Dragon Ball fights used to be MUCH BETTER!

[@BlackKing505]

gotta love OG anime choreography

[@ijudgeanime]

@@BlackKing505 For sure man

[@almessasorrow4950]

As a animator I'm sorry to spoil this for you. Old anime just threw a prep cut( character prepares) Action cut(Character does action) Then a reaction cut(Character reacts to action) This was Inspired/ stolen from old martial arts films. Jackie Chan and Bruce lee did the same for their movies. The peak was when people realized they could put a in-between between the frames and That frames needed no continuity since the in between will just make it seem like the camera is moving anyways. (Check the scenes in the video and you'll see what I mean) It's a extremely easy way of animating despite it being perfect, so sadly it's looked down upon. People keep complicating things and for some reason right now Japan prefers a more plastic look for animation and complicated animation.

[@almessasorrow4950]

Edit: If you want I could post a few fight scenes I have saved for prep strike reaction. Don't really mind doing it for free since it's kinda fun to do.

[@randomguy1401]

​@almessasorrow4950 why not bro

[@sewasify]

One thing I noticed on my recent rewatch of super hero is that there were more slams and grapples than usual, which was great. I'd definitely like to see more of that in future DB fights

[@ijudgeanime]

@@sewasify Yeah super hero did pretty damn good on that front!

[@StevenJones851]

The Broly Movie and Superhero are pretty great in terms of fights a lot too

[@andrecmone]

Exactly I loved how Gohan used a wrestling move on Gamma 1 it felt refreshing

[@missyummy1040]

What i personally hate about Dragon Ball Super fights is 1: It feels like generics punches and kicks, i might be over exaggerating, but sometimes it like they're just reusing animation clips for almost every fight. 2: Theres not enough battle damage, i wanna see the characters bleed, i wanna see them suffer the consequences of the fight, i want to see real injuries they have to overcome, of course I'm not asking for gore, but give e more than simple scratches and bruises. And lastly 3: The animation is just to clean, this might be personal preferences, but i think it would be better if Dragon Ball Super kept the same animation style.

[@ijudgeanime]

@@missyummy1040 Point 3 is something i also heavily agree with. I prefer the grungy artstyle so much more

[@theflashgordon193]

Agree the problem is toriyama is just too good at fighting choreography. That my problems with toyotaro In the manga , I don't find him really good at fight. He is trying is best but it's not enough imo

[@anthonypowell4240]

Anime super art style was mic ngl it was way to smooth and clean and didn't feel as rough which looks better for a fight

[@richborn6700]

About the Tournament of Power I appreciated the characters looking less plastic, but yes the hits looked like there was no force behind them and they'd reuse fight animation like GT

[@wight4991]

it's also not just that, but i hate when they try to excuse a simple punchout with goku going up one transformation a time and beerus even saying "why the hell is he just playing with (enter opponent here) again!" and then some background filler character going "you don't understand lord beerus! goku is a """martial Artist""" and that's just the way we do stuff like this"

[@LanceUppercut]

The drop off in fight-choreography definitely is inarguable. Even in the manga, those old classics were so clean and obvious as to what was happening. Each panel was so well thought out. The saiyan saga Goku v Vegeta fight might be the "prettiest" fight in all of manga history.

[@krsmanjovanovic8607]

I think problem with modern ki attacks is more about presentation, attacks became so powerful they are casualy erasing galaxies but our human brain is literaly not built to understand stuff on such scale like how after a thousand or so numbers just become that, imaginary concept you cant tie to reality without fancy maths, so it is nearly imposible to trully convey how truly devastating those attacks are, back in DBZ there were still moments where you could actualy see and fully grasp the destruction their ki blasts cause like whole mountains exploding, entire city being reduced to crater by Napa etc. Because it was on much smaller scale that we could still grasp

[@mathematics557]

This definitely makes sense

[@richborn6700]

I always felt like they scaled too quickly. Vegeta being able to destroy a planet in the Saiyan saga at 18,000? Planetary destruction seems like it she be a SSJ3 level goal.

[@yozarian86]

Yeah. One reason why we can’t comprehend though is those attack never actually destroy galaxies. If a missed or deflected attack was shown to blow up a planet, we’d actually feel like those super powerful ki attacks were strong

[@thronosstudios]

But that could easily be remedied if they add some camera angles from the planet's surface as it's being destroyed, instead of seeing it from afar only. The sense of scale is what throws us off, so then make it relatable by shrinking the POV of the scale even when the catastrophe is of universal magnitude

[@geminiguy6032]

Damn, if I was Piccolo, I would never fight again after that absolute thrashing. You would catch me on the next bus to grad school.

[@StevenJones851]

Piccolo a real one for continuing fighting

[@MagmaMKII]

Just try thinking of when was the last time that Dragon Ball featured a "smart" fight. You know, a fight that wasn't just a power contest but rather the characters having to think in order to defeat an opponent. Closest I can think of is the Z Fighters vs. Vegeta at the end of the Saiyan arc. By the time Goku arrives at the scene the Z Fighters were already down to just four people (Goku himself, Gohan, Kuririn and Yajirobe) and they were basically faced with an opponent that was way out of their league. This was also before Super Saiyan transformations were introduced, so they couldn't just bullshit a new transformation out of their asses to save the day.

