Should Israel Depend on the US? (with Michael Oren) 2/6/24

[@hannahmondry4678]

Mr. Oren is providing the best, most comprehensive and honest analysis possible. This interview should be watched by everyone. Everyone! Thank you for this brilliant interview!!

[@mgraemem]

As a Christian man, I've been educating myself over the last couple of years concerning Christian persecution of Jewish people. I've found that Luther's anti-semitic screed "On The Jews And Their List" is but the tip of the iceberg. So very sorry . . . . . No excuse for this.

[@Zensci18]

Appreciate the sentiment. Thank you. What most Christians don’t realize is that most of NT was written by Jews. So when NT seems antisemitic in particular verses, what it really is, is an intra-communal vilification. But because Christianity evolves into a separate religious community from a prior Jewish sect, Christianity adopts these verses from an inter-communal vilification perspective resulting in perception of the “other” through lens of antisemitic Jew-hatred. This is part why Jewish Tradition ascribes intra-communal vilification as incredibly dangerous and this is ultimately the reason that Jewish Tradition says is the sin that actually destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem- the Roman’s were just the vehicle that enabled it. But it was Jewish self-hatred (hatred between brothers) that is the true source of its destruction.

[@revol148]

@mgraemem the Christians along with Islam is the two most blood thirsty religions on earth....

[@davidgladstone5261]

I have been saying repeatedly that Israel must declare its independence from the US and the UN. The US meddling in Israel's internal politics is intolerable, dangerous and illegitimate.

[@revol148]

@davidgladstone5261 nice try - Israel just needs that juicy $3.3,000,000,000 a year way too much !

[@lawrencetendler7747]

Israel does not want independence from the US, it keeps asking the US for help and for money which prevents Israel from being independent and encourages the US to meddle in affairs .

[@davidgladstone5261]

I am very impressed by Michael Oren. I not only enjoyed and learned a great deal from his book about the 6-Day War, but I heard his personal narrative about his own war experiences in Gaza and elsewhere. He speaks with eloquence and passion and also uses understatement rather than the overblown hyperbole that so many rely upon.

[@bh1935]

no it shouldn't. israel should not plan on the US having its back in the next 20 years. need to make its own weapons ASAP.

[@darrenwatzman5970]

It plans too. Doesn’t need us welfare. Self independent financially powerful. Does more harm accepting us welfare. One only as to look at Palestinians..

[@lawrencetendler7747]

Israel does make its own weapons and has been doing so for decades .

[@rajanikantmohan840]

Found this deeply insightful and i appreciate getting the perspective from inside of Israel.

[@bikerabbi]

Russ, thank you for the comment about calling anti-semitism, Jew-hatred. I have long done this for the reasons you stated. Thanks for this excellent series.

[@jeanetteharris7928]

NO! lean on the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph and his two sons. Amen.

[@sandytatham3592]

Michael Oren is positive, pragmatic and very inspiring. Thank you so much for this interview...🤭🙏

[@willosee]

Rus, Any chance of a discussion regarding the legal fights in Israel? As an Australian we, like the US, have a High Court who uses the constitution to interpret acts of parliament for its constitutional validity. Works pretty well. I realise Israel is different but am struggling to find a source who doesn’t have a Doberman in the fight. Regards, Mark

[@connie.22]

hm, i saw a great youtube video on it... im thinking i know where.... if i find it ill post where. what i remember was it was an interview with someone that wanted some of the changes, thought the high court here was too strong, how ever he did a great explaination and said what was his opinion. personally i am glad israel has the strong court , but appreciatied the clear history, and explaination in english.

[@connie.22]

@willosee this is the title _ A Constitutional Moment in Wartime: The Reasonableness of the Israeli Supreme Court Decision? it is in english but the youtube channel is in hebrew. if i remember correctly he went thru a long history of the issue of the high court in israel, it was detailed and specific that i felt it was a fair and informative description of the court in israel. its an hour long. i dont know if the link will work. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eX6cgZt9oJaIaKs

[@josephgrynberg244]

Last five minutes worth it all. Very inspiring and hopeful

[@WalkerLarson497]

There’s a great lack of historical context in this context comment section. On both sides.

