Ellen Did Duolingo for One Whole Year and Her Italian Still Sucks | Show of the Weekend

Ellen got a 365 day streak on language-learning app Duolingo, but the gamification of it all may just get in the way of actually learning a language... Luke sits down with her on the purple sofa to hear all about it. Molto bene!
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Outside Xtra is a companion channel to Outside Xbox, covering the wider world of gaming with weekly list videos, Let's Plays and shows with your hosts Ellen and Luke. Look for regular appearances by OG Outside Xboxers Andy, Jane and Mike, and generally more of the videos you love, about more of the platforms you enjoy, from a team now two people larger overall.
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[@awmperry]

It's so nice that Barry Bamboo is lifting up smaller creators on his show. I think these Luke and Ellen people really could make it.

[@MrGenovation]

Love the new cast: Luke, Ellen, and Barry. Great addition, @outsidextra!

[@FutureJacket]

I was actually worried they were going to introduce some new random.

[@woodneel]

Our new beloved, Barry!

[@rodolfosantos9047]

Barry is already my favorite in all of Oxbox multiverse

[@digdude64]

Long live Barry! Long live Barry!

[@Banquet42]

Has Barry been there secretly off screen for a long time though? When did Barry really get here? Are Ellen and Luke secretly plants as well? Is producer John orchestrating this whole thing as some kind of Evil Plastic Gardener Overlord?

[@EngineerWhen]

I'm an Italian currently on his 32-day streak learning Russian, and I'm totally in agreement with Ellen here. Duolingo may be useful for learning new words, but it certainly doesn't give you the grammatical rules and phrase structure, and sometimes I get really confused. Plus, sometimes the phrases it gives you are quite strange, to be frank... That's why, as a rule of thumb, I generally integrate with the following: - study the phonemes first, so that I may pronounce things as correctly as I can; - pronounce things out loud even when Duolingo doesn't require it and think how to say stuff before looking at the words that it suggests; - during the day I try to think about how I would say some phrases in certain situations; - online grammar lessons on KZbin or other sites; - keep a notepad with all the main rules and some vocabulary. Will this work? I most definitely do not know, but it seems to be ok for now. But I already know the day will come when I will give the bird... the bird, and try a more serious approach.

[@cactustactics]

I think you're doing it right - like it's going to depend on the person, but generally kids learn best with pure immersion, but young adults and up need more structure, some idea of the explicit rules they need to learn, that kind of thing. So going to sites that explain the actual grammar is probably going to help a lot! So is writing stuff down (just generally that can help a lot of people remember things better). I'd try to find some stuff in Russian too (audio/video and written stuff like websites) that's not way above your level, so you get practice with the real language. Some news sites can be good for this! You can find ones that use fairly simple language, and they can talk about stuff you're already familiar with Duolingo's good for drilling those concepts once you know them - learning purely through exposure is ehhhh, maybe for some people it's effective, but most people need that structure. Also the hearts situation they've pushed on everyone really hurts that idea of immersing people until they click with what's happening, because you're punished for the mistakes that are part of that learning process! I think having all the words visible (rather than making you come up with an answer from nothing) harms language development too, it's like training wheels that you end up relying on, and you struggle in situations where you don't have them

[@Cerg1998]

I've got experience learning multiple languages academically (including English) and 3+ years of teaching English both in person and online, in groups and one on one. With all that I can say that Duolingo is useful, but only as a supplement to something else. It doesn't have to be a teacher-led class, but you definitely need to work with a textbook for grammar, at least to some degree; and with a person who speaks the language for speaking and writing. Without that Duolingo is borderline useless, while with it it can be somewhat fruitful. You shouldn't expect a significant boost to your skills just because you're using duo, though. Gamification adds a false sense of progress and may lead to overconfidence in people who have made no progress in the studying department of the thing that is gamified, unfortunately.

[@renann3]

Back when I was learning italian duolingo didn't have this streamlined structure, lessons were classified by subject and you could easily see this on the menu. It was great for coordinating with the grammar studies, as it provided alsosome exercises for it. Now, guarda che coincidenza, I'm studying russian and duolingo fucking sucks! The declension cases are far apart from each other and it's hard to find them in this mess of a menu. If you're just going on a trip to somewhere, it works great like this, but if you actually want to learn a new language, the order that the lessons are displayed will conflict with whateve program you have going on the grammar side

[@CantankerousDave]

I speak several languages, but I bounced off of Russian pretty hard. Between the extra cases like prepositional and locative, you also get to memorize perfective *and* imperfective verbs pairs. Fun! I love the sound of the language, but the grammar is a bear.

[@Cerg1998]

@@CantankerousDave I started with Russian as my native language so that made it a bit easier. If that any consolation, when learning English you have to memorise a whole lot of spellings the origins of which are very murky. "So basically the French scholars didn't like the way it looked, so they changed the spelling to fit their linguistic beauty standards" is a surprisingly frequent reason of quirky spellings. Although come to think of it, natives had to learn this mess it too.

[@Becktastic01]

I love how Producer Jon is now an absolutely integral part of things, its so nice to hear his voice off camera. He's like the DM or the Voice of Reason (sometimes).

[@gwishart]

It's so nice to see Luke and Ellen making a guest appearance on Barry's show.

[@joshuakirkham9593]

I keep forgetting that it is Barry's show.

[@CaitlinRC]

I've got a two year Spanish streak and the owl still gets angry at me for forgetting basic things ;-;

[@randomusernameforchris3392]

I heard a lot about that site/app over the years, and it seems the most recommended. Has it helped you the most?

