Drawabox Lesson 1: Estimating Rotation

[@Uncomfortable]

Heads up - we still have a coupon with NMA, but the one in the video no longer works. You can use the new code DRAWABOX for 25% off your first billing cycle on either the Library or Library+ plans. For the most current coupon/terms, check the banner at the top of the drawabox.com website.

[@marcoadriel]

I’ve had to watch this video countless times, but I’m slowing picking up what you’re putting down, so thank you for that 👍I know you just uploaded this video a few months ago, but I think it needs a revision down the line. Might I suggest adding signifiers to this video (like you’ve done in past videos) for whenever you reference a particular plane or edge - that would help IMMENSELY with comprehension. I’m having trouble matching your words/language with what is happening on the page as I try to conceptualize the relationship between a box’s edges and its corresponding vanishing points as it rotates in 3D space. I’ll speak for myself - it gets mentally taxing very quickly. To anyone having trouble understanding: Try watching this video once every day, but only focus on one part of the video until it starts to make sense - then move on to the next part . That’s what got me over the hump. Thanks for all you do, Uncomfortable.

[@Catastrophe699]

Never give up

[@mathieumichiels9580]

This is the sentence that made my head spin for days…. “There is the top and bottom of the side plane, which converge towards a vp that is allready towards the centrr of our composition, and gradually sliding to the left towards infinity, and there’s the top and bottom of the back plane, which converge towards the right, like the first two edges we looked at.”

[@Zslone2]

Thank you Uncomfortable, just finishing one of these rotated boxes and looking back at the whole page again. It definitely makes the exercise more doable. That feeling of “I did it! It looks turned!” Even if the box isn’t good, the feeling is there.

[@Uncomfortable]

That's great. Congrats on pushing through and getting it done!

[@imaginationland474]

This gets so confusing starting around 3:55. I feel like it would be helpful to give more visual aids for the vanishing points like you did in the first half. :)

[@nicholasmuiseYT]

Some recommendations for this video if it ever gets an update. When discussing the different edges toward the end of the video and how they converge, shift to parallel etc as the box is being rotated, try to not rotate the page that you’re drawing on when ghosting your points. That broke my brain trying to reason about the terms I was hearing and connect that visually with what I was seeing. I’d also recommend using some circular highlights or color highlighting on the points and edges when you are calling out specific ones (back, front, side etc.). Had to give this one a few watches to begin somewhat grasping the rules of what is going on for the edges and points during rotations. Thanks for putting together this series!

[@Gossamer24]

Watching this video after the other video has been SO helpful! I really appreciate the videos, they help a lot in understanding the assignments. :)

[@Notester82]

Aaaaaaaaaaaa, for whatever reason during the Rough Perspective (boxes) homework, I hadn't thought about adding new points to correct/revise your previous placements, my mind just went "oh, there's a better place where this point could've gone but I guess I'm locked in here". I do see how points are less committal than lines though (as mentioned at 3:33), and will try to keep this in mind for the Rotated Boxes (boxes) homework and everything else moving forward that uses the Ghosting Method, thanks for making that point! ...Pun unintended!

[@pushps1070]

Literally the mistake I made as well, but thanks to your comment I feel less stupid about it. XD

[@sotl7749]

I'm still kinda confused

[@jmartine]

I wish there was actual instruction on drawing the corner boxes. Also, I'm confused about how many boxes we're supposed to be drawing total, and how many are supposed to be in each "row". It's hard to tell by just looking at the finished product. Is it (from top to bottom) 3, 5, 5, 5, 3, for a total of 18? Is it 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, for a total of 25? It's really hard for me to tell from looking at it what lines are parts of new boxes, and which are just existing parts of other boxes.

