Electric Vehicle to Grid Technology Explained

If Vehicle-to-Grid technology is so amazing, then why isn't anyone using it yet?
Today we visit Bjorn Sturmberg, a vehicle-to-grid researcher at the Australian National University to ask all my questions about V2G and why it's not a thing yet.
Kickstarter link for Bjorn's book Amy's Balancing Act
kck.st/3qBJjwU
If you would like to help develop the Engineering with Rosie channel, you could consider joining the Patreon community, where there is a chat community about topics covered in the videos and suggestions for future videos and production quality improvements. / engineeringwithrosie
Bookmarks:
00:00 Intro
01:03 How does V2G work?
01:52 Intertia in the electricity system
02:24 Cumulative storage of millions of EVs is huge
04:13 Q1 - Will V2G shorten battery life?
05:50 Q2 - Will we need to upgrade our grid?
08:08 Q3 - Will V2G leave my battery empty?
10:36 Q4 - Why aren't we taking advantage of V2G now?
14:29 Q5 - What will V2G business models look like?
16:10 Summary and Bjorn's energy transition kids' book h
17:30 Bonus blooper
Extra reading:
On battery degradation from V2G
www.researchgate.net/publicat...
What can 6,000 electric vehicles tell us about EV battery health?
www.geotab.com/blog/ev-batter...
A-Z of V2G - a summary of basically every V2G trial around the world
arena.gov.au/assets/2021/01/r...
V2G Around the World
www.v2g-hub.com/
Sources:
Coal and nuclear power plants animations:Tennessee Valley Authority, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
World map: mapchart.net/world.html
Power lines down: Arlington County, CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
AMEC Issues Paper Frequency control frameworks review www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default...
WattClarity images (supply and demand charts of Australian National Electricity Market):
wattclarity.com.au/articles/2...
wattclarity.com.au/articles/2...
#technology #engineering #stem
Thanks for watching the video "Electric Vehicle to Grid"

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

For a more detailed explanation of how vehicle-to-grid works, including some nice analogies to describe grid frequency and inertia check out the video we made for the ANU TV channel here kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3iVpq1riNqMoMk And the Kickstarter link for Bjorn's book Amy's Balancing Act: kck.st/3qBJjwU

[@hitreset0291]

To explain why v2g is not widely adopted now? Follow the money.

[@hitreset0291]

The conversation needs to shift from v2g to v2h (vehicle to home)

[@Conservator.]

I found the whole video very confusing 16:48 Nah, just kidding! 😜

[@latemnetlom]

Fun and informative as usual Rosie! A few quick points: 1) Your guest is partially correct that power (C rate relative to the battery's C rating) during charge and discharge is somewhat related to battery degradation. But so too is time spent at high voltage, i.e. high state of charge (SOC). If a V2G scheme holds your car at a higher SOC than you would ordinarily do, it's degrading your pack prematurely relative to just staying away from high SOC, which smart EV owners are already doing. They charge to full just before they leave on a long trip, and stay away from high SOC the rest of the time. 2) All battery cycling causes degradation too. You can waffle and say that it doesn't cause enough degradation to worry about, and you might be right- but that depends on points like 1) above plus on how often you do it and the C rate you do it at, and what fraction of full pack charge you use each time. 3) Installing 50-150 kW fast chargers just to do V2G ain't gonna happen- it would be too costly. So you're talking about perhaps Level 2 (3-7 kW) connections. At those power levels, and assuming that the events you're trying to protect against on the grid really are only 15 minutes in maximum duration, you're really not talking about the batteries having much energy capacity. 19 million cars x 6 kW is an absolute sh*tload of power, either as demand response (charging which starts or stops when the grid system operator wants it to) or as a virtual power plant- 114 GW! But if it only goes on for 1/4 hour worst case, it's a much more modest 28.5 GWh of energy available. Also a small fraction of a typical car's battery capacity being used- 1.5 kWh per car, or perhaps 5% of the charge in a 60 kWh pack in a worst case event. Doing 5% cycling on a battery pack a dozen or two times per year is really not something I'd be worried about as a car owner- I wouldn't be too worried about how much that was damaging my pack. I also wouldn't be too worried about who made the revenue from what could be a small number of very high value kWh. Do that DAILY however and I would be concerned! I'd want money for that, for sure. In summary, I agree that V2G and even moreso- opportunity charging, i.e. charging automatic start/stop based on the needs of the grid operator- is exciting and interesting. And having the ability to provide emergency response from all those EV batteries? Priceless. I had that possibility in the back of my mind when designing my car conversion project back in 2014- it meant I could run my house's critical systems for days during a prolonged power outage just on my car's battery. Making that "official" by demanding that capability be installed in all new OEM EVs makes a lot of sense to me. It's just the grid connection for cars to supply energy to the broader grid that needs a bit more thought.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Great points, thanks for adding this extra detail! I am sure I will be making more videos on v2g as it becomes more prevalent. I know that related to (1) - when I test drove a Nissan Leaf I was told it was smart enough to not charge the battery to 100% unless you told it to (because e.g. you knew you needed full range the next day) and (3) - the cars in this trial are paid for their service. I definitely think that money needs to flow to the car owner, otherwise even a small reduction in battery life due to (2), the cost of a 2-way charger or even just perceived risk/ inconvenience will mean no car owners want to do it.

[@WeBeGood06]

All valid points, slow drain and fill cycles in the optimal battery range for longevity, would get the Solar Home from Sunset to Sunrise. Or, allow Daily Power Arbitrage to pay for battery usage. Buy at high noon when solar power is cheap $, Sell evening when home usage peaks and power is expensive $$.

[@bknesheim]

@@EngineeringwithRosie I do belive that the only real use of V2G in the next 10-15 years will be to the very local grid in your own house. This is something many EV owners would even pay extra to have.

[@crowguy506]

The Leaf II comes with vtg capability on default. It’s even been promoted that way and certified as a power plant in some countries. However Nissan removed the 80% charge limiting software in the Leaf I after a certain year and kept it at least until 2019, maybe until now, because otherwise they wouldn’t be allowed to advertise it with its full capacity in the U.S.. It was sold as a new higher range back then. My 2018 leaf has nothing to prevent it from full charging. If the charger isn’t smart enough to do it, I have to program charging time like an old VCR, which of course never hits exactly 80%.

