【ENG SUB】Mairne’s struggle learning English

【Houshou Marine】
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[@mortified0]

I'm glad Senchou is talking with the EN group, everybody there loves her and I'm sure talking with them will help her English skills.

[@moores4415]

@@Madhattersinjeans i mean tbf Kiara has many experiences in learning languages, if she has a point sure it's based on her experience.

[@carrotvirus349]

Marine is lost in the english language. My fellow overseas sexy guys, Its time......

[@RambleOn07]

We do owe her for pretending that we are sexy lol

[@aleprechaun8972]

Cirno is strong with this comment!

[@gazelle4204]

Ngl if Senchou streams herself studying english seriously, i'd probably tune in while doing my own studies

[@SteadFast411]

Same, but to be honest I think she's implying she'd feel compelled to make it more interesting (as in, more her usual style of streaming) and that alone already counteracts the concept of studying seriously. So, it's more her own ability to focus than the worry that we'd be bored of it. No matter what choice she makes, I'm glad she's throwing herself at this, it seems to be what she wants to do to advance even further.

[@tristan889]

One funny alternative, is to grow up with English Media, games and movies. As a non native English speaker, I'd say I was lucky to be able to grow up with understanding the English language. Wish some of the idols had experienced too. Suisei maybe?

[@ameame32]

Suisei probably had but got annoyed coz of her reactions to her mom's roasting lmao

[@milkcreamsweetsweetpig1352]

Facts. I grew up watching cartoons and movies in english, main reasons why I'm even able to speak it.

[@AngryJones]

Same, all my english is not from my school lessons. I just learned by myself playing video games, watching movies always in their native language and listening american bands. But this is just because i grow up in a time where dubs are not commom, now everything have dubs in their own language and that makes it difficult to learn other languages.

[@clusterpingo3933]

@@ameame32 ah shit I think I did a similar thing to my younger brother when we were kids :(

[@taranchura2061]

i learned english and japanese from watching film

[@vvevvlord12]

Marine being considerate of others as always, love her

[@rwp0079]

I've learned more Japanese from watching Hololive since last August than from over 20 years of watching anime so I suggest she find herself english streamers/vtubers to watch. I guess there is something about genuine conversation vs scripted dialogue that just makes it easier to pick up, I dunno.

[@kagayori6780]

That's not going to be easy unless there are a lot of clips and translations to be able to relate and just an opinion but there should be a lot of other clips to be able to experience the culture in order to feel learning English is easy and fun. Best bet is to watch movies and shows with subtitles but those won't cover basics like elements that composes a sentence. I've just watched "Problems of English Education in Japan" and then recently Coco's clip about the English proficiency test. She's somewhat right. The test is so boring I can try to get more than half right but there's no soul in the test as if it is just made to annoy test takers with hard words.

[@TheDorianTube]

Same. I can even catch some Kanji/Hiragana now LOL (veeeeeeery few and only if related to Hololive names and stuff like that ofc hahaha). All thanks to Hololive. It was kinda of a shock at first, not gonna lie. You can understand 30/50% of what happens in anime, but when you approach actual JPN girls/guys streaming....5%?10%?. Damn the difference is huge.

[@willsander6178]

there's also a lot of untranslated content and more repetitive/natural speech when you watch a streamer. scripted entertainment media in general is kinda rough for learning... when you watch american media* most every word is planned out ahead of time, in part due to limited time to convey the story and in part for dramatics/entertainment -- i imagine it's the same for japan, from what i've heard online. *not news or live programs, although some content producers definetly do similiar things with their english also i've heard english, taught in japan, struggles because of an overly indepth study of the language instead of a focus on useful and acceptable speech. that and a desire to not mess up, which can make language acquistion much harder.

[@kagayori6780]

@@willsander6178 I am in favor in technicalities when it comes to English but the basics and being able to smoothly express your message comes first because that's how people can get creative even if in writing only at first. Technicality will be disadvantageous in a composition writing about a specific subject or genre and just focusing on whatever the writer feels or want to talk about freely.