[@ijudgeanime]

@@MagmaMKII Honestly the closest thing in super is prob the tournament of power but even that is less "smart"

[@chrislopez1224]

I'd say most fights that Gohan and Krillin got in on namek were moments where they had to use smarts to survive

[@TheBobafett12367]

Hit vs Dyspo

[@theflashgordon193]

To be honest they try to do that a lot on super.

[@flyingchairguy2221]

Goku vs Frieza pre SSJ, Goku was litterally pulling out all the tricks in his book to even have a chance against frieza.

[@surgeonsergio6839]

This was a perfect video summarizing every point that's terrible about the newer style of fighting in db animation. Though I'd go harder and say that the new fights are indeed bad instead of okay-ish.

[@Jamlord2061]

i still remember the fight in og dragon ball that was shortly followed by goku saying i thought marriage was food (or something to that extent)

[@yozarian86]

Yeah. Goku vs chichi. Chichi wasn’t tell him why she was mad and said she’d only tell him if he won. He did obviously lol. And she screamed that when they were kids he agreed to get married. He asks his friends what marriage is and when they sort of answer him he tells chichi he didn’t know what he was agreeing to. He thought it was some kind of good. But now that he knew what it was he asked her properly. It’s a great scene

[@wander7812]

Saying the fights in OG Db is bad, is the equivalent of saying the fights in EVERY OTHER mainstream anime is bad. Because they literally take from DB OG, as well as glimpses of DBZ

[@maxchen3491]

That not equivalent at all, yeah maybe in terms of backlash from fans but in terms of objectivity no.

[@wander7812]

@@maxchen3491 yes its in terms of backlash from fans

[@enumaelish9193]

Dbz fans always act like Dragonball invented anime, and it's always hilarious.

[@wander7812]

@@enumaelish9193 Me when I state that a anime that, inspired Modern anime, inspired Modern anime (I'm acting like they invented the whole medium):

[@maxchen3491]

@@enumaelish9193 I do Agree that as long as animation existed Anime would exist whether dbz existed or not. but the tropes as we know it were popularized by Dragon Ball without a doubt, And without Dragon ball anime as we know it may be different.(It doesn't Excuse Dragon Ball from criticism)

[@pinecactus9672]

no its not the natural progression it was just lazy writing. ki is incredibly versatile and you can see at the beginning of dbz with all the different techniques like kayoken, deatrocto disc and special beam cannon how weaker adversaries can overtake stronger ones with good creative ki attacks. the writes just got lazier as the show progressed.

[@burgezdoestuff8578]

The hundreds of Death Balls variations in Super needs to be studied

[@pinecactus9672]

@@burgezdoestuff8578 haven't watched it and not planning on it, not a fan of super.

[@dwimplepeen]

Yeah the most creative thing to me still is goku shooting a kamehameha with his feet and using it to propel him, it could for sure be used better

[@pinecactus9672]

@@dwimplepeen he also did the first bending Kamehameha , it curved if i remember correctly.

[@dwimplepeen]

@@pinecactus9672 Yes! To follow the enemy! Very creative

[@Markeveli237]

I think dragon ball superhero striked a balance between OG dragon ball and super. The fight scenes had more marshal art than jst power ups and ki blasts. As an animator i definitely understand why super would follow its route but i think superhero was a way to tell the fans they would do better fight choreographies and i hope daima doesn't disappoint

[@YOSHAAEDITSSECONDACCOUNT]

Old dragon ball fights were more based on the characters skill, and the fighting choreography, in DBZ/DBS they mainly spam techniques and trade occasional blows

[@ijudgeanime]

Yep thats my take exactly haha

[@Swagioo_42]

@@ijudgeanime nice take

[@veryangryboi4128]

Z definitely had better choreography, look at Goku vs Cell. In terms of an overall fight yeah OG DB is better.

[@Swagioo_42]

@@veryangryboi4128 you're right

[@jasonfernandez8235]

Goku vs Piccolo Jr. Is one of my favourite fights in OG Db.

[@ijudgeanime]

Yeah its sooooo good

[@watermelon5521]

FINALLY someone who shares my views! Oldies are goldies

[@chadpredatorofchildren35]

My top 2 fights in the entire series are goku vs cell and goku Vs Piccolo Jr. Both have a special place in my heart, not just in dragon ball, but in anime period.

[@DaniG._.German]

5:59 Baccano referenced this😊 You learn something new everyday.

[@CharlesKudrow]

To me, it all comes down to animation. Studio cockpit’s portion in cell vs goku is PEAK dragon ball fighting animation. Its hasn’t been matched since.

[@gorofujita5767]

Not only that, but old fights have more power, speed and technique involved in them. The more you advance in DBZ after its high point in power (arguably either Namek or somewhere midway through the Cell saga) the *visually weaker* characters get. Energy blasts get smaller and smaller, and the characters start feeling like they weight 10 tons, moving much slower and tiring out much faster. It's an extreme visual inconsistency. Without the characters yapping and forcing the viewer to believe them in regards to "this is the fastest thing I have ever seen!!!" all you see on the screen is characters consistently getting weaker and slower.