[@redshift3]

1) A V2G scheme should not hold your car at a higher SOC than you want? V2G only uses a little energy for each discharge event so SOC is not paramount. Also lower SOC allows V2G to offer charging service to the grid (for high grid frequency events and excess renewable generation) as well as discharging services (for low grid frequency events and low generation margin). 2) C rate limits (for charge and discharge) should be managed in the negotiation protocol between the EV and the V2G charger. 3) 15 minutes of ultra fast frequency response at 114GW would be immensely valuable to a grid operator. As grid operators typically only want 1 or 2 GW of backup then the 28.5GWh resource you describe can be stretched over many hours.

[@AlexPacker]

This one is a source of endless frustration for me too! I have a huge battery sat on my drive doing nothing the whole time I'm at home. It might be worth mentioning that current V2G technology is only supported by the Japanese Chademo connector standard. Most manufacturers have instead adopted the CCS charging standard outside of Japan and China, which unfortunately doesn't support two way power transfer. Therefore most electric cars do not support V2G with the notable exception of the Nissan Leaf and a few others from Japanese manufacturers. Meanwhile I'm drawing fossil fuel power from the grid to run my oven at peak time!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

This trial uses Nissan Leafs ("Leaves"?!?). That is an interesting point though, that seems like it might be a hurdle that needs to be jumped before we can get really mainstream V2G. Maybe a good topic for a future video 😀

[@timryan4209]

CCS2 and ISO 15118 support V2H/G Tesla also is an absolute recalcitrant on V2X as they ban third party use of the battery. It widely suspected that they are holding out to launch a whole ecosystem with Solar Roof, PowerWall and Tesla EVs. All the OEMs are making V2X (with a few variations eg Hyundai is V2L only atm) a pathway.

[@Richardincancale]

Hi - I wonder if part of the problem isn’t the structure of the electricity industry? Many countries had vertically integrated utilities incorporating generation, transmission, distribution, metering, retail… In these environments they could take a wholistic view and decide to implement V2G, home batteries or whatever. With the privatisations of the industry in the 1980s (or since always in some countries) the industry is fragmented into parts that have no interest or incentive to cooperate. That means only regulators and governments can drive this - which is only rarely good news!

[@AlexPacker]

@@Richardincancale Hey, I disagree slightly. I do think this is of great interest to utilities companies, private or public. It allows them to access great flexibility and cut costs without having to implement much infrastructure at all. But they're certainly way behind on the "smart grid" technologies necessary for this to work. Currently even those with home batteries can normally only use the power within their own home and not export to the grid, at least not in a "smart" way. More investment is needed in both hardware and software to make this work. By comparison, a large battery storage investment probably looks safer and more conventional, despite the vast storage potential of millions of EV batteries.

[@Richardincancale]

@@AlexPacker Hi Alex - as Deep Throat said - follow the money. Which of the complex web of companies is going to want to invest in building the system and paying the compensation to vehicle owners in exchange for this? In the UK for example the Grid operator has to buy capacity with different responsiveness (base load to spinning reserve) from a variety of generators, based on forecast 30 minute demand, to meet requirements from distribution companies. The distribution network might require some adaptations and that’s another company (DNO) who charge transport fees to distribution companies. Where vertically integrated utilities still exist it’s clear this could benefit them.

[@kerilloyd7504]

Thanks Rosie, great video. I’m on a V2G trial with my Nissan Leaf in the UK. It’s been going for a month now and so far so good. I haven’t had an electricity bill yet so I’m not sure how it’s working with price compared to what i used to pay. To make matters more interesting I also have a PV array which is also feeding into the grid and I’m also on a flexible tariff in the UK called Agile Octopus so it’s difficult to get a grasp of the sum of it all but I’m sure it will all even out in the long run. So long as I’m not massively out of pocket and the trial is a success then I’ll be really proud to have been part of the solution to grid balancing using renewables and EVs.

[@pjlecy1]

I really appreciate you talking about this subject. You did a great job , keep kicking ass.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks! I am looking forward to the day when I can get my own EV connected to my house and the grid, and then make a video about that!

[@mikeklein4949]

@@EngineeringwithRosie throughout I was imagining the application including residences, commercial structures… . There are grid sharing models to learn from.

[@gr8bkset-524]

Maybe I missed something, but it seems that V2G in this video is meant to soak up excess energy and give it back to the grid in times of need so fossil fuel peaker plants are not needed. I was picturing V2G to help replace non-renewable entirely so that no fossil fuel power plants would be needed. There is a study by RethinkX that says that we can have a fully renewable energy system if we have 3x-5x renewable generation and 1x battery. I think V2G from all EVs can help achieve this (instead of power companies having to purchase batteries themselves). Comment on this Rosie?

[@AliHSyed]

Fantastic topic and great reporting. Glad I found your channel Rosie. Cant wait for what else you have coming down the pipeline!

[@vremster]

Lots of good questions and information. Thank you for sharing all of it!

[@realvanman1]

It is a very logical idea. The way to make it work is first and foremost to properly incentivize EV owners, give them control over their level of desired participation, up to and including opting out entirely. Owners need to be able to select their degree of participation at each and every time they connect. If you’re recharging during a long trip, you’ll probably be willing to pay more for a fast, uninterrupted charge. If you’re car will be sitting at work or in the garage, you can simply tell it when you want it to be fully charged, and let it participate in frequency support along the way. The compensation needs to more than make up for the potentially longer charge times and, yes, the decreased battery life. Do not lie about that as otherwise this great idea will get a big black eye in the marketplace. Always be forthcoming. It is an inescapable fact that batteries have cycle lives, and while frequency support service will not significantly consume battery life on the whole, it would be dishonest to state that it has zero effect. I’ll bet that the manufacturers who are warrantying their cars’ batteries would agree.

[@TheNightwalker247]

There was a study that showed that shallow cycles can actually be beneficial for lithium ion batteries. Love the point on giving the power to the owner.

[@dagbruck]

I remember Sydkraft in Sweden looking at V2G in the late 1980’s. I think their focus was more on scheduled use of EV batteries, to compensate for daily variations in energy demand. That coupled with a guarantee to give back a fully charged car at 5pm when you need to go home.

[@zotter2542]

Well, let's not say full. Because that's the slow part. The fast charging part goes to around 80% and that's usually all you need.

[@zentouro]

this is such a helpful video rosie! i've bookmarked this link to share whenever anyone asks some of those questions!

