Ellen, An Imperfect Lesbian Icon: A Deep Dive

[@MountainsoftheHeart]

This definitely speaks to the idea that we can be grateful for one action or stance a person takes without considering them a role model.

[@taylor3950]

Hooray for nuance!

[@coolchameleon21]

exactly. i think it’s so ridiculous that liberals and left leaning public figures are expected to be held to this standard of perfection. it’s dehumanizing and it’s a set up because it’s an impossible standard to live up to. right leaning public figures can behave any way they want, because they’re not “virtue signaling” so apparently it doesn’t matter what they do or how they treat people…because according to the right they’re not “pretending” to be good people.

[@jonathanbowers8964]

Exactly. Another example of how people can do heroic actions yet still be a relatively bad person in their day to day actions would be Gandhi. While he did amazing things for India, he also was an awful husband and father and rather misogynistic. MLK also left a powerful legacy, but had several affairs during his marriage. Granted Ellen is in no way as important as these figures, we do have to acknowledge that she played a pivotal role in making middle class white women accepting of gay and lesbian folks. I would probably put her possibly in the same category as Jackie Robinson (as a key celebrity that was pushing for acceptance and served as an icon of a changing world).

[@sarahbananarama]

I remember clips about her personal life that were played on her show, and found her very unrelatable, and while I think it's good she got called out, what bugs me a bit about it all is that there are so many other people in her industry that get a pass, even though they are known for the same antics or way, way worse stuff. And I'm not saying that makes her behavior okay, but it makes me question the people who overlook stuff with other celebrities and take such glee in hating her, specifically.* Which ties in perfectly with your comment, in a way, because while I may agree on certain things with others, most people are hypocrites(including me). *Would really have been nice if people had shown the same energy towards Johnny Depp, for instance, instead of preemptively making fun of a survivor while the trial was still going. Some people try to downplay their part in it now, but I wonder how many victims were encouraged to keep their mouth shut after witnessing this.

[@jonathanbowers8964]

@@sarahbananarama I agree. Her actions were nothing compared to Louis CK (who is somehow making something of a comeback) or the many other male entertainers who were supposedly cancelled by the Me Too movement. Even Kanye, who literally praised Adolf still has loyal fans. The difference is that Ellen built her brand on "kindness" and her personality as such had an audience who would be less willing to "separate the art for the artist". It also doesn't help to be an aging woman in a patriarchal society (and in particular in an industry where very few women get to have meaningful work past menopause). Even under the best of circumstances, it was likely her show would have fallen off in the next few years (even Oprah abandoned her show when she got into her 60s). TL;DR we need to actually hold men in entertainment to far higher standards and stop letting literal criminals and fascist sympathizers have stealth comebacks.

[@madonna816]

As a queer elder, this is spot on. The info & the assessments. She’s grown into a deeply problematic person, but the impact she had cannot be understated…which is why her crap is so bloody disappointing.

[@larissabrglum3856]

I think a good way to put it is that we needed her in the nineties, but we don't really need her anymore

[@madonna816]

@@larissabrglum3856 regardless of need, it sucks. I also didn’t need help completing my complete comment, thanks. (Frankly, our collective shit isn’t exactly safe, free, & tidy, either. Doesn’t make her or any specific person ‘needed,’ but it certainly wouldn’t have hurt to have her not completely suck.)

[@larissabrglum3856]

​@@madonna816 I was contributing my thought on the situation, people tend to do that in comment sections

[@YourQueerGreatAuntie]

Watching the broadcast of "The Puppy Episode" was the moment I realised I was (and still am!) a lesbian. I was in a relationship with a man at the time, I was 20, had assumed I was bisexual before then. I'm in Ireland, and in my 47 years, the following changes have happened: Abortion was criminalised Divorce was legalised Condoms became available for purchase without prescription and for under-18s Homosexuality was decriminalised Same-sex marriage was legalised Trans self-ID was legalised Abortion was decriminalised All but the first in that list happened when I was a teen or older, and politically aware and active. My parents are still alive (were among the first to legally divorce in Ireland!), and have welcomed each of these changes with joy and optimism. I'm still waiting for disability rights, but we're working on it!

[@johnniethepoet]

It was so funny, and kinda painful to watch. I was one of those who sat in front of the TV watching the live broadcast.

[@johnniethepoet]

And the US is poised to ruin our children and make us trans adults illegal. The sin is what they are doing not what we are doing. But then I don’t believe in “sin”.

[@tryingnot2bdumb]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@ClaireLeslie-eu4tl]

Good for you honey

[@SibylleLeon]

I remember the founding of the first gay and lesbian society at UCG (now University of Galway). And the day they handed out leaflets with abortion information which were gone in minutes because they contained a condom taped to the last page! 🤣❤ This was in the early 90s.

[@NymphaeaDreams]

I'm an older millennial and I remember my family watching the sitcom UP UNTIL Ellen's character came out and then my parents banned the show in the family house. I was very young so I didn't understand what coming out, or even what a lesbian is. But it did bring enough attention to the topic for me to understand in my teens that "I will not tell my parents I am bi, like women, and date women". And I never did tell them. But all my siblings know and always supported it.

[@jennifers5560]

❤

[@TiffanyAllen1784]

Yeah, my family watched it until she came out, too.

[@KathrynHenny]

Samesies, suddenly my religious parents no longer thought it was funny but harmful. They chose to barely address why we no longer watched it though so I just inferred it was gayness.

[@AngelavengerL]

That was my experience when Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer got a girlfriend. I remember my father who loved the show went off about how gross it was and a bunch of religious stuff. Right then I was like "ok never tell him about my interest in girls"

[@tiarezavaleta8850]

​So they were okey with vampires with no soul, premarital sex werewolf and demons but they draw a line with lesbians? I swear religious people are sometimes so weird

[@mxnjones]

Ellen’s coming out did open the door for more gay actors and characters on TV. I was a young teen when “The Puppy Episode” came out; I don’t remember watching it, but I did watch her interview on the Oprah Show. It wasn’t until later that the impact of Ellen’s interview hit me. I had to come to terms with my own queerness and figure out that it wasn’t just a ‘white people thing’, first. Folks like Queen Latifah, Da Brat, and Wanda Sykes were infinitely more impactful to me as a Black baby queer…but Ellen did help get the ball rolling.

[@KariIzumi1]

Oof, as a Black woman, I'm so many that Stonewall was so whitewashed that people now think it was all Pete Buttigeig assimilates who were leading Pride.

[@johnniethepoet]

@@mxnjones I was so happy when Queen Latifah came out. What a role model for young black queers!

[@normaowens7340]

The true gay icons are people like you and your wife! Everyday people who live your lives day to day! You deal with the haters while living your lives! I am not gay, but I see the real heroes! Those of you who deal with hate while raising your families, showing others that love is love , and like the rest of us, putting one foot in front of the other!

[@bruceboa6384]

+

[@ClaireLeslie-eu4tl]

Isn’t she great?

[@normaowens7340]

@@ClaireLeslie-eu4tl I love her! Even with all that has been thrown at her, she comes on and makes us smile, laugh and are able to understand more!

[@annikaausder3359]

yes!! but that didn't work without social media and without a basic acceptance :)

[@MM-km1vl]

This^^

[@andrewmondt771]

I've never lost it watching a youtube episode until today. I can not tel you how impactful the mention of older queer folk was. I'm a 56 year old gay man. That really isn't that terribly old. Us ""elder" gay men have survived the HIV/AIDS crisis at its worst, delt with a much more homophobic world yet have survived and often thrived. however we are also invisible. Agism in the queer media is rampant. Referring to a man in his late thirties as "daddy" is an example. As a single person I may as well be made of glass. I have great friends and am active in the community. It can suck being the only single person in the room when everybody around you is coupled. The older queers have so much to offer the young follk. We just aren't often seen. I'd love to see what your thoughts are if/when you do a deep dive into aging while being LGBT+. In fact you can feel free to ask me about it. You rock and thanks!

