EL James STILL Doesn't Understand Consent

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You'd think you could only go up from Fifty Shades of Grey but this author's incompetence should never be underestimated.
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[@michaelfraser1073]

You know what really annoys me? That Mitchell was the fanfic writer who made it big. Like, there are fanfic writers out there who write better stories than the stuff they base their fanfic on. But her slop got famous and those incredible stories didn’t.

[@artofthepossible7329]

I mean, Tolkien's Legenderium and The Chronicles of Narnia have sold *how* many copies?

[@magimerlyn9596]

I have read fanfics with similar premises to her stuff that were so fucking good, partially because they were just better quality, but also because they don’t pretend to not be fanfic

[@theweyrd]

Besides the obvious weakness in plot, it’s her writing style as such that is abominable and it irks me to no end!!! I’m convinced there are professionals on those sites, indulging their little side loves, just because their work is so well done. Candle Beck f.ex., but James’ writing is just bad. I’m not a native speaker and my work’s not beta read, but I’d never dream of writing an equivalent to “cold but chilly”. The pain is real!!!

[@Powered1Buttercup]

Her husband works in the industry and so does she, I really doubt it was because someone discovered it and thought “this would make a great series!”

[@magicrainbowkitties1023]

Fr we are living in an age where people are churning out actual literary masterworks for the sole purpose of "I just really like these characters, hope you guys like my shitty fanfic!" And THIS BITCH HERE is the one that got big!? Hell I have mutuals on Tumblr that write better smut than this shit.

[@natmorse-noland9133]

The violations of consent are part of EL James's fantasy in the same way rejecting the fancy gifts is. She wants her female protagonists to be "good girls," not "sluts." So if they resist sexual advances but are overpowered, that "allows" them to do all kinds of sexual things while keeping their "good girl" persona intact. Just like how turning down the fancy gifts, but having them forced upon the protagonists anyway, allows them to remain "modest" like a properly feminine woman while still reaping the benefits of extravagant wealth.

[@timothymclean]

I hate how much sense that makes.

[@jenniferschillig3768]

Which is the rationale behind the "bodice-ripper" novels that persisted from The Sheik in the 1920s well into the eighties. They began at a time when "good girls" weren't supposed to acknowledge sexual feelings, so they resisted the alpha-male heroes, and were overcome by them, and ended up enjoying it, but it was still "okay" because they hadn't asked for it.

[@natmorse-noland9133]

@@jenniferschillig3768 yuuup. Fortunately the romance industry as a whole has largely moved away from that. Clearly James has not.

[@synthraofficial5366]

BINGO. I didn't know how to put it into words, but you nailed it.

[@flossimoth]

@@natmorse-noland9133 has it? that's good to hear. I stopped reading romance novels early on in my teens because they made me uncomfortable and angry with the way consent was treated. I stick to fanfiction, because while the quality of the writing can vary wildly, at least I can filter the content I want better using tags, so I don't have to deal with lack of consent and asshole 'bad boy' characters that are only nice to the protag because they want to bang them

[@m3llo8an4t0s]

i had an albanian girl as a classmate in high school and i can confirm she was in possession of a backbone. A lot more socially competent than I was, too. Her family were normal ass people. What I've heard about Alessia's characterisation really sounds like almost orientalist fetishisation but relocated to eastern europe so she could still be white. It also reminds me of weirdo pickup artists talking about how girls in the east (either asia or eastern europe) are so much more submissive and feminine than western women infected by feminism, and predatory creep Andrew Tate relocating to Romania to take advantage of the lax sexual assault laws. Genuinely fucked up shit.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

honestly!! this rlly reminded me of the outdated ish character dynamic of a confident powerful white man and his meek submissive (usually east) asian love interest but el james didnt want to write an asian lmao

[@turkicnomad5632]

Orientalist fetishization hasn’t moved to Eastern Europe. If any thing it moved to Eastern Asia. Orientalism began in earnest when the Ottoman Empire controlled just vast swaths of the Middle East and the balkans, controlling trade. This shit is so ingrained that even after new countries were founded, they still point their gross fetishization in the exact same places. Leave it to the English to retain traditions from the 1600s. I’m looking at you, too, Tudor dynasty.

[@AirQuotes]

Bingo

[@lumik.l4693]

🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

@@tristanhartup4936 tbf i dont want to make accusations ab her, that was mostly sarcastic lol, im just saying it really seems like a stereotypical white/east asian love story without the east asian

[@milamaro8503]

I need to add this because it's been driving me nuts, even though it's not a massive part of the book. Maxim's surname is Trevelyan. That is a name with deeply horrible connotations to the Irish, because Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet, was put in charge of the relief effort during the Great Hunger (aka the Potato Famine) and basically took the conservative line of 'well we don't want them to get attached to our charity, and they're not really human, so we'll keep taking all the non-potato food they grow so we can keep making money, and give them "Indian Corn"' which Irish people didn't know how to use so they ate it like their own and it shredded their insides and killed a lot of people. He was a monster and if you've ever heard Fields of Athenry at a Irish-English match, he's named in it because we remember his soft genocide approach. There is no doubt in my mind James picked the name for the legacy of nobility and historical importance - even if she didn't and just thought it was neat, she should have thought twice about using it because of that legacy which she absolutely should have known because her HUSBAND IS IRISH! Also Maxim has tenant farmers. A Trevelyan ... with tenant farmers. Fuck you James!

[@danielramsey6141]

WOW! I did not know any of that! I knew the Potato Famine was a Fucked event! But to Learn that this happened, and with the abuse of Indian Corn as an Intentional Weapon! Holy hell…. I mean, I’m part Native American, that’s just wrong! Just So Wrong! And I can’t believe that E.L. James has the stones to Fuck’in give her character such a name.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

el james: offending nationalities one country at a time

[@jenniferschillig3768]

She probably just saw Goldeneye and thought the villain's surname sounded cool.

[@KittyKatt_Luna80s]

@@jenniferschillig3768 Seriously, she is a clueless idiot. She comes up with a ridiculous stereotype for her leading lady which could be seen as r@cist, plus she uses a posh-sounding surname which had negative connections with the Irish... She also treats the women as either hyper-sl*tty or naïve stupid virgin church mice... This is one absolutely gross "author" with a r@pe fetish if she is aware of the connotations of everything. Otherwise, she's just stupid and gross.

[@GoddoDoggo]

I thought it was some made-up fantasy name because I only know it from the Dragon Age games...

[@jalapenoofjustice4682]

ok but "it's music to my dick" is one of the funniest lines in the history of literature

[@fivefoxesinatrenchcoat1744]

Same. It’s so stupid I can’t even look at that phrase without laughing.

[@hildegunstvonmythenmetz6095]

Sounds a bit like something from an ironical My Hero Academia yaoi fanfiction written by a teenager on AO3.

[@octopassi2528]

@@hildegunstvonmythenmetz6095 oh I'm using that line for my mha fanfic in ao3 written as a teenager.

[@hildegunstvonmythenmetz6095]

@@octopassi2528 hehe boi

[@lottensjogren4774]

I immediatly got the picture in my mind of Maxim walking out on stage, pulling his trousers down and his dick starts singing opera. Now I can't unsee it...

[@maguszanin5296]

It is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair

[@alarcon99]

is there a more in-depth nugget of wisdom to E.L James writing that you feel Dom missed as a result of his income being dependent on criticizing E.L James' writing? Don't let us stop you from sharing. Go on. I'll wait.

[@maristiller4033]

@@alarcon99 I think they were talking about James not Dom

[@maguszanin5296]

@@maristiller4033 correct

[@atherisGAY]

@@alarcon99 E.L. James profits from seemingly not understanding consent.

[@LynnHermione]

Described EL James and consent to a t

[@miralang8149]

I'm starting to think E L James should have turned her writing "talent" towards scripts for daytime soaps instead of erotica. Think about it: it's pure concentrated drama for the sake of drama without much continuity or character development, yet people just lap it up easily since it doesn't usually require much cognition in order to enjoy. Unless she finds another community to grossly misrepresent, there's no way she could go wrong.

[@timothymclean]

And of course, Erica Mitchell honed her "craft" writing serial fiction. Being able to write a full chapter/episode on-schedule, consistently, is an absolutely critical skill for a soap opera writer. (Or for serial fiction in general, but most don't have quite as quick a release schedule as soaps.)

[@KristiContemplates]

Grays of our Twilights

[@KheldarLars]

Get out of my soaps. I don't need this

[@SavageBroadcast]

As someone who has worked on soaps, don't compare us to James. We actually try and don't have the endless time and resources of a millionaire who doesn't give a fig about consent to write just one book.

[@DFX4509B]

Or filthy reality shows, Bravo! would scoop her right up without a second thought to work on a 'Real Housewives of (city)' show. (PS: Sadly that sounds like something that network would actually do)

[@sharkofjoy]

It's less and less surprising that she is the one fanfiction author Hollywood is comfortable investing in. Her fetishes fit neatly into patriarchy and capitalism.