[@spacekid5720]

It's 25 fill in the verticals and horizontals and then then fit in 4 Boxes between/for each of those 4 those spaces, also my approach with the corner boxes was using the plane below and the plane/face beside it for reference and if you use the connecting lines with a points method correctly you'll have 1,2,3,4,5,6 points with 2 missing. so for the front top right face of the box where a point should be missing if all referencing is done correctly, so this point should be a bit slanted because of the rotation that's happening. so it should be below the top left front face point and slanted more towards the inside of the bottom right front face point and same should be done for the back face. so for the two missing points back and front the line should be tilted downwards from the top and inwards from the bottom hope that helps if not just do something you'll make sense of it I'm sure. Could be a bit of errors in this paragraph but I'm too busy to go through so I hope you get what I'm saying

[@sulynncho9299]

0:23 - because the box is rotated, parallel edges meet at a different vanishing point from the center square. however, we can ignore this because the distance between the center plane and the parallel plane is too small

[@SnackIas]

I really like the course so far. However, it does feel really off to be told to only draw from the shoulder so many times and then see you drawing most of your exercise lines from the wrist.

[@Uncomfortable]

Understandable - but at the end of the day, performing on videos makes me nervous, and being nervous causes me to make mistakes. I could continually rerecord until I have a perfect take, but our limited resources doesn't provide for much time, so that would severely impact the timeline on getting the updated video material out. There are always going to be better instructors out there who aren't under those resource limitations, or who are better at performing under pressure, but as long as I can get the information across, I feel I've done the job to the best of my ability.

[@SnackIas]

@@Uncomfortable That is absolutely fair. Perfection is overrated and I might have overreacted a bit. It is also a great way of showing people that everyone makes mistakes ^^

[@RH-nk7eo]

On the contrary I find it reassuring to see that not everyone has to follow 100% perfection all of the time

[@ScienceDiscoverer]

The rule of "only draw from shoulder ALWAYS" is wrong, anyway. You should only draw from the shoulder lines that are longer than certain length, while drawing very short lines is always better to do with the wrist.

[@averageraiden9900]

0:14 shouldn't the red vanishing be left of the green one? as the box rotates to the right

[@kevinriley3759]

This exercise is really making me think about stepping away from the course. I just cant for some reason wrap my head around it like the other exercises. I submitted my lesson one homework for official reciew and was assigned a revision for this exercise. Now im rewatching the videos and rereading the material to try again ans im just still not getting it. I just dint know how I can do it again any better than last time... Any tips would be super appreciated.

[@Uncomfortable]

Students aren't expected to nail this exercise, as mentioned in the introduction to the video preceding this. So it's entirely normal for a student to struggle with these concepts, because they rely on aspects of what this course as a whole is designed to address (in the sense that you're on lesson 1 of 7 lessons that will take months to get through). It only makes sense that this exercise will be rough, and that it will be difficult. That said, I've glanced at your Lesson 1 work, and I can see that you were assigned a revision on this exercise, but it wasn't based on your understanding of rotation - what our TA, Rob, noticed is that your work suggested that you weren't applying the instructions as directly as you could be, so he wanted to give you an opportunity to give it another shot. The main issue comes down to the fact that you end up relying on guesswork in cases where it's not necessary. Instead of allowing yourself to rely on neighbouring edges where they are available (in other words, maintaining tight, consistent gaps between neighbouring boxes), which you were doing correctly when handling the main axes, you drew the later boxes with large and arbitrary gaps, forcing you to guess at every aspect of their construction. You can read more about this issue here: drawabox.com/lesson/1/21/guessing Ultimately this video isn't actually one that addresses the main issue you were running into, as it speaks to how we can make estimations when we have to. Your issue is that you're relying on estimation when you *don't* have to. You'll want to go back to the video that speaks to the exercise as a whole, as it talks about where we can rely on neighbouring elements as hints instead. Do your best just to follow those instructions, step by step. Don't overthink it, or fall into the trap of feeling you need to be doing more. I believe that's what happened here - the problem at hand gives this very overwhelming, daunting impression, which causes us to panic. Panic in turn keeps us from focusing on the information and instructions directly in front of us, because it makes us feel like we need to be thinking a dozen steps ahead. Relax. Breathe. And remember that above all else, Rob asked you to redo the exercise because your first attempt was not complete. That's the primary issue he's concerned with for now, and so simply doing your best - whatever that is, regardless of what mistakes may be made - whilst making the choice to do the exercise in its entirety is all that is being asked of you.

