Drinker's Chasers - Franchise Burnout or Writing Fatigue?

[@johnleonard9102]

I remember when Solo tanked, all the journalists tried to blame franchise fatigue for the poor sales. They completely ignored the fact that Last Jedi was universally hated; we didn't want to experience those feelings in theater so soon again.

[@johnleonard9102]

@Richard Charles agreed. The first three phases of the MCU, I was committed to see every film so I didn't miss any details. Then I watched Wanda vision and thought it started off pretty good, but it ended on a whimper. And then Captain Falcon was just trash all the way through. Those two shows told me everything I needed to know about the direction the MCU is going, and the only thing that I've watched and enjoyed is the new Spider-Man movie.

[@SpaceJawa]

It was also at the same time that Marvel was releasing two to three movies a year and they were all hits.

[@emhu2594]

I hated Solo even more than the last Jedi.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@emhu2594 Solo was sooo meh

[@Erasureeraser]

I wouldn't say universally hated, it was just a massive divisive response. Some liked it, some don't. I liked Solo more than Last Jedi

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

This isn't writing fatigue; it's a writing coma.

[@stoic_1394]

Facts machine

[@rajyavardhansingh4491]

Facts

[@xxapexprogenesisxx5391]

They asleep at the wheel💀

[@daniellavaladez7820]

FACTS

[@RagingEggs]

That might be insulting to comas. At least in comatose you can dream and it may be pleasant. None of this is pleasant. What a nightmare.

[@Endermanguy-wj3fn]

Is it really the burn out that's killing the franchise? Or is it the poor quality of writers in Hollywood these days?

[@MrJeffcoley1]

Before there was a "franchise" there were sequels. Everyone knew sequels were a cash grab, going back to the well with a product that was almost always inferior. The MCU is there.

[@Сайтамен]

The writing suffers so badly because they don't take time to write stories, they produce content faster.

[@justinambru8529]

But not every sequel is a bad thing.

[@bighand1530]

@@justinambru8529 Sequels can be unpredictable

[@Lonovavir]

Both, too many writers now lack life and writing experience and people are bored with franchises being dragged out past their expiration date. My take on modern writers is a problem is they're not readers, they don't gain alternate perspectives, ideas, etc.

[@matthewblankenzee5452]

It's not writing fatigue, it's bad writers. If you filter your writers by irreducible physical characteristics and not metrics then you get the stories they put out today.

[@johnstrawb3521]

And it's one more lesson in how hard it is to write even just decently for film and television. The overwhelming majority of series and films are simply bad. They're not that way because writers are lazy.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Diversity=unqualified employees

[@bluefish4999]

You use to have to work your way up to a big budget film, now they're getting directors and actors based on their degree and politics, and it shows as they lack any kind of talent.

[@kevind3974]

Ya just look at andor vs she hulk for that one. She hulk knew it had horrible writers they made it a plot point Andor on the other hand is one of the best written and acted story’s we’ve had in years by far.

[@brijor6ff7]

@Richard Charles exactly. I've watched Star Trek TNG more time then i can remember, and even today if i'm flipping through channels or a TNG clip shows up in my recommends there's like a 90% chance i'm gonna watch it.

[@kevinappel1847]

80% bad writing and wokeness. 20% burnout

[@MrJeffcoley1]

Woke is the flavor of the moment, but political propaganda generally doesn’t make for good entertainment.

[@old_fritz]

the political stuff (currently woke, back in the day strong conservatism) is just a byproduct of the burnout and lack of creativity. It's the fruit not the root

[@albaniahenry-franklin2829]

@@old_fritz Agreed.

[@bartsullivan4866]

@@old_fritz well said.

[@MrJeffcoley1]

@@old_fritz Are you trying to tell me The Green Berets is not the greatest movie ever made???

[@SheldonAdama17]

Star Trek had pretty much burned out by the time ENT wrapped up, but it still could have been saved after a hiatus by bringing in competent writers with fresh ideas. What passes for Trek now is nothing less than deliberate sabotage.

[@newsrapper]

I haven't watched any of the new stuff and I haven't heard a single person say anything good about it

[@Anthyrion]

I haven't watched STNW, so i can only talk about the shows, i watched. Discovery: Aborted after S1. Picard: Watched both Seasons. S1 was mostly dumb and boring. At the end of S2 i sat here and screamed at my monitor, that someone should take this abomination out of my eyes before i murder someone. The only thing i like from New Trek is Lower Decks. After S2 i really was hooked on this show. Decent storylines, crazy but likeable characters, none of them was a Mary Sue like Michael Burnham and when they rescued a other Starfleet Ship at the end of S2 it was a combined effort of the crew. Also: Tons of references to former shows. The only thing i don't like is the constant use of cursing. If they put that away, it will be a great Trek show. 🙂

[@texasbeast239]

The reaction to Axanar showed that there is plenty of passion for canonical, faithful Star Trek. But TPTB squashed that so they could shove Woke Trek down our throats instead. SNW is a breath of fresh air, but it isn't completely free of the Woke disease either.

[@IRMentat]

enterprise took 2 series to pend half of series 3 at the point that people wanted in the first place nothing since has even felt like trek including the movies.

[@Banana_Split_Cream_Buns]

I haven't seen ENT, but a lot of diehard Trekkies really like it. The only problem I had with it was I was pretty much burned out with Trek by the time Janeway could take out entire fleets of Borg cube with her pinky finger. They really should've taken a good long break after _Insurrection_ and then have gotten Rick Berman to select an apprentice writer/director/producer to help take over in a new phase, in the same way that Roddenberry selected him. Instead they got JJ and Kurtzman and it all went down the shitter.