[@mathematics557]

Factual bro, just look how huge the Kaioken times 4 Kamehameha is compared to SSB Kamehameha major difference, SSB Kamehameha looks so skinny and bland in comparison. The choreography was alot better in the saiyan and namek arcs. A good example is comparing Vegeta vs Recoome, Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz to the TOP in super big difference.

[@jayb8934]

The fights in original DB and even early Z used to be martial arts fights, then it just became about powering up, transformations, big blasts, and explosions.

[@jakesimpson3373]

Goku vs Krillin in the 22nd world tournament is my favorite fight in the series, it just has such a nice vibe to it that not a lot of other fights have

[@Meninx87]

I have no words to describe how much i agree with you. As much as i love DBZ i gotta admit with time, it totally lost that feeling of fascinating but "grounded" (although still pretty superhuman) martial arts. These days dragon ball is just a contest on who makes the shiniest transformation or the biggest light ball.

[@madextreme2682]

Your point about the artstyle being grungy , it's actually cuz Dragon Ball was shot on 16 mm film which gives it a grainy texture , They did this later on in Super where the director added a grain filter (still looked flat due to the colors and character models) , which in my eyes makes Dragon Ball feel more alive ,retro, energetic and less flat , and even at that time the animation was good especially when there's Masaki Sato and Naotoshi Shida who had very smooth animations even in OG Dragon Ball. Also agree with everything in your video , finally Goku vs Piccolo Jr gets the love it deserves I consider it the 2nd best DB fight right behind the legendary Z-Fighters vs Vegeta fight.

[@sarahdion6805]

The decline in regular martial arts in dragon ball in my opinion has to be when Gohan fought perfect cell in my opinion due to all of the kamehamehas

[@timbomb374]

A lot of older anime has a real feeling of grounded weight to it. My theory is that animators back then used to look at real life to see how things moved. But then, newer animators looked at older animation to see how things moved, then that keeps repeating until a lot of that realism is lost.

[@Ghostly_scarf]

As a gen z who watched OG dragon ball, Yea the fights were so well done! OG Dragon Ball was so underrated!

[@dwimplepeen]

So relieved im not the only one thinking this, the choreography has really died down. The 23rd world tournament and saiyan saga are my favorites of all time. I do not think it will get better

[@ade1174]

Toriyama was the master of fight choreography. Those OG DB tournament fights are so damn good. I think the fights against the Saiyans and some fights on Namek in DBZ had this too, but there are too many ki blasts in recent fights for my liking. I think the final fight against Jiren in the ToP, and the Broly and Super Hero movies are steps in the right direction, though.

[@magnumopus8124]

Bro! THANK YOU!!! I been saying this for years. Ya, dragon ball wasn't as action packed as z, but dragon ball does have some of the best fights in the DB series. Kid goku vs tien is one of my top favorite fights from dragon ball PERIOD. Illnsay this too, the earlier dragon ball z movies had some top NOTCH choreography. Tree of might, the world strongest....check them out, you will NOT be disappointed.

[@ikeillue8385]

This technically is a tangent point, which may not even be an in universe reason (though it still works) for why they have been moving away from martial arts focused combat, these characters are at levels of martial arts where they are surpassing gods with literally millions of years of martial arts expertise. Essentially, early in the series, that slight edge in skill could make or break a battle, but even the "poor" martial artists in current Dragon Ball are at a level that is so ridiculously, and ludicrously high, that it makes those kinds of gaps basically irrelevant. There is a significant difference when the gap in skill makes the difference between a really good martial artist and a master martial artist, as compared to a gap in skill that makes the difference between a ridiculous god transcending martial artist, and a better ridiculous god transcending martial artist. Not sure if that made sense, but those are my 2 sense.

[@ijudgeanime]

@@ikeillue8385 Yeah thats an interesting way to describe it but I think I get it

[@Slara236]

Always thought the same thing. Fights felt like there was more at risk, and the fights were nasty and bloody. I miss that

[@Sorain1]

It's funny, but the single brightest idea I've seen to fix the problems with modern (late Z up to now) fights was an idea FighterZ came up with. Everyone shoved down to the same level of power. Suddenly you simply can't overwhelm someone, no matter what transformation you have. Heck, if told 'you get to write a filler DBS arc, wat do?' I'd go a step further. Set up a series of fights where _no one_ can use ki blasts of any kind. Ki disruption field (or whatever one likes to call it.) suddenly only close combat matters and the animation team gets to step it up. I'm talking full on 'Learn the Wolf Fang fist, because it's a great cqc technique' or 'whip out the old power pole', focus more on grapples and holds, have Vegeta do his usual 'smash my face against the wall until it breaks' and realize that while ki blasts are disrupted, it has to travel a little first, so he does the blast spam at point blank to effectively increase his reach. Have Goku think back and realize that he's used the recoil of Kamehameha before for mobility, and the field doesn't prevent that. Get Tien in there with some crane school precision strikes, get some people to learn some arts from Roshi to use. The point would be that suddenly there's a fresh dynamic that can harken back to those pre-Z fights and the more detailed clashes of the films. Blast/Beam spam is what's eaten away at a lot of the fighting, so pull it from the equation for a while. Edit: Heck, have someone realize 'wait, magic still works in the field' in time to pick some of it up. Ring out someone via Mafuba even.