[@Soordhin]

I was a pre-order customer for the new fully electric VW ID.3, and was able to take part in a prototype test drive. Which was in its own way interesting, but even more interesting was the huge and very open Q&A session with the development team and their management. V2G came up quite a lot actually, mainly asked and actually demanded by the customers, and VW being very cagey. They stated quite openly though that the main problem is not the technology, that can be sorted out (the CCS standard has not yet V2G but it is in the pipeline), but rather the multi-party business model needed for a read grid based system, and even for a much simpler V2H system (Vehicle to Home) there are questions like for example battery warranty, interaction with the car owners utility company and so on. It seemed they were really interested in that from a technical point of view, but were extremely unsure about any of the many questions around the business side of things. Of course V2G and V2H are very logical extensions of the BEV ecosystem, especially in conjunction with a photovoltaic system at home.

[@Psi-Storm]

The Sono Sion will get bidirectional charging over the 11kw typ 2 plug. So you can use it for v2h and possibly v2g if the electricity network providers together with the government can agree on a standart. VW has a subsidiary called Elli that is developing those systems too. Hyundai also announced a test for V2G, but I am not sure if they want to use ccs for it.

[@mikeklein4949]

Your holistic approach is absolutely essential! Thank you!

[@richardjackson8221]

Excellent info.. I had not considered V2G, nor did understand the advantages of V2G quick response times verses inertial power generation. Great job keeping it simple for the rest of us!

[@lonnymo]

This sounds really promising Rosie. Thanks for doing this video. Very interesting!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it and see the potential in V2G like I do 😀

[@wyldrushorchard1061]

Just noticed this video, thanks so much for answering why this isn't the fore most storage option. Like you I have shouted at many electricity storage videos, thinking the answer already exists V2G!! As an automotive engineer, I'm pleased to hear confirmed from people in the field that this is not a technical issue. IE Generators and vehicle OEM's need to find a way of working together.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

Mr apologise for not finding your video earlier. Rooftop solar PV systems would supply excess electricity daily. 20million vehicles and 20million buildings in Australia. A perfect balance of storage and generation for Australia. 20million buildings are connected to the national electric power grid.

[@SuperS05]

Very good presentation. Bjorn was great. "It's part of the charm" is a great blooper. You'll have to add it to a future blooper compilation. 😂

[@davidfellowes1628]

Brilliant presentation Rosie. Thanks

[@alexbourlier6996]

I love your channel! Topic suggestion: does nuclear energy has a part to play, or does renewables + storage are so fast to build, cheap and reliable than nuclear is now nothing else than a waste of time and resources? For instance Slovenian has just given the GO for the construction of a new nuclear power plant. Are they living in the past or is nuclear still needed for countries with little hydro resources? I hope it is not too specific a topic. I'd love to know the answer though. Once again, congratulations for your channel. Everything is right about it.

[@zen1647]

I think nuclear has a medium term role (10 to 50) years for some countries. It depends on renewable resource availability, the type of hydro storage, and demand patterns. Lots of northern latitude places (northern hemisphere) are short of daily renewable energy during winter - that's the only place I see for nuclear in that medium (10 - 50 year) time frame.

[@JG-mp5nb]

Nicely done, thanks for the explainer.

[@emmanuelborg8678]

Great work and interesting video. I'm a new subscriber.

[@fredochs]

A great explainer! Thanks, Rosie!!!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Glad it was helpful!

[@dasautogt]

Thanks Rosie. Love your videos, even understandable for a financial utility person like me.😁👍

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks! I am not really an expert on most of the topics I've been covering lately. So if I can get it explained to me in terms I can understand, I assume the level is pretty good for other non-experts! I am glad to see that assumption seems to be working out.

[@protectiongeek]

Another interesting video, thank you Rosie. The inertia of the power network generators is an important issue often overlooked by many commentators. The increasing penetration of renewables has tended to reduce the network inertia and this could become a concern if the level of penetration threatens to compromise network stability during faults. Power networks tend to operate with relatively high fault levels (corresponding to high inertia) in order to maintain high stability and reasonable power quality. This allows commercial and industrial customers with demanding loads such as large motors to work effectively without causing unacceptable amounts of disturbance to neighbouring customers. High fault levels also means that faults can be detected and disconnected quickly. Reducing system inertia can increase susceptibility to faults and having system inertia that is very low can risk widespread disturbance. I don't want to misrepresent what you said in the video about the relative inertial characteristics of large, centralised generation and distributed generation as proposed by V2G technology but it's definitely NOT the case that the relatively high inertia of large rotating machines is something to be regarded as undesirable or needing 'engineered out'. Like most solutions, there will be a role for generation sources that underpin system stability (big flywheels, if you like) and distributed sources that can help offset demand locally (small flywheels). The control systems for large rotating machines, coupled with the extremely fast fault clearance times required for the protective devices on transmission networks are very capable of dealing with network disturbances. In terms of V2G (or other distributed generation) responding to over-frequency (OF) or under-frequency (UF) events, clearly there **is** a role that can be played by these devices but I think there is a danger it could be over-played. The main hazard presented to the system is a severe UF event, usually initiated by the loss of one or more large generators due to failure of the genset itself or the circuit connecting it to the system. Thankfully these events are very rare (well, here in the UK they are very rare - I can't comment on other countries), however among the existing (UK) measures designed to respond to excessively low UF are low frequency demand disconnection (LFDD) devices that are (1) automatic, (2) distributed across the network and (3) essentially instantaneous with no programmed delay. Events triggering the operation of LFDD schemes couldn't be avoided by any amount of V2G implementation as the EV batteries and their charger/inverters would be likely to be disconnected as part of the process. National electricity network operators invariably have a statutory duty to do all they can to keep the system stable and operate within certain boundaries, hence the regulations that flow from this duty to ensure generators above a certain capacity are subject to central dispatch control. Having lots of potential energy stored in V2G installations is attractive but how could network operator planning and dispatch engineers incorporate any meaningful available capacity from a source that is, by design, capable of being connected and disconnected outside of their control? Over time, researchers and statisticians **may** be able to deduce that a certain percentage of V2G capacity is available at any given time of day, possibly following an availability curve. The question of whether the grid can accommodate large amounts of either EV charging or V2G installations is - like so many other videos dealing with this subject - dealt with at a 'macro' level, comparing the estimated total stored energy in V2G systems with overall network demand. Yes, smart charging would be necessary and I think EV manufacturers and vendors need to be more open by making it clear that the **availability** of charging at home **may** be restricted at certain times in any given 24-hour period due to the limitations of local low-voltage networks, rather than simply extolling the virtues of being able to export to 'the grid' as if it's as easy and repeatable as plugging in your kettle. Significant engineering challenges still exist with reconciling the additional loads presented by EV charging to low-voltage distribution networks that were designed and implemented to taper away from the local substation to the load. Although almost all of the very interesting and fertile discussion in this video centres around the monitoring and control of system frequency, the more prevalent issue for individual customers and distribution network operators of voltage control is not mentioned, even though it is of much greater relevance to low-voltage networks than network frequency. I hope to see advances in V2G technology and much greater adoption of it. I hope to adopt it too, eventually. However, I think there is a lot more R&D required before V2G or domestic renewables in general can be considered as having a significant role in frequency control.