[@DocGadget11]

This is why fan films are gaining more views on KZbin. They respect the lore and fandom while working on a shoestring budget.

[@John-Doe-Yo]

Got any suggestions?

[@DocGadget11]

@@John-Doe-Yo prelude to Axanar is a good one

[@John-Doe-Yo]

@@DocGadget11 Aw come on just one?

[@Pinnaporaptor]

@@John-Doe-Yo Predator Dark Ages is a pretty good one, it's about the Predator in the medieval era.

[@DocGadget11]

@@John-Doe-Yo kzbin.info/aero/PLhvh2eq-XLgqNxH6npvQxGxLCUHy90IpZ

[@ComposedSage75]

They’re creatively bankrupt and keep tryin to push this divide between folks on the lines of gender, race, and socioeconomic status. The general public is largely sick of it overall.

[@BlazingOwnager]

To be fair, socioeconomic status is the main one that matters as much as everyone wants to pretend otherwise.

[@debbiehenri345]

Yes, it's the old 'divide and conquer' routine. And that's dangerous at a time when society is already dividing in several countries that have an important impact on the world. It's bad enough that our newspapers and news channels are constantly consolidating their biases, without films and associated media doing the same thing.

[@pistolbobcat420]

Disney Lucasfilm especially seems to love having a divided fan base You can’t tell me the whole “Boba Fett’s starship” controversy wasn’t manufactured on purpose, they did this because they know it would keep us arguing

[@kristonrolf1433]

I think the real test will be Guardians 3. That’s a well loved group of characters that so far have not been tainted by the bad writing that is dragging everything else down, if that falls off a cliff as well then I think they are in trouble.

[@bighand1530]

Regardless, I think this is the last time the Guardians of the Galaxy are gonna be a team.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

It would be ironic that the success is from James Gunn (who leaves) featuring Pratt (that the left hates)

[@anubusx]

@@bighand1530 I think Drax and Mantis will die.

[@jasonfischer8946]

For me, it was a combination. I got burnt out from it BECAUSE of the bad writing and the same thing over and over again. It was also done too quickly by the time that the last 2 Avengers movies came out

[@bighand1530]

I prefer the first two Avengers movies(even Age of Ultron) over Infinity War and Endgame.

[@spritvio639]

@@bighand1530 Id take the first two movies over Endgame, them over Infinity War? Ehhhhhhh

[@bruhdon4748]

@@bighand1530 yeah at least it was fresh and new back then, it gets boring watching a villain beat in one shot with the power of friendship

[@FMK03]

@@spritvio639 Have you watched endgame review by Fringy, by any chance? If not, I highly recommend it.

[@NateDecker1982]

I agree with the rebuttal comment. It isn't a franchise problem, it's a writing problem. Some fantasy/sci-fi literature involves dozens of books that an author writes over a period of decades and fans keep reading it as long as the stories are compelling.

[@captainz9]

I'd add the insulting the fan base instead of listening - the "we know best and screw the faithful audience that we'll call racist, sexist, etc". Sorry, but if I don't like your movie that's*your* fault for making something not universally enjoyable, not mine for disliking it.

[@chasehedges6775]

Definitely comes down to the writing.

[@bmcfonzie]

To The Little Platoon's point, my theory about what tends to lead to the poor writing (which itself leads to reduced interest and popularity from audiences) is that once you've built up all this momentum of financial success, and movie studios start assuming they can just check the boxes they need to check and continued financial success is basically guaranteed, they are setting themselves up for a fall. You saw that from some of the studios who attempted to cash in on the cinematic universe concept, without putting in the necessary work to actually realize that success. But now you are also seeing it with the MCU itself, which cannot get out of its own way. I believe this was also a factor in the disaster of the Star Wars sequel trilogy. They assumed success was inevitable, so they weren't incentivized to actually make it good.

[@howardjohnston6112]

Indeed. But lets' be honest - without George Lucas it has been a fucking mess. Because he understood that the story came first. Kennedy, Johnson, Abrams and these other wankers assume the brand name is enough. Well, as with anything, the brand can only take you so far. You might buy cars based upon brand history and proven quality - until the company is taken over and the whole thing becomes substandard. These franchises are the same: Star Wars; Star Trek; The Lord Of The Rings; Terminator; Predator; MCU; DCEU; etc. etc. etc.

[@FMK03]

@@howardjohnston6112 Exactly, that's why I don't understand people who parade filoni and favreu around as the ones who will save Star Wars.

[@evildoughboy7773]

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, but creative bankruptcy and constantly hammering in the message certainly don't help either.

[@evildoughboy7773]

@Richard Charles that's your take on it. Back when there used to be years in between releases, the content we got was much better overall. Nowadays they're clamoring over themselves to pump out as much crap as possible and the bland corporate mediocrity makes up the majority of it. Also what's good is not only subjective, but also hard to tell, considering that even the most horrendous of shows have been given multiple seasons. The CW is a great example of that. Also, how good a show is doesn't seem to matter when it comes to streaming services either because they get their money solely from memberships and advertising. I wouldn't be surprised if rings of power got a second season. The fatigue isn't just because there's a lot of content being pushed out, but includes other variables like how badly they are handling these franchises.

