Race and Culture / John Piper and Doug Wilson

[@CanonPress]

Get Doug Wilson's "Black and Tan: Essays and Excursions on Slavery, Culture War, and Scripture in America" today: canonpress.com/products/black-tan/

[@CJWheat7]

Is this the book that Doug said in this interview that he would be happy if it wasn't ever read again?

[@zarcone1980]

Me too!!

[@SilasAndTimothy]

@@CJWheat7 Yes.

[@biblicalbee2082]

I absolutely love Doug Wilson. He's helped me realize that I need to be brave. I know that I cannot sit idly by while my country (Kenya) falls... I will pray, I will speak truth with Love. A genuine love that does not rejoice in evil

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Kenya is falling??

[@prayunceasingly2029]

I have had the same experience with his talks in canada, Annbell

[@Godsglory777]

And the same here in America, where according to the feminist men are toxic and need to be less like men, but God created us to be men! Not loud, insensitive jerks, but brave, responsible men who don't back down from a challenge to God's Truth! We stand, we fight, all in the spirit of humility and love but with courage.

[@lucineaferreira5275]

Ela vai escravizar vc.

[@sincyv]

I've been hearing Doug for some time and he had a reputation for being hardnosed. But lately I've found him to be the most honest, most godly and his niceness in many things is not manufactured to please anyone but from the Gospel alone. basically, it is an outcome of his character.

[@Descriptor_]

If Piper was faced with a situation where the life of a child can be saved if he acts immediately, versus alleviate some form of struggle or suffering momentarily for another person how could any person in their right mind come to a place to respect the decision to abandon the child? There is no policy to be passed that brings about a greater amount of good than saving someone’s life. It is cowardice to throw up your hands saying that you don’t get it but it’s ok for someone else. It is wrong.

[@shilohsanders5475]

I wonder why there’s never any rebuking of the other side of the racial reconciliation discussion in these conversations. Exhort brothers to love and good deeds. It’s a kid gloves approach that says volumes about the milieu of the conversation in the nation right now.

[@GodsServant543]

I love Doug… My guy! I’m a mid 30’s black man and he’s spot on with much of this race thing. There’s no justification for arguing money, welfare or loans, are equal to the atrocity of abortion. Too many Black people are often to emotional, to tribal, and too uneducated to make legitimate arguments against this. In 2021 people using the same arguments about slavery that’s old and gone, compared to present day atrocity that’s actively happening.

[@nateaggie]

Well black people have been used as a political football ever since the War between the States. And policies have been enacted which have done terrible damage to the black family. Broken families lead to crime and poverty no matter the race. Thomas Sowell is really the key figure to challenge anyone who thinks that the unfortunate modern state of much of the black community is a legacy of slavery. It's much more true to say it is a legacy LBJs war on poverty and targeted campaigns to usher blacks into the Democratic Party, not that Repubs are much better. The true lover of Christ, and of liberty, and of one's neighbor, regardless of race, is today without a political party.

[@nattamused9074]

Wow. I haven’t really been open to hear from Piper until now. The tidbits I’ve picked up from him have always seemed sorta subjective. But he is evidently a much more substantial thinker than I knew. It was so encouraging to see these two God fearing Ministers with all their differences, show us how wonderful Christian conversation can be.

[@ctvtmo]

From the perspective of 2021, we now know Wilson was right.

[@JP_21M]

I had the same thought 4 times throughout this discussion. And it looks like he will be shown to be exceedingly correct in the years to come.

[@marchyman5061]

I tremendously appreciate both of these men and their commitment to the gospel. When I heard John Piper talking about the emotional connection and reaction to the topic of slavery as compared to abortion and the holocaust, for example, My gut reaction to that is, yes, the holocaust, slavery, abortion are all horrendous sins. The difference is, the holocaust and slavery are no longer taking place, but abortion is a here and now problem, with no end in sight. Hence the difference in the emotional reaction.

[@joelanturk6280]

Statistically, there are more slaves today than their were during the Atlantic Slave Trade. Let's have a wee peek at the US border, Libya, Nigeria, etc... Doug Wilson is correct about the fake Black "Christian's" who do absolutely nothing but decry racism every decade since the 1960's. I have not and will not uphold this utterly WEAK & GODLESS position as an actual Christian woman who happens to be black. Don't stand for such foolishness. I implore you. God created us; red and yellow, black and white, we are precious in HIS sight. That's all there is to it, eh?

[@joashtunison351]

Ditto, my reaction also

[@nathanschreffler1415]

Exactly!

[@biblicalbee2082]

Doug is killing it in this talk... He's willing to speak truth even when it's hard to hear

[@noelgibson4274]

Man! Doug Wilson is waaay ahead of his time with the things he was saying in 2013! I will always love John Piper as a Bible teacher, but his take on cultural and social issues (along with my former pastor's), have not been helpful in the past 10 years. Jesus is King now and all must bow the knee to Him.