[@Babaghanoush77]

Totally agree. Mr oren is bang on. I am an Anglo Jew. Even in the 1990s israels reliance on the usa made me uneasy. Even back then when usa was a much more reliable partner I wondered what would happen if israels enemies ran the same game they played in Europe. Or the usa collapsed and stopped being a world power. That was even before Obama and that extreme neo Marxist wing of the democratic party came to the fore. Fast forward 25 years and my fears back in the 90s have all pretty much come true. They have become true far quicker than I could have even imagined back then. Israel enemies were obviously thinking exactly the same thing as I was. And they were much more successful in the usa than I had realised. Its obvious really the only thing standing in their way was the usa so they have taken her down and taken her over like in Europe. Israel needs to start extricated itself from its relationship with the usa now ASAP. Stay friends with them of course and stay friends with its genuine friends in usa. Alo they must plan for a world where the usa is neither a super power and those in charge their friends including radicalised neo Marxist usa Jewry. The period of relative post ww2 with israel as a plucky little democratic country surviving against the odds and minding its own business is over. The world was and will become even more again might is right. Israel is surrounded by failed states and powers like Iran and Turkey which will eat up the region and israel unless israel stands up and is strong. Friends or deals will only be made with those who need you. If you aren't strong and needed you will be done in this post ww2 usa world.

[@MrSuperGamerz]

Down with Zionism and Genocide, stay mad cuz the world gonna keep changing

[@revol148]

@user-ht7bp6h1y if there was a war tomorrow between Israel v UK which side would you be on?

[@Babaghanoush77]

@revol148 after what has happened since October 7th I wouldn't fight for anyone. Uk is finished it's a dead state walking. Under the current neo Marxist establishment its litreally a few short years away from collapse. They were always imoral but now they are in a secular cult now too. In the past they did imoral things but pretended not too and didnt want people to know what they were doing let alone pretend they were being moral by being evil and corrupt. Now they are in a cult and lost their sense of self preservation as well as being morally bankrupt. Israel I would also find difficult to reconcile fighting for. They are litreally sending their young men to fight and die with a straight jacket on to please an old western post ww2 civilsation that already sort of doesn't exist and soon won't. Even in israel they are still yet to get their heads around that fact themselves. I think israel has a better chance of surviving. West including UK are 8th century byzantium unaware of the full force of what is soon about to hit them. Its sonething more akin to the dark ages when some roman Britons thought it a goid idea to bring in some saxon mercenaries to fight their perceived enemies here. Russia are like 8th century persia. Again weirdly byzabtium and persia were going at it like hammer and tongs just before they were both walloped from left field. Since October 7th I will never fight for uk or allow my son to. All the elites and neo Marxists can go fight and when they are all dead I might think about it and someone else is in charge. From a self preservation point of view I have two choices fight for israel and at least go down fighting and with people and in a place where I actually have relatives. Or find another part of the world to live and hide where there are no western neo Marxists in charge no history of right wing anti semitism before the Marxist version of it and where they have not allowed in the same 8th century nazi storm that hit and will hit again very soon. At the moment the way things are Europe will have their very own versions of hamas and hizbullah running riot. I myself had not quire grasped how big the neo Marxist cult had gotten. How radicalised people had been made and how penetrator they are and lost all sense of self preservation too

[@MrSuperGamerz]

This interview tells me everything about this channel I need to know

[@alrosano5786]

Israel 🇮🇱 none apparently!

