Dr Jennifer Wiseman on Re-enchanting The Universe

[@peterboos930]

This is one of you best discussion ever. Dr Wiseman is such a sincere and credible voice. Powerful

[@mrcarroll1386]

She is a real inspiration to all us Christian lovers of Science. I found myself praising God through the whole listening! Just at the thought of how incredible the universe is, and how wonderful it is that disciples like Jennifer can display such Godly wisdom, gentleness and love. Thank you for making podcasts like this. I've listened to the whole series and I'm so excited for more! Gives me something precious to recommend to others also!!!

[@velkyn1]

So, wiseman's argument is that she wants to pretend something cares for her, so she'll believe it despite the lack of evidence. A sense of awe and wonder doesn't need some vicious petty god.

[@skatter44]

What in the world are you talking about? Did you even watch the entire video? She never once said the words 'I want to pretend that something cares about me' nor did she imply this. How did you come to this conclusion based on what she said? When you make the claim that there is a lack of evidence, what evidence do you think there should be for the existence of God? Why do you think that God is a vicious, petty being? This usually stems from a misunderstanding of some of the accounts from the Hebrew Bible.

[@velkyn1]

@@skatter44 I know she didn't say what I paraphrased. I looked at what she said and yes, it is sayin she wants to believe because she wants to think tha tsomething designed things, that something has a purpose for her, and she does this without evidence. "on the other hand you have those who say but as you were sort of hinting at look at the Precision the way in which the the the the the forces of the universe are fine-tuned to allow life to develop at some point in the cosmos um and even even people like Einstein who said the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is its comprehensibility the fact as you said we simple humans with our brains can do the science that we that is written in the law of mathematics and so on so I mean I suppose what I'm gearing up to is what do you think that can in essentially can you look at the world the universe and the science we do it with and say it does Point Beyond itself in some way there are telltale signs at least that that there could be a mind behind this whole show I think yes I I think the answer is yes" There should be evidence for your god that isn't just some vague handwaving that can apply to any force or other deity, Sean. For example, christians want to claim that fine tuning is evidence for your god. It is not since we don't know how far off we can be from the supposed "constants", and we see nothing that indicates that humans are the point of the universe, especially since 99.999...% of it is deadly to humans. Even most of the earth is deadly to humans, being that we can't breathe under water. Then we have the common christain attempt to claim that the universe had a beginning so their god had to be the cause. A simply force can be the case just as well. This god is a vicious and petty being, and we can see that in the OT and NT. First we have your god creating amoral human beings and throwing a tantrum when they don't know right vs wrong. Then we have this god drowing everyone, includging animals and children, when it fails again. Then we have this god in the exodus, again murdering peopel who had no choice in the matter, and mind controlling both the pharoah, so it could show off, and the egyptians so the israelites could steal from them. After this, then we get all of the genocide, where this god commits and commands it, where it hits all of the UNs description of genocide in its actions, including keepign young girls as sex slaves. Oh and don't forget where your god says that keeping slaves is just fine, as long as they aren't Israelites. We keep going and see the story of job, again where this god allows a family to be murdered, so it can show off to its supposed archenemy, and then trying ot buy off job with money and a "new" family. Then we can go into the NT, where this god has a version itself born to serve as a blood sacrifice by torture. I'm quite happy not to need such a scapegoat. I'm responsible for my own actions. Then we have jesus and paul claiming that this god has already chosen who it will allow to accept it, damning the rest for no fault of their own, just to serve as examples to keep the others in line. We get to see this god insist that slaves never seek their freedom, and finally, we have this god forcing humans to work with this archenemy for this god's plan to work and this god, after killing everyone else, has to free this satan to corrupt the christians who are left. Quite vicious petty god you have there.

[@skatter44]

@@velkyn1 You claim that “…she does this without evidence.” You can’t make this claim confidently. It’s true that she does not given specific reasons for why she believes, but that wasn’t the point of this particular video. Until she states why she believes, this claim is unfounded. In regards to the fine-tuning evidence, as well as other cosmological arguments, their goal is not to prove the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. I see most of those arguments as being useful to move the strict materialist/atheist from Atheism to Theism. If you read Anthony Flew’s book ‘There is a God’ he said that there were four pieces of scientific evidence and one philosophical argument that moved him from Atheism to Theism. His default position for Theism was similar to Aristotle’s God. Then, he said, the next step was to make an exploration of any of the existing worldviews/religions to see what they offered. He never came to a definitive conclusion before he died, but he did say in the back of his book that the writings of N.T. Wright showed him that Jesus and Paul were two of the most compelling people he had ever read. So depending on where you are at, the arguments for the origin of the universe and its fine-tuning, the origin of biological life and its fine-tuning, along with arguments for Consciousness, Free Will, and morality are designed to move a person from Atheism to Theism. Then we can explore the claims of the existing religions to see what they have to offer. As to your mischaracterizations of the examples from both the Hebrew Bible and from the New Testament, I submit that they are shallow and uniformed. They are little more than straw men. You really need to not take your understanding of the Bible from skeptics who have no real clue how to understand and read the Bible. There are cultural differences and language challenges that need to be reckoned with before coming to a better understanding of the examples you cited. I suggest The Bible Project videos and podcasts to help better understand these passages. Your claims about the Judeo-Christian God being petty and vicious is an interesting one. If you look closely at what your complaint is about, it is a moral argument. You are claiming that this God acts in an immoral way. But by what standard are you judging this God by? If you are like most people today, the thought is that morality is just whatever is convenient or what “works” but whatever morality is, we decide what is right and wrong. There is no standard above us that we all must adhere to. Yet, you are making a claim that there is some sort of moral standard that is not anyone’s opinion but something we all know to be true. So by what standard are you judging God’s actions by and why should He adhere to what you think is right and wrong moral behavior?

