Drinker's Chasers - Art vs THE MESSAGE

The return of Russell T Davies to Doctor Who got us wondering how much of his comeback was motivated by the desire to tell good stories, and how much of it was just a platform for The Message.

[@ramblingRJ]

Why are people rewriting history and acting like Russell T. Davis wasn't always like this? This guy was attacking fans online before it was common for the industry to attack the fans. Almost 20 years ago, whenever fans complained about badly written episodes ( Like "Love & Monsters") he lashed out, calling us "Internet mosquitoes" and "fake fans". He's overrated as a writer, and he was at the forefront of abusing the fans.

[@chasehedges6775]

Sounds EXACTLY LIKE Dave Filoni. He was always a mediocre Star Wars writer.

[@2012sonora]

It’s like the love George Lucas gets now, when people were genuinely furious with him for a long, long time. RTD was always woke. I think a lot of people who enjoyed New Who were probably still left of center ten years ago, and didn’t see what was going on because they agreed with it. But just because you get off the crazy train doesn’t mean everyone does. RTD started in the same place as a lot of other people. He’s just going further with it.

[@GiovanniAlckmimRusso]

​@@2012sonorathe same can be said about Star Trek. I saw Drinker saying how Star Trek wasn't woke, but I've been watching The Next Generation and there are some stuff that was already pandering to these guys. Like Capitalism being bad, frontiers on Earth doesn't exist, eating organic meat is bad, guys wearing female officers dress.

[@southerner66]

RTD has been very vocal about gender ideology these past few years, so, no, it's not a surprise. No one had heard of any of this in 2005 when he rebooted the series. Perhaps it has to do with what he's allowed to get away with by the BBC.

[@mikavirtanen7029]

@@GiovanniAlckmimRusso That was mostly during the first two seasons of TNG, when already senile Roddenberry and his hatchet lawyer Leonard Maizhlish went full retard with "progressivenes" and terrorized every writer to comply with their "rules". This may seem cruel to say but thankfully Roddenberry was out because of health reasons by season 3, and Rick Berman could hire Michael Piller to save the ship.

[@tylergoodman3560]

True art: Stands the test of time for generations to come. The message: Irrelevant after a few days and inspires no one. 🎉

[@chasehedges6775]

THIS💯👍💯💯

[@chasehedges6775]

Absolutely true.

[@archstanton9073]

But think of all the lives it saves! 🤣

[@blairreese3534]

This is 100% spot on. It's because it is propaganda.

[@leonardodavi2695]

True art: brings people together. The message: divides them.

[@Lemon_Inspector]

"He used to want to give children hope, now he just wants to scare them." Ah, a surefire way to improve the world!

[@sirloin8745]

‘We have to hire people within this specific group’ Isn’t that racism - not hiring the person best able to fill the role, but discriminating against an something they can’t control; an actor’s race, creed or colour?

[@sirloin8745]

Where does this logically end? You have to represent every country on the Planet to ensure ‘inclusivity’? 🤦‍♂️

[@TotallyNotSnowman]

Hypocrisy, thy name is Hollywood.

[@dirtyfunkymonkey]

It's discrimination for sure

[@katthunter6561]

If it's against white people, then no! This is the clown world we live in.

[@Gianfranco_69]

I was on 'the road to Hell' the other day, i am sure it passed thru 'proportional representation'

[@davidgustafik7968]

After all of the previous franchises "improved", I don't really feel anything concerning what Doctor Who has become at this point. That's the saddest possible result, I can't even bring myself to care for something that influenced me greatly in the past. I think this is what it would be like during a zombie apocalypse - when it starts and you see your neighbor, old Mrs Smith turned into a brainless zombie, shuffling around, it hurts, it's a tragedy beyond compare, you lament the loss. By the second year, you just see your old childhood friend zombying around and just roll your eyes before getting out the crowbar.

[@greenhat8978]

Out of all the zombie Apocalypse movies I've ever seen, You may have just described the most depressing one....😢

[@Calebgoblin]

gonna be real with you chief that hurted

[@soulfirez4270]

Yeah I think you have nailed it.

[@cyberleaderandy1]

Agree totally. I had intended to watch these specials but was busy last Saturday and didn't see it. Having seen the reviews online I now never will as it depressed me totally just seeing the clips and the garbage propoganda that rtd had written and the bbc allowed to be broadcast.

[@monke12354]

That's how I felt with Star Wars. Just a deep sense of apathy where I even found it hard to care for the older stuff in the franchise I used to love so much.

[@garym6315]

Well done to Despot for mentioning the diversity QUOTA. HeelvsBabyface often calls this a diversity policy but we need to be clear that this is an actual quota for how many disabled/gay/black/trans people NEED to be in positions behind and in front of the cameras. And as we all know, when do you ever get a manager who strives to JUST fulfil the quota and leave it at that? Every manager wants to show off by showing they can go well beyond the figure that is given to them.

[@robbo_96]

Yeah that's the real issue for me, they hire crew members based on race or gender rather than merit or capability. Having a largely ethnic cast or a trans person in a role doesn't diminish the product's quality in of itself, but having a production/scriptwriting team that lack the quality or skills to tell a good story or one that uses nuance to convey the message does

[@jdenney]

Coming now from the makers of The Message™ is: The Quota™

[@nojuanatall3281]

The diversity hires barely lasted two days at my last job. Meanwhile I was there for a year and a half. That is a lot of training pay wasted.

[@lancebaylis3169]

I remember the 'policy', on it's introduction to the public, used one of the BBC's most popular programmes -- The Great British Bakeoff -- as a cover photo, as it was a format where they knew this kind of positive discrimination could be applied easily under the banner of "diversity & representation". It is not coincidental that the choice of contestants ever since has always felt like a checklist, nor that the "winners" have also been skewed towards marginalised groups. See, this is the problem with enacting policies like this. It makes it harder, as an audience, to buy into the authencity of what we're watching. Because it all feels very much like everything we see on screen is even more manufactured than it already was.

