Doug Wilson and John Piper / Desiring God and Bacon

The 2012 Desiring God conference for Pastors concluded with this two-hour-long conversation between John Piper and Doug Wilson, moderated by Joe Rigney.
Time markers:
0:01:06 - Unpacking the meaning behind the individual mission statements.
0:07:09 - The differences in how those mission statements are framed.
0:10:48 - Unpacking, comparing, and contrasting two subthemes: “Don’t waste your life” (Piper) and “Living out the good life one family at a time” (Wilson).
0:19:14 - Counteracting the negative tendencies of these subthemes (burnout/comfort).
0:23:00 - The shaping influence of Jonathan Edwards.
0:31:50 - On making the doctrine of the Trinity prominent in ministry.
0:35:50 - Edwards on the Trinity.
0:39:12 - The shaping influence of C.S. Lewis.
0:52:00 - Defining Christian Hedonism, differences and similarities.
1:02:05 - Does gratitude for material gifts lead to joy in the Giver? Or, does joy in God lead to enjoyment of the material gifts?
1:09:52 - On the role of self-denial in the Christian life.
1:15:22 - Discussion over Wilson’s statement, “God is most glorified in me when I love what he has given to me, for its own sake.”
1:32:05 - God delights in us because of Christ. But does he love me for me? Does he even like me, my personality, etc?
1:40:35 - Engaging the public square on social issues. Go deep on a few key issues (race, abortion), or address a broad range of issues (taxation, climate change, etc)?
1:49:00 - Responding to cultural sins with tears of sorrow or stinging satire?
1:58:53 - Closing prayer (Piper).

[@allora6826]

These two men have become like spiritual papas to me. The world can only benefit from hearing them in discussion. I only wish they would do it more often. Thank you so much for this.

[@jacobmaier8993]

Why can't we all discuss issues and disagreements we have with such maturity and charity as these leaders? You can't talk about many of these issues and others with so many; even bretheren. It is grievous. People's presuppositions and judgements snuff out Christian charity and choke the lines of communication and the sharpening one of another...it is a shame on the modern church.

[@anarchorepublican5954]

unless I'm deeply mistaken...it is Pastor Wilson, who is the true ecumenical spirit here...he just happens to be conservative and calvinist enough to fit within Pastor Piper's narrow predestinational pipe...he's not nearly so charitable to those of us who don't... the two basically disagree on baptism and eschatology (neither of which either considers particularly essential)... ...their biggest difference is in the understanding of who in fact is "brethren".... I heard Pastor Wilson say recently..."...I have more in common with anyone who has undergone triune baptism in Teheran(,Iran)...than my next door neighbor, the unbeliever"...One Lord, One Body, One Faith, One Spirit, One Baptism...the fellowship and unity of Christ's Body is a gift to be embraced by the members of that body itself...not a blessing bestowed by the same bloviating "Bishops" who bully us from fully enjoying it...fellowship like foreign travel, is a mind and spirit infusing adventure...

[@ninjason57]

I used to listen to John Piper a lot for a long while, like several hours a week for a couple years. I know his passion means well and is a true believer, but after listening to him I was always left with the weighty spirit of legalism rather than the free spirit of grace.

[@britterz483]

Man.. I'm learning so much from this conversation!! Thanks so much. I appreciate Doug's wisdom.

[@90-17woodworking]

These are the best, thanks for sharing. It’s almost like Pastor Doug is this different thing on display for all these people and it’s weird and sounds funny, but everyone agrees w this crazy new idea. I smile every time I hear something and imagine how the crowd is shocked and turning over a new leaf at the same time! Keep it up cannon press

[@bryanplett9046]

God bless these faithful men!

[@90-17woodworking]

When Piper says “we love to define terms”... reading Sayers lost tools of learning, she hates the lost art of defining terms. So yes, Christians must love to define terms bc we love truth and understanding. Well done men!

[@CanonPress]

Or are you saying she hates that we've lost the art of defining terms? If that's what you meant, we wholeheartedly agree!

[@90-17woodworking]

Yes, the latter.