[@evildoughboy7773]

@Richard Charles like I said before, bad writing doesn't seem to stop shows from getting a multitude of seasons. Now I started this thread by mentioning creative bankruptcy and narrative bashing, though I should have added fan bashing too. However, don't you think there might be a connection between the constant stream of the same media and the majority mediocrity, along with the bad writing? In the pursuit to pump out as much content as possible, the ability to keep it permanently good becomes impossible. My thoughts are, if they took time between projects, even just a few months, and focus more on good storytelling, then they would have better product.

[@CmdrBrannick]

It ain't burn out. It's bad writing. They just want to promote their own message instead of telling good stories. Andor is a great example of how we still want and love great stories. I couldn't car less how much I got of something as long as it's good.

[@kaimerry1587]

perhaps a bit of both?

[@rod4309]

I've been watching/reading "superhero" stuff without substantial breaks since i was a kid. Just like i still listen to the music genre rock, the literary genre "Superheros" hasn't gotten stale to me.

[@__________f9433]

I think burnout could be part of it. Endor could be good, but I don’t ever hear anyone talking about it, not in significant numbers.

[@longgone6312]

agreed cause they can go away for ten years but if they come back with they're political messeges and bad writing then it wont matter but im definitely not burnt out im burnt out with bad writing and politics

[@CmdrBrannick]

@@__________f9433 People aren't talking about Andor because not many are watching it, and they aren't watching it because they feel burnt by Kenobi and Boba Fett which both sucked. Same thing happened with Solo because of The Last Jedi.

[@Tim_the_Enchanter]

The question of "fatigue" kind of answers itself. as someone who did grow up when westerns were the most popular genre, I can say that -- while there was no real revival -- films like Silverado and Open Range and Unforgiven overcame any "fatigue" that might have existed simply because they were well-written, well-acted stories. Fatigue only ensues when creativity dies.

[@bighand1530]

Did you see Rango?

[@chasehedges6775]

@@bighand1530 Rango is a masterful film of animation

[@bighand1530]

@@chasehedges6775 I find it underrated

[@chasehedges6775]

@@bighand1530 One of the best films of 2011

[@josefk332]

Stories, stories, stories. We need stories, we are creatures shaped by our stories. If the story’s good, fatigue won’t even register. This has been a truth throughout history and in all cultures. Unfortunately there’s been too much emphasis over the last decade+ on eveything else but.

[@SpaceJawa]

Doyle got tired of Sherlock Holmes before the audience did. Same for Baum who wanted nothing more than to write about anything BUT Oz.

[@leedobson]

Ever since mankind got together around a fire, good storytelling has been revered

[@chasehedges6775]

@@leedobson Yep. Good Stories matter

[@coreys.2456]

Now that I think about it, I’m not exactly tired of superhero stuff. I’m just tired of bad superhero stuff. Invincible is a pretty good show right now and it’s pretty well-written, too. Yeah it’s a superhero show, but what sets it apart isn’t the fact that it’s not the MCU or DC. It’s the fact that (at least with season 1) it’s handled with care by people who care. That’s what we need in Hollywood right now. We need people who know what they’re doing and what they are playing with. People who only utilize VFX, CGI, practical effects, and all this other stuff as tools to help them in their artistic endeavor, not as a solution for every problem. People who don’t have any other intention than just telling a spectacular story in the best way possible.

[@Batman88878]

What you said about Invincible being written by people who care reminds me of Beau DeMayo's comments regarding X-Men '97 & how the showrunner & writers of The Witcher don't care about & openly mock the source material.

[@BillPeschel]

The demand for good writers far outstrips the supply of writers in Hollywood. Just like the demand for great showrunners far outstrips the supply of showrunners.

[@mikebrines5708]

True. The supply of truly dedicated blue haired transgender homosexual vegan feminazis is very small, even in California.

[@emhu2594]

There are plenty of great screenwriters. They are driven out of Hollywood because the people hired by nepotism steal their scripts. The result is terrible scripts written by untalented people who are just writing for an easy paycheck. Protect the screen writers, get great scripts.

[@bathtub_marmot]

@@emhu2594 It's pretty common in entertainment companies to value loyalty over ability when it comes to hiring. Kind of psychotic that they think they can demand loyalty from fans though. You have to earn that.

[@chasehedges6775]

You need good writers, not mediocre writers

[@blatherskite3009]

I've walked this earth for 50 years, which has been long enough to recognise that everything goes in cycles of about 20-30 years. A genre proves popular so it gets done to death; the market gets flooded with inferior copycat products, everyone gets tired of the genre, and it dries up and goes away. Then, a decade or two later, someone makes a new film in that genre - and (crucially) they didn't make it just because it's a popular genre; they made it because they genuinely wanted to make that film and think they've got a new angle. And a new cycle begins. It's no coincidence, of course, that "about 20-30 years" is also approximately a human generation, meaning you've also got a whole new generation of teens-and-twenties who didn't get burned out on the previous wave and think their dad's favourite films are dated. Everything old is new again, and round and round we go.

[@TheOmegadusk]

If Disney turned everything around tomorrow, it would take YEARS for them to win back the trust and respect of fans.

[@SpaceJawa]

I'm personally of the opinion that Disney can not restore Star Wars. Doesn't matter what they do, Disney Star Wars is beyond recovery. The junk will always be there, and there is no 'do over'. As far as I'm concerned, the only possible path forward for Star Wars to recover is for Disney to sell Lucasfilm to someone else and for the new owner to chuck the entirety of Disney's garbage out wholesale and start fresh.

