Dr. Layne Norton: Collagen is a Waste of Money! (But, is it?)

[@Physionic]

No Amendments, currently.

[@ThingsYoudontwanttohear]

Excellent comments. I have a few questions for your further research: 1- Could Hydroxyproline (Hyp) be a better measurement than leucine for tendon/collagen growth? 2- I am a bit confused as to which milk protein was actually used in the mentioned studies. Was it casein or whey? This would make a big difference because of the proline content in casein which is equal to that in collagen. Whey is lower. 3- Do the collagen receptors you mention respond in the same way to single amino acids as to peptides? The study below shows that at least one of these receptors responds to the Hyp. (Pun intended 😉 ) Dose-dependent changes in the levels of free and peptide forms of hydroxyproline in human plasma after collagen hydrolysate ingestion, Yasutaka Shigemura et al. 4- We know that di- and tripeptides can be absorbed into the blood, but what amounts are we talking about? And what percentage of those will the collagen receptors respond to? PS: calculated Proline contents Gelatin 14.4% Gluten 12.5% casein 12.0% Whey 7.1%

[@presence5426]

@@georgewashington3619 It's the peptides. Studies using pork hydrolysate (gelatin) have demonstrated that a few di- and tri-peptides do in fact get absorbed into serum. But also, collagen provides a big dose of glycine, proline & hydroxyproline. Probably these free AA's are having an effect. There is research on supplemental glycine that looks very positive.

[@PurpleWolfer]

What I'd like to know is if there are any studies done using different types of collagen from different sources. Because what I had read somewhere a while back is that most of the collagen typically used is types 1 and 3 but those don't do much for joints vs. Type 4 (I think it was 4) is the type that improves joint health. Could you maybe look into that if you haven't already?

[@presence5426]

@@PurpleWolfer Lots. Because there are so many collagen sources, researchers have studied eveything from pork to beef, chicken, fish, eggshell membrane, etc. Type 2 is thought to be best for joints.

[@PurpleWolfer]

@@presence5426 Thanks! But I'm wondering if they use the "incorrect" type of collagen when doing studies such as the ones mentioned in this video?

[@Sean_Shaun_Shawn]

This is so rare on KZbin- respectful disagreement with a motive towards finding the truth and admitting there's a lack of knowns rather than raking in views from perceived drama and black and white claims. Power on mate.

[@EhurtAfy]

True, it is rare among KZbinrs, but not among scientists. Good to see nonetheless

[@glenallen320]

@@EhurtAfyhow can you say that after the last few years?

[@AmirKhan-lp1tl]

​@EhurtAfy have you been on Layne Norton page and watched any of his rants? He's one of the most disrespectful scientists out there.

[@DoctorMihail]

So true

[@paavoilves5416]

​@@AmirKhan-lp1tl Since when has calling out bullshit claims and cultish diet fads been disrespectful?

[@AminataYKanu]

I am a 50 year old black woman, I have been taking 10g daily dose of collagen for about 8 years. I recently suffered a massive, terrible burn. In less than a month, the burn had healed and the skin looked no different to my original skin. I believe it is because of the collagen I take. I, also, am a protein scientist albeit I did my PhD on citrate synthase.

[@Physionic]

Citrate synthase! Too cool! I’ve done some work with citrate synthase as a measure of mitochondrial function. Thanks for chiming in.

[@AminataYKanu]

@@Physionic That sounds interesting! Anything published I can read? I looked at which structural features were necessary for the stability of the enzyme. I am now more interested in peptides and aging.

[@elibennett6168]

Are you taking hydrolyzed collagen? Sorry for the burn event but so glad it healed up well!

[@AminataYKanu]

@@elibennett6168 Yes. The one I take contains 5 types from 4 different sources.

[@captainreza1]

That doesn’t prove the effectiveness of collagen!

[@lukenukem1207]

Not to sound like a fortune cookie, but your integrity and diligence has taken you far in life, and will continue to do so.

[@Faz-Ahmed]

I've been taking collagen for 10years, i suffered dramatic aging of my skin in my 20's. Whey protein alone did nothing for my skin but it helped increase mass. The collagen on the other hand reversed 3 eyebag lines under my eyes out of 5, which stalls whenever i take a break from collagen. My protein intake stays around 160lb. The squares that you see when you look at your skin closesly, have all reduced in size, and now i'm onto finally reducing the last 2 eyebag lines

[@Nivloc317]

Your inclusion of the statistical nuance was very insightful. Thank you for all of your efforts.

[@Physionic]

Much appreciated

[@ASOT666]

I CANNOT believe I just stumbled across this channel. The quality of this video was insane.

[@presence5426]

Please stop using the term "insane" for things that aren't.

[@linchen2700]

Same here right now. Greetings from germany

[@ASOT666]

@@presence5426 find me any other channel that goes through research papers in this much depth and manages to simplify it

[@jobe8764]

After six months, Collagen supplements healed my keloids. After two years, collagen supplements healed my two torn meniscus in my knees and a torn glenoid labrum in my shoulder. Prior to that, the doctors said that I would need dual knee replacements and surgery to relieve shoulder pain. Thanks to collagen, my cartilage has all healed. No pain, no surgery, and an active lifestyle. Doctors should give a disclaimer that there is more they don't know than what they do know.

[@enriquemoreno2893]

that is great! which type of collagen did you take? type I ? III?

[@becomingsoul]

Your body will heal all kinds of stuff over 6 months and 2 years

[@EdEscapes]

how did collagen heal your keloids? you applied it topically? ive been taking collagen for a while and no luck on my keloid scars yet

[@orion9k]

@@EdEscapes always combine vitamin C with collagen, for synergy effect.

[@mtbjason4]

So many people "feel" like collagen supplementation helps them. Is it possible that, in people who are protein deficient, collagen supplements help simply by increasing their overall protein intake? A while ago I had started to take collagen and I indeed, after a month or so of taking it, felt like I had better skin and joints. I stopped wanting to spend the money on it and instead switched over to just eating more protein in my diet in general. I started feeling even better.