[@willsander6178]

@@kagayori6780 eh... english is spoken as a lingua franca in today's age -- so much so that it has more secondary speakers than primary speakers. it's one thing to expect someone to write and be able to read english at such a high level for their own amusement and understanding, another to ask it of our enormous language community. i don't think japanese students should be looking to understand english through a technical lense until they're comfortable speaking with an english person at a basic level. i do however have a respect for good, meaningful, artistic language; i studied latin for four years and that can be absoloutly insane when it comes to it's intricacies and meanings. here's a quick picture of what a fully declined verb in latin looks like: imgur.com/a/PpxRH9Y here's also a wikipedia page detailing many of the grammatical removals currently happening in ELF (english lingua franca): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_a_lingua_franca i'm fine with there being multiple versions of english, as well as acceptable versions of english which disregard many of our rules.

[@TheDorianTube]

The problem with Kiara's advice is that this works only with Westerners. Our alphabet is the same (for most countries anyway), we have very veeeeery similar sentence structures as well. For example, in my country, there's a joke that goes ''To speak English, you just need to add -tion -es -s at the end of our usual words and you're done'' lol. Like many, I learned how to speak without even trying. Full passive learning through cartoons, video games and chatting. Asians can't do that (That's also why you can't learn Japanese with anime). Their languages are way too different to just rely on Kiara's advice alone.

[@maziodyne3401]

I saw past Kiara's interview in journal, where she says that she learned Japanese in one year by talking to her viewers in her previous streaming life - that's what she meant by learning through communication.

[@einstein951]

I'm guessing your first language is a Romance language?

[@GongTheHawkeye]

Of course you can. Lots of people learned Japanese through input and is the most effective way to learn a language. You don't even need to go far to find an example. In Hololive, we have Kiara, Iofi and Anya. I'm also an Asian with a native language extremely different from English, and I learned just fine. You should google "Stephen Krashen: Comprehensible Input."

[@goku_dunker_420]

@@GongTheHawkeye Wouldn't someone need to learn the alphabet first?

[@GongTheHawkeye]

@@goku_dunker_420 If your goal is to also be able to read, of course. But you can technically speak Japanese or any language without learning the writing system. I wouldn't recommend that of course, learning to read is pretty important, but some people choose to do so. If I remember correctly, Iofi learned by listening first, and then only learned the Japanese writing system later on.

[@Serapae]

Thing is, lessons are never useless but if you want to use it to communicate you will have to, well, use it. I think this is what Kiara wanted to convey. Just studying won't make you magically able to use it. This is the case for my country's mandatory English curriculum. We learn English from grade 1-12 in most schools but only around 10% of the kids are able to use it properly.

[@wilhelmscreen80]

It depends on what kind of lessons and control system you use. In my school the teacher made us read and retell stories in English, then answer random questions about events and characters. They were so long it was impossible to memorize them word for word, and it was impossible to prepare answers for the questions so you had to master forming grammatically correct sentences to convey random meanings. It takes a massive effort at first when you don't have a good grasp on grammar and syntax and you vocabulary is poor. After painstakingly translating a story with a dictionary we were compelled to tape ourselves during retelling at home, listen to the recording, write down our version of the text to check it's grammar and syntax, fix them, then do it again a few more times. Since the original text was long, 15-20 pages, you encountered all basic grammatical and syntactic structures many times and have to reproduce them over and over again for different situations. And everyone had a different story so no taking advantage of someone else's digest. We were also forced to keep track of personal vocabulary via Excel sheets, grouping words by similar and opposite meaning, with synonyms, antonyms and multiple common examples of their use in sentences. The latter really hammers home not just the words themselves but whole phrases that often feature them. The semantic grouping helps you quickly recall an alternative for a word you happened to forget. The vocabulary could be retrieved and tested in a randomized fashion. We had to print and run down the sheets every day to keep it fresh, I did it before sleep. Once you reviewed the same word for a few weeks every day, you are going to memorize it and move on from it. This way you can grow the vocabulary to thousands of words in a few months by adding 10-15 words every day, but only review a couple hundred on any given day.