[@fixer1140]

@@SpaceJawa option B, get someone like David Zaslav, start chopping off heads and purge Lucas Film like order 66. Give Filoni and Favreau more power to tell good stories, but we all know that is just a fool's hope.

[@SpaceJawa]

@@fixer1140 Unless this Zaslav figure purchased Star Wars from Disney, it would still be Disney Star Wars.

[@kungfuvoodoo9889]

I can't trust them if they even show signs of turning around because they've done that before only to hammer in more woke bs

[@TheOmegadusk]

@@fixer1140 Honestly, I think Filoni and Favreau are both overrated. Their stuff only seems good because everything else has been so bad. Maybe I'm wrong but I see them as Disney stooges

[@garryault5831]

I agree with Drinker. So tired of superhero movies. Especially Marvel. I went to the movies today and it had two Marvel trailers and each time I rolled my eyes and just couldn't care less.

[@Valisk]

I've seen TLP a few times on The Drinker's channel now and I'm so impressed. He doesn't say too much, but when he does, he cuts right to the heart of whatever issue is being discussed. Definitely going to look his channel up.

[@ScoundrelSFB]

Glad we have these larger voices to say what most feel about the decline of cinema and shows. It's not just messages shoved down our throats, just bad material that is not what we want to consume. And soon many backs will be turned no matter what comes out.

[@plumbussmith]

I agree with Jeremy. It's not franchise fatigue, it's shitty writing fatigue.

[@chasehedges6775]

💯💯. Yep

[@thisisfyne]

I think fatigue may not even exist - the biggest example of that being the popularity of streamers. People will tune in day after day after day for years to see the same ashole play videogames. Why? Because they've found content they enjoy that is consistent, fun, and creates a sense of community (coincidently, politics if often off the table). The MCU kinda used to be like that: consistently enjoyable, fun, and something we could all get on board with (and if not, that's cool too). The problem with the big IPs nowadays is *definitely* the drop of quality mixed with the sheer amount they put out, just for the sake of content. You don't have creators driven to tell a story; you have corporate mandates and checklists.

[@TheSektorz]

idk about "writing fatigue" most of those writers haven't written anything beforehand, how are they fatigued already one might get the sneaking suspicion that they simply suck and were not hired for their writing skills

[@Lonovavir]

A lot of them lack life experience and aren't readers. Hire unqualified people, get bad results.

[@ethansnyder3401]

It's because they're hiring hack activist writers whose work is being gleefully signed off on by the execs.

[@docsavage8640]

They were hired to check boxes on a diversity list, not based on storytelling ability or ideas.

[@lucara]

I think, it's a general problem that Hollywood is producing too much, too fast. This actually bothers me for a while now. Does anyone remember, when they took time, to make a sequel? For example: There is a 7 year gap, between Alien 1 and Alien 2. This is unthinkable today.

[@bighand1530]

One thing I heard that it is becoming more common(and I think producing so much and so fast plays a big part)where people may have heard of certain movies, but never watched them.

[@walterm140]

Great stuff guys, thanks. I was 21 when the first Star Wars movie came out. Time magazine did a really glowing article about it with an X-wing fighter on the cover. It opened in my home town of Chattanooga, Tennessee. Chattanooga is a national test market due to its size and demographics. I saw it opening day. There were about five other people in the theater. It was so awesome I watched it twice in a row with my brother. It took it a little while to catch on. I went with another friend and he said "Let's watch it again." I had the same experience with another friend. So I saw it six times in about 3 weeks. The thing about Star Wars was, yes it was a serviceable story, but also the special effects just blew everything previous away. TV "Star Trek", "Space 1999", "2001 A Space Odyssey." It was just amazing. I used to go to the Dollar Movie theater, and just watch the last part of the movie; I must have seen it 50 times.

[@saldiven2009]

Franchise burnout, and genre burnout, are real things, especially with the studios' insistence on beating everything to death. Honestly, I haven't had any particular interest in super hero movies/shows in almost a decade. For example, the last MCU movie that I was excited about seeing was Iron Man 3. Pretty much ever since then, the only time I watch those movies are when I'm on a long flight and need to kill several hours. Edit: Also, I think there's another issue that I don't think I've seen many people talking about. I think the talent pool for writers and directors has run way too thin. Fifty years ago, there were only a small number of broadcast channels, no cable presence to any particular degree, and only a small number of major movie studios. Home internet access didn't exist. Consequently, writers and directors had to be pretty good to get anyone to spend any money on their projects. Today, there are several streaming services, literally hundreds of cable networks, even more broadcast stations, etc. Today, there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of hours of material that have to be published to provide content for all these services. The amount of material required has increased at a rate FAR greater than the ability to generate good quality writers and directors. There are still good writers and directors out there, of course, but there are so many more mediocre to below average writers and directors getting the opportunity to create content because the companies need that material for dissemination. I'll give an extreme example. According to IMDB data, in the 1940's, there were approximately 7900 movies made. During the 2,000's, that figure increased to over 30,000 movies, increasing by almost four times. The US population has only doubled in that time (or a hair more than doubled). The population doesn't have the talent pool available to produce material to the standard of previous decades simply because of the sheer amount of material the various companies want produced.

[@hiredgoon93]

The 80s were all about action movies. Sci fi movies were around but rare enough to get excited about.

[@indistinctchatter3501]

My comic book movie bar has been Ironman. It had a fantastic actor with a good arc, a tight script, and superb visual effects.