[@jacobmaier8993]

Look up to these men so much

[@colenorville6676]

What a thought provoking discussIon! I find myself wanting Doug Wilson to be right on many things, but fearing that John Piper is right on many of the topics over which they disagreed. The final comments about one another at the end were quite uplifting. I too struggle with introspection like Piper and am grateful for his generous remarks.

[@dianameyreles4888]

Whew. Can’t believe these two sharing the same stage.

[@kevinclark9587]

Lol i cant put my finger on it, but there's something so funny about the way Piper interacts with Doug

[@adamdenny5205]

yeah. these convos are rich because even the disagreements are so defined.

[@aztec0112]

It's hard not to miss Piper hosing the deck at the beginning.

[@thecarolinaherald]

Awesome conversation.

[@mgrotheer]

Should have another one of these 10 years after the fact

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Wow. This is fun!!! 😮

[@MrRea112]

One cannot “come and die” unless one knows Jesus as Lord personally. Too many Christians know much ABOUT God without knowing Him as God. That’s where passion starts. Only then can one start to die.

[@stevenpage1932]

I think as we mature in our Godliness we get to live more vertical than horizontal but still have our feet on the ground.

[@user-xq2bm3nq8y]

What is of interest is that John, with his emphasis on missions has lost his children. Doug, with his emphasis on living a good Christian life, has his family loving Jesus. The plus, is that with Doug’s view, he is more effective in missions.

[@jarnobreen5400]

Piper did not lose his children only one, and doug did not safe his children, God did

[@user-xq2bm3nq8y]

@@jarnobreen5400 I’m not sure that John has only lost one. I think his daughter may be the only one who is a true Christian. The others are all woke to one extent or another. You assertion that God is responsible for the outcome of Doug’s kids is obvious, as God is also responsible for every atom in the universe. So what’s your point?

[@SameStory_NewEnding]

I’m not that big of a Piper fan, but I appreciate him for saying what he did at the end, about memory, knowledge, and the intake of it. I have the same problem sometimes. 😆 I feel like a lot of useless knowledge stays trapped in my head, and things I want to remember disappear!! Lol

[@jacobzosangliana8443]

Good discussion. Paul E. Miller's position about overspiritualizing prayer seems to resonate with Doug's position about the 'period stop' talk.

[@CowboyPilot79]

9:30 - i know this is 3 years late, but your verb was in the "amen" =)

[@philipmurray9796]

I feel like Piper's compassion for people has led him to sway with the wind rather than stand like a mighty oak.

[@Bloogly89]

At risk of oversimplifying... these two guys have much in common, but at times different emphases (like when they talked about gratitude). They are like two sides of a pendulum. People may swing back and forth between these viewpoints on what they need to hear in the moment, based on emphasis.

[@YSLRD]

Overindulgence in gifts ( food, sex, possessions) can lead to greed and obsession. Self discipline is necessary for moderation.

[@jordanjohnson9415]

Piper vs Wilson’s empahsis in ministry: Piper worries that the biggest threat to the church is that people might love their gifts more than God, Wilson worries that people think that their love for the gifts threaten their love for the giver. I can’t help but think that this conversation is what birthed Joe Rigney’s (the moderator) book “Strangely Bright”. If you haven’t read it, do so.

[@DavidEgesdal]

Just finished that book. I thought the same thing.

[@Jeremiahsamraj]

Thanks for the recommendation.

[@InkTechnique]

Have anyone else noticed that John Piper looks like comedian Larry David? 😁

[@UltraX34]

yeah lol there's a lot of memes about it haha

[@G1stGBless]

Jew noticed that too ehh?

[@colton7373]

@@benneisam 🤣

[@mrich21087]

Piper is unironically funny and Larry David is the opposite.

[@benprestridge6787]

His doctrine is just as silly as David’s work

[@AnHebrewChild]

I dig 38:47 -- a fantastic (and _direct_ & pithy) answer, seems to me.

[@JordanShurmer]

Would love to see a follow up discussion.. especially in the middle of NQN

[@johnl.2895]

"a calvinist under jove" 🔥🔥🔥 Get em!

[@felixguerrero6062]

This conversation is very enlightening and genuinely demonstrate the weakness and strangely superficial nature of Piper's "Christian Hedonism" in that it refuses to engage with the "giveness" (gift-like) of the creational order. Doug's contribution is incredibly helpful.