[@Nyukes]

I forced myself to learn english in like 3 months because I wanted to read the english sub hololive videos, back then there was no sub channel in my language so that motivated me to learn. I still suck at writting but at least I can read lol

[@xllvr]

You're pretty good already

[@Nyukes]

@@xllvr Thank u ^^

[@CarloxGamer]

Same here lol

[@kunal1957]

That's dedication lol

[@moores4415]

Bro your english is even better than me who have learning english for 3 years lmao, i think you have the aptitude.

[@OfficiallyOff]

Im rooting for her with the overseas bros! And im proud for her learning english, our senchou couldnt be more wholesome than she is right now.

[@firzy1833]

She's need our support, kaigai niki!

[@xenon_jv]

regardless Marine's English has improved a lot from just a year ago.

[@rizkyarv]

I don't know why kiara said taking lessons is useless. it is not, especially when you don't know where to start. learning new languages without guidance is difficult. it is true that communication will speed up the progress, but you need to have the foundation first.

[@xllvr]

Kiara had the benefit of being able to learn very naturally and might've had a bad impression of lessons buy she forgets how difficult it would be for someone without a vaguely European language base to learn English. Like Senchou said, she's not a teacher so she doesn't quite understand the need

[@goku_dunker_420]

@@xllvr Yeah I saw how Kiara learned Japanese in 5 months, and it was in a very specific way that most people can't do.

[@plusj_]

@@goku_dunker_420 5 months? where did she say that?

[@goku_dunker_420]

@@plusj_ kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKXCoJSip5uojrM

[@xllvr]

@@goku_dunker_420 It's probably better if you gave a heads up that that's not "Takanashi Kiara"

[@noraiou]

They really hardworking at learning English.. That's inspired me to keep learning somehow

[@Yasviele]

I started learning English because I wanted to sell an item in an online game lol the first thing I learned was "want to buy/sell?" And "too much"

[@VocaloiidClips]

I can understand. Lessons for a completely different writing system are ass unless you're extremely dedicated. Otherwise only living in the country can you truly learn great communication

[@ChronosLawliet123]

Yeah, but at least the English alphabet is waaaay more simple than the Japanese writing system. Then again, English is super inconsistent with pronunciation, and I think that's the most difficult thing to learn. When you study English, you have to get used to it not making sense at all.

[@LordZero666]

Learning through communication ? That's useless. If your level is too low, you CAN'T get anything from just listening to another language. You can't even tell where a word stars and another one begins in a sentence. You first need formal classes to learn the basics and once you have those down pat, it's possible to try and talk a little ONCE YOU KNOW HOW. Some people are gifted and can just "go with the flow" but that's not everyone.

[@SuviTuuliAllan]

What do you mean by "go with the flow"?

[@xllvr]

Agreed. You need some basis before these more intermediate/advanced learning styles. If your foundation is too shaky everything above will just come collapsing down at some point

[@giannanana9812]

ahhhh i keep forgetting marine is a huge Marvel fan !! it would be a good reference to watch them in English since she already knows what’s going to happen in the movies. I’m really glad she enjoys Marvel

[@marinner0694]

Actually Calli might be able to help her, she has done several english learning streams for her JP viewers and know how to explain herself.

[@captsomeguy1]

Calli's also super busy and have like 3 jobs. Even if she does have time, there's only so much you can learn from one person. If she really wants to learn, she needs to be immersed in it 24/7.

[@DreamChasersInc]

Often times, I've found that even the best lessons from the best teachers won't do squat if the student doesn't have an overarching goal driving them to keep study. For self study to work, there has to be something constantly driving them to learn, to improve, to push through the grind that comes with any form of study y where they want to go. Without it, they don't have much of a reason to learn, and left with not much point to their studies. It's something I think I need to remember now and then, as well, when my own studies start to lose momentum

[@joy_gantic]

Mairne

[@Graestra]

Lessons are good for structure. Learning on your own can be really overwhelming. Plus a good personal tutor can be quite effective if they know what they’re doing since they can tailor their approach to the student and can help correct mistakes, provide feedback on progress, and choose what she should be learning

[@szacsesz]

Senchou has an unexpected serious side to her so it can't be helped. We can only cheer her on!