[@BLZ231]

Capitalism certainly, patriarchy, eh, I think that’s more incidental. Because let’s be honest, corporations don’t really give a shit about what they’re selling, all they care about is how much money it will make them. Hell, they’ll sell stories with blatantly anti capitalist themes as long as it makes them money. Personally I think patriarchy is an outdated and misleading term, especially since it’s a woman author who is spreading around this toxic nonsense, and there are plenty of men like Dom who recognize how horrible it is.

[@LakinMae5]

Ironic as fanfics are in themselves anti-capitalism

[@stephenjenkins7971]

More like "patriarchy" and "capitalism" actually rakes in interest unlike preachy stories to the contrary, I think.

[@bethanychatman9531]

@@stephenjenkins7971 sure, who said any other stories are "preachy"? You sound like you read shit books no matter what. Just say you love misogyny and the warrior for that known as E.L James

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@bethanychatman9531 "Preachy" being books that focus so much on their intended moral that it makes the book a bore to read, I assume. I just don't like people bashing other people for writing their fetishes down on paper; such people tend to be miserable people who love to project their own flaws on others. I also don't like OP's thinly veiled claim that Hollywood invested in this book because of its "patriarchy". That's some schizo level paranoia there. Won't deny the capitalist bit, though. Though I don't see an issue with it.

[@JoshtheOverlander]

I laughed so hard at the numerous examples of Maxim's dick seemingly having a mind of its own. Like, is it possessed? Is it sentient? WHAT IS THIS WRITING???

[@sharonspears-mandeville2369]

Nah- _It's like they say,to quote South Park- He's _*_Speaking (-/Thinking) with his Dick!_*

[@NWolfsson]

It stirs.. so much... Must be cooking porridge or polenta with how often it stirs.

[@Lorddacenshadowind]

Now I want a story about a guy and his adventures with his sentient penis lol

[@shinyagumon7015]

@@NWolfsson Everyone looking at his crotch must be disturbed by all that strange movement down there.

[@damien678]

it's worrying she may genuinely seem to think men can't control themselves sexually to the point that's how she seriously describes dicks

[@ShauriCheshire]

Just remember, dear Dom, if they do actually make a film out of this horrible thing, "I don't want to" is ALWAYS a valid answer. :) You do seem pretty genuinely traumatized by these particular works and I don't feel that your fans would mind terribly if you just noped out of a LIA for that. I know that I would not mind it, for your sake. That having been said, this was a very good and, dare I say, fair, assessment of a garbage work and I thank you for it. I've not read any of her work, and thanks to your efforts I have neither need nor desire to alter that. ^_^

[@grutarg2938]

As we all learned in today's lesson on consent, it is OK to say No. :)

[@Grim_Sister]

While it was fun to see you lose your mind when this channel started, I must concur. Your mental health is far more important than putting this “author” in her place Please, take a few mental health days and snuggle with your kitties

[@alarcon99]

Maybe he just forgot the safe word? It happens

[@melindoranightsilver9298]

After his mental health is back in check he could always do that damn 365 series

[@liabowden8526]

Lol, I can’t believe I never noticed Lost In Adaptation = L.I.A.! That’s my name, so I sat there for longer than I care to admit wondering what you were referring to (for whatever reason the title of the ‘series’ refused to form in my mind-😅🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️.)

[@RemeberChester]

I'm sorry but "My c**ck stirs and agreement" and "It's music to my c**ck" are two of the most horrible and hilarious lines I've ever heard. I had to pause the video cause I couldn"t stop laughing. We all appreciate your brave sacrifice working on this book Dom

[@titangirl161]

This is why the spoiled sweet trope exists. And I personally love how the photo for that page is Charlotte and Tiana from Disney's Princess and the Frog- upon seeing Tiana fall and ruin her dress, Charlotte immediately runs to her, asks if she's alright, and takes her up to her (Charlottes) own room to let her friend wear one of her dresses

[@Author.Noelle.Alexandria]

I love Charlotte. She could so easily be a brat, but is instead so thrilled to share what she has and never sees Tiana as worth less for having come from less money. She may have her fantasy of a prince, but that never overrides her concern for her best friend. And what’s better is that her kindness is never used as charity. She would have just given Tiana money for the restaurant, but Tiana wanted to earn it, and when she saw a chance to help with that through the party, she did it. I think Disney managed to walk that very fine line very well. And even better, they managed to do it with a nod toward class and racial inequality. Yet Tiana’s dignity was never taken, and Charlotte was never selfish.

[@falconeshield]

Charlotte literally invented that trope

[@katebriggs3330]

Omg, Charlotte is getting recognition! I love her so much. Naveen was willing to marry her, but once Charlotte saw how much Tiana loved him, she gave up her biggest dream (aka marrying a prince) to make her best friend happy. She's a bit ditzy, a bit naive, but such a great friend.

[@malena5026]

Charlotte is sich a good friend. I believe that she bought the blue dress she gives to her for Tiana bc all Charlotte wears is pink

[@Cheetahgirl_Studios]

Finally someone acknowledges Charlotte! I love her character sm. They could’ve easily made her a spoilt brat, but they didn’t. She cared about Tiana so much, and was even willing to sacrifice her own dream (marrying Prince Naveen) because she could see that he was happier with her best friend. And even then, she wasn’t jealous of that. She was over the moon for Tia, and as one of the other replies has rightfully pointed out she respected Tiana’s wish to get her restaurant her way, and never gave her money towards it outside of the party commission because she saw that it would be how her best friend would want to get that money: work. The Princess and the Frog is overall a criminally underrated movie, and Charlotte’s character is even more so underrated.

[@Galaxia7]

16:00 she wanted the female character coming from a 'backward' third-world esque country, so she could be submissive and innocent ,but still have her be white. That's why she chose Albania tbh. And yes from what I saw from Albanians she got almost everything wrong about that country

[@jasminv8653]

Yeah I mean that's the exact thought behind western men lusting after the idea of eastern european postal brides and it's gross as hell.

[@cidevant002]

I have never before heard of an author being so incompetent portraying a country that the actual government of that country came out to tell her off. That is one amazing of a feat for someone that started writing twilight fanfiction.

[@samkuperman9035]

I thought the same thing! I even commented this on KrimsonRogue’s review of the book lmfao

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

@@cidevant002 not a book but it actually happened to emily in paris lmao - they portrayed their ONLY ukranian woman as a double crossing thief who leaves the poor innocent white american woman at her crime scene to be incriminated, and the equivalent of the media minister in ukraine denounced it as a xenophobic stereotype

[@sweetbunnybun]

sadly it happens with a lot of heroes from EE. for some creators EE its a wasteland filled with thugs and 'hoes'.

[@evilempryss]

Here I am, an amateur historical recreationist, imagining a time three- to four-hundred years from now people reading this book and using it for historical accuracy on how people actually step-by-step played their digital music files 🤣 Cuz it's always the completely mundane "everyone already knows how to do this so why would we ever record it" stuff that gets lost to history

[@spicybeantofu]

Is that your attempt to stand up for this author lol

[@evilempryss]

@@spicybeantofu not seriously, no, but some of the best information we have from the common person's level in history comes from graffiti and other throw-away (junk) writings

[@princeapoopoo5787]

I suppose even a broken clock is right twice a day, and in EL James' case, it is offering insight to our descendants about our daily lives. Huh, what a plot twist.

[@tinkerer3399]

@@evilempryss Kind of like how our earliest example of correspondence we have is a Roman soldier writing his mother to ask for socks.

[@Lucifersfursona]

That’s so weirdly optimistic I’m kinda into it

[@KittyCatalyst]

I read someone's theory that Erika's self-insert character isn't Ana/Alessia, it's Christian/Maxim and honestly that makes a lot of sense to me.

[@jonasdatlas4668]

Dan Olson (Folding Ideas) brought up that idea in his video essays on Fifty Shades, iirc.

[@Lawnie]

He did - also in reference to “Safe Haven”, another Twilight fanfic Erika wrote, which she heavily cannibalised for The Mister.

[@falconeshield]

@@Lawnie God not one original note in her body.

[@dirkjehovah4731]

I remember when Dom reviewed 50 shades, he said he kept accidentally saying James instead of Grey

[@arianewinter4266]

true that and it makes it so much worse

[@justas423]

The wealth fetish seems to be a simple "Getting whisked away by a rich man and having all my problems solved" fantasy. Same with the consent thing. It's basically consensual non-consent without context so it's just non-consent.

[@CapricornsWish]

Maxim's scenes being written from first person pov while Alessia's are third person reminds me of Dan Olson (from Folding Ideas) proposing the theory that Christian is the author insert character in 50 Shades of Grey and not Anna.

[@SilverDragonJay]

agreed. I had the same thought, more evidence for the pile. nothing wrong with that of course, and I'm not comfortable making inferences about her from that, but it is interesting because its not what I had initially assumed.