[@leadinged]

I sense the seeds of social justice in John Pipers answers at the beginning.

[@acornsucks2111]

He's the same as most, just buckle to keep the peace and the situation just gets worse in the long run.

[@sethgoodale67]

Joe Rigney with Hair!

[@joshrj7]

Pastor Douglas gets it, completely. In fact, I feel like he was holding back, and rightly so, even within the church, many have been convinced by a feel-good, judgment-free, inclusive theology. This, in the long run, serves no one, but especially, it serves not Christ, the ultimate measure of all things within the Church. God continue blessing both Piper's and Douglas' ministries. We need more honest, fact-based, theologically strong conversations like these.

[@yeoberry]

The author of "Southern Slavery As It Was" (Wilson) doesn't "get it."

[@outboardprsnlstndup]

@@yeoberry Well, neither do people like Thabiti, who apparently has taken up a side hobby of race-hustling and dividing the church. So, he certainly "doesn't get it" either.

[@outboardprsnlstndup]

@@yeoberry I think, aside from the book that I haven't read, he "gets it" much more than many leaders today

[@felixguerrero6062]

@@yeoberry That book condemns slavery and racism, and makes the biblical argument that starting a civil war over slavery is the wrong way of getting rid of the institution which of course is correct.

[@keithwilson6060]

No one gets it “completely” in this mortal life. “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬ This even applies to people like Doug, who hold unworthy beliefs such as preteristic accomplishments, spiritualized fulfillment’s of prophesy which do not measure up to scripture, and a complete discarding of a People whom God unconditionally promised to NEVER abandon.

[@mrhandsrevenge]

The more I hear Doug Wilson, the more I like him.

[@biblicalbee2082]

Right ?!!!

[@christopherlawson4592]

Same here

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Likewise. He's a wise guy, and not in the Italian mafia way

[@CaitHoover]

Saaaame.

[@RobertHickok]

The more you like, the more you get invited to danger. Federal Vision works righteousness. No gospel.

[@streetsmartswing]

This discussion is special. Thank you both for responding to this conflict with humility and patience.

[@thembamaselane5885]

My God pastor Wilson just destroyed my comfortable ignorance and refuel my passionate confidence in the gospel.

[@howardhilliard9286]

Wilson is so far ahead of almost everyone on the culture degradation and what to do about it. Exhibit A at the 1hour and 17" mark he talks about the materialist view that everything can come out of hydrogen. That essentially boils down the book that came a number of years later to great acclaim: The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution, which many people think is one of the most important books written for Christians to understand the redefining of reality through expressive individualism that has exploded in the last few years but has been a long time in coming.

[@mcdonaldchristian8273]

I would love to meet Doug Wilson someday! I really am grateful for his thoughtfulness on issues

[@CanonPress]

We like em pretty good, too.

[@BrokTheLoneWolf]

Same. He’s one of the celebrities I’d be geeked to meet.

[@ministryoftruth1451]

@@BrokTheLoneWolf He and Vodie Baucham are two men that I would love to have an extended dinner with.

[@Celticbavarian]

I watched this the first time a couple years ago and again today, and it's even better the 2nd time. It might even warrant a 3rd time. So much wisdom.

[@YayGrr1]

Another critique of Piper's emotionalism over knowledge and reason: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 That's Jehovah God speaking directly btw.

[@raypaget815]

I admire both men. Read just about every book these men write. However, over the past five years or so, Piper has gotten “squishy” on many issues. Wilson, particularly in today’s climate, is only one of the few Christian leaders who is sounding the trumpet , calling the church to stand boldly for the Gospel. He is a man from Issachar (1 Chor. 12:32).

[@troysgt]

I have become very disappointed with Piper. An example of his “squishy” attitude is on full display about ½ way through responding to Doug’s comment about voting for a pro-abortion candidate. Doug calls people to think, and Piper says, careful, they will get angry that you are calling them to think biblically. So disappointing Piper. But now I see, His slide left (as revealed leading up to 2020 elections) began Long ago. Piper following emotions lead him astray, we all need to remember “Jeremiah 17:9 [9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”

[@tripp8833]

@@troysgt Where in the Bible does it say abortion should be illegal?

[@andrewtaylor1737]

@@tripp8833 define illegal

[@s.a3099]

@@tripp8833 murder is a crime punishable by death. Abortion is murder.

[@tripp8833]

@@s.a3099 “Abortion is Murder” Is that in the Bible or are you just saying your personal beliefs are more important?

[@Me-ic3li]

I love the humility that comes from being a new believer, ‘What should I be doing?’. We need to retain the humility, and continue asking the question of the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ throughout our lives here.

[@irrelevantideology9640]

That mediator did an AMAZING job.

