E170 - Bud Black Ejected Arguing Alfonso Márquez's Balls When TV Strike Zone Proves Misleading

[@vincentwendt720]

I really wish the TV box would go away. This is yet another example of the box being wrong. I don't understand why the broadcasts use something that time and time again has been proven to be unreliable. It works great for pitches that are in or out; but up or down, it is a disaster.

[@swanamaker]

Agree. That box has ruined watching MLB on TV. People are so focused on that flawed "for entertainment purposes" box that they spend more time pissed at the umpires than they do just enjoying the game.

[@dougr188]

@@vincentwendt720 All they are looking for is engagement. Good or bad they don't care.

[@mikecumbo7531]

It’s supplied by MLB, not the broadcasters.

[@holmj12]

It's interesting with NFL broadcasts and the first down yellow line that broadcasters always mention to the viewers that the yellow line is unofficial. So the viewers are primed to not 100% trust it. For whatever that doesn't happen for MLB. I guess with so many close pitches, it would be like a broken record.

[@dougr188]

I cannot wait to see the fallout from players, managers, and commentators when they finally get the ABS system dialed in. That first season is going to be wild.

[@andrewreid895]

1000% agree… gonna be hilarious watching players get frustrated with a computer

[@Not_a_smart_man]

They are going to be despondent when they can’t argue with and blame umpires anymore. It’s going to take all their fun out of the game.

[@vincentwendt720]

There will probably be ejections on whether or not the batter or the catcher took to long to challenge. Earlier this year John Russell was ejected for arguing a timeliness of a ball/strike challenge.

[@teebob21]

@@vincentwendt720 They will find something, ANYTHING, to cry about.

[@MarkcusHines]

(#72/Alfonso Marquez) has really made Mexico proud! My hat is off to him, and to his home country of Mexico with the highest respect.

[@Desirsar]

They need to just stop showing the top and bottom lines on TV until they can be accurate, gets it off the tablets too. People can eyeball it using the batter's body.

[@erniepeters1695]

You mean just like the umpire does? Woah! Amazing concept.

[@quintit]

i was literally just going to comment this, just leave the left/right borders.

[@erniepeters1695]

@@quintit why not just get rid of all of it. Let everyone look at what the umpire sees…and the batter and pitcher for that matter. It’s the way the game was played for 100 years…

[@quintit]

@@erniepeters1695 Simply because left/right is static, while top/bottom are the only metrics available for interpretation or opinion. And to your point of how we've "always done it" means nothing since there are plenty of things we "used to do" that the majority would not welcome back into the game.

[@erniepeters1695]

@@quintit this “new thing” simply leads to more examples of overpaid men playing a game for a living acting like spoiled children on the playing field. Remember, the ONLY PERSON whose judgement matters on balls and strikes is a human being who doesn’t have graphics and gets to make the call in real time hike simultaneously looking for a number of other infractions by the pitcher, batter, and catcher. But I get it, you really really want a way to “prove the stupid umpire wrong”. SMH

[@jmg999]

This was really interesting. I never knew what we're seeing on TV wasn't the actual zone. Thank you for the education!

[@BobbySacamano]

I've got to think the coaches know at this point that the TV box is misleading. If he is just eyeing it and being wrong, that's one thing, but if he's looking at his tablet to make the decision to argue, that's just ignorance at this point.

[@fnstyle]

It’s not about a call. It’s about finding someone to blame for their team sucking…

[@mrthingy9072]

I really wish they'd ban TV stations from putting up a strike zone. It's rarely accurate and all that does is generate more BS on the field and in the stands.

[@ronpeacock9939]

I agree, but the real problem is... MLB is the one providing that Bleepin Box. I think they want the arguments so they can come in with some form of computer system for real time... sadly, the only one that even come close to accurate is the challenge system... real time.. nothing is accurate enough..

[@Mosk915]

I remember when they first added it, it was only on replays, not the live play. I thought that was fine. Never liked when they started showing it all the time.

[@skydiverclassc2031]

The TV graphic shows the top line about even with the batter's belt (the blue line) to my eyes. Yet, this line is supposedly higher than the actual limit?