[@michaelplowman8674]

"We've noticed you only have 17 pieces of flair." "Well, that's the required amount." "We know, but why can't you be like Charlie, who has 38 pieces of flair?" "Because Charlie is a weirdo."

[@kylewilson9260]

Doctor Who was done forever the moment they said a show that started trying to teach kids history should have minorities in historically inaccurate places because it's better optics. Only multi-hair-colored furkins like Doctor Who now.

[@TheSatisfiedPig]

Unpopular opinion, but I think you have David Tenant's first run to blame for that. I think that's where the Doctor became more about getting fangirls squeeing than being an intriguing sci-fi show about an advanced alien mentor interacting with less advanced humans. From there, snowballing into a megaphone for tumberlinas was probably inevitable.

[@2012sonora]

Yeah unfortunately the penetration of normie girls into these franchise canvases is really what did them in. Although this was about the time when a lot of college age girls decided that their fantasies needed to be social activism, so it’s hard to tell if Who was the catalyst or just an unfortunate victim. RTD has always been super woke, though.

[@daishikaze3986]

@@TheSatisfiedPig I'll go one step further and say RTD and crew never understood Doctor Who. That may be why he tried to distance himself from as much classic lore as possible, make it so Gallifrey is gone, destroyed in a time war with the Daleks. The Daleks were mostly entirely wiped out in the same war. He rebooted the Cybermen entirely. Everything that had a history with the Doctor was jettisoned as much as he possibly could. Sure, he later walked a lot of it back, possibly because he didn't know where else to take it without at least some of those elements returning.

[@indiajohnson]

​@@daishikaze3986Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw that.

[@TheMasterQuests]

Pretty much when you get fangirls is when it’s the end because they are cancer. Look what it did for Marvel

[@MS-sb9ov]

The wheelchair paranoia is like a phobic person putting doubt in otherwise sane minds. Davis and others are convincing themselves that there are shadows where none actually exist.

[@teagame1011]

It's weird seeing phobic used in it's correct definition of 'irrational fear' for once, rather than mis-attributed to "measured, well reasoned, threat identification and response"

[@hope-cat4894]

What's happening right now is that we are watching a new version of the Motion Picture Production Code (Hayes Code) that lasted from 1934 to 1968 in Hollywood. Once you realize that, it all makes sense. But they don't want to be compared to that era because it makes them sound like the people they rebelled against decades ago. They have become the new moral guardians.

[@sturkster]

That's a very good comparison.

[@FadingMemories]

All Russel T Davies had to do was not explain why he was using an 'earlier instance' of Davros. If he had just shown Davros earlier in his life people would have been mildly disappointed at worst, hoping to see the iconic look. But RTD is a man who thrives on validation. He needs people to see his motivations and judge him justly by them. He knows that if he says the original version of Davros's design is offensive, he is forever locking this version of Davros in as no future showrunner can use the older version without being judged by it. This Davros, his Davros, is now /the/ Davros. He also could have trimmed the 'male presenting doctors just wouldn't understand' line from his script and all the reception would have been tolerable as well. But he desperately needed to add that in, knowing fully well it would fan the flames of outrage instead of delivering a very forgettable episode of Doctor Who. I wish he would stop sabotaging the show in order to build himself up.

[@paulscottrobson]

It's just bilge. I never thought of Davros as being in a wheelchair. I saw him as someone smashed up by a fight he promoted. Whereas say Professor Xavier in the X-Men is a "ultra modern wheelchair"

[@garylancaster8612]

So almost the dictionary definition of virtue signalling then?

[@FeelMyFerret]

That male presenting line is insulting part the Trans community. If a woman transitioned to a man are they not male presenting now and know nothing?

[@TheBanshee90]

Reminds me of Shane Gillis joke about right wing and left wing Twitter. Right wing is bitching about Colin kaepernick and left wing is just I'm not racist. These people can't just be not racist they have to broadcast it 24-7.

[@stalhandske9649]

A portrait of a child, then.

[@cleanerben9636]

I don't understand how big companies get away with this because I just had a very short Diversity and Inclusion course to do the other day and Diversity quotas are absolutely against the 2010 Equality Act. Why haven't we taken action against the BBC?

[@looinrims]

Cuz you can’t be racist to whites is the rule

[@Invie4196]

need a judge to enforce the rules

[@jimmyb.5356]

Laws mean nothing if no one is willing to enforce it.

[@John-kc4cg]

Under British law they aren't. Brown made specific provisions that if it's against Whitie any discrimination is legal. Look at the states where it is illegal and how long it took to apply the law to just universities.

[@PulaskiSkater71]

They get away with it through Larry fink, Black Rock and ESG.

[@neilgodwin6531]

The "male presenting Time Lord" crack reminds me of Jen's attack on Bruce in She-Hulk "I have to (control my temper) INFINITELY MORE THAN YOU" He can't "let go"? He's been through the Time War. Committed genocide, or believed he had, to end that war. And a temp from Chiswick and a teenager are belittling him, and all those with a penis. My grandfather couldn't "let go" of his experiences in two World Wars and died with PTSD. Don't tell me about "letting go"

[@eerielamp]

Your last sentence should have been what The Doctor responded with. I'm sorry for you and him, and anyone in between with that very real pain. 😢 What a husk of its former glory this show has become.

[@gualacheesesteak]

It’s not that serious get over it

[@robbo_96]

The point that Mauler makes at the end is something Marvel used to do really well, namely in Civil War, in confronting the repercussions of your actions, regardless of how righteous you may think you are; the fact you're endangering innocent people is a big moral conundrum but it's testament to how unqualified these modern scriptwriters are that they wouldn't be able to tackle such weighty themes anymore, but are more concerned with telling their story - getting across their agenda.

[@hope-cat4894]

Because they don't want to think about the fallout that could come from their beliefs. That requires viewing the world through other perspectives.