[@IRMentat]

same iron man, blade, burton batman would be my go-to christopher reeve superman, supergirl (I was young the casting was good, and the witch thing amused me), rocketeer, stardust for something uplifting unbreakable, the shadow matrix (it counts), aeon flux, chronicle, dredd for a darker setting and that's ignoring the cartoons series.

[@MagcargoMan]

@@IRMentat Aeon Flux as in the movie? That was garbage, and it's not even a superhero movie.

[@greuju]

Just listening and I'd like to say I'm enjoying your book. Can't wait for the short story or whatever is planned.

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

well 'Star Wars: The Fatuous Menace' (1999) was franchise fatigue to me

[@shawnloop2796]

Andor shows what can be done with good writing and shows that you don't need flashy CGI battles to have a good story.

[@riglef]

I'm really into it so far. Hope they don't fuck it up.

[@jefflang4029]

By far the best show/movie produced by Disney Star Wars to date. Brilliant writing, casting & directing. It's a shame that it's not getting the attention that it clearly deserves.

[@heraldofwar]

As others have said in the comments there is no such thing as burnout if the writing and development of characters is of a high or even a good quality. Pushing out the same formula over and over with poor writing and bad characters people are going to walk away.

[@A_NorthKorean_CoOp]

Andor is the dark house from the new Star Wars atm (apart from RO), it has great writing, action, world building and the characters actually behave like normal people

[@chasehedges6775]

Andor has been a 10/10.

[@ethansnyder3401]

If I watch this thing and it's not a 10/10 I'm going to be freaking pissed.

[@LordVader1094]

@@ethansnyder3401 It is in fact a 10/10, if you care about good writing, acting, and a story with genuine soul

[@1minion203]

They don't trust their audiences, I think that's part of what it boils down to. They don't dare shelve a franchise for a few years because they think the audience attention span is as short as a gnat's. They'll keep churning out subpar content rather than risk being forgotten, even though what they're churning out is all forgetable dreck that nobody will want to remember they did anyway.

[@nicholastuttle2445]

A book series I like (Omega Force by Joshua Dalzelle) is on book 12, but it was good starting out and now its even better so I'm not tired of it. Good writing helps a lot.

[@berfwellington2552]

I would be keeping my eye on andor. This is the first show that is creating a buzz in the office. Since the last Jedi my interest in Star Wars has more been out of morbid curiosity than anything this is the first show that I am excited for.

[@southernindianacompetitive9040]

I cannot get over just how good Andor has been. Brillliantly written and acted.

[@Endermanguy-wj3fn]

@@southernindianacompetitive9040 j I have yet to watch it, is it really that good?

[@berfwellington2552]

Some actors from the HBO Chernobyl show have signed on as well as other talented actors. Having followed the show thus far I think they signed up because they though the script was good.

[@southernindianacompetitive9040]

@@berfwellington2552 Somebody said Andor is like HBO did a SW mini series! it was great to see the lead miner show up as one of the corporate security guys. Took me a second but I knew I recognized his voice.

[@southernindianacompetitive9040]

@@Endermanguy-wj3fn it is! It tells its story at its own pace so there is some set up and a slow burn. It looks amazing and it is very well written with great dialog and incredible acting. And you finally get an actual sense of menace from The Empire. In one particular scene, there are 5 or 6 people in a valley when this lone TIE Fighter swings in over the top of them. In other previous movies it would be shot down in some cheesy way or they would find some magical way to escape it, but now you get an actual sense of dread as this fighter heads straight for them. This one lone fighter that would be shot down or blown up in other movies and you'd never think twice about it again now fills you with a feeling of dread. It is beyond them.. Give it a try, give it a couple of episodes and I think you'll enjoy it. it is a story so there are lots of times with no action but it might be the most 'real' of the SW content out there.

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

I do agree that Dark World is where you started to see the problems. They were quickly trying to expand the Infinity Stones and there's no glue to actually hold the MCU together. The thing is that you did have a few quality movies like Winter Solider and Guardians of the Galaxy so people were willing to forgive some of the bad ones. But when you have a series of bad movies like with Phase Four, then it's a lot harder to justify it when everything is just bad

[@spitfiremark1a768]

Great to hear Bowlestrek again.

[@UnleashthePhury]

It’s both - as a writer, I don’t see how you can write a 19-film story that concludes with half the universe dying, being brought back to life, and the main character sacrificing himself to make it all happen and still have more to say. As an audience member, I don’t know what else you want me to pay attention to. If they can deal with half the universe being killed, there’s literally no problem they can’t solve. So why do I need to watch?

[@doctormeatball7618]

Captain Manpower needs a trilogy of movies and a Netflix series ASAP!

[@Akm72]

First episode: the good captain Manpower gets shown up by his teenage daughter who turns out to be better at everything than he is and Manpower turns out to be a supporting character in his own franchise.🙄

[@michaelbeasley8716]

I can never get enough of Drinker clowning on Mike Zeroh. It has me rolling on the floor any and laughing every signle time, even if I'm listen to a video I've heard like 10 times. For a brief second I wondered to myself if I should feel bad about laughing at someone making fun of another person? Maybe in other circumstances it might be so, but it is so very spot on what Drinker says about the guy, and even more than that it is so very funny; probably because it is so on point. Its the perfect example of "content" and/or "content for content's sake"... every video is between 9:24 and 9:42 minutes/seconds ; in every video he reads this awkward and cringe inducing self promotion script near the beginning eve video, around the same time mark in every video. And the way he always says today i will be talking about such and such, then names who its created by, who produced it; who directed it; etc. Like he is trying to get their attention so that he can feel validated and also ask them to be his friend.s Then after his intro he talks about day to day coporate drama in the Disney work offices. And if you internets reach for anything he's talking about, chances are it doesn't exist. He appears to just make shit up. Buts its worth it having seen some of the guys stuff over the year (I found him first a few months before Last Jedi came out, while looking for information/plot guess and such)

[@quasarleon4645]

We went from creative filmmakers and visionaries ... to businessmen/woman and activists .