[@LynnHermione]

Is this not an obvious take? I feel it is plain this is the case, particularly with how James behaved during the first movie to the point she had the woman in charge (competition in her head) fired and hired a man who will do her bidding

[@lilithiaabendstern6303]

wasn't that the case with masters of the universe - the POV was Edward, not Bella or was that a different take on the same characters - I'm just confused with all this literary nontent - and no, that is no typo, because James writes a lot, yet says absolutely nothing also him being the active subject and her the passive object, literally and figuratively - talking about objectification while being somewhat fetishized (the daily-thing) at the same time - I mean, to each their own kink, but don't call that love please

[@sadrabbit53]

It's really strange, like she's writing from and for the male gaze

[@Artista_Frustrado]

so... basically, EL James is writing shipfics between herself & Stephanie Meyers?

[@NWolfsson]

"E L James never resolve plot, she only resolve kidnappings." Me, thinking back to the Fifty Shades Lost in Adaptation: Huh... Didn't even realize that. Thanks Dom!

[@DS-uh6ss]

This is such an 80s trope, too. It's clear that Erika hasn't read much since those old Jackie Collins paperbacks and romance bodice rippers.

[@NWolfsson]

@@DS-uh6ss (actual challenge: Try ripping a bodice. I swear, people are underestimating cloth so much, anything that isn't a daily worn 15-years-old tee shirt will not rip unless you're the incredible Hulk or have pre-cut the fabric. Sooo innacurate 0/10 literally unplayable.)

[@DS-uh6ss]

@@NWolfsson but my pirate-dom-CEO-stepbrother is so manly he can rip whalebone with his bare hands!

[@NWolfsson]

@@DS-uh6ss Well I hope you use it for kink! This power shan't be left to rot!

[@DS-uh6ss]

@@NWolfsson I'll put it in a novel that'll be rejected because I depict consent and I'm told by Industry editors and publishers that it's "not sexy" and "he needs to drag her upstairs and fuck her instead." Consent is soooo boring, and screaming "Yes, yes, yes!" is totally unsexy, ain't it?

[@RowdyruffPrincess]

as a long time fanfic reader So many of James' writing problems, including the consent issues and the kidnapping thing, tie back to popular fanfic tropes from over a DECADE AGO. the constant power struggles during sex, the refusal to actually resolve any themes or arcs in any way aside from " Throw characters into brief mortal peril and just act like that somehow resolved everything". its all the worst kind of fanficcy. hell even the random Viewpoint Swapping thing is an old fanfic trope. one Modern fanfic writers tend to stay away from.

[@Ikajo]

Still pretty common unfortunately even among more modern fanfics. It is a sign of immature writing. And none of them want to hear how they can improve either

[@RowdyruffPrincess]

@@Ikajo well yeah. People write fanfic for fun and put it on the internet for free. Its generally considered bad form to critique a fanfic unless the author asks for critique. Writing for fun and writing for profit are different. I see tonsof immature writers on fanfic sites, people who dont know how to use paragraphs yet even. but i know its not my place to Come into their playroom and tell them their playing with their dolls wrong. The difference is James is a GROWN ASS WOMAN Who Writes as A job. So the fact she still writes like an awkward teen hobbyist is facepalm worthy.

[@Ikajo]

@@RowdyruffPrincess I've tried addressing issues on the fanfiction subreddit, but they didn't accept that either. On the other hand, the writing subreddit isn't particularly good either. You ask a discussion type question and they only come with yes or no answers. Not interested in nuance or offering actual advice. Which for me tend to be regarding how to write people of colour since I'm a white woman. Stuff like describing skin colour or what type of epithets are acceptable. To avoid accidental racism. Yet, they only start berating me about even using any of it instead of actually asking my question... I do write Marvel fanfics as an outlet, and I've noticed many of my readers seem to be longing for well written stories.

[@GermanLeftist]

@@RowdyruffPrincess If you put your stuff out for the public to read, expect criticism. If you can't take that, don't put stuff out for the public to read. If you're too young or immature to understand this concept, your parents shouldn't allow you to have access to the internet in the first place.

[@tovekauppi1616]

@@GermanLeftist I think it depends on the tone of the criticism. If you start reading something and only have bad things to say, then just find a different fic to read. If you find a fic that you generally like but there is a specific issue that could be fixed relatively easily (clarifying who is speaking, making paragraphs etc) it could be appropriate to let them know. But even then, not all authors will be susceptible to criticism. You can of course say negative things in a review, but before posting, think about *why* you are writing it. If you genuinely want to help the author improve, then you should take care to make sure that it will be received well. If you are not interested in helping the author improve, then I guess you are either attempting to shout your frustrations into the void and forgot that there is a real person on the receiving end or you are specifically trying to dunk on someone who is writing for free as a hobby. Neither of those are good options.

[@4amlibra]

“… and yes, I do want to be fair, even to E. L. James.” Classy as always, Dom. To quote Jono over on Cinema Therapy: “We treat people with respect, not because of who they are, but because of who we are.”

[@Lenntill19]

Love Cinema Therapy!!

[@dysmissme7343]

That’s a great quote

[@elalaela2694]

Yes!! Love their content!

[@justaghostinthesea]

Cinema Therapy is great and we need more content like theirs

[@casseylu7516]

Part of me thinks EL James still writes like she is publishing weekly fanfiction. Churning out a sizable amount of content very quickly over a long period of time has probably lead to some bad habits, such as writing out every detail of every action to inflate the word count. It's likely also why events in the book is very self contained and doesn't connect to anything else, because she is used to writing chapter by chapter and not editing anything she has finished to make sure it all fits as a whole. Both these issues affect the pacing, making some scenes soo long that your eyes start drifting off the page every 20 seconds, and others where a conflict is brought up and resolved soo fast you didn't even have the chance to react. Reminds me of my old essays. But at least I've improved since then.

[@timothymclean]

Sometimes, I remember my decade-old fanfiction and want to die. But if nothing else, EL James gives me the courage to say that I'm making _new_ mistakes instead of repeating the old ones, dammit!

[@AbsolXGuardian]

It also explains why she's rewriting the entire series from Grey's prespective. That's a common fanfic trope, but they can be more interesting because it's a different author creating a new interpretation of the work. And usually it's a side character they're a big fan of that does a lot off screen, and not the dueteroganist.

[@turkicnomad5632]

She is. Hence the inconsistently swapping points of view (she didn’t plan her book) and the deluge of meaningless details (she needed to fill pages when she had out-written her plot).

[@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339]

I agree, at least it’d explain a lot. I’ve read several fanfics that had a similar pacing and structure and normally it’s not as bad if you read it chapter by chapter, but if you read a book, you expect cohesiveness and arcs. It’s sad to see, but it makes sense that she can’t shake off her fanfic writing style…

[@julietfischer5056]

There's no reason to inflate word counts in fanfiction, but so many writers do so. I try to ensure my stories are unified and make sense. The sites I use allow writers to go back and rework chapters or even replace the entire fic. James apparently never had constructive feedback about her characters or storylines.

[@Teuthological]

The part where Dom is narrating all of Maxim’s single word profanities gives fighting game character taking damage energy which brings me joy to imagine.

[@tendreverveine2553]

EL James took on herself to reverse the whole "men ridiculously writing women" and she has my respect for it.

[@BLZ231]

I don't think she'd be worthy of respect unless she did it deliberately, which given how arrogant and lacking in self awareness she appears to be seems unlikely.

[@agentspaniel4428]

She doesn't write women well either, so really, no one wins

[@timothymclean]

Props to Wildbow, who also inspires a lot of memes about writing men the way [X] writes women, but writes compelling female characters in compelling stories. Also, he listens to his critics. (Possibly too much, but it's better than nothing.)

[@Canadamus_Prime]

It's very depressing when authors whose work, if submitted to a high school English class, would get a "very poor, see me after class," somehow not only get published, but get on the Best Seller's list.

[@kennyhudson9201]

Why? Sound like you are depressed because many people like things that you don't like. Also, proves those high school teachers are wrong. If she wrote as they wanted, she wouldn't have sold as many books. And would likely just be a teacher, instead of a super rich author. LOL. It's depressing that people think what's good is some boring, technical slog. It's like some people forgot that fun sells. Good art isn't only some dark, depressing crap.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@Kenny Hudson If it were simply a matter of subject matter that didn't appeal to me, I wouldn't make an issue out of it; although I'd still be greatly disturbed by E.L. James' idea of romance. No, this is like if the infamous fan fiction "My Immortal" got professionally published and became a best seller.

[@kennyhudson9201]

@@Canadamus_Prime LOL. I do actually get you, but it DID get published and became a best seller. Surely that's more than any of those English teachers have ever done. I mean she made something that millions enjoyed. Isn't that good enough? Of course, we can still critique, but to act like she isn't worthy of her success seems unfair, since she made something and people liked it.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@Kenny Hudson Which is what I'm doing. I'm critiquing. The woman is a terrible writer. The fact that she managed to get published and become so successful suggests to me that she has a significant enough audience with low standards.