[@orgullosamentemexicana952]

LOVE THIS DISCUSSION! It's not dismissive nor simplistic! I RESPECT AND LOVE MY BROTHERS DEARLY! WISH ALL evangelicals would handle this topic this way! 🙏

[@anonymoussource701]

John Piper is a nutter

[@thirstypilgrim97]

Concerns regarding college loans, incarcerations, affirmative action, etc. do NOT excuse nor absolve ambivalence towards abortion. If a brother tries to make a "necessary evil " argument out of it, sorry, that's just not good enough.

[@biblicalbee2082]

Very true brother...

[@zapazap]

Ambivalence in *what* toward abortion? Feelings? Words? Displays of emotion? What is *required?* And for *what end?* I am not speaking of making 'necessary evil' arguments about it. I am addressing your first sentence, not your second.

[@wesparsons5331]

Yeah, I agree. Voting for a pro abortion candidate is sin. It should be obvious if you position is that every baby aborted is a baby.

[@marcelwillieniles3816]

Love both of these men...especially John Piper because I study a lot with him... Great wisdom from both of them...GOD bless them! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@christophertaylor9100]

I appreciate John Piper's nature and desire for gentle, peaceful, and loving Christianity, but I also know that the Bible and experience teachers that there is a time and place for all things.

[@shilohsanders5475]

58:40 and they are wrong for that. They are letting their own prejudices cloud their judgment and cause hatred for someone who is giving them the truth.

[@rolandorolandorolando6554]

Born in 1971 it’s now 2021 I have never met a slave who is a slave of another man..but the man who is a slave in 2021 is a slave to his own sins.

[@sweetyem7968]

Maybe you should expand your social circle and engage in your world, as of 2016 there were 400,000 slaves in the US and many women and children are being used for the sex slave industry. Children are bought for organ harvesting internationally, is that because they are slaves to their own sin? Evil is real and present in the physical realm not just in the spiritual.

[@VicCrisson]

Commenting for algorithm

[@briansnow8980]

I love John Piper and he has a lot of wisdom in all of this. However, I disagree that one has to have the same emotions, concerning an issue someone else has, as they do for something else (abortion vs slavery). I agree that I hate slavery and how people were treated for being black. Yet, slavery in America has ended in a bloody war that cost millions of lives. Abortion is STILL HAPPENING and needs to end. One is closer and still on going and being overlooked far beyond how slavery was overlooked and wrongly justified by people.

[@LRibeiro97]

I would like to know if someone can link videos of Doug explaining this concept of "apostles from the world" and "refugees of the world"?

[@MrStropparo]

Like in the case of Saul, God gives people the leaders they deserve.

[@jackuber7358]

What is also dissapointing was Pactor Piper's incessant appeals to emotionalism. Yes, there must be passinon to our faith. Nevertheless, we are called by Scripture--God breathed--to "reason" together, not to "emote" together. Our emotions MUST be subordinate to God's Word. Among many other things, our subordination to God's Word, and thus to God, is a hallmark of true Christianity.

[@samuelrosenbalm]

40:00 In other words, "Uh oh. Seeing as how I just admitted that I participated in racism, I had better make it clear that I never supported anything too bad." John Piper disappoints me. I don't know him, but I do love him. His ministry is a tremendous blessing. But he is so disappointing.

[@doomerquiet1909]

John Piper is a very passionate man, sometimes i feel like he's just saying the same thing over and over

[@coreyryan9703]

I do that at times too when I’m passionate for me it’s because I hate to be misunderstood so I say things in different ways so that there’s less disconnect.

[@keithwilson6060]

I don’t find him ever saying anything not cliche or novel in a new perspective on anything. I’m not referring to reordering the things of God, but in the presenting of them.

[@biblicalbee2082]

I think I understand what you mean... Personally I think I'm a little more like Doug Wilson and that's why I understand his humour and personality... I understand his heart

[@tycer9754]

Love both these Men greatly! However at 37:00 when he mentioned the Black community not thinking we are as responsive to slavery as to abortion; I have not met a single Christian who thinks slavery was anything but sinful, terrible and an abomination to our county and the Christians who supported it, but slavery in the US ended… period.. full stop… abortion didn’t. Abortion has only grown worse, while racial equality has only gotten better.

[@Uzi-Esp]

Interesting comment

[@toomuchinformation]

Slavery ended........ it's now been incorporated into the Prison Industrial Complex.

[@MrStropparo]

If a couple dozen men didn’t sit down and discuss liberty in 1775 , we couldn’t have this conversation. We should focus on that which concerns us. Joseph put back food for 7 years. If he sat back and let God be sovereign perhaps millions of people would’ve starved and Israel would’ve been in much worse shape.

[@kirkevans2196]

God bless you all, very much, and thank you,, much needed here in Arkansas.

[@thespiritofhegel3487]

A good job biology has given us the theory of evolution that denies that race exists and yes I know Darwin used the word 'race' but he meant species. Species exist. Homo sapiens is a species that evolved in Africa.