[@RexytheRexy]

I'm a few years shy of 40, and ageism has naturally had my attention for many reasons - it's seemed particularly egregious in modern protest movements and the LGBTQIA+ community of late. You should be, and feel, celebrated and visible. I'd love to see Jessica make that video, and hope to see and learn from you in it. Much love to you from a queer ex-whippersnapper. 💜

[@play-fool]

I'm only 31 and I can see it for myself. Even when I *was* really young, I did think it was weird how many seemingly Adult characters in film and books who were Realizing Their Dreams were all... like, 18, 21, 25 at the latest, and by that point it was considered their last shot. Now that I'm past 30 it's absolutely infuriating how media *and* most online content counts you out and refuses to see you as a sexual being who is still striving for something because you aren't the target demographic for most advertisers - unless it's for specific problems you want to solve so you can look like you ARE in that demographic. It just seems like once you aren't visibly *young*, you are also not of interest, to other people and to the outside world, unless you have influence or authority and even those things still can't buy you *relationships* or real connections to people and to communities. The content that does challenge those attitudes is always spending all its time defending itself for doing so, so it's hard to make the argument that the mere existence of inclusive media counts as proof that most people don't accept the stereotypes, either. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think about the information gaps that have come along with generational gaps a lot, and it's nice to hear from someone who is not under 35, since again, online content is generally focused on and toward very young people. As a millennial I can say that those of us who grew up on the internet don't know what we don't know, and we typically have no idea what has been forgotten because no one had the time to teach us and we didn't have OR take the time to learn before information overload became our way of life. ❤

[@sarahderksen4945]

That would be an interesting video yes!

[@notlucadaniel]

as a 27yo transmasc queer i’ve always been sad to not have more older gays around as friends/elders and i’m not quite sure what to do about it or how to meet them you know? i find that my queer social circles, events that i’d go to etc. don’t really have anyone above the age of 35-40

[@XxYwise]

That's because elders remember things they were there for, and are not easily convinced otherwise. This is a big problem for the modern movement, which will rewrite history at a moment's notice if it should be considered politically expedient. See for example: (1) who threw the first brick at Stonewall, (2) were there large numbers of gender non-conforming children unhelpfully diagnosed with the DSM-IV dysphoria who would NOT be diagnosed under the DSM-5, (3) didn't many if not most gays and lesbians go through a gender dysphoric period of childhood, (4) what has been the intersex community's relationship with "hermaphroditism," and (5) did the A originally stand for allies or asexuals? (6) What is assigned at birth: gender or sex or both? (7) FTM and MTF, are the m&f genders or sexes? Etc. It's tough to be an elder in a community that considers an accurate memory of an unchanging past to be problematic at best.

[@castaway2850]

i appreciate the nuance of this video. we can acknowledge all the good ellen has done for the queer community while also acknowledging that she’s not the most wonderful person.

[@DaveSlutzky]

Agreed! I am glad that we are getting to the point when we can have more nuance to this conversation.

[@ElicBehexan]

I am 70. Now, I'm actually ACE, but I really never lived with a member of the opposite sex. I married my same sex roommate in 2016. I think she was actually straight, but she never found a man who she was willing to marry, and never got asked because, I think, they thought she was gay. I suspect the reason was she would not put up with a man bossing her around. She also wasn't shy about telling people how she put an attempted rapist in the hospital after he tried to grab her. (She emasculated him or, never mess around with someone with a blind stick.)

[@jasminvomwalde7497]

Boston marriages ftw

[@Steph-zo5zk]

Haha amazing I would have married her too after hearing that story

[@ElicBehexan]

@@jasminvomwalde7497 learn something new every day, thanks!

[@hughcaldwell1034]

I've thankfully never had to use my white cane for that, but it's always an option...

[@ElicBehexan]

@@hughcaldwell1034 In the class taught at the Blind School on how to use a white cane, the teacher taught the kids what she called "cane-fu." I still have my wife's white cane by the back door. I used to use it to turn on and off the window unit ac before I replaced that ac. My wife didn't need to use a white cane since she never went anywhere if I wasn't driving or, before she came home to work and before I retired, she took transit to work. I would pick her up after she got off. Then I retired and I took her to and from work and to doctor appointments. And she doesn't need it now because... well, she passed in 2022.

[@sianthesheep]

I think it is perhaps hard in our current society to imagine how starved we were for positive representation at that time and what a big deal Ellen coming out was. I remember sneakily staying up to watch it as a still firmly in the closet (and also at convent school!) teenager and it did genuinely make me feel less alone.

[@jennifers5560]

❤

[@leighlampley1178]

I so agree with this - I was in my mid 20's in a small town. It was SUCH a big deal to be able to see Ellen's coming out episode on TV! We had virtually nothing that looked like us up until then. She was a hero for what she did - and she paid a heavy, heavy price for her bravery - blacklisted from tv for a number of years. In all of this "cancellation" talk, it seems to ignore the knocks she took. I'm not saying she is perfect - noone is - but we need to a little more sympathetic to what it's like to be in someone else's shoes.

[@sh-qd4hf]

Ellen's story also reminds me of Roseanne. That show meant a lot to me as a fat, low income, baby queer. They had multiple episodes and characters referencing gay characters in (sure, sometimes messy, but) supportive ways. Seeing Roseanne Barr herself drink the right wing juice crushed me.

[@egg_bun_]

Was the character queer?

[@fthurman]

@@egg_bun_ Rosanne(the character) herself? no. Though she WAS fat and, uh, GNC in not presenting femininity in the typical way that DID, ime, speak to a lot of queer folks.

[@egg_bun_]

@@fthurman that makes a lot of sense. I feel the same way. I remember when I was really young, I saw a fat woman at church with a low ponytail, with plain clothing and no makeup, and that was pretty formative for me.

[@dawnamariamiriam]

Same, tho I didn't realize I was gay until the show was done. The path Roseanne has gone down is very disappointing.

[@Megan.eco-Instinct]

*same*

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

I think Ellen is one of those people I think I would not get along with personally, but am so grateful she blazed a trail with her work. Ellen walked so today's queers can run

[@VeretenoVids]

I grew up in the 70s and 80s. (Yes, Gen Xer) I have two family members who are gay, one of whom did not survive the AIDS crisis. I ran with the "artsy" crowd in high school, so I had several gay friends and understood that our friend group was a sort of safe little bubble for them in small-ish town middle America. So, yes, I remember what a HUGE deal it was when she came out. I think perhaps that's why learning she had become a total a****** felt like a gut punch. Thank you for providing a great analysis of the trajectory of her career and cultural impact--both positive and negative.

[@judebrown4103]

Gay boomer here. Turn sixty-six this year, came out in the early eighties, been with my civil partner/wife forty-one years. Loved Ellen for coming out in the Puppy episode the way she did, had no idea of the things she's done recently, very sad to hear it. 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

[@MsShaunaM]

Hello, Jessica! You have a keen way of discussing topics that I admire. You mentioned the lack of older and elder LGBTQ+ representation. At the end of June, I was at a Stonewall Remembrance ceremony in Rochester, NY, and had a few moments to speak at the event. Afterward, a young trans man (18?) from Tennessee came up to me as giddy as a new puppy. He had never met an openly out elder trans person before (66+). My very presence gave him hope that he can grow old and be happy. As he was fumbling for words, I interrupted him and said I knew what he was trying to say. With that I hugged him. Reminded him that he is never alone. I share this to emphasize your point that representation matters, and that repre3sentation of older LGBTQ+ people is more important than ever.

[@queenmotherhane4374]

My church houses our town’s new Pride Center. One of the senior lesbians in our congregation is doing LGBTQ+ outreach to our local senior center.

[@lauramathews3151]

Will & Grace was a gem. Bc it embraced the flaws of it's characters as equals and poked fun at all of them as equals. Not that it didn't caricature and stereotype the community. And obviously it wasn't that inclusive, but it really got the ball rolling.

[@kikidevine694]

And it invented 'the Karen '

[@NighttimeBird]

Thank God there wasn’t social media back then so that Debra could express her opinions 😅

[@worldsbiggestholdthegirlfan]

@@NighttimeBirdGod that woman scares me

[@jillsarah7356]

Found the antisemite

[@Alusnovalotus]

Meh. Ellen and WIll & Grace were just a very small sliver demographic of the entire queer population. I hated Ellen forever and stopped watching Will and grace in their third season. The reboot, I heard was a catastrophe.

[@CorwinFound]

Not related to this episode, I want to thank you for your disability education, specifically on EDS. I have a newish friend who has a disability and I started asking about it one day (she was happy to talk about it) and she was explaining her situation and I said, "Is it like EDS?" Turns out it _is_ EDS and she was pretty suprised I even knew of it. Obviously it was nice for my friend to be able to speak about it with someone who has at least an awareness and very basic understanding of it. But your education on EDS, less visible disabilities, and the challenges younger people with disabilities have has made me far more compassionate about it. Not that I would ever purposefully be insensitive or dismissive, but ignorance makes people say stupid and thoughtlessly cruel things. So thank you so much for what you do! It has real impact on real people in sometimes unexpected ways.