[@DAce-vu5ct]

This makes no sense

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

doug sounds like he's trying to distance himself from augustine's neoplatonic model with the rejection of the contemplation of absolute divine simplicity. i think this is wise and i wish i'd been taught to appreciate the creation more instead of escaping into my head to waste my life on metaphysics. things would have been much better for me. he's right that too many christians reject the material world instinctively.

[@anarchorepublican5954]

unless I'm deeply mistaken...it is Pastor Wilson, who is the true ecumenical spirit here...he just happens to be conservative and calvinist enough to fit within Pastor Piper's narrow predestinational pipe...he's not nearly so charitable to those of us who don't... the two basically disagree on baptism and eschatology (neither of which either considers particularly essential)... ...their biggest difference is in the understanding of who in fact is "brethren".... I heard Pastor Wilson say recently..."...I have more in common with anyone who has undergone triune baptism in Teheran(,Iran)...than my next door neighbor, the unbeliever"...One Lord, One Body, One Faith, One Spirit, One Baptism...the fellowship and unity of Christ's Body is a gift to be embraced by the members of that body itself...not a blessing bestowed by the same bloviating "Bishops" who bully us from fully enjoying it...fellowship like foreign travel, is a mind and spirit infusing adventure...

[@hapaxlegomenon4990]

John Piper's explanation stating at 11:40 totally wreaks (in a great way) of Psalm 73. The culmination of which is Psalm 73:25,26 "Whom have I in heaven but You? And besides You, I desire nothing in earth. My flesh and my heart may fail, But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." That word Portion is the culmination of it. God is our reward. This makes it easy to see that Jesus reigns and must reign in every aspect of our lives. Verses 27 and 28 cap it off... "For, behold, those who are far from You will perish; You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You. But as for me, the nearness of God is my good; I have made the Lord God my refuge, That I may tell of all Your works." The whole purpose is to tell, magnify, the works of Jesus, of God. I don't know too much about Piper nor of Wilson, but I appreciated this video.

[@breaktime919]

So what happened between these two that they won’t have these face to face discussions anymore

[@the32712]

Piper seems to have gone semi-woke. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

[@deadeyeridge]

The gift distinction at 1:00:00 is demonstrated very well with the parable of the minas. Christ clearly identifies a servant, who's received a great gift of a mina, but is too scared to used that gift and wraps in a handkerchief.

[@johnlocke6800]

It's telling that Rigney ended up in Moscow years later.

[@howardhilliard9286]

Piper said he's ignorant in the political sphere and then he changed his mind.

[@thirstypilgrim97]

what is a "pano " baptist? @00:44

[@CanonPress]

a "pedobaptist" believes the son or daughter of at least one believer is in the new covenant on the ground of their parents faith, so they baptize babies.

[@ThejaTseikha]

@@CanonPress If I may ask, Could you give Scriptural basis for that? Pedobaptism.

[@matthewsheppard7050]

@@ThejaTseikha acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

[@kerrylawson7515]

Paleo, as in stone age.

[@princekermit0]

​@@matthewsheppard7050 so did the propehet Jeremiah.... even wrote a book called lamentations

[@Chirhopher]

Doug; How to do a "plug"! ~ 50 min. in. #Teach me how to Dougy

[@jenniferherb5212]

I've been seeing a lot of these discussions between Piper and Wilson. I wish I was more like Wilson. His grace with Piper is amazing, I'm more emotional like Piper perhaps because I'm female. God bless everyone at cannon press

[@sketchbook1]

Did he say, "POST-Millennial?!" I didn't know those existed in the 21st Century... !

[@evantheorthodox740]

Read Wilson's books on the subject, as well as R.C. Sproul, Gary Demar, Kenneth Gentry, David Chilton, Gary North, Warfield, Athanasius, ect...... very hard to get around them biblically....