[@NPC985]

So Piper has guilt for being a coward, therefore Christians today shouldn't say offensive truths. Got it.

[@90-17woodworking]

With the current problems in the church today with social justice, intersectionality, etc. I wonder if Pastor Doug still hopes no one else reads his book...

[@briang3598]

I think that was something of a joke.

[@wesparsons5331]

I love Piper, but Wilson nailed it on the issues. I think Pipers heart is in the right place but he is just wrong 😞

[@rosseller2045]

To Piper's comments about the emotional component around abortion compared to slavery.. I mean abortion is currently a massive issues and slavery no longer is.. it's not the same. I can strongly abhor the Holocaust but at the end of the day I'm going to have more emotion about a mistreatment of my child at school even though that's objectively a smaller problem. Does that mean I don't hate the Holocaust? Silly.

[@primitivaroots]

This sounded pretty much like a trial on Pastor Doug. He was scrutinized and judged not only on what he did say, but on his general way of saying things. As somebody who is always learning with his material, reading his books and watching his videos, and was very very blessed by his ministry, I felt pretty much uncomfortable with the way he was treated here. Being judged by his own brothers in Christ is very different than being judged by a mob of unbelievers.

[@LRibeiro97]

At about 50 minutes, it becomes pretty clear how Piper is really blind to these social political issues, and how Doug is much more lucid and clear minded on these issues. I hope God opens Piper's eyes before eternity on these things, and that he can leave his legacy untainted by the "top of the wall", giving the hand to leftist, critical race theory, marxist lies, etc.

[@acornsucks2111]

He's just trying to keep the peace at all costs.

[@LRibeiro97]

@@calebwalker4823 I wouldn't be so blunt, but yeah, something like that.

[@LRibeiro97]

The same passion is not there, because no one is suffering from slavey right now in America, iunlike abortion, which is being put forth right now. How on Earth can someone believe the difference in tone and passion is a racial thing?

[@joshuamichael2463]

How on board is Piper with all the woke stuff we’re seeing in the church today, is he similar to Greece, platt, Russell Moore, gospel coalition?

[@winonahart]

👀

[@staci8222]

ALL THINGS CONSIDERED is how people vote

[@smashleyscott8272]

Is it a sin for ANYONE, let alone a Christian l, to vote for a politician who openly supports and advocates for legal abortion...?? That's an absolute self evident YES.

[@TheCannonofMohammed]

John Piper, this was your prayer for Donald Trump on Jan 20, 2017: "Until that day Lord, in your wonderful providence, “The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will” (Proverbs 21:1). So, guard him from folly. Guard him from stupid decisions that would damage people, damage America, damage the church. Guard him. Superintend him and the congress in such a way that, beyond their explanation, things turn in a direction that makes for the kind of good that, even though it may not have faith in it, would have the form of faith in justice and love." Thank you, John, for praying this for Donald Trump. The Lord Jesus answered your prayer, and brought us 4 years of brilliant leadership (not perfect, mind you) that the church is still reaping the benefits of (does Jun 25th ring a bell?). Tell me, John: have you ever thanked God for answering your prayer?

[@christophertaylor9100]

Sadly, I doubt it, he really seems to dislike and oppose Trump based on very little other than "ick"

[@matthewdyer2926]

This is hard to watch. Piper will answer to God for his partiality, and for the way he treated Doug here.

[@TheCannonofMohammed]

I’m still waiting for John Piper’s apology for his backhanded support for Joe Biden. Hey Piper, if Doug is big enough to apologize, why can’t you?

[@michaelmannucci8585]

I resent Piper's implication that those worried about the state of America are *actually* worried that it's "less white". That's extremely disingenuous and reeks of woke propaganda.

[@lindsay.coggin]

I thought that too. It’s the left talking points about white America that still aren’t true, even today. So disappointing.

[@tayzk5929]

It's been made impossible to speak on race with the truth needed, and so the wicked consequences will follow and people will suffer needlessly for it.

[@philipmurray9796]

Sadly Piper's tendency towards extreme empathy has led him down the woke path.

[@christophertaylor9100]

Yeah he's not all the way but he's heavily leaning.

[@zapazap]

1:00:40 If someone makes an argument, there does not need to be a _reason_ for me to trust them, other than presumption of good will, my ability to think about what they say and judge it on it's merits, and the prospects of my learning something.

[@SmithFamilyFarmstead]

John piper getting offended for people who aren't present...

[@daNXT81]

Isn't that telling? Here's a discussion about Race & Culture, that does not include any other race & culture. Interesting how that didn't jump out at you, but rather, Piper being "offended" (not empathetic) for those not there.