[@NerdGohan]

new gen animation and anime period just cannot compete with the effort that's put into og anime

[@arimboualem1967]

Nah, the older animation and new animation is not close, I mean if dragon with the same older animation release now that not have a comparison by other popular anime

[@HerosTheme]

The World Tournament just hits different.

[@primesonic4459]

Goku vs Cell is my favourite choreographed fight

[@crisstoff89]

One aspect of the older animation is that the model moves along with the background instead of skipping frames like in modern ones , they also come at a certain angle and keeping the focus on them rather then the focus being at the edge of the frame. It also makes use of close ups of certain parts of the body to show you where it hits then pans out to full again .

[@crestofhonor2349]

The animation techniques change. Many animators have changed their styles. Look at Naotoshi Shida's work on OG DB and DBZ vs his work on Super. He's changed a lot. Much of that is really just down to how modern animators do their work

[@crisstoff89]

@@crestofhonor2349 Some of the tehniques were lost , not everything new is better . You can look at old Tom and Jerry cartoons and for their era (epecially the 1945 episodes ) how smooth they movement is and still cant be done today with computers without looking like its missing some frames in bewteen , you can go even to Fleischer's Supeman where they made use of rotoscopy to make movement more natural like how they would brace or stumble etc . You can also look in movies where CGI has problems with physics ,they just cant figure out the weight and how it should look when a model lands or jumps without looking "fake" or cartoonish. Its not just animation but in every industry ,something was lost , like the certain hospitals of how famous doctors used to put cut limbs togheter by hand , something that alot of doctors today cant even with the aid of modern technology. I dont miss CDs or tapes but certain things were better

[@DaniG._.German]

No transformations, less power beams, are what made DB fights special. Hopefully, after the Granola arc, Toyotaro will focus more on what made DB fights great. Since it seems that Goku and Vegeta have achieved their final forms. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku has a UI form for all of his transformation, from Ssj1 to Blue.

[@Spiral-Mark]

Ngl, I agree and strongly understand this take

[@ijudgeanime]

@@Spiral-Mark Yeah i dint think its a particularly uncommon take to have

[@thronosstudios]

Well duh, of course the nature of the fights changed since now they are far more powerful and faster, and technique no longer plays a role in how a fight is won since everybody is essentially on the same boat. If you wanna watch more fights like that go watch old kung-fu movies. I actually love that the progression of power levels changed the way fights play out. It makes the power level dynamic more believable and grounded. That said, I do believe it IS possible to choreograph fights a la DB (like Goku in the tournament of power when he ran out of energy but was able to keep up with SSJ2 Kale and Caulifla due to his martial arts expertise) but I mean, we all know it's no longer the focus. That was strictly a DB thing where it was based of off a Chinese folktale and they practiced Chinese kung-fu mostly. So, I dunno... they can be clever about it going forward, but I don't think most of the fanbase will care

[@Burgerzaza]

Im ngl, the creation of power levels and how desperately the community clings to them is by a wide margin my least favorite thing about z. Dont get me wrong, i love the whole series, even GT has its charm and good stuff. But back in dragonball, the fights were about technical skill more than brute strength. For instance, when goku lost to jackie chun, it was because Roshi outsmarted goku and used his height advantage. Characters get stronger to make their techniques more effective. Goku beat piccolo daimao because he had technique, grit, and luck. Because piccolo was stronger then him, and goku's first fight with him is probably the second worst beating Goku has ever taken, only topped by saiyan saga vegeta. But in Z, ever since they estsblished power level, fights became about brute force. You literally cannot hurt someone unless your number is higher than theirs, which i think is ridiculous. The saiyan saga is my favorite arc of z for several reasons, chief among them: its the last arc that felt like db. This problem started in the saiyan saga, but you get the feeling that goku needs the power up because him and vegeta are comparable in technical ability, so the difference had to be made up in strength. Then in the namek saga, the z fighters cant even hurt frieza because his number higher. Its my least favorite thing in z and super(bc gt, to their credit, attempted a return to form). Fights should be decided by technical skill and determination to win with a bit of luck more than brute strength. Also worth noting like you said: we love when characters throw hands and Db was full of that. But as time went on, both GT and Super fell victim to 'ki blast syndrome' where the fights are more light show than fisticuffs, and i think thats to their destriment. The best moments always seem to be throwing hands, and then using ki blasts sparingly for maximum effect

[@EclipseHedgehog]

i've got another one, yamcha vs saibamen still honestly holds up as a fight, its quick, short, and flashier looking (better than tien vs saibamen in terms of entertaining choreography), it has a scene showing piccolo teaching gohan (and the viewer) how speed works. and before the meme it was a serious moment. i was a wake up call that this wasn't like the previous tournaments. no rules, if you die? thats it. bulma was crushed, she was remembering all the fond times from the og db when collecting his body (even though it didn't matter since they went to north kai) i miss the emotion too.

[@yozarian86]

I grew up on Dbz. Didn’t know the original existed for at least 6 or 7 years. Once I watched it though I realized it was the best. And it still is today. I might’ve worded a few things differently, but I’ve gone in countless rants saying exactly what this video does lol. One of my favorite fights in Super is Vegeta vs Cabba. The outcome was never in question. We all knew Vegeta would win. But it actually looked like martial arts mattered again! Give me back the gritty dragonball. Where we saw martial art posed and attacks and blood. The tournament fights in Super are great. I got excited and loved watching them. But they do lack impact.