[@kaushtubhchauhan]

I am 210 days in and I still just guess it for aprende,aprendo,aprender

[@Diree]

Because the owl never bothered to teach you any of the basics.

[@awmperry]

The owl is a git, but not as much as the other awful mascots. "Continue your streak. Or not. Whatever." Urgh.

[@awmperry]

​@@DireeAnd then they disabled the forums which were the only way of actually getting useful information about grammar and whatnot.

[@elohite00]

As a teacher, hearing Luke say "You can't beat a human teacher" makes me wonder if I'm human, as I have tasted defeat before.

[@rodo1252]

I like that your humanity comes into question before your profession

[@guyeshel9316]

Teaching is not the same for a every teacher and every student, different teachers fit different students. You have your way of delivery and it fit a specific type of people

[@simonwaffleman]

My daughter tested out of Spanish, Italian, & Chinese in college thanks to Duolingo; however, she supplemented it with talking with people that know the language. It's leaps and bounds better than what most of the schools in the US do. Her teachers even highly encourage the use of Duolingo. Duolingo is part of a toolkit and can't be your only solution. The only true way to learn the language is to speak it with people regularly. You need to actually converse.

[@J624]

6:49 Duolingo doesn't call it out, but on the unit/section headers is a button for "Guidebook" that will explain those rules that Ellen said are missing. The Unit 6 Guidebook for Italian has the conjugation rules.

[@chakraUK]

The guidebooks used to have grammar rules and verb tables. Now Duolingo, in all their wisdom, have replaced these with simple lists about 6-8 phrases, with no explanation of the grammar. If you don't see this change yet, you will soon - it's been rolled out gradually to various users. It sucks.

[@weezercollector]

We went to Italy for our honeymoon, and while we learned the words for please, thank you, sorry, excuse me, very well and such, we also learned how to ask if the Italian person we were speaking to spoke English, and the majority of people were very happy to speak English and actually thanked us for asking them. 😁👌 Such a beautiful country and lovely people.

[@robstuart8474]

As a teacher, I feel incredibly validated by this entire episode. (Pity it's Maths as opposed to MFL.)

[@alameachan]

A good maths teacher can teach maths even to people with dyscalculia or little interest. They offer tools and tricks to circumnavigate everyday pitfalls in all kinds of situations, from shopping over large financial decisions to understanding why the statistics shown on TV are lying to you about an important topic. So you have every right to feel validated - mathematics are an exceedingly important skill!

[@2802Bene]

just like a bad teacher can destroy ones interest in any subject. so my honest thanks and respect to any good teachers out there!

[@Amaranthyne]

Actually, duolingo has an app for math that is much better than their language app. It was a great practice tool for a kid I was tutoring.

[@LiopleurodonFerox]

I do teach languages and felt all the didactic/language acquisition theory from uni creep into my brain and make me shudder when Ellen described duolingo's teaching methods

[@CantankerousDave]

@@LiopleurodonFeroxYou could go the traditional Latin route, involving threat of death for writing the misconjugated “Romanes eunt domus”. (In college, my Japanese professor and German professor once sat down next to me while I was eating lunch in the student union and made me translate from one to the other. They liked to push me.)

[@mattkuhn6634]

I think you're spot on about the problems with Duolingo, Ellen! As a linguist, whenever someone has asked me how to learn a new language, or whether Duolingo is any good, I always say that it's great at being supplemental, but not at being the primary engagement with a language you get. Duolingo is good at one thing: getting you to engage with your target language every day, and while that is a great thing, it's also not the only thing you need to learn a new language. However, that is literally Duolingo's ENTIRE goal, and their sole didactic aim is to keep you coming back. That means that if they have a choice between something that will make you learn the language more effectively but is boring and will cause people to stop using the app, and something that doesn't really teach you much but will ensure you come back tomorrow, they will pick the latter. This isn't entirely without merit - they are relying on studies that show that the #1 predictor of success for language learners is practicing daily. In my opinion, though, daily practice is a proxy for the actual thing that increases your likelihood of success, and that is self-motivation. Anyway it sounds like Ellen has fallen afoul of one of Duolingo's biggest problems: it has an almost pathological fear of actually teaching you anything. For instance, it sounds like she's unaware that every unit of every language has a Guidebook associated with it, which is like a chunk out of a textbook, teaching you concepts and giving you examples. With a recent app update they made it much more prominent, but they still don't ever really TELL you about it. You can see it at 9:55 - it's that banner that says "Section 2: Explorer". It looks a bit different from that now, but that notebook icon on the right? If you tap that, it gives you an admittedly brief lesson. It will actually TEACH you in there, like giving you the conjugation tables for verbs, or explain quixotic things like which verbs are reflexive. It is easily the worst thing about Duolingo that they don't teach you more, so it's ridiculous that this vital feature is so easy to miss.

[@Iversen83]

My Japanese streak is now 1366 days and I'd say I speak basic Japanese. However, I also get actual lessons and study outwith Duolingo. No chance I'd be saying that if it was just the app.

[@SatyreIkon]

Funny thing is that Duolingo EXPLICITLY STATES that just using the app is not enough and even offers additional resources on learning languages through their blog posts. I'm not surprised that people who ignore that and only use the app never get good in a language. I am at 685 days of Italian in Duolingo, but I also write stuff down, do vocabulary cards, read Italian news and watch shows on Netflix (Rick and Morty is GREAT in Italian 😂). I'm not FLUENT, but I can understand and write a lot. Speaking's lacking though.