[@kevinriley3759]

@@Uncomfortable thanks so much for replying Uncomfortable. I think I just posted this out of a moment of frustration. I stepped away for a bit and came back to both videos for this exercise and I think something finally clicked for me on the sliding vanishing points. All I had to do was watch it one more time I guess haha I was more just venting honestly, I never expected you'd see it and respond and now I'm honestly a bit embarrassed. I knew I wasn't just going to step away and quit either, it's just whatbi felt in the moment. I just submitted my revision actually. Like I said to the TA, although it's frustrating, I am actually glad he assigned me this revision because now I'm actually understanding the concepts much better than before. It truly is a great course you guys have and it's helped me immensely this far! I really hope I can move on to the 250 box challenge next! Thanks again and sorry for bellyaching! Haha

[@Uncomfortable]

​@kevinriley3759 it's a lot more common that you'd think - the rotated boxes exercise really does something to students' psyches - although for that same reason, I think once you've experienced that frustration and then overcome it, you can later use that experience as a touchstone to help you get through similarly daunting and baffling struggles in the future. I glanced at your revisions - you'll still be getting your reply from Rob, but I wanted to mention that the difference is night and day. Great work.

[@alexholloway6113]

This makes more sense now compared to the original video, I think I can do it without just copying what you were doing, :) I had issues trying to understand the estimation of how much with the video so im here is my understanding in the hopes that it is accurate and helps others because rewording can be helpful: the top and bottom lines of the box (the big square and the little square) will change angle more than if it were rotated further. The edges connecting the front and back squares will change angle less then what the next rotation would be. Is this correct

[@Uncomfortable]

I think what you're saying is correct, though your wording is a little unclear. As we shift from the middle box to the one to the right, we've got two main sets of edges that are changing. Those going from back to front, and those going from side to side. Those going from back to front are already converging a lot, and as the box turns their convergence will reduce, slowly at first, and more as the box rotates further. Those going from side to side aren't converging at all, and so as the box rotates they'll start to converge more - quickly at first, but this change will slow down as the box rotates further. This then continues as we move to the next position to the right (which we didn't draw in this video) - the lines that were going back-to-front will reduce convergence, but more than the previous box did, and the lines that were going side-to-side will increase convergence, but more slowly than the previous box did.

[@quinintheclouds]

@@Uncomfortable "Those going from side to side aren't converging at all, and so as the box rotates they'll start to converge more" huh?

[@quinintheclouds]

ohhh nvm

[@spearchucker765]

i just got back into drawabox tyy

[@mohqusbassaleh9675]

i genuinely for the life of me cant understand whats going on in 3:55

[@Cupzyk]

me too! Im so sad because I have already watch the 2 videos like 5 times for 2 days and it doesnt make sense to me. How did he know how to draw the back vertex??

[@mohqusbassaleh9675]

@@Cupzyk i still dont know but i just tried it anyways and got an alright result, but yeah i still genuinely have zero clue

[@Cupzyk]

@mohqusbassaleh9675 same here! from what I understand, every time the cube rotates, it means that one vanishing point is getting closer to the center of the axis, and the other is moving away. If it helps, first look at the face of the cube that is in front, and then look at the one in the back, keeping in mind that we are making a cube and all the faces are the same :)

[@mohqusbassaleh9675]

@@Cupzyk but we arent making a cube though? its been said multiple times that we are making boxes so the faces dont have to be all the same

[@Tytoalba5619]

I gave this exercise a go, but I am very confused about the location of the vanishing points for the corner boxes. Any help/guidance for those? Do all vanishing points lie on the quadrant cross ? This is definitely a spike in difficulty compared to the rough perspective exercise 😮