[@TheMasterQuests]

They don’t want to think from other peoples point of view that’s the problem 💀

[@samanthacarmichael4380]

RTD's 7th doctor novels from the 90s were also incredibly message heavy. When I read them in like 2012, I was shocked at how different the books read than his time as showrunner. So I'd argue that he's always been this way, but he held himself back during his initial TV run of doctor who.

[@lancebaylis3169]

He had co-producers from 2005-2010. I don't doubt they kept tighter reigns on what was editorially allowed. This time he's pretty much been given the keys and, based on a possibly unearned former reputation, been given total editorial freedom.

[@JohnGardnerAlhadis]

When I first heard about Amazon's quota rules, I thought _"No way. This has to be a joke, right?"_ But then I checked for myself and-yup-it's all there! I couldn't believe it. It's like parody and reality have intertwined.

[@Willie_Pete_Was_Here]

It’s the kind of thing that would have been mocked in the 2000’s

[@JohnGardnerAlhadis]

@@Willie_Pete_Was_Here Exactly. Now it's the norm... 🤯

[@SirBlackReeds]

What do you expect from Jeff Bezos?

[@JohnGardnerAlhadis]

@@SirBlackReeds I expect him to blow money on pointless shit like _Rings of Power_ and space tourism for his fellow elites, and not to pretend like he gives a shit about the 99%.

[@Fiasco3]

Ya they have a list of companies. The more 'woke' you are the more they advertise you and give you money.

[@Svdl42]

Russel T Davis produced Queer as Folk back in the 90's that had two of the main characters a 15 year old boy and a 29 year old man having sex without any thought that this was both immoral and illegal and used it to "celebrate" Manchester's gay scene. It was a very toxic horrible show. RTD is not someone who has any right to dictate morals to other people.

[@LukSter18998]

explains why he casted John pedoman then

[@kjp4250]

Charlie Hunnam played the teen in Queer as Folk and he was over 18 at the time of filming. The later show Skins was arguably more objectionable because many of the teen actors were younger than 18 like Kaya Scodelario, who was just 14 when she played a sexually active teen.

[@johnpglackin345]

He essentially approves of abusing boys.

[@michaeld5888]

Well this rework is shaping up to be more a case of 'Queer as Aliens' to celebrate the intergalactic gay scene centred now in London.

[@ph8077]

The Left loves a bit of normalising nay promoting minor attracted people!

[@fernandosanchezm]

I say this as an artist myself, every art has a message, but there is a line between art and propaganda, whereas arte push you to think, propaganda tries to think for you

[@TheChadPad]

I like that. Good art tells you the why of something. Propaganda just tells you the what and hopes you accept it

[@innocentsmith6091]

Good art is propaganda for goodness, truth, and beauty.

[@aldunlop4622]

Precisely.

[@FlaccidWeiner271]

Precisely what was being propagandized?

[@iceprism367]

I've noticed art tends to pose a question and give multiple answers you can think about for yourself while propaganda only gives you one answer that is THE ONLY ONE THAT IS ACCEPTABLE while any other answer is demonized.

[@Booma4142]

People go along with THE MESSAGE because they think their alone. That they are the only ones who think what their seeing is ridiculous, insane, or just plain wrong. Because they've watched when others have spoken up and been destroyed afterward. So they keep quiet and go along with it. But the people keeping quiet are starting to realize they aren't alone, and may in fact be in the majority.

[@josephsalmonte4995]

Absolute fucking nonsense 😂

[@ANonymous-mo6xp]

Just the Drinkers intonation of "THE MESSAGE" is an incredibly valuable pushback in the culture war.

[@JoeyM10]

I’m so glad I read this comment. Thank you. For a while I thought I was the only one who really noticed it, maybe outside a small handful of people I knew who noticed but it didn’t bother them too much. I’ve been much happier (if that’s even the right word) to see that there are MANY others who it pisses off as much as me.

[@graye2799]

Well this is what happens when it's impossible due to laws to gatekeep against these people.

[@harbl99]

Russell T. Davies first big show was called _Queer as Folk_ . It was about exactly what you think it was. He's always been an acolyte of The Message; at this point he's practically an apostle of it.

[@kjp4250]

Do you think every show centred around gay people is inherently politically loaded? Queer as Folk was actually one of the first TV dramas ever to portray gay people in a frank and honest way, as opposed to the constant negative stereotypes of previous decades.

[@Dap1ssmonk]

@@kjp4250it had a 15 year old have sex with a 25 year old, don’t try to pull that shit.

[@langdalepaul]

Getting people to self-censor is precisely their objective. They see it as the natural consequence of “educating” the masses.

[@JackBurton-qp4hc]

^THIS^ needs more upvotes.

[@Hoganply]

The writers' and directors' treatment of redux tennant is effectively an expression of how they feel about detransitioners, especially male ones.

[@tobyflagg8058]

Don't kid yourself and stan for David Tennant, he's as woke and engrained in the ideology as they come. Has been for years. Peter Capaldi, Christopher Eccleston and to a lesser extent Matt Smith would have took a huge shat over that script and turned it down.

[@DoodleThis]

God bless Matt Smith

[@TheBigPicture2020]

Christopher Eccleston would sing the praises of the script before ever watching this episode because of the ideology being featured. He's an incredibly talented actor (has been a favourite of mine for years), but he heavily leans towards the inclusion policy of Doctor Who to the point of blindness.

[@tomnorton4277]

@@TheBigPicture2020 If Christopher Ecclestone was blind, he wouldn't have been so passionate about helping the less fortunate members of Season 1's production staff. Watch his interviews. He said that playing the Doctor was an honour but he couldn't stand the toxic environment, praising the production crew for their hard work but furious that he couldn't so anything to improve their working conditions. That's why he quit. He was nearly 20 years ahead of the curve because he realised that Russel T Davies is the scum of the earth long before Davies exposed himself to the rest of the world.

[@pogmothoin00001]

*Peter Capaldi

[@tobyflagg8058]

@@pogmothoin00001 Edited and thanks 👍

[@glados4765]

When someone virtue signals that hard, I always wonder what kind of Cosby/Weinstein skeletons are they trying to run from?