[@sketchbook1]

@@evantheorthodox740 Sorry, but they have a HUGE haul if they want to make the Scriptures say that Christ only returns after a victorious church causes the Millennium to happen beforehand. It's knocked out in the first round of study. "But when the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 "And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.…" Daniel 7:24-26 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast-all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.…" Rev 13:7-8 The Scriptures show a world in which it gets quite WORSE before Jesus returns and makes it better -- the Scriptures show that it is Jesus Himself who sets up His kingdom and millennial reign.

[@evantheorthodox740]

@@sketchbook1 You have misrepresented the position. First, the Church doesn't cause the millennial reign to happen, Jesus is already ruling and reigning as we speak. Read Psalm 110:1 . Next, you quoted Luke 18, clearly talking about Christ coming in Judgment against the covenant breakers in that generation, which would "not pass away until all of these things take place." The same can be said from your Revelation passage, describing things that will "soon take place, for the time is near." Rev. 1:1-3. Read please David Chilton's Paradise Restored, Day's of Vengeance, Sproul's "The Last Day's According to Jesus", and Gentry's "He Shall Have Dominion" to get warmed up.

[@sketchbook1]

@@evantheorthodox740 I certainly apologize if I've misrepresented your position. I've not totally misrepresented the postmillennial position, as it varies depending upon to whom one speaks. What I will say is that in the Scriptures, Revelation 20, Jesus is shown to come down at His Return (which according to the Gospels will be a literal, physical return, not a figurative or metaphorical one) and Satan will be bound and thrown into the abyss. The Return is listed as happening BEFORE any type or manner of Millennium, whether symbolic or literal. This is the biggest camel that Post-Millennial proponents have to swallow in straining out the gnat of the timing issues you pointed out. HOWEVER YOU SLICE IT, you simply can't have a Millennium until the Return-- the Appearing of Christ physically to earth. The Scriptures simply don't picture for us an allegorized Return, or a symbolic binding of Satan.

[@evantheorthodox740]

@@sketchbook1 Unfortunately for the literalist, we are dealing with symbols in the book of Revelation.... Satan is a spiritual being bound with metal chain..... The Harlot is a symbol, as is the coming on the clouds of heaven, whom Jesus said that they would witness.... It is up to us to do the heavy work to understand this, using the analogy of faith.. About the binding of Satan, I would humbly ask: who is the "strong man" bound in Matthew 12, and what Kingdom came upon them, considering Jesus did cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit?

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

49:43 listening John Piper .. I am starting to doubt of Piper’s statement. Is he leading to experiencing of … I can’t say it right . Dangerous!! His “ I “ statement is makes me doubt ! Strange.

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

1:05.42 I found what is bothering John Piper’s comments: he is keep saying ‘ feel’ ‘ humanity’ That is my Satan’s big lies - humanity and feelings . It comes and makes ‘ I ‘ statement. Why I like Dug Wilson ‘s comment is ‘ what God’s view ‘ that I am hearing . 2% different is ok ? No ! Almost true is not the truth !

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

1:32 what a great question, Is that a picture God loves me who I am ? No , He is righteous God , he only sees me through Christ Jesus, otherwise I will be thrown to the lake of fire . Praise the Lord Jesus!!

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

1:39. But God is love . He is merciful God . We have common grace to the world . Godly love and worldly love needed to be stressed. Godly love is not wealthy and healthy on the earth . That is not blessing from God , it could be cursed . Malachi 1:3 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

It was great to see and thank you very much !!

[@mk71b]

1:39:25 With that you're really saying that you're still a sinner and not willing to receive salvation by grace through faith and still trying to become a new creation by works and self abasement. This is the real sin. Thinking you can fix yourself. It is not about what we (have) to do. It is about God's work, what He has done. "No man can come to me, except _the Father_ which hath sent me _draw_ him: and _I will raise_ him up at the last day.". "What shall _we_ do, that _we_ might _work_ the works _of God_ ?". In John 6:28, Jesus i.m.u. flips it around responding: "This is _the work_ *of God* , that _ye believe_ on him whom he hath sent." God is the one _drawing_ and _doing_ the work. Our part is believing on Jesus and _His_ finished _work_ in us, that _He_ has made us a *new creation* with a new nature and *removed* the evil heart and evil conscience. That is repentence from the one sin, which is giving birth to all other sins: self-effort and self-sufficiency, self-righteousness. God is not faking loving you, till you're making it to deserve it.