[@Jambobist]

Yeah you need to do more than just use Duolingo to learn a language, Duolingo really just teaches you to be good at Duolingo. It's fine as a supplemental tool but if that's all you're doing you'll not make much progress.

[@jacopopiovesan3882]

@@SatyreIkon yes, we italians are blessed with a lot of fantastic dubbers!

[@SatyreIkon]

@@jacopopiovesan3882 For real! I'm from Germany, so I'm somewhat spoiled when it comes to quality dubbing (I even worked in video game localization and did dubs myself for a few years, so I got to meet some real artists in that field), but the Italian dubs I heard so far are EASILY on the same level.

[@alexgaggio2957]

​@@SatyreIkonooo! I'll check out Rick and Morty in Italian. I've just been watching Bluey in Italian because it's simple 😅

[@nina9565]

As someone whose first language is a romance one (italian, spanish, french etc), learning english from romance seems significantly easier than romance from english. Specially when it comes to the gender of words, since every noun has a gender in romance languages.

[@christophersmith8316]

English dropped almost all of the masculine / feminine endings and cases for verbs and the like. Balancing that is a lot of irregular rules and about a zillion vocabulary words in general use. So coming from romance to English you might trip over having so many different ways to say the same thing that are not 100 percent equivalent.

[@jamesenter2095]

This is the real gaming journalism I want

[@rebeccaweems3921]

When I was taking Spanish in high school and my teacher told us to DuoLingo to refresh our brains in between classes, but she said it wasn’t a substitute for a teacher. So Ellen’s comment about how it could work with a teacher is helpful.

[@bootler3]

I've been doing Arabic for over 4 years now in Duolingo (including some patches where i was just repeating the same stuff), in fact i just finished the course. I would definitely agree that it doesn't do grammar well, tenses, genders etc. All remain a mystery. I think it really demonstrates the weakness of gamifying things which is that it makes you really good at playing the game not the thing itself. At this point im very good at Duolingo and not particularly good at Arabic

[@Thrungey]

I roared with laughter at the end, "the owl can F**k off" :)

[@lauramarschmallow2922]

I like the plant. It really ties the room together. My family has a plant, that is nearly 20 years old monstera - I cannot remember where we got it from- which I named "Chuck", like the plant from ManiacMansion. In it's hayday Chuck was nearly three meters tall, but last winter my mom gave it a new hibernation spot where it nearly died and lot most of it's leaves and a bunch of it's stems/air-roots. But it recovered miraculously, now a lot smaller, but none the less!

[@mechanicalpants]

I liked this story, thanyou for sharing👍! It's so cool you named it and that it has been part of the family so long. Plants have amazing recovery powers indeed. I have a couple indoor plants that came back miraculously from nothing and now they totally brighten up the room!

[@jimmcdowell5131]

Barry is my favorite cast member. They need more screen time!

[@TheLeDiz]

Okay, I'm normally just a lurker, I don't comment on ANYTHING, but that last line, Ellen, absolutely broke me. I am still giggling. And more generally, I have to say I love these kind of videos. I always think of Outside Xtra as 'adult gamer culture' and this was a key example. Love it and thank you

[@joeycorcoran5222]

Lurkers of the world, unite

[@trankia1224]

And next weekend they'll be doing a Pokemon magazine!

[@TheSpitzy24]

As someone who only got a month into Italian before running out of patience, I applaud you on your one year Ellen! Keep going!

[@bilbo_t_baggins2762]

If Ellen did go to Italy, it wouldn't surprise me if the taxi driver at the airport turned round and said "ciao-Ellen Rose? Mi piace outside xtra."

[@regoryx7242]

Oh man Barry is so chill and cool. Great addition to the team!

[@lealjader]

I've been learning Norwegian for almost 4 years with duolingo, it was much better before because there were actual written lessons explaining the grammar and comments where people would answer questions about the language, the Norwegian course is still good though, the courses vary in quality immensely. Og nå kan jeg snakke norsk, ikke mye, men jeg er fornøyd med det.

[@robertoazuaje9279]

Wait, they removed the rule explanations and stuff? Huh

[@Deinareia]

@@robertoazuaje9279 Yes. Yes they did. It sucks.

[@GriffinWolf]

@@Deinareia I'm doing Spanish, I can still access the explanations and rules??

[@Deinareia]

@@GriffinWolf I'm doing Spanish too. You can still see the forums where actuall people and native speakers would post the explanations? How? I want to still see them too.

[@GriffinWolf]

@@Deinareia This thread is about the explanations, not the forums. I wish the forum would come back, but the "guidebook" with grammar explanations is definitely still there.

[@Lazy_Mammal]

I'll definitely miss Barry the Bamboo if he's gone. I'm already attached!

[@sebastianwlodarczyk]

I'm almost at a year streak of German and English, and yeah- even though Duolingo has some short explanations for each chapter, it really helps to learn at least basic grammar somewhere else. It works quite well as a tool to re-learn a language you've been taught in school, and a reminder to use it at least a little bit each day (that can make quite a difference)- but I think that treating Duolingo like a game kinda works against it:) Either way, congratulations for sticking with it for a year (or "putting up with it"- whichever fits better)!

[@digdude64]

I got a minor in German over 10 years ago. I rarely used it after. This episode inspired me to download Duolingo to refresh myself. It's been fun adding to my vocabulary and stuff but I can't imagine starting from scratch.