[@lancebaylis3169]

I'm just going to remind everyone that Chris Eccleston, while being unwilling to name the perpetrators specifically, cited unprofessional behavior on set and bullying, and his flagging it up with producers only for them to do nothing, as a large reason he only did one season. David Tennant was always a plant and more of a 'yes man', and probably more willing to tolerate whatever Eccleston wasn't. I will also point out that Eccleston went from praising Davies prior to production, talking about how impressed he was by Davies script for "The Second Coming" and how excited he was to be working with RTD again, to effectively never mentioning his name when talking about Doctor Who. Supposition, yes. Reading between the lines, yes. But I'm willing to bet Russell T Davies has definitely got magnitude 10 level allegations that are leading to magnitude 11 forced virtue signalling now he's returned to the role of showrunner....

[@JoeyM10]

Pedophilia or closet bigotry

[@guyincognito1406]

Like that Gislane lady convicted of selling children to nobody…

[@Rdeboer]

@@lancebaylis3169 - The BBC never cleans house - they circle the wagons while spouting condescending crap like _"we constantly strive to... blah blah blah"._

[@qasimmir7117]

Saville.

[@BrickfallOfficial]

Whenever someone, especially in the media, starts spouting off about these types of issues and has gone from being pretty chill to an annoying propagandist. It’s usually because something has changed in their personal lives. It could be a wife, child, partner, family member, new friends, etc… You see it all the time. Bill Burr springs to mind.

[@nojuanatall3281]

Bill Burr thinks he is the smartest person in the room but his life is closer to a Truman show curiosity.

[@argenthellion]

The worst part about this clusterfuck is that some people genuinely believed David Tennant would stand for Doctor Who, not join the dumpsterfire. I vividly remember my mother gleefully smiling when David Tennant's return was revealed and I told her not to get her hopes up. This is just one of those instances when saying "I told you so" would only make matters worse

[@markwilkinson4316]

David Tennant stared in the WOKE dumpster fire that was Around the World in 80 days, so I never had any faith in him. Re-imagined for a modern Audience my Arse.

[@RampantDaydream]

Just when you think we’ve hit ‘peak woke’ a new low is unearthed. Dr Who is a new low.

[@wvanyar1801]

Nope, Dr Who has not hit a new low yet. Wait for the viewership drop after the specials are done and Tenant leaves again.

[@RamboSambo2350]

Haven't seen anything yet. It will get a lot worse before it gets better

[@davidgantenbein9362]

@@RamboSambo2350As I always say „once woke is over, we will move to hyper woke and after that to giga woke … but after that it could be finally over“. So yeah, I prepare myself for another 5+ years of hyper woke, better feel safe then sorry here.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Dr Who is 100% going to be a gay black trans Muslim woman in the upcoming decade. It can always be worse.

[@CalOShaughnessy]

Drinker, it makes me very happy to see you've teamed up with Despot.

[@frankspeakmore7104]

Another KZbinr saw this episode and he suggested that people who watch reviews on KZbin and understand the message that the film industry and the BBC are pushing wokeism and the message is to just walk away from it. Don't engage, don't push back don't comment on social media, if this happened then the low numbers would really stand out, but they couldn't point the finger. That would be very effective.

[@clayjohanson]

That was Dave Cullen, and he was absolutely correct. “Doctor Who” is dead. Let the corpse rot and move on.

[@b_g_c3281]

*_Starve_*_ it...._

[@zaleost]

@@clayjohanson For quite a while now I've been thinking a very similar thing about both the show and the BBC in general.

[@MiseRaen]

@frankspeakmore7104 As a commentator that is pretty much admitting defeat because they are the ones pushing back against the intentional shift of entertainment messages. If there is no pushback then they would just continue with their foolish decisions. Its different if youre just an ordinary viewer and you are sick of the message. Its best to walk away and it your right.

[@nelisezpasce]

This reminds me even vids about the Ms. Marvel TV show had lower view counts lel

[@troo_6656]

The sheer disappointment in Mauler's voice is so palpable. You can tell just how tired he is of seeing this play out. How annoyed and disappointed he is in R.T.D. and how done he is at this point

[@markwilkinson4316]

The problem here is that the series makers don't care if you like something or not, only if you tune in & chalk up another viewer figure. The only thing that will change Dr Who - & many other wrecked IPs for that matter - is if enough people turn their backs, walk away, & mean it. It's got to a point where the BBC almost relish the thought of people tuning in to be disappointed or outraged - they should not be given the satisfaction.

[@sillypuppy5940]

Once we get to a point where only a certain demographic can be the villain, there is no scope for hiding that villain, especially if we have diversity quotas. For instance, in a whodunnit, diversity and wokery will eliminate most of the suspects at the start, leaving a choice between the two straight white healthy men. Then we discover that one of them has an invisible disability and bob's your uncle, the mystery is solved in ten minutes flat. Goodness knows what the rest of the show will be. Strong women degrading men?

[@johndoe-lp9my]

That show was called _Law & Order._

[@scottcheg9]

You know why the “something a male presenting time lord” dialogue really gets under my skin? Remember that Time the Doctor took the entire time vortex into himself to save rose? More power and time than either of them could even fathom but vagina so we smarter (there is no emoji apt enough to expresses my anguish and distain)

[@Vonononie]

But it’s about ‘presenting’ so the V-G hasn’t got anything to do with it. It’s whether you wear male or female clothes and what pro noun you use. So the power of the time lords is managed with skirts and calling someone she…IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!

[@scottcheg9]

@@Vonononie I don’t care!

[@samdirichlet7500]

Disparu saying. "It would be so easy to get it right," reminded me of the recent adaptation, "The Watch," of some of Pratchett's discworld characters. They had Cherry Littlebottom who was a very, very smart fantasy-based allegory Pratchett created for feeling like an outsider because of who you are (gay, trans, etc...). Pratchett laid it out perfectly. AND THEY FUCKED IT UP! They just put a tall guy in a dress and a wig and said, "Dwarves can look any way." It was such an unforced act of stupidity that plainly undermined what I assume they were hoping to achieve.