[@velkyn1]

@@skatter44 I can indeed make that claim confidently and have done so. The goal of fine-tuning and cosmological arguments are indeed for proving some imaginary nonsense is true. So yes, it is theists who use this and the ones who use it worship the same judeo/christian/muslim god. Anthony Flew, a deist at best, is a rather abused figure by christians, sine they insist on falsely claiming he is one of them, when there is no evidence of that. That Paul and Jesus contradict each other must have made it rather difficult for him to come to a conclusion. You of course will make false claims that my mentions of bible are "shallow and uniformed' but cannot show that this is the case. You cannot show that they are strawman, doing the typical christian accusations with nothing to support them. Christians all have differnt claims of what the bible "really" means, Sean. Onen christian telling me that his version is the "right" one doesn't hold water. Yep, it is a moral argument Sean, and funny how christians don't agree on what morals their god wants, each contradicting the next. I can judge this god quite easily, with morals invented by humans, as all morals are. They are subjective and happily can change. I'm not stuck with the ignorance of humans from several thousand years ago. For example, I don't have to believe that it is moral to have a god that kills people for the actions like you do. That is both unjust and unfair. I do not believe in any objective morality, and i know christians don't have it either. You, as stated above, can't agree on what morals you want to pretend your god wants. YOu also have the problem that many of you have no problem with this god doing things that you would, hopefully, be aghast at if a human did the same, e.g. genocide, killing a child for an adult's action, etc. This shows your morality is entirely subjective, dependent on who or what someone is, rather than any objective moral associated with an action. Many morals are common, but nothing shows that they are objective. They help humans and civilizations exist. My morals are based on my empathy and self-interest, and yep, that allows me to judge your vicious and petty god.

[@skatter44]

@@velkyn1 “The goal of [the] fine-tuning and cosmological arguments are indeed for proving some imaginary nonsense is true.” This is incorrect. The goal of these arguments are to show that strictly Naturalistic explanations cannot account for them. They are strongly suggestive towards a cause outside of a Naturalistic/Materialist framework. You misunderstood my point about bringing up Antony Flew. It is irrelevant if some Christians misuse and “falsely claiming” that he is one of them. What is relevant is that he carefully examined the evidence from science and philosophy and came to the conclusion that Atheism was no longer a tenable position to hold. That’s a huge step to move from Atheism to Theism. To claim that he was “a deist at best” shows you didn’t read his book ‘There is a God’ or you didn’t read it carefully. Jesus and Paul did not contradict each other. Please “show your work” for this claim. It’s one thing to make assertions (which you have done throughout) and another thing to actually back them up. My claims of your knowledge of the Bible is not false as it is clear you do not have even a basic understanding of what is being communicated in the pages of the Bible. I didn’t provide any reasons for why your understanding of the Bible is shallow and uninformed because 1] you didn’t provide any specifics for me to address and 2] you don’t seem particularly interested in reading a the lengthy response it would take to explain the different passages. If you would like to pick ONE passage that bothers you and you are actually interested in hearing an alternate explanation to yours, I would be happy to do so. Otherwise, I’m not wasting my time. You have completely misunderstood what I was talking about when I brought up morality. Morality is at the heart of the matter. The Biblical account of the fall of humanity centered around deciding what is right and wrong, which is what we are still doing. We are trying to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong instead of choosing to follow what God says is right and wrong. Objective morality doesn’t mean that we have to follow it or that somehow it will compel us to follow it. No, it simply means that it is a standard outside of all of humanity that we can all appeal to. So the reason everyone (including Christians) as to why we can’t agree on what is right and wrong is because we want to make that call. Our morality is subjective and subject to change which means it’s not a good foundation to base our lives on as it can change based on any whim or feeling. That’s why God’s morality that Jesus taught us is to love one another. That’s not too difficult to figure out how to do that. But it’s not romantic love, it’s a sacrificial, giving love. As the famous passage from the Bible states: “Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up. It is not rude, it is not self-serving, it is not easily angered or resentful. It is not glad about injustice, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”