[@okNiko]

I'll do you one better, the fights from the early DBZ movies (World's Strongest, Dead Zone, Tree of Might) had easily some of the best choreography in Z & Super (Not counting Super Broly cuz that's just another level!)

[@Jay_Walker92]

Idk that Goku vs hit was fire better than the dragon stuff in my opinion....made me wanna watch the entire fight again 😂

[@Thixico]

This is so off topic but the point of the ki based attacks being more prevalent over basic attacks felt like you were describing elden ring PvP vs dark souls pvp.

[@aight4494]

a big part of the attacks feeling less impactful in super is the fact that goku could've had the beating of his life and still only have scratches and torn clothing in Z you can tell from what saga goku is based on his injuries after a fight

[@dungton6066]

I really love Buu-Cell Saga fight. SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu, SSJ2 Goku vs Vegeta and Goku vs Cell might be the best fight I seen

[@Okamikurainya]

OGDB is dancing, DBZ+ is more often the shuffle.

[@ThePerfectMenace]

Bro thank you so much for making this video. Maodern dragon ball fights are just hard punches and ki blast spamming. I miss the strategy and corgraphy of OG db. Piccolo jr vs goku is easily my top 3 fight right next o Goku vs cell and goku bs vegeta saiyan saga. I miss the gore, the action, the intense moments, the epic music, all of it. I hope daima gives us something like that.

[@MEDZFactor]

0:58 So, there are others out there like me……

[@leoil01]

People are probably going to hate me for this but if they treated ki like haki or Chakra where you could move it to certain body parts to augment defense or vice versa for attack then maybe we could have more martial arts in fights instead of blast and beams

[@blankblank6214]

Facts and the only goods fights during z was with piccolo in the cell saga

[@LuarIbriqi-qf4fh]

There are more good fights than just Piccolo vs someone in the cell saga. Goku vs Perfect Cell. Goku vs Vegeta sayain saga. Future Gohan vs the future androids. Future Trunks after the cell saga vs the Future androids. Super Sayian 3 Goku vs Buu. Mystic Gohan vs Evil Buu. Vegito vs Super Evil Buu. Goku vs Frieza on Namek. Future Trunks vs Frieza and King Cold. Goku vs the Ginuy Force. Vegeta Super Sayian vs Android 19. Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz. Gohan SSJ 2 vs Perfect Cell. Future Trunks vs The Future Imperfect Cell after the cell saga. And probably more then I missed...

[@timbomb374]

Man, even in dragonball Tien was huge. How did he become so skinny in super

[@borquise]

I pray Toyotaro showcases actual martial arts in the DBS future fights

[@ginnungagapabyss5639]

Agreed the hand-to-hand was great. Ever since Jojo part 3 anime did fights in a fast-paced motion.

[@janmalawski4339]

Problem of modern fights is that they are more "hype" than actual fight. OG were proper martial arts fights.

[@kneeggah3752]

Daima gonna be peak

[@BlueEyedVibeChecker]

People dunk on GT a lot, but it really did a lot better than Super. The character assassination of Goku in Super, going from someone who fights to protect people in Z and GT, to someone who wants to fight strong enemies even if it means endangering the entire multiverse in Super was far worse than the ending of GT. The fights took a hit in Super until Jiren came along too, Dragon Ball GT retained far more of that Z choreography or whatever you'd want to call it when it came to fight scenes too. (I don't dislike Super; Future Trunks/Goku Black arc was peak, but it has to be said Super downgraded a lot of things.)

[@windows98alpha35]

I definitely dislike the fights in Super and in modern DB in general. They don't have much choreography. Compared to OG DB, I can count on one hand how many fights in modern DB that had actual choreography. Once: Goku and Vegeta vs Whis in RoF (the movie specifically even though the movie was hot ass) Twice: UI -Omen-/MUI Goku vs Jiren. (And that was the only portion that had choreography, the fights of Goku SSB vs Jiren was LITERALLY REUSED ANIMATIONS FROM THE LIMIT X SURVIVOR OPENING LMAOOOOOOOOO And even when you do have those two fights in the fighting pool compare that to EVERY fight in OG DB which had choreography that took IRL martial arts and incorporated them into the fantasy setting of Dragon Ball seamlessly. Modern DB doesn't do that often. It's on off occasion they just miraculously got good animators working on that episode that week. People can say I'm wrong or call foul on that take all they want to but if that wasn't the case videos like this wouldn't exist. The fact of the matter is, OG DB/Early-Mid DBZ had the best fights. That's just not neogtiable. That's an objective fact and these truths are self evident. Watch Kid Goku vs Yamcha, Kid Goku vs. Tao Pai-Pai, Kid Goku vs. Kid Krillin/Jackie Chun, Kid Goku vs DKP Old/Young, Goku vs Raditz/Vegeta, Gohan/Krillin/Vegeta vs Ginyu Force, Ginyu vs Goku, Piccolo vs. Freiza/17. All these fights are leaps and bounds better than anything Super has to offer. Super will never be better than what came before. Hell I'd even go as far as to say GT had better fights than most of the fights in Super. Goku vs. Baby/Super 17 being my favorite examples.