[@mcjohn5420]

Wow. Another world-class effort. Thank you for this. My wife and I VIVIDLY remember setting everything else aside to watch, and tape, The Puppy Episode when it first aired in 1997. We even unplugged the house phone (a thing you could do then) so that no one would interrupt while we were watching. I sat with a notebook in my lap, carefully writing down the name of every company that dared air a commercial during Ellen's coming-out broadcast, and tucked it into the tape for posterity. When we downsized our household for a cross-country move a quarter-century later, that tape was one of the very few household goods we kept. I was heartbroken, but not surprised, to find out that she was cruel to everyone on her talk show. There's a certain credit-to-my-race approach many celebrities from minority communities employ to present themselves as non-threatening, benevolent, and egalitarian; notably, lesbian comedian/actor/talk-show host Rosie O'Donnell, whose performance career has many similarities to that of Ellen DeGeneres, developed a public persona of the Queen of Nice that she only set aside in favor of an effervescent, vinegary, unapologetic progressivism after her show had safely been part of TV history for several years. I have always remembered a comment made by Sidney Poitier, one of the first high-profile Black actors who achieved top-of-the-marquee box-office success in the movies. In the early 1960s, an interviewer asked him why he always played good guys; didn't he ever long to sink his teeth into a meaty role as a snarling villain every once in a while? Poitier replied, "I'm the only one. I'm the only Negro actor who works with any degree of regularity. Wait till there are six of us; then one of us can play the villain all the time." Strivers and scrappers, especially those from unprivileged socioeconomic classes, often suspect that they cannot afford to practice respect or benevolence when they finally reach the top. While there are exceptions--the Obama White House was able to operate within a rigid framework of egalitarian courtesy while ditching time-consuming pleasantries like "Please" and "Thank you"--it shouldn't surprise anyone to find vulnerable high-profile notables jumping immediately to bullying, coercion, and thuggery. We'll know things have changed when the concept of noblesse oblige is adopted not just by 700-year-old aristocratic families, but also by celebrities who made it from the trailer park all the way to the fanciest mansion in the Hamptons.

[@amberisobel356]

I think there’s a difference between having beliefs and weaponising them. Yes, George Bush is allowed to have his own opinions and yes, Ellen can be friends with him despite this. But he actively tried to pass legislation that would have encouraged violence and discrimination against queer people. Endangering a whole group of people because their existence goes against your personal beliefs is completely different to disagreeing with your friends. It’s honestly wild that she tried to make that comparison and it definitely shows her privilege imo.

[@mcjohn5420]

Yeah, I want a GIF of Jessica wagging her finger and going, "No. No, we can't be friends." I would use it at least three times a week.

[@christopherb501]

I continue to be baffled that ANYONE thinks that "having rights" is "just a matter of opinion".

[@oluwanike90]

I love the shout-out to Tipping the Velvet. ❤ The book and the BBC TV adaptation changed my life as a teenager.

[@jennifers5560]

I must have watched that show a hundred times!

[@oluwanike90]

​​@@jennifers5560 Same! The book and the show really peaked my gender curiosity, and I'm so thankful for that as a trans man now. It is because of Ellen and shows like that, that allowed me to think of just being who I am was even a remote possibility, and it is now a reality.

[@milliescient]

I thought that was a euphemism

[@oluwanike90]

@@milliescient It was in the late 19th century lol

[@WebofHope]

I always appreciate the wide number of various Jessicas arguing, providing commentary, and going on ADHYD research binges in the background.

[@VioletDeVille]

As a trans performer, I’ve seen directly the seen the positive impact of my visibility as a trans woman. I have a burlesque number-a talking strip about my experiences as a trans burlesque performer-about the positive impact my presence on stage has had on people. Thank you for your videos and your effort. 💜💜💜

[@tiffanyroth583]

I live in Kansas. I'm openly ⚤ and going to celebrate my 40th birthday. I never expected to see this milestone.

[@jennifers5560]

❤

[@verloren918]

Yep. I'm just about a year older than you, and I had a small crisis about 40. Not in the typical mid-life crisis sort of way you hear about, but in the "well crap, I didn't think I would make it this far, NOW what?" way. Now... you get to do whatever you want 😊

[@archdevil7472]

I love so much that you are! I'm fairly young (teen aged) and it's so scary to know if I'll live for the next year, but trans people living their lives, and living beyond myself is so inspiring and lovely. I wish you a happy birthday (⁠◕⁠ᴗ⁠◕⁠✿⁠)

[@tiffanyroth583]

@@verloren918 lol figuring out what I want to do has been fun. I have so many hobbies lol.

[@tiffanyroth583]

@@archdevil7472 thank you so much. I can't wait to celebrate your birthday with you. I know it seems impossible, but hang in there. My best friend is trans and he is in his 40s. We are beyond excited to be the elders that we needed. I love you so much. I'm so proud of you.

[@HOHNancy]

Bertie is adorable! ❤ Also, I remember that episode when Ellen was singing in the mirror “I’m witty, and pretty and- “ and then the credits showed up.

[@jennifers5560]

They had so many little scenes like that until The Puppy episode. I remember one where they were looking for her and she was like “I’m in the closet”

[@TiffanyAllen1784]

She and Rosie O’Donnell did a whole bit about possibly being Lebanese (if I recall it was based on someone who accused them of that) where it was clear neither of them of them were talking about being from Lebanon.

[@clancyalexander6192]

​@@jennifers5560Yes, and there was the one right before she came out where her character's in the bedroom getting ready and everybody in the cast is sitting in her living room going "Ellen, will you just come out already!"

[@jennifers5560]

@@clancyalexander6192 lol!

[@TheSongwritingCat]

I would have watched the video anyway but I stayed hoping for more Bertie appearances

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

I find Ellen's story extremely fascinating in so many ways. Like how she was treated so poorly in her early days and even today she can't see how her behavior was inappropriate. One wonders if it has to do with the example that was set. It seems like a fair number of people her age are similarly blind to the worst of their actions. It's as if they think "I was better than the people before me, why don't you people appreciate that damnit!"

[@2002CasCas]

Just chiming in with Captain Holt's quote : "I would be betraying the very thing that I work so hard for." (BR99 S4 Ep16) I personally think that Ellen did turn her back on the morals and became entitled, maybe she was afraid to lose everything, or maybe she just wanted to keep rising and didn't care what it would take.

[@Sarcasticron]

@@2002CasCas I see her as a Barbara Walters type - struggled in the past, then got successful asking many pertinent and smart questions, which was great; but over time started to forget what regular people are like, and lost the plot. When Walters asked Dolly Parton if her boobs were real, we could see that she was not as thoughtful and compassionate as she purported to be. I always think of that interview, when people talk about the Ellen/Mariah Carey incident. I can't trust someone who's done something like that. Money, fame, and power really can turn a decent person into a jerk, if they're not very careful.

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

@@Sarcasticron I think we all have moments like that when we put our foot in our mouth, but it's been my experience that a good number of boomers instead of admitting the mistake and owning up they double down and dig in defensively.

[@alysonknop8395]

I'm a gen xer, and so so I wasn't alive for some of what you talk about, but certainly alive and aware for a lot of it. I remember, for instance, as a child reading the long sexuality article our set of encyclopedia Britannica volumes and there was quite a section Ann sexual deviation. And homosexuality was the first category in that section. Luckily I had parents with several gay friends and had been taught by them that there was nothing abnormal, but even so, reading that article made me question whether being gay was really okay. So awful and so sad.

[@johnniethepoet]

I came out in 1981. I was 8-9 years old when the Stonewall Riots occurred. But the religion I grew up in forbade any kind of deviance. Especially homosexuality and Sapphic Love. It was a hard time. I lost friends due to the AIDS crisis and horrified at the response of our government to help our people. We are all Americans aren’t we? I cheered when Ellen came out. We all knew it, it was confirmed (I lived close to LA, rumor mill city). I watched her show and the first few years of her talk show. I grew tired of the format, just like I did with another super important Lesbian in the public eye, Rosie O’Donnell. I was so heartsick when I heard about her bad, bad behavior. But I’ve seen this happen before. People who make it to the big time and then turn into utter a-holes. Thanks for this breakdown. Very awesome. And good job Jessica. By the way I finally came out as a transman at 61. It is definitely an experience! (PS: say hi to Jamie and Shaaba for me from America).