[@kennyhudson9201]

@@Canadamus_Prime Sigh, I guess that is what I am arguing against. The presumption that they have low standards, because you see it as bad. So if they think it is good, and think what you like is bad, you will just see them as low IQ or having low standards, which is dismissing their genuine like. It's hard for me to accept people bashing something that is popular, because it's saying everyone is dumb except me and like minded people. She is NOT a terrible writer to millions. Why not think her success indicates making something good that many people like, just not you? Because you seem to be claiming it is bad, despite it's overwhelming success.

[@GriffinPilgrim]

I mean...she also doesn't understand pacing, character development, natural sounding dialogue or how to come up with her own ideas for plots so maybe we're expecting too much...

[@turkicnomad5632]

And yet, here we are, unpublished and manuscripts unfinished, and Erica Mitchell, who’s barely literate, amassed a literary low-budget porn empire. I want to dig my way into hell.

[@FHT1883]

you seem like someone who appreciates art… Grand Admiral

[@alexhulea2735]

it's housewife porn. it's only supposed to stir the imagination, not have any form of meaningful message. not alleviating the reader's boredom somehow is not how to make lots of money as an author.

[@DukeSkylocker]

James' aversion to character arcs is honestly kind of astounding. Like when Dominic brings up Max's war vet friend Tom, my initial thought was "okay, it would be too much to expect James to do a deep dive into the effects of PTSD or even a more general theme of how society still stigmatizes those suffering from it as weak but even the LAZIEST writer would have an arc where he lost his best friend during a war and feels guilty about it and overcomes his guilt when he saves Max from a similar situation in the climax". Somehow even such a cliche obvious arc seems too much for James.

[@Author.Noelle.Alexandria]

Thing is, that would make it Tom’s story. Going into veteran PTDS and society stigmatizing PTSD in veterans would really mean that character needs to be the main character, and that would also likely be a part of the main plot. That’s not something you can handle in a subplot. It needs to be a main plot. I’m writing some books right now, and we realized that the storyline for a supporting character (it does involve war) needs to be a main plot to another book in the series since trying to handle it as a subplot does a disservice to the realities of what happened during that war.

[@coffeewolfproductions9113]

@@Author.Noelle.Alexandria But still, even a smaller character arc that doesn't relate to the main story would be better than nothing. Tom as he is basically has no reason for being here or existing.

[@kennyhudson9201]

It's realistic. Most people don't change. Most people don't have arcs.

[@howdyhowdyhelga]

my personal little theory is that, considering james' fetish for rebecca by daphne du maurier, alessia's chapters of the book were supposed to read as impersonal and distant, the way the main character of rebecca's did, hence the change in pov. if james was a decent writer, alessia growing a backbone and finding her strength through maxim's love would have caused her point of view to shift to first person to illustrate her developed sense of self and identity. that it was **her** side of the story to tell. except james isn't a good writer and alessia as a character stays flat pretty much the whole time.

[@tombsofak]

Aw man that would have been BRILLIANT honestly. And very original I think, can't say I've ever heard of something being done like that before. Tragic that instead this is E. L. James we're talking about here.

[@annameyl]

Omg that could have been great Everything has potential. It's too bad sometimes it sucks to the point that said potential is practically invisible

[@DaniPetkova]

This book gave me the worst readers blueballs possible: it sets something up, you think you know what it is doing, and then the plot point fizzles down or gets resolved in one paragraph. Maxim's unwillingness to accept his role as an earl: oh great, he is going to learn responsibility and grow up, or he is going to see how his influence can help people like Alessia or some other such shit. The 'she makes him a better person' trope is overdone to the point that you expect it somehow. Caroline being there, the pregnancy scare, her attitude towards Alessia: great, the female lead has her villains, Maxim gets one too. Caroline can be the plotting bitch who wants her son to inherit so she doesn't lose her lifestyle. Or the obsessive lover who is trying to sabotage their relationship, to the point of exposing someone to actual danger to have her way. Her possible pregnancy could have been introduced the moment when Maxim actually begins to LIKE his role, thus increasing the tension a bit and making Maxim realise how much wasted potential the title will be in Caro's hands. Nope. It reads like a first draft where E. L. started going somewhere, got distracted and forgot and then she never read it a second time. Alessia... where do I start. I'm from Eastern Europe, Bulgaria, not Albania, so this hits a bit close to home. While her family situation is something that really exists... it just shows her as the stereotype Eastern European women are seen when they immigrate to the West. Regardless of who we were, what kind of education we had how clever we were, we are perceived as either the cleaning staff or a sex worker. That's the extent of our competences. It is hard to get a job and it is hard to get accepted, especially in situations when you are seen as a gold-digger/ someone who wants a quick marriage so they can stay. This could have been used - showing a competent, smart woman who is making her way, trying to navigate an unfamiliar environment; working several jobs to support herself and gain her independence after escaping a bad family life. She will be cautions to exchange one cage for another, cautious about her relationships and the power balance, working trough trauma. If she is not a gold digger she will understand how much pressure being the wife of a rich person will put her under. She may have to give up on her dreams and ambitions. She could have even been a student, she could have had a life outside of work, something that makes her less dependent on Maxim and less needing to be rescued in every possible way. She could chose to be with him or not but she will have a viable alternative other than r*pe. Instead of an actual human we get a child-like doll who is so happy not to be sold into marriage or forced into sex work she jumps in the arms of the first person who gives her an umbrella. Side note, in case anyone had any doubt: this is not how bilingual brains work.

[@happytofu5]

Dont forget that he has also given her the sea 😆

[@d.o.m.i.]

@@happytofu5 THE C!!!

[@blauespony1013]

@@d.o.m.i. Great, now I have to google "how to remove cereal from a laptop screen" because of your comment. *still chuckling*

[@blauespony1013]

Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice came to mind immediately. But here, it is done way better (obviously). Lizzy only points out Mr. Darcy's flaws, HE chooses to correct them and does so on his own, because he reflected on them and found them to be true. Winning her affections was not even a main part of the motivation. So the "reformed bad boy" trope can be done well, if authors grasp the concept.

[@d.o.m.i.]

@@blauespony1013 ayyy sorry

[@ameldell5180]

Dom trying to divine arcs and themes in EL James’s writing is like trying to read tea leaves or make sense of conspiracy theories. Why try? But thank you for wasting so much time for our enjoyment

[@professorbutters]

Tea leaves make way more sense. At least you’ve got the tea.

[@turkicnomad5632]

There’s only a few things to divine: - EL James has only one extremely specific genre: rich/poor dubious consent kidnapping AU - she’s about as racist any English novelist between 1600 and 1930 - she only writes via the rules of fan fiction and despite what I assume was an army of editors, she has not learned

[@ameldell5180]

@@turkicnomad5632 it’s crazy how much it feels like a poorly transposed modernisation of a book by someone like Julia Quinn.

[@turkicnomad5632]

@@ameldell5180 my history with historical fiction is fraught with just…rage quitting. So much of it is very true to form as colonialist drivel or as “color blind”, blissfully unaware romps into a privileged world that feels so ahistorical when I know the context. So when you say that it’s bastardized Julia Quinn, for me, that’s impressively low.

[@ameldell5180]

@@turkicnomad5632 it was neither a compliment nor criticism, more like involuntary reverse ingeneering if you see what I mean. But Dom might be right too and it might have been fairytale inspired. Here I am, trying to read tea leaves… :)

[@nichelleniks4526]

Dominic roasting E.L. James? Editing my novel can wait 🥰

[@lizzie8982]

Her writing kinda reminds me of my own writing from when I was 14. But even back then I kept looking over my chapters and went „Wow, this is bad…“, kept rewriting everything, reflected on my mistakes and, you know, moved on and improved from my teenage fanfic writing style. But she doesn‘t seem to think that she needs any of that nasty self reflecting or improving.

[@turkicnomad5632]

When you have thousands of anonymous fans on livejournal, fanfic net, and ao3 who can’t hold your feet to the fire and will drown any dissent with torrents of praise, the thought of “””improvement””” cannot even form. Hence why I think she had such colossal tantrums about possible rewrites for the script in the first 50 Shades and the final draft of the books being virtually unedited. The pendulum swings from the unfortunate writers who don’t get published because they’re perfectionists that never finish their work to the barely literate parrots that poorly recite tropes from better books and waffle about for hundreds of thousands of words. You’d think neither of them would make a dime for roughly the same production, but here we are. Suffering.

[@lizzie8982]

@@turkicnomad5632 point taken. It's depressing

[@skiddadle8245]

the thing about EL James is that... She writes like a fanfiction writer. Because that's where she came from. Using words and phrases that feel right, even if they don't really make sense. I know because (honestly?) that's what I do. When you're writing fanfiction you don't have to worry about it being perfect. I just don't think she realizes there's a totally different expectation in actual publishing-

[@cakt1991]

The billionaire/aristocratic hero fantasy has a lot to do with women’s financial insecurity, plus you get the bonus of emotional security in one fell-swoop. Some other authors have started grappling with the issues related to this, including exploring how people born with wealth/power navigate the responsibilities and/or issues. While I don’t think EL James is that introspective of a writer, romance critics and other authors have unpacked her books in relation to the standard dynamics of this trope. Discussion of this in context with Fifty Shades makes up a chapter of author and critic Maya Rodale’s nonfic book, Dangerous Books for Girls; and while I don’t agree with all of Maya’s sentiments, it does make sense in context.