[@HeavyTopspin]

I'd almost say we're looking at the "dying embers" of the American film industry. I'm 52, and when I'm more excited about a Japanese anime about a guy with a chainsaw sticking out of his face than I am about the newest offerings from Marvel, Star Wars, and even Lord of the Rings... and can't even find the desire to finish those series!!! ...it's telling. Even the new Avatar, my first thought is "neat, guess I'll watch that when it makes its way to a streaming service I subscribe to", and I can hardly be the only person who feels this way.

[@jorijoestar4998]

How can I miss you if you don't go away?

[@THERHINO8624]

it's incredibly difficult to have both high quality and high volume in anything tbh. there are finite resources and they will inevitably be spread too thin

[@garanceadrosehn9691]

Marvel should have taken a break and write out *multiple* movies before filming any of them, so that they could make sure that set of movies will make sense together. And they could build character arcs which lasts across movies. And also take enough time on CGI and special effects so that they'll *look* good!

[@AS-fu1kd]

We're not burnt out from the things we love, we're burnt out from companies destroying the things we love

[@aviewer774]

I think this conversation pretty much proves that it's both. Which side is really up to the individual since I'm tired of super hero anything. I still haven't checked out the boys because I don't care about super heros anymore even if its well written (yes i know season 2 n 3 are bad apparently but I still don't care) And I hear Andor isn't bad but don't give a shit anymore because I do get burn out for even good things

[@ferrarriohh]

Same. I know The Boys S3 is just sitting there waiting for me... I can't commit. I had zero rush to watch Batman, got it on 4k bluray long after it's theatrical release. There is an element of superhero fatigue at play, and bad writing is like gasoline on the whole empire.

[@Neags]

I agree there should have been a break after endgame, however the problem is money was clearly too tempting, and the MCU screwed their own schedule. With Spiderman (seen as an epilogue) and then Black widow who was already dead. then almost immediately they were launching the tv shows so there was no time to breathe.

[@bobsmith5185]

If the output was excellent, people would watch, regardless of quantity / frequency of output. Franchises only need a break if they’ve already messed up.

[@Liberator130]

11:45 - Isn't Mauler's argument predicated on the idea that A) recommendations from people he respect equates to a movie being good (because I've been burned before by people who I trusted on that matter), and B) that good films will make money and be popular (and we have plenty of examples where good films did not even break even)?

[@EastyyBlogspot]

See I could never get burned out by being entertained, trouble is I have not been entertained by marvel for a while and star wars a long time

[@Jamal-jv8yc]

The time between products to make it special is an interesting argument. Making it special doesn’t bring in revenue. Getting and retaining a fanbase does that. With the change in culture with streaming services many are used to bingeing product. They don’t want to wait. The percentage of audience that comes with the specialness is far outweighed by those lost due to the low attention span and people having moved on with the long hiatus between products to other products.

[@ferrarriohh]

I really do have superhero fatigue. Its part bad writing, but also The Boys season 3 has been out for awhile and I haven't even bothered. I made it 10 minutes into Morbius on Netflix, but I somehow watched ALL of Netflix's Cowboy Bebop.

[@mrcliff3709]

I quit after season 1. While I did enjoy the first season I just was not bothered to not watch the other seasons

[@ferrarriohh]

@@mrcliff3709 i think 2 really ramps it up. But if you don’t like Mark Millar style superheroes it def isn’t for you. It goes off the rails

[@greebj]

If you are gripped by Antony Starr's Homelander you'll be able to put up with the rest of the crescendo of silliness in s3 & 4.

[@metalsasquatch3410]

There's so many new great books and stories they can pull from. Writers don't even have to be original, just pick good stories to turn into films!!

[@RageDaug]

"Burnout" is an excuse for bad writing. As long as you still have good ideas and good writing, people don't get burnt out. When you run out of ideas, you jump the shark. And bad writing pushes everyone away.

[@noneed4me2n7]

Wish people making the shows would seek out talented folks and let them have a crack at making new IPs that aren’t beholden to what’s come before. I’d say it’s fine to play in established lore but few seem concerned with stuff like continuity and attention to detail, which tends to drive thinking people nuts.

[@JaeTheGent]

They said they were doing this back in 2015, none of this should stun or surprise anyone.

[@The_High_SeAs]

Everything was already written for them, all they had to do was adapt what was already written. All they had to do was copy the old pages and print money.

[@pinegulf]

Agreed. It's the writing. So much is in production. There is just so much talent to go around. Can't hire good writers if there aren't any and there is no time to work.

[@Hollyclown]

My stance, if a good franchise looks like its burning out, you should stop, take a step back, and take the time to fix underlying issues. But really, I don’t even think they care at this point.

[@Kevin-dl6nf]

Taking a break from production releases is organically done when you have an interest in quality vs quantity tbh. The time it takes to go from one to the next if the writing and quality was really important to them would be expected as it takes time to make something that is quality.

