DTSwiss 240EXP Ratchet Failure - 36T to 54T

Sometimes curiosity takes over and you begin experiments with something which works as is. And you make it no longer working, haha!
10 kilometers on 54T ratchet, until it slipped and got broken. Sharing the outcomes. Do you know potential reasons of how it could have happened? Let us know in the comments.
Ratchet set: r2-bike.com/DT-SWISS-Service-...
Ratchet removal tool: r2-bike.com/DT-SWISS-Disassem...
(Yes, you can buy aftermarket one, BUT considering the torqueness required, it has to be really, really solid material, in order not to slip it off. Thus, use it at your own risk)
@IG: / tom10crafted
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[@tom10crafted]

UPDATE: After contacting support on R2-bike, showing the videos and explaining the issue - they reach out with DTSwiss and I received back: new ratchet + freehub + bearings. I was confirmed that procedure of assembly is 100% correct. Now with that in mind, I don't know whether I am going to try 54T again, but at least it was a nice move by DTSwiss. The hub I have is not affected by previous generation of issues. Other maintenance stuff here: kzbin.info/aero/PL67TKb1Z1m83Iv3oybnVROWsn-ZLfZNii

[@karolisliutkevicius2223]

Randomly found this video and wanted to share my experience! I’ve had issues both with original DT Swiss 54t ratchets and aliexpress ZTTO 54t ratchets. Two pairs of each failed on me when climbing on a mountain bike. Granted I was pedalling standing up and with a lot of force. Nonetheless the issue is clear to me - the bigger the number of teeth = the smaller they are and are easier to break/chip. These ratchets with a lot of teeth need to be very precisely made and maintained well to work well. ZTTO even states officially that they will not sell a 60t ratchet as it’s “unstable” and “most of the test units did not pass the durability test”. That’s why when bikepacking I tend to choose 36t or even 18t ratchets with DT Swiss wheels - the teeth are way bigger than on the 54t ratchet and are very hard to break. Recently DT Swiss announced a new ratchet system with high engagement called DEG. It seems they managed to solve the problem by making the whole ratchet ring bigger :). So now even when there’s a lot of teeth they are still strong because they’re bigger. Gerų kelių! P. S. Labai smagu matyti geros kokybės dviračių turinį su fainu tonu. Ačiū! P. P. S. The best way to remove the ratchet ring from the wheel I found is to buy a ratchet ring removal tool with a regular nut on the back and use a battery powered impact gun with a socket ;D.

[@tom10crafted]

Dėkui, Karoli! Apart from size, which is surely the case, I think 54T requires very specific precision, in order to make work. DEG seems to be not only bigger in diameter, but also completely different design with double sided springs - which most likely holds all in place and reduces chances of slippage! By using impact gun you are running bit of risk to damage your ratchet! How? In case of removal tool slipping - you get an idea what would happen, haha!

[@karolisliutkevicius2223]

@@tom10crafted Haha, so far I had no issues with the impact gun! Makes bearing changes super easy and I don’t need to go around the house looking for a random pipe to stick on my wrench for more leverage ;D. Those DT Swiss rings get pretty stuck sometimes.

[@tom10crafted]

@@karolisliutkevicius2223 haha, been there, done that, thus bought proper extension bar for that - and actually, even with it things are pretty much ON THE EDGE :D

[@barryrainey143]

DT Swiss directions are to leave the bearing protruding 1 - 2 mm out from the ratchet when installing the bearing. That 1 - 2 mm reduces free space and puts more force on the engagement. Stretching the spring a little too adds additional pressure on the ratchet engagement.

[@tom10crafted]

I am very much interested how that bearing installation works - BECAUSE - when removed the ratchet ring originally from the hub - it was far from 1-2mm outside. Meaning, it either presses in when installing the ratchet, OR - it even originally did not came this way:)

[@fusionlabs6215]

The EXP ratchet is bolted directly to the hub body, so the depth of the bearing insertion shouldn't matter that much and should have no impact on the ratchet mechanism.

[@tom10crafted]

@@fusionlabs6215 I had this impression too, because if you leave too much out of it, while inserting the ratchet it will be pulled in anyways

[@ivanteo1973]

had the exact same 240 exp and same bike as yours. changed from 34T to 54T. 7400 KM and self serviced 3 times already with no single issue.

[@tom10crafted]

That sounds like a miracle to me! :D

[@xcracer87]

When installing the bearing on the 54 tooth ratchet, did you leave one to 2 mm of protrusion on that bearing?