[@DS-uh6ss]

One of my favorite observations about this whole trope is from Bliss Bennett, who used to run a site called Romance Novels for Feminists. She pointed out "If the whole billionaire CEO thing is a fantasy, then where are the women billionaire CEOs?" So many of the readers claiming the appeal is "the faaaantasy!" don't get that we don't all have the same fantasies, and many of us would rather have the cash ourselves, thank you, than to have to give up all control to a Dom to get our student loans paid off and find a secure career path in publishing.

[@Florkl]

I mixed up the titles of Dangerous Book for Boys and Daring Book for Girls (which my sister and I enjoyed as kids) and was briefly but extremely concerned thinking that the latest edition might have a chapter on 50 Shades.

[@cakt1991]

@@DS-uh6ss that’s true! And I think we’re starting to get there…slowly…it’s just that a lot of internalized misogyny is baked into the genre. I really like what Angelina Lopez did with her debut, Lush Money…the hero is a Prince, but the heroine is a billionaire. And both of their statuses serve the plot, as it’s a modern spin on marriage of convenience. And if I recall, despite his royal title, he’s actually broke, so she’s the one with the money in the relationship, plus she’s making the terms of their agreement.

[@8teezy]

@@DS-uh6ss “where are the women billionaire ceos” Nonexistent because the other half of this fantasy is having someone to take care of you just for being you. It could be because the reader or author don’t think themselves are capable of running a company and handling that much wealth so are somewhat scared of the idea. It could be because they are secretly lazy and just don’t feel like bringing hard work into a fantasy. Either way the idea is daunting so they would rather push that responsibility on to someone else while also benefiting from it just because. All the reward with none of the effort.

[@alicianelson1252]

Yeah we need more stories about women who succeeded in the businesses world

[@gabrielpelletier6202]

I have to say, the infantilization of the female lead is only more and more obvious in this book, and it's clear it's a Thing for James. Which is... disturbing.

[@adairkibble3546]

I feel like it's a weird internalized misogyny thing where certain women think being infantile is attractive to all men (not just creeps) and so she thinks it's aspirational to her readers for the female lead to be childlike and innocent. Like men's supposed fantasies become repackaged in women's fantasies to be the type of woman they think men would like.

[@falconeshield]

Believe me, her target audience are vanilla women who believe this kind of story is raunchy, and whiny men who wonder why this shit sells as they hide their playboy mags.

[@juliannaistyping]

@@adairkibble3546 I'm replying 3 weeks late lmao but I think you're onto something. When I was lost in the christian-conservative-keep-sweet sauce as a teen, I often acted dumb and infantile bc I thought it was perceived as attractive (even though it's only attractive to predators). It's very possible James thinks women behaving this way is just "how women ought to be".

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

It's one thing to indicate that a person is ignorant/inexperienced, but putting them in kids pajamas and using a night-light for children...the writer is sus.

[@animeotaku307]

Fun fact: The Mister is also based on a fanfic ELJ wrote, albeit less well-known. “Safe Haven,” a Poldark fanfiction. Even this isn’t original.

[@aishaaofthedays]

As someone who knows TOO MUCH ABOUT THIS... no. Safe Haven is still twilight fanfiction and from what little ive read, its not the basis of the Mister. The theory about The Mister being poldark fanfiction is speculation due to the similarities, but not confirmed to be any of her known works.

[@justme0910]

Caroline was in the story for one reason and one reason only: To establish Maxim not only as a ladies' man with questionable morals, but also make him seem like someone who could be a desirable long-term partner. Cue the woman who is really into him and has been for a long time, but that isn't a potential threat to the REAL love interest, since her complicated history with Maxim means they can't/shouldn't be together. It's a bit like resolving a love triangle by revealing one of the love interests is actually the protagonist's long lost sibling - except SLIGHTLY less awkward.

[@hexreviews]

Normally, in a romance novel, over developing side characters is an indication that that character will be the main in the next book in the series. I have a feeling this is not the case for Tom though.

[@coffeewolfproductions9113]

Or Caroline, because God forbid we focus on any woman that isn't a pure innocent child

[@c.w.simpsonproductions1230]

Speaking as someone who met EL James in 2019, the thing that I noticed the most was... how unremarkable she was. And I've met hundreds of authors over the years. Many of them are nice, some are a bit prudish or rude, and some are just... odd. I could go on a whole tangent about when I met Daniel Handler. But not much stood out from James compared to all the other authors. She seemed friendly enough, she even added a piece to my special collection of writing advice. Just goes to show that outward appearances aren't everything.

[@melpomenesnightmare7291]

I don’t know, from her writing, that’s kind of exactly what I imagine she’d come off as.

[@HappiestMango]

What did she add?

[@cidevant002]

@@melpomenesnightmare7291 Yeah, like she totally reads like an average fifty year old English woman that doesn't read a lot of erotica.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

IIRC some interviews with the crew that made the movie for 50 shades painted her as a total control freak Karen.

[@triforceofcourage100]

From what pictures I’ve seen of her I’ve always thought she looked ratty but that might just be the 50 shades influence

[@crazyth1ngs600]

Oh my god, the Spongebob Trevelyan song killed me! But also, your writing analysis was amazing as always. So I guess thank you for your suffering, Dom!

[@calsbag5264]

"It's music to my dick" absolutely KILLED me. I can't believe that was a genuine line she wrote and not a joke.

[@datawolf39]

Poor Dominic having to revisit his old nightmare to talk about his new nightmare

[@MinimalistTheatre333]

I have been trying to get my books published for thirteen years. This woman had people begging for her manuscript to be published.

[@coffeewolfproductions9113]

I'm sorry about that, I hope you can find someone to publish them.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

i rlly hope u can find a way to get it published :( that sounds like hell to go through

[@dimentiogamero4255]

Have you tried self-publishing yet?

[@MinimalistTheatre333]

@@dimentiogamero4255 Yes. It takes forever. I've tried asking Dom if he will read my story, but I don't know if he has read my messages yet.

[@dimentiogamero4255]

@@MinimalistTheatre333 Ok, good luck then!

[@Wiccanslyr]

As a person who does, in fact, clarify to myself during internal monologues I feel it necessary to defend James on that single point. I do also admit, however, that I'm weird.

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

By this point, ELJ and Stephanie Meyer are my "Beware!!!" Reminders as a published author: when I think that some story of a book of mine is not being great, I just remember myself "at least it's not like their books" and, boom, I automatically feel better about my writing 🤗😁.

[@xX_Knives_Xx]

ya gotta give twilight a little credit, at least there's a plot and its not like the slow over-described dreck ELJ writes

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

@@xX_Knives_Xx Yeah, you have a point, I admit that 🤔🤗😅.

[@felixt808]

​@@xX_Knives_Xx love your pfp

[@xX_Knives_Xx]

@@felixt808 why thank ya kindly

[@trinaq]

Yes, it's always a glorious day when Dom roasts EL James and her toxic erotic fantasies. She clearly doesn't know what healthy relationships even look like!

[@datawolf39]

I don't mean to be mean but if this is what her fantasy is, I have to wonder about her marriage.

[@crowwithashortcake]

@@datawolf39 i would not conflate someones fantasies with their irl relationships. thats like saying that if someone genuinely enjoys violent videogames that must mean theyre also violent in real life. thats not to say there arent societal issues when it comes to consent and such, but just because someone writes dubcon/noncon does not necessarily mean they condone it in real life. couples often roleplay noncon stuff consensually in real life as well, the important part is keeping in mind that fiction is fiction and reality is reality. yknow, dont pull shit on your real life partner that crosses any mutually agreed upon lines, etc etc.

[@EleiyaUmei]

@@crowwithashortcake I agree! I rather believe that she just enjoys these scenarios as phantasies, not in real life.

[@mariadocarmosobreira8323]

Well, to be fair, a book about a healthy relationship would NEVER sell. She's just being a great marketer.

[@zephner]

Judging from this book she also doesn’t know how sex works

[@dvass7253]

For as much as we make fun of E.L. James, you do have to wonder what kind of men she grew up around to push characters like Christian and Maxim as romantic gold standards.

[@BlueTressym]

Makes me feel queasy to think about it, honestly.

[@chelonianmobile]

Probably perfectly ordinary ones who she thinks are milquetoast and boring, from what I've heard.