[@Lelldorin84]

First generation builds it Second generation runs it Third generation destroys it

[@OGSF_Apoc]

I'm not burned out, nor fatigued. I'm hungry for ANY star wars that ignores the sequel trilogy. I'm hungry for anything that remains true to the original concepts. No race swaps. No gender swaps. Just Lucas-era star wars, done by real fans for fans, and anything that Kennedy or the Storygroup is linked to can go in the trash, instantly. BOTH, Marvel and Star Wars have forgotten what a "hero," is.

[@jonljacobi]

Not taking the one chance to reunite Luke, Leia, and Hans has to rank as one of the biggest cinematic crimes in history. Who in the world didn't want to see that?

[@DudeAwes0m3]

Hans Olo is my favourite SW character

[@doctorspook4414]

Dumb-asses who wanted to "subvert" our expectations and maniacal narcissists who thought they could make something better, never understanding that it was the characters, not the sfx that made the original star wars so special to so many.

[@doctorspook4414]

@@DudeAwes0m3 Han's blaster was a modified naazi pistol, so he could've been a Hans after all! 🤣

[@Wolfman7870]

Kinel had the best answer. Take your time and do it right.

[@justhanditover]

The only thing people are tired of is crap

[@paulstockton7121]

I don't believe there's such a thing as franchise fatigue. And I use soap operas as an example. Some of these shows have been going on for decades.

[@greggibson33]

The general public didn't get sick of it..... they grew up.

[@bighand1530]

That may play a factor. But i dunno about that being the only driving factor.

[@greggibson33]

@@bighand1530 It wasn't meant as the only factor. It's a general observation that most of the demo for Super Hero movies eventually grows out of it. They mature and become interested in something new. The toy you played with when you were 5 becomes boring at 10. The Drinker even touched upon it by saying "he was done."

[@bighand1530]

@@greggibson33 There is plenty of adults who are into superhero movies/the superhero genre. But yeah, even among those people, the interest does slow down as time goes on and it’s not just superhero movies/content they are into.

[@danielmedela8725]

Here is a selling spin for free, Disney: the first X-men movie in which Cyclops, Rogue and Storm feel like their real selves.

[@Arthas30000]

It's both fatigue and a lack of good films. People were genuinely excited for Love & Thunder, and actually liked Gor in that movie; it just so happened that it was a poorly written film with idiotic jokes that has done nothing new for the genre. That's what it seems these new *MCU films and shows are doing - they add nothing new to the table (if anything they detract from already existing IPs) and make it harder to get into the genre.

[@bighand1530]

I do wanna see Antman and the Wasp Quantumania and Thunderbolts.

[@RenR70]

Disney got too much money invested, no way they take a break, they need a return on investment immediately.

[@jackdeviant2025]

It's fatigue from bad writing. The MCU had a good ten year run, people weren't complaining (nearly as much) until phase 4, and while I would argue good things have still come out of phase 4, the bad writing has infected it more and more as it went on. Star wars honestly went to shit pretty much right after force awakens, there was still some potential... And then Leia flew through space, and it's been an uphill battle ever since. Ironically the star wars shows were doing better but even they couldn't keep up after the cinematic crapshoot. Both series need a break that Disney will NOT give them. They will milk the cow of its blood and flesh till it is nothing but bone.

[@shaunprawn88]

The writers and producers are inept and have been hired solely on their political stance rather than their talent.

[@emhu2594]

Nepotism. The politics is all empty pandering that can be cut for China and Saudi Arabia.

[@GibberMuzagi]

The problem with the burnout argument is: there was a break. Spiderman Far From Home come out in Summer 2019 and WandaVision/Black Widow came out in Winter 2020/Summer 2021. The M-She-U absolutely killed it.

[@ChadJac1186]

It's not franchise fatigue. People are just sick and tired of having politics shoved into escapism. If the content was more akin to phases 1 and 2, people would still be excited for it.

[@Matt-416]

I too, do not think it's franchise fatigue.. "If they could could bring in the right people, bringing it back and start telling stories" instead of some contrived allegorical message. It could be a billion dollar franchise. Unfortunately, that can be said for a lot of franchise universes. Not all... But most. Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek, Fallout, Tolkien, Resident Evil, Marvel, DC, Cyberpunk, Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Terminator, Aliens, etc....etc... It's too easy. It's right there, it's already written and framed by some of the greatest minds.

[@Jamal-jv8yc]

5 MCU movies per year wasn’t a problem for the audience. The vast majority will watch a movie a month, if it’s a quality product. The burnout may be a problem for the writers running out of ideas. I’m the audience, I’m not burnt out. I have apathy from the piss poor products that are the M-She-U.

[@rodrigop.browne4979]

ANDOR gets better and better every chapter. May save the entire franchise face!

[@jefflang4029]

100%. Superb show and it's really not getting the attention or credit that it deserves.

[@thepoeticbutcher3370]

@@jefflang4029 ….probably because of Disney..

[@peterkrochmalni673]

But the character is already dead, why bother? He wasn’t interesting in rogue one and he is not even interesting here. Fact is, he is forgettable and mostly forgotten. He’s a nobody.

[@xLeeroycranex]

@@peterkrochmalni673 Yeah, I agree. That's probably why people don't care about the show. It should have been called "Rise of the Rebellion" or something else because Andor is super bland. Otherwise, I think it's just okay. Like Drinker said, solid but not extraordinary.