[@TheSektorz]

5:45 I like how it always has to come down to a line like this.

[@ellugerdelacruz2555]

He looks even more destroyed than Oscar Isaac after he said, "Somehow Palpatine returned..."

[@chasehedges6775]

People in the US: Hate Modern Disney People in The UK: Hate the Modern BBC. Our society is so screwed on both fronts.

[@fabesey2016]

It's cringe TV, not a dire threat to civilisation, chill.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@fabesey2016 That’s precisely the problem tho.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@fabesey2016 Then we need better movies and tv shows that teach good lessons and values to children and younger and older adults.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@DorisDay-lw4xs Probably so.

[@fabesey2016]

@@chasehedges6775 I'm not sure there's any more garbage than 20 years ago. The main difference is that it's lame superhero movies and weird corporate pandering instead of the same 3 formulas being recycled in bad summer comedies.

[@randomcenturion7264]

12:54 Spot on. We have a bunch of villains wondering why the Hell no one thinks they're "Heroic."

[@SheldonAdama17]

LMAO at anyone who thought RTD was going to save the franchise like old times. He’ll just do whatever his BBC bosses tell him to.

[@thekoolbreezeeffect]

Exactly, they got played...RTD even said he was gonna carry on the ideology from Jodie Whitaker

[@GorensteinMedia]

But that's the point - the BBC bosses aren't telling him to do this. He _wants_ to do it. He's a propagandist who believes he's doing good. And he's got enough power to be able to order the BBC around. Video on my channel goes into this.

[@DianeCee57]

This was an excellent line up & great discussion.

[@callumsparrow4379]

Modern writers are just ideological Cybermen: “You belong to us. You shall be like us.” - Cyber Controller, Tomb Of The Cybermen (1967)

[@eerielamp]

And the other side of the cult: DI-VER-SI-TY! DIII-VEEER-SIII-TTYYYYYY!!!! and the doctor (the character) is caught in the middle figuring out how to escape the battle between them.

[@nagoranerides3150]

The key here is that art can - and should - challenge the viewers' assumptions without telling them that if they don't agree then they are nazis. There is no art of any value that doesn't reference contemporary society and politics - that in itself is not a problem at all.

[@GUNMETALGUYUSA]

Great Conversation. All Valid Points. Today's society values virtue signaling over artistic legacy.

[@Charlie_Duz]

Keep calling this crap out. It's genuinely disturbing what the BBC is getting away with. ✊

[@spheremulticorp]

Pretty confident that Mauler is right and this is us seeing RTD unshackled and finally allowed to go as far with his propaganda. There's plenty of interviews with him talking about using shows as vehicles for this views.

[@theaverageDon]

"They do stuff to kids..." Boy that sounds foreboding 💀

[@witchfinder-gen]

So long as BBC has tax-payer funding, we all know which one they'll focus on...

[@-yeme-]

its not funded via taxation; I'm obviously a taxpayer but they don't get anything from me because I don't have a TV so I don't buy a license. but frankly I think the funding mechanism is beside the point, there are plenty of media organisations from TV channels, streaming services and film studios that are entirely commercially funded which churn out the same slop.

[@chronicles8324]

correct, they dont need to compete

[@alexedwards6509]

Don't think of it as taxpayer funded. It is more like government sanctioned extortion. Pay us £175 or else.

[@witchfinder-gen]

@@alexedwards6509 well said

[@dinoblacklane1640]

@@-yeme- oh my god, the UK you literally need a license for your tv, what the fuck

[@bobsagat1322]

The thing you mentioned about experimenting reminded me of the movie Ready Player One where they said something like "We've discovered that we can cover 85% of the viewing area with out inducing seizures." The entertainment industry is literally becoming IOI from the movie 😂

[@eddobh]

You guys nailed at the end. The writers trying to appease the mythical "modern audience" seem to not understand the genre they are supposed to make more inclusive. Would not say that about RTD, but people behind MCU, Disney's Star Wars, RoP and others doesn't know what makes a action-adventure or a sci-fi film or series work.

[@Arcanine1995]

omg the awkward silence after Disparu mentions Tennant's wife aha

[@TheGava4]

Well, she’s batshit. What’s awkward? 🤷‍♂️

[@dalevintage]

Davies has always been this way. Think about Torchwood. He was explicit about the importance of representation and challenging the "status quo". This is totally in his wheelhouse.

[@mattjenkins81]

You've hit the nail on the head Drinker. It seems the moral conundrum, ethical implications and even simple character story arcs are none existent in these modern scriptwriters arsenal. It reminds me of a conversation I had with my 8 year old, who saw some news coverage regarding the Israel and Palenstine war and he asked, who are the bad guys?

[@mikzpwnz_3199]

It's kinda why i would never dare put transgenderism in a show about time travel. Mainly because the principles behind it and medical technology gets to the point similar to the IPad, where an iteration of the transition procedure is such a universal success that every previous iteration would be viewed as a failure in one aspect or another like how we find attempts at tablet computers before the Ipad to be failures. There is aslo the "retrofitting" problem where improving the previous iterations to be like the new one becomes impossible dur to the issues with system architecture and engineering that you have to start from scratch, something you cant really do with a person undergone medical surgery. These implications while being an eventual reality (and thus pose a good question for sci-fi) would mean that there leads to a bloodbath that would make it impossible to write without getting cancelled. Such a limiting factor on creativity that you cant realy do anything with it so i personally leave it out.

[@eerielamp]

​@@mikzpwnz_3199love this analysis.

[@summer7603]

Can't spell Reeturd without RTD I think he just took his mask off after all these years under people who reigned his worst in he has finally embraced his inner scum and found a willing buyer for it in Disney to exploit this opportunity to do what he always wanted.