[@tom10crafted]

Pretty much sure I haven’t:) why it might be required and what it gives, Eric?

[@kenh.3857]

Yes purchase DT swill Hub grease, it is thin and makes a difference. I use 54 tooth in my road bike, but that bike does not see the high torque loads as quickly. On the road bike, you do not go from coasting to such high loads so often, you usually have a load already on the drive train. I suggest with MTB use the 36 tooth engagement, it engages better and does not have so many problems/issues.

[@tom10crafted]

Hey Ken, thanks for the answer. The package came with white tube of red DT Swiss grease - thus, I assume greasing was not a problem. The only thing I can think off what could be needed - doing something special with the spring? Like pulling it a bit, as POTENTIALLY in the plastic package it could have been squeezed? As I am surely not the first who tried 54T on mtb - I wonder how others succeeded! :D

[@MUTP-zq1oc]

@@tom10crafted yes most of us pull about 2mm more stretch to the spring. Be it 240 or 350. I even do it on the goldix ratchet hub with 60t ratchet teeth. Never have engagement issues.

[@user-zp7qi1nq5c]

I amd using 54T on my road bike and I climb a very stiff mountain on average of 12% the pedal kick back probably damaged it or the force that is why it's disengaging while pedaling.. Is it the rachet or the hub? I checked bought and it seems no damaged and yet still disangaging

[@tom10crafted]

If should be the ratchet rings itself - see if there are some debris from them once freehub is removed

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

I have 60t "upgrades" the cheap ones in a set of original DT also on a clone 240 and they are fine, I really was expecting a ton of wear. I originally purchased the real DT 54t for about 150$ and I chipped a tooth since I couldn't get one I ordered the cheap stuff from amazon and it's still okay 8 months later on my full suspension. Head scratching

[@tom10crafted]

That is least what you could expect from happening:)

[@madched]

I think pedal kickback from the suspension leverage could cause stress on the ratchets. I've though of updating to the EXP system but my friends said it it isn't broken, don't fix it.

[@tom10crafted]

That can definitely be the reason, yet its tempting to try it out again for me 😅 But if such failure would happen on the race then I would be angry on myself 😵

[@thundergaming4314]

Had a similar issue. Turns out the dt Swiss grease in cooler temps is a little more viscous and thus not allow the teeth to fully “seat” for maximum tooth engagement sometimes. I have since switched to philwood tenacious oil, very thin but remains stringy, have used for over 10k miles on both road and mountain no issues. For reference I’m a big boy at 200lbs and can easily crack 1500w. So they see some use.

[@tom10crafted]

Thanks for the tip! How have you landed into alternative oil selection?

[@user-nn4wj8gk9s]

I went up to 54t on a emtb and it lasted about 100 miles.dt said 54 t is not suitable for ebike .this information wasn’t available when purchasing!you were very lucky to be able to remove the nut .im very disappointed in dt.

[@tom10crafted]

The nut is really a tough one - you definitely need long enough extender or steel pipe to get it moving:)

[@a8wsm322]

I had 54T on all my DH and enduro bikes that also have a lot of pedal kickback, 6 years on one bike, 5 and 4 on the other two bikes, never been serviced once and they have been under hell of abuse, still running just fine but I have DT swiss 350's

[@tom10crafted]

The fact that it has never been serviced maybe is the answer? 😅

[@bike29ner]

Just the EXP I reckon, I would just stick to non EXP 350s. Proven over time. The chain growth/pedal kickback of the bike I ride (specialized enduro) is one of the worse you can find on frame designs and I use it for DH and I haven't broken a chain or a ratchet (yet). @@tom10crafted

[@FreeRangeChicken_MTB]

My brand new DT350 54T ratchet failed only 6 miles into the first ride. I made a warranty claim with Dt Swiss and they are shipping me a replacement. I'm a little scared of using the 54T now, but I'll give it a try and keep my 36T in my pack just in case :)

[@tom10crafted]

I been too once I received replacement. It’s been sitting for awhile until my 36T slipped - then it was time to check the premises 😅😅 Long story short - like 200km afterwards second 54T did the same - not gonna try my luck with them anytime soon 🙈

[@FreeRangeChicken_MTB]

Oh no! lol I have friends who swear by them and tell me they're bulletproof. I'm not convinced and your experience now scares me more 🤦‍♂@@tom10crafted

[@tom10crafted]

@@FreeRangeChicken_MTB maybe I was unlucky, or maybe it is as it is, haha!