[@rolliebca]

Craig Watson - What a great comment! I think you just gave Rosie food for many more videos, and I for one am looking forward to them. This is one of the most productive ways to move things forward. Progress is always preceded by thought and discussion.

[@redshift3]

V2G using present technology has great promise to offer grid services. If the V2G charger inverters were equipped with "grid forming" (aka "virtual synchronous machine") control then they could directly substitute for the inertia of conventional generators and provide extremely fast frequency and voltage control too. V2G 2.0

[@protectiongeek]

@@redshift3 I think that very unlikely as the 'virtual' machines you refer to have a very significant system impedance between them and the transmission network. Any transient response by V2G would very likely be too slow to maintain system stability within the very tight limits prescribed.

[@johnpoldo8817]

This vid was so good, I had to subscribe. As an EE and 4-year EV owner, I find this subject fascinating. Next time, give person interviewed a microphone because many times it was difficult to hear Bjorn. My inexperience with Australian accent made it worse.

[@zotter2542]

Don't forget oil refinery process being shrunk enormously. This will save a lot of energy. Try and calculate that and your demand drops.

[@gibbousmoon35]

Very interesting! And a wonderful blinding glimpse of the obvious in there for me: Inertia! That had not occurred to me. One of those why didn't I think of that moments.

[@beyondfossil]

Some people were concerned that the V2G will be keeping the EV's battery at a higher than usual 80% of SOC. As well as putting the EV's battery through more charge/discharge cycling than it would otherwise experience. I think these are legit concerns. However, the EV industry is turning to iron based LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries which do not mind being stored at 100% and can be more deeply discharged closer to 0% as well. Basically no need for the NMC "20% rule". LFP also has a much higher charge/discharge cycle at over 2750 cycles before the battery degrades to 80%. This is much larger than NMC's 750 cycles before degrading to 80% capacity. Also LFP chemistry is less prone to thermal runaway fires. All of this happily coincides with V2G technology! NOTE: LFP does have both less power density and energy density compared to NMC. But LFP's wider safer SOC range helps offset the lower energy density. With the lower power density, the LFP battery packs are being built at 800-volt vs the current 400-volt battery pack to help offset the power density. This will also change the ESC and brushless motor windings (kv) to match the higher voltage. One example is the BYD Blade LFP pack which will actually be used in the upcoming Tesla model 3's as well as many of BYD's own vehicles.

[@returner323617]

Thanks. This was a handy insight into want V2G can and should be. One of the inhibitors is also that not many of the "first generation" EVs support exporting power, the Nissan LEAF and some other CHAdeMO-equipped cars being the exception. However, that is changing, and soon every new EV will support V2X. And that's my near-term goal; I have two EVs - both with ~40 kWh batteries - and would love to use these in real-time to act as my domestic energy storage solution for excess solar PV...

[@anydaynow01]

This would be great especially for suburban vehicles where families have more than one vehicle, so there's a greater chance they'll have a spare vehicle always plugged in. Also as long as it's limited to 20% and 80% the battery degradation will be minimized. You could do a video on turquoise H2 production as we transition to cheaper green H2, companies like Graphene Manufacturing Group are making aluminum ion batteries for non-vehicle use using the pure carbon byproduct.

[@rolliebca]

anydaynow - Thanks for mentioning Graphene Manufacturing Group, I was previously unaware of them. Battery technology advances hold so much promise. Hopefully the cream rises to the top quickly so we can all benefit from it asap.

[@TheWiniarss]

Best engineering channel!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks so much! That made me smile when I read that 😊

[@davidcroxton8306]

I think the biggest problem with V2G are the business model issues. The people running Electricity, Water, Transport and Tax all have to work together because they are so interconnected. It is hard to make money out of efficiency. Things that work well and last a long time tend not to make money for the suppliers. Think about how hard it would be to extract money from the owner of an EV with a 50 year life that doesn't pay for fuel. Eg, e commuter bicycles don't pay much tax and have low running/ownership costs. The political concepts of equity, paying for infrastructure, freeloaders, them and us etc become part of the discussion too. Great video Rosie

[@eskileriksson4457]

Me, at first, wrote a load of bs about battery cycles. But the serious EV companies really have no problem with it. Tesla, for one, has always given more battery guarantees than necessary. The idéa of power storage in car batteries has been a good one, even from the beginning. Great to hear some engineers talk about it. And do keep in mind, there are so many city landscapes, in need of a few miles of transportation each day.

[@somefishhere]

Thanks found your channel through a veritasium comment. Just joined the energy sector so it’s great hearing from someone so passionate. What is frequency deviation and what generates different frequencies?

[@amandayaklin2690]

This is really quite brilliant. I always imagined the storage of energy from renewable sources in some big battery facility- but why not in cars?

[@PCRoss2469]

Hey Rosie. great video again. Thinking about this and other grid related issues and your comments about just turning everything off whilst you redesign the grid..., perhaps the "answer " is to design a small residential development from Scratch based on new thinking with a single (if at all) connection to the grid for emergencies. I'm thinking something like each house has as standard, 10-16 kw of Solar, a 5 Kw wind turbine on the roof, two Tesla Batteries or similar and you must own an EV and have it set up with V2G. Obviously mega insulation, and energy smart hot water, lighting, water tanks etc etc. Say 100 houses. Build it on the side of a hill with a pumped Hydro tank at the top as well or compressed air storage or both. I think there's something in the UK but Australia would be so much better / smarter due to the abundance of renewables. Would also make a great documentary. I reckon government and industry would "maybe" get involved, but it would need strong engineering and project control / standards etc.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

I bet there are some projects like that somewhere around the world, I will do some digging and see what the biggest one is. It would be a cool video topic!

[@xsirfr1958]

Great job Rosie! Most EVs made today DON'T have 2 way power ports, i.e. they have only a one way charging port. It costs extra (more parts) to make the port able to discharge as well as charge.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks for this comment! I think I need to follow up with a video on the different EVs' options for V2G or vehicle to building, plus what the smart charger and 2-way charger options are!

