, engineer?

[@macnlz]

@@AlexS-ei7kp Of sorts. I love to dabble, when it comes to tech. :)

[@michaelrawson7250]

In Wisconsin, we don’t have the supportive infrastructure for a massive amount of EVs. Unless you are in the city you will do okay, but not every city has enough for people anyway. Also it’s hard to work on these cars unless you are in the Milwaukee or Madison.

[@leonardocrncec9566]

Interesting thing is that building Rimac Nevera wasn't as easy as just putting motors and battery inside, it is much more than that. E.g. brakes work by wire and are made so you don't feel transition between regenerative braking and conventional brakes, it has electric steering bc it supports self driving and they spent a bunch of hours perfecting a steering so it doesn't feel numb like most cars that have that. Also, the torque vectoring that self adjusts to the surface that is on. I think that car enthusiasts will love some of the electric cars and its characteristics because there is also handling and feel that matter on the racetrack, and all of that depends on the cars proportions, weight balance, suspension ... We can agree that cars are getting boring and we must accept that. Personally, I don't like electric cars as much, but I don't hate them either. Just like I can't imagine driving an automatic car, I hate automatic cars. So I can understand people that hate electric cars. But if automatic transmission didn't ruin enthusiast cars, electric powertrains won't either!

[@RearWheelZeal]

"We can agree that cars are getting boring and we must accept that." LOL! no thanks!

[@MillionDollarBanana]

My take as of right now is that the next generation of car enthusiasts are going to have to rely more so on custom aesthetics. They may not feel as differently about the situation because they will grow up around electric vehicles.

[@KaiPonte]

I love that Noodle made an appearance! I do not plan to give up my '99 Lexus completely, but do enjoy my Ford Mach-e. May want to drop an electric motor into a Corvair someday.

[@stephenbalk4978]

I think you’ll see a lot of conversation kits for gas cars to keep them electric with manual transmissions, I’ve seen a few builds on KZbin and they look great. As for the newer EVs, I think a big thing will be modifying the control systems for the electronics, being able to literally dial yourself into the wheels of the car, the brakes, the way the engine is distributing power, things like that. You won’t really be able to tune EVs for quite some time (think when gas cars were starting and the dramatic changes in performance form just the 20s to the 30s) but I do see people still wanting and finding creative ways to feel connected to their cars, I truly envision a world where your ev can dive you to work and you can drive IT like a starship home. (I think everyone has wanted to fly a ship in Star Wars or Star Trek at one point in their life)

[@Jcewazhere]

Check out Electric Classic Cars, they do EV swaps all the time.

[@kenarts11]

All I want is a 500hp V8 car

[@tonycomer1415]

@@davevolz6138 He said nothing about fast. 500hp V8 has the sound

[@illuminatidestroyerbear2231]

With a manual transmission please

[@giancarlolugo9586]

​@@illuminatidestroyerbear2231with a 7 speed manual transmission.

[@parkyt13]

​@Illuminati Destroyer Bear yes. No pathetic Automatic scum

[@Krzysztof_88]

And all I want is 5 cylinders, manual and rear wheel drive, preferably coupe but could be sedan or hatchback, whatever. Just give me a manual rear wheel driven 5 pot

[@Flies2FLL]

Is it me or does it not appear that Tyler would rather be anywhere else~?

[@gf9898]

Thinking the same thing

[@aussie2uGA]

Well maybe he just came from a meeting with the divorce attorney?

[@Flies2FLL]

@@aussie2uGA

[@jorgecintron9674]

For me, it’s all about convenience and reliability. I don’t care about saving the planet or impressing anyone. I have 2 EV,s and since 2019 have not gone to a dealer nor paid for gas. I have not had any issues at all. That’s what I want! Not having to do a damn thing.