[@peterkrochmalni673]

@@xLeeroycranex not to mention that the Rise of the Rebellion was already shown and done in Star Wars Rebels.

[@rahn45]

If the writing is good people will stick with the franchise forever. Star Wars had the extended universe, people stuck with it forever, until the writing got bad. Star Trek had good writing, people stuck with it forever, until the writing got bad. Every single anime people will stick with forever until the writing gets bad.

[@ltsmash1200]

I completely agree they should have taken a 5 year break after endgame. Not only would that have given people a breather but they would have had 5 years to see what happens with movies with The Message interjected vs just making good movies and it could have prevented the MCU from going that direction. At least to the degree it has.

[@Ickygrunt]

The funny thing is Spider-Man fitigue has not set in they are spaced out enough and the last 3 films have been amazing

[@B0mber44]

It’s like having your favourite meal for dinner every night for months. You’ll eventually get sick of it. But if you stop for a while, the first time you have it again, it will taste incredible.

[@mrcliff3709]

Why I make some meals I like only once in awhile.

[@B0mber44]

@@mrcliff3709 Yep. What is your favourite meal? Mine is a homemade chicken parmigiana with ham and pizza sauce with a barbecue sauce drizzle on top. Bit of salad on the side as well.

[@mrcliff3709]

@@B0mber44 homemade lasagna. It's a recipe a friend of mine showed me how to make. Make it from scratch.

[@B0mber44]

@@mrcliff3709 nice, I love lasagna.

[@dars5229]

There's a great joke in Frasier where they're putting together a jingle for his radio show and he ends up trying to turn it into this big orchestral event. Niles reminds him that less is more and Frasier replies "Yes, but if less is more think how much more more will be!" And I think that perfectly encapsulates modern media.

[@doctormeatball7618]

Speak with your wallet

[@blatherama]

I also think it's that now you have to have seen bad tv shows to understand the movies. "Agents of SHIELD" worked as a stand alone show that acknowledged the events of the MCU but didn't actually participate in them. You didn't need to see AoS to understand "Endgame".

[@ColemanJRimer]

That's true. It especially doesn't work when the tv shows include Ms. Marvel and She Hulk, both of which would be better used as torture.

[@Kernfederate]

The quality/burnout point towards the end really is true, and it perfectly describes the whole western movie burnout of the 50's and 60's...have you seen a lot of them of them? They're 95% garbage writing-wise, acting-wise, and design-wise. We remember the good ones of those of that era, but the majority were attempts at catching the popularity of the other ones without the realization that the good ones had a lot of effort put into them.

[@ethansnyder3401]

True, but that wasn't the point he was trying to make. He was saying it was because of oversaturation when you are correct in pointing out that it was a matter of quality.

[@Kernfederate]

@@ethansnyder3401 Oh no definitely. Just threw this out as another parallel between the two.

[@namberak]

Interesting; I happen to be passing through bella Italia now and pulled this up to watch and the intro KZbin ad was for … Wakanda Forever. Only better than the ads at home because it was in breathless Italian. ;-)

[@old_fritz]

I have another theory altogether, why we get the content we get. It is to do with bournout, but thats only a sideproduct or rather one small part of the equation. The real problem is the concept of the francise it self. A francise is the shurest way to get money but if all studios do is francises and the same kind of francises at that, you get writers that don't care about the stuff they have to write. Why? Because the only way to get a gig these days as a scriptwriter is as a writer for the 2-3 big studios, those studios only do superhero flics, but you as a writer need a gig so you take the job even if you dislike superheroes. The result is bored and disinterested writers writing for a francise that is slowly dying. Probl a bit incoherent but I hope I got my point across

[@SkandsKvist]

I think a lot of good points were made during this conversation. My personal oppinion is you CAN have too much of a good thing. Maybe not for the hardcore viewer, but definitely for the casual viewer. Today a casual can't find his way around all the marvel movies/TV-shows and Star Wars movies/TV-shows. What to watch first, which order etc. I think this loss of contact with the source material can be postponed if the writing and stories are good, because you remember them more

[@dudesayingthings]

DDay is spot on. Marvel movies used to be EVENTS. I used to actually look up upcoming Marvel movies on every Jan 1 and set google calendar reminders for the same. Now they're being forced down our throats. AND they're crap.

[@GoldenPhil]

I enjoyed how polite everyone on the video behaved.

[@takatamiyagawa5688]

1:26 Drinker smirks at "go away".

[@teh_durgenburn4968]

I think that it’s kind of both a mix between burnout and writing fatigue because I see it as every media to be successful needs to justify its existence and modern screenwriters don’t think that’s the case. As time goes on the general public’s standards for a genre increase as time goes on while studios get more uncomfortable with losing what they have so they stop taking risks and it sort of turns into a bland mess that is slowly dying and will never reach the heights it once was

[@runevi]

A shared universe is a lot of fun when it's one or two little interstitial scenes. When I have to watch several shows to FULLY understand what the heck is going on in a movie it's like: screw you. I'm not doing homework! House of the Dragon is one show, one hour, I don't need to even have Game of Thrones to fully understand it.

[@marcz5809]

They need to make the movies or whatever they make actually count. Make the content more of an event, write compelling stories, spread out the release of these events to make them feel more special, and then the audiences will be back on board

[@eddydaniels9842]

Going with “Writers fatigue”+ “ reimaginer’s with 2-4 projects to their career credits”+ “hiring and placing employees who Dislike or Hate The Material” + “over political agenda down customers 👁 &👂“ + “CEO’s”