[@fujiakishion5884]

fyi learning something for someone in middle age is harder than you teenager.

[@sekaihunter9378]

Damn, this guy just burn Marine's ship in 2 minutes

[@milkcreamsweetsweetpig1352]

Shots fired

[@theinformant74]

What are you talking about? Senchou is 17.

[@SmolCanary]

@@theinformant74 Season 2.

[@model40248]

Good thing Senchou is still a teenager

[@Eresh69]

One day her English will be inacredible. I believe in Senchou

[@keyysm1739]

I think English Lessons are just a sort of fundamental? They're just there but definitely, communicating with other people is the way to go. You learn so many things, and just loving any kind of english media helps as well.

[@ChronosLawliet123]

A very effective way to learn English in my opinion, is watching a series you like, but in English. Senchou's favourite anime is Hunter X Hunter, so probably it'd be good if she watches the English dub. Watching Hollywood movies isn't so effective in my opinion, because they are hard to listen to.

[@Graestra]

She also a huge voice actor otaku though, so I think she would have a hard time watching series that she likes with actors that are different from the ones she likes. Heck she complained about a couple of the new VAs that were in the 2011 version of HxH because she liked the originals much more.

[@Odontomango]

Someone need to send her a superchat and tell her to start playing video game in English version as well. All my mutual friends who became fluence in English are all from playing video games. I know a lot of streamers who learn English through video game as well. Guy that told her to start watching Marvel movie in English is a great start though.

[@goleogthais]

Just like with everything, it REALLY depends on each individual person. Some people say trying to learn japanese from anime is useless, while for other it was a great starting point for learning basic stuff (like me), especially since most anime is just simple entertainment, it's not like watching some science documentary or deep philosophy or anything. Kiara has mentioned before that she learned JP from talking with friends, and maybe she's just naturally talented at learning other languages, but for a monolingual like Senchou to learn a totally different language, she's gonna need a lot of help with the basics, and lessons can _help_ with that. But that's the thing: _help_ . To learn anything, not even talking about mastering it, just for practical use, you have to put in your own effort, you have to be proactive. It's why many japanese ppl don't really learn english despite the fact that it's in school for a long time: it's just another subject that they need to pass and then forget about it - but of course, if youre gonna be working in some kind of field that involves foreign relations, you'll most likely need to know some basic english. Not that Senchou will ever see this, but she _should_ start taking lessons, practice basic sentences with Kiara/Calli whenever it's possible, and then see if the lessons are helping or not.

[@goku_dunker_420]

In Kiaras past channel, she said that she learned Japanese in a few months by streaming on Nico Nico, putting whst everyone said in chat into google translste, and somehow instantly memorizing it (probably from being pressured due to being on stream)

[@goleogthais]

@@goku_dunker_420 link?

[@goku_dunker_420]

@@goleogthais kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKXCoJSip5uojrM

[@howareyoumoreofaclownthanme]

Now that I think about it maybe Marine should talk to Choco! Not only is she good at teaching, she could understand Elite English and get the right sentence. I'd love to see Choco-Coco-Marine English time.

[@Arcterion]

Ah yes, one of my favorite Hololive members: Mairne. :P

[@areyn3044]

tbf Kiara is right, i learned english just through Media and all meanwhile struggling to take english class, then a year pass i somewhat grasped how it works and worked on vocabularies

[@tarodeculture]

Maybe a way that Marine can try to learn English is to find her favorite anime where she knows the dialogue by heart, and then watch the English dub of it.

[@KeenxLimit]

God dangit Kiaraaaaaaaaaaa

[@Tomixx1199]

she just needs to do like one stream a week where she tries to do only English and she would start to pick up more things.