[@manuelcilia391]

Dear Rosie, great interview I presume that they are currently using Nissan Leafs in their trails. CCS type charge are yet to finalise a standard for bidirectional charging I think and that is why we are not seeing other brands of EV involved. If I am incorrect please let me know as I want to pull some power out of my BMW i3

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Yep you are right they are using Nissan Leafs 😀

[@phillipsmith4979]

Great video. A couple of questions 1) what is the expected income, and what is ROI. 2) The move to renewables will make the grid less stable so the demand for power will presumably increase. If you need certain power on standby it no use if you can only use a small % of it. I guess it depends on the expected variation in supply.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video! 1 - I am not sure that is known yet, for this trial at least. I will be talking a bit about v2g in an upcoming video on flexible household energy usage (got to come up with a catchier title before I release that one!). I am hoping I can talk to a guy in the UK who has all of his appliances (including his EV) hooked up to respond to changing wholesale electricity prices. So I will ask him about the finances. It's not exactly the same thing as this trial but should be interesting to get some real values. 2 - yes you're right the total capacity will need to be much larger than the usable amount, since you can't rely on having all EVs connected and willing to drain to zero when there's a lengthy blackout. For sure the future electricity system is going to be a lot more complicated than the old one, but it will end up cheaper and of course cleaner. Interesting comments, thanks 😊

[@phillipsmith4979]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Thanks keep up the good work!

[@andrewpintar1620]

Contingency FCAS is an availability payment. It varies wildly qtr to qtr, (read AEMO QED reports for insight) - because contingencies are, by their definition, unfortell-able! That said, in the NEM the average FCAS payment for a 1MW generator (or battery) which was permanently on standby - ie always plugged in, (with minimum 10 mins charge - in the case of a battery - set aside to participate in al 6 FCAS markets) could have earned ON AVERAGE about $100k pa. The revenue per vehicle will thus depend on the lesser of the V2G charger power rating, or the EV BESS inverter power rating. I believe a Nissan Leaf Gen 2 is 50kW. Make some assumptions about % of time ACTUALLY plugged in.....voila...your revenue calc.. ROI, you bought the car to primarily drive it. Presumably it meets your needs (functional economic utility) in excess of the price you were willing to pay. Therefore, any additional revenue is, as they say "money for jam"....your ROI is thus infinity (you paid nothing extra to provide the FCAS - you car was plugged in when you were sitting at our office desk).

[@phillipharding6610]

Nuvve already have it ! American company.

[@jasonleahy5543]

The world's biggest v2g trial by output 1 MW is at Northumberland Park, London with 28 electric double decker buses with a plan for 700 ev buses to be used in the future, if 9,000 plus London buses are used for v2g they could power 150,000 homes, there are two trials of v2g school buses in the USA, 480,000 school buses are in use in america. The world's biggest v2g trial by number of vehicles will be 64 e500 cars in Italy by Fiat. Nuvve research with Honda foung v2g only degraded the batteries by 2% after 8 yrs which was less than acceleration, fast charging and aging, which is low enough not to invalidate the battery warranty, Nissan, Mitsubishi and PSA also told Nuvve the same.

[@ralphtoivonen2071]

How do we manufacture steel, silicon wafers etc using renewables without ramping up the power grids. Do we need to upgrade the transmission network to handle extra energy requirements?

[@jimgraham6722]

It is available, Nissan offers a V2G/vehicle to house (V2H) or vehicle to vehicle (V2H) package to go with their Leaf. You can buy it today. However, I believe Nissan is only one so far, although some of the vehicles coming along offer high power mains outlets.

[@dmdeemer]

Vehicle to grid for frequency regulation works, but only if there is a base load power plant ready to spin up 60 (or 600) seconds later. But it's awfully expensive to build those power plants if you're only going to use them a few times a year. As renewables increase in the energy mix, we still need either sufficient base load or enough grid storage to get through a windless night and an overcast week.

[@gigabyte2248]

There's a couple of other technological factors with V2G that weren't really discussed. The biggest one: a battery delivers direct current (DC) power, but grids run off alternating current (AC) power - converting AC to DC to charge a battery is relatively easy, but converting DC to AC is relatively difficult, and this is something that's really holding V2G back. Almost all existing V2G wallboxes include an inverter, and the DC-to-AC conversion is done off-board. An entire inverter - particularly one which has to put out a true sine wave, with minimal distortion, synchronised to the grid and with a power of 7kW or more, in a wallbox-sized unit - plus the comms hardware for the wallbox to negotiate with the car is not cheap, and bring the cost up to ~5 times what a unidirectional charge point costs. This is the big technological factor holding V2G back - putting an inverter on the wall of every EV owner is not cost-effective for the EV owners or the grid operators, even with the revenue generated by the grid services. The other option is to convert from DC to AC on-board the EV. All EVs have an on-board AC-to-DC converter, and it would need minimal redesign and cost increase to turn into a bidirectional converter. I work in power electronics, and a lot of companies are talking about how on-board chargers will be going bidirectional, including Infineon and Wolfspeed. At the moment, though, on-board V2G (also called AC V2G, because the vehicle supplies AC power) is still in the research stages, although Renault have been doing a load of work on it and the Ford F150 Lightning appears to use this method for their V2H power backup system. The AC wallboxes will be a lot cheaper than the DC wallboxes (they only need to include the required comms tech) and the additional cost to the on-board charger will be minimal - this will probably be the method used in the long-term. The other big technological issue, though, is communications standards. A V2G session needs a negotiation between grid-side and EV-side that's at least as sophisticated as a DC rapid charging session, with the car telling the wallbox its state of charge, voltage, current etc. The only charging standard that supports V2G at the moment is the CHAdeMO standard used by the Nissan Leaf (and it was designed to support it from the start, what with the... risks and history with Japan's grid). All other cars use CCS, and the update to CCS that enables it to be used for V2G will hopefully come out by the end of this year. Volkswagen, in particular, are champing at the bit to add CCS V2G to their electric cars, and from 2022, their ID.3, ID.4 and other EVs that use their MEB platform will support CCS DC V2G. This standard update will also enable on-board AC V2G. V2G is a fascinating topic, and I share your enthusiasm for the technology! I think it can provide invaluable grid services, and also make a huge difference to the deployment of solar - V2G can comfortably carry a few kW of solar power per vehicle from the day into the evening. I think the next few years are going to be very exciting. Footnote: the other factor affecting battery degradation is state of charge. Li ion batteries degrade when charged up to 100% or discharged to 0% and held there. Basically cramming all the Li ions into the cathode or anode causes them to get stuck. The worst thing you can do to a Li ion battery is charge it up to 100% and hold it there, the best thing you can do is hold it at 50%. The V2G trials I've been seeing here in the UK hold the EV battery in a certain SOC band - 20% to 80% or tighter - and only charge up to 100% if asked to. This helps suppress degradation, and will be a lot better for the battery than charging it up to full every night!