[@capcomfan82]

Collagen is not a complete protein

[@presence5426]

There are lots of positive anecdotes. Including yours. There is also a large body of research on collagen supplements, demonstrating that it has effects independent of just being "more protein." It contains a unique amino acid profile, and is a source of unique, bioavailable, short peptides.

[@presence5426]

@@capcomfan82 So? Proteins don't have to be complete to be useful.

[@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans]

​@@capcomfan82No one takes collagen for it being a complete protein or not. The hydroxyproline content is the most significant difference from other proteins.

[@xylivb]

@@presence5426problem ist most of all studies are not well controlled, the control group doesnt take as much protein as the collagen group

[@joshm3342]

My cocker spaniel began limping at age 14. After seeing 2 vets with no resolution, I began giving him Unflavored Gelatin. He resumed walking normally in less than 2 weeks. I have since switched to Collagen Peptides (I take it also). My dog is still able to run at age 16-1/2. I have always fed him a grain-free, high protein diet.

[@MorganTDaniels]

I can say I tried various joint supplements as a 55 year old BJJ black belt. The only supplement that I felt a marked improvement in joint function and overall movement was hands down collagen. Now that is anecdotal but I’ve tried lots of things. And when 10 other items did nothing and one did you take note.

[@wyndell300]

I competed in the Olympic games and track and field, and I'm now 60 years old. and I have been coaching athletes for the last 30 years to make Olympic teams and set world records. One of the most outstanding things that I have ever seen in connective tissue strengthening and recovery for myself and other athletes, was to add collagen along with whey protein. and when it comes to amino acid breakdown collagen has more l-glutamine than whey protein and over the last 30 years I have personally had over 100 people tell me how much their joints feel better after using collagen peptides. oh yeah one more thing I hold several world records for the age group in track and field, I also am coaching and athlete on his nutrition who is 53 years old who just set the world record in the 200 m for the over 50 athletes, and yes he is using collagen. Olympic athlete Wyndell Dickinson.

[@ThePeterR66]

thank you for your testimony

[@wyndell300]

Oh you're welcome this is changed my life, and many of my friends as well.

[@florflor-i5h]

10 gm per day?

[@yuliia-o5o]

Thank you for this! Extremely valuable

[@paulgal]

@@wyndell300what collagen do you take if you don’t mind me asking?

[@stevencraigbryan3770]

I take a hydrolyzed multi Collagen peptide. Contains 5 different types or sources. I find it very helpful, especially since I'm 67 and lift heavy. Love your content.

[@keylanoslokj1806]

Non denatured?

[@tomcop668]

All I know is collagen peptides have helped me tremendously with stiffness, soreness, my ligament in my knee and my feet. It didn't take long either.

[@presence5426]

Clinical trials in humans show exactly that. Glad it's working.

[@CentralTokyo]

I moved to Japan several years ago, still live there today. They advertised collagen powder supplements here as a skin anti-aging supplement. It was pretty cheap, so I tried it. It seemed to have some positive effects, just based on appearance, so I’ve been using it quite regularly since then. I turned 40 last year. I don’t have an identical twin that hasn’t been taking collagen supplements, so I can’t make a definitive statement, but people have always thought I looked younger than I am. That hasn’t changed.

[@susanbeever5708]

Collagen l, ll, lll, V & X work great for my joint pain. I have a TRPA1 hypersensitivity that is found in joints that stimulates somatostatin that inhibits bone and cartilage production. Before taking the collagen I would wake from great pain, after the supplements the pain was gone.

[@karenf9137]

Wow! Very interesting. I just watched a show about that last night!

[@justinfitzpatrick013]

I read that you want a supplement which mentions type I and III. The other types, apparently, are basically filler and result in a less effective supplement.

[@susanbeever5708]

@@justinfitzpatrick013 with too much TRPA1 somatostatin production? Do you have a title of the study? Thnx

[@presence5426]

@@justinfitzpatrick013 Not filler. Any collagen type will contain similar protein structures, and is therefore a source of bioactive peptides & AA's such as glycine, proline, hydroxyproline, etc.

[@johnbosler8288]

I really appreciate how you break down into what you agree with and what you don't. The detailed analysis of others work is a great learning experience. I have been taking bone broth and gelatin and it has helped out the pain in my knees hips ankles and spine. When I would feel great I would discontinue the treatment a few months. Later the pain would come back. I would resume supplementation and the pain would go away. The body main break it down into individual amino acids or di or tri peptides but I think it's the ratios that matter most if you run out of the supply of individual amino acids necessary for the complete chain of collagen you will stop production. The ratios of amino acids perfectly lineup for collagen production. Being produced from skin and ligaments I would also be half curious if other support nutrients we're also included along with the supplement.

[@carlr2837]

What about the impact of collagen supplements on nails and hair? Also, collagen contains a great deal of glycine, while whey protein contains cysteine. If you take both, you have the building blocks for your body to make glutathione, a powerful anti-oxidant that declines as we age.

[@presence5426]

Yep on the glycine & cysteine. Lots of talk about GlyNAC for pumping up glutathione production. I haven't seen a ton of studies looking at collagen for nails & hair, but there are a few, with mixed results. Lots of anecdotes!

[@peterpan408]

I noticed 5g/day coming through my nails.. When I upped to 15g/day, even more robust. I pound Collagen and Whey.. so I guess I'm onto the right formula!

[@rseed42]

I was also very skeptical of collagen supplements for the exact same reason that proteins get reduced to amino acids in the digestive system. If only di- and tripeptides get into the bloodstream (no higher oligopeptides), then collagen is truly a placebo, because these fragments will be produced by any protein source. The only thing that could save the supplement is if some amino acids have a very specific ratio, so that specific combinations have a higher number, but that is rather unlikely, since protein from the diet most likely dominates and will wash out such subtle effects.