[@awsomestuff583]

If there was no shout out to Wilfred Mott’s character/the actor (whom passed away), thats absolutely atrocious. He was amazing and all the stories I’ve heard about him intervening in the writing of his character are amazing.

[@Senpiezza]

Really good contribution from Disparu and Despot in this vid. Great discussion

[@mathish1477]

I was at QandA for a movie release last night, the directors said "We couldn't get funding for our film, because our script couldn't accommodate the diversity parameters".

[@Gianfranco_69]

Tennant has a 'Rainbow Child" .... wears the badges,got the TShirts...pretty sure he is on the Bus

[@katthunter6561]

'Rainbow child' means a baby you had after a miscarriage.

[@jennifernorburg2441]

RTD and Tennant are true fucking believers. There's a photo doing the rounds of Tennant with his children (faces blocked) his 10 YEAR OLD SON is wearing a shirt saying "lets get 1 thing straight, I'm not" a bloody 10 year old CHILD (my wains are 13 & 15) I'm "an auld wan" (just turned 54) I've been watching since 1978, stayed home from the pub (London) as a 20 something in 96 to watch the "movie " on BBC1. I had PLENTY of "strong female characters" to look up to (Barbara, Zoe, Vicky, Luz Shaw, Sarah Jane, LEELA, Romana, Ace etc & Martha in Nu Who) The Doctor is a MAN (as is The Master). End of story. RTD has put the final nail. I'll be sticking to Classic Who and maybe up to a little of Capaldi. #RIPDoctorWho #LeaveDavrosAlone

[@Maddog3060]

I don't think they're necessarily that dumb; I think they write heroes as villains because these woke writers are ACTUALLY EVIL.

[@frankgesuele6298]

Remember the truly evil believe they are good.

[@FrostekFerenczy]

No, that's just bonkers.

[@angelaharris53]

Evil can't create on its own. It can only warp and twist what was already created to it's own ends. Why do you think they persist in ruining so many good IPs? It's because they can't create their own, only remake/corrupt what already exists.

[@stevesherman1743]

@@frankgesuele6298 Right, they are so evil they can not possibly see reality … AS reality; they have to distort everything and their view of themselves as well.

[@lance134679]

Despot really got to the heart of the issue with modern writing and why shows suck so hard. There is an inescapable weight of so many hurdles that get in the way of creativity and hiring the best people, almost like the layers of bureaucracy that bog down governments from being agile and efficient. Everyone at every level is giving notes about everything from major plot points to the minutia. It's wonder anything ever turns out halfway decent.

[@johnleonard9102]

That Blackrock money must be the most massive stockpile of money ever conceived; how else could companies afford to continually lose money on garbage products like this?

[@Bobthesnob]

Great lineup. I'll have to find the full version of this...

[@QuatrinaVR]

Either leave a hero, or live long enough to become the villain. RTD chose to become the villain

[@peter_schomus]

11:42 that unspoken "policy" of having a woman director for women cast actors is exactly what universities teach. My friend who goes to University of Oregon for film has that exact take. Verbatim.

[@Vonononie]

I think there’s an underlying good reason for this that’s been lost. How many times do we have to sit through a film where either the woman is a talking pair of boobies, or she’s been written and directed as a man, as the director has nothing more to offer? This is how we end up with a film where a woman fights off 5 men, outruns the men, flips a car, and then knocks back a whiskey. The director then says “I gave you a strong female character” completely missing the point, and all they’ve done is change a Jason Statham role to female. But this situation isn’t going to be solved just by flipping the director, it might help sometimes but it’s a bigger issue. Case in point, Weinstein championed female directors and female leads as he would force them to put in full nudity, and make them ‘work’ for the parts, he enjoyed his power over them

[@theherbologer]

I think you guys missed a great point with the Amazon Stufios rules; writing a story for them is now formulaic, and will produce the same show more often than not. And Amazon isn't the only studio to do this, assumedly. And we've seen the formulaic shows-thats why your channels exist at this point. You just proved how and why media has gone to crap, in am empirical way.

[@getlost3346]

Terry Nation! Great stuff ! I recently been watching some of the Avengers and seen his name pop up on the credits.

[@mrcliff3709]

I loved Blake's 7

[@zohzie]

Love you drinker!

[@chasehedges6775]

His content is great

[@Neptune-hh4dq]

This is truly peak slacktivism

[@sshipm1]

They are looking out for their own ability to get work over everything. RTD has done nothing since leaving Dr Who so he may have gotten a little sweetener in his contract (development deal) and he doesnt have to be told what to do, he knows. Actors will back stab their best friends for roles, so a little kissing the ring for them is childs play. They all know that you keep the higher ups happy first (see the whole Weinstein saga) and when the crap hits the fan you act shocked and say you where forced to do this stuff. They are still itinerant carny workers at heart.

[@cha0tr0pic]

"Done nothing"?! His career has been amazing since Doctor Who... he's done his best work by far!

[@jspaingreene6350]

Great panel... Love Disparu and Little Platoon.... Always happy when they're on

[@Sinsteel]

I honestly believe the political messaging is completely the point, and they're more than willing to lose money to do it - as you can see. They think that the political and societal shifts will pay it all off in the long run (and also it's shareholders money anyway).

[@olafgurke4699]

That there haven't been massive lawsuits over it as these media companies actively burn money is still a surprise.

[@jeremygeorgia4943]

Personally, I think that the return was a Wishmaster move, and the special was literally them gloating, "Be careful what you wish for." They have heard for a while that people didn't like the current run of DW, and some of the themes that kept recurring was the wish that RTD and Tennant would return. I think they then said to themselves, "You'd like that eh? You think that would really change the show into something that you, my garbage fan would like? Well, we'll see. Let's give you what you want, and see how you really like it. You undesirable trash fans have no more allies in this industry ☆loud supervillain laugh☆ " It's a Douglas Quaid standing in the same frame with Cohaagen moment. If you notice, Doctor 10 basically said that Jodie was better than him, just because he was a biological woman, then. Donna also said something similar She basically said that D10, as a male would never be as good as a woman. Which is something Rowling got in trouble for. They are completely renouncing and repudiating what went before, and they are using D10ant as the representative/stand-in for OLD DW. "We reject your timeline, and replace it with our own."