[@Uncomfortable]

It's a spike in difficulty because the purpose of this exercise is to introduce students to a problem that they aren't actually equipped to deal with just yet. It's a problem that we dive into more fully in the box challenge. By introducing it here though, we're arming students with a sense of direction for what they learn later. So, don't worry about being confused about it right now. Focus on applying the instructions to the best of your ability, and then move on. That said, no the VPs don't all sit in the center of the cross - but in this exercise we aren't really concerned with where they specifically fall. In fact, more generally in this course, we steadily move away from focusing on the vanishing points themselves, shifting more towards paying attention to the convergences between the lines we're drawing (which is the main focus of the box challenge).

[@Tytoalba5619]

@Uncomfortable thank you very much for explaining and answering so torough!

[@Ralstro]

I'd somehow missed this video when I completed this challenge. I'm currently on box 11 of the 250 challenge and it is going better than I had hoped. This is a really well thought out course. I can already draw but I am doing it because I can't get to grips with perspective. I can draw imaginary characters but can't place them in an imagined environment. I feel confident that this will be the answer to my problems. My query is about step one, the face adjacent to the first box. The way it is drawn has no rotation as far as I can tell. Surely the line closest to us (Top of the box face) should be further away from the first box. If the rotated box was viewed from the side its top edge would be longer than the bottom edge. I'm probably wrong but I did find it puzzling. Thanks for all that you have achieved and made available here. You are a great man.

[@Uncomfortable]

I'm not quite following the question you're explaining based on your description alone. It may be better for you to join our discord chat server (you'll find the link in the video description) and ask over in our #lesson1 channel.

[@althelaya]

sorry but im very confused of what your talking about thecar analogy and other things :(

[@Uncomfortable]

The car analogy isn't really important, so I wouldn't get hung up on it, but if you're having trouble understanding the rest, you can head over to our discord chat server. There are plenty of other students there who are going through the same material, who may be able to help clarify things for you. The link to the discord server should be in the video description.

[@althelaya]

Thanks!

[@mathieumichiels9580]

Shouldnt the back plane be smaler in the box on the right then in the original one? Since these top and bottom edges are converging to a vannishing point that is sliding to the left? In 3d space the backplane is further from us now, so it should shrink, right?

[@Uncomfortable]

There's actually two ways in which things shift in perspective - their overall scale gets smaller, but proportionally they get wider in one dimension. We discuss this in regards to cylinders in the ellipses section, but for this exercise it's actually more distracting to focus on the individual faces and how they change (especially due to the fact that we're not working with cubes, boxes that are necessarily the same size from neighbour to neighbour (that right side box appears to be longer than the center one). Instead, focus on the corners themselves, and the edges that connect them, and how they change. At its core, this exercise is about making use of the neighbouring information (when two edges are close together, the not-entirely-accurate-but-close-enough choice to consider them as being parallel on the page), and then how to look at the changes in the corner positions for the areas we have to estimate without such neighbours to rely upon. It is a complicated and difficult exercise - but go through the instructions and absorb what you can, without getting too hung up on what stumps you. Then, following the steps to the best of your ability, do the exercise, and get feedback on it in our community. The expectation is that most students will struggle a great deal with this exercise, but that in having gone through those struggles, will better understand the problems that we will be targeting going forward. The expectation is not for students to be able to knock this exercise out of the park right now, it's simply a tool to help contextualize what we do next.

[@leonliptak]

im cooked

[@RH-nk7eo]

If I understand this correctly, the top and bottom edge should converge dramatically as they are moving from infinity (parallel) towards the center. The side edges should diverge more slowly as they are moving from the center to the left infinity. Is that correct? Your drawing shows however a more dramatic increase in the divergence than the convergence.

[@mysterymemerman]

Somehow this made sense, not as bad as I thought the second time around.