[@tru-b1o]

Great video. Can you also make a video on the difference between gelatin and collagen peptides? I can't find much research where they are compared and I have a hunch that gelatin helps more with the idea that more dipeptides and tripeptides since it is supposed to be less hydrolyzed. I think also that since gelatin is less hydrolyzed it has a bigger chance of increasing digestion and signaling to produce more collagen fibril.

[@EhurtAfy]

I think his previous collagen video was pretty good. Anyways, as far as I personally understand, hydrolyzed collagen means more of the peptides survive digestion whereas something like gelatin gets broken down into its constituent amino acids. Your body can use these amino acids to make collagen itself but it takes time. I doubt there's much benefit to supplementing with gelatin compared to collagen and gelatin isn't cheap either. I would only ever supplement with hydrolyzed collagen. Otherwise a diet rich in whole foods sources of protein will provide all the amino acids. If you like to put gelatin in broths or whatever I'm sure it's beneficial, it provides plenty of the amino acids the body needs to produce collagen. Don't forget exercise also

[@presence5426]

I don't know that it matters much. Gelatin is produced by heating animal tissue (say, pork skin). Heating "denatures" the collagen which makes up the animal skin. That's why, when you boil chicken parts to make soup, you will see all that goopy gelatin congealed on top when you cool the soup down- it came from the chicken skin & perhaps other parts. Collagen (hydrolyzed) peptides are a processed product from, say, cow hide. The large, original protein molecule is broken down with acid and/or enzymatic treatment to create *peptides*, which are shorter strings of AA's (maybe 10-100 or 200 AA's long). So... in theory, your own digestive system has to do less work to break down the peptides into individual AA's, or short oligopeptides (di- and tri- peptides). And these get absorbed more readily.

[@zakazan8561]

it's mostly just marketing and convenience. The best studies for collagen (and vit c) supplementation use gelatin. The peptides will dissolve readily in liquids, gelatin won't. Your body is specifically designed to handle this type of protein and you have proteolytic enzymes in your stomach that cleave these molecules with no problem.

[@tru-b1o]

@@zakazan8561 Thank you for that I think most of the studies forcus on gelatin because many capsules are made with it. All studies state that it dissolves into the very same collagen peptides.

[@presence5426]

@@zakazan8561 It's true that a lot of good studies use gelatin. But I'm not sure it matters about dissolving or not. If anything, water solubility could be a good thing. Makers of hydrolyzed collagen claim that because their product is loaded with pre-cleaved peptides, it's easier to digest. So in theory, one would absorb more di- and tri-peptides from a hydrolyzed product. Gelatin, on the other hand, takes more work to break down in the digestive tract. But in the end, I'm not sure it matters. Because the spikes of peptides in the blood are tiny (but still meaningful). So no matter what form of collagen we consume, there will be a spike.

[@williamohora]

What the other commented said: incredible quality of this video. Love how you broke it down, showed his thoughts, and added nuanced information. 10/10 vid.

[@jmc8076]

Wearing the T-shirt vs just living it? TBH watched his video and compared his data to yours and did my own. This was diplomatic/objective. No need to ‘destroy’ diff views or shut them down. They’re key to good science. Thx

[@StainlessBottle]

My understanding is that collegen contains a relatively high abundance of acetylated and glycosylated amino acids. It may be these modified single amino acids or small peptides that are having the specific anabolic effect that some research reports. Either through signalling and upregulation of collagen synthesis or simply as an increased supply of precursors (though I doubt such precursors are substrates for translation).

[@wburtney5154]

Five years ago I was suppose to have knee replacement surgery. My knees sounded like old rusty barn door hinges. I didn’t go to the surgeon instead I took 10,000 IU of D3 and Knox gelatine. I noticed a difference in a month and in 6 months I threw away my cane.

[@presence5426]

Was that the Joel Wallach protocol?

[@wburtney5154]

@@presence5426 it does appear what Joel Wallach would do. But no. Chemistry is my game. The right combination of amino acids and what might be off the cuff considered a catalyst D3

[@ryankittle3431]

My joints feel "cushioned" when I take collagen peptides daily, and especially pre workout, as opposed to when I never used to use collagen peptides.

[@Dvpainter]

same, working a 26K+ steps/day job and it absolutely makes a difference in my personal QoL

[@raphakong4242]

Good, could you please recommend the brand?

[@Dvpainter]

@@raphakong4242 honestly I just buy whichever ones have collagen I, II, III, V, and X with that hyaluronic acid and vitamin c based on whatever price is lowest on amazon when I need to refill edit: typo

[@ryankittle3431]

@@raphakong4242 I use the iherb brand bovine collagen peptides. Most affordable one I've found.

[@fragslap5229]

It's called a PLACEBO effect.

[@elibennett6168]

Great video - the item by item explanation with visuals is very helpful!

[@marekstrutinsky6429]

I wonder what would happen if we add leucine to the mix? Would it improve the synthesis of the collagen? I usually drink my collagen together with whey protein, + 3 g of Leucine, exactly for the reason to triggering MTOR.

[@andrewrivera4029]

Ya, that’s what I was thinking.

[@antoneriksson356]

Love to hear both your and Dr Nortons take on this. Great content as always!

[@helenahandkart1857]

Adding in mixed bovine & marine collagen has improved my arthritis, skin hair & nails significantly. I only use scant amounts, less that recommended doses. I've also increased diverse cooked on bone meat dished, inc. Chicken, lamb & pork.

[@presence5426]

You might look into UC-II & eggshell membrane (NEM). Both get results for arthritis with very low doses.

[@helenahandkart1857]

@@presence5426 What I'm doing is so easy & working perfectly, but thank you. If it needs tweaking this could be handy to know. What is Uc-ll, btw?

[@presence5426]

@@helenahandkart1857 You betcha. I'm glad you're getting good results. Undenatured Collagen, type 2, from chicken sternum. I believe it has been tested in doses as low as 40mg. Remarkable that such a tiny dose would have an effect.