[@christophertaylor9100]

John Piper has great strengths but his understanding of the world and life outside can be very naive

[@keith3362]

I don’t understand the ‘why does God exist’ question by Piper, God is eternal, He is God, the question is why do we exist. And really, for unsaved people, the question is if there is a God then is something wrong with Him (which is impossible) or something wrong with me. The conclusion is something wrong with me, and the answer is Jesus.

[@kkwok9]

Scripture. They dont emphasize it much. Sad

[@george7785]

This is Joe Rigney trying to figure out if he should move to Moscow some 4yrs ago 😂

[@jontyubbink1598]

We are not in the church anymore boys. We are the churches. God says in Revelation chapter, implies the church (groups) has been "removed" or "shut" to open the age of the churches (individuals). Revelation confirms this in 1: 20; "the seven lampstands are the seven churches" and keys this in to 11: 6; "the two witnesses, are the two lampstands". This means lampstands are individuals, not congregations/groups etc. This shows Revelation is not about the church anymore (collective) but churches (non-collective) now.

[@Mel-rj3tj]

So does bride mean one actual woman bride or is it the church? The two lamp stands I think are Moses and Elijah? They were with Jesus on the hill.

[@ReformedSooner24]

Basically everything except the very end of Revelation happened already. Most of Revelation is about Nero and about Jerusalem circa 70 A.D.

[@KarlsKronicles]

You're Calvinists. How can you say "for the world?" Continuing to listen, I am so confused to be hearing what I am hearing coming from Calvinists. You are not being consistent to Reformed Theology.

[@princekermit0]

Jesus gives the order to preach the gospel to every creature. We can care about the lost. Every Christian started as a lost person. For the world, because the elect don't come with a sticker on their forehead that says elect. The elect are the whosoever.

[@KarlsKronicles]

@@princekermit0 As an Arminian, I say a similar thing. If you're a Calvinist saying this, you just built a bridge.

[@princekermit0]

@@KarlsKronicles You know, I never have settled down, and fought for either position, nor have I exhaustively searched the scriptures to establish my mind about it. Frankly, the whole argument, leads brothers to war with each other, and become graceless, and loveless. That alone makes me weep. We have core doctrines, as stipulated in the Nicene, and Apostle's creeds in common, as well as our trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) This hatred between the extremes, in either Camp, is not of the Father Above, but from the "accuser of the brethren" I am very inclined to accept the Sovereignty of God, and the culpability of fallen humanity. I have watched too many athiests, who became converted, against what at the time, seemed to be their individual will. SO, I lean very hard in the direction of the doctrines of Grace. I really don't like how loaded the term "Calvinist", because a very careful reading of John Calvin reveals a mind, and a man, who would reject a lot of what is Called Calvinism today. My big problem, is that a lot of reformed churches are Cessationists, with no biblical support for that position. They have become Sadducees, who limit or deny the work of the Holy Spirit. And as a consequence: they have a slugish, and powerless testimony, and often they do not spread the Gospel, or work on the great commission. And on the other hand, in the Arminian camp, a very large tendency to either become antinominalist (hypergrace), or hyper-nomial... (legalists) performance based Christianity. I think the body of Christ needs the Power of the Holy Spirit in order to rest, and abide in Christ (that they will enjoy the tranquility in the finished work of Jesus); as well as, to walk out a very real faith-practice, that, bears the fruit of authentic love (towards neighbor, brother, or enemy) as well as manifesting any fruit that magnifies Jesus Christ, and edifies the followers of Jesus. When we devolve into quarreling and backbiting, and character assassination, we hand satan and his devils a "W" because we are destroying our witness to the lost, and giving the Gospel a black eye, with our unseemly conduct. There was a time when the lost, and heathen of the world, remarked about the Christ Followers "Those people really love each other". I would, that the people of Christ in America, repent of this feuding, and actually support each other, in building each other up. Not in the false ecumenical spirit, that is trying to drag everyone back under the Pope, and away from a simple Gospel of the Kingdom, and a Righteous & Sinless King, who was slain for the "WHOSOEVER" definitively, and effectively. That this actually satisfied the Justice of the Father, and the Father, shows His acceptance of the final sacrifice, by raising the Son on the Third Day. The Son ascended into Throne-room, and became seated at the right hand of the Father. And this same Son, is going to return. He will judge the living and the dead, the righteous, and the unrighteous. The lost will be sent to the lake of fire, where they will remain in conscious torment [Forever, and Ever, Amen] And His people will receive goodness, for the good/authorized works (these works, added nothing to their salvation, but were works of obedience to the One whom they loved. And if we want to enter that good Kingdom, we need to know Him, and be known by Him.

