Who Is Leading the eBike Motor Battle?

[@embn]

What brand of motor do you currently have?

[@balintgyulay425]

@@embn i bught a yt decoy with shimano ep 801 with xt elecronic shift unit and i love it. It was black friday sale. Cheers Happy Christmas.

[@wizzyno1566]

Ye olde bosch on a 2016 Cube 160 Race ebike. 3rd motor. Its still good but the bike looks ancient nowadays, like riding a Penny Farthing.

[@eaze7324]

Mgu

[@joemansky29275]

Giant Reign e+ 1 V1 2023, SyncDrive Pro2. Most of the time, anything above tour mode has more power than I need. Great battery range!

[@daithidebarradb]

The brand you always say never ever buy. Bafang its 2018

[@richardandrews6299]

What we need is standardised frame mounting with adapters for larger to smaller motors, universal battery packs and the opportunity to buy service/repair kits without voidong warranty. BASIC standards such as frame mounting gives older bikes (3-4 for eg) a chance to be ridden still but maybe with the latest motor/battery. Standard Plug & Play systems & universal displays - give us the choice to spec our bikes the way we can with analogue bikes.

[@stuka78]

@@richardandrews6299 in a world of design where motor must be as much integrated and sleek as possible, you want one large motor box with multi brackets to fit in any motor you like… and with the cybersecurity laws coming to be enforced, you want to have multiple suppliers batteries to talk with multiple suppliers motors and displays, out of the blue. And once anything happened on the system, at the first error code, who would be blamed? Motor brand or battery brand or display brand? The game of “it wasn’t me” starts…

[@billmcmillan7735]

Everybody knows this will never happen, the industry is not interested in anything that lengthens the life of any bike!!

[@sety409]

Sounds like it would kill sales because many like us would not buy a new frame for a while. Unfortunately, money dictates what gets done.

[@markdove5930]

Never happening

[@islandaerial3414]

After my 1st Bosch Gen 2 that got 12,000 km, I haven't been able to get more than 5600 km out of the next 4. Now on #6 DU with crossed fingers which, is why I got a Yamaha to try out. A few thousand kms and running strong

[@jansevriens3187]

Finally, finally, someone who talks about the reliability and reperability of E-Bike motors, it is ridiculous that after the warranty period you have to pay a substantial amount of money for a new motor, because it cannot be repaired and most manufacturers do not supply spare parts, future e-bike customers must realize this by not buying, force the manufacturers to offer a decent aftersales policy, in particular to make statements about reliability, long term feasibility in hours of use and mileage, greetings Jan.

[@mondfuchs5345]

hm... thanks for the overview Steve, great to have this captured within a short video to remind us. Its interesting how DJI has became a challenger to all manufacturers especially Specialized which were the leading pioneers of complete integration. It seems you may have received save the dates from them as you expressing so much them 😉. Would love to see a new eBike from them which could be next "big" thing in eBike industry. But please, not fully automated...😅

[@jokermtb]

Reliability is king…and repairability queen

[@danielsimmonds5162]

Great video as always Steve, (looking cozy for the festive break, enjoy) Yamaha and Bosch on my rigs. Still think upping the limiter to 20mph/32kph would be of great benefit to me in between trails and on the fire roads here in Scotland!! 🤞🏻🤞🏻 Have a good one 🎄⛄🥂

[@TonyBrunt]

@@danielsimmonds5162 Funny, bikes in NZ are limited to 32kph.

