DYNEEMA [Part 4]: Installing Synthetic Standing Rigging | Sailing Wisdom

[@SV-POCS]

front drivers side bumper should have 1 small circle or square of plastic you can remove and screw in a tow eye, it wont be hard to miss, there should also be another tow eye cover on the rear bumper on the drivers side.

[@RiggingDoctor]

Good to know!

[@henryk8253]

When Herb talks about Deadeyes, it reminds me disk-shaped Deadeyes (with three holes inside) made out of wood, like they used on old sailing ships.

[@RiggingDoctor]

They were the original inspiration but lignum vitae is so expensive!

[@nicolasfilsdejean]

Thanks for all this DIY step by step explanation series of videos. I need to replace all my standing rigging and nobody where I live (Corsica) knows how to...so I’m just going to throw myself at it 😮..... as pertaining to pulling the construction strech out : I was thinking of using my windlass maybe ?????

[@RiggingDoctor]

It will help, but you will need a lot more force and time. You can also take out the constructional stretch with the lashings when you set it up. It just makes the initial setup seem like a lot of creep happening but it’s really just the stretch coming out. If you have questions along the way, feel free to email me at [e-mail]

[@fionamccormick111]

Fantastic series - thank you so much for taking the mystery out of the switch and showing how we could end up with just turnbuckkes for tensioning. Really informative and love the way you explain the pitfalls and workarounds: well done! 👏👏👏

[@RiggingDoctor]

Thank you very much! We’re going to be making another series on designing and building a complete rig when we rebuild our Alberg 30. It’s our next project!

[@Hindukushsailing]

I just used your other videos to follow along and make eye splices last night. Cheers.

[@RiggingDoctor]

Great! Glad they helped out :)

[@HandyMan657]

Whenever someone has rigging questions I always refer them to the Rigging Doctor. Thanks, Herbie for another fine lesson.

[@SuperRhysevans]

There will be a screw-in tow eye with the spare wheel in that Fiat, then look for a small cover in the rear and/or front bumper to screw that tow eye into 👍

[@braithmiller]

Then I wonder if the shock load could bend the unibody.

[@RiggingDoctor]

That was my concern. Also what to tie it to in the marina?

[@braithmiller]

@@RiggingDoctor If you do loose good reason, all camera angles are a must. Sorry I thought that bollard would hold, no I'm not a terrorist.

[@DowneastThunderCreations]

You've done it again, Herby! Thank you! 👍👍👍

[@RiggingDoctor]

You are very welcome

[@theromihs]

Thanks for all the info you share, your videos have helped me better understand synthetic rigging and increased my confidence in it. One thing that I have been wondering for some time is how a furling system could be installed over a synthetic stay, and if anyone has done it. Of course, one will have to figure out a way to protect the dyneema from the rotating elements to prevent fraying, etc..

[@RiggingDoctor]

People have told me that they are going to try it and that’s all I’ve heard. I have no information on how well it holds up. When we get back to the Chesapeake, I plan on doing some tests to see if various methods would work under a foil. Glad it was helpful!

[@Ariesdrone603]

I replaced my forestay and backstay with amsteel. Turns out I have these cool little things called winches on my boat. Threw a pulley on the mount, ran a line and pulled the forestay tight. Left it under tension and would return every hour or so and tighten it down some more. When it held tension, I knew I was done. Could have done the same using the mainsheet to a bow cleat.

[@guy.h]

yes, Herbie does it this way in his very old original videos. This is just another way.

[@PyeGuySailing]

Perfect explanation, did you ever explanation your mast climbing setup? I need a way to get up the mast under my own power.

[@RiggingDoctor]

Climbing a Sailboat Mast Safely and Unassisted kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5amdHewip6Embs This is the system I still use today!

[@gymcoachdon]

Just watched the 4 parts...amazed that they have such few views. Good info!

[@RiggingDoctor]

I’m glad you found it helpful :)

[@drummergirl9437]

Thanks for the info Herbie! Your videos are super informative and as a newbie to sailing, I find them incredibly helpful. I was wondering: is it more difficult to hoist a headsail with a synthetic stay and soft hanks, than a steel stay with bronze hanks? I only have experience with metal rigging, but am interested in eventually transitioning to synthetic. Thanks again for sharing your sailing wisdom!

[@RiggingDoctor]

Morgan Hansen hoisting is the same, the trouble is coming down. Bronze on steel practically slams down on the deck, but Dyneema on Dyneema stick a little at first and need a slight tug sometimes, then if falls down like a rock. For being such a slippery material, they seem to stick when under load. Having a downhaul tied to the head of the sail is very helpful for this, if the sail doesn’t want to come down, you can give it a tug instead of going forward to the luff of the sail to pull down.