[@smashleyscott8272]

Do you know why white folks don't talk about the horrors of the chattel slavery practiced and experienced during the 1st decades of our nation's history with the same passion as the horrors of abortion...?? Because those horrors of chattel slavery haven't existed in this country in the lifetime's of a single living American, and not a single living American has that lived exoerience... not a single black American and not a single white American. Chattel slavery as a practiced legal institution was ended in this nation approximately 150 years ago. It's OVER. We can't say the same for the child sacrifice that we see TODAY in this nation. About how many black people were lost in the Transatlantic slave trade over the course of a couple of centuries....?? About 10 million...?? We have exceeded that, by orders of magnitude, with legal abortions in just FIVE decades, and more than ONE THIRD of aborted people are BLACK. Sorry, Pastor Piper, but that indignation & judgement within that particular complaint from black Americans who make it is misguided, misplaced, self righteous, and self absorbed.... not to mention delusionally self serving. Why do THEY not speak out about the slaughter of the black babies being slaughtered TODAY in the same fervor that they continue to speak out about am evil Institution that ended by the bloodshed of white folks 150ish years ago...?? Why am I expected to feel guilt for some of the sins of long dead white folks, but would not be allowed to receive praise for the sacrificed lives of the white folks that ended slavery with their own blood...?? And why do these same black Amerucabs not feel the same disdain for the black Africans and Arabs who's ancestors sold black people INTO slavery a couple hundred years ago...?? Chattel slavery didn't start in America. Hundreds of thousands of white folks died, and KILLED other white folks, in a vicious war that set black folks free from chattel slavery in this country, while black folks over seas on other continents PROFITTED from chattel slavery even AFTER our ancestors ended it here. White Americans TODAY understand this truth... and because of that truth, and because white Americans are tired of being called racists just for existing in their European descended bodies, and for the support free markets & self determinent principles, while rejecting the popular Critical Marxist Fascism of our day. White Americans are straight up TIRED of race being THE topic of the day, DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DECADE, especially when leftist and liberal policies make things WORSE for black Americans in the first place. At some point, people need to take account for THEIR lives in the NOW... speaking for myself, as a white American Christian, I feel ZERO obligations to hold any responsibility or fault for sins committed by people hundreds of years ago, against NO ONE alive today, just because those sinners kinda looked like me. ZERO apologies offered from this white man for the sins of long dead white AND black men. No... NO. Ampathey isn't Biblical anyway.

[@leadinged]

Well said. Right off John plays the race card. If he wants to drag up history then he should mention the 1.2m European whites enslaved by the Barbary pirates. Notice the slam about Thomas Sowell. Brilliant black guy. The woke cult hate him.

[@PrentissYeates]

I think Pastor John wants it both ways, he wants christian to engage the culture , agree when possible but has cautioned Christians on defending themselves during a mass shooting or protecting those whom you are responsible for? Which part of brothers keeper are we, partly or totally.

[@thirstypilgrim97]

@1:04:30 , moderator describes Conservatives like Romney, Bush, McCain, who didn't conserve anything( my reputation matters, I don't wanna be called racist!) and the "new right, hard right,alt-right etc" who don't care what you call them as long as the truth is out, consequences be damned.

[@briang3598]

They still pretended to be conservative-ish circa 2013.

[@shilohsanders5475]

49:30 more important than our preborn neighbors? Horrifying for a Christian to think.

[@gsmiro]

Why do we assume the current narrative that segregation (separation) is a sin and unity is moral? Segregation is not a sin and immoral. Even from the Biblical perspective, segregation or separation is often used by God for His own purposes. God actually is the author of separations and segregation. He created the different ethnicity and languages and separated each group from the others. So God is the original author of segregation, if you will. The reverse of the separation or segregation or apartness (apartheid) is only achieved in Christ. But even in the Church right now we are still segregated (separated) by our theology, doctrines and worship practices. And these separations are not necessarily evil. And we Christians shouldn't force human unity on the Church, let along forcing integration on the country. True unity will only be achieved when all sins and all corruptions are put away in the New Heaven and New Earth. So the point is that why do we believe segregation is wrong morally? or a sin? It is not and we should not treat it as such and be consumed by the enemy's narratives! Now speaking naturally, segregation is natural. It is natural for families to be separated (segregated or apart) from each other. It is natural for different cultures and ethnic groups to be separated. It is natural for different nations and countries to be separated. So let's not buying to the lies that segregation is a sin. If someone doesn't want me to be associated with them due to the color of my skin, then so be it! If someone wants to exclude me from their homes, parties and schools; it's their right. True Christian Church also are not all inclusive. Yes, a true Church will welcome everyone, but if sinners do not repent and believe in Jesus and be born again and be changed, then they have to be excluded and excommunicated. So the lie being told today is that separation is bad and inclusiveness is good. So blacks has no right to demand to be included in the white society, and whites have no right to demand to be included in black society. It is interesting to note that Pastor Wilson said "white flight" after the force integration. It's interesting to think about who is the oppressors here? Do the Egyptians flee from the Hebrew slaves on their own land? Or do the Hebrew slaves wanted to leave Egypt after being set free? A truly oppressed people would fight to overthrow their oppressors and chase them away or leave and stay away from their oppressors. So it is very interesting that a group of oppressed people would want to join and integrate and become part of the society of the oppressors! You don't see the Polish want to become and integrate with the Germans after WW2. You don't see the Jews want to join and integrate with the Germans after the Holocaust. You don't see the Chinese want to join and integrate with the Japanese after WW2. So why would the blacks want to join and integrate with their supposed oppressors and racists whites? Perhaps the whites were not really racists and the blacks were not truly oppressed during segregation? Now politically Of course the government should not force individuals to segregate, nor should the government force people to integrate. The people should have freedom of association, a basic human freedom that God has given us. Calling segregation a moral sin and to force racial or other kinds of integration and unity is denying us the God given freedom of association and freedom of choice. And the result is only human unity for the sake of unity and it will not achieve God's will. Also, true unity in Christ, doesn't mean that we all have to go to a church that is consist of a different ethnicity. Unless God calls you to do so, going to a church of majority different ethnicity doesn't prove true unity in Christ. True unity is achieved when we love another brother and sister in Christ regardless of our differences. That could look like going to a church of a different ethnicity but it doesn't have to be. The true Christian unity is a truly spiritual unity in which when we do fellowship with other Christians regardless of our cultural, ethnic, language, or even doctrinal differences, we can feel the Oneness in the Spirit and in Christ. That connection in the Spirit means so much more than what men try to achieve through forced unity or ecumenicism.