[@dobi26jo37]

hi uncomfortable! drawabox is great and reaching uptil here feels great (for the 2nd time). I still mess up alot but at least the journey path is becoming clearer. I have a Question - i'm trying to draw boxes in relationship to each other (stacked on each other, leaning, drawing them on a plane, hinging them etc.) but I'm struggling a lot and keep making mistakes but its hard to figure out why exactly. is there someone / some class / resource I can refer to for help? sorry if this is not relevant I just don't know who to turn to for help

[@Uncomfortable]

Our discord chat server ( discord.gg/drawabox ) is a great place to ask questions and get additional assistance with things. That said, what you're describing is definitely something that relies on the same spatial reasoning skills - that is, the understanding of how forms sit in 3D space and how they relate to one another within that space - this course as a whole is designed to help students develop - that is, all the way from Lesson 1 to Lesson 7. So don't worry if these are things you struggle with right now, as that is entirely normal.

[@dobi26jo37]

@@Uncomfortable thank you so much for your answer! this makes me feel less anxious. I think for me the hardest thing to overcome as an artist is impatience. i will join the discord, ty again :>

[@spacekid5720]

Currently brainstorming the corner boxes I'll drop my explanation when i get it

[@erenyaeger2320]

I have a question, a long time ago you mentioned that you might want to do a video about drawing for people who literally have no visual imagination (aphantasia), is such a video ever going to come out?

[@Uncomfortable]

That depends. At some point I did talk about one day making a video for this channel that discussed aphantasia - that's not something I'll have time to get into until we're at least much further along with our very slow moving overhaul. I'm eager to be able to talk about more general topics like motivation, aphantasia, dealing with frustration and such (and doing so would probably result in an increase in our ability to generate revenue to fund the services we provide), but it doesn't seem right to do that until we've made a lot more progress with the overhaul, which is going to be a lot more meaningful to the community. But that would be the *second* aphantasia video - the first was one I made for the Proko youtube channel back in 2021, which you'll find here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gojKiYauraqdndU

[@lohengramm7798]

Discord link has expired. I wanna join

[@Uncomfortable]

That link ( discord.gg/drawabox ) is a vanity url and never expires. There may be something else going on that is keeping the link from working. One possibility is that you may already be hitting the discord server limit. Alternatively, what may help is hitting the + at the bottom of the server list in discord itself to add a server, then pasting the link in when prompted.

[@lohengramm7798]

@@Uncomfortable tried all that out. After that I went to discord web and it said something like couldn't join the server. I just made a new account and it worked! So all good 👍 Probably had something to do with settings. Discord hates me anyways.

[@TheCampi]

I don’t think the concept you are trying to explain is that confusing, it’s honestly your way of explaining it. There are almost no visual aid’s and combined with overuse of words and corners and edges and vanishing point while you are drawing that doesn’t fit what you are talking about, suddenly using an anlogy you have to wrap your head around, changing mic and adding text wich is distracting, it’s just a mess. And then you dont even draw the other boxes wich are the most difficult. It honestly made me mad, but then again it’s free content and i’am gratefull for it, but it still is frustrating.

[@Josh-ne6br]

its by design so that you buy the course :(

[@Evie_Ruby]

4:23 - may explain skewness

[@Inimaris]

Well now I understood that slightly better, but that's still very confusing...

[@Karina-winsmore]

I dont understand anything.

[@Catastrophe699]

🔥

[@sulynncho9299]

2:03

[@sulynncho9299]

5:18

[@Karina-winsmore]

I still dont understand anything.

[@Uncomfortable]

Honestly, that's not really a problem. This exercise serves to introduce students to a problem that we address in the box challenge. Exposing students to it now provides context that serves as a compass, helping direct what they learn later on, helping to keep things targeted. It's entirely okay not to understand the theory behind what we're doing - the theory serves only to get you to the exercise, and for this one in particular, you're really not expected to be able to do it correctly and match the example. Do your best to follow the instructions carefully and patiently, taking your time, but don't get hung up on how it turns out.

[@dumpsta-divrr365]

what is bro talking about