[@sylvaingagnon3211]

Thanks Herb, if I could only get down to work on my Moody in Henderson Harbor, NY, I’d be starting on that rigging project. But who knows when the border will open.

[@tonyscriven7771]

Hi Herb thanks this has been a big help as I’m moving toward rerigging my boat with synthetic next rear. Question: having taken out the constructional (or whatever) stretch as you do on this video, how much gradual stretch/creep do you need to anticipate over the expected life of the stay say 8-10 years? Best, Tony.

[@RiggingDoctor]

In the first month or two, you might see a few inches. The first few days will be the worst as you will tighten it in the morning and it will be loose by lunchtime. After the first month or two, it will calm down and then be fine for years. Far off in the future, when it all goes loose (on a summer day, don’t worry about winter stretch as that will go right back in the springtime), the Dyneema has entered into its final phase of its lifecycle and needs to be replaced. Basically: Phase 1 is lots of creep and lasts a the first months, Phase 2 is when you are golden and lasts for years, Phase 3 is when it starts creeping again and is the sign that you have reached the end of the life for the Dyneema. If you have any other questions, please email me at [e-mail]. I would love to see pictures of your conversion as well!

[@rmcnabb]

I assume you're using Dynex Dux? Isn't that heat set for constructional stretch? Or are you using Amsteel Blue? Can you use Amsteel Blue for rigging? I haven't found an answer to this anywhere.

[@RiggingDoctor]

This is DM20. It’s much better than Dynex and way better compared to Amsteel

[@Liquid1024]

Great series! Super helpful! Thanks so much !

[@RiggingDoctor]

Glad it was of service for you

[@braithmiller]

Thanks much again. Will you show the chafe jacket install possibly?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It was in the Dyneema Part 3 around the 20 minute mark.

[@braithmiller]

@@RiggingDoctor thanks, possible watching all again as a set with keep cognitive cohesion… the things lost in this mind

[@sailinggaia3582]

Hey Herb, I'd like to inspect my chain-plates and was wondering if its okay to rely only on the babystays (or only shrouds) to hold the mast up while removing the plates ? Thanks !

[@RiggingDoctor]

It would be a good idea to set the halyards to hold the mast as temporary stays. Genoa halyard for the port shroud. Main halyard for the starboard shroud. Tighten the mainsheet to pull on the topping lift to act as the backstay. Be sure to keep the headstay setup during all of this.

[@sailinggaia3582]

@@RiggingDoctor thank you once more, master 🙏

[@CraigBrenizer]

Herb, at 1 minute, 45 seconds you show a thimble on toggle ping. How much of an issue is the point loading and what is the likelihood of that point load causing failure of the toggle (or the pin)? If the dyneema is tight when cold and warms up 20 or 30 degrees, how much additional stress added to the point loading?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I was worried about this when I first installed it and checked it often for the first year of its life. The thimble,even though it’s loaded to extremely high loads, did not fail, deform, or even develop a flat spot. It turns out that it’s not an issue and the thimble does a good job of making the Dyneema make a larger radius turn over the clevis pin. If you have it tight and then it warms up causing it to contract, it will get very tight! This won’t be the first point of failure, but the tang that the end of the stay attaches to is the next weakest link. The part that could break before is the chainplate if you have a rotten bulkhead, the tension could be enough to pull the chainplate up through the deck. If everything is sound, it won’t break, but it will stress the hell out of the rigging. If you do this regularly, it will cause premature failure of the rigging.

[@onnokok922]

Awesome! Learned so much from your videos. Ant reason not to use both a deadeye and a turnbuckle?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I couldn’t afford turnbuckles. If you can afford turnbuckles, you definitely want to use the combination. I left the lashings very long so that I could add turnbuckles gradually as I could afford them.

[@onnokok922]

@@RiggingDoctor thank you so much! Made my first deadeye and shroud to replace my inner forestay. Still need to make the soft hanks and get some kind of line for the flapping knot. Eventually I’d like to do the whole boat. Wish I could send pics, but perhaps I’ll go to your Patreon page. You’ve already been tremendous help. 🙏🏻

[@RiggingDoctor]

Glad we could help :)

[@nixxbox]

Hi there, Thanks for the video! Just so you know the next time: european cars do have strong points - no exceptions. They are required by law to have a tow point both front and back. A lot of cars have a consealed point on the bumper behind a small cover (usually on the right-hand side), where you can screw in the tow ring, which is stored somewhere in the car's trunk, probably together with the jack. Also, did you make this video unlisted intentionally? That would explain the low view count and why no one has pointed out the tow point on the car yet. What you cannot expect, however, is that a Fiat Panda will have the same stretching effect as F150 :) I wonder whether the abrupt stop could trigger the airbags

[@RiggingDoctor]

It’s still unlisted because we haven’t published the video yet but I wanted to make it available to people who are interested in making their rigging before I publish the video. I found the little door in the bumper but it was empty and I didn’t know where to find the tow ring. I was more worried of torquing the frame if I stopped the car suddenly with a yank from one corner.