[@stephenkasper6081]

They had to do that with the ipads in the dugout. The league let them have it to get instant performance feedback, but they still use it a lot to just scream at the umpires. This is becoming like the World Series of Poker where no one was playing, they were just counting cards.

[@jeffw1267]

When the catcher is yanking balls up or down in the strike zone, you know they must have been outside the strike zone. Otherwise, the catcher wouldn't do that. There was a time when umpires would automatically call those as balls.

[@thomasboyd6242]

Once again the coach is wrong and the umpire is correct!!!

[@JonClemence]

The other day I watched a game and they didn’t have the box on the screen for whatever reason. I have to say, I preferred it not being there. It’s becoming a distraction at this point.

[@tanana3000]

A very Rockies moment. When the world is in turmoil, the Rockies being the Rockies is like a weighted blanket reminding you everything is right as it should be.

[@PapaVanTwee5]

Video engagement... something something.

[@McClimber234]

You would think the dugout would know by now......nope.

[@tchevrier]

do these managers not realize that the tv broadcast is not accurate?

[@George-f5t]

The TV networks know just about every stat imaginable about every player in MLB. Why don't they know how high the top and bottom of each player's strike zone is?

[@teebob21]

The strike zone is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball. By rule, it's not the same height from player to player, or from game to game, or even from one pitch to another.

[@1969EType]

They know the vertical limits of the zone. A better question is…why aren’t they developing and or using hardware and software that accurately plots the limits of the entire zone for each player?

[@billrobelen4948]

@@1969EType The problem is the vertical zone changes on every pitch. Progranning for that is extremely difficult. In order to show the accurate strike zone live, the computer would have to be able to take a snapshot of the batter right as the ball passes over the plate. If the batter is in the front of the box, a pitch that is a strike may seem high as it passes him. if the batter is in the back of the box, a strike may seem low as it passes him. Currently, computers are not programmed to calculate all the variables in real time.

[@mikecumbo7531]

Ask MLB that question. They supply the graphic. It’s their system.

[@1969EType]

Negative, Ghostrider...you're overthinking it. All MLB players must submit a green screen of their batting stance to the league's IT department. This is then reviewed (no overly squatting stances, etc...) and then these green screen values are then what their vertical zone is and entered in to the robo ump to form their "box". Either we want to use this technology, or we do not. This current state of showing the TV public a horribly generic and incorrect vertical zone needs to end immediately.

[@Leafsdude]

0:19 - Catcher is *not* doing a good job receiving. Every pitch is going right into the middle of the zone. You're not going to convince an ump with that nonsense. In the mid-00s it was an art seeing catchers move a pitch from just out of the zone to looking like it was just in the zone. As a Jays fan, I always thought Gregg Zaun was one of the best. Such little movements might fool an ump. This stuff won't.

[@alanhess9306]

Well said. Dragging the pitch into the zone is not framing. It's not really fooling the ump though, he can see the glove movement. Minimal movement looks like a strike and umpires want to call strikes. Dragging the same pitch into the zone does not look like a strike.

[@danielhetue6968]

Fire Bud Black immediately, Rockies!!

[@CoachOlsson]

He ain't the problem

[@dougr188]

@@CoachOlsson He's managed 17 years now and his teams have finished over .500, 4 times. He's certainly not helping.

[@tomatopotatocelery]

Why do they need to process stuff after the game? Why not just measure the players and know beforehand what their zones are?

[@austin.draude]

The strike zone is dependent on a player's stance, and the stance can vary from one at-bat to the next... if I spread out my stance a bit, the bottom is going to slip. If I crouch, the top of the zone will dip. It's a good thought in theory but it'll fall apart in practice relatively quickly.

[@kevwwong]

Honestly love how undramatic Marquez was with this ejection. Gives the warnings, then a firm but unexaggerated toss motion. And I'll give Bud credit - he didn't run out like a Boone-type screaming at an ump. More or less strolled out, told Marquez what he thought was wrong (albeit loudly), and only swore as he headed back towards the dugout. And of course, we know that Bud was wrong in his strike zone assessment, but at least he kept his cool and stated his case. Overall, just two guys doing their jobs.