[@LOPEKJJJ]

Michael Oren begins to touch on Israel’s image and PR around 25:00. He’s right that Israel is uniquely judged as a Jewish state. He then goes into antisemitism and he’s partly right but the bigger picture is that Israel has not embraced its Jewish identity. This is the big failing of Zionism. If israel embraced its Jewish identity and clearly and proudly proclaimed its deep connection to the entire land of Israel, from Gaza to the valleys of Samaria, and a desire to revive authentic Hebrew civilization from the river to the sea then it would have a completely different dynamic with the other nations. Instead of Yad Vashem, foreign leaders should be brought to Hebron. Instead of the 2 state solution, israel should talk about what happened when Yehoshua Ben Nun entered the land and the 3 options rooted in justice that were offered to the other inhabitants. Instead of democracy (which israel really isn’t as its high court has proven again and again) it should be talking about Jerusalem, the Temple, and the historic Jewish aspiration to bring all of humanity into harmony.

[@diandenmark]

amen

[@alrosano5786]

No consequences at all !

[@benabraham2783]

Ben Gvir for Prime Minister!

[@minimalistic_banhaus]

This interview makes a mockery of the typical exceptional quality and thoughtfulness associated with EconTalk. Interviews of politicians as an invitation for them to spout talking points is the exact opposite of what EconTalk has been and should be. I had a few thoughts before I started skipping through the video: 2:13 Is it really confusing to him? The "entirely too much" is with regard to civilians. 13:20 Does he really think Americans wouldn't have a right to criticize Israel except for the fact we send them military aid? 22:01 I literally laughed out loud. Israel has the best PR in the world. What other nation could openly use starvation of civilians as a means of warfare and avoid UN condemnation? What other nation could allow its security forces to beat pallbearers at the funeral of a journalist it killed until they dropped the casket?

[@PaulGrinderQueer69]

Yea, this was disgusting warmongering apologetics

[@explore-n]

completely wrong. economies are the result of people's actions. EVERYTHING in the world at the end of the day effects the economy. this talk highlights it on many stages. watch it again under this understanding. good luck

[@DanHowardMtl]

GLASS

[@explore-n]

Israel will defend itself@@PaulGrinderQueer69

[@AnAn___]

Many argue that the Israelis are militarily being defeated by Hamas. Many Israelis--including deep down Michael Oren--are terrified that Israel may soon no longer exist as an independent country. Israelis feel really alone and scared. Israelis have terrible PR. "What other nation could openly use starvation of civilians as a means of warfare and avoid UN condemnation? What other nation could allow its security forces to beat pallbearers at the funeral of a journalist it killed until they dropped the casket?" I think you are naive. There are currently 50 major simultaneous wars around the world. The world has more war now than any time since WWII. And many of these wars are far more bloody than what is happening in Gaza right now. If Israel loses the war, where do you think the surviving Israelis should flee to?

[@alrosano5786]

With settlements !

[@alrosano5786]

The constant victims!

[@davidgladstone5261]

Israel and Russia need to review their relationship and see what is possible. I think of Germany and Russia's amazing coup at Rapallo in 1922. Russia and the Iranian alliance is not deep or even in line with history. I think of Israel's millions of Russian Jews as a possible foundation for a new special relationship. Israel cannot be dependant upon the US or EU or the UN for that matter.

[@revol148]

@davidgladstone5261 Even washed out Israeli apologists like you need to reconcile yourself with the fact that after this conflict Israel really is going to be alone - you can forget the Abraham accords, Iran never getting a nuclear weapon (less than 3 years away hopefully) and even their parasitical relationship with the USA is under question. As for Russia - there really is no love lost between those two countries although on balance I think Russia hates Iran only slightly less. As for the EU - most of those countries are in long term economic, military and political decline - the only one that's sliding slower than the rest is Germany as for obvious reason they will forever been bound to support Israel whatever they do. Your points about the media are a little out of date - things have changed since the early 1940's !

[@alrosano5786]

Ostrich!

[@alrosano5786]

No mention of the West Bank and the settlement?

[@shainazion4073]

What settlement?