[@wintercaptain]

Okay, I'm going to provide context on all this as someone who has been reading fanfic for around ten years now. I am in no way defending it, just giving an idea of where some of this might have come from. TW for discussions of consent and non-descriptive mentions of rape. *TL;DR at the end.* The general idea of dubious consent and what constitutes consent is somewhat blurred in the fanfiction world. For better or for worse (I'd argue for worse in most context), there's an unspoken rule when it comes to fanfics and sex. You're supposed to read it but keep it at a sort of distance, and know that the rules that apply to fanfic shouldn't apply to real life. For example, it's pretty common in fanfiction for one character to kiss the other somewhat suddenly, and it's rarely disclosed that this is in the story because this is par for the course. However, there's an assumption that the reader will see this, recognize it as the certain brand of romantic fantasy that only exists in the fanfic world. In addition, sexual consent is given a similar treatment. It operates on the same premise as the kiss example: fanfic is a fantasy that is unique to the format, and what happens in it should be separated from reality. Dubcon, short for dubious consent, is common, and was much more common in the earlier days of fanfiction. In the early days, or at least, early to me, it was used to describe everything from "these people are slightly intoxicated" to "this person is straight up saying 'no'". You were also lucky to get a warning. AO3, which is the preferred option of most of the experienced readers and writers, offers an extensive tagging system, so now things like drunk sex are tagged more frequently, so untagged dubcon is less and less frequent, but it still happens. Of course, there's a lot of problems with this, notably that fanfiction's reader base can skew young, and a lot of the younger readers are understandably unfamiliar with the unspoken divide between reality and fanfiction, and may grow up consuming things that skew their perception of these things. Ask me how I know. In addition, if fanfic is introduced to a wider audience of the general public who have never interacted with the fanfiction sphere before, a lot gets lost in translation. It's a bit like trying to read a poem from the 1930's without considering the context of the time period. A lot gets lost culturally. *TL;DR: Consent in fanfiction is often handled differently than it would be in traditional fiction or real life, operating on a sort of cultural understanding of the unspoken rules around fanfiction. This becomes a problem when introduced to a larger reader base.*

[@timothymclean]

ANd it doesn't help that the people _writing_ fanfic also often skew young, particularly on sites like Wattpad (which is known for, among other things, kidnapping-based romances). And of course, young people have a pretty loose understanding of romance in general and consent in specific-in significant part due to consuming media which portrays unhealthy versions of both, since they likely don't have much personal experience.

[@Letcharlieplay2545]

"You're supposed to read it but keep it at a sort of distance, and know that the rules that apply to fanfic shouldn't apply to real life." I disagree with this being exclusive to fanfic communities- I mean look at people who like horror, splatter punk, erotica, grimdark, etc. Fans of those don't want the horrific/intense things to actually happen to them and understand such actions of characters are wrong outside of fictional settings. A general reader base can absolutely make that separation in their minds, but the problem is what is and isn't acceptable (In terms of consent) often isn't taught to people, nor is critical analysis of media consumption. A lot of education systems fail to teach students proper sex ed (Which would help with the understanding of consent) and proper media criticism/analysis (Which would help with separation fiction from reality).

[@turkicnomad5632]

@@Letcharlieplay2545 I do wonder if sexual liberation and education were common place in the last century (or older) would have affected the culture of erotica and romantic literature. Would we still have had these dubcon fantasies that are *very old* traditions, or would consent be a regular part of romance tropes? Maybe it was never just fantasy at all.

[@Letcharlieplay2545]

@@turkicnomad5632 I think consent would be more commonplace, and what fantasies that pop up in erotica would be more varied, but I doubt they'd be fully dubcon free- since a lot of the appeal of dubcon is the suprise and spontinaity, as well as losing control to a certian extent (though, that's on the more extreme end of the dubcon scale).

[@AhsimNreiziev]

I treat sex in fiction, not just fanfiction, the same way I do superpowers. Just because vaguely human-looking and human-sounding characters can fly in fiction, doesn't mean I myself will try to jump off a building. I know that can only end in disaster.

[@PorgWitch]

The way James cares way more about sympathizing with the toxic dominant male characters makes me think she must've been quite the pick me in her youth

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

And that she peaked in high school, apparently, considering that she's still glamorizing this in her adult life.

[@xX_Knives_Xx]

i like ur hair

[@chelonianmobile]

@@RodrickMarsMoon The Spongebob PJs make me think she's more glamourising nursery school. Gross.

[@ramshaimam]

Between making Maxim's chapters in the first person and the fact that when you were reviewing the Grey series, you said you kept slipping up and referring to Christian as EL James, it's weird that Mitchell seems to self-insert herself into her male love interests rather than the supposed female protagonists. Like why wasn't this book called The Daily? Makes more sense since the book starts with the definition of the word and as you said, Maxim refers to Alessia as his daily constantly. The Mister makes it sound like the book is from Alessia's POV but it's not.

[@sharkofjoy]

I don't think it is weird for anyone to choose to identify with male characters over any others. Nearly all stories that people have heard in their lives, through all methods, are about men. Men are heros, men have adventures, men get rewarded.

[@4amlibra]

@@sharkofjoy I think it might have more to do with a straight woman writing erotica about a plain female character being swept off her feet by a handsome & wealthy suitor and yet not self-inserting onto Anna, who would be the most obvious option.

[@timothymclean]

If you've seen the third video Dan Olson made about the adaptation of the 50 Shades series, you've seen him argue that Edward/Christian was _always_ the self-insert for EL James/Erica Mitchel/Snow Queen's Ice Dragon. Not so much aimed at Ramsha, so much as anyone who doesn't understand their argument and wants a more detailed explanation.

[@chelonianmobile]

@@4amlibra More the fact that she self-inserts as the violent, creepy stalker.

[@dysmissme7343]

That “Hush, it’s okay” MADE MY BLOOD PRESSURE RISE UGGGHHHH

[@lichbunny3733]

Not sure what it says about EL James, but my most prominent memory of this book was how she managed to describe melting butter while casually cooking with far more passion/eroticism than any of the sexual scenes combined. I went into it knowing it was going to be bad, but that scene was just so...surreal.

[@ravonne6308]

Thank you EL James for writing bad male anatomy for a change! 😂

[@AlexOlinkiewicz]

E.L.James must have gotten her idea of consent from watching SpongeBob. As Patrick Star said in one episode - "SpongeBob, when are you gonna learn? No means yes."

[@thedeck-buildingdemon8293]

Makes sense that Alessia was wearing SpongeBob pyjamas during a sex scene then

[@AlexOlinkiewicz]

@@thedeck-buildingdemon8293 LOL True

[@thebigdawgj]

I mean when it comes to females, he's not wrong. They definitely say no when they mean yes.

[@Rebecca-bk9bd]

@@thebigdawgj no. No means no. Piss off

[@ameliasellers6396]

@@thebigdawgj What the fuck.

[@starblaze27]

I never have, nor will, read any of EL James's books, but with how you explain some of how this person writes, I am starting to wonder if this was a person I once met sometime in 1999-2002 on AOL in a chat room that was on RP/writing stories. There was this person who wrote like half a page of text(though if it was in a printed paperback it would have been a full page or more) and took about 5+ minutes to read, just to explain a woman winking at you. Like every line was to explain every eyelash, color of eyelid and its skin, etc. Everyone else in the room thought it was the best thing ever. Please don't tell me that is what this EL James does in her novels as well because if so, it makes me wonder if I met her online a decade before she began to be famous for... this.

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

Waaait, I heard a story about this one from a friend of my uncle, back then 😳!!! I'll ask him tomorrow about this just to make sure.

[@confusedaf1112]

Tbh that just sounds like most young fanfic writers. Reminds me of My Immortal, where the author felt the need to describe the character's outfits in extreme detail, in every single chapter.

[@coffeewolfproductions9113]

@@confusedaf1112 Thats not a very fair comparison, My Immortal was WAY more entertaining and was probably made by either a 14 year old or a troll, aka someone who wasn't doing this for a living.

[@debymello4756]

@@confusedaf1112 Holy shit, reminded me of a book my literature teacher talked about but said he wouldn't recomend to anyone not planning to make it in teater, let alone teenagers, because when his teacher did, he got so bored out if his minf with descripitions that he decided to turn on his ancient computer and edit it removing all the unnecessary descripitions and then sending to his classmates ou of pure spite. The original book is almost 800 pages long, his edit was a little over 200

[@Tustin2121]

I think it was after the last video you did on the Mister that I realized “hang on, if someone as bad as E.L. James can get published, wtf is stopping me? Well, first I need to actually write a book, but I’ve written fanfics before, a novel length one even before, and James proved it’s not a far leap from there to blockbusters, so let’s go then!

[@ameliasellers6396]

If I may ask, what fandom have you written for and if you have published your fics, what are the links for them?

[@junemerfort4964]

I know that "help me" at the end was supposed to be a joke but it kinda broke my heart.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Ditto!

[@interstellarspace-tears7683]

i have a quote that i want to share here that i feel fits in with this: "Our words have meaning, we can't just EL James our way through life."

[@mirjanbouma]

Nice!