[@KarlsKronicles]

@@princekermit0 Enjoyed your words and resonate with what you said.

[@aztec0112]

Hooboy, it took Piper all of four minutes to whip it out and start hosing the deck with testosterone! Wow!

[@mikepagliassotti]

What is all the hoopla with CS Lewis? The man was as close to a Roman Catholic as you can get, without being one. Do yourself a favor and study what he taught. Most people don't have a clue of what he believed. When you do your homework on CS Lewis, I wonder if you will still have such an elevated view of him! Many don't consider him a Christian.

[@the32712]

There are a subset of Catholics that are likely saved. You don't have to be a Baptist or Presbyterian to be saved, you just have to be Christian.

[@keithwolfe1942]

Will Piper ever repent of the false narrative of calvinism?

[@mikepagliassotti]

Doug, it was so sad to hear the mediator say CS Lewis had that big of an influence on your life, more than any other man of God.I guess that goes along with your view that there many saved people in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't mean those that get saved out of the Roman Catholic. I mean those that stay in the Roman Catholic church. Will be praying for you🛐

[@Mel-rj3tj]

Jesus hated tradition and legalism! How can anyone be in a Catholic Church? They don’t allow divorced women to take communion.

[@PilgrimNinja]

Something seems off about Piper. Kind of a darkness. Hard to explain.

[@seon-gyoungadams2257]

Yes. I would say that the fake meets the genuine , the smart false realizes…how different!

[@thats_xrazy]

I believe this is what it looks like to be on defense. Rightly so with Mr. Doug here. He seems rattled

[@isaiahfronning5157]

I get the impression that Piper thinks he's the mental and spiritual superior to Douglas Wilson. It's a turn-off. Piper has made great, positive impacts in my life, but between seeing the carnality of his son Abraham and his (seemingly, to me) arrogance, I'm hesitant to adhere to his teachings.

[@isaiahfronning5157]

Post-watching, Piper is just intimidated by Douglas Wilson's intelligence.

[@Mel-rj3tj]

Jesus said God’s kingdom will be full of little children. Having too much poise and elegance and worldly knowledge isn’t a little childlike at all. Piper is biblical. That’s faithfulness to the Word, confidence in the Word can seem like pride but it’s boasting in Christ, like Paul said. It’s not about how we feel. It’s about God. 🎉 and pigs are unclean; bacon is not good for the heart health. God’s wisdom is wise. ❤

[@Mel-rj3tj]

John Piper is the most biblical teacher in our day. Doug Wilson is wrong. I lost everything and gained Christ just like John Piper said. Even though I’ve never had a happy family life and the perfect “Christian” life, I believe God most certainly sent me the Holy Spirit to teach me ALL things spiritual that I needed to learn through true and Godly repentance. Without Godly repentance, there is only human grief. So yeh if someone has not fully experienced God and believed Jesus Words, then they would recreate the same problems on their mission field. Jesus has made us a a nation a priesthood. Women can be used by Christ too in spreading the gospel. After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to Mary, a woman, first. Whenever he wanted news to spread, He always told a woman. He knew women’s heart were easily softened ❤ and believed.

[@Rabbitburnx]

Armenian and Calvanism are both in error. It's amazing to me how people get so smart they forget God. Piper is a wicked man who will bring many to Hell with him. Piper is still sinning every day and doesn't repent. Everything he says is coming from a darkened mind.

[@thefeastpresents4774]

Satire is not about telling people to go to hell there you pin head John Piper - how dare you

[@pulentoso7420]

Piper is woke

[@marcelniles342]

What is woke?