[@helenahandkart1857]

@@presence5426 Thank you, that is good to know. We cook a few chicken on bone casseroles that would contain this. We use variously tomato, lemon, wine & apple cider vinegar to assist with the collagen & bone breakdown, & bioavailability. I find if I get over enthusiastic with collagen it precipitates either gout or oxalate.. my gout is essentially absent on a lowish carb diet, so I think it might actually be a hydroxyproline to oxalate conversion, which I both annoyingly but usefully only just recently learned about.

[@presence5426]

@@helenahandkart1857 Probably whole cuts of chicken, and especially a whole bird does have plenty of collagen. Various types as well, from skin, cartilage, tendon, bone.

[@DeSinc]

There is a paper that goes into depth on showing consuming at least 15g of collagen improves collagen synthesis and begins having an effect within 30 minutes of digestion surprisingly. Climbers use it for this reason. Anecdotally whey protein doesn't stop the stinging in my tendons, downing 30g of collagen was the only thing that outright stopped it and started making my tendons better again. Without it my fingers sting and I can't grab my mouse without lightning bolts of pain. With it I get about 6 hours of use out of my hand with no stinging or lightning bolts.

[@DeSinc]

I actually got the collagen to attempt to heal my dislocated shoulder faster and better (but research actually shows it just gets the bulk of the healing process started a bit faster, but ultimately the end result healing is about identical) and that's how I found out it helped my finger tendons. I can tell when I have and haven't had collagen just as easily as you can tell when you're sunburned or not. the difference is so comically stark that I got actually angry when I saw the claim in the thumbnail of this video

[@DeSinc]

one last point, the brand also seems to matter. I bought a cheaper brand that had higher leucine content and just generally superior amino acid profile, but paradoxically my tendons slowly got worse and worse and regressed back to putting me in an almost state of depression over whether I would ever be able to hold a mouse again for longer than 10 seconds a day without pain physically stopping me. I went back to the other brand and for some reason it just works better, can't tell you why. the other one really should have been superior but it just isn't. (I edited to remove the brand name because people might think I'm an advertising bot.)

[@presence5426]

@DeSinc I may have seen that paper, but don't recall. Can you get the author's name? Probably what you're experiencing with the big collagen dose is the novel anti-inflammatory effect, which would appear quickly.

[@DeSinc]

@@presence5426 I'm not sure I can find the same paper. This isn't the same one but another one called "The effects of collagen peptide supplementation on body composition, collagen synthesis, and recovery from joint injury and exercise: a systematic review" does conclude this which is the closest I could find: _* Exercise and vitamin C seemed to aid collagen synthesis. 15 g/day COL was more effective than 5 g/day COL in elevating collagen synthesis, hence 15 g/day may be a more effective dose. COL should be consumed prior (~ 60 min) to exercise to maximise collagen synthesis._ Many papers concluded similar things, that 15g of collagen seems to be roughly the point at which if consumed about 60 minutes before a workout then collagen synthesis resulting from the subsequent exercise is improved by something like ~280%, or some figure roughly around that number. I can't seem to find the one about increased tendon strength. It's entirely possible my claim of immediate effects of increased strength were just misremembered and not grounded in truth so I will remove them from my original comment since I can't find any study to back it up now.

[@DeSinc]

@@presence5426 My other comment got removed for some reason but it basically was just linking another study showing that vitamin C and collagen taken 1 hour before exercise improves collagen synthesis from said exercise significantly etc. I did find another study concluding tensile strength in rats was improved on collagen supplementation but it does not mention an 'immediate' benefit like I purported. (for that reason I removed that claim from my og comment, as it's possible I could be misremembering it.) I'll try put the study name in the next reply.

[@MikeHughesShooter]

As always great content. So I guess the question is if you take straight collagen versus collagen peptides is there a difference? Meaning do the Enterocytes function differently if you take straight, collagen, versa, peptide, collagen.

[@leighwalton8190]

I have/ had steroid induced osteoarthritis. I took good quality marine collagen at around 1g daily for about a year. I continued to get pains in my hip and thigh bones, notably at night. I switched to bovine collagen and the pains reduced and then stopped within about 10 days.

[@presence5426]

Interesting. Did you up the dose? 1g is pretty low. For OA, you might look into eggshell membrane & UC-II collagen. Both seem to get results for OA symptoms.

[@MohamedElKabbash]

i used collagen and in a matter. ofa few days, my joints felt better, over a few months, my hair and nails are waaaaay better. not sure if i see noticeable effects on my skin,.

[@DCGreenZone]

It supplies a ton (Grams) of glycine, and NAC supplies cysteine, that there's your GSH. I could be wrong, but I hope I''m not.

[@scottymackay1801]

Anecdotal but my knees felt better on it. Although I was never in real knee pain to start with, I noticed things were just smoother overall when on it. Stopped taking it and noticed knees weren't quite as smooth. Went back on and within 10 days could notice a difference. Didn't see any skin improvement, but my skin has always been decent.

[@Qaptaininsano]

This is what I’ve noticed as well.

[@eddiegrant58]

same

[@presence5426]

There are systematic reviews looking at collagen for joint health. It looks like it works.

[@austaneousc5802]

Even if collagen worked, it would take much longer than 10 days to experience any meaningful change in the connective tissue due to the slow rate cellular turnover.

[@presence5426]

@@austaneousc5802 Probably true. But many people report, and some studies show, a quick reduction in symptoms such as joint discomfort. Like within days. I'm thinking specifically of UC-II. Why? Because of anti-inflammatory effects: Tregs and cytokines.

[@crisfield4364]

All I know is that since I've stopped taking collagen peptides, my joints and ligaments are giving me discomfort and my hair is falling out. I'm going back on supplementation.

[@michaelrredford]

Thanks!

[@m4inline]

You are welcome.

[@intro...101]

Thanks so much for your take on this, Nick. I appreciate your insight into statistical nuance. It's super helpful to this student! I do add marine collagen and a bit of gelatin to my (warm-ish) cacao. I'm not sure it has much of an effect on my connective tissue because I also take L-Glutamine and when I take both my knee and ankle stop screaming at me. But I mostly take the collagen because I love what it does to my cacao. It's like drinking dessert. :) If I get a modest benefit to my body - cool!