[@acornsucks2111]

shorten it up.

[@CarpentersMinistry1]

My take away... Piper: I'll appeal to you by being sweet nice and hopefully one day share the gospel with you. Doug: your a sinner in offence to God you need to repent and believe "now".

[@rms-vp6hf]

Is it a sin to not feel the same about a sin, as the person who is suffering the consequences of it if it isn’t my sin?

[@CanonPress]

if I'm understanding you, no, empathy is not the chief virtue.

[@leadinged]

I’m guessing the Thabiti would not reconcile with Doug today. He has moved fully into the woke cult.

[@WARTV-dn5fk]

Piper is SUCH a snake, Doug has more integrity in his little finger than he does in his whole body; you can just tell that his “righteousness” is worldly, is really just ‘woke’, but oh so dressed up, disguised by reformed rhetoric. The way he just ASSUMES moral authority over Doug is downright disgusting 😳

[@ceciliaramos2280]

This was 2013. Things have gotten 10,000 times worse since then.

[@busybee4436]

💯👏 my how fast things have worsened!

[@joeyhershel2311]

@@busybee4436 or gotten better depending on what you believe

[@keithwilson6060]

@@joeyhershel2311 It’s not a subjective assessment. Evil encroaches ever more until Christ puts a final stop to it. A man was recently jailed in Canada for calling his flesh-and-blood daughter a girl. Don’t try to white wash that.

[@dankxng]

Because of people like Doug and people that enable him like Piper.

[@joeyhershel2311]

​@@keithwilson6060 I mean less women are getting sexually harassed, the stigma regarding homosexuality have gone down, and women have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Which I think is more important than a father having the right to emotionally abuse his daughter. Wbu?

[@mikeslifestyletipsreaction833]

Only 44 minutes in but it's burning me to say in response to John Piper talking about the emotional difference between slavery and abortion. Can we at least be reasonable to agree that one ended 150 years ago and actively celebrated. Also, can we be factual and acknowledge that slavery play very, very, very little part in the explanation for the condition kf blacks in America this is notes by giants such at Thomas Sowell, Walter E. Williams...

[@outboardprsnlstndup]

Wow, how time can turn the tables and change people/uncover their ulterior motives. 2013: Piper can't say black brother, white brother, white rascal brother enough. Praises Thabiti, who sounded like a good guy. Questions, or pushes back on Wilson's abrasive and inflammatory book (haven't read it, so can't comment), take on race relations and tactics in general. 2019: Thabiti, TGC, Jemar Tisby, etc., etc., etc. have either fallen victim to an ideology along the way, or reveal what they had in mind all along. Now they are the inflammatory ones as much or more than anyone else, but have done further, mixing in false gospels with the real. I wonder what Piper's take today would be on what 2013 Doug Wilson predicted and hence came true. He owes a lot of us an apology who called much of this stuff out. If he has that video, I'd like to see it.

[@outboardprsnlstndup]

Music, that’s a whole lot of talk that means very little. For one, taxes should not the the charity system, so it’s not compassionate in reality to take money from people to give, faintly indiscriminately to people who may or may not be poor at the state or national levels. It sounds like your hearts in the right place, but have bought into many of the same things piper may have, and people like thabiti most definitely have. Pick a point of yours and I’ll talk about it. I’m no more evil in my heart than you

[@PneumaticTube]

Piper comes across like a nervous pansy. Wilson seems confident and unworried about how the world might feel uncomfortable with what he says.