[@sebastianwlodarczyk]

​@@digdude64 Yeah, I had German lessons in school for years, but aside from two lessons per week never really used it. Decade later I was surprised how much I can actually remember after a bit of a refresher:) Starting a course about Ukrainian last month was a different experience- lessons about the alphabet are nicely done, but notes in Duolingo's "guidebook" are just a few translated conversations with no explanation of constructing sentences or declination. I imagine anyone to whom English is a native language would have a rough time with that course

[@k-sherry]

Duo Lingo is ok for engaging with a language at a basic level, classes are good for learning fundamentals of a language, but I think they all lack the immersion of actually engaging in a language. Having friends you can practice with, going to the places that speak the language, or going to things like cultural exchanges are all great ways to progress

[@chrisjsewell]

Dualingo is great, as part of a balanced diet. As a beginner, you’re not going to learn words by just „immersing“, this is just good old fashioned repetitive learning. Then, once you have the basics down, you also need to compliment it with conversations, watching tv shows etc

[@Realunmaker]

Duolingo helped me greatly learning Hangul (the Korean writing system) but everything Ellen said I agree and I went for a classic grammar book with accompanying CD next. I might end up trying a teacher eventually, the goal is to travel to Korea and stumble with words a lot there. That’s how I got better in English, Japanese and French: by eventually embarrassing myself a lot, testing the patience of people and just trying to talk said language.

[@sebastianwlodarczyk]

That sounds like a great goal, hope you'll make it a reality! I can't get past the "embarrassing myself" part, and still actively avoiding voice chats:D

[@brady376YT]

That was my experience with learning Korean also. Duolingo was great for learning Hangul, but then I just had random words of vocabulary and no real idea how to put them together. The example sentences they used were also bizarre sometimes. "The baby likes fox milk" kind of bizarre.

[@user-iy9jh8id8l]

If you click the heart in the top corner, you can practice to earn more hearts, it earns you xp and you can't fail it, no cost to hearts etc. I feel like this might fix a few of your gripes here. I've done 3 years of Spanish and bits of French and German before I've travelled and I agree with it being hard to learn for actually structuring your own thoughts and sentences, useful for politeness and a few basics though

[@Snailirific]

Finally someone who pointed this out!

[@manolismarinakis8444]

In this episode of "Ellen's addiction to achievements" To be clear, the conqueror challenges rule, duolingo...not so much

[@Icam_here]

not sure why there can't be a plastic tree in the white void. all hail Barry the plant

[@nicholascross3557]

I always admired one of my uncles strategy when in France, given he spoke, essentially, a handful of words and phrases, the most useful of which was "My wife doesn't speak French" which, he said, directly appealed to Gallic chivalry... and got people to speak in English. Which rather annoyed my aunt who _did_ speak French and my uncle's habit deprived her of the opportunity to practice the language as often as she would like.

[@mt_baldwin]

It's good to use as a supplement to a class. My daughter has done 3 years of duo lingo alongside 2 years of spanish class, she started duo lingo one year before the class. Duo lingo gave her a good head start for the class, knowing a bunch of words but it was the class that got her to actually start to understand and speak spanish properly.

[@limegreenelevator]

Had a streak of 1100 days (French, then added Spanish, then added Irish Garlic), paid for it, spent over 2 years in the Diamond League, and I agree. Even knowing the words I'd never feel comfortable trying to hold a conversation in any of the languages. Ended the streak when I started teaching this year (math) due to being busy. Don't know if I'll go back. (By the way, if you thought 375 was high, just wait to see the Diamond League, where top finishers frequently have >10K points, and where sometimes I've seen users with >4K points in a week relegated downwards...

[@katfromthekong414]

In my head canon the plant's name ended up as Colin-Barry and he can never not be in the frame anymore ...... I bet there is also a complex and well thought-out backstory for Colin-Barry that Luke and Ellen can't wait to tell us about.... 😆

[@notthatcreativewithnames]

For some odd reasons, I just combine them and make Colinbury, which sounds more like what would happen if Colin Furze founds his own town.

[@katfromthekong414]

@@notthatcreativewithnames wait ... do you mean Colin Firth? 🤔😜

[@boonlincoln]

Anche io sto usando Duolingo, ho fatto tutto il corso di cinese ma serviva più come sussidio mentre facevo lezioni vere e proprie con un insegnante. Adesso faccio spagnolo e ho una streak di oltre 800! Penso che per imparare e mantenere attivo il vocabolario possa servire abbastanza bene ma è sempre meglio avere anche un insegnante vero. Non portate via Barry!

[@caldwin]

Welcome to the channel, Barry. I can't wait to see what kind of content you bring to the show.

[@ka-mai]

It's gonna be microplastic in the air

[@Velleos]

I tried every way I could find to learn Japanese for 20 years and couldn't get it. For about 2 months recently, I switched my phone to Japanese, and listened to bilingual podcasts where both languages were spoken, and lots of lessons. In those two months, I learned more than I had in the previous twenty years. I also recommend children's stories, and Discord language exchange servers. I'm still using Duolingo to learn some vocabulary, but that's all it's good for.

[@nicholaslamendola2808]

Luke: "You can't beat a human teacher, can you?" was finished in my head with "I've tried, and it's never helped my grades"

[@alirezaghorbanpour1001]

I thought duolingo will murder you if you dont learn the languages properly. Glad ellen is safe and sound

[@manolismarinakis8444]

for now...

[@phantomknightencounterist]

Spanish or vanish

[@cactustactics]

So long as you keep the fires lit you'll be safe 365 days🔥

[@ka-mai]

Not if you murder it first!