[@Cat_Sidhe]

While learning Japanese (I'm still a super beginner) I've realized that it's pretty similar to English in the sense that English has some absurd homophones and Japanese has a TON of homophones. I imagine the toughest part for learning English when Japanese is your first language is the pronunciations of everything

[@goku_dunker_420]

Yo, for Japanese did you learn the alphabet(s) first or just jump straight into the words?

[@Cat_Sidhe]

@@goku_dunker_420 I learned hiragana and katakana. Now I'm using Wanikani to learn kanji. I also have Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Grammar.

[@silaspaschoal1439]

Learned english through youtube

[@aleprechaun8972]

Welp, that English can be more or less sloppy. Remember that...

[@silaspaschoal1439]

@@aleprechaun8972 lmao fix it

[@aleprechaun8972]

@@silaspaschoal1439 Fix your English, or...?

[@PixxxelWizard]

I think if Korone could collab with Calli then Senchou could as well.

[@aleprechaun8972]

I simply watch anime and read a bit to learn Spanish, jeje...

[@lostdestroyer8400]

marine

[@certainaccount7940]

:000

[@CentauriTT]

Well she isn't inclined to learn English imo, I can imagine it's pretty hard to learn a language that's so different from Japanese. How can you explain things like there/their or accept/except. Or when to use commas to prevent run on sentences.

[@SuviTuuliAllan]

You mean things that even native speakers suck at? Willem Dafoe didn't invent the language so that we could grammar police each other. As a speaker of Finnish, a language known for its simple grammar, I find that English and Japanese are somewhat similar. Why couldn't the English-speaking world switch to using katakana or something? If I have to use the Latin alphabet, it only seems fair that they be forced to use something else. It could have been worse, I suppose. I'd like to pray for my Uralic cousins who must deal with Cyrillic.

[@CentauriTT]

@@SuviTuuliAllan Bro, your paragraph came outta left field. Was just saying what I thought as I had trouble learning these things. I came to the U.S at 7 from the Philippines and mainly only spoke Tagalog. My English was ok since I watched cartoons like Chalk Zone, Dora, and Power Puff Girls. Still I had to be put in ESL classes for my first two years of elementary school, as I sucked at grammar and occasionally had trouble finding the right English word to describe something. That's all, I had no intention to police anyone's grammar. Jacksfilms already kinda did that with YGS back in the day.

[@titankingz60]

@@CentauriTT im pretty sure we all had that problem with their/there and accept/except in a young age even for native speakers. You just end up remembering the differences

[@CentauriTT]

@@titankingz60 For an ESL kid like me for some reason where I went to school they MADE me remember it. I would have to read passages over and over and then tell the ESL teacher what instance to use there/their or other words. Same day same passages. For 20 minutes I would be pulled outta class for ESL learning. I was in 2nd grade. Bro I still had trouble telling the difference between straight and slanted lines. Still remember my mom yelling at me for not knowing.

[@pfune3811]

Kiara has been giving that advice for a while now, while in very special cases it works it is mostly because you start at a very young age. Learn a languaje by communication is the most useless advice i have ever heard. I can't speak english for shit but i can write and watch a full movie understanding everything.

[@High2Lows]

well maybe if you actually tried communicating you would be able to lmao

[@OpXarxa]

It's not entirely wrong that language lessons are mostly useless. They are a good support as a secondary form of learning, but they don't really work as a primary, the lessons just don't stick. She'd actually get much more out of messaging the EN girls trying to make english conversation.

[@wolfdemn]

it doesn't make sense to drop english lessons for using english whenever you can if she can't even speak basic english

[@clusterpingo3933]

Does Marine not know of Duolingo? It's half learning tool and half mobile game, and those duolingo streams usually attract the respective language's native speakers.

[@aleprechaun8972]

Eh, maybe not. Anyways, Duolingo is good for keeping your language sharp, but isn't that good for actually learning languages.