[@Nersius]

I am always shocked with how Z is such an international cultural phenomenon, yet OG remains rather absent from the conversation. Though I think the Android/Cell Saga was a high point in the franchise, several Dragon Ball arcs rival it, with the rest of Z and Super trailing far behind. Between Raditz's entrance to MVP 17, the number of times a fight wasn't resolved by lazy 'numbah bigga' logic can be counted on one hand, so disappointing.

[@mathematics557]

I agree with everything that was said in this video, everytime I go back and tune in to the DB Franchise, I tend to watch early DBZ, DB, and the early DBZ movies. The artstyle, animation, and fight choreography was vastly superior back then as opposed to what we had in super. Back then the characters were drawn with more depth to them, the muscles were alot more chiseled and exaggerated, the fighters actually looked powerful and imposing. I'll take kaioken Goku, the oozaru, and the golden super saiyan forms over SSB Goku any day of the week. Those forms look way cooler and had way better looking destructive power than blue does, especially the immensely powerful looking Oozaru, now that's what you call a powerful and terrifying looking form, not some bland dinky blue haired form. And don't even get me started on how bland and basic the ki attacks look in super. The Kamehameha in super is nothing compared to how badass and powerful the kaioken times 4 Kamehameha looked when he fought vegeta. Oh and most of all the fights in the early sagas looked absolutely vicious and brutal compared to the light hearted soft super. DBZ and DB fights were far superior. Z Fighters vs Nappa, Vegeta vs Recoome, Goku vs Frieza, Piccolo vs Android 17, Goku vs Nappa and Vegeta just look how destructive and intense those fights look compared to super big difference. PS: I much prefer the artstyle of DB and early DBZ movies like Dead Zone, World's strongest, and Tree of Might. Luv the artstyle and how fluid the animation is in those movies. It also has a much more raw, rough and grittier look than the soft, clean, and bland looking super.

[@ckmxmoneysworld719]

I love the ogs but you can tell you aint go back and watch the tournament of power before you made this video cus that alone blows this outa the water

[@ckmxmoneysworld719]

Or goku versus beerus😭

[@Don-fw3nv]

​@@ckmxmoneysworld719dude that was ass in comparison to anything here

[@Don-fw3nv]

Tournament of Power was terribly choreographed in comparison to OG DB tournament fights. Just a fact. But you might think the Tournament of Power was good if all you like are oversaturated colors and light shows, which in that case, all ppwer to ya

[@ckmxmoneysworld719]

@@Don-fw3nv lol if you say so 🤣 you havent watched it recently either

[@Don-fw3nv]

@@ckmxmoneysworld719 I have. You haven't watched it recently lol

[@Ziyon_]

High powered characters fighting can be mixed with energy ki blast and great martial arts fighting..it can be done..and be awesome..Martial arts fighting is a must..i almost let Dragon Ball super go..but i like Goku character 😊

[@Flipitmixit]

Kid Goku vs Kid Krillin is one of the best fights in the franchise

[@DenshaOtoko2]

The Raditz, to Majin Buu fights were the best.

[@johncastanya6125]

thats why i always thought worlds srrongest and dead zone were the best movies

[@isaacnikolic5895]

DBZ and Super fights are good for 3 minutes out of the 10 or 12 minutes of the fight. DB fights are good for at least half the fight but are shorter. It'd quality over quantity.

[@NTRisforthinkers]

Based fate deen OST in the background

[@ijudgeanime]

@@NTRisforthinkers Im one of the few weirdos who really like the deen stay night adaptation lol

[@divineshrek3307]

Yeah, even in Z, glorious fights like Cell vs Goku or Frieza vs Goku were FULL of repeated frames in more sections than DB.

[@Darkwing4L]

We can blame the lack of choreography in Super since there’s no manga to go off of.

[@richborn6700]

That was them being stupid. The anime was weekly but the manga was monthly so the show outpaced it in weeks. Idk why they also did the Zamasu and TOP arcs differently. It's all a mess compared to the adherence Z had to the Dragonball manga

[@AzulSora]

...Guess I'm a boomer too, because I agree wholeheartedly lmao

[@CoolJamz887]

Some people mostly grew up watching dragon ball Z first because it aired on TV first

[@emperorkaido8539]

yes old fights are on another level

[@Shazam1998]

Heavy disagree. I think theres a lot of nostalgia going on when comparing DBZ to DBS fights. DBZ had some standout fights but it also had plenty of fights that were pretty dull. Its not different from Super in the slightest.

[@Don-fw3nv]

As someone relatively new to the franchise. I noticed the difference instantly. DBS fights are just a lot less visually interesting and opt for saturated colors over any substance. Not to mention characters are just super ugly for some reason. No clue why they're so skinny now

[@Chrisezo]