[@MaryanneNZ]

We need to give people the space to be complicated. SO many women are traumatised adults, and gay women even more so. This makes being a boss really hard. We've had centuries of pretty terrible men getting a pass for a range of bad behaviours, REALLY bad, but they've also brought us music, art, technological advances. It is not simple, it is complex and there is no wrong or right. I think we need to give our "new" celebs be imperfect. Not to let them do whtever they want, but cancelling people all the time because of their bad stuff is playing into the patriarchy even more.

[@coolchameleon21]

exactly

[@tiarezavaleta8850]

I was looking for this comment. Bravo 👏🏻

[@CrazyKungfuGirl]

It's not about what Bush believes, Ellen, it's about what he DID.

[@christopherb501]

Like, for example proposing _Amendments_ restricting marriage rights to m/f. Or worse at this point, empowering anti-queer voices. Like, oh I don't know...Justice -Alito- Abomination.

[@DawnBurn]

Louder for Ellen & the people in the Back.

[@MichaelJosephRojas]

Born in 80 here, I had to move out of my family's house as a teenager when I came out in the late 90s. Back then, if you came out, you knew you were burning it all down and starting on your own. Nobody would have to do with you, or that was my setup, go back in the closet or move in with your boyfriend. I dropped out of college. Ellen was important because her persona was very disarming. She was 'normal.' And she came out. I'm a way bigger Rosie O'Donnell fan, I taped her show every day back then, but Ellen came out. The 3 media influences I would place above that for me as an impact were a Madonna flier that came in the mail when I was around 8-10 detailing what AIDS was and how it worked (previous to which I thought little boys that played with dolls all eventually got sick and died of whatever AIDS was- seriously, I thought this as a child, I'd known 2 gay adults and they had died of AIDS), the Roseanne episode where she and Mariel Hemingway kiss, that was the first time in my life I heard anyone, real or imagined (a character), speak of homosexuality in anything approaching a neutral context instead of saying slurs with disdain, and the third was Rupaul in general. Rupaul would do late night talk shows, and was definitely pushing an envelope while also being skillfully poised, it took that first neutral context from that Roseanne episode I experienced and brought it into the real world, now I was hearing even homophobic members of my family have something nice to say about at least this gay person, even male members of my family would comment how fabulous Ru looked, even though they weren't 'like that', and seeing a gay person that bold be admired was inspiring. I wouldn't count those as untarnished sources of illumination, lots of messy controversies all around later, Roseanne especially, (Madge has a permanent free pass for everything from me, srynotsry) but those were the moments and impressions I remember most as a teen in the 90s. I'm Puerto Rican, so Wilson Cruz on 'My So-Called Life' was an impact on me in the abstract, but I did not have cable back then, and that distant knowledge was no match for the Catholic Latin community's alienation level toward me. I at least knew I wasn't the only gay Puerto Rican. I cried hard to that Roseanne episode. I was terrified someone would walk into the living room and ask why I was reacting like that. It would be years after that before I could admit to myself I was gay. But that was the first moment I let myself think "Maybe there's nothing wrong with being gay." All my steps followed that step. Shout out to KD Lang and Melissa Etheridge. They were not glamorous. But they were the absolute real deal. Ellen was more mainstream, and had an opportunity to make a different impact, and she did. Even though it might cost her. I know what it is like to decide your integrity is worth more than financial security when choosing to exhibit it guarantees universal derision. And that is why I know better than to judge Ellen Degeneres. I didn't come out because Ellen came out. But I will always be glad for having had the cold comfort of some company.

[@jennifers5560]

Wilson Cruz is so underrated!!

[@Sarcasticron]

I'm old enough to remember that time, and appreciate learning how other people experienced it. Isn't it nice that it feels strange now, to think about how Ellen's coming out was such a big deal at the time? Also KD Lang and Melissa Etheridge. Such a big freaking deal back then, and now acting so shocked would be laughed at. We've come so far, and we mustn't forget this, even though there's still a long way to go. Thanks for telling your story!

[@codymitchell6302]

This is something so little but I appreciate so much. Your captions are amazing. I feel like I never get the nuances of what is being said, but yours are genuinely so good. It alone makes me so much more engaged, but of course your content is just as amazing!

[@moonkenzie]

I'm an elder millennial so I saw it live. Everybody was gabbing about Ellen when she came out in Time, most of it negative. I remember watching "The Puppy Episode" with my mom (we loved the show) and just kind of shrugging. We had anticipated it after the article and interviews. It didn't bother us at all. I guess I modeled my coming out after Ellen's unconsciously. I just stopped dating men and never said a word for years.

[@jennifers5560]

I remember seeing her on the cover of Time at the grocery store. I just couldn’t get myself to pick it up and buy it. I was terrified of being found out. Luckily my Dentist had it in his waiting room so I got to read it. I came out a year later.

[@jillsarah7356]

I am an elder millennial and I have been increasingly frustrated with the blatant ageism I have seen amongst some younger people. I’m so glad you touched on the importance of representation for elder lgbtq+ people as well as young people. It’s important for both the queer community AND older people. Thank you!!

[@lisahurst4208]

Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode showing a lesbian kiss was more impactful to my Gen X brain but yes, Ellen had an impact.

[@bella-bond]

Omg I didn’t know about that! Star Trek has had so many huge progressive moments, I love it more and more

[@KariIzumi1]

​@@bella-bondin case you're curious and own a Paramount Plus account, it's the season 4 episode "Rejoined"

[@SgtKaneGunlock]

imagine lots of queer and trans folk found themselves through Voyager and DS9

[@itsapplepai]

You are SO RIGHT FOR THIS, I had the same thought!

[@floreya67]

Ohh that kiss was huuge. Love Deep Space Nine.

[@madison51307]

I am not old enough to have watched her sitcom, but I remember watching her talk show almost every day after school for a few years when I was a kid. It was something that got women my mom’s age watching, discussing, and considering gay rights in a more positive light. I was devastated when I found out about her contributions to an uncomfortable work culture on her set. I never watched another episode after or clip on KZbin. And I hated how Nikkitutorials was reportedly treated as a fan of Ellen and a trans woman who was excited to talk openly with another queer woman about coming out. Ellen has an extensive legacy of increasing visibility for the community, but she should be held accountable for the issues that she caused and perpetrated. I think it’s also important to remember that women, poc, and queer people are held to a higher standard when it comes to tv as even though Ellen was required to make a public apology and eventually lost her show after the scandal, Jimmy Fallon, who was the subject of an expose on a disturbing workplace environment, never apologized publicly and still hosts his show to this day.

[@charadreamuur7229]

Hi I love your content so much, your content has changed me as a person, and helped me when I am having a bad pain day,because I am chronically ill as well,and you are a very lovely person!

[@jessicaoutofthecloset]

What a sweet message! Thank you so much, sending the most love your way. Thank you for being a part of our community ❤️

[@jerrihadding2534]

As a naive 19 year old, I married an extraordinarily good man in March 1969. In June 1969 the Stonewall Riots occurred. Within months after, I wandered out to my husband with a finger marking my place in the book “Lesbian Women” and announced with wonder “I’m a Lesbian!” To which my husband replied, NO joke or exaggeration, “That’s nice dear.” Both of us were clueless! And I am not Lesbian, I am bisexual as I discovered and understood in the following years.

[@the_aberration7398]

Jessica probably filmed this over the course of several different days, in several different outfits, because of her chronic illness. She could have chosen to simply split the video up into chunks. Like, part one is in this outfits, part two is in this outfit, etc. Or, like, the first half of the video is in this outfit, the second half is in that outfit. But sprinkling all of the different outfits throughout the whole video keeps it visually interesting, and I think that was a really good and clever idea. Bravo, Jessica!

[@sannalopperi-vihinen233]

She often plays several different characters during these videos and wears different outfits to make it easier to tell them apart.

[@jennifers5560]

New puppy!!!!! Oh I want to see a picture!!

[@jennifers5560]

Aahhhh he’s so cute!!

[@blaireshoe8738]

8:33 until 8:44ish for those who missed it like me! :D

[@Sophie_Cleverly]

My personal icon turned out to be extremely disappointing as well. From now on, I'm stanning Bertie!