[@gi0nbecell]

Wait… Granted, I didn‘t read any of James‘s books and will forever refuse to, but if I remember the synopsis part correctly, the kidnapping „plot“ leads the whole pack to Zagreb. Now, Maxim goes on a quest to Albania. What? I mentioned this before under the synopsis video, but those two locations don‘t fit (apart from being located roughly in south-east Europe or even vaguely the Balkan). Reminder: Zagreb is the capital of Croatia, a country that doesn‘t share a border with Albania and is an EU member. Zagreb isn’t even conveniently located when travelling from Croatia to Albania (considering that every border will be an EU periphery border and the most likely route from HR to Albania would lead via Serbia - and both Serbia and Croatia (imagine two countries that share basically the same language despite a few regional words and minor grammar changes, and Serbia usually using Cyrillic letters, many Serbs will refuse to understand Croatioan both spoken and written and vice versa) and Serbia and Albania (just a quick reminder of a certain area known as the Kosovo) are not exactly the best of friends, resulting in rather suspiciously watched and controlled borders (for that Region of the world, at least). Has this woman even bothered to open an atlas, twist a globe a bit or open frickin‘ Google Maps for one minute? Does she really lack any knowledge of European geography and/or politics (well, as a Brit she probably doesn‘t even understand properly what the EU is and represents, so…)? What the heck is wrong with this woman? There are weekly pulp crime novels with better plots and more accurate details about places, goddammit…

[@turkicnomad5632]

No and she never will. It’s not coincidental stupidity. This kind of lazy “Eastern European” villain dates back to orientalist literature pertaining to ottoman and Muslim caricatures. Earliest I saw was like late 1600s during the African slave trade and the most prevalent was around when bronte’s were most prolific. It’s basically innervated into English literary tradition and I hate it so much. She spits back what she’s swallowed from better writers with as much or more racism baked into their plots, but she does it worse so it’s much more obvious.

[@donaldhysa4836]

Interesting. What did they do in Albania? Did they try our byreks?

[@mirjanbouma]

@@donaldhysa4836 I bet James has no clue what those are. Honestly neither do I but I haven't written about a country I know nothing about, so Edit: did a Google, now I'm hungry. Those look good!

[@donaldhysa4836]

@@mirjanbouma Yeah they are. Especially in some specific cities they make them soooo good. Its all kind of funny to me cause I have a feeling she was trying to pick a vaguely Transilvanian-ish eastern european type of country but maybe throught literal Transilvania or Romania was too under the nose so just threw her dart on the map again blindfolded lol

[@mirjanbouma]

@@donaldhysa4836 that's very likely exactly what happened!

[@delikatessbruhe9843]

On some level I find it logical to have the POV character be the one EL James fantasises about. It gives her the chance to mold him exactly to her wishes, have him confirm that all her fantasies about this man are true by giving full insight into his thoughts - all the while conveniently blocking out, I suppose, that it was *her* who made him that way. I actually used to do this myself, writing characters how I wanted people to behave (and feel/think) irl. As long as you're aware what you're doing it can actually be quite therapeutic.

[@teodorapetkovic]

Was wondering which song will be parodied for the end credits... and then the fucking SpongeBob pajama pants reference had to ruin my day yet again. You win this one Noble!!!

[@mirandaruano67]

16:24 didn't the Albanian ambassador to the UK yell at E.L. James at the time this was first published?

[@andreakoroknai1071]

they should have in any case

[@seraphonica]

James's plotting always reminds me of that dialogue at the end of Speed. Her "romantic" "relationships" are all based on trauma, with the "characters" therein are desperately trying to convince themselves and others that said "relationships" are based on sex. With this in mind, of COURSE every book ends in a kidnapping and fails to resolve any plotlines. Because the new layer of trauma IS the conclusion, the new coat of paint on the rotting wood of said "characters" and their "relationships".

[@MrAtnarama7]

I still don’t understand how this woman made it to the best seller list, I tried to read 50 shades darker after seeing the first movie, I was unable to pass from the page 20, it was so badly written and idiotic it baffles me how she sold so many of her books.

[@donaldhysa4836]

There are a lot of women who are into these things thats how

[@artofthepossible7329]

I know someone who enjoyed 50 Shades, and I wish that person is a misogynistic, arrogant and general asshole of a male.

[@Sootielove]

I deeply appreciate going into detail about both the writing techniques, theming, and ethics when it comes to roasting these books. They don't deserve much good faith but the analytical skill makes the review even more effective :D

[@shinyagumon7015]

Personally I think the reason why E.L. James always uses kidnappings to resolve her plots might be because of her Twilight Alumni status. However unlike in her work the dramatic Endgame battle *actually makes sense* in Twilight. Also thanks for the funny Upperlip biting pictures Dom.

[@IxiaRayne]

Ohhhh. I didn’t even see that parallel but damn, you’re right! Makes sense!

[@sunchasericeserawings7166]

I was not expecting that Yu-Gi-Oh! reference at 19:14 ish! I legitimately choked on my food with startled laughter. Good work as always, Dom. Love to see your stuff every time!

[@APAndrew]

I haven’t read the book, but I think what E.L. meant was “indulgent, but warm.” Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in retail, but just because someone is polite, doesn’t mean they like you. “Tolerant, but warm” would work even better. Either way, it’s lousy writing. If you’re going to be a writer you need to communicate as effectively as possible. If I have to decode, loosely interpret, or guess what you meant then, in the words of Betty Gilpin in The Hunt, “You f-cked up, b-tch!”

[@AllWIllFall2Me]

As someone else who's worked in retail, I think "polite but warm" works, you just need to clarify it a little more. (ie, "a polite smile, with genuine warmth behind it" works better, because it acknowledges that polite smiles are something we wear OVER our real emotions) Or just go with "indulgent", as you allude to. Other good options, depending on what exactly E.L meant/based on the quick passage we see, could be "reassuring", or "gentle", Both mean smiles that express positive care, as well as a touch of reserve (gentle), or a sense of superiority (reassuring).

[@oneinathousand2156]

365 Days has dethroned 50 Shades and now this in my eyes in terms of how bad it is, but it’s still relevant to have reminders of how bad EL James’ work still is.

[@HaliaStone]

And 365 Days are getting movie adaptions. I genuinely hope no-one asks Dom to make a series of those, as good as it would be.

[@timothymclean]

Torn between asking what 365 Days is, looking it up myself, or closing the window and forgetting I ever heard that title.

[@niajohnson5594]

@@timothymclean Do yourself a favor and choose the latter. Trust me on this one, you don't wanna know. Halia, don't know tell them. I shouldn't have looked it up, but I did and now I'm tellin' you, you don't wanna know

[@HaliaStone]

@@niajohnson5594 i wish I could scrub knowledge of it from my brain, even if it came in the form of Amanda the Jedi and KrimsonRouge roasting the shit out of it 🤣 I really hope Dom doesn't have any patrons who want him to look at it, the fact he may have to do a The Mister lost in adaptation is bad enough

[@LizzieBee00]

I just finished reading the last 365 Days book. The cringe! The cringe! She ends with an author’s note. She says that all that glitters is not gold. I laughed out loud and rolled my eyes. She also had a character reference 50 shades of grey comparing her mob boss character, Mossimo, to Christian Grey. It came out of nowhere and was jarring in the scene. She also has a very obvious attraction to muscular bald men.

[@mightygregdoge]

EL James: She Only Resolves Kidnappings.

[@Chubbasaurus]

I still can't get over that the "love interest" is named for the word meaning proverbial saying, but Dom calling him Maxipad just made everything better. Thanks, Dom!

[@tabletopnephilim4633]

Finding out that Indigo from OSP edited this video is like the Joker finding out that Batman has been fighting other villains.

[@runningcommentary2125]

13:58, as someone who has served upper class people drinks, that is exactly how they talk.

[@Donttrustthatburger5144]

I stopped watching another one of your videos so I could watch your video. Bragging rights aside, you have all of my sympathies

[@Kingpin1880]

Fyi: below timestamp makes mentions of male genitalia. 12:48 at least we're getting some un-ironic women writing men as badly as men often write women. Some measure of balance has been restored.

[@JC-yy8iv]

Idk I think if she’d slightly rephrased “polite but warm” as “polite but not without warmth” it wouldn’t seem contradictory. I think what she meant to say is that it was impersonal but not to the extent it could be. But I also haven’t read the surrounding passage 🤷‍♀️

[@notellier]

Still think the best part of this book was our DJ lord Thiccbasket gushing about his mother's attractiveness. It was so uncomfortable but in a funny way, so I appreciated it. Other parts were just mind-numbingly boring or flat-out scary. Learn about consent, James, and don't write anything else in the meantime.

[@timothymclean]

I'm starting to think the author might have mommy issues. Or at the very least, I hope she doesn't have a Jocasta complex.

[@dimentiogamero4255]

I went to EL James website and found out she was writing a sequel. (She probably plans to make this a trilogy like 50 shades), so this isn't gonna be the end of your suffering!

[@BG12sofia]

Oh God, no...

[@coffeewolfproductions9113]

How is she gonna make this worse? Reveal that Caroline is planning on killing Maxim? ...actually nevermind that sounds like the best case scenario

[@berengustav7714]

Fuuuuuck...