[@kevinhammack3915]

I think currently the focus is pushing the tech to build belief in reliability and range for the masses, then later character will come into design, for example dodge’s electric charger has redesigned the sound already after criticism

[@Mongolopolis8]

I have to agree with Hoovie on both the reliability and the „The EVs of now will become obsolete tomorrow“ standpoint. As an European car enthusiast who has owned about 7 Cars by now, I only had a single instance of an actually expensive part breaking on a gasoline car. While a gas engine is comprised out of hundreds of small, largely inexpensive parts, that can be individually replaced, a modern production Electric Drive Unit is just one solid component. VAG even has the coils fused with the housing, making a replacement impossible. Even a Headgasket is only like a 20-70€ part. Have the Head resurfaced and you are at 270€, 500-600€ with Labour for the entire problem. While a battery will set you back around 7k€-15k€ depending on the generation of electric car. But that’s not the real issue here. If a normal ICE Car gets older, it might become less reliable, but will still function almost as good as on day one. A used Electric car will have its Battery degraded to the Point, where you HAVE to pay the 10k on top of the purchase price to not have a completely useless chunk of e waste. A consumer can stomach bills of 500-2000€, but 10k+ is like a completely different dimension. Most of my Cars didn’t even cost 10k when I bought them.

[@accordinglyryan]

Hoovie is spot on. EVs are fast, some look good and all that stuff, but we're definitely losing some of the visceral emotion you get driving a gas powered manual transmission vehicle for example. It won't kill car enthusiasts, it's just going to breed a different kind of enthusiast. One with money because I can't afford any of these electric cars.

[@Jcewazhere]

I got a used Bolt for $15,000 a few years back, best car I've ever owned by far. Other 2 were an old and really old Subaru. Used Leafs, Fiats, Golfs, and a few others can be had for under $10k even now. Heck even a new Bolt is under $30k iirc. Not sure why you're whining about price on a channel that regularly shows of multi-hundred thousand dollar cars.

[@accordinglyryan]

@@Jcewazhere None of those vehicles are sporty or much fun to drive, and the range is pretty poor with them being older model years. Not to mention I'm talking about brand new cars. The Model 3 Performance is where I'd start with "fun" EVs and that is well north of $40K. I'm whining because just a few years ago we had plenty of cool enthusiast options around the $30K mark and now anything fun is unobtanium (besides maybe the Toyota GR86). The state of the car market is awful at the moment and yes I am salty about it. It's even worse with EVs; all the cool ones are $75-100K and up.

[@izno73]

Having driven a Model S, a Merc EQE and a Polestar 2 Performance, I can say that er IS a difference. The EQE looks and feels like a Merc, the Polestar looks and feels like a Volvo and the Tesla was stupid fast. So...only the ICE missing does not neuter the experience. The Vol...uhm..Polestar in race mode with all the Öhlins shocks etc was a decent driver which eventually tried to kill us (wet, cobblestone, pushed very hard). That was fun. Good car ;)

[@raphaelbruegger]

I‘m a petrolhead since my early days and I love cars of all sorts. But since 2013 I knew, there will be the time, I‘d call a BMW i3 my own. My BMW i3. And here I am, 2018 I got myself a used, first gen. i3 with the small battery, without any extras and my dream was reality. In 2020 I decided to get myself a new i3s, built to order and I‘m in love. My ride is now somewhat over 3 years old, it has over 147‘000 km on the odometer and I still can‘t express what this car means to me. It‘s an all day everyday gift to me. Sure, there are so many older, newer, better cars out there, but my i3s is my i3s and I‘ll never ever let go of it. 🖤

[@NO3V]

Seems kind of ridiculous to just wave away the huge crowd of Tesla fans - it's not like they are all hypnotized (I'd assume). The cars are *fun* in performance and features and are practical and are well equipped and are cheap to run.

[@oliverfriborg292]

These videos are honestly my favorites from doug. I could just listen to him and Tylor talk about anything Car related all day❤️

[@05Forenza]

This was a great discussion. I do really like my ICE vehicles. I've not owned a full EV (I've had a PHEV), but I drove an XC40 Recharge not long ago and it genuinely impressed me. Made me laugh tearing away from stoplights. Its the same laugh I had from a 415hp PHEV Volvo V60, even though that had an engine note. Idk. We'll have to see what the future holds. This tech is basically brand new, we need to give it a little time for creativity to work around legislation.