[@bikerd12]

Given the historical abuses the Jews people have been subjected to I get why Jews are hyper vigilant. However, some attention should be paid to the future. Is the cycle of tit for tat bloodletting also the fortune of the generations to come? There are two peoples who claim rights to same piece of geography and unless one side eliminates the other ( and I hope to god that’s not the case) people on both sides will have to come to an acceptable understanding. Please, don’t let the past get in the way of the future.

[@leonclark8615]

The “we have no choice” argument is getting really ridiculous. Israel doesn’t have a choice in killing Hamas terrorists? Of course they have a choice, but their desire to kill terrorist outweighs their concern for civilians. The same with the US in Afghanistan. The desire for killing Al Qaeda outweighed the concern for civilians.

[@AnAn___]

Yes, Israel has to accept far greater risk of IDF casualties.

[@amirabiri2]

No. We don’t. You are welcome to gamble with the lives of your own children, not ours.

[@AnAn___]

@@amirabiri2 Gazans are closer than twin sisters to Israelis. And share a common heart and soul with Israelis. Doesn't love for love sake mean that the IDF needs to liberate Gazans from their Hamas jailors . . . so that Gazans have a shot at freedom? Gazans are also hostages of Hamas. For this to happen, the IDF has to accept a high risk of IDF casualties as they clear Rafah.

[@amirabiri2]

@@AnAn___ You clearly know very little about my country. Thanks for helping decide how many of my countrymen should die so you can feel better. It's much appreciated. I am aware of our shared ancestry. It's not "twin sisters" which is ridiculous, but we are the portion of Judea's population which was exiled or emigrated, but maintained our Jewish identity in the diaspora, along with some converts who joined along the way. They are the portion of the population that stayed and converted to Christianity and then later to Islam, intermingled with various conquerors, immigrants and imported slaves over the centuries. Twin sisters we are not. Where do you get however the notion that genetic proximity should have something to do with any of this? If anything it means the exact opposite. What was the genetic proximity between Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda? Between Athenians and Spartans during the sack of Athens? Between Northern and Southern Americans during the American civil war? Between any two groups of Arabs or any two groups of Europeans when they massacred each other for the past two millennia? The only thing our genetic proximity means is that both people's claim to the land are valid, which is why this conflict will never end. As for the Gazans, you are severely misinformed. Watch some of Einat Wilf's lectures and speeches or read her book (she is a peace camp lefty BTW). The Palestinians have been indoctrinating themselves into oblivion as a death cult of no Jewish sovereignty anywhere between the river and the sea for the past 100 years. The Gazans elected and support Hamas, and Hamas would win a free election in the West Bank right now, and at any point during the past twenty years. Not that is matters, because the PLO is also a terrorist organization, and Arafat murdered Israelis. And finally what does any of that have to do with fighting terrorists with one hand tied behind our backs? The Hamas will not be any less dead, and the Gazans won't be any less free regardless of the death toll to us or to them. When Hamas is gone, it is gone, and the Gazans will be free to elect them again, and continue their century old psychotic homicidal journey of trying to killing us, as they did before Hamas. I 100% refuse to allow any more of our young men to die for this death cult. Our only goal here should be to win, so we can secure the safety or OUR children. If they cared about their children, this conflict would have ended a hundred years ago.

[@AnAn___]

@@amirabiri2 Aren't Gazans your family too? If Israel does not help them, then who else will?

[@amirabiri2]

@@AnAn___ They need to help themselves. They will soon be free of Hamas - watch how they go down the same path again.

[@MrManny075]

This guy indirectly is saying Jews are special the chosen ones, but to look at it in a different lanse God sent too many Warners Prophets to the Israelis because God knows them, Yes it's true they are special as we can see that they are capable of doing for something meaningless like a land that belongs to no one because no one can live forever, in facts no one owns anything, so what's the point of a stupid land? Greed runs in some people's blood