[@n1ch0las51]

My Car has V to L Vehicle to Load but its limited to 3KW probably due to inverter cabability and cable size. It can run the house as long as we dont over extend the demand it works just fine as an emergency backup but not as a main storage. as you say proper V2G is a no brainer and we need to get this into the mainstram ASAP.

[@safetybay4345]

Rosie your videos are much appreciated but sometimes (occasionally) the sound quality is challenging. E.g., it was hard to hear some of the things Bjorn said - partly due to the variation in volume and partly his enunciation of course. But thank you again for your work :-)

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Yep, I am saving up my KZbin $$ to buy a better mic setup for onsite interviews. Bjorn needed his own lapel mic, but its cable couldn't reach to the camera and I don't yet have a wireless system. I always create accurate subtitles (not automated) for my videos to help with tricky accents and poor audio quality, so that's all I can suggest until I get some better gear. Thanks for the feedback.

[@sic1038]

This really focuses on grid balancing in terms of fast frequency response but I think the mode I’d be really interested in is longer duration peak shaving/vehicle to house. In the UK 4-8pm roughly the demand shoots up, so do variable rate tariff prices and on the grid all the dirtiest generators come online. I think Aus has an equivalent rise as the sun sets and PV stops generating? So if you can say to your car, “you’re going to give me up to 7kW for the house between these times” then that’d be awesome, almost completely removes your demand from the grid. Or even you can earn some cash by putting any excess up to your 7kW (or whatever your charger is rated at) into the grid. You could set a minimum SOC to prevent the car emptying too far. Most houses wouldn’t use more than say...5kWh? in that time so should be easily manageable. Then you replen overnight on cheap rates. And if you’ve been using excess PV during the day to charge then even better. Obviously depends on your travel and plugging in regime, but this could def work. Indeed I think Octopus energy are trialling this or something similar in the UK now.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

You must have read my mind, because I have a video planned with Octopus about this exact thing 😀

[@sic1038]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Awesome, can’t wait!

[@andrewpintar1620]

If there's any component of the battery value stack that truly makes sense for mobile storage (ie, EVs) its for FCAS, due the super lower energy throughput vs the availability payment. Demand charge management (in a C&I setting) would also make sense given certain load shapes, - wholesale energy arbitrage would not. Critical obviously is ensuring market bidding is aligned with the actual number of EV's (and their respective discharge capacity) that are actually plugged in. Another good vid of a complex topic.

[@firstlast-cs6eg]

So can VtG be used with a regular 110V or whatever plugin? And what if only a few people have EVs in the area and few of them are plugged in at the time, how few vehicles can a VtG system get by on?

[@marlbankian]

Excellent

[@gregchidgey8523]

what is required for v2g as a connection between car and house?

[@ChasL704]

Maybe incorporating municipal buildings court house, fire, police station, school buildings maintenance buildings to act as baseload production production. Being as most of them are off when people are home..

[@The_GuyWhoNeverUploadsAnything]

Good questions and answers but I do wish the mic/audio quality was better in the interview :P

[@longboardfella5306]

Thanks Rosie. One key point is that the cars need to have isolators installed and approved by electrical authorities to avoid situations where workers may be electrocuted by a car powering the wires. Such devices have not been built into most EVs as yet (Leaf exception) due to cost and regulatory complexity. But I think in the USA the decision of Ford to have the new F150 lightning do V2G and now almost certainly the Tesla cybertruck will be a mass market game changer that will force others to adopt. I hope. This technology has the potential to greatly spread power storage which is also part of overall power and frequency security

[@isovideo7497]

An issue is stability of the system. V2G possibly makes the system unstable by causing a small frequency reduction to have an overwhelming short-term response, causing too much power to be fed to the grid, and then the frequency control system overcompensates and drives the grid frequency up excessively. Wild oscillations will crashing the grid system. How do you know how many cars are plugged into the system? Therefore the "loop gain" is unknown, leading to uncertainty in how to respond. It's basically a huge feedback control loop.

[@ramb5193]

That’s why need a system like Tesla VPP which will installed at home and also at the utility, which will adjust the load based on demand by turning or slowing down some power sources

[@johnsomerville4113]

There are lots of trials in the UK that are looking at load shifting as well as frequency response. From recent reports in the UK these have gone pretty well and you could earn ~£500/year from participating. The sting is that only Nissan EVs really embrace V2G and even then the in home hardware is pricy at several thousand pounds. Once this extra hardware cost drops with more installs I could see V2G becoming more widespread.

[@johnsomerville4113]

THE DRIVE TOWARDS A LOW-CARBON GRID - Unlocking the value of vehicle-to grid fleets in Great Britain dl.airtable.com/.attachments/95fdbe2b766435d94e7e093ccfcf0991/4f665cbd/TheDriveTowardsALow-CarbonGridWhitepaper.pdf

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

This one was a very interesting study, thank you for sharing it. Just one more bit of evidence that the UK is a lot more open minded than most other countries when it comes to the possibilities of the energy transition. I'm going to be doing some more videos on V2G and demand flexibility in general soon, and talking about some of what the UK is doing. Please share any other interesting trials that you've heard of!