[@JohnSmith-ir9wx]

Piper the Calvinist Calvinism is heresy

[@naev0]

People bagging on Piper in the comments have completed missed what the Lord did in this discussion and the discussions that we didn't get to see first hand.

[@Shotz2daBody]

Facts!

[@serenitypeaceandcomfort3669]

Piper is leading thousands down the wrong road. Doesn't matter if his intentions are good or not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Piper needs to be called out. He is a hireling. And the uninformed, the Biblically illiterate will always be attracted to the sjw, emotional leader. He is a Pied Piper leading believers down the wrong road.

[@Youtubed1111]

I hope I get a chance to meet Douglas one day !

[@CanonPress]

come to Canon Press and we know people who can make that happennnn

[@Stanzi18]

@@CanonPress what about John Piper?

[@Youtubed1111]

@canonpress The first chance I have to leave California I will take you up on that ! I am a 23 year old man who’s faith has been greatly enriched by, how God has used Mr. Wilson, to speak truth into my life! I feel a intense call to ministry and have been taking steps to set up a small evangelistic/ apologetics ministry here in California. If I every had the opportunity to meet Mr. Wilson , well beside picking his brain, I would love to thank him for the wonderful work of the kingdom he has done !

[@rjparker268]

I would love to see a new talk between these two men with a focus on similar themes.

[@Stanzi18]

Why's that? Has something changed recently to make you think they'd offer something of more substance on these issues or do you mean that there just wasn't enough time allotted in this discussion?

[@LeoRegum]

@@Stanzi18 The ground has shifted in the last few years. Issues of race/''social justice'' are everywhere now. The SBC is being torn apart over it.

[@rjparker268]

Jacob Stanziole, yes, things have changed. A portion of the reformed church has begun to move to the left in the area of social justice. I think Pastor Piper is trying to stay “above” the fray. Pastor Wilson is diving right in. I respect both of their choices, but for someone like me who does not know what I should do, I would like to hear their reasoning for their decisions.

[@kristinazubic9669]

I want to read those exchanges!

[@SmithFamilyFarmstead]

Doug!!! So good

[@zapazap]

I fear some will have the attitude that someone on the autism spectrum (say) will be _expected_ -- will be _required_ -- to emote in a way which is impossible to them, in order for them to be accepted, or their words to be accepted. It is like imputing the ability to walk to a paralyzed person, and having contempt for them not standing up from their wheelchair. It is *horrible.*

[@Daniel-ny7tk]

Who took whom out of Egypt? What an ego to make a big deal about skin color? Do the jews still complain? Unwise to respond to those who play victim and not interested in being responsible or productive. The Lord does not judge on the outward appearance and neither does his followers. He does judge by your action, inaction and motivation.

[@waitaminutewhat]

Piper always acts like he’s always apologizing for everything. Just say what you want to say and be done with it.

[@CanonPress]

wait a minute, what?

[@thirstypilgrim97]

He's painfully careful to not offend sensibilities, a trait shared with the conservatives who didnt even conserve the ladies room.

[@mafia461]

True...You can't please everyone, just say ur peace and get over it.

[@Stanzi18]

The office of pastor is a very difficult position and calling. Your comment shows your misunderstanding of the pressures and struggles a pastor faces daily. A pastor is one who's supposed to be looked at as a man of high standing among believers and outsiders. Sorry that you're offended by his carefulness in preaching and defending the faith, he only has to answer to God at the end of his life.

[@thirstypilgrim97]

Jacob Stanziole We all see how much ground he is willing to give in order to maintain appearances. Your apologetics doesn’t change the facts that compassion can be damaging when it obscures the truth. His lunch conversation didn’t move the needle at all... those children are still being sacrificed at the alter of “college loans”. And when God does ask those brothers why they supported the murder of innocents, “it’s complicated” probably won’t suffice. I do not envy the job of a pastor, but I also do not consider compromise a feature of “high standing”.

[@SmithFamilyFarmstead]

The old john piper compromise...sad. I like a lot of what he says, but when he says he loves the gospel but skirts the issue of sin....that's not loving the gospel

[@jamesgasaway7784]

I appreciate much from John Piper, but he's right that he has blind spots. If you didn't catch it the first time, he drew comparisons between the murder of 60 million children and student loans. His whole list was "how will this make my life better?" issues. He's absolutely wrong on the voting issue. Voting for a candidate who supports infanticide is a sin and church discipline is appropriate. "Life is complicated" doesn't cut it.

[@dankxng]

The problem is that you don't actually care about unborn lives. If you did, you would vote for pro-choice candidates because every pro-choice candidate has had millions of less abortions during their presidential terms as opposed to pro-life presidents... The lowest the abortion rate has ever been (by a large margin) is actually Obama. So what you're saying is that you would actually rather more unborn lives to die as long as the president says what you want him to say. The words and beliefs of your president is more important to you than the actual lives of unborn babies. You don't care about abortion unless it's a talking point for you....