[@ka-mai]

@@phantomknightencounterist Italian or be-gone-ing! Sorry.

[@robertsimmons8377]

I did a year in German on Super Duolingo and the leaderboards stressed me out so much. You can opt out of them by making your profile private. While it doesn’t diminish the pressure the app puts on you, it does help with the competitive aspect of it.

[@ezzwhitezombie666]

“I’m sorry i’m English” 😂

[@SmallGreenPlanetoid]

As a 1216-day streak holder, the Japanese course has been revised thrice since I started. Some of the translations have gotten _worse_ since then. One of the newer minigames translated the word 半 (meaning "half") as "thirty," which is flat-out wrong. Duolingo's course somehow associated it with "thirty" because it's used in the Japanese equivalent of the phrase "half past (time)"

[@Elfangorax]

That overly formal bent is the exact experience I've had learning Hungarian with Duolingo. It wants me to bid farewell with "Viszontlátásra" or Viszlát", but I spent enough time in Budapest speaking to actual Hungarians to know how weird it would be to use those in most settings. Duolingo is only useful in concert with other learning sources.

[@vaspeter2600]

Duolingo doesn't really work well with the finer points of the Hungarian language. 😅 Levels of formality is one of those.

[@MichaelSmith-zw5fu]

I've done Japanese for 1200 days. Watching anime subbed is a better learning tool for the language.

[@EchoFiend]

I must have started at the exact same time as Ellen on the Japanese course and I feel the same way. At the beginning with basic sentences it was fine but then duo began to throw grammar rules at me without ever explaining them, it was also testing me on the sound and kanji of vocab without ever telling me the english translation. When they straight up deleted the forums that were actually helping me learn I lost all motivation. This video inspired me to give it up for good and try a different approach. ありがとうございます。

[@LokiMischief]

Years ago I took Japanese at uni. It's been over a decade and I wanted to refresh my skills. What they teach for Japanese and what I remember my teachers teaching are vastly different. There's a Japanese phrase that you say when meeting people that is literally "Please be kind to me." Duolingo has it as "Nice to meet you." Bit different there. Like Ellen said: learn from a teacher when at all possible. Duolingo is a helpful study aid, but it needs a lot more input and help before being able to fully teach a language.

[@CantankerousDave]

Yoroshiku can be used a hundred different ways - Nice to meet you, happy to be here, I look forward to doing business with you, thanks for having me, please do this thing for me, etc. It’s all about context.

[@AD_Gray]

I started learning Spanish using Duo Lingo over the last two weeks whilst on holiday and I found it really good! The actual sentences it gets you to practice aren't very helpful, but getting to know what basic things are ("I would like" or "Where is the...?" for example) is really helpful 😊 I enjoy the game aspect of DL but I'm under no illusion it will teach me a full language 😂 I've been able to have conversations in Spanish using what I have learned though🎉

[@DigitalStatic]

Agree 100%! When I had a Spanish streak, I remember a lot of the times where I had to press the words in order to translate into English, I'd just base it off of what sentence would make sense in English rather than what the Spanish actually was. It's great for vocab you might not get otherwise but it didn't/hasn't done much for my comprehension as a whole.

[@brandonabbott9817]

I have a more than two year streak on Japanese because I felt myself losing bits of it from my university Japanese and wanting to improve. It's really just vocabulary help. If that were all, that would be fine. However, not only does it present some things in ways that while not breaking any 'hard and fast' rules, are said in ways that one just wouldn't use. It makes differentiations that don't exist in the language ('sensei' can mean both 'teacher' and 'doctor' but not to the bird!). Most frustratingly, it speaks things out with non-native accents! That might help when learning with other non-native speakers but the point is to learn the native accents! I don't want my ear, and thus my own voice, to be tuned to the accent of a person from India who learned Japanese, I want to sound more like native speakers!

[@Pseudowolf]

I once worked with a guy who immigrated from Cuba. He learned Italian and then learned English, and he said he recommended that for going from Spanish to a English and vice-versa. According to him, Italian is similar enough to both languages to make it easier to learn & when you do it’s easier to move to the other language ftom there.

[@Michael_Lindell]

If we don't see Barry in the next episode I will feel Bamboozled!

[@kashinfuu]

I did duolingo alongside Danish classes for years and founf it so unhelpful - it's like it drills you to translate back into English and then out into the language again which isn't how conversing works, so it's just unhelpful.anyway i have strong feelings about the owl app and i'm pleased someone else is saying it too

[@crueltyfreemusings1696]

I have been over 1000xp as ftp... but I also just reset my progress in Hebrew because I got quite far in the exploratory level and then felt like I had missed some crucial rules in constructing past tense. So I'm reviewing in the rookie level of the course and it's much easier to get perfects. I also make it a goal to to either complete a whole circle or half of one every day that I practice (like Ellen, I make liberal use of streak freezes). I also have the unfair advantage of already being multilingual 😅 I learned German at uni and it gave me a solid background in how to learn a language. Speaking with friends or teachers is the most helpful way to get real experience, and adding the structure of the grammatical rules around the vocabulary you're learning from Duo is the second most helpful. Ultimately, Duolingo is a not-very-fun game and better for reviewing content you know and learning vocabulary than trying to learn the language itself from scratch

[@durrell246]

Ah, the validation of my feelings about the Owl App. I thought for ages I was just dumb for not understanding the grammar of the languages I was learning, but it really does just not teach you the grammar, and expect you to know it, and then punishes you when you make a grammatical error. It also loves to incessantly insist that a specific word is the word for whatever, then switch it up without teaching you the synonym. It'll say 'this is the word for walk' for weeks, and then randomly get you to translate the sentence 'Bob took a stroll to the shop', and punish you for thinking stroll and walk are the same. ...and breathe