[@demonfedor3748]

I've seen evidence for collagen on skin health and wound healing, but it was hydrolyzed collagen specifically. I am not sure if collagen is chopped up the same way in vitro and in vivo. But chopped up it is much more easily absorbed. Also some studies on individual specific peptides from collagen that may be responsible for the majority of effects but the confidence isn't too high.

[@MarcoBariani]

Another great dissection, Nic. One thing that always puzzles me is that no one ever discusses the types of collagen. When it comes to connective tissue the option that has been most often recommended, in my experience, is Type 2 collagen. Could it be a topic for a new video?

[@Physionic]

Great point. I should have touched on it.

[@larsnystrom6698]

I read a research article which found better effect on joints with a hydrolyzed collagen of type 2. I think they attributed that to di- and tri-peptides of the right kind. I myself regard hydrolyzed collagen as just a good way to get the right amino acids for building my own collagen. Mainly glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline. We have about 27 different kinds of collagen in our bodies, so hitting them all directly would be difficult.

[@presence5426]

The "types" of collagen refer to the animal tissue where they are found: Type 1 in skin, 2 in joints, etc. "Type", meaning the collagen matrix assembly, which is somewhat unique depending on the tissue. So there is a logic to taking type 2 collagen for our joint issues (e.g. UC-II or undenatured chicken sternum collagen). But also, there are strong similarities in all bodily collagens. This is all still being studied.

[@Edgycoo]

surely the curve for collagen synthesis would be much different to that of skeletal muscle. Muscle grows fast, goes fast too, fast 1-2hr peak. Connective tissue doesnt. I would imagine the response would be hard to detect

[@pjaworek6793]

Most of our senses come from the skin including many that only come from the skin. Therefore, any tiny improvement is felt drastically more than improvements anywhere else. I was feeling my initial 2-5g doses of collagen right away, years ago when I started. Now I take 10-15g and don't ever think of stopping.

[@Sinasi08]

It is also possible to mix collagen hydrolysate with whey isolate

[@StudioRV8]

Interestingly, there have been some studies showing collagen supplements having a beneficial impact on bone mineral density. Would be interesting to understand the mechanism.

[@presence5426]

Probably bioactive peptides acting upon the osteocyte.

[@peterz53]

But, if we have limited money, do we really need to spend it on collagen vs other things? Over 10 years that's a lot of cash. Does it really add much when stacked on top of exercise and a good diet?

[@habanero6332]

Make bone broth.

[@larryseibold4287]

I am looking forward to your follow up to see what if any cocktails work for connective tissue growth and repair.

[@mithrandir491]

You can increase collagen production by taking vitamin c, tryptophan, lysine and other amino acids.

[@rredding]

Ah, you were 5 hrs earlier!😊

[@miracoli16]

Glycine

[@m4inline]

Beef and peppers?

[@mrLoftladder]

as a near 60 yo I noticed that my skin was taking longer and longer to heal from minor cuts and abrasions, by the time I retired,65, some were taking a month or more to heal. On the recommendation of a friend, I started taking 15g of bovine collagen peptides a day mixed into plain yoghurt and now, some 4 years on, my minor cuts and abrasions are healed in days and several people have commented on my skin plumpness and lack of wrinkles for my age,70.

[@presence5426]

Nice. What you experienced is what research shows. But, most studies only go for weeks or maybe a few months. It would be very cool to track patients on collagen for years.

[@Jsarson1976]

I have been taking marine collagen and my joints and shoulder problems have felt much better along with other supplements.

[@georgemoller2206]

I like the thought process and cross referencing done here that brings out the potential and nuance.

[@thisbee66]

I took collagen for about 2 years. I love how it helped my skin and nails but developed excruciating bone pain. Is this my imagination or is there a connection? I asked Alexa about it and she said that there may be a connection.

[@rredding]

How about building collagen from l-lysine, l-proline, ascorbic acid, supported by bio available silica and a dash of manganese? Besides that, I take zinc/copper 25/2 mg daily. I do this because my blood vessels have been damaged by a very bad lifestyle before I knew better.... 🙃

[@miracoli16]

You absolutly should add glycine! It's the most important one!

[@rredding]

@@miracoli16 you are right!

[@joshfranklin1894]

Anxious to hear this, I've had tendon issues for the last 8 months and I've been pounding multiple brands of as many kinds collagen as I can and trying to strengthen the tendons with almost zero progress, still can't do full ROM arm lifts like curls without extreme pain

[@alexanderohanlon8825]

Do band work, for your bis and tris, 50 reps of press downs and 50 reps of curl... Just flood them with blood, do this 3 or more times per weak. Take collagen and vit c an hour before training to push it in also. Don't sweat going heavy.

[@joshfranklin1894]

@@alexanderohanlon8825 alright, I'll do that, thanks...I've been taking vitamin c and proline as well

[@garycobe3472]

Thank you for this! Hes tough to listen to. Love your content!

[@FAHRENHEIT-gj4ng]

I have both better physical and mental health along with nice strong full long hair that was dry, split and weak before I started my Collagen program.

[@bobmciver6437]

As far as I can remember from other interviews, Norton is fine with supplemental creatine ( a tripeptide) and we do have data on absorption of dipeptides like carnosine and anserine. So my question is about any research on collagen di and tri peptides and absorption into the bloodstream.