[@greycup5748]

we absolutely do not need 12 gears on an emtb. I recently "upgraded" my Scott Ransom 920 to a Shimano CUES 9 speed (Cheapest groupset you can get) and so far no chain skip in any gear. I had gone through 3 rear cassettes countless chains and one front chain ring and one rear mech countless hours adjusting the 12 speed to perfection on the stand all to get out on the trail and once under torque and load chain skip crunch gears crunch crunch skip skip etc etc. Ebikes produce so much torque and a 12 speed has such tight and precise spacing that under torque or load any flexing of the chain or the frame causes miss alignment ever so slightly and then skip chain crunch gears and shortly you find yourself replacing chains and rear cassettes. The original 12 speed was a 10X53 tooth system I had replaced it with a 10X46 12sp system when I replaced the mech. The reason I did that is because I never used the top largest 3 cogs on the 12x53, and reality is I still almost never use the 3 largest on the 10x46 12sp. The 9 Speed is a wide range 11 by 46 and I rarely ever use the largest 2 rear cogs (actually to date not at all) , Ive put only about 150 miles on the bike since the 9 speed conversion but still have yet to use the 46 tooth and the one just down from it, But so far no skip under even the heaviest of torgue load and the shifting is great and crisp and sure. The 9 speed has much wider spacing between the cogs and is not as sensitive to not being perfectly aligned. 9 Speed system in my opinion is WAY Better for Ebikes!!!

[@noControl556]

I want to see other companies start selling motors in the Bosch CX mounting platform as well as their batteries, create a defacto standard so you have upgrade opportunities and more options to build custom setups from a frame, etc.

[@stuka78]

@@noControl556 which is not the smartest platform out there, in terms of size, volume and position of hangers

[@lifer7918]

I have a brose motor on my Levo. Good motor, died after a year, but replaced under warranty. Ride ith guys on all other motors and I think the Bosch is more powerful down low while still being efficient, as is the Yamaha. Regardless, I love my Levo and can’t get enough time in the saddle! Will be interesting to see what’s going to be released in 2025.

[@barryholt3526]

@@lifer7918 I have a levo the Brose 2.2 and a Bosch CX Gen 4 on a Whyte E160. I bought the Whyte last and even with all the settings maxed out I'm very disappointed with the Bosch. It seems to take so much effort to get it to do anything. Have you increased the pedal response and shuttle modes on your Levo. With those at 100% it's extremely responsive, hence my disappointment with Bosch. It's not surprising they had to release the race version to compete.

[@stuka78]

@@lifer7918 new Yamaha LINK system

[@fundidoarrojo269]

"Good motor" and "died under a year" are incompatible things...

[@barryholt3526]

@@fundidoarrojo269 all motors have issues and I'm sure for every brand you will find people that have had problems in less than 1 month. The saving grace is how the dealer & brand deals with warranties.

[@lifer7918]

@@barryholt3526 haven’t touched shuttle, but played with response. Certainly changes things, but his trek Rail can hold much lower cadence for output up steep inclines where mine can’t. We have swapped bikes to take the rider out of the equation and same outcome. He could just have a freak motor.

[@Thelocalwobbler]

Totally agree with your point Steve that it’s not just the motor but the whole package, a motor is there to get us up the hill who cares if I get there faster or slower than anyone else to me it’s about the down hills, and allowing me to ride as many trails as my body will allow me to, geometry, suspension , feel , agility fun and warranty are the key factors to me

[@patrickwardle772]

the Ananda M100 on budget bikes is a winner, 250 watt motor pumping out 110nm torque. Done nearly 2000km in a few months and still running like a dream

[@philboynz]

I updated my brose motor with new seals bearings etc, its mint !

[@ThePatschau]

The government of the European Union should pass a law that obliges manufacturers of all e-bikes engines to produce and sell spare parts.

[@rafaelpettersdacunha71]

And make the marked much more expensive and impossible to work until we have less possibilities available and blame the government for not supporting bicycles? Good idea, don't you think?

[@MichaelSmith-fg8xh]

+ standard frame mounting points and battery interoperability (so a bad experience with a motor manufacturer doesn't mean a new frame)

[@АлександрГаврилов-щ7л]

@@ThePatschau because of that I have chosen BAFANG, so can buy every spare on ALI, or a motor, which costs 600$

[@jokermtb]

Right to repair is fundamental

[@artsteale3443]

I would like to see more motor gearbox units.

[@RobHill00]

Amflow, the power is crazy but it was the whole system that I was interested in, lite weight, fast charging and the customisation on the app! Early days at the moment!?