[@legomanfan7777]

I love Duolingo, so I feel obliged to say you don't have to pay for hearts! If you click on the heart symbol you can choose practice mode to earn hearts. Also if you want to earn more xp you can do the special lessons which are hidden in a different tab. Also you can earn a lot of xp if you do a lesson in the morning and in the evening. If you do lessons in those hours you earn a double xp bonus for the next evening or morning which you can activate in the shop

[@AdamusPrime24]

Exactly what I do ^^ The post-6am/pm bonuses were intro'd relatively recently and I feel they're nice little incentives which were more effective than before they introduced them; doing double the amount you used to ^^ Some apps are very much 'CONTINUE YOUR DAILY LOGIN OR SUFFER', but Duo feels more like positive encouragement ^^

[@fw2231]

Yes! The practice mode is honestly kind of my fave and I bring it up to any one I know who uses Duolingo because it's amazing how many people aren't aware of it! It even still gives some XP along with refilling hearts. And it's a nice change of pace if you want to do a more casual "speed run" session where you try to answer as quickly and instinctively as possible, instead of puzzling answers out through logic to avoid losing hearts.

[@LilleTotte]

I got a 365 day streak in Japanese about two years ago (for reason I started *after* we went there) and even got to the top Diamond league where everyone was mostly kind of meh and lazy so every day that week I went trough all the easy lessons I knew by heart over and over again to farm XP. When there was an hour or so left I sat in an armchair at my parents' place, and it was me and some Italian guy who were hundreds of XP above the rest and I had just taken the lead by five points, fearing that he would get another lesson in and sniping first place. But I got it and with that I had all the golden achievements. Starting Duoling again now I see that they have an acheivement for completing one legendary level, whatever that is. I might give it another go even if they teach you some of the extreme honorifics, used for like a head of state and in at least one case only the Emperor of Japan.

[@cactustactics]

Duolingo was great for me a few years back - I did a Spanish GCSE but this got me way further in way less time. But there's a point where it stopped being useful, except for kinda drilling various grammar things. After that, doing stuff like watching videos or listening to podcasts in Spanish, or reading actual Spanish books or websites, and using a dictionary to check stuff - that was way more useful because it's actual communication! (Missing the speaking/writing side but y'know) Things were better then though - the actual explanation content was more visible (a lot of people don't even know it's there) and you could also post on the discussions for each question, which was a gold mine for info about what's going on here and what grammar is in use and why not this instead etc. They locked those and I heard some people can't even read what's there anymore? The hearts thing was the last straw for me, just really disappointing for a project that claimed free education was important to them, locking people out ain't it

[@Snailirific]

You can do exercises to earn back hearts. You can keep going indefinitely if you do so, no need to wait or purchase Super.

[@cactustactics]

@@Snailirific yeah you can, but it's basically forcing you to do something else, instead of the learning you actually want to do. And ime "practice" ends up being basic stuff from way earlier in the tree that you really don't need to spend time on. If I'm getting stuff wrong, then that's what I need to practice, not "X eats apples" over and over, y'know? It wastes your time and feels like punishment you're gonna want to skip (and that's the incentive to pay up)

[@Snailirific]

@@cactustactics I see it as a refresher and don't mind doing it.

[@TigerofRobare]

I had a similar experience with Duolingo a few years ago. I was doing French and at first it was great, because it was dredging up memories of French classes from when I was a kid, but as soon as I went beyond that level it became impossible because it wasn't really teaching me anything and didn't really offer a way to learn. Meanwhile I've been inadvertantly teaching myself Latin just by having to copy things out on a Facebook page I run.

[@candybeans]

Duolingo Plus has been worth it. Just for more streak freezes. But I'll say my spouse did German for a year (he's almost to three years straight now) and was able to go on a business trip. I've done Spanish for over a year and had some good results (but my husband is also around to tell me what's Castilian Spanish vs. what people actually say 😅

[@candybeans]

End parenthesis.

[@IESUproductions]

Now I'm hoping Ellen does a TikTok next time shes in Italy where she says "Im sorry I'm English" and walks into the sea 😂

[@DavidCowie2022]

Courses on Duolingo vary greatly in quality. I started out with Indonesian (because it's exotic and relatively easy to learn), but the course never explained anything - it just showed you words and phrases and told you what they meant. I decided that my time would be better spent refreshing the French and German that I did at school REDACTED years ago (they had been explained to me, even if it was a long time ago). Imagine my surprise when every lesson had a "Tips" section outlining the grammar and vocabulary it introduced.

[@AlyrArkhon]

Thank you from my heart for this video. I'm playing duolingo for years and all these things you said is so true. (my first problem was the "ok, I've learned three ways for good bye, but when do I have to use them? Which one I use in a shop? or a restaurant?" And duolingo does not teach this) It is a good way to start learning a language, but you have to use other things (for example a real course with a real teacher) if you really want to learn it. And onde more thing: you can practice for more lives in duolingo (which is good, because in these practices you cannot lose a heart and still get gems)

[@Maymer]

COMPLETELY agree with this video. I downloaded Duolingo to dust off my GCSE French and it was absolutely useless because it was essentially logic puzzles for how a sentence should go and it being multiple choice a lot of the time I felt I never had to remember the right word but just figure out what the right one is. Like if you asked me cold what the french word for IDK the station was I wouldn't be able to tell you but I could look at the list and go "well it's not chat, chien or monsieur is it" I then decided to give it another go on a language I knew nothing about and tried Arabic, and again the lives thing made it useless because it would show you random letters of the alphabet and then get mad at you were confused about how the alphabet worked

[@Snailirific]

You can just do Practice to get hearts back. No waiting or Super needed. Surprised so few people know about this.