[@Sophie_Cleverly]

(I feel like I should clarify that I'm talking about recent accusations against a famous author, not Jessie and Claud who are obvs icons themselves 😆)

[@jessicaoutofthecloset]

Bertie would never 😉 x

[@ouchpaw3518]

From what I’ve seen on the internet in interviews, she seems to cross the line from “host” to “bully” a little too quickly. That’s all I need to know to not feel comfortable seeing her on the internet.

[@rosiefay7283]

I agree. Not only that, but crossing that line is a bad thing, no matter how slowly or fast.

[@niencat]

Power and money usually have a bad influence on people. Most people become even more flawed than we all are, when life burdens them with both power and lots of money. And people who misuse their power should be madeto reflect on why they became a bully and must prove to those around them that they have realised they were in the wrong and are changed now. People change all the time and we all are flawed. None of us is perfect. Life becomes so much easier when you accept you are flawed too! You kearn to forgive yourself and accept your flaws and through that you might become a little more forgiving to another person. There are a lot of people i dont want to see in tv or in a movie, and sooooooo many more i dont want to see on the internet nor on social media. Because these people present themselves as bullies or very superficial or both but they are still people. They have the right to exist and wrestle with their ego and experiences through life, just like me. And i can click away those on the internet i dont want to see.

[@coolchameleon21]

@@niencati love this comment

[@evag-s5177]

As a preteen, my parents (who definitely knew I was queer and were trying to be quietly supportive) got me the DVDs to Ellen's sitcom. I loved it and I remember the puppy episode, and my parents educating me on how important it was at the time. I also remember the episode where she gets married, and it was definitely impactful to me at the time, as I hadn't seen that representation on TV before. Also, I remember laughing so hard I nearly cried when Ellen was on the roof with a twister mat in a chicken costume. She can be problematic, I can choose not to support her now, and I can still recognize the impact she had and still has.

[@MorganVsTheInternet]

Bertie is so cute! I know he's not the focus of the episode but he's too adorable!

[@jessicaoutofthecloset]

Right 🥹

[@PhoebeFayRuthLouise]

The seismic impact of Ellen’s coming out absolutely cannot be overstated! I am just a bit younger than Ellen, so I remember “the puppy episode” (which is totally worth watching, and I especially love the very end), the Times cover, and her coming out on the Oprah show! Ellen will always be a hero to me for the courage she showed then! For me, as someone who lived through it all, nothing she did later can erase the singular legacy of her bravery!

[@jennifers5560]

The very end with Melissa Etheridge and the toaster oven? It was soooo funny!

[@PhoebeFayRuthLouise]

@@jennifers5560Yes! I laughed so much at that!

[@donnaprisbrey1452]

Word.

[@DagmarDollmaier]

It was seismic (perfect word for it)! I get that everyone hates Ellen nowadays but she blew the doors open and for that I'll always be grateful to her.

[@PhoebeFayRuthLouise]

@@DagmarDollmaierI’m wondering now if there is a bit of a generational divide about this. My friends who are old enough to have lived through Ellen’s coming out see her much more favorably than my younger friends.

[@heartscapesreiki1496]

Yep, I definitely remember the Puppy Episode. My mom and I watched Ellen, and as a highschool senior, it was highly impactful for me to see it. As controvercial and problematic as some of hr actions became, I will always be grsteful to her and that episode.

[@elizaimogen6381]

Here is an older lesbian saying thank you for your delightful presence and wonderful analysis. I love your perspective. I well remember the entire Ellen coming out time. My girlfriend and I really looked forward to it and watching the show was a celebration. It was great fun and brought lightness around gayness, always a good thing!🌈🧚🏼💕

[@bella-bond]

I loved that you performed the whole Dakota Johnson-Ellen confrontation as a sketch rather than playing a clip. It is such an iconic pop-culture moment and it makes it better that so many of us know the lines 😂

[@Crause88fin]

One of the most powerful and liberating experiences I've had in the recent memory is the realisation - as you said - that if we "disagree", meaning we have different view points, on racism, gender equality or if everyone should be granted similar human rights, I am in no way obligated to be friends with those people. Or even be in the same space with them. I don't have to share hobbies with them. I don't have to do whatever I do on my free time with them. That's not how dialogue works. Dialogue is finding new view points and improving the communal space so that everyone can exist. When someone is of an opinion that no, those people should actually not exist, or at least I should be dominant over them and governing, with my say, how and when and where they can be, that is not a dialogue. That's them deciding to be on the wrong side of history, flat-out. And I don't have to tolerate that. I do not have to tolerate intolerance. Thank you for voicing that, again.

[@alysonknop8395]

I remember when she came out. There was so much backlash, and it seemed so few of us cheering her and the amazing thing she did. I actually haven't been paying much attention to the criticism of her, so I still admire her. But I will watch the rest of your video to learn more.

[@louwinters508]

People still call her Ellen degenerate. And think it's funny.

[@The.fantasybug]

My emotionally favourite "coming out" episodes are not really about gays coming out, but about bisexual girls dating a girl after first having dated a boy. The first was in "100" with Clarke and Lexa and second was "the Owl house" with Luz and Amity. Both times I was rooting for the girls to get together, but did not expect them to, because that just doesnt happen in tv shows, but then they suddenly did! The first time I was just overjoyed, Ibwasn't out as bi yet. The second I was almost crying, 'almost' because I was watching it with my kids, and I finally understood why representation is so important. I saw myself on screen.

[@Smeleln]

I love the way you structure your videos, they're so pleasant and tidy on top of being well researched and assembled

[@Andrew_Young]

I completely understand not wanting to be friends with bigots. I literally could not set my feelings aside and talk to my parents about transphobia when I was coming out and even now I have ended a friendship because of transphobia. I definitely agree with you and your source that it's pretty fu*ked up for it to be considered more rude to call out racism than it is to be racist, but I don't think it follows that you shouldn't have friends with bigoted beliefs. I think being a patient advocate against bigotry with problematic friends is a particularly difficult and effective way of fighting bigotry. If people can change their views because of parasocial relationships how much more effective would real relationships be? I've seen this impact in my own life. Just a few months ago I convinced my conservative friend that drag queen story time is fine. At least one of my parents had a really hard time with my transition and their friends soothing their concerns I'm sure made my transition less horrible. Don't get me wrong, it was very difficult, but it was made less difficult because my parents friends fought for trans rights. If they didn't do that I would have either had to do that emotional work myself or literally lose my family. So, I don't just think having friendships with bigots is morally okay and shouldn't be criticizes I think it is morally good and should be praised.

[@betsyw4943]

"If people can change their beliefs because of parasocial relationships then how much more effective would real relationships be?" Yes, great way to put it! Of course I also agree with you that no one should ever feel pressured to be friends with someone with bigoted thoughts/ actions (or someone who might be dangerous / abusive to them).

[@clouduponthemoon530]

I was a kid when Ellen came out. My family was excited to see what would happen. But the show was less exciting after that. I don't know if that was because we only watched because of the media hype or because the writing changed? I never watched her talk show. I do remember how people reacted to her downfall, though. So many people I know used it as proof of why gay people are unacceptable-- like the end was inevitable. Thank goodness more gay people are now visible so that there are more options for examples of living a good and wholesome life.

[@KariIzumi1]

From what people who watched have told me, the show was extremely mid at best and probably would've been forgotten if she didn't come out on it.

[@speljufcharlotte8999]

Not a person but a show that deserves attention for it's representation and educational value is: The Fosters. It is about two lesbian woman caring for foster, adopted and biological children. The story is very moving, the importance of family is at the core of all of it, the characters are flawed and struggling but always come back to their love for one another. There are trans characters, different etnicities and a very homophobic father who is condemed for his actions but always also honored as a person. It's just beautiful. I cried so much watching it. Also, fame can change people. So maybe Ellen genuinly was a better person at the time when she came out as during the time of those bullying actions. We can love her for who she was And hold her accountable for how she is acting now.

[@ArtichokeHunter]

It's interesting that coming out in the early '00s, I was certainly aware of Ellen but never watched any of it, nor any of the L Word. Instead I watched A Shot of Love with Tila Tequila (couldn't make it through a whole season) and a variety of lesbian movies, mostly sad ones but also But I'm a Cheerleader and Imagine Me & You. I thought I knew about what she's done, but the fact that she outed the same (multiracial) woman's pregnancy against her wishes twice is WILD. She's certainly not the only queer person (cough Perez Hilton cough) to demonstrate that living in a world where you have to fear being exposed for personal aspects of yourself against your will doesn't mean people don't them turn around and use that power against other people. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect queer people to do better.