[@nixxbox]

@@RiggingDoctor nah, these tiny cars don't have any frames - you'll twist the whole body

[@SailingInfidels]

What are you using for the chafe sleeve you have on your stay?

[@RiggingDoctor]

New England Ropes Chafe Sleeve

[@youtubeuser1052]

How much force is needed? A quick Amazon search shows a selection of come-alongs and chain falls for less than $100 depending on load rating. These are useful tools for a lot of things, so probably not a bad investment.

[@RiggingDoctor]

It depends on the boat and which stay, but generally while at rest, the tightest stay on a 40 foot sailboat will require around 5000 lbs. A 3 ton come along would be able to get that tension for you and you could then tie off the lashing and remove the come along. I would buy two so that you could do the stays in pairs and get the mast trued up more easily. They would be most helpful at removing the constructional stretch and helping to get the creep out before tying everything off!

[@eragonbaffel9518]

11:50 What about a roler furler? Is it possible to have a roller furler with Synthetic Standing Rigging?

[@dave-wk4t]

Fashionista socks. The Doc has it. 🤣

[@RiggingDoctor]

😎

[@jonathanoasis]

possibly could have installed a "top down furler" instead . . synthetic torsional line with free luff yet also allows furling on a drum in case of need when quick tacking.

[@RiggingDoctor]

That’s the workaround for having a furler with a synthetic headstay.

[@ozskipper]

Great video .. thanks

[@RiggingDoctor]

You are welcome

[@sirjohnpenny5625]

Just one thing, how you figure out the length need to be of dyneema before you attach to deck , before stretching ?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I hope that I covered that in a previous video. If not, careful measurement of the distance between the tang on the mast and the chainplate on the deck that way you can make the stay at the exact perfect length.

[@chhindz]

Hard to make this stay removable/repositionable?

[@braithmiller]

Good question not seen one yet. I may try it on an inner forestay addition to my boat, better than a cable when not in use. One thought was rigging similar to English etc smacks-cutters that have long retractable bowsprits. General observation from afar is they use compound block and tackle on deck for the inner. Similar long throw tensioners designed for gaff rigs can even be operated from the cockpit for shrouds, backstays. Something must work.

[@RiggingDoctor]

They can be done and are about as complicated as a steel setup (so not very bad once it’s all setup the first time). We had a removable inner forestay but made it a permanent setup since we never removed our stay in 9 years.

[@veleiroema]

Hi, I couldn't find a video on how to tighten dead eyes

[@veleiroema]

I found it, I found it, thank you. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5TXoZh8f5l0q7s

[@RiggingDoctor]

Excellent! Glad you found the video

[@jampasritalon4180]

What formula do you use to predict the eventual length. It would stink to be an inch too long or short!

[@RiggingDoctor]

The math was covered for Heat Set SK78. For DM20, it comes out about 8% shorter.

[@johnhewett2525]

Is there a reason why the stay cannot be pretensioned by say using a motor vehicle or tying off to a pile or wharf?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I normally do that with my old truck and a tree, but I was in Spain and the rental car didn’t have enough umph to do so. I have tried tying the line from boat cleat to dock and throwing it in reverse to yank the Dyneema tight, but it didn’t have enough speed to shock load it enough to make a difference. With the truck, I simply roll down a hull at about 2-3 mph (no more than 5 because it feels like hitting a wall) until the line tied to a massive old tree (with very strong roots and a board to prevent damaging the bark in place) goes tight and the truck slams to a stop. It is very jolting and I recommend wearing your seatbelt! Do this a few times and it will get all the stretch out. Then leave the truck “hanging” on the hull in neutral for a few days and this will get the creep out of the line. As the line creeps longer, the heavy truck simply rolls slightly farther down the hill. I like to mark the bottom side of the sidewall with a line of chalk so that I can measure how far the truck has rolled over the past few hours. When the truck stops rolling, that is when I consider it “pre-tensioned” and ready for installation. Sadly in Spain, I had no hill and no heavy vehicle. The pole I tied the stay to pulled out of the ground (thankfully the marina people didn’t notice). I was unable to get any creep or stretch out of the line. This stay was made of DM20 which is an amazing line. It barely had any creep at all. On our Atlantic crossing, I needed to tighten the turnbuckle about 1-2mm total due to creep making the stay longer. This was with the force of the staysail yanking on it endlessly in high winds. Heat set SK75 is my standard go-to for cost reasons, but it has a lot more creep. DM20 is the gold standard in my opinion.

