What Palestinians Are Thinking 1/29/24

[@yutubh3682]

They made the videos. They shared the videos. They all saw the videos. AND rejoiced.

[@allagamarnik3237]

These two statements are at odds with each other. These are not exact quotes. 1. 80% of Gazans are 1948 refugees. 2. 50% of Gazans are under age 30. People who were born in Gaza and live in Gaza are not refugees. They might be dascendants of refugees but not refugees themselves. We must not fall for the fallacy that Palestinians inherit refugee status, a consideration not given to anyone else.

[@diandenmark]

Thanks for spelling this out. I have a hard time respecting anyone who blithely says that 80% of Gazans are 1948 refugees.

[@shenandoah7875]

I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out.

[@paulamarsh1]

Correct ! Of the roughly 750,000 Arabs who fled Israel in 1948, there are only around 40,000 'refugees' left. The others are descendants. The UN created its agency solely for these displaced Arabs. No UN agency helped with the Jewish refugees, fleeing Morocco Turkey Iraq Syria Yemen. It has been calculated that these Jews left behind property and land that was four times the size of the newly created Israel !

[@toddfulton2280]

I don't know what "self determination" means in the context of a group or a nation given we're not talking about a "self". That said, what do you do when their collective will is to destroy you? Maybe this will highlight what I am trying to say here: Supporting Palestinian "self determination" sounds nice and all, but I certainly don't want Iran to have "self determination" considering what it is "they" want to do with the world. So the question is, what does "Palestinian self determination" entail? What would they do with the "freedom" to achieve "their" desired goals? Is this captained from the "top down", or does it emerge from the "bottom up"? If it's the former, the leadership of the Palestinians can't just be some other terror group, if it's the latter, it doesn't matter if Hamas is destroyed. It's probably a bit of both.

[@billybaab73]

I truly love EconTalk. Been listening to it for years. Russ Roberts has done the world a great service.

[@econtalkwithruss]

Thanks for your kind words!

[@ronilevin6376]

It's not what you say, its what you do. Check the tree by its fruits: Outoantisemitic.

[@allagamarnik3237]

I share Dahlia Scheindlin's vision of the two states that exist in cooperation and harmony. I pray that this dream will become reality in some distant future. Unfortunately, while only a minority of Israelis would opposes such a future, the majority of the Palestinians do not accept any Jewish state in any borders. There is, therefore, no clear path from here to there.

[@paulamarsh1]

This actually means a third state! Palestinians have Greater Palestine - it was Jordan Lebanon and Southern Syria!

[@hus390]

Arab Israelis are docile. Why? Because they have something to live on and something to live for. Let Palestinians free in their own state or have one state.

[@annborden3987]

Up until this program i was a big fan. It seems to me this program was a perpetuation of the victimhood of the Pals without any 35:39 agency. No discussion that some of the kidnapped and many who assisted and supported Hamas on 10/7. As a true refugee i find this willingness to not hold these people accountable for their behavior not heloful. Very disappointing.

[@shenandoah7875]

I had never heard of this program until KZbin recommended it last night. I will not be listening to more because you are right. They are racist and don’t hold Arabs to the same moral standard.

[@econtalkwithruss]

Thanks for listening! Just so you know, this is the first Palestine-sympathetic guest Russ has had on the podcast. He has had about ten guests from the other side on, so I highly recommend other episodes, especially Matti Friedman on the pro-Palestine bias of media coverage. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHvGoaaDfsR0fsk

[@DanHowardMtl]

She's wrong at 49:20. A basic shared concept of human rights is definitely NOT a completely secular prospect. Delusional.