[@reminded]

I’m 33, bisexual, and nonbinary. Sometimes I marvel at how far we’ve come. It breaks my heart to hear younger queer people doubt they’ll make it to their mid-30s, but it also makes me determined to stick around long enough to be that older queer in people’s lives.

[@Rognik]

It amuses me how you pronounce DeGeneres. I imagine it's similar to how we Americans say Rowling's name. (Sorry to mention She Who Should Not Be Named, but I couldn't think of a similar family name.)

[@rebeccataylor6885]

I would assume that's Jessica's deafness rather than her Britishness

[@ajmilagros]

At first I thought that she was doing it on purpose as a dig, but then she continued and I wondered if she had never actually heard it pronounced before and that’s why she was saying it that way/

[@akumayoxiruma]

I used to watch her show regularly a decade ago, and even after the infamous interview with Nikkie Tutorials was published, I watched the show a few more times. In my opinion, her mistreatment of people behind the scenes and the problematic work conditions definitely can be called out. However, I don't think she ever deserved to be 'cancelled' or vilified considering how much positivity and contribution she brought to society and LGBTQ people in particular (not everyone obviously). All the donations and highlightings of people in need on her show has proven that she did a lot of good things.

[@Lazy_Fish_Keeper]

Exactly! Nobody I know walks on water. People are messy, imperfect, works in progress. We can be very 2 dimensional, and only focus on one aspect of an individual, or .... We can celebrate the positive contributions while also addressing the areas with room for growth and reparations.

[@MykaGhostt]

"We've come a long way in 27 years" I'm currently 28, turning 29 this year. This is wild As a side note: I love all your outfits! So adorable ❤

[@lindsayosterhoff2459]

I was 14 when Ellen's coming out episode aired. It was the same year I came out and dated a lovely girl openly for the first time (who I'm still friends with to this day). I didn't just watch the episode when it aired. I recorded it on VHS. It was so important to me because I felt seen. The criticisms of Ellen are valid and should be talked about but she will also still have a special place in some of our hearts because of how her visibility and openness about being LGBT affected us. She's a complicated figure but I think it's a good thing to talk about the positive things she's done while still addressing the rest.

[@Mollygregson]

I know you’re a buffy fan and have talked about it in passing but I would love a video on the importance and influence of queer characters in mainstream teen shows in the 90s, specifically I’m thinking dawsons creek and buffy but I know there’s others too

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Was a closeted teen gay in the 90s Ellen coming out was a beacon of hope for the young boy I was living in a highly conservative, 300-person town in rural Utah. It still took till my early 20s to come out. But her coming out was a big part of helping me stop hating myself Doesn’t excuse other behavior later of course. We all have our good and bad aspects. And it seems as time has gone on, her worse aspects are becoming a bigger part of her character

[@jacem3829]

I don't usually post comments but feel the need to, I guess. I am ten years younger than Ellen. I had fairly recently come out to myself and a few others when The Puppy Episode was broadcast. I remember going to a watch party at a queer bar with the local news in attendance. It was a big deal and gave me more courage to continue to come out to family members (very religious). Do I like finding out that she is human (and maybe not as good as I hoped)? No. Do I absolutely honor her for paving the way for my life being a bit better and being more accepted? Yes. Thank you for a wonderful analysis that is both informative and entertaining!

[@e.scottdaugherty8291]

Adorable puppy by the way. 67, born in Detroit. I've a bit of a different story {as we all}. Suffered thru the path to here, with interesting did that happen? "back in `da day" to be shared at another time, Ellen's accomplishments were ground breaking, her voice/endorsement/attention to setting "something out there", Out-freakin-standing. If it hadn't been for that thing that also came out a coupla years ago bout her character {and I'll leave it at that}. Jessica, you brighten my day, if your out & about, and it crosses your mind? Could ya read somethin' {menu, advert, no vlog thing}. Love the sound of your voice. Be well.

[@CherylynneCrowther]

The sitcom was entertaining and, yes, the microphone was a funny moment. "Yep, I'm gay" was famous and impactful. And then Dory was amazing. She was perfectly cast. Still love that movie. When her talk show started, it was fun because she was an underdog (her campaign to get George Clooney on the show was great television). But the meanness started early when she would have someone sneak up on a guest and scare them. Then her games started. Those were about putting people in anxiety-inducing situations to make fun of their fears. Learning the behind-the-scenes was bad wasn't a surprise. Wether she always had a mean-spirit but covered it with her humor or it was a result of the incredible bias that cost her years of work, who knows. Taken as a whole, what she's done on TV is both great and lousy.

[@dovestone_]

I have to say, having been a young child in the early 00s, the cultural impact of Finding Nemo and specifically the character of Dory CANNOT be overstated

[@joleneonyoutube]

thanks for commenting this - wondering if you could elaborate? i was a young child in the 00s, and im queer, knew i was queer then, but i feel like i missed a memo on what the impact of this film was. i liked it, but am confused at why/how dory was such a big deal 😭😭 but always been afraid to ask 😂😂

[@carligaughf]

Thank you for this video! I am 41 and I remember when she came out. It was ground breaking. It doesn’t mean that we should excuse her current behavior but I think young people need to know her history.

[@floreya67]

Jessica, I love these deep dives! They're my binge content atm as I'm having a hard fibromyalgia day. Thank you for being awesome and making content where I can see parts of myself represented 💚

[@betsymcc61]

Also having a bad fibromyalgia day and grateful for the videos.

[@stellangios]

That clap reminded me -- you should do a video on the woman who wrote the Friends theme song! I heard there's a documentary about her life being worked on. I think it might be interesting for your channel

[@jonathan9798]

Or perhaps something that is not from the us/ English speaking culture

[@nightwolfMKT]

The thing about the general lack of gay older people is an interesting point, I can think of a few household names in the UK (Stephen Fry, Sandi Toksvig, Ian McKellen) but in terms of Americans, not much immediately comes to mind besides Ellen. I'm sure there must be some though.

[@jennifers5560]

Here are some: Melissa Etheridge (63), Billie Jean King (80), Lily Tomlin (84), Rosie O’Donnell (62), Angela Davis (80), John Waters (78), Wanda Sykes (60), Jodie Foster (61), Nathan Lane (68)

[@alice0601]

I remember when it happened, and tbh never cared about Ellen. A more impactful representation for me growing up actually was Carol and Susan on Friends. Friends was problematic about LGBTQ+ jokes, but I agree that they never implied these two would be unfit to raise Ben. Also! Your new puppy is adorable! Welcome to the family!

[@mighty_polar_bear3786]

Thank you. Being an influencer can no doubt take a toll…. But it has genuinely given me a lot of hope. I am a teen and you may just be the ONLY happy adult queer individual I’ve seen. Thank you also for supplying the internet with the proper terms to talk. I just feel so positively I fluencies when watching your videos. So refreshing.

[@starfish8D]

I do remember that Times cover when Ellen came out. I was just a little kid then but remembering thinking that she was brave for making such a bold move. I would say that as far as television goes, Will & Grace was the most influential show that taught me important lessons that dispelled the stereotypical ideas that society had about gay people.

[@ShaunLaDue]

Great video Jessica....for me the even more important queer episode in mainstream tv was aired 5 years before Ellen's "The Puppy" Episode...Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 5 EP 17 "The Outcast" - it touched on many difficult issues - conversion, non binary and being queer. Maybe you could, if you like Sci Fi or Star Trek - look at the different ways queerness was explored, portrayed and viewed in the Star Trek Universe.....Thanks for all you do!

[@itstwenty20]

Jessica, this video is fantastic. The Puppy Episode was a HUGE deal when I was a young, still closeted lesbian. Ellen coming out publicly was huge; we didn't have that many icons at the time. Melissa Etheridge (who is also flawed and also an icon) had just been out a few years at that point (and was a guest star on the episode in question). All this said, yes, she's a problematic celeb now, and I agree: a terrible boss. Thank you for putting her in context, though, and showing how things have changed so much in the almost 30 years since the episode! When this topic comes up, I'll be referring people to this video for a contextual understanding.

[@marinathemermaid8075]

This makes me think of a book called Sing you home by Jodi Picoult. I grew up in a pretty homophobic place and it had very little representation, felt completely isolated - this book gave me hope and show me it's all normal what i feel. And the main characters are talking about Ellen's coming out due to one of them going through understanding and accepting herself and coming out in public about it.