[@aussieideasman8498]

You nailed it when you said you were thinking like an Engineer, because this is best answered with common sense, and while it 's the least common of all senses, Engineers are no closer to having it than people in retirement homes and farmers (it hasn't been measured is the point). V2G exists because it's a sales point - a gimmick, at that. It is about the first instance where you can purchase, then sell back to the supplier, and it is futile. While it works in theory; there are so many better ways to solve the rare grid problem, but they don't sell EVs. We'll start with petrol. In over 100 years, we have not initiated a scheme where you can put 60 litres in your tank and days later sell a jerry can of it back to the servo where you bought it. It's preposterous, and this is an example of common sense. Map it to your EV, and it is even sillier when the best has the equivalent of about 20 litres to start with. I have often needed petrol for a mower, brush cutter and even generator, and despite my car tank being full and capable of not missing any, it is always common sense to drive down to the servo and get a can for those items. Now, map it to your groceries, your clothes, and just about every consumable you can think of? What need is there to sell back to the supplier, and more importantly - who does it? The gimmick is you can make a buck out of changing rates, but selling back to the grid is better suited to your solar, or even a battery attached to it. The need to involve an EV is a very expensive way to do it, and the maths proves it's senseless for the price you pay extra for the V2G cable and software on any EV that has it. You're getting 1 minute of a sale once a fortnight, after all. I have not bought an expensive battery (or an EV) and my solar sells unused power to the grid at one third of the price I pay for it at night. My last bill was a $26 credit, and I didn't have to monitor anything, as usual. No plugging in, either. The absence of hassle is a part of the common sense I factor in. So if the grid needs a fortnightly boost, then the grid should get more of those Tesla batteries they use in South Aus (or other means), and not rely on EV owners on the wish that 100% of cars in Aus are electric with V2G. The reality is (another common sense factor) - EVs are 1%, and about 1% of those have V2G. You can do the math on that one. While Scomo has grand ideas, they will not eventuate - not even close, so you will be looking somewhere into 2050 and beyond to solve the problem with EVs. In fact, forget Engineers - it's EV owners who are the most irrational vehicle purchasers in the country; those who buy the V2G capability are at the top of the tree. V2L buyers are second tier fools. When ICE cars were sold in large numbers, they didn't sell us all the hoses to connect to the bowsers; no, common sense prevailed and the bowsers had the hoses. EVs? That logic went West, because purchasers are as dumb as posts. V2L and V2G are just so you can buy more hoses. The buying public needs to wake up.

[@tonyarntz821]

Hi Rosie, Thanks for the video. I'm with you with V2G. Besides the lack of hardware to do this there are other issues as well. I happen to think that energy storage and dispatch is a growth industry, but pumped hydro seems to be incredible inefficient, because the first time you drop water through the vanes that kinetic energy only produces around 40% of the electricity equivalent. Pump the water back up with the use of excess solar power for example, which has zero efficiency then drop it through the vanes again at 40% efficiency, that equates to a pretty poor round trip efficiency as far as I can see. In comparison, batteries have a round trip efficiency of around 90%. The disadvantage of battery storage is the initial cost. At around 50cents a watt, a 1 hour base load backup requirement for Australia, around 12 gwh. would cost around $6,000,000,000. Of course we wouldn't need that much storage when we have other backup sources such as gas etc. Imagine if you could charge your car for free while doing your groceries and then when you get home, plug the car in so that when energy demand gets high at around 6PM your car starts assisting the grid with the extra load. It would have a huge impact in flattening the duck curve that is being experienced now. For that to be viable we would need 'Time Of Use' metering, so that one could charge the car at off peak rates, or from solar panels, and then sell it back to the grid when the demand pushes the value right up. That technology already exists if you have a smart meter that is. In my situation, I have a 9 KW solar array on the house. I also have a 'power hog' ducted air conditioner Over 12 months I buy around 4MW from the grid but sell back 10MW back to the grid. Growatt have battery inverter technology that takes power from the solar panels and then monitors the direction power through your meter box. It then balances the solar energy with household use to determine whether to charge the battery, or power the house, or use the battery power if the solar is not producing enough. Without proper legislation, V2G just isn't going to happen, but with a good bi-directional home car charger, (V2H) the 40 or so KW battery could easily flatten your household energy consumption. In our case, the solar panels don't produce enough energy to run the household in June and July so we would have to top up the car at the shopping centre every few days. Maybe one day we will get a federal government that is serious about cleaning up the grid. A good start like I said, would be TOU Metering, no imported EV's unless it has V2G. (Ordinary EV's are a bourdon on the grid) I'm sure you have a good grasp on the subject and hope this may give you a different look at the technology. Thanks.

[@redshift3]

Round trip efficiency of pumped hydro is 70%-80%, not 40% as you stated. Battery storage round trip efficiency is 80%-90%

[@bardrick4220]

I really like the emergency backup, since I could just DCFC somewhere that the grid is still active and bring the power home; I could keep my house from freezing!

[@bman3bakti]

So what B2C model could I actually use now to create more engagement for consumers to be in the ecosystem, working on a project and could definitely use some advice. Aside from clear directives to help aid the transition, what opportunity is clearly underutilized from the automotive side? I would imagine that the best thing is to provide incentives but how else can build the involvement? Assuming that promising monetary returns on the possibility of this future is not sustainable. Is the home grid the best starting point? How else?

[@kullatnunu2087]

@11:54-12:00 Where are those brakers located that turn off USs power? 😉

[@HughCStevenson1]

It should be possible to do VAR stabilization of voltage as well if the charger is designed for the purpose.

[@redshift3]

Yes but VAr service at domestic LV might not be useful to operators of HV systems (whose needs often vary by time of day) and would need careful design to avoid disrupting the voltage control strategy of the LV system

[@ianohearn4042]

You are assuming vehicles are standing connected to the grid. I understand that AGL currently have a plan underway subsidising their customers to install home batteries in the Sydney metropolitan area for exactly the option of having backup battery power in case of emergencies.

[@buixote]

I've been interested in this, hoping to put our puny 1st-gen Leaf battery to work (24kWh). It''s nearly twice our Powerwall. Unfortunately, the only hardware available here (setec-power 6kWh Chademo Inverter) is only compatible with 2013 and newer Leafs, and not at *all* with the Kia Chademo (so much for *standards*). Looks like we're going to have to wait for the F150... :-( Oh yeah, and that setec unit only made *single-phase* 220, not the "split phase" we're accustomed to here (California).

[@VerilogTutor]

Excellent video, but what about vehicle to home, which is simpler? I have solar panels and a house battery but would love to be able to use an EV’s battery as well, but the electronics doesn’t appear to be available.

[@MrRossi1805]

What is with V2H (Vehicle to home) I’m owning a 40kw Nissan Leaf and would love to use this option. Unfortunately, no one offers the required hardware!

[@grahamboddington5433]

One key reason there is limited or no take-up is that the world's largest BEV Manufacturer does not recommend or support V2G or V2H. Tesla primarily does this because the majority of their models have battery chemistry that is limited to 1000+ cycles and Tesla spends a fair bit of time convincing their BEV owners not to do V2G/H. Recently their base level model Y's and Model 3's use LFP batteries which are rated for 3000+ cycles and are really well suited to V2H and V2G, however it is only the base model single rear wheel drive options. All the long-range and higher performance options and all Model S and X's don't do LFP. You wont see Tesla supporting this until many more of their models have battery technology that are conducive. Personally I want the option and I am waiting for the manufacturers to start supporting it as part of there recommended/warranted use of their vehicles i.e. the Ford F150 in the USA is one such vehicle for the V2H option. The BEV Manufacturers I follow don't do this yet in AU but I expect this to change in the next 1-2 years and that is when I will buy my BEV.