[@besseljm1]

He is taking the secular social justice and intersectional worldview and merging it with his Christian faith. Time to drop John as a Christian voice.

[@marcelniles342]

@@besseljm1 social justice, intersectionality? Please explain?

[@janepatton8100]

@@besseljm1 Being that mercy and grace are the attributes at the center of the Gospel, not political or social perspectives... Why again are we dropping him as a *"CHRISTIAN"* voice... 🤔? What about the billions of professing Christians around the world that share his social and political perspectives, should we *"drop"* them too? And being that most christians who share your view on those issues are in the minority, *(Christianity is much larger than white America),* do you think that Christianity should *"drop"* white evangelicalism... 🤔?

[@Dbulkss]

@@janepatton8100 what billions say that? You made that up. Where in the Bible does it bring up skin tone? Why are you adding to the gospel with SKIN TONES????? This is NOT what the Bible says at all. WOKE means ADDING TO or TWISTING of things to the MODERN DAY secular confusions.

[@TheCannonofMohammed]

Doug Wilson, quite frankly, hanging with people like Piper-the-Pusillanimous will only serve to sully your reputation.

[@JonathanGrandt]

“We LOVE definitions...” -Piper Yeah you got that right. Calvinists use all the same words but with their own definitions. *wink* I pray that it is in Gods divine will that you all be freed from the pit of Calvinism.

[@DanielTanios]

"I pray that it is in God's divine will that you all be freed from the pit of Calvinism." Does someone want to tell him? 😂

[@waitaminutewhat]

Same but opposite for you

[@jacobmaier8993]

Wow...sorry prayer friend .

[@jamesb6818]

Jonathan Grandt man sorry to hear a prayer like that, I’m not even a Calvinist but sure love and learn so much from my brothers in Christ that hold to a Calvinistic view. I don’t think that either side should be dogmatic on our conviction, we both agree that the Holy Spirit takes the initiative and in every case of regeneration the glory goes to God. Peace bother

[@bmide1110]

Hey friend, I pray you are well. The church is filled with godly arminians and godly clavinists who treasure Christ and live in his abundant joy. I think we tear each other down when we call each other’s position a “pit.”

[@marysheilds9966]

IMAGE Not substance. The Trinity is Pagan through and through and is the reason why your ministry is stillborn

[@AnHebrewChild]

"Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but *the Spirit of your Father* which speaketh in you." As I read His word, it seems abundantly clear to me that the very _being_ of יהוה won't be wrapped up in (or rightly comprehended by) any nice, neat, tidy credal formulation: no matter how "logical" man's reasoning may seem. (Hence the Matt 10 verse above; one which I almost never hear even acknowledged on this subject.) This is why I shy away from using non-biblical terms, even in the face of the last two verses of Matthew: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of *the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:* Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world...." Given your comment, what are your thoughts on Mat. 28:19-20? (Genuinely curious).

[@saved6655]