[@presence5426]

There's a fair amount. I'd post links but they always appear to get lost. It's not well known among scientists, but should be: Sato, Kenji 2017 The Presence of Food Derived Collagen Peptides in Body Structure and Biological Activity Shen & Matsui 2018 - Intestinal absorption of small peptides a review Shigemura et al 2017 Changes in composition and content of food-derived peptide in human blood after daily ingestion of Taga et al 2019 Improved in Vivo Tracking of Orally Administered Collagen Hydrolysate Using Stable Isotope Labeling Yazaki et al 2017 Oral Ingestion of Collagen Hydrolysate Leads to the Transportation of Highly Concentrated Gly-Pro-Hyp and Pro-Hyp in Blood and Skin

[@videoagogo1]

IIRC Norton went big on the use of BCAA - releasing a line of products - for muscle synthesis .. But now, current research has seen him backtracking on further promotion on its efficacy

[@presence5426]

There are several papers published. I replied with them but KZbin seems to scrub my comment.

[@juhamartikainen3050]

Thanks! I am taking collagen and it's interesting to hear what collages studies find.

[@betterlivingonabudget]

When it comes to collagen supplementation, I say we all need to base the affects on how we feel. I noticed an immediate difference in my joint paint/health after just a two weeks of drinking one scoop of collagen in my coffee every morning. (collagen peptides powder). I also noticed the same difference in reverse - two weeks without taking collagen in my coffee, the joint pain in my hands was noticeable once again. No other dietary or physical movement changes were involved.

[@trank68]

I can't remember the vlog, but I've heard that hot coffee destroys the benefits of collagen. Might've been Thomas Delauer.

[@betterlivingonabudget]

Thanks for passing that on. According to Google, it's probably okay: "Generally, collagen protein can be safely added to hot coffee, as brewing temperatures are usually below the point at which collagen proteins break down." Based on my own experience of noticeable affects from drinking it at least 4-5 days/week vs. not for a couple weeks, I'd say it's holding up fine in the coffee. But that's standard coffee-maker heat level. Probably not so for pour-over, old-fashioned percolator or campfire coffee.@@trank68

[@eldadyamin]

Hi, any update on this? I’m waiting for your follow up video 😅

[@the_primal_instinct]

I don't get his point. Saying collagen is useless because it's low on Leucine is like saying it's useless because it's low on *[insert any protein or vitamin]* . Is it it's job to be high on that? What if we pair it with something that *is* high on Leucine?

[@combiner008]

Is it true, proline plays a critical role in collagen synthesis? If so, why not supplement with proline instead?

[@larsnystrom6698]

Most of the amino acids in collagen are in such small amounts that I think the body can manage to syntisize them. But glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline are the three limiting amino acids for our collagen production. I supplement with 10 g hydrolyzed collagen mostly to get those, and some extra glycine because it's needed for so many other things too.

[@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans]

Hydroxyproline is the most important one. You either need proline and vitamin c for hydoxylation or supplement hydroxyproline directly via collagen. It appears diatoms contain hydroxyprolines as well, which could make diatomaceous earth a potential source as well (theoretically, as i couldn't find direct confirmation of DE containing it, just diatoms).

[@alansnyder8448]

I'm just an engineer who doesn't know biology, so these videos are always interesting to me. I've been trying to figure out how to use Collagen vs Whey Protein in my weekly routine, where I swim in an intense interval training mode 3-4 times per week (like HIIT exercise) and try to lift occasionally. My exercise is generally in the morning before 10 AM. I generally put whey protein in my water bottle, so have it before, during, and after exercise. For Collagen protein, I consider it as part of my last meal in the evening. So perhaps with Greek yogurt at 7 PM every few days. This is because I recall hearing that Collagen protein might help with sleep. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

[@presence5426]

Glycine is considered to have calming effects, being a inhibitory neurotransmitter. You might consider: -Whey, with carbs, post workout -Collagen in the AM, empty stomach. Before bed is also logical. -Glycine powder before bed. It tastes sweet, btw.

[@mav2knight]

Excellent as usual.....

[@mendelgrant2129]

This (awesome) video touches on muscle and connective tissue, but what about skin? Collagen supplementation has been confirmed by meta-analysis to improve skin elasticity and reduce wrinkles. To me that suggests some functional benefit of collagen supplements. I'm curious whether the collagen intake stimulates production of collagen, or whether the effect is more superficial.

[@Physionic]

Thanks. I have other videos for skin.

[@presence5426]

Over 7 meta-analyses/systematic reviews, all of which find skin improvement. It does appear that bioactive peptides from collagen signal skin cells to create more collagen & HA. This would account for the effects seen: fewer wrinkles, greater elasticity, more hydration.

[@BlahBlahPoop617]

I’ve been taking 20-25 g collagen powder (usually with vitamin C in food) for years. That, along with tretinoin and avoiding too much sun/using sun block seems to have helped. Ppl often compliment me on my skin despite being my mid thirties. The other day a woman said I looked 17. Not sure if I would go that far but I was quite taken back by that comment, lol.

[@ThePeterR66]

did the women who said you looked 17 asked you later in your discussion for money? I try to analyse the situation

[@BlahBlahPoop617]

@@ThePeterR66 Nope! We got into a conversation about skincare and she was asking me how to improve her skin. That’s when she commented on mine.

[@ThePeterR66]

Thank you. Thanks for your advise. I just started Collagen,: there is a little plus, I think@@BlahBlahPoop617

[@Alex-ky4cd]

So how do you know the collagen is helpful over the vitamin c, tretinoin, and avoiding sun?