[@Moonlightgraeme]

The she can't act line made me laugh so hard when I watched last week's DW, meta for sure 😂

[@user-qn2fk4xy6w]

The best part was when the Doctor told "Rose": "A shame you're not a man any more. He would have understood. But that's something a female-presenting Timebaby wouldn't understand."

[@darren78anderson]

"Its wierd and they do stuff to kids" gotta admit, that does sound like the BBC

[@bghoody5665]

I'm reminded of something CS Lewis said that went something like good can discern between evil and good whereas evil cannot. That's why these writers can't write a good hero story; they're incapable of it.

[@martindenham2207]

A way I've come to look at this whole thing is that if what you're selling requires the customer to be punished if they don't buy, then what you're selling clearly doesn't benefit the customer. So who does it benefit? The one selling of course. Not really a fair exchange.

[@chasehedges6775]

Exactly!

[@chasehedges6775]

Supply and demand at its most painful/disappointing.

[@martindenham2207]

@@chasehedges6775 True, but where is the demand coming from? Clearly not the general public audience, so is it their own echo chamber audience? If this is true, is it simply virtue signalling for their own peer group, with the general public audience (who also pay thanks to the licence fee) being left out in the cold? Is it the privileged elite simply pleasing themselves & those they hob-nob with at cocktail parties?

[@chasehedges6775]

@@martindenham2207 Probably nobody, except maybe the elite and corporate executives and money makers.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@martindenham2207 It’s definitely not for the general public or regular people.

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Who knew that the Max Headroom show's somewhat ludicrous dystopian future they imagined 35 years ago was going to be so spot on? Edison Carter, where are you?

[@tschak909]

I have to point out that this whole idpol sphere is directly tied to business and investment compliance. This is not conspiracy, you can see it in every single all employees meetings that happen every year at the largest companies in the world, mine included.

[@HeavyMetalJesus02]

I restarted watching the New series of Doctor Who with Christopher Eccleston. Davies' politics were always there under the surface. For example, i believe it was episode 7 or 9 that took place in 1941 England. The young mother and kids were stealing people's food while they were hiding in bomb shelters. Eccleston's doctor reacted by saying, "I love it. It's Marxism in action." It was definitely more subtle at the time. *Correction in the comments Moffat wrote episode 9, "The Empty Child." Davies had executive producer credit.

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Except that was a pretty fun and layered scene when you think about it. It was revealed that the owner of the home was capable of producing a full Sunday dinner in WWII London during the era of rationing, because he was friendly with the local butcher. So "friendly" in fact that he was in a gay relationship with said butcher and cheating on his wife. And imagine that, showing an LGBT character as having negative traits. This kind of politics usually works well when it's subtle and clever, not when it's clubbed unsubtly over people's heads.

[@HeavyMetalJesus02]

@RJALEXANDER777 Oh, I am not arguing against that. And I do have to make a correction. It was Steven Moffat that wrote that episode. Davies, funny enough, only has executive producer credit. Though considering the special with Tennant, it makes me wonder how much input Davies had on Moffat's script.

[@LukSter18998]

@@HeavyMetalJesus02leering over his work like the happiness patrol

[@HeavyMetalJesus02]

@LukSter18998 I'm not sure what you're saying. If you read the thread, I have no problem with subtlety. All I'm saying is that the politics were always there. If you think I'm trying to patrol happiness, then you misunderstood or failed to read the whole thread.

[@dannyhicking]

I don't agree with the premise that Russell T Davies was ever a capable writer. I have always thought he was a hack

[@chasehedges6775]

Same with Dave Filoni. Even when the Clone Wars show was good, that was mainly because of George Lucas being there in charge and having influence.

[@mala6238]

​@@chasehedges6775and the writing is still not good in this show.

[@no-oneX]

Ehh he had some good episodes, like Midnight. But a lot of them were very much geared towards a younger audience

[@lance134679]

Great panel on this Open Bar. I sure wouldn't want to be on the other side of any debate about entertainment against Mauler and Platoon. 😄

[@AardvarkPaysOff]

Art is an expression open to interpretation. A message isn't any deeper than a puddle, only sent to be understood.

[@bananonymouslastname5693]

I have never enjoyed new Doctor Who. Even before it became what it is, the 1 hour timeslot made everything more formulaic, and it never felt like an extension of the classic series to me. When they started ret-conning things, I just stopped paying attention. Star Wars had already robbed me of some of my childhood joy, and I didn't want to not enjoy Tom Baker as much as I have in my life. The Davros thing is extraordinarily stupid. It's not even a wheelchair- it's a life support machine, and he has artificially extended his life in the pursuit of knowledge, power, and the advancement of the Kaled race. He is withered because he refuses to die after far too many years. There's nothing disparaging to folks in wheelchairs in the characters. He's more of a cosmic WWII villain.

[@hariman7727]

The one Chris Eccleston season was great. Tennant's run was pretty good, but started showing its flaws.

[@Tinandel]

And just remember, they’re coming for the Fallout series next!

[@rebelrider3361]

The end of this video makes me remember the first off feeling I got from the Star Wars Sequels. Fin started gleefully mowing down stormtroopers with no hesitation. He'd only wanted to desert to save his own skin because he had trouble killing a few minutes earlier. This made me feel something was off immediately because his actions made no sense. Even a few seconds of hesitation or a line where Poe would tell him he had to shoot would have helped. People with no sense of morality can't write heroes. I think that's the root of the problem.

[@stevekay6895]

Art has almost always carried a message with it. This is just a message nobody wants preached to them

[@TheChadPad]

Good art never just preached though. It convinced

[@stevekay6895]

@@TheChadPad what is the line between preaching and convincing then ?? It all boils down to the persons acceptance of the message if you ask me and it’s always preaching to the choir

[@_Ciaran_Maher]

@@stevekay6895 Well presenting something isn't the same as endorsing it. Good art tells you things without telling you how you're supposed to respond to them, it just lets you respond.