[@whitekeys95]

She seems nice but is delusional

[@sandytatham3592]

Why do the so-called Palestinians have "a self-determination claim"? They are not a 'unique social group' in the way that the #indigenous Jews are, or the Kurds, Druze or Assyrians. They are the same as the Arabs who live in the surrounding Arab countries. Arabs were already granted self-determination in 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Empire, today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Palestinians don't have a legal claim, they've rejected all the offers made to them, and they've now surely *forfeited* any moral claim to a state. Does this lady have any idea about the supremacist ideology of Islam? It's not just a religion. It's a complete way of life including politics and law, which also applies to non-Muslims living within their lands. Good luck with that "porous boundary" when you have people on one side who want to kill those on the other side!!! It was very hard to listen to Dahlia Scheindlin, but thank you...🙏

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

Now that's a brain dead comment 🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@victormeidan1062]

@@FlamingBasketballClub Nope. The Zombie comment is yours.

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

@@victormeidan1062 Bruh you are a clown 🤡

[@paulamarsh1]

Zuheir Mohsen of the PLO himself stated that "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that "between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons"...

[@hofii2]

Human rights comes from the Jewish/Christian tradition. It does not spring up in any other society, including atheist ones. Insofar is it exists in secular societies, it exists in those that are post-Christian (i.e., Europe), or those that have had it imposed by those that were from that tradition (e.g., Japan by the U.S.).

[@loginjones]

Wow amazing discussion

[@shenandoah7875]

Gaza wasn’t completely unoccupied because that would mean they would have unfettered access to weapons. The 7th proves that Gaza should have been totally occupied.

[@bleep957]

When was this made ?

[@MohamedSamyAlRabbani]

It is funny that the podcast called "What Palestinians Are Thinking" has no Palestinians speaking

[@DiffQ_Bro]

A Palestinian perspective is valuable but we're talking about poll numbers.

[@MohamedSamyAlRabbani]

@@DiffQ_Bro Bullshit! Who knows if those polls even mean anything? What is the sample size? Is it representative of the majority of people? Only the Palestinians can speak for themselves. If you don't speak Arabic and live in Gaza, then nothing you say means anything.

[@David99356]

He mentioned on a previous episode that he hasn’t been successful in getting a Palestinian on the program. And I think we can guess why.

[@victormeidan1062]

maybe the real "palestinians" are the Israelis. The Israelis were called "palestinians" before 1948.

[@TruthMattersOfficial]

She's a well-meaning dreamer. The people in the streets of Gaza saw the broken body of the woman in the back of the pickup truck, and they continued beating her with sticks. They saw the women with blood soaked trousers. And Gazans are on social media too. They saw it. And stories would've spread like wildfire. Some people undoubtedly were horrified, or at least I'd hope so. But we can't delude ourselves that all were

[@hus390]

You shouldn’t delude yourself that Palestinians live difficult lives caused by brutal occupation. And Gazans are rarely allowed to visit the West Bank.

[@motekm3]

47:25 One cannot be EQUALLY concerned about Fundamentalist Jews as much as Fundamentalist Islamists. This would be an irrational and unthinking response to facts and reality. Nonetheless, this conversation was informative in so far as I’ve still not been convinced of a pro-Palestinian argument/view for their own “state”.

[@motekm3]

I would agree with her that a more secular Israel is needed to respect individual rights and can lead the way to integrate rights-respecting Palestinians into a future “New Israel” (my words at the end).

[@lionelscott5839]

How about the 30 million gold that was stolen from the airport in Ontario Canada , the inside employee that organizes the heist have Middle East names.

[@comfortsource8680]

Very very strange conversation.

[@NCSCsailor]

Dahlia states October 7 was different in that terrorists came into houses and attacked individuals. More intimate. She is missing many very personal attacks over the years. The Fogel family massacre in Itamar in 2011 comes immediately to mind. There was a similar attack on the Shabo family in Itamar in 2002. The Salomon family massacre in Halamish in 2017. It's true that these events didn't kill a thousand people in one day, but I believe they were very intimate.

[@hus390]

Itamar is a settlement inside the occupied West Bank!! Not in proper Israel. Same with Halamich. These settlements turn the lives of Palestinians upside down. I hate violence but they are completely different than attacks inside Israel.