[@thewanderingbox8253]

awesomeness

[@RiggingDoctor]

👍

[@ndw0013]

What brand(s) / suppliers do you recommend ordering dyneema from?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I recommend New England Ropes STS-HSR or Marlow DM20 I get the STS-HSR from West Marine and the DM20 direct from Marlow in the UK.

[@jrovalinoful]

Thanks for this video. Any books you can recommend for Dyneema and rigging DIY?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I haven’t finished my book yet, but this is a good collection of information on the topic: www.riggingdoctor.com/search?q=Synthetic%20standing%20rigging

[@charlespayne1061]

Very cool, would it be easier to drop the mast if you're doing all the stays at one time?

[@braithmiller]

I don’t think so even it could be if crane time was involved definitely counter productive. If you can step your own mast like trailerable sure.

[@RiggingDoctor]

Both points are true. Lowering the mast is a production that is easily avoided by climbing the mast many times. Now, for ease, having the mast down is much easier and less stressful to work on than doing it all aloft. When I rerig the Alberg, the mast will be down but it’s a deck stepped boat with a much smaller spar. On a keel stepped boat with a huge mast, it’s easier to work around it by going up.

[@charlespayne1061]

@@braithmiller thx,z I've seen people drop and it looks very involved lol .

[@charlespayne1061]

@@RiggingDoctor you know I saw a Albert 30 for sale a couple days ago nice little boat,.

[@RiggingDoctor]

I can’t wait to start working on it!

[@sailingelpulponegro230]

Love it but ended up watching Part 4 first because the playlist is out of order.

[@RiggingDoctor]

Thanks for the heads up! I’ll see what I can do

[@sidewithwerewolves]

could you also use your winches to help pull out the stretch, like run a line through the dead eye to a winch?

[@RiggingDoctor]

You can, but the load will stress your rig. Using a car and a tree will save your fittings. If you don’t get the stretch out, you will eventually get it all with time.

[@SteifWood]

I assume the dyneema come with info how much it stretches so its possible to know how (short) to cut... or is there a formula depending on size?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It comes with a spool. It was a lot of research and testing to come up with the calculations

[@eragonbaffel9518]

@@RiggingDoctor How about prestretching the Rope, before you create The Line? Would that reduce the variable enough to "cut/work" it to messure?

[@ianallan2337]

Pre-stressed Dyneema?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It makes it a lot easier later on if you get the majority of the stretch out

[@bryrensexton4618]

👍!!!

[@RiggingDoctor]

😁

[@nooneanybodyknows1321]

I think you did the right thing by not trying to stretch the Dyneema with your rental car. If something went wrong it would, well you know. 🤦‍♂

[@RiggingDoctor]

Indeed. I normally use the tow hitch on an F150. A little European can doesn’t have the mass or strength

[@feedurheadhesaid]

Hello! I love seeing many of the different ways people have been using dyneema since it's introduction. I'm very interested in simple, cheap and repairable rigs. I know on your boat and other boat designed with wire rigging what you have done is the most efficient way I have seen to rig in dyneema. I have a 1973 Cheoy Lee Midshipman 40 ketch. I need new chainplates (9!) and rigging so my situation is a little different. I want to design new chainplates specifically for dyneema. What is your opinion on using soft padeyes similar in design to the ones in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6Kmqompe7Rji5Y It seems very simple to make from supplies I have on board and I could make 2 sets for the boat and still be way under cost of paying a machinist to fabricate new chainplates.

[@RiggingDoctor]

I’m not completely sold on this system as the goal of the chainplate is to spread the load onto the hull and transmit it to the keel. If you have a Soft Loop, you will end up with a point load to the boat which will lead to hull deformation in that area. A chainplate designed for Dyneema would honestly be a bar at the top of the plate. Think of a large clevis pin where the plate wraps around and back onto itself, holding the ends of a pin. The lashings could wrap around the pin and be held in place by the sides of the chainplate. Now, bending the metal over would be difficult, and the next best thing is to machine a series of holes and fair leads into the end of the plate, obviously a very thick and expensive plate. This is all why I went with a deadeye connected to the plate by a toggle. It keeps cost down and strength up.