[@tripp8833]

"murder" denotes illegally killing. Abortion is legal and they are fetuses, not children. care to refine your terminology are do you just like hyperbole too much?

[@bloombloom271]

@@dankxng Your position is grotesque.

[@dankxng]

@@bloombloom271 Which part?

[@EchoToaster_]

@@dankxng the entirety of it you degenerate.

[@terrybowleg1186]

Do Doug and John still talk?

[@TKOJOJO]

I hope so

[@JasonJrake]

@@TKOJOJO amen.

[@dianameyreles4888]

I hope not.

[@musicartsalive]

Piper is dubious

[@acornsucks2111]

I wish that was the worse thing I was ever called.

[@taratags4499]

Piper: 1:25:00 “Who *knows* what new disease might be coming down the pike...?” 🤔

[@QueenCityFilmsComm]

Hmmmm...Now we KNOW LOL!

[@keithwilson6060]

The disease of cowardice?

[@dontrushtohate]

He’s part of the new wold order.... LOL. I just thought this would be the first comment

[@designbuild7128]

@@keithwilson6060 true or maybe worse. The disease of no discernment: e.g. conflating social programs being a right or justice equivalent to abortion tragedy

[@djentile7773]

@@laylo8800 That is patently false. You are the one who needs research buddy. Measure preachers with what the Bible says, not from second hand knowledge off of some random video on KZbin.

[@garretttekampe9564]

If it's about the lesser of the evils, the support of abortions is always the greater evil from that of financial policy. Look at things the way God looks at them. Also John Piper acts like the best way to know more about subjects is to hear from experience rather than formal truths about them. Experience has too much of a high seat in determining what is true because it never has been a valid test of truth. Getting your perspective from the word is a better alternative than getting a deferent perspective from someone with different color skin, because experience doesn't give you anything the word of God doesn't already give you more of.

[@Mando-d4k]

I love Doug Wilson. Not so much Piper. In fact, I rather loathe the man. After he dissed Trump in support of Biden? His speech has all the allure of fingernails on a chalkboard.

[@paigewells3678]

I’d like to hear John actually say what issue is worth comparing to abortion, which would make things “ complicated “, in who to vote for . Which issues? Abortion is chopping up babies. Don’t like to write that , but come on. This is level one basic stuff.

[@lydialutz]

But Republicans don´t actually change abortion. Some say they don´t mind it sticking around because it helps them get votes to run on a pro-life platform. I used to vote only pro-life, but then I realized the pro-life candidates are often just as corrupt and don't actually do anything to change abortion.

[@chriseden202]

“But republicans don’t actually change abortion” Uh…the last Republican president (Trump) appointed 3 pro life Supreme Court Justices, just like he said he would. Now Roe V Wade is overturned. Maybe you should study up on the truth and try again. 🤫

[@taratags4499]

1:51:25 - From generators and peanut butter to deep freezers and toilet paper. Although I admit I do have a good few extra jars of PB in our pantry right now (Jif, of course!), and I’m not mad about it! 😆

[@bpaudert]

Piper calls DW a rascal and labels his book as offensive. He seems to assume all black grievance is legitimate and should be voiced. His caution and correction is directed towards Wilson but doesn’t have the same concern for blacks. To Piper, they are pure and wounded…….and Wilson is partially correct but comes across as uncaring. Which further damages them and hinders reconciliation. Too bad Piper didn’t see through Thabiti’s con game. He was biased from the start, gave blacks too much benefit, and too little scrutiny. AND, he didn’t demand from them the same self reflection he did from Wilson. That was dishonest.

[@tyguy2007]

Wow look at these paving the way for wokeness

[@dankxng]

Hahahahahahahahaahaha Doug Wilson is the antithesis of "wokeness."

[@orgullosamentemexicana952]

You're not listening! It is men like u that ruin it for men like Pastor Doug! 🙄

[@Mikegrinnell90]

This whole talk seems like a very passive aggressive rebuke of Wilson.

[@pfrodigal]

I would agree. But from what I’ve seen, it didn’t work.

[@acornsucks2111]

I could only take so much and I stopped watching.

[@thewonderinggentile]

....how has Doug Wil's voice changed so much over 8 years?? lol

[@dankxng]

Huh? What has changed?

[@Kws315]

The more I watch this the more I don’t like John. He’s not balanced.

[@elizjawebb6310]

John piper has so much swag

[@martinsmith2948]

I love black people so much

[@acornsucks2111]

bless your heart.

[@chrisctlr]

Bahnsen did a radio debate with someone from Operation Rescue.

[@D-meist]

48:40 What if the only black man in your town is @Chocolate_Knox and he's not above 50 yet?

[@jjjjjjjjj323]

What are you getting at?