[@BlahBlahPoop617]

@@Alex-ky4cd Good question. I wasn’t saying it was the main or only thing that contributed to my skin. All I meant is that those are the main things I do and my skin seems to have done well. Whatever percentage of what did the most work? Not sure. Not sure how much of at all it was the collagen. Based on what we do know, the sun accounts for majority of skin aging due to UVA rays especially. So I think based on the evidence I would say that 1) wearing sunscreen and 2) avoiding too much sun were the biggest factors in my skin looking good. Next to that, probably tretinoin since that has good evidence. Some evidence suggests weight lifting benefits the skin as well, even over cardio (though I still do plenty of cardio as well for cardiovascular health benefits!). So I can feel fairly confident those things probably at least accounted for half if not the majority of my skin benefits. The collagen I take (and I also take hyaluronic acid orally as that has *some evidence) are just extras I look at “just in case” the science which to come out points in a favorable direction. I also take the collagen for extra glycine in my diet incase any may theoretically have benefits too. It thickens up my shakes protein when I addd it to them which I like so I keep it in anyway. Maybe throw some red light in for the face as well. I think all people need to be concerned with their sun exposure and wearing good quality Sunscreen with good UVA protection first and foremost, more than anything else when it comes to skin aging. If there was only one thing it would be that for me. Also wearing good sun protective hats and glasses and clothing if need be. In my opinion everything is second. But the way I look at it is avoiding lots of sun and using sunscreen helps prevent too much collagen and facial fat from being broken down and then the tretinoin (and maybe the other things) can then work on “building up” and helping improve collagen synthesis. One study showed improved benefits when vitamin c was taken with collagen. It was either prior to or after a workout. But I usually take my vitamin c with it usually in food from because that’s when I usually eat vitamin c containing fruits with my protein/collagen shake. Not because I am trying to necessarily pair them together.

[@JohnHondo11997]

I’d love to hear you and Layne debate this. You should reach out, I know he’s always very open to challenging viewpoints. I appreciate this video (and Layne’s)

[@pauliewalnuts1024]

I still think collagens does not help that much for connective tissue but also see your point, it felt weird listening Layne talk about luceine on collagens at the first place if gotta be honest. Anyway good content, will check your opinions on other things also 👏

[@hitmusicworldwide]

Norton did not mention peptide forms, just Collagen in general? Just wondering if any studies have taken advantage of: Fluorescent proteins (FPs) when used as protein tags, for analysing these effects in cell biology and fluorescence microscopy to access absorption and utilization in mammalian protein synthesis.

[@presence5426]

A few studies used radioactive tags on collagen to track where the amino acids & peptides ended up in humans.

[@ZippyLikesZippers]

Collagen has a large amount of glycine in it. Im homozygous for mthfr mutation and supplementing with glycine takes the burden off my impaired methylation. Also glycine has been shown to improve relaxtion and i sleep a whole lot better when i take it before bed.

[@bill9989]

I'm a health nerd (I say "my health is my hobby"). But so much is "above my pay grade." I've recently started collagan peptides (and whey protein) to help my stubborn plantar faciitus. But what do I know? But here's my dilemma: I've recently started taking rapamycin (Mtor inhibitor) for aging. But from this video, I learned that leucine is an Mtor activator. Am I working against myself?

[@robertphillips93]

Poor body mechanics can translate into plantar fasciitis. Proximate cause is failure of the ankle to transition away from a posture induced by pronation to one induced by an arched foot. This should happen spontaneously during walking. In my case what was interfering with that motor capability was a tight hip flexor on one side, causing skeletal misalignment up and down. Not necessary to take extreme remedial steps -- just become aware of upper body and hip posture/tension while sitting. Done with sufficient regularity while sitting, you can be spared a lot of continuous agony when walking!

[@bill9989]

Thanks Robert but I didn't mean to start a discussion about plantar faciitus. That was just an aside. I guess my basic question is, should one avoid leucine if one is taking rapamycin?

[@presence5426]

You are engaged in an experimental protocol (rapamycin). It's true that protein, and especially aminos like leucine affect mTOR. A diet high in animal protein does seem to promote aging, or limit longevity. But this is not a given. It could be that you're biochemically "pushing back" on mTOR. As Van Halen sang, "I want the best of both worlds."

[@BenOgorek]

5:20 It would have been interesting to see what power level they reached. Was it 80% to detect a relatively small effect? For a continuous variable, 15 per group is not nothing. I think it’s most likely that there’s a difference from placebo but it’s pretty small. Also whey was in the lead so not a great look for collagen.

[@truthbetold6496]

Usually I agree with Layne on what he says but on collagen he is wrong, I had just finish my last collagen supplement and after seeing is video I decided to stop purchasing collagen peptide. I am 52 had prolotherapy and PRP to fix what a chiropractor made worse, I started taking collagen back in 2011 and though it had no effect on my body. Was i ever wrong, because the time i was off my joint pain came back, but also some wrinkles i did not have and thinning hair. I am back on collagen now and its been about 3 months and i see a huge difference mainly in my joint pain.

[@martinhodell8465]

whether it's real or placebo effect, I can 100% report that my joints feel better when taking collagen. I was skeptical & my wife had bought a bunch, so I gave it a try. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. I'm curious to understand the underlying mechanisms (could this possibly be a real effect?).

[@guamconservatoryofarts5551]

I’d be curious the age makeup of the test group. Perhaps collagen doesn’t work for younger people whose connective tissue is sound. But collagen might react differently for older people…????

[@Santa-ny1yp]

I don't notice my collagen working at all, but take it anyhow. I take it with my whey protein with added leucine shakes. After watching this, I may try and take some collagen with just leucine added.

[@presence5426]

Have you tried it on an empty stomach?

[@habanero6332]

Vitamin c

[@ThomasAT86]

Great stuff, thanks for sharing. Really happy I saw you on the "Nutrition Made Simple" podcast....another great person to follow and maybe hear some different nuances and views on various topics. Personally I started taking collagen for the supposed benefits for joints etc, but currently I take it along some EAAs just for protein source, since I don't tolerate whey and plant protein powders well and I really dislike beef protein.

[@presence5426]

Gil Carvahlo does a great job

[@swenic]

5:18 Graph states whey protein. Is it the same study as the one that did not use whey?

[@Physionic]

No

[@swenic]

Thought I had you there.. Glitch is over here somewhere.

[@ldarm]

I have noticed less tendon soreness after supplementing with a collogen powder. I mix 10g collogen with 50g whey.

[@KebapRocker]

Should i take collagen in addition to my usual 1g/lbs of protein or would it count as that?

[@lagianna100]

I already knew his argument was faulted, but you were capable of explaining it in a clear analytical manner

[@markocicic4495]

Suplements aside, what about consuming good old homemade collagen gel? It is made by cooking bones long enough to strip & extract the bone marrow. That's how you get collagen soup that turns into the gel. It's been used for generations but, since I'm not a scientist, idk how effective it is or would it be more effective if done on lower temperatures.