[@NCSCsailor]

@@hus390 I'm not understanding why the location makes the butchering of families in their homes "completely different" when Dahlia's point was about the intimacy of October 7.

[@izzykhach]

I completely disagree with Dhalia. The most open and prosperous that Gaza and West Bank ever were was under the military occupation pre-Oslo. Then Arafat and his thug cronies took over and destroyed the Palestinian economy. Elan Journo wrote a book on the subject. And it is disingenuous to compare Israeli religious parties to the theocrats in Hamas and Islamic Jihad who are of a much higher order of magnitude in terms of their religious zeal.

[@shenandoah7875]

Gaza and the West Bank have been given multiple chances for statehood and have said no to them. One of the conditions for this would be demilitarization. How would this be different than whatever occupation Gaza was under? The pertinent question to me is WHY is life in Gaza so terrible? Is it truly because of Israel’s occupation or is it the atrocious culture?

[@maorthekinglong]

Trillions of dolars was poord in to that place it could of been the singapor of the middle east.

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

Land theft ain't it

[@shenandoah7875]

@@FlamingBasketballClub who are you accusing of theft?

[@Foster-rv6ty]

​@@FlamingBasketballClubThere's no excuse whatsoever for Hamas' genocide Charter, "Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it", and October 7th.

[@minimalistic_banhaus]

The only hope is for extreme global warming that raises the sea level dramatically to the point where there is no land to fight over. Even then, people from the two sides may get on motor boats, put on snorkels, and try to drown each other over where the land used to be.

[@shenandoah7875]

Israel won’t drown. They are techno wizzes. Gaza and the West Bank on the other hand will be begging for Israel’s help in that uncertain scenario.

[@ricardoeid827]

Reaching minute 15 it has to be said that the lady is an honest scholar, starting with her intention, ending with her results The host Russ R. -- I listened him talking with R. Wright (whom I found lucid and honest, too, m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZaspWCbqtdjZ8k&pp=ygUUbm9uemVybyBydXNzIHJvYmVydHM%3D ), and believe was then too apologetic, asking Wright to forgive him for his clear bad conscience -- sorry, I had to tell the truth ... which doesn't mean that in the future -- reality might come to shatter within Russ any sense that he can accomodate himself along Zionism, lest inside it ... meaning, I expect him to get out of that sinking Israeli ship, get to the coast of a clean, free Palestine This unique genocide moment allows one to morally prod unknown people!

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

My question for Dahlia is this. If every country in the world has a right to independence and sovereign integrity according to UN, then why do you support a two state solution knowing that it denies Palestine those same rights? 🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌚🌚🌚🌚🌚🌚

[@MeanDark2]

Hiw does 2 state solution deny palestinians of sovereignity??

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

@@MeanDark2 Love how you skipped the original question. The modern state of Israel was founded on land theft. The problem with the two state solution is that it enables the continuation of settlement expansion (which has been deemed illegal by UN). Not sure why you have a hard time understanding that.

[@MeanDark2]

@@FlamingBasketballClub land stolen from who? Ottoman empire? British colonies? There was no sovereign palestjnian state, ever.

[@carlosbucioborja]

A 2 state solution DOES NOT deny the right for independence or the existence of a Palestinian State. Palestine as a State DID NOT EXIST as a kingdom, as an emirate, as a department, etc. before 1948. IF the Palestinian leaders had accepted in the early or mid 40s of last century the existence of 2 friendly states -- instead of embracing Nazism -- the region wouldn't be experiencing the current hellish situation.

[@victormeidan1062]

@@FlamingBasketballClub Nope. The Temple in Jerusalem was built 3000 years ago. Our sages were writing about it in the Great Book of Books. The land thieves are those 7th century AD settler-colonizers.

[@whitekeys95]

She seems nice but is delusional