[@mirjanbouma]

@@coffeewolfproductions9113 yeah that sounds like something maybe worth reading! Madness I say, it could never happen

[@quinnsinclair7028]

I feel like I could rewrite this book to make it good... and also gay. Okay, to start off, Max is a girl. The reason that she's a party girl who has random one night stands with women that never go anywhere is because she's a lesbian which she can't be openly due to the judgement she'd face from her family. Her older brother's fiance were dating prior to them getting together but she decided to deny her sexuality and marry the older brother out of a sense of duty to her family. Alyssa is the woman that finally gets Max to address what she wants out of life and decide that the opinions and status granted by her family name doesn't matter if she's miserable. She gives up her title and goes off with Alyssa for a happily ever after.

[@thetwomind5912]

Now THAT is a book I’d read

[@alex_ze_awsumyt5484]

Sounds like a genuinely interesting concept. If it was an actual book, I'd probably never realize that it was based off of "The Mister".

[@stephenjenkins7971]

That somehow sounds more cliché than the OG in the first place. How?

[@tristanhartup4936]

Already sounds a lot better

[@shineyluna1268]

so your saying that, the British lead, is effectively *Earl Gray.*

[@alarcon99]

im currently writing a fan fiction where one of Dom's cats has possessed his soul after hearing his stream reading this insufferable book only to read E.L. James to filth in all his glorious cattiness

[@Caernath]

I strongly suspect that Maxim Trevelyan is in fact the Lord Darcy from the Mirror Universe.

[@simialogue]

So, watching a literary flagellant immolate their sensibilities by not only reading but analyzing the works of EL James for my apparent need of schadenfreude only proves that I have no better discernment than those who allow such an author to exist in the first place.

[@cassandra.wladyslava]

11:44 I have this image in my head of his tongue and nose actually physically changing places on his face and she’s trying to stop him completing some weird, Eldritch metamorphosis. Edit: I just had a thought. I wonder if James was trying to “Baby It’s Cold Outside” this bit. The song has a bit of a reputation for being a bit…ominous. The lyrics can be (mis)interpreted as the female singer being pressured by the male singer, who is making advances towards her, when really the song is about the two lovers playfully flirting and convincing themselves that staying and getting it on is a great idea because it’s fucking freezing out. Alesia’s being all scandalized plus her “feeble” attempts to fight Maxim off when he’s nosing her nethers could be James’ way of trying to convey a sort of “OMG! I can’t believe we’re doing this! It’s so naughty! 😉” vibe. That or she was going for “It’s ok because she’s going to end up liking it.”

[@lilaichimaru]

Uuuh the ending song! As a man of culture once said: "leave spongebob out of your sex scenes E.L. James"

[@jonasdatlas4668]

Ah, so this is the review with the shouty bit. I’m sure it’ll be quite cathartic, actually almost tempted to rewatch part of the live readings in preparation.

[@Nick_C1997]

So, I was running some errands yesterday and I saw the sequel ‘The Missus’ being advertised in the window of my local bookstore, I was afraid for Dom, but I also couldn’t help but laugh that it was already being sold for half price

[@Wince_Media]

The "biting upper lip" bit reminds me of a shower thought o read thst said "biting your lower lip is seen as sexy but biting your upper lip is seen as absolutely ridiculous"

[@becuaseimbored3481]

The line "polite but warm smile " could mean that she smiled out of courtesy, but at least a part of it was genuine.

[@wesleywiggins958]

The title of this video could be EL James STILL Doesn't Understand & it would also be correct

[@dangerousalphabets5267]

The not wanting to be seen as a gold digger somewhat reminds me of Finns. Your wisting relatives/friends and they ask if you want coffee. The right thing is to say "oh no, not for me. I don't need anything" and fight against the thought and only after the person who you're visiting insists and say that they are making some for themselves you are allowed to say yes. Then drink 4 cups but you have to resist every time. Same with every gift or anything anyone is offering. Our worst nightmare is that somebody would think that we are greedy.

[@ideapressproductions1864]

Hello, Dominic! 27:30 Speaking of Daphne du Maurier, I think you would have a very interesting and fun time going down the rabbithole that is her ancestry, as it could be argued that George du Maurier, her paternal grandfather, created a character in his book Trilby who influenced all future dark-romance-style stories, including directly inspiring Gaston Leroux's infamous novel The Phantom of the Opera 👀

[@redwolf121990]

Love how much venom Dom can insert into the name of the author and her work.

[@patarsplays7292]

Hey... i've been having a pretty tough time with life lately. Just want to let you know that your videos always make my day! Keep up the great work!

[@kristinlundell9924]

Hope you can find joy even when things are tough. You're not alone

[@logancole5101]

I took "sneakily unloading his gun" as a euphemism and had to do a double take.

[@myheartismadeofstars]

Seriously one of my romantic leads is a 4'9 girl with little to no chest, who wears her hair in pigtails, is shy and collects (and plays with) toys...and I think SHE is less infantilized than Alessia! She's a maid, like Alessia is, but she's proactive. She's a caretaker (big sister figure to some of the daughters of the house) she is always looking to improve herself, and she, despite her shyness, is the one who first shows interest in her love interest! She's not naive (hell her best friend is a huge cynic lmao). (I do have another character who is traumatized similar to Alessia but her arc is literally finding her agency and learning who she is. including that it's okay to be selfish)

[@kennyhudson9201]

Question, in real life, do you find it that most people change and find their agency? Or do most people stay the same? I think it is more realistic for characters to not change dramatically during a story. Most people who are not selfish, never learn to be selfish and vice versa. I know it's fiction, but at some point it becomes complete fantasy to think adults will 180 change who they are.

[@myheartismadeofstars]

@@kennyhudson9201 Yeah, I do think it's realistic to have characters change dramatically. For better or worse. I've seen it happen. And I think that if you have a character like Alessia they BETTER gain some agency. Alessia is so passive and selfless that it's annoying. If she doesn't change from that, she's not likeable or interesting. The worst thing a character can be is uninteresting.

[@kennyhudson9201]

@@myheartismadeofstars How often do you see that? I'm not saying no one anywhere ever changes, but I am saying it is not normal. Most people don't change. People who change are unicorns, rare and borderline unbelievable. How can it be realistic when it is super uncommon among humans? What would be realistic is NOT changing, because that's what the vast majority of us do. Or better make the character think they have changed while showing us the audience that they haven't actually. That is realistic, a person not changing at all, but believing they did. Sometimes you need the passive and selfless characters to show a clear contrast to those that are not passive and selfless.

[@myheartismadeofstars]

@@kennyhudson9201 I disagree. I would say most people change in some way, it might not be 180 but if you compare them with themselves from several years ago you notice it. I'm way more confident than I was a couple years ago and I have more skills than I did. But I'm still the same person. I'm less fearful (though I still don't like loud sudden noises) and I'm capable of voicing my issues instead of just internalizing them. These are small things, but have a big impact. Characters very rarely do a 180 right away either (and when they do it usually isn't very well written). One of the best examples of character development I've seen recently is a male character going from essentially a lazy, apathetic manchild to a responsible adult who is willing to risk everything for the people he cares about. It was very gradual, you see a 'hey he wouldn't have done this at the beginning of the story' moment a little more than halfway through the story and he continues to make slow progress to the end. I've written one character who changed drastically right away, and it was because she was forced to be a certain way and changed to her true self when she got the chance

[@SatanicBarbeque]

Wait wait wait, master's of the universe?? What kind of workout routine has she committed to that allows her to carry around such copious amounts of AUDACITY?

[@needcoffe]

The amount of empahisis he puts in her name make her sound like villain... and I for one agree with that statement

[@aaronmartin6108]

I think this is a first time a sponsor callout has made me laugh so hard. You fight that box, Dom. Your honor demands it!

[@morganbiddlecom]

When Dom got to the biting her upper lip bit, I started trying to bite my upper lip, only to glance over and see my partner biting his as well. He looked ridiculous and based on his reaction, so did I!

[@Roadent1241]

All I can visualise is that dumb face Bart Simpson pulls in early Simpsons. Is looking like a troll with bottom jaw misplacement supposed to be attractive?

[@jerushamaxwell281]

Morgan, I'm very late to the party here, but I want to insert this memorable visual bit performed by a standup comedian on the subject of lip-biting. 1. Seductive - bite lower lip softly with eyes half-lidded. 2. Frightful - bite entire upper lip, with eyes popped open wide.

[@margaretschaufele6502]

I wondered if it might be more natural if you had an underbite. Still not sure it's a good substitute, though.

[@taekwongurl]

We love you Dom! And the old and new Gods accept your sacrifice. Edit: something you said about Grey and Thick basket triggered a sudden horrible realization that EL JAMES IS MAYBE TRYING TO MAKE A ROMANCE UNIVERSE - LIKE AN AVENGERS MCU THING. the thing is, she's arrogant enough to do it and think she came up with something new.