[@Lazy_Fish_Keeper]

Jodi Picoult is an undervalued author! T. Kingfisher is another one.

[@marinathemermaid8075]

@@Lazy_Fish_Keeper Yes, she is. And thank you for recommendation, I'm not familiar with T. Kingfisher, but I will look it up

[@hambone.fakenamington]

I’m a minute in and there have already been, like, 4 different outfits, all beautiful. The production value of this video feels polished af, thank you for working so hard to make your content so good, especially when life can make it so much harder to create what you want. I know it’s really appreciated by us.

[@donnaprisbrey1452]

I'm in my 50s and Ellen's coming out rocked my world. She wasn't the only person influencing lesbian rights. She was significant. Talking about her show gave me a way of talking about this still heavily taboo topic. And seeing her rocked my internal world.

[@quinn0517]

Not only did I see the episode but I vividly remember my dad saying something awful about it and my mom telling him to shut the hell up. (My dad has come a long way, if nothing else) My living room probably was one of many that scenario played out in. I learned a lot in that moment and I havent thought about it in ages. Im really glad you made this vid. (Im grateful for all your work. You're an absolute treasure.)

[@commonstray1737]

Thank you for the deep dive! Gay media was very important in my household growing up. It wasn't until 2016 that my parents (who are lesbians) were able to legally marry. Despite the fact they have been together since 1993 (and still going strong). Your channel helps illuminate complicated elements which have shaped modern ideologies, and I thank you for that. Please keep it up!

[@kikidevine694]

Honestly, I don't understand why we have this expectation of perfection. People are inherently (and inevitably) flawed. And it's great.

[@jillsarah7356]

This! Life holds so much nuance and the way that some online discourse can flatten it is so sad and frankly boring. Nuance, which this video has, is what makes life interesting

[@christopherb501]

In a practical sense, it's the same thing as women and racial minorities when rights aren't secured; if someone becomes a sh!t, then people seeking oppression will latch onto them as an object lesson as to "why they shouldn't have rights", and there always always ALWAYS just enough idiots to buy it. That, and there's the larger tide of societal scrutiny towards people outside the "default", and many ordinary people get swept up in it even if they know better.

[@an6516]

Ellen is more than imperfect. She’s an ass hole.

[@Rileypedia]

Ellen was one of my mom's favorite shows. I was born in 84, and I remember her watching it every week. I remember the puppy episode vaguely, I remember my mother's reaction being harsh, even kind of disgusted at first. But I have always been famous in my family for asking 'why'? I knew I was attracted to other girls, but I had no idea what it really meant yet. But it opened a dialog with my mother and I that I remember so carefully walking the line of pushing but not too far, testing the waters with little questions like 'yeah but why is that bad?' or 'why shouldn't they be able to get married' and by the time I was in my teens the hypothetical 'yeah but what if I fall in love with someone who happens to be a girl?' lol. Anyway, money and fame do stupid things to people and Ellen is still a boomer, lol. But I personally think that the whole cancel culture is ridiculous and it sets everyone up to fail. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. We learn and we grow and we figure shit out. No one should look up to or idolize another human being to the point that for them to be *human* and therefore *flawed* in some way, is suddenly grounds to cancel, bully and threaten. And I'm still skeptical enough of the vast majority of the internet that I don't even know if I belive that some of the accounts are factual. The whole don't say hello to her first and don't look her in the eye - that's literally what Hagrid tells the third year students in CoMC about Buckbeak. Like, idk, stuff online has to be taken with a grain of salt. Did she cross the line with her guests? Yes, I can see that. I think I always figured a lot of the awkward moments were scripted but I think that maybe what she intended as a joke (the birthday thing for instance) then just kind of went awry. Maybe she wasn't expecting Mariah to be pregnant, she was told by someone back stage and maybe she was just like yeah okay. Like, she's an aquarius and ya know, aquarians aren't great at reading the room in that regard. The whole 'I didn't mean it that way you just took it wrong' is kind of the vibe lol. They're aloof and while they want to be involved in everything, they want to be extroverted, they just don't have a lot of tact but it's usually because they assume that they know what everyone else is thinking yet usually are wrong. Lolol. So idk. I think that canceling people should be reserved for, ya know, people who actually do horrible things like traffick young girls into sex trades, or talk about grabbing a woman's genitals as a power move, or actually murder someone, or come up with elaborate stories to fake being a victim when they are the abuser. Not humans who are literal humans who yell at the people who work for them or don't know where a boundary is on asking questions, or saying something stupid in a song because they want a reaction to it. We have a tendency to want to put celebrities on these pedestals but that isn't really fair to the celebrities? Don't get me wrong - actual shitty people don't deserve to continue to make money off of the masses or make excuses for their behavior because of their fame.... But I just wish that people would be more realistic about their expectations. And remember that those people are still people. And they still have feelings and brains and hearts and spirits that are, in turn, affected and sometimes deeply, by the crap that people think it's okay to say behind a screen. If you don't want to watch her show, don't watch it. If you don't want to give lizzo money, then don't buy or stream her stuff and don't go to her shows. But the social media ganging up on celebrities isn't any better than doing that to someone in real life. Sending death threats or even saying 'I hope you die' or any of the other crap that gets said in these situations.... Like, that's certainly not constructive, it doesn't help validate whatever the intention is, but more importantly - it's going to make the target either get defensive and angry, or feel like shit about themselves which can build resentment instead of understanding and once empathy is gone, what else is there? It's sad sometimes because it feels like especially in the past 10 years, everyone is expected to know 100% of everything, be mentally aware and stable enough to react/behave in a textbook 'good people' way, and be hypersensitive and hyperaware of anything and everything that might end up bothering, triggering or otherwise affecting people who we don't even know..... Yet all of the internet cancel culture people aren't being sensitive at all to the bigger picture, to the humanity of the target, or to the fact that all any of this has done has further segregated, separated and partitioned the world into some sort of hard coded label system. All we're doing is ensuring that we aren't faced with things that might expand our thought processes, because we are only interacting with others who think the same as we do. Then we try to rally masses behind the 'cause' which kind of pushes these declarative opinions onto others (either you agree or you disagree, you're either the same as me or you're an enemy mentality). So now we have this faulty sense of validation, this group of people - and if even a tiny different perspective is presented, the dogs are let loose to either assimilate or exterminate any opposition. Like, cancel culture is worse most of the time than the people that are being canceled. And don't even get me started on appropriation. Like, somehow inclusivity has become incredibly exclusive. If you aren't like me, you can't sit here. Like the world has turned into a high school lunch room and while everyone is 'accepted' and everyone has a right to be in said lunch room, no one intermingles outside of their group's table. Idk, lol. Basically, ya know, we should all be kind to each other. Not complacent. And sure, definitely stand up for what you value. But maybe *be* friends with the racist, instead of sending them over to the racist table. Maybe Ellen's friendship with George W gave him something to think about, maybe it put him in a place where in the middle of the night as he's staring into his fridge, he can reflect on his own values. Maybe if you let the racist sit with you for a while, find what you *do* have in common, then through your experience together, they'll witness a moment, a conversation, anything that will make them think 'huh. Maybe people of color aren't all horrible.' Ya know, like Ellen did for the country as a whole. Because she literally let *everyone* sit at her table. Take from it what resonates, discard what doesn't feel genuine to yourself and then move on. That's the beauty of culture and community, and that's what it means to literally be kind to everyone. Even the people who hold opposing values. And maybe it's worth asking why. Why do you think abortion is bad? (example that happened with my 17 year old son's friend group) then it's like, okay. That's fair, I always believed that life starts at conception, too. But! But what would you do if your 9 year old sister was assaulted and resulted in pregnancy? Would you really expect a 9 year old, who hit puberty early, to carry this baby to term, then give said baby away? Like adults have trouble with rationalizing that.... Do you think that's even possible for a 9 year old?? The conversation was incredible and I helped 6 boys aged 17-20 all rethink their inherited belief that abortion should be illegal. I was open, I asked them questions that made them think, and I answered the questions that they had without contempt. And I *listened*. If I would have just told them all that women deserve bodily autonomy and that's that, then they would not have learned anything, and they would have all continued to follow their parents' rhetoric. Empathy. The world needs more empathy. Okay I'm done. If you read all of this, please have a cookie. What was meant to be a cute story about my childhood turned into a oh wow apparently I needed to get some stuff off my chest lolol. Anyway, I adore your videos. Thank you for existing and sharing your life and your thoughts with the world. :) have a great day. ❤

[@The-MagicKazoo]

Omg I love all the insightful pointers you made and how you backed them up with actual statistics we need more of that in modern media

[@caseycasas2498]

I remember being a teenager, hearing that the episode was coming out, and turning on my small old black & white tv that was in my bedroom to watch it. Trying to sneak to my bedroom to watch it with the volume as low as it could go but still be heard so my parents didn't hear...it was a huge step for the cultural conversation at the time.