[@jeffroom]

Im using Dt 240s HUB on my RB. I can feel the drag even I've change to a new set of bearings? Any idea why is drag? Cause by the SEAL RING?

[@tom10crafted]

Can you try to narrow down where the drag comes from? Good way would be to spin the wheel without cassette with freehub on and then without the freehub

[@jeffroom]

@@tom10crafted Hmmm, when i pedal i can feel the drag is like someone pulling u.

[@tom10crafted]

@@jeffroom you can tell of this is coming from the wheels if they spin easily or not - otherwise its something else for sure

[@MrAbgmacho]

For roadbike..which one better 36t or 54t rachet system

[@tom10crafted]

@@MrAbgmacho I think 54T would be an ideal scenario

[@RichardsWorld]

In the US we normally call that tool a breaker bar.

[@tom10crafted]

Tbh I had no idea how that can be called!! 😅😅🤘🏼

[@ivanteo1973]

i mounted the tool on vice place the wheel on top and rotate the wheel to remove the collar. No long bar required. I was suspecting you did not assemble it properly the first time when you changed the ratchet. And the slippage damaged the teeth.

[@tom10crafted]

If you have vice around, that helps - if you don't then long bar is the only option to extend the arm. Do you have an idea what could have been wrong during assembly? My guesses are only two: 1. Ratchet bearing pressed-in too much? 2. Overtightened ratchet ring inside the hub? There are really no other options. Original grease, proper order of things, etc.. Please let me know your thoughts on this - thanks!

[@ivanteo1973]

@@tom10crafted A vice is essential for bike mechanics especially if you do your own teardown/modifications. On second thought, did DT Swiss verified that the ratchet is genuine part? I know some user experienced slippage when replace it with fake china components. Softer material/ lower height of the teeth and lower spring force can result in the slippage under high load. another thing is that is your exp hub the newer batch? ot the old ones kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmHWqmqCo9iajJI

[@tom10crafted]

@@ivanteo1973 I have purchased 54T set from R2bike, thus I have no doubts it is original part. The hub is from updated versions, nothing that goes under "replaceable" serial number releases. Looking at this video above - he was very, very generous with grease compared how much of it I used, haha!

[@ivanteo1973]

@@tom10crafted FYI, i used very little grease as well. The slippage has to do with the teeth profile. By the way are you able to zoom into the teeth profile? were they damaged?

[@tom10crafted]

@@ivanteo1973 they were not like damaged… they were shattered:) A lot of debris from the thinnest side of the teeths

[@elononoras1902]

Well, I have stripped the 18T, the original DT Swiss one (it came with the wheels). Same scenario, steep climb, peddling while standing. First guess, these are not that great after all. Second guess, lots of torque forced hub slightly out of place, since it all just pushed on and just axle holds it together. Maybe some frames flex to much, some teeth loose contact and the rest just fail under force. After this failure I bought a 54T set, so far so good. Just about 300km on it. But yesterday I drove past that climb and decided I am not gonna try it :/

[@tom10crafted]

It is crazy to be able to slip 18T - they are enormously chunky! I suspect that sometimes it could be not tight enough cassette + wheel axle? That leaves room for end cap to move potentially?

[@fusionlabs6215]

My wild guess is the spring doesn't have enough tension. Have you considered trying to slightly stretch the spring?

[@tom10crafted]

The thing is how to know if the spring is extended enough? There is no such thing like "extended spring" desired width or something.. And when I installed new one, it came with new spring as well - thus, if spring compression would be something important, they would pack it in some container package IMO

[@fusionlabs6215]

@@tom10crafted I could see this problem happening with the EXP hub. Relying on one spring is not a good idea. The older design with 2 springs sounds more reliable to me. If for whatever reason one of the springs gets stuck, or doesn't react on time, loses flex, there's another spring that will make up for it. The EXP design also makes it very difficult to replace your ratchets. I think overall the EXT design is perfect example of what over engineering looks like.

[@tom10crafted]

@@fusionlabs6215 Have you heard about their latest hubs? DEG ones

[@fusionlabs6215]

@@tom10craftedthe DEG is great, the only downside is 30g extra weight. I think their ratchets are similar to the non EXP version but slightly larger with 90t. I dig the DEG. If your want even more points of engagement, check out Qvist (also adopted by the Elite Wheels Helix drive hub / there's a patent dispute). It's a beautiful design.