[@ipearce1]

Has to be Yamaha for me as reliability is key.

[@nommag2383]

This!

[@ericbentti]

Mine too

[@anotherider2]

Yamaha hasn't failed me once in 5 years of exploring Dartmoor. Bog snorkling terrain kills weak motors.

[@TheBikeRoom]

Don't know what's up with my Yamaha Pw-ST motors. I'm on the 3rd one after buying the bike new 12 months ago> Ok, both swapped under warranty. this third unit is at the 1,200 kms odo which is the point where the first two gave error code 73, which spelled their end. The Simplo battery 630Wh has been faultless although the sideswitch display Type-A has a backlight issue now, so on a night ride I have to shine my headlamp at the screen as it has stopped illuminating the entrie screen. It's also a bit under-powered on steep S Wales trails at only 70Nm. I'm looking closely at the DJI AMflow.

[@chrispederson4157]

My pw-st has 2300km no problems.

[@Dangit-Dangit]

Ananda for all the fellow battlers out there!

[@iancameron415]

I certainly believe that e-bikes don’t need the standard 12 gear drivetrains that are currently common. The close gear ratios just aren’t necessary with all the extra power.

[@mitchelmckay3651]

Doing a 10 hour ride , riding at 30% to conserve battery, 100% was thankful for 12 speeds on the steep climbs

[@robertpatrick3350]

What’s missing is leak detection…. It’s unforgivable that E-bike motors don’t have monitoring…… it’s old tech…. It’s cheap….. it could provide a service now signal … a few seals and bearings instead of a failed motor….. oil filled is another possibility. Reliability serviceability and longevity those are the issues manufacturers need to address….

[@stuka78]

@@robertpatrick3350 oil filled motor means maintenance intervals and oil change…

[@p199a]

10:40 ah great thinking. I just hope one day drivetrain manufacturers will also come to this conclusion.

[@davefreeman9347]

Absolutely right Steve we do not need 12 gears on a emtb especially the full fat units, I would prefer a 8-10 speed system

[@andresamson8859]

9-10 would be my perfect number, I never use my 51 and 45 teeth, and I could space out a bit to save another one. I think linkglide was spot on with 10gear on a normal drivetrain. It's sad that Pinion kept the same form factor between the MGU E1.9 and E1.12. and only save 100gr. It looks like the motor was design around the E1.12 and the E1.9 was an after tought. The E1.12 is a 3x4gears system, and they made it a 3x3gear for the E1.9. I wonder what form factor they could have making it a 2x4 or 2x5.

[@ortegapcs]

Shimano Linkglide ❤

[@kanaalvanNI]

I liked riding with the rocky mountain, it could have used a bit overrun but plenty of power, but i ended up buying something with a bosch race, i like the way you get support and i know there's plenty of people doing maintenance, plenty of spares, plenty of goodwill if you enter a broken motor,... I like to keep a bike for longer than the official warranty period,..

[@ChStone-kl2ch]

Bosch gen 4 👌 Radon render 👍

[@stoneenforcer]

Bosch is the leader for many good reasons.

[@Holloweve]

Who is leading the e-bike motor battle…. Conclusion. No one. Brilliant

[@akrotiri9634]

Yep, final straw for me. Unsubscribed. They’re paid hacks at this point. Basically an advert channel. Nothing critical , nothing helpful for the consumer to aid in their purchase decisions. Sad!

[@dariotuga3784]

9:16

[@zdenekkratochvil288]

@embn, you mentioned question "Do we need as much motor adjustability as we have now?". I think that motor adjustability is similarly important as adjustability of the suspension. It does not have sense for the person who does not have enough experience and can not distinguish what he need for own riding style and tereain where he rides. But for the rider who knows what they need and are able to feel differences and who are able to use it is adjustability really beneficial/useful and sometimes can be also important (especially for those who are riding very challanging rutes). It means that it is important only for few percent of riders but for them it is really important and delivers another level of the functionality.