[@jythoden3523]

I remember watching her as a kid when the puppy episode and she came out. It was life-changing for me. She may have turned into (or always been, deep down) a terrible person... but she was gay and she had a wife, which were all things i wanted as a kid but knew I couldn't have. I grew up with a severe disability and knew I needed legal marriage bc medical care was tied to that (and jobs). It was heartbreaking to grow up like that. To see her on mainstream tv was indescribable. I know it wasn't enough, but it was so important to my own development to see that. It's disappointing how she turned out, but I've learned to put no one on a pedastal or stan anyone I don't personally know.

[@annesphantasia]

Thank you for promoting this Both And perspective! I'll admit that at one point I did a hard pivot and became a "hater" for awhile because I knew some people who had worked for her and... well, it's hard when you realize the performance and the person are so different. But v glad I grew to this more complex view because it's more true.

[@AliciaMajo]

I grew up in a very catholic family, went to Catholic school and realizing you're not straight in an environment where showing your shoulders is controversial or forbidden is really hard. I clung hard to people like Ellen DeGeneres and Ian McKellen when I was a teenager and trying to figure out if I was bi, or just "doing it for attention" as a lot of my classmates claimed. I was deeply depressed and anxious, and definitely didn't think I'd make it to 35, I didn't even think I'd make it to adulthood. And I almost didn't a number of times. When I was sure I wasn't straight my aunt and her family were marching against gay marriage. But I did make it into adulthood, I'm 25 and Pansexual, I've had a partner for almost 8 years now. I came out to my parents and siblings who accept and love me! (even if my mom still has some struggles with accepting my sexuality because of her upbringing.) I went to Pride dressed as Dr.Frankenfurter and a lovely Drag Queen invited my partner and I in the V.I.P section! So to all the young LGBTQIA+ people and eggs out there, you are valid, you are loved, and you absolutely can make it into adulthood and beyond, and you can be happy!

[@thequeerrunner5745]

When Ellen came out, I watched the coming out party and was thrilled. I was just coming out as a lesbian at that point, and I *needed* it. And seeing people like Graham Norton celebrating it was just... it was like nothing I'd ever experienced before or after. However, what she has become? I can't. So, oddly, I kind of split her into her back then and Ellen the talk show host (kind of). That's a bit of an oversimplification, but you get me.

[@amla2263]

I come from breadtube (and cornbread tube), where a deep dive is 1.5, even two hours or more. 😅 But this was a fun one, I'd love to see more of these! Well done Jessica! (And the outfits are fab, as always)

[@MidnightBreeze1234]

I am a bit young for most of what you talk about here so I will mindlessly consume more information in your gorgeous accent and file it in the random bit of my brain devoted to queer trivia. I feel like the closest I can get to understanding this is the impact the Percy Jackson universe had on my friend group after Trials of Apollo. It seriously made such difference, I was like you Jessie, I was the really obvious lesbian child in my family but there was such a shift in the understanding of people I hung around after reading the series to a point where certain people became civil to the point of talking to me again. Also thank you for your existence, I am currently going through the lesbian rite of passage of crushing on a homophobic straight girl (it’s the worst!!!) and you make me feel less alone in my sexuality, especially as a queer person who also has ADHD you really inspire me. Furthermore, very cute doggy! (Sorry for the paragraph, the autistic side of brain is in control.)

[@Amethystar]

I think this is what history is about: acknowledging the people(s) who inspired change and being honest about both the good and the bad that came of it. I once heard someone define the difference between like and love as "You'll cry at their funeral but you don't want to go on vacation with them." I feel like this can apply to some small degree regarding Ellen. We can acknowledge what she accomplished while still shaking our heads at her hypocrisies.

[@conlon4332]

I'm slightly distracted by the pronunciation of her surname, and it took me a moment to figure out what was wrong, but I think it's that the stress is usually on the first syllable, and Jessica puts it on the second. Please don't worry about it if you're reading this Jessica, but if you are, now you know.

[@henrywalsh]

As a fellow LGBTQ+ I just want to say that I adore your outfits!

[@emilybixler3166]

I do think the concept that you can't be "friends" with people with "opposing beliefs" (even ones that are about your humanity) is a bit overblown. It's an individual choice, and I don't think anyone should feel they have to. But it can make genuine positive change to do so, *especially* if the person in question is powerful as with Bush. I'm a woman, and I *sobbed* when Roe V Wade was overturned. I also have a "friend" who used to be opposed to abortion. But by remaining calm in a conversation with him about it and being careful about what points I made, I changed his mind. I also used to work in a military club as a bartender. I learned there you can make a lot of subtle, small changes to people's thinking by being friendly, kind, and willing to tackle even egregious ideas with logic. Some of these are people who've never actually interacted with a queer person, leftist, etc in a neutral or positive way. That goes *really* far to contribute to shifting someone's ideas. I'm not saying everyone should do it. It fucking hurts. But it's not a betrayal to the communities I'm a part of either.

[@AynenMakino]

I could be wrong here, so treat with however much salt you like, but I really get the sense that in our current state of minority-culture previous generations of minorities don't 'age well'. I'm from the 80s, and there's so much stuff I think differently about from how current minorities that I myself am part of think of it. And it's not at all a kind environment for that in my experience. I feel we kinda need a term for a generational 'backlog' of ideas. A way of saying "I'm the same minority as you but my starting point is different. Is that so inexcuseable?".

[@AynenMakino]

I think Yoda had the right of it: "We are what they grow beyond". And I do think generations after me should be able to do so, but do they have to hate me for it?

[@mehlover]

I like the message of appreciating someone visibility and representation of the LGBTQ+ community. While also still being able to look at them critically

[@meganharding5100]

I really love and appreciate that. Like you're fully transparent about the stuff. You talk about like you don't leave stuff out. You don't put a giant glamor curtain on it. You're not like oh? It all has to be bad or all has to be good. You're just like. Well, this is what it is some of it is bad some of it is good. Well, let's just be honest and honestly like it. It shouldn't be so hard to find transparent education channels, but for some reason it kind of. Like you got your channel. You got dark history, but like I can't think of any other channels that are super transparent like that.

[@sallyjordan4869]

A very interesting and well-balanced video essay on Ellen and her legacy. I remember well how thrilling it was when Ellen came out and how moving a speech she made after Matthew Shepard’s death, saying that hoping to prevent such appalling acts was one of the reasons she came out. I hate that she got so weird and mean later in life. Also, I love you so much, but I do wish sometimes that people your age wouldn’t imply that it’s astonishing that people of Ellen’s generation are still alive. I’m just a few years younger than she, and I hope I have a few good years left. 😂 🎀💖🎀

[@sallyjordan4869]

Ok, I admit I hadn’t watched until the very end when I made that cranky comment about age. I appreciate the acknowledgement that younger people need to see older queer people age. But I also think there are many older LGBT people around than younger people sometimes think. We’re here; we just get overlooked a lot.

[@NeurospicyKat]

I came out a year or two later than Ellen and the episodes were playing on daytime TV in Australia at the time ('99). It was very healing for me. My mum is gay and has been out for a couple of years but i still didn't want to be and had a whole bunch of internalised homophobia that. I'm saddened it's turned out she's not a nice ad she appeared to be, there was a bunch I was unaware of (thank you for presenting the info). I think it's ok to compartmentalise and know she's done some wonderfully brave things whilst not supporting who she's being now.

[@LilyFair]

Shoutout to the 1st gay marriage on Spanish-speaking TV - Maca and Esther (portrayed by Patricia Vico and Fátima Baeza). Not as iconic as Ellen, but it was a very mainstream show (Hospital Central - very E.R. inspired). Kudos to the producers, who rushed to marry the series' lesbian couple as soon as it became legal in 2005 :) And much love to the actresses, who remain vocal allies to this day.