This conversation is something I've been trying to have with people for years, where I feel that newer Dragon Ball has just gotten too ridiculous in the power scaling, and as a result they have basically put actual skill to the bench, since after Z everyone is either an overpowered alien, or some kind of prodigy that doesn't require martial arts training, because they are naturally super tough to fight, and then mid battle they actually learn and get even stronger, which just doesn't make sense for the most part, since a lot of characters have been able to learn techniques that takes years to master, in just a few minutes after seeing the technique in action, which I know its just lazy writing and not an actual thing, because no matter how talented and elite Vegeta was, he should not have learned Ki control during his fight on Earth, or actually learned to use the destructo disc after seeing Krillin use it once against Nappa, since they should be things that one would need to understand after much training and practice, but everyone that came after Vegeta was basically doing the same BS since even Frieza used a version of the destructo disc after seeing Krillin cut his tail, and then Cell even managed to learn Instant Transmission easily, which should not have been possible and even Buu learned a bunch of things through fighting too, and Kid Buu was on a whole other level when he actually learned Kai Kai from Kibito Kai after seeing it once, and as previously stated these all have been cases of lazy writing, because the author wanted to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, without having to explain anything, but as a result just made the story and results less interesting since after Z everyone was basically a prodigy, and then Super dropped the ball by making Beerus the first actual bad guy, since as a god of destruction nobody should have been on his level, which should have made all threats after him basically irrelevant, and it didn't help that Super did a bunch of retcons too, which just made things even worse. Like don't get me wrong if it sounded like I disliked Super or something, I do like many moments and some of the fights were cool, and I do appreciate the Tournament of Power, because its when Roshi basically revived Goku's spirit as a martial artist, since he saw that Goku was relying too much on his newfound powers and transformations, rather than using his experience in the martial arts, which makes sense as to why Goku felt so vulnerable during Super's run up to that point, and why he didn't dodge the laser that Frieza's minion used to try and take him down, or even how he got hurt from regular bullets, because his senses had basically dulled, since each fight he had been in from Z and onward, made him switch focus from martial arts into raw power, as he thought that martial arts were holding him back since they didn't help much against Frieza in Namek and stuff. Its very unlikely that Dragon Ball will ever go back to being a series about martial arts, which is why its lucky that we still have OG Dragon Ball to go back to, for those of us that actually cared about that kind of stuff.

[@crestofhonor2349]

Well with Daima it looks like they're returning to those kind of fights

[@Ninjago-News]

Og Db animation was so good

[@crestofhonor2349]

Somewhat

[@Don-fw3nv]

​@@crestofhonor2349 Better than super

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@Don-fw3nv not even close. Only the first half

[@Don-fw3nv]

@@crestofhonor2349 wrong. Nothing in Super is evenly remotely close to as well animated Goku vs Tien 2. Oversaturated colors and lights =/= well-animated

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@Don-fw3nv that is just plainly wrong. Watching through both series recently already confirms this. So much fantastic work in the latter half, especially from the TOP surpasses pretty much anything in any dragon ball series. Animators like Yuya Takahashi, Ryo Onishi, and Naotoshi Shida put out work far better than anything in OG DB. Go look at the fight between Goku and Krillin and Super. That fight looks better Dothan Tenshinhan vs Goku. Super isn’t just over saturated colors and lights. If that’s all it is to you, you aren’t watching the series. DBS has plenty of very well animated moments and I can go get more

[@girlbuu9403]

Mid Dragon Ball to mid Dragon Ball Z is the best martial arts action wise. Before that it was more comical and after it was mostly whose laser was bigger. If someone calls you old and boring for this then don't give them the curtesy warning shot to get off your lawn when you pull out the shotgun.

[@girlbuu9403]

"One of my favorite fights is Yamcha vs Kami" ... a sadist I see.

[@sketos_d]

I dont think anyone would say Goku vs Jiren or Vegeta vs. Toppo was objectively at the level of the old fights. The hype and atmosphere was there. But not the choreography

[@jxg2273]

This is why dragon ball daima is a thing

[@luisfernan-s7731]

7:16 literally contratucting your point. Ive see many of these debates of modern db vs old db. But what i found after all this time is that mostly classic db is relied on the martial arts, the style, the lack of techniques, and... Well... Nostalgia. What? ... Aw cmoe on, it has always been that! Lets not forget that db had always been spamming things since the 80-90's. If we break down (yes db fans, we have to use our eyes this time fr) most of the anime fights (excluning movies) then every series has their equal amounts of spamming and good choreography by the definition you gave in the video.

[@coolskeleton5966]

Db and dbz consistant issue is that almost every attack takes too long to land it does have its good moments but they happen less often and dbs is just too fast it makes fighting feel like the sonic x animation a good example for the right medium of dragon ball fighting animation is LEGEND - A DRAGON BALL TALE

[@crestofhonor2349]

Much of that just has to do with how they were produced. Dragon Ball and Z were following the manga and they couldn't get a head of the manga so they'd drag things out in any way they could. This often lead to holding certain poses and other things to not only save on time but to also extend fights too

[@coolskeleton5966]

@@crestofhonor2349 did super have the same problem?

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@coolskeleton5966 No since it didn't have a manga to follow. Both the Manga and the Anime received notes from Toriyama on how he wanted the general arc to go and they executed it how they saw fit. Although Toriyama did have more input into the manga as he would look over Toyotaro's work and show him how to improve it. This is why Super doesn't have pacing issues unlike OG DB and DBZ. GT was the same way with it's pacing not being bad as it had no source material to follow

[@alphetti4348]

Honestly I love og dragon ball fights cause it goes into the nitty gritty of the techniques and has more hand to hand combat Not to say I don’t love the Z fights

[@ijudgeanime]

Yeah exactly. I by no means hate super, gt or ,. But the fights were better in db

[@hudson2228]

Those outlined fight clips hurt my eyes man

[@ijudgeanime]

Blame youtube for not allowing me to show them in any other way 😂 had to reupload this one like 13 times

[@hudson2228]

@@ijudgeanime hahaha I understand, you do what you gotta do

[@hudson2228]

@@ijudgeanime also its the 23rd world martial arts tournament not the 24th

[@ijudgeanime]

@@hudson2228 Bro I must have been high on crack cocaine whilst reading the script...