[@y1QAlurOh3lo756z]

What do you think of manually controlled torque vectoring as the "engaging driving experience" for EVs?

[@patsyypatsyy6458]

Hoovie is right though. They don’t excite me either

[@flawlessfatality8105]

Speaking for myself...... no, never. I actually skip ever doug EV videos cause I couldn't care less

[@nickporter4279]

There are a lot of points of differentiation that you *can* engineer into an EV - the problem is more that *currently* most companies are opting for the same solutions. - Motor sound. Most companies try to make their EVs as quiet as possible, but the Rimac Nevera, VW ID.R, Tajima E-Runner and Formula E cars all make quite a bit of noise, and are all significantly different to each other. That's a *mechanical* difference, not software. - Driving sound. It's now legally mandated that EVs must have a sound generator for pedestrians who are somehow deaf to tyre noise but can hear everything else, and this can be anything the designers want. Some companies go for a generic humming, some go for sci-fi synth noises, some pipe in combustion engine noise. Sometimes the cabin is soundproofed so the driver doesn't hear it, sometimes it's piped right behind your ear. - Gearing. You *can* design electric powertrains with multiple gears. It's rarely objectively useful, but it's not objectively useful to have a manual gearbox in any car nowadays, yet we still have them in enthusiast cars. Multi-speed gearboxes improve performance and energy use at higher speeds, and it's hard to stall them. - Power delivery. E-motors do still have *some* variance in power delivery lag, although of course it's a lot smaller than the difference between, say, a turbocharged and naturally aspirated engine. Tesla pick-up is an instantaneous jackhammer; Nissan Leaf pick-up is smoother and fractionally delayed which fits its character as a more cosseting vehicle. - Regenerative braking. Regen power is hugely variable between different cars. Some cars stop so rapidly after your foot's off the accelerator that you almost never need to use the disc brakes, some cars have a long stopping distance with regen so need a bit of brake pedal use in aggressive driving, some cars don't have enough regen power to come to a stop at all, and some tie all regen to the brake pedal so that lifting off the accelerator just makes you coast like in a combustion car. - Handling bias. You can change the chassis balance by mounting the motors in the front or rear (like the difference between a front, mid or rear engined combustion car), or with the design of the battery pack. (The original Tesla Roadster for example was ridiculously rear-biased, as the entire powertrain was squeezed behind the cabin.) And of course there are the usual differences with vehicle packaging and power level. The i3 is the lightest recent car with a BMW badge, but the iX and iX3 are among the heaviest. So the i3 has far more nimble handling, launching and tactility, but the SUVs are a lot more powerful, which gives you a bigger push in the back once they've overcome the inertia of having double the weight. They're much comfier-riding, too. Most of the traits that enthusiasts like can be engineered into an EV. Noise variance? Can be done with hardware *or* software. Handling nuance? Mount the battery pack and motors with a slight central-rear bias. Oversteer? Loosen the traction control. Gearshift tactility? Gear the motor for at least three ratios and add a manual shifter. Light weight? Fit a small battery pack. The only things you flat-out can't achieve with an all-electric powertrain are motor-derived bass noise, motor-derived vibration, and the smell. In return you get less maintenance, far lower running costs, fuel on your driveway, power delivery on par with the best naturally aspirated engines, ultra-low weight distribution, the ability to run the powertrain or climate control without gassing bystanders (or yourself if the window's open), often more storage space, potentially more structural rigidity and crumple zones... It's a lot. Enough to compete with the fun factor of a naturally aspirated Italian V12? No. But versus most engines, hell the frick yes.

[@MrHav1k]

I definitely think they will. It will just be different than how we're used to.

[@ascended1924]

I consider myself a car enthusiast and I would definitely keep a Tesla as a "grocery/family" car while keeping the more fun cars for daily driving, if that makes sense.

[@thatguywiththemiata]

Must have never driven one, poorly built garbage😂