[@Holy.HannaH]

Am I correct in the understanding that hydrolized collagen is already broken into those smaller peptides and absorbed in the gut? Ive been experimenting with collagen. (Ive a degenerative mtDNA mutation) My thought was simply to help my body get what it needs without having to work so hard since the cells are producing enough energy and collagen is a triple helix that requires a LOT of resources to build & maintain. I noticed a myriad of results nearly immediately. First was my gut. 2nd my entire body felt less acidic. 3rd I had more energy. 4th, yep, receptors! The skin on my face is looking kinda funny if Im honest, the cells are healing & filling in at different rates, though I doubt anyone else would notice. Ive spent the last week or so sending folks pictures because I noticed all my dark burns that had been present for more than a decade are suddenly gone. Raised scar tissue from various injuries also seems to be greatly diminishing. I havent noticed much difference in my hair or nails yet, other than the emergence of the halfmoons/crescents on a few of my nail beds. EDIT: Also, my spine and/or skeletal muscles connected to it are doing much better! Before they couldnt even hold me up for very long, now Im dancing and basically what feels like "working out kinks" along my spine🤷‍♀️

[@presence5426]

Yes. The very "large" or long chains of amino acids that make up whole collagen are broken down by hydrolysis. And we get "hydrolyzed collagen peptides." A peptide is a protein fragment which can be from 2 to ~200 aminos long. So collagen peptide supps are loaded with these peptides. Your digestion completes the process: most of the peptides are broken up by gut enzymes into single AA's. But some short peptides remain. A small amount of these are absorbed into serum.

[@jondel3304]

Cool stuff man! Glad I found you! Layne is a godsend.

[@martyparsons9419]

Does Dr. LN's findings apply to Hydrolyzed Collagen Protein Peptides ("HCPP") as well? You noted that peptides would be the exception to his dissertation, and given the fact that others are also stating that collagen cannot be properly synthesized in the body unless they are hydrolyzed, HCPP seem to be the right type. As I understood other doctors, HCPPs are really only good against wrinkles in the skin and for ant--aging purposes only. I have not seen any credible literature connoting collagen as a replacement for protein or even protein powders for the improvement of skeletal-muscular hypertrophy. It would be interesting to get your take on HPCCs, if any at all?

[@edkruzel]

Anecdotal evidence is so often ignored, yet it is the basis for why we study what. Many of these studies, of course, look for a specific pathway and the result without side effects. To be extremely rudimentary, round pegs in round holes. However, a round peg will fit in a square hole, it's not perfect, and there are gaps, but it will block the way for the square peg. We see this with receptors often such as caffeine and andenosine receptors.

[@hairyelder5019]

Is taking bone broth and collagen redundant?

[@chuckleezodiac24]

no. more is better. the global Supplement Industry is projected to hit a market size of $240 Billion by 2028.

[@ClayHales]

My question and comment are what about whey protein and collagen protein taken together, and taking melatonin which presumably also denatures and gets "cut" still has an effect.

[@veronicamaine3813]

I did an experiment where the only thing I changed was my collage intake 3 months on, 3 months off - I cna say for sure my skin looked better ok collagen, particularly the skin on my hands which has always looked papery since I was a teen. So I think considering it’s harmless enough even if the science is not there I definitely see a benefit, is for me it’s a go.

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

3:23 Where's the control group? Should there be a non-PRO, non-EX group?

[@Physionic]

An excellent observation. Typically, you would want a control group, yes.

[@michaelransom5841]

I take collagen with whey.. they are incredibly complementary... 30 grams of whey concentrate along side roughly 7.5 grams of collagen creates a pretty ideal ratio of amino acids that give a large boost to a number of different amino acid dependent systems, including things like glutathione production.

[@whalhard]

I'm not yet sure of all it's effects on myself, but I do know that my bodyhair grows a lot faster when I take it. So I think it does something.

[@ericfallabel9201]

Really appreciated the technical content of this video. But WOW, the slowly rocking images and charts really made me motion sick. I've never gotten motion sick watching KZbin before

[@niallstallard5936]

Questions that I have. How much Collagen were the participants given? If our gut also consumes collagen, then if dose is low, little if any collagen will get into the blood. Were they also taking Vitamin C and/other co-factors? Were participants doing exercises that worked the connective tissues to stimulate the need for growth/repair?

[@presence5426]

If memory serves, in the study Norton is commenting on, a lot. Like 20g. Collagen dosing is a bit tricky. Studies have used anywhere from 1-30g. For the bioactive peptides, it appears that VERY small quantities make it into serum. So large doses may not be necessary. In studies looking at UC-II (undenatured chicken collagen) they use far less than 1g. But it still seems to work...

[@davidmeloche3563]

Whatever you do, don't tell Layne you disagree on social media. Otherwise, he'll cuss you out, mock you, challenge your intelligence and manhood, and then block you.

[@apothe6]

Is the answer to collagen effectiveness about how much glycine you get after you get enough overall protein?

[@blackhillsed4936]

I would love to hear a video on internal hyaluronic acid supplementation.

[@nickc7039]

Is bone broth considered the same or have the same compounds as collagen supplements?

[@Nando_lifts2021]

Wait but isn't the collegen everyone takes called collagen peptides. Is there a difference?

[@Nman92]

Excellent content

[@sergendestroy]

In regards with stimulating collagen protein synthesis. I remember noticing the effect size of most papers using collagen supplementation was pretty moderate, but then I looked at synthetic di and tri-peptides (mainly in the realm of skincare, which most publications are ofc biased) and the effect sizes were pretty large

[@presence5426]

Are you talking about topical peptides? Interesting. I'm not up on that.

[@sergendestroy]

@@presence5426 ugh, iirc most of them were intravenous. Can't remember well tbh. I'll try to find some of those papers and circle back