[@TheDoomista]

Next to each unit title, there is an icon of a booklet. If you click it, you will get the explanation how to sausage is made in relation to each unit's topic.

[@ilsingr5750]

I've never tried Duolingo but I have taken 5 years of German and I will definitely say don't be too surprised about not getting syntax and proper sentence structure down pat in a year. A great way to think of it is "You've been learning this language for a year, you are essentially a one year old for a native speaker." Also I completely agree with Luke regarding these types of learning experiences being so much better in person though.

[@tomacalin86]

I am 1100 days in the Japanese language course on Duolingo (more for a refresher, cuz I did study it a lifetime ago) and for lost lives, I go for the "do a separate lesson to recover your hearts"

[@jayrodriguez4645]

So Ellen went from "Worshiping the Owl" to The Owl Can F#%k off, in 1 year. 🤣🤣 I'm learning Japanese on it. And yeah, it does feel like it's gonna take forever to actually be able to hold a conversation with a native Japanese speaker but I'm still going to keep going. We'll see how it goes. I am also watching Japanese wrestling to try to grasp the language quicker. (I was born in The U.S. but grew up in Mexico. Spanish is my mother tongue. But my love for WWE wrestling motivated me to keep learning English once I moved back to my country. I'm using that love of wrestling to keep me motivated to learn Japanese now.

[@archer8492]

Yes Ellen, exactly. The owl can f**k off. I have a 500+ day streak learning Polish, but my proficiency in Polish (minimal though it is) is based largely on the fact that I have a Polish wife and have been visiting the country for almost 10 years (and I still struggle with huge numbers of basic things). Ellen made a lot of good points about Duolingo, how it focuses on 'streaks' and 'leagues' and other things that don't effing matter when you're trying to build proficiency in a language. It's useful, but it should not be the crux of how you learn a language, just an ancillary way to add some extra practice between whatever 'proper' lessons/studying you're doing. Also, hi Barry, welcome to the team!

[@ryvyl]

When I was in middle school band, I actually played "When the Saints Go Marching In" on trumpet in class for a warmup and got an ovation for it.

[@ethanlappin]

The Owl is coming for you just for making this video

[@Galvamel]

Great video. I love it when you're just geeking out about something you like or hate. Still want that documentary about the Ice Troll , though. I would watch that every morning to start my day.

[@ShaneS101]

Had a long streak in German for awhile and I liked old Duolingo better. They used to have sentence structure lessons and you could pick from different lessons in a tree. Now it's all linear and themed by vocab with the structure relegated to a little button that gives you a couple of hints. Just got back from Germany not long ago and I realized that the 4 years I did in high school stuck in my head and helped way more than my Duolingo content that seems to have evaporated from my brain.

[@hoshiro.exsharaen]

I tried Duolingo years ago, also in Italian. I only managed using it for couple days because I felt I understood nothing except for the vocabularies (which I forgot already now except for l'acqua). I didn't understand how to string together those words to form my own complete sentences, how Italian grammar works. Guess I'm more a traditional learner 😅

[@amandawalck9467]

Totally agree on the whole 'guess why' on Duolingo. I decided I wanted to try to learn French & am currently @ 60 days. I started to get my footing with Le & La but then they go and introduce L' to me with no explanation so now I'm like 'What?'. Same with Vas / Va / Vais. On top of that the speaking sections don't seem that helpful either. I mimic the sentence & it'll say 'wrong' but I won't be able to understand what's wrong with how I've said it. There have also been times when I've botched the sentence, like got tongue tied while speaking it botched. And it'll give me a 'perfect'.

[@skilletborne]

I love Barry, he's the best cast member

[@GriffinWolf]

Congrats, Ellen! Keep it up! I have a 1651 day streak and my Spanish still sucks :) I'll mention, as you get further through a course, you get more and more diverse lesson types. It was at least 3 years before I started really getting the hang of the grammar. Ellen, you do know that there's a "tips" section on each lesson that explains the rules, right?? Cause you keep saying it's a guessing game, but you are supposed to do the reading...

[@LemonArsonist]

The appeal of Duolingo for me anyway is that, even though real progress is super slow, I am making progress, and I don''t have the time, money, or capacity for stress for real lessons. Like, if i weren't using Duolingo, I wouldn't be doing french at all, because real lessons are stressful, and expensive, and self directed study is unsustainable long term. At the very least my french is getting slowly better over time, instead of regressing from lack of use.

[@aceofspades9503]

Enjoyed the vid, and passed it on to a handful of friends who have been trying to learn Italian via DuoLingo!

[@morningtime7187]

Show of the weekend is hands down my fave OX thing. 😍

[@michaelfourie]

I have been doing German on Duo, mainly just to reinforce the German i learnt at higschool and the one university level class i was able to take, and I have also noticed that Duo really only teaches the formal language instead of the coloquial varients you would more likely encounter. One other thing I have noticed is that they don't, though it might just be very later on, teach about how words can have different meanings depending on situation and if they get cpitalized or not. But also it hasn't helped my learning through Duo, that they have changed the lesson system so much just with in the last year or so, meaning I have no idea where I am compared to before they changed the lesson tree style.