[@DBZClears]

W

[@FutureGohanlasthope]

We should get a morden OG dragon ball remake

[@kaizerapa1814]

Did not feel the punches in super!!

[@AragazBraila]

Alright unc time for bed💤🛏

[@ijudgeanime]

@@AragazBraila 🧓

[@Opp611]

I'MA BOOMER TOO

[@crestofhonor2349]

Much of the difference does come down to Super's terrible production in it's first half. I'd really suggest learning about it as it caused even some of the best animators on DBZ like Naoki Tate put out bad work. The show was rushed to market and had major issues thanks to that. Anime take a lot of time to produce and Super had virtually none early on. Overbooked animators often working back to back on episodes, little time for scripting, and redoing the movies which were entirely unnecessary. They should have skipped those and took that time to finish the show under preproduction. DBZ didn't always look good but at least it wasn't rushed. They had their top studios like Studio Seigasha, Studio Junio, and Studio Cockpit who often put out OG DB and DBZ's best work. I also love the focus on martial arts as well and it is a slow decent into more and more ki blasts. To be fair though this was an anime only thing as the manga had much less ki blast spamming. A good example is with Vegeta who was not known to ki blast spam in the Manga, that was more Goku vs in the anime.

[@JoesMama-ci3yl]

Yeah, I liked it when they would do 40 backflips in a row just to back up 10 feet.

[@kombokoroma8533]

Anime hitter hard does days 🥹

[@Ziyon_]

Right..martial arts is why im here…but Goku character is why i stayed…give me more or all martial art style fighting..indeed..Beerus fight battle was not for me..😊

[@blingbling496scholes7]

I just started the video and yup... I don't watch super. Not only because I don't like much the fights, also I don't like the style. Dragon ball was never overly brutal, but they toned even the bit what was there down. Also the fights felt more physical, while those leave me with... Nothing. I don't feel anything watching this, while even still I get excited watching og DragonBall or Z in that matter.

[@ijudgeanime]

@@blingbling496scholes7 Yeah the artstyle change was really a big hit imo. I still very much enjoyed super but the way db and z depicted the battle damage was so much cooler

[@The_batman_mma]

Og Dragon Ball def had better fight choreography but your comparison is simply not fair to Super The Universe 6 tournament arc was almost filler to revitalize the series nothing too serious at all while Goku versus Piccolo was the climax of OG Dragon Ball a more fair comparison would be like Kid Goku vs Mercenary Tao which was still a better looking fight but not by much

[@Yutingen]

And so do I (I am 15)

[@TheSuperGoober]

Just fyi..... It's the 23rd tournament Lol 💀

[@ijudgeanime]

@@TheSuperGoober Oh lmao did I accidentally call it the 22nd 😭

[@MedardoRodriguez-xo8qg]

piccolo was 3 and goku 18

[@dragonforce2582]

GT has good old style fights as well

[@ijudgeanime]

Yeah gt did surprisingly well on that front

[@explo3605]

When? The only segment of a fight that actually has any impact is the beginning of SSJ4 Goku vs Baby. Otherwise it's the characters flying aimlessly, spamming Ki Blasts (typically with reused animation), or it'll feel unnaturally "turn-based".

[@yao.aboagye]

lol I mean Super is stiff, that’s just about it

[@dawid3517]

I feel like super was largely dealt a bad hand in that aspect. The series started with a production schedule that was so overwhelmingly short and stupid that it would make Soviet gulags seem like light work, and since actual fights are harder to animate than hyper-fast one-frame punches and special attacks, the animators included the latter. And when the animators eventually managed to make actual decent looking episodes during the Future Trunks arc, the story threw at them a God in Merged Zamasu, for whom it's fitting to spend almost all of his time in the air, above the mortals attacking them with his divine energy and not dirtying his hands. Until eventually he becomes half corrupted and stays on the ground/punches his enemies again, but it's very short, and he fights a guy with a sword so he can't just punch a blade. And finally, in the ToP arc, we got such an overwhelmingly huge number of fights and characters with weird Gimmicks, that the animators once again had to go the path of least resistance for most of the fights. That's why I love the fights in the past 6 years of Super, where the story and crunch time don't hinder the animators and Toyotarou, and we see awesome fight scenes like the ones in Broly, that beautifully mix aerial martial arts and support them with Ki attacks or the ones in superhero, where the scene of Gamma one wrecking SSJ Gohan while standing in place with the camera rotating around them, is one of my favorite scenes in all of DB, and the fight between Giant Piccolo and Cell Max really seems like a Kaiju fight perfectly utilizing the feeling of their giant weight. Or even in the manga where all the fights actually seem like Toyotarou had fun with them, mixing various close combat and Ki techniques or utilizing the environment of the fights. I'm sure Daima will also bring us many amazing fights in its unique style.