[@amonrodriguez3518]

Ya some players don’t like the box on the tv and I’m starting to feel the same way

[@KWally]

Get rid of the box on tv. It's too inconsistent

[@austin.draude]

Not sure who's doing the postgame processing, but the TV zone is NEVER high enough. If that pitch is within the TV box, it is not high, it's definitely a strike.

[@penguin44ca]

Ok then. Remove the box problem solved

[@jagriffin1]

Can we get a video on what the actual strike zone is?

[@CloseCallSports]

If you're looking for how to interpret the data, see this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6DFpKaamdmgZ5Y

[@erniepeters1695]

The actual strike zone? It’s that area over the plate that when a pitch passes thru it causes the umpire to call “strike!” None of the silly lines and graphics matter those are simply in place to cause hysterical arguments. 😂

[@brianmullaney6237]

The rulebook has a definition. What 20+ year MLB umps call a strike might deviate somewhat from the definition

[@erniepeters1695]

@@brianmullaney6237 yes because if you call the rule as written you would be calling some high strikes. The reason for umpires is because nobody will ever agree so someone has to decide..pass judgement as it were.

[@alanhess9306]

@@erniepeters1695 The bottom of the zone is the hollow beneath the knee. The top of the zone is the midpoint between the batter's belt and the top of his shoulders, right about at the bottom of the sternum. If the umpire is calling by the written rule and is calling high strikes, he is calling legitimate strikes, right?

[@ben2972]

Solution: make the strike zone for everyone start 18 inches off the ground and be three feet tall and width of plate. Or whatever is the “average” of all players, etc. I loved how Rickey Henderson absolutely dominated with his tiny strike zone, but I also think it was ridiculous.

[@alanhess9306]

So the height of the zone would be the same for Jose Altuve and Aaron Judge? That definitely would not be a viable solution.

[@anthonyvega-fujioka4464]

Arguing balls and strikes with the home plate umpire is a really bad idea. It’s a death wish if you are arguing balls and strikes with crew chief. Arguing balls and strikes with Alfonso Marquez is the definition of a death wish.

[@johnholley1898]

TV graphic isn’t accurate AT ALL

[@voxelation]

There are two things the TV graphic usually gets right. For most pitches, it shows the pitch's location where it crossed the front of the plate. It is also mostly accurate for whether the pitch is over the plate. It's not accurate at the top and bottom of the strike zone. Pitches that enter the strike zone behind the front of the plate may show up as an open circle. So the TV graphic isn't always reliable for pitches on the edge of the strike zone. Pitches down the middle? Generally accurate.

[@WarrenSpears-q9r]

Tv box off real thing ball all day

[@jamaalgresham9092]

I don't see how that 1st pitch is a ball, but Ejection 171 Jesse Winker was ever higher, and the narrator acted as if it was a correct call to Jesse

[@TheFactChecker0]

So Marquez gets all calls right and still gets an argument... ok.

[@jacobrichardson1952]

Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh JESUS CHRIST 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 THIS IS BULLSHIT HILARIOUS 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@ChrisBerti]

What would the implications be of changing the definition of the strike zone, so that it is the same for everyone. To allow an ABS to be used. Obviously, extra short people would be at a significant dis-advantage (edited because 3 letters make big difference), but what else is new?

[@TheExcalabur]

The opposite of that-tall people would be at an advantage, because the strike zone would shrink for them compared to today. It works fine in cricket--the stumps are the same for everyone.

[@teebob21]

The major implication is that it would do away with one of the basic tenets of the game since it's invention: the idea that each batter's strike zone is specific to him and his swinging stance. Instead of developing rules that are compatible with technology, they should either scrap the technology which can't properly enforce the rules of the game, or get better technology if modernity is going to insist on perfection in officiating. Personally, I'd rather see hitters that are better than failing to reach base 70% of the time. It's horrible and boring.

[@CoachOlsson]

Poor buddy black, doomed to manage the 2nd shittiest team (A's #1) in the MLB for all time

[@alvinthecat8426]

TV box has been a joke since it was introduced. Post game processing is a joke also. Throw the pitch, we'll let you know if it's a strike after the game is over.

[@TheExcalabur]

For reviewing umpire performance postgame processing is exactly the right tool-the real time version is *the umpire*, but the training/performance tool for the umpires need not work in real-time.

[@DoctorWho14615]

FIRST!