Trinity Old Testament The very first chapter in the Old Testament We already see scripture indicating a plurality of persons in God himself and throughout the Bible God uses terms like us or our to explain himself. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; We have a “let us” and a “in our” and “to our, there is some that say God is talking to angels but that makes no sense because we are not made in there likeness and angels did not have a part in creation. Another us statement from God is in, Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; Once again a “us” statement and in Genesis 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." God says let us go down and confuse their language and we know God is talking to himself because in verse 9 he says Genesis 11:9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; so he says because there the lord confused there language. So there is no one else confusing the language here besides God. So the us is obviously God. And another us statement in the Old Testament is in Isaiah Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" This is amazing because we see a plural of “who will go for us” but we also see the oneness because he starts off by saying “whom shall I send”. Then we see these passages where one person is “God” or “ the Lord” and is distinguished from another person who is also said to be God, like in, Psalm 45:6-7 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows. We see the conversation between two persons in one name both brought to one by calling each other God. And we see this matchup of this exact text in the exact words in the New Testament in Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Another text in the Old Testament of one person of God talking to another person of God Psalm 110:1 The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." We see in Mathew here Jesus referring to David saying this exact text from psalms Mathew 22:41-45 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet"'? Obviously David knew of the plurality of God yet in texts he refers to God himself knowing in his essence he is more than one person. This is the great thing about the New Testament, it coincides with the Old Testament. No other religion that wrote another book dose this. The Muslim Bible doesn’t, the Mormon Bible doesn’t, and ext... The Jewish interpreters of now a days cannot explain these plural passages they just deny them and we see that this was said by Isaiah 63:10 and in this passage he also shows the person of the Holy Spirit Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. So Isaiah knew the plurality of God as well, distinguishing the Holy Spirit from God yet says his Holy Spirit. So showing oneness with him as well. They grieved him then and grieve him now. And then saying the word grieve shows the Holy Spirit with personality. He has emotional capability’s. Another passage of Isaiah distinguishing the Holy Spirit is in Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; He distinguishes, “the spirit of the Lord God” from “the Lord”. We see this similarity in Malichi Malichi 3:1-2 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? He says and the “Lord” whom you seek, and then says, “says the Lord of hosts” so the one speaking, the “Lord of hosts” talks of the “Lord who you seek”. He also shows a distinguishing by saying, “who can endure the day of “His” coming and who can stand when “He” appears. The Lord here is talking of another person of himself. Suggesting two separate persons that both can be called, “Lord”. This same type wording in Hosea 1:7 But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God Once again suggesting that more than one person can be called “Lord”. The Hebrew is for Lord is “Yahweh” and for God is “Elohim” which they use in this passage. And in Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit." This has trinitarian implications, talking of the Lord God, the Me, and the Spirit. This shows Jesus saying come near to Me, and that same Me saying the Lord God has sent Me and his Spirit. Then in the Old Testament we see this angel of the Lord in (genesis 16:13, exodus 3:2-6, 23:20-22, numbers 22:35 22:38, judges 2:1-2 6:11 6:14) and in exodus 23:21 God says my name is in him, a strong indication that this angel of the Lord is deity of God. Now there is other passages through the Bible that refers to a angel of the Lord but not in this context. The word angel in Hebrew is malak which means messenger, if this angel of the Lord is a messenger of the Lord, he is distinct from the Lord. Yet some points in the Bible this angel of the Lord is called God. Trinity in the New Testament Matthew 3:16-17 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Here we have all three members doing distinct acts in unity. We see The heavens open up and God the father saying “this is my son whom I am well pleased”. The Holy Spirit descending on Jesus like a dove, and Jesus getting baptized and being empowered for his ministry by the Holy Spirit. This shows them all doing something at one time. This disproves modalism. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Here we have a strong connection just by the words father and son. In our mind as humans this is a bonded relationship. The names father and son drawn from a family perspective, and being very familiar to us as human connection, indicates the distinct personhood of both. And the Holy Spirit being put on the same level only makes sense that the Holy Spirit is also a person in equality with the father and the son. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. We see the writers of the New Testament use the word God in Greek (theos) towards God the father and Lord in Greek (kyrios) towards God the son we see these trinitarian expressions constantly used. It says the same Holy Spirit, the same God, and the same Lord and gives a closing statement of all persons. We see this same exact thing in 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. But this time it says the Lord Jesus Christ showing us who the Lord is. 1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. And Peter in his epistle opens up with a trinitarian expression showing us how important the trinity doctrine is to the Christian faith. It shows the three harmonizing in salvation from being foreknown so the absolute work of God and the perseverance of salvation from the Holy Spirit and the means of Jesus blood to salvation. The gospel in a paragraph. Jude 1:20-21 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. Here Jude is talking to believers and showing us who we worship, who our God is and the finishing work of Christ to eternal life. All three working together in the walk of a Christian. . This is our God, our one and only God in three persons, each person is fully God,and there is only one in essence.

[@marysheilds9966]

@@saved6655 What about all the DIRECT statements of Yahweh that where He says he is one and there is no other. Your arguments stand for Elohim but Elohim can be a multitude of Angels. Ad-Hominid Straw-man crap. Sorry.

[@saved6655]

@@marysheilds9966 ad hominem straw man? It’s so evident all over scripture but you suppress the truth. You make assumptions but I see nothing substantial. We live and die on the word of God. If you say it is straw man then you should be able to pick it apart with scripture.