[@tom10crafted]

@@fusionlabs6215 reason being I mentioned DEG, is that it seems to return back second spring - and from design it might be exactly for slipping reasons. I am not sure if I am crazy about engagement, with experiences I had it feels like a risk, haha!

[@scottkovacs4904]

Springs is around the wrong way. Large open end of spring against bearing and smaller open end against ratchet.

[@tom10crafted]

That applies for older generation of DT Swiss. EXP has spring both ends equal🤘🏼

[@ghostdog6471]

Shit :( Did you buy original ratchet? I saw in other videos that dt swiss have there own special grease. The spring is very important how you put it back. Other than that, I'm out of ideas.

[@tom10crafted]

Yes man, it was original kit, with the grease included. As I changed it for the first time, watched N videos to make sure I don't screw things down - well, didn't helped :D The only downfall is that I have no idea what was the reason

[@ghostdog6471]

@@tom10crafted, did you put the springs in the same order you took them out?

[@tom10crafted]

The set came with a new spring, thus I added it - and in updated 240hubs freehub has only single spring - which at least by the looks is both-directional (not conical like 2-spring setup)

[@tditech]

Probably pedal kickback from the rear suspension it's the problem... Dt swiss explains that on them website. The engagement angle will work different depending the pedal kickbak and kinematics of each bike. So the balanced choice is 36t

[@tom10crafted]

But surely enough there are people who successfully ride 54T on full suspension bikes? Otherwise it should be mentioned as no go or something 😅😅🪓

[@ghostdog6471]

Do you know that our original alloy rims have more points of engagement than the dt swiss? That's why I decided to go for duke rims with madmax hubs for now.

[@tom10crafted]

Yeah, those formula hubs sounds harsh! Yet, they are pawls, not star ratchet if I am not mistaken? Which Duke's you are gonna to take and how much do you weight?

[@ghostdog6471]

@tom10crafted I'm thinking about Duke Lucky Jack SLS4 6TERS. I'm 70 kg, It should be fine for my weight for total of 1.200 kg rims. If I decide to go for rope spokes, the weight is going to fall even more.

[@tom10crafted]

With your weight you could consider going with Ultra's of Jack's as well!

[@ghostdog6471]

@tom10crafted , Yes, I thought about it, but then again I think I will have more peace of mind if i stick to wider rims 30mm or so, even though on this Modell rims, the rear one is thinner at 28 mm compared to the 30mm front.

[@vin374]

Looks like your spring is upside down

[@tom10crafted]

How it could be when its symetric?

[@arnasslotkus7878]

What is the point of this "downgrade"? 36 tooth wasn't working properly?

[@tom10crafted]

Originally it was 36T - thus I wanted to upgrade for 54T just to see what difference it brings. Because it failed, I had to downgrade to 36T. The main logic behind this is faster engagement. If you think about the "ratchet ring" with 36 teeths, on 360 degrees circumference it creates engagement at 10degrees intervals (360/36). With 54T it adds more frequency (360/54). However, it was more out of curiosity, than seeking for gains :)) Well, and nicer sound, too!

[@arnasslotkus7878]

@@tom10crafted I understand theoretical technical side off this upgrade, that this is faster engagement. But for me It is more important feeling between speed and gearing. It is super enoying when I chose wrong gear after coasting and it is to hard for me to go uphill or to easy after down hill. I think we are wasting a lot of time in these situations. What You can win with faster engagement in MTB? especially now when You can shift gears under the load, that means You do not need disengagement. Ofcourse if you have very good feeling between speed and gearing it can be that 54T will give you some benefits. Curiosity always good :) BTW nice and interesting videos. :)

[@tom10crafted]

@@arnasslotkus7878 I wonder too what benefits it could have had bring to the table - but 10km's was not enough to tell any difference at all, apart that it sounded more harsh and cooler, haha!

[@phonghoang9402]

It's just a different sound, isn't it, my friend?

[@tom10crafted]

36T and 54T sound is different by default. What you hear here, is not a clean sound of broken ratchet:)

[@phonghoang9402]

@@tom10crafted But when I want to change ratchet 18 to 54, will the feeling be better or will it just change the sound?

[@tom10crafted]

@@phonghoang9402 yes, the feeling will be also bit different - more instant kick shall we say:)

[@phonghoang9402]

@@tom10crafted thank you.