[@tomcagle5324]

Dream drive unit? ZF-90Nm has the greatest potential with its compact size for a nice 8 spd compact MGU and then throw on the DJI's wireless electronics.👊

[@progpuss]

I have himiway a7pro with Ananda motor at the sprocket mid mount . Great so far but only done 300 miles, hope it's reliable long term.

[@Extremegaz25]

Steve the last thing you said was reliability and that is the thing what we need most, spend over 3000 to 9000 and absolutely reliability is the no1.

[@vaughanboyce3702]

I have to disagree, I feel it's the motor/battery combo that's the most important, most manufacturers have the roughly similar geometry now days. People ask me what bike to buy, I say simply anything with a Bosch.

[@stuka78]

@@vaughanboyce3702 same geometry dictated by the same shape of motor and battery = bosch…

[@msjj000]

Spot on

[@aphtonyjim]

I think Bosch currently are the market leaders.....and then maybe Shimano. These seem to be on most of the brands generally. I have a Canyon spectral On E8000 motor and it's been great on reliability, ridden in very bad UK wet and muddy winters.....also well looked after I may add. I really want a pinion MGU but the price and lack of choice are a big stopping point at the moment, plus there's very little feedback from any owners out there.

[@poppa5289]

Im more than happy running my souped up BBSHD with a Sturmey Archer 3 speed igh on a PK Ripper fat bike

[@randyrichardson8048]

Now that I've had any bike for a little while has the Bosch CX I definitely feel like we only need maybe six gears wider spread apart

[@davidyoung-nb2pu]

Steve i have watch too many of your videos lol your like a kid in a sweet shop...I have the TQ on the trek fuel Ex-e. I noticed Trek have added this motor to another of their bikes.. with a bigger battery.. I hope Trek have thought about us with only a 380 wh and made the 580 wh fitable to the Ex-e..

[@davefreeman9347]

Me to I have the same bike 😊

[@melnickharris1177]

I've had 16,000 ks out of a e8000 i haven't had the privilege to try these top of the range bikes but have you herd of any people getting more than that out of there motors the e8000 does still work 🤘👌

[@arrowrod]

I'm a Bafang rider. I don't wash my bike. Just got a new one, old one still works fine. 5 years old. European Ebike: €10,000. My 1000watt M620 $3000. I ride every day. Prefer it over a car. Large backpack for groceries and Pickleball gear. I try to play 6 days a week.

[@mha1978dent]

Polini I think Steve

[@simonfaux5781]

As far as gear I seem to only use 4-5 maybe a downhill cassette is the go. I am using a ep801 after breaking my ep8 after 5000 km.

[@sohagbr]

Bosch Performance CX (gen 4)

[@tonygregg6957]

The Pivot Shuttle SL is an amazing bike but the Fazua motor is pretty much junk, it spent 5 months in the workshop out of 18mnths and almost put me off eMTB completely. So I'd say yes the motor is important, along with it's backup and support. It also seems to me that the whole industry needs to be more accountable. If I buy a VW Amarok they don't make me go to Ford if I have an engine issue or Brembo if the brakes stop working. The bike maker has choosen that parts and should ultimately stand by them. I'm very lucky in that my local shop have been amazing with loan bikes, chasing up the issue and eventually providing a refund, if it wasn't for them I'd probably have given up.

[@thetogtube2]

Holding out for a DJI motor with Pinion internal gears and belt drive on a Santa Cruz or Specialized 🎉🎉🎉

[@N000-reply]

They need to start selling Spare parts/ service kits. Though they are good they go wrong quickly without maintenance

[@stuka78]

@@N000-reply as long as you don’t power wash the motor in the critical areas of bearings, for instance a Yamaha motor is sold maintenance-free

[@robhaskins3068]

2018 Brose (upgraded and sealed)x 3 plus a brand new spare motor,2020 brose👎 E8000+ a spare, TQ x1, and Just had to buy a DJI AVINOX AMFLOW because of the super technology and beautiful power. But the 2018 aluminium brose 1.3 is magnificent. Quiet ,smooth, powerful. What did brose know in 2018 that they don't know now.. E=mtb² or is the Amflow E =mtb³

[@perspectivedetective2703]

And the biggest casualty of this battle is the consumer.