[@stevekay6895]

@@_Ciaran_Maher the word “good” is subjective

[@_Ciaran_Maher]

@@stevekay6895 Yeah no shit

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

R.I.P., Time Lord in the Blue Box...😞

[@TheKpa11]

Time lord in the blue box?

[@frankspeakmore7104]

I'm surprised it has stayed blue, and not rainbow colours.

[@TheKpa11]

@@frankspeakmore7104 From what I’ve seen, blue is super common to emulate for shows. CW had plenty of blue lights in their shows. Blue for holograms, Blue for holographic computer screens, blue for neon lights for labs, clubs, or bases. Blue energy.

[@jeancaron9325]

Art and Good stories will always Trump Over The Message.

[@chasehedges6775]

💯💯💯👍👍.

[@JohnGardnerAlhadis]

lol, Trump

[@TransformersBoss]

When it comes to Hollywood writers and producers absolutely despising the rest of us and not thinking about casualties depicted in their movies, one thing that comes to my mind is fuel-trucks blowing up. Every single frickin movie that shows a semi truck hauling a fuel tanker inevitably blows the truck up. It’s just an action set-piece to them, and I always think about the trucker who just got nuked by that. Poor guy

[@dirtyfunkymonkey]

This is a strong line-up...

[@ElliotThereal]

Disparu said exactly what I was quietly saying outloud to myself the other day as KZbin was trying to encourage my thoughts in a certain direction... it would be SOOO easy to get this right... that we're not even looking for something cutting edge amazing, we just want a good well-written story without the unending layers of modern cringe...movies and shows have stopped telling memorable tales and are relegating themselves to lectures and HR videos at a grand scale.

[@jameskirkland1899]

I think what's worse is they think having a message means having a political message when it really can just be a universal theme that everyone knows and relate to James Cameron was the best at this he's gotten a little heavy handed with the Avatar movies but like Aliens for example is a movie that at the heart of it is about motherhood thats why it's still able to connect with people along with the effects the sooner they realize that a movie isn't going to be able to solve the worlds problems but can still provide lessons you can apply to your own life the sooner we'll get better writing

[@BlueBoxRevan]

Russell T gets wayyyyy to much credit. Much like Rodenberry, they ultimately launched an awesome vehicle. But the best episodes were created by writers that never get credit. Russell takes allll the credit simply because he was the guy that got the 2005 greenlit and laid the initial ground for it to be possible. The real Russell T was the reason why Eccelston tapped out of the show super early on. Keep that in mind

[@Windstorm7x7-wl8ko]

News Flash; "The Message" has been in TV and film longer than you think, you just haven't noticed because it's been dolled out in snippets. Over the last 5 years the perveyors have boldly pushed forward thinking it was time. The challenge now that it hasn't caught on as desired is to as you say " discover just how much can be inserted without completely destroying the entertainment value." Your challenge is to catch them in the act and discern for a normal audience just how insidious this tactic is and alert them to the dangers of supporting it. Diluted pollution is still pollution.

[@Snoop_Dugg]

It's definitely been there since the 90's... Except can then they had competent writers where it didn't detract from the plot

[@JoeyM10]

Agreed it’s definitely been around for a while and certainly also agree that it was not nearly as ubiquitous as it is now. Agree with the comment above mine as well that at least there were competent writers that wove it in rather than beat you over the head with it

[@Avenus112]

Davies wrote to entertain the viewers. Now he writes to entertain himself.

[@richdurbin6146]

RTD came back to pound the final few nails in the coffin.

[@phillmac3951]

Never look at someone in a wheel chair as evil, but now he pointed it out you can see it 😂

[@Tulf42]

"Attention peasants. We're about to tell you what to think. Now you just be quiet and absorb our knowledge." - Critical Drinker's impersonation of the BBC. I'm not sure if I should answer on behalf of our entire country but as a Brit myself I found this funny for how true it is.

[@Wheelie2077]

Like many people, I don't want to listen to politicians' lies. So they put politics into entertainment. Please get it into your thick skulls. I don't care about politicians and their lies.

[@chasehedges6775]

THIS!

[@chasehedges6775]

In Roman times, soldiers/generals didn’t think highly of politicians or senators. History repeats, much

[@PrebleStreetRecords]

It’s the Hays Code all over again.

[@NASkeywest]

Said it for years. These companies are not stupid and know what’s losing them All the money. Alas, it isn’t about the money, it’s the message. The government or the banks will be there to bail them out.

[@tomjames9681]

What BAFFLES me the most is that RTD can write great stories with representation. He seemingly understands great storytelling, or at least did understand it. He did it consistently with Doctor Who and Torchwood. One story that always makes me laugh is when he was talking about the BTS for Children of Earth, the third series of Torchwood. There’s a character death in that story that is incredibly impactful, and it was floated that the character might survive somehow in the writing room. RTD was always labelled as “the softy” when it came to his stories, which made it funnier when he insisted on keeping the ending as heart wrenching as possible, leaving the character dead. It was a lead character, who was also gay and Russel didn’t shy away from the idea of letting that character stay dead, when the tropes of a lot of current day writing would probably have you keep them alive to avoid “burying your gays” or whatever. There were some writing issues with that storyline, but aside from those, the writing was brilliant, creative, dark and thoughtful, and laden with representation of well written characters. It’s why I had the highest hopes for RTD returning, he gets why representation is important but also why strong writing is key. He’s like the BBC’s golden child. Guess he’s just gone a little far off in the deep end recently, but even his more recent work is well written. This recent episode of DW is such an anomaly.

[@Flitalidapouet]

The goal IS NOT to represent. The goals is to DESTROY and DISMANTLE what YOU love. They are evil mate, get this ASAP. 👺👺🥱