Elisode 23 - The Decca Tree

An example of a less well known mic technique for orchestra and choirs in bigger spaces - very common large productions in high budget studios.
The mix of one section is here
www.eastanglia...

[@artysanmobile]

Thank you so much for this. I’ve long wanted to hear from a user about Decca Tree setup. It’s the only coincident microphone array I haven’t used, mostly because of the logistics of placement. With your imparted knowledge, I feel confident to try it. I have never found any use at all for widely spaced A/B, which I see as merely a capitulation to the concert promoter’s insistence on impeccable sound and perfect invisibility. It occurs to me that a flown ‘tree’ of remote-capsule microphones might come near to this impossible ideal. They are available in sub cardioid from DPA and Schoeps for that forward center. Over the decades, I have used M/S Neumann 87s very successfully and later, the Calrec Soundfield MkIV which, to me, is about perfect. As the Soundfield has both the encoded stereo and four individual capsule outputs, it offers an enormous variety of configurations. The encoded output can be zoomed in with a constantly variable pot. This reminds me of the center mic’s effect in your tree setup. The individual capsule outputs even have a name - B format, and can be recorded as such, then run through the encoder afterwards to get the desired directionality after the fact.

[@ersbay5970]

"A little less conversation a little more action."

[@thegoodgeneral]

That was cool! Thanks for sharing your experiences!

[@danield2000]

Height can be anything you like. I usually go with 2.5m -3m.

[@wxexw]

Facinating explanation!

[@Mash333]

A real, working vintage M50 will be over $25-50,000. Depending on condition and history. Good luck even finding one.

[@pauljohnson4590]

If I had that money, I'd be feet up on a desert island!

[@digitalstudioulm]

Thanks for your video. It is really amazing. But just a question about mikes. I use three KM183 from Neumann. It works pretty well so far. But for a large orchester with 80 musicians and more it is in my opinion not efficient enough. So I would like to add outriggers. What is your recommendation for place it right and left of the center? Base is about 18m. Second is the placement of percussion in the back of the orchester. They are not very present. Let's say more in the "off". Is it recommend to use extra mikes for it? Thanks.

[@pauljohnson4590]

The trouble is that many of the venues I work in are compromised. I don't mean the acoustics, but the ability to put your stereo mics in just the right place. If they have to be ground supported, people complain. I guess that if you book a space, you put the mics just where they need to go. Sometimes the orchestra desks have been set up very wide - especially when depth is limited and width available. For me this is when outriggers work as a compromise - they get you the edges but the blending creates some blurring of the soundstage . That's very much how I do things. I record them and hopefully don't use them. Spot mics are very difficult to get right. In the mix you have to faff with time delays and artificial reverb to make them sit well. I remember A Level Music Technology, when as Principal Examiner, we made kids i rotten rooms with rotten orchestra record classical (in the main). They were obsessed with spot mics and I don't think any ever did it properly. For me it's time, level and matching the acoustic, but you can never guarantee the spot mic will cure it. This pretty much applies to the percussion. If you have lots of mics and lots of channels, then you can make it work, but it is so easy to make them sound unreal.

[@henrywebstermusic1]

Where is this strange church?! Fascinating.

[@pauljohnson4590]

It's Pakefield Church, on the clifftop, just south of Lowestoft in Suffolk - two neighbouring Parishes, who didn't get on too well, so they built two churches next to each other! At some point, the wall between was removed making a kind of double church!

[@arcoholic3]

Thank you for your insightful explanation of this method of recording. I think I finally understand the advantages. I liked the recording as well. I wonder if this method would be good for field recording ambient sounds and effects. I already use a spaced omnidirectional pair for this. Maybe I can adapt this method for my needs-it occurs to me that a Decca Tree configuration could be suspended on a boom arm from a building over a road to record the traffic? Experimentation is needed....And tomorrow is Saturday! Hoorah!

[@pauljohnson4590]

No I don’t think so. It really does a good job recording the sound source within a reverberant space, but outside I think the system would work against you. My experience with recording this kind of thing is that you want in most cases, as much of the sound source as possible with as little other sound as possible so you can recreate the ambience of the space afterwards? M/S probably offers the most possibilities in post, with spaced and coincident techniques having a place. The Decca Tree seems to work really well in a space already having er, character, if that makes sense.

[@arcoholic3]

@@pauljohnson4590 Wow, thank you for the quick reply. I was thinking about trying it out in a forest above a brook or stream, I thought it might give me a clear water sound with a good stereo forest ambience image. Then I found this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5_SqXiAiLinorc So I will try it out and see what happens - as I've always said, theory comes second to ears! Brilliant stuff.

[@pauljohnson4590]

@@arcoholic3 The question is what are you recording it for? For realism, you don't want normally the sort of thing the Decca Tree does. It takes the sense of stereo positional information and enhances it - but I get the definite feeling that it is creating things that you 'wish' were there. If you are outside, and a cricket is chirping - do you want to be able to close your eyes and point to it, but my experiments with the Decca Tree are that it would make that one cricket a small group of crickets chirping in unison. Do you want that, or do you want realism? I used to record lots of sound effects and wild tracks for theatre and video and the 'realistic but boring' fitted in better. The choir I recorded with the Decca Tree sounded better than my ears suggested when I was there, and they sounded fuller and bigger. Do you actually want that with your outside stuff? If yes - go for it!

[@fdschuler7863]

The angle of the left and right microphones should be at 45 degrees or greater. What you have is A B with a centre mic.

[@pauljohnson4590]

I’m a little confused, is there a physical impact to rotating an omni 45 degrees? I’m assuming we’re talking about the increase presence in the forward position making a difference?

[@GingerDrums]

​@@pauljohnson4590Decca tree is not normally Omni, it's wide cardioid. However rotating the mic housing so it looks different won't neccecarily change the sound or angle of the capsule, so I'm not sure what 45° has to do with anything.

[@pauljohnson4590]

@@GingerDrums the original decca tree used omnis that were a little directional at hf so this is the reason for the 45 degree angles in an omni

[@GingerDrums]

@@pauljohnson4590 ah you mean angled 45° In the vertical axis! Yes 💯

[@GingerDrums]

@@pauljohnson4590 absolutely. Wide cardioid for the win :))

[@leepritchard]

Interesting video. I was considering using a diy decca tree to record a brass band but may need a rethink. I don't have omnis and would have to get them high up by the sounds of it.

[@pauljohnson4590]

The real benefit is that a brass band, in a nice sounding space would record really well with the Decca Tree - I'm a convert, but you do need omnis, for the space 'capture'. I've just found the elderly pair of omnis I used to use - but they have to go up high, and while a boom stand extended is high, it's risky with a lot of weight up top!

[@Sergio.GonzalezPrats]

"H6 has very nice preamps" what? how? based on what? if the H6 has nice preamps what's a Millennia? holly smokes

[@pauljohnson4590]

based on experience of over 50 years. They are forgiving with levels, no early distortion, they're noise free and do what preamps should do, amplify as accurately as they can. No character, no tone changing, no 'magic'. Plug any mic in and hear the differences. So many people now seem to love preamps that modify the sound, and while for some situations, I understand this, that is not for me - if I want changes to the sound, that's processing, not amplification.

[@Sergio.GonzalezPrats]

I'm sorry mr Johnson, but H6 preamps are very far from being clean and noise free, and your 50 years experience won't make them sound anything closer to a standard quality transparent preamp for Classical or Early Music like GML, Grace, Millennia, Martech MSS-10 etc... @@pauljohnson4590