[@kalinivanov10]

After many Bosch and Brose,now I’m happy with Bafang BBSHD

[@AleksandarGospic]

I have 2019 Scott Genius with Shimano E8000 and I've done more than 15500 kilometers by now, not a single problem, zero. Wish I could buy some of the new bikes but I don't have money right now. If I had it would be so hard to choose

[@Mtb9r]

The good ol work horse EP8. Left out. Ain’t the fastest overrun sucks but it keeps chugging along. 🎉

[@martintramuntbikemallorcak481]

Built my own 1 off eMTB... so, Bafang M510 for me.... and imo, best eMTB i've ever ridden! haha!! (biased ofcourse) - currently revamping this build to fully electronic (wheeltop) etc.. new Suntour durolux 38 forks, and a cheap chinese rear spring shock... (Magura MT5 brakes with 203 MDR-P discs) isn't BAFANG the biggest producer in the world??? no mention? (obviously means your not getting any freebies or paid by Bafang then..) haha... truth is the truth..

[@Certago]

They never mention Bafang, I'm riding one as well and 5400 miles in its doing great.

[@stephenjackson5431]

Bafang was mentioned and they even showed Steve at their facility , you must have missed the one where he watched them submerge the motor in the test facility.

[@lukmxtr9604]

Would you choose Amflow bike with DJI Avinox motor over any bike with Bosch CX gen5 ?

[@SuperSlant]

Please tell me what kind of bike is this with a Polini engine at 7:04?

[@crt269]

Agree with regards to gears, 11 speed is high enough.

[@a2blimitless370]

didnt really tell me the differences between them and why which ones are leading over others

[@noControl556]

I could live with 8 gears, never really get going fast enough on a long smooth decent to use the top gear, I do sometimes use 1st gear on a really steep hill, but could probably make 1st a 50, and range it down from there with bigger gaps in between. Would be nice to have a thicker chain and longer wearing cogs.

[@stuka78]

@@noControl556 for the chain/cogs issue, check new motion labs products

[@aphtonyjim]

Oh and Rocky Mountain are in trouble, you probably didn't know this at the time of filming....shame 😕 but no one sells then anywhere near me, which is probably to there detriment.....just don't see them out there. Oh and I believe they're pretty pricey to boot.

[@heywood165]

Had my Altitude Powerplay for 2 years and no serious problems. I don’t know what will happen for spares if they don’t solve their bankruptcy issues, most things are replaceable, but 2 or 3 small parts that wear could cause my bike to end up as unusable because they’re proprietary parts.

[@chrispederson4157]

⁠@@heywood165What parts are you taking about. I just got one and love it.

[@heywood165]

@@chrispederson4157 Mainly the Spider Clutch (freewheel that attaches to the crank arm), which seems to wear the fastest and the battery (currently €1000 to buy a replacement).

[@shaunmarston7168]

We need more dealers for the motors it’s ok buying them but at least Bosch and some others will sort them some it’s a nightmare to get the mended

[@guyvishnu]

Unfortunately very few of these seem to be available in the US.

[@islandaerial3414]

Same issue here in Canazuela

[@Dangit-Dangit]

That's surprising. The US seems to have everything first.

[@dado304]

No need to have 12 gears in Pinion with motor. For ebike is enough 8 speed. Of course to save 500% gear range. In the time it was introduced, I was thinking, why engineers even bother with 12 speed version. They could have done it only 9 speed and would save some space and weight.

[@porroco]

Shimano is the worst motor, cant find parts or motor in amazon.

[@alexerioeduardo2844]

Standards!

[@chivolavale4094]

Bosch gen 4

[@Yogi5D]

Moving forward, any motor that does not include the gearbox in a unit like Pinion is dead in the water. I could not imagine buying an e-bike in the future that does not have that.

[@ollimustonen]

It depends. If I can buy traditional emtb for 4k€ but have to chuck 7k€ for gearbox motor there's no way I'm paying that much more just for that. Maintaining drivetrain isn't that big of a hassle.