[@carlobyrne2885]

"are you giving yourself permission to stop".....errrrmmmmm *looks at camera* had me howling 😂

[@SolaScientia]

I've tried Duolingo for a few different languages as well and the vocabulary focus was something I noticed immediately. I'm pretty decent at learning languages, but I prefer a grammar focus. I took Classical Latin for four years in undergrad and then used it for another 2 years in relation to my Linguistics MA. Latin tends to be taught with heavy grammar focus, same for Ancient Greek. I've also taken Japanese both in undergrad and during my MA, and once again it had a heavier grammar focus. It worked perfectly for me. I ran into issues with Duolingo and never stuck with it for long because it didn't let me focus on grammar and I never felt like I was actually learning the language. I just knew random words and that won't help me properly communicate with someone in their own language. I've only ever used the desktop site and that was years ago now, so I have no idea if it functions like the app, but the currencies and such do make it into more of a game than an actual tool for learning a language. Just give me the physical textbooks and I'll teach myself the language. I taught myself the Japanese 201 material over about 3 weeks in grad school because I'd tested into 202 and I hadn't actually learned the 201 material (I just knew enough to know what not to write or whatever). It was easy enough to teach myself a semester's worth of Japanese, but I know that people all learn differently and learning a language is very difficult.

[@connorburton1009]

The moment Duolingo added the life system, it became expressly clear to me that their goal was not to help people learn languages, but to make people think they were learning a language while extracting as much money from them as possible.

[@shomshomni2314]

The lives are good because you can practice to earn more hearts when you run out. Sometimes, you're not ready to move up to the next level

[@Zenlore6499]

“The owl can f**k off!” The owl: 😢

[@crowhaven895]

Duolingo promoted me out of the zone I was working while I was still struggling with sentence arrangement.

[@thepiedpiper3034]

Barry is now family, to lose Barry would be to lose a limb.

[@DrDragonRoller]

I also had a go at Welsh (as I now live and work here) but gave up after three consecutive days of just saying "I do/do not eat peas" 😅😂

[@kunegund9690]

That's learning languages.... usually you get to change nouns though.

[@CindyHelms]

First the Conqurer Challenge, now Duolingo (Whom I've avoiding Learning Japanese from)?! There can't be any more things that can be called out to me by you guys, right...? Right?!

[@motbus3]

The plant is now as important as Jon. You can't get rid of it anymore

[@kennonheard50]

I just watched a 20 minute video on Duolingo at 4:30 in the morning and enjoyed it. I'm honestly just concerned that I'm not concerned...

[@sashasscribbles]

This is a real shame tbh, I've been using Duo for spanish on and off for a while now and I find it really fun and rewarding, but yeah I still am not that confident with forming sentences... Do still feel myself improving though! And in lue of an actual teacher I do think Duo is worthwhile~ Just yeah not for a completionist for sure, poor Ellen hehe

[@JanvanEs]

Love doing Duolingo! Right now Portuguese (I've been going to Portugal all my life and this year decided to try Duolingo, 133 days in) Spanish, Italian, France, German. When I started it was like, Japanese, Chinese, Norse, Greek, Latin, Swedish, High Valyrian, Klingon, Russian, Polish, Irish... but I soon diminished it to the first five...

[@Janokins]

I'm on 100 day streak on my duolingo and I feel like it's enough to probably get by as a tourist, "where is the train station?" "how much does this cost?" "pizza please" that kind of thing I don't like that you have to kind of intuit the rules. Thankfully the structure of the sentence doesn't really change for the language I'm learning, but there are so many verb endings 0_0 I, you, you (posh), you (plural), he, she, they, we... then there's the whole genitive, accusative, dative thing, and the tenses. If only the multi-choice answers popped up in real life xD

[@MrGenovation]

Love how Ellen is like "I can't understand how this word is what it is" when the entire English language is "Well, we did this, but also this which means the same thing! Also it's wrong now, lol"

[@DEEJAYWAL]

As the writer H. Beam Piper said "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms trying to make dates with Saxon barmaids in old Roman towns, and is no more legitimate than any of the other offspring of such encounters"

[@jji7447]

I used to think this was an English only problem. It's not.

[@nikkianzalone2914]

We still have a spot on our Family Duolingo plan if you want it Ellen 😅 I totally agree with a lot of this. There are little articles at the beginning of each unit that better explain some of the grammar rules in the lesson but it isn’t enough. I still get confused in my German lessons all the time about sentence structure. 500 days strong though. You best believe I can say “For the bear a coffee and for me a milk please” in German

[@Laira348]

In the owl’s defence, duolingo does have some grammar explanations, there’s a little info section for each unit. However that is not gamified at all, so it’s on you to read it through and remember it, which means it’s a lot harder to pick up

[@prime3k]

I've been learning Spanish through Duolingo, and recently hit a 365-day streak. I'd still struggle to start a conversation in Spanish, though my reading comprehension is /fine/. I'll be looking at proper language lessons at some point, as after all this time I need to make real progress.

[@halglass4751]

This is SO validating because I also have a decently lengthy Italian Duolingo streak and I've had the exact same experience, with the exact same upsides and downsides. I know so many Italian words and understand so little Italian grammar 😭

[@alejandromartindejesus15]

I think the problem really is that Duolingo works best as a flashcard app, similar to Anki. Which is why there are also plenty of Anki decks for language. And flashcards only really help with rote memory, not with comprehension or application, which is what you need to learn grammar.