[@kingerz]

Two Yamaha motors in Giants.

[@siriosstar4789]

Sooo many great motors . can't ride them all so ,how to choose ? One interesting note about ZF is they were one of the early partners with Sachs when it first came out . Sams bikes tried to get a NOX bike from austria to review but was never sent one . Now he is still waiting to review the ZF , but still no bike . could it be that ZF doesn't want a bunch of reviews done on their bikes ? as to the Sachs , the down side is it is a bit cadence driven which is not good for quick changing of gears on technical rides ., however i've had that motor for 7 years now and still love it but i only cruise around town and on forest roads so the cadence thing is a non issue for me . the low cadence at full power on hills is incredible . my legs are barely moving but the bike is flying up the hills .

[@markdove5930]

12 gears are too much and they will slow you down just because its too much shifting. Just keep it at 5 like the assists

[@brianbathgate4944]

On my 2nd Levo and 4th motor. The bikes are brilliant when they work, but afraid that’s a bit WHEN, their reliability is shit.

[@kevinburke6743]

You forgot efficiency & warranty. No to mention gear ratio range & human input levels zero to x%

[@Kamil_D.]

I do not know about other manufacturers, but I bough my wife a ebike with Bosch 4 gen CX. Unfortunatelly that motor is not serviceable by me, just by some sort of "authorized service centers". So anything like adding a light you have to go there wait a week or two, pay extortion money to some kind of apprentice. Will never buy a Bosch crap again

[@atlasbandit]

I have the Bosch CX Gen.4, next will be a belt bike for sure (Pinion MGU). In my eyes all new chain ebikes are dead on arrival now.

[@zizusaid]

MGU...

[@pjewk]

Amflow Dji Avinox is my pick, if not the next Turbo Levo would have an equal motor with remotes/display and price 7k with carbon frame!

[@barryholt3526]

I'd like the new levo to have the DJI motor and fit a slammed 210mm dropper from S2 and above. And they need to offer the alloy in the higher spec models.

[@Campingkayakride]

After seeing an interview with specialised . I would never buy one. There attitude is your the rider and we are the controller. We say what you want. No thanks. There future is control. They recently brought the local bike shop. Then closed it down. As soon as I heard about it I said it’s the end for this place.

[@TheRicardoSanchez]

Stop it. The ONLY thing that matters is reliability and fixability. That’s it. It’s the ONE FACTOR that is standing in the way of ebikes completely taking over. Unreliable motors is the big antagonist. Make the motors indestructible and we can start talking about which is superior. I would buy a significantly inferior performer if it was bulletproof. Reliability and fixability are all that matters.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

12 speed makes sense on an ebike. Didnt like it on my mtb.

[@ollimustonen]

Definitely don't need 12 gears. I have SRAM 12S drivetrain but I'm pretty sure I have never used gears 1-2 and 12. I'm almost 100% sure of that...

[@carstenreeder8634]

Watch our video! We answere the question who is the leading motor. After 13 minutes. There is no leader. Great. Time well spent.

[@Sug_ref]

Dyname 4.0 is king...

[@Holloweve]

It’s the king ? Wow ok. What’s the things it leads on ? Havnt heard of it

[@afoolishman12]

Until dji came along it had a huge power advantage. And it had very little drag. And since it isn’t attached to the cranks if it dies or jams you still have a functional bike if you reroute the chain.

[@Holloweve]

@@afoolishman12 oh. Ok not king then. Different and not comparable. Thanks

[@jt_mtb1]

Shimano ep801 is not good i have moterra sl1 and is been in the shop more them what i ride it to many issues disappointing of shimano

[@EnriqueNestorAEseo]

BOSCH is germany ...SHIMANO is japan...BAFANG is copy ..other model Panasonic Japan..BROSE germany

[@darrenford8988]

Bafang is the best at tuning, easy to service, readily available parts and cost effective motors and batteries, all the rest just want to rip you off.