[@royceliveley2688]

Hey great video, I love the idea of V2G and will be supporting that in the near future. Not sure about anyone else but I have no interest in supporting the grid, I want the grid to support my electric vehicle when solar roof doesn’t deposit enough charge into my EV for evening home usage and driving around. This will require battery technology to show less degradation and hopefully that’s only 3-5 years away with Tesla ‘million mile battery’ or other companies giving it a red hot go

[@brianhawkes4178]

I still don’t know what part of renewable power generators are renewable? It should read replaceable. Shouldn’t it?

[@xxwookey]

Mostly we need a charger spec so we can install future proof kit. Can I buy a V2G-ready charger yet? Preferably one with an open protocol spec and updateable open-source driver software i can integrate with the rest of my house. you also didn;t mention the huge missing bit which is that the CCS spec doesn't cover V2G yet and that 95% of new EVs. Only Chademo had this from the start and that's pretty much just leafs + Japan. So to say that the tech is 'ready' seems a little optimistic to me. We are currently selling hundreds of thousands of cars that aren't ready (although it may only be a software fix - you didn't get into this).

[@DavidMDensford]

Still would like to know how a LAES (liquid air cryobattery) would compare to V²G.

[@chrisconklin2981]

I live in north Florida and the first hurricane of the season just passed through. The last big hurricane, I had no electricity for two weeks. I am considering a BEV. As BEVs convert AC to DC to charge, what is the possibility of putting a simple 120v outlet on all BEVs?

[@SobrisSweden]

There are several cars with household outlets to choose from on the market today...

[@chrisconklin2981]

@@SobrisSweden To be more precise what I wish for is an external secure AC outlet. As Tesla is the highest selling BEV in USA: According to the Tesla users club: No, the Model 3 does not have an AC outlet. You can buy an inverter for the 12V cigarette lighter outlet though (they are not expensive). The outlet is limited to 12A continuous load (i.e. 144W). ..... The Cybertruck most likely will have 120v outlets

[@SobrisSweden]

@@chrisconklin2981 Well, if Tesla can not deliver, you have to look elsewhere :-)

[@WeBeGood06]

I'm excited about it too. It would be nice to get rid of the "grid fee". Is the sun not shining, solar generation low, home battery low and car almost out of power. Drive your car to the nearest fast charger and bring the power home, to top off the house battery.

[@adamlytle2615]

Judging by the comments, a lot of people are looking at V2G through the prism of "what would this be like for me and my car, specifically?"... And in the long term, sure, I think individual vehicle owners will play a part. But I think the real tipping point that's going to sneak up on people is fleet vehicles. Like all the 100,000 Rivian delivery trucks Amazon has ordered. Or the 11,000 EV school buses being purchased as part of a recent US infrastructure bill. These will represent huge amounts of storage capacity, managed by companies and government agencies that are (usually) waaay better at thinking rationally about longer term investments.

[@fidalfadel]

It works fine in theory. The problem is always being connected to the grid. For this only works when every parking space has a charging point. Obviously at night if you can charge at home then that works. But what happens when you are shopping or at work. All those parking space need to be connected. All your busses and trucks that will be charged at night will spend most of their time charging as you have to put so much energy into them you don't have the spare capacity to discharge.

[@tcroft2165]

Various UK schemes for this like octopus energys powerloop or the big power companies have various schemes for biz customers like edfenergy v2g

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

I will be talking to someone from Octopus energy soon! It sounds really exciting what they are doing, I am looking forward to finding out the details, especially what they are doing with EV chargers.

[@redfern_mike]

Can you do an investigation about all the obstacles against this technology specific to the Australian (and NSW) situation, including EV makers that won't allow their vehicles to participate in V2G

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's a great idea. I am actually in the market for a new car now (actually I'd rather it was 2nd hand, but the value proposition on a 2nd hand EV is not so great compared to a new one), and one of the disadvantages of getting a Tesla is that V2G isn't supported. I assume they will eventually bring together their whole "ecosystem" with the solar roof, powerwall and car and presumably have some smarts controlling all that together. But 1 - I don't want to wait and 2 - it's really annoying to get locked into one brand for everything.

[@stephenleopold3950]

Rosie, I thought I saw a pic of PM Morrison questioning whether an EV can tow a boat or trailer. Really? Maybe you have heat like us here in Nevada that affects people's minds! lol Since the 1970s, the primary form of rail propulsion has been diesel-electric where the drive motors are electric but the electricity comes from diesel generators instead of batteries but more recently they use battery backup. So electric motors can pull a 100 car freight train uphill but not a boat behind a car? Let's not get into electrically powered multi-ton cargo ships. It seems your politicians are as slow as ours.

[@ChaseNoStraighter]

The real secret to fixing the grid is to make it a true free market with real time pricing for all. Let anyone supply and put value in for supplies close to loads. In other words have carrying charges that reflect real costs and benefits. If people can make money from their cars sitting in the garage, they will do it. If energy suppliers don’t have to have a GW generator on standby because there is a GW of car batteries on standby everyone wins.

[@stevenclarke7777]

The biggest problem with V2G in Australia especially is that a large majority of our EVs are Teslas which don't support V2G.

[@ranyaron1]

Great video, thanks. Apropos, business model: May the car battery better be owned and maintained (similar to the rest of the power grid) by the utility company of the car's owner?

[@rinokentie8653]

Thanks Rosie. Very interesting - I am waiting for EV's which make this possible.

[@gustavlicht9620]

Battery degradation is dependent among others by the depth of charging. Charging and discharging daily by say 10% would have little impact. I think that the biggest issue with V2G technology is that it is stochastic storage dependent on vehicle use patterns, vehicle owner needs and other factors stochastically influencing availability. So now we have stochastic energy source and stochastic storage. This is a lot of cats to herd. There are however scenarios where car batteries can be used to smooth short transients for frequency control. I think that a much bigger benefit is using electric cars for individual energy storage - you can drive the car to where the energy is needed. Cars are mobile energy storage.

[@freddiecarr7602]

17:38 is a little long for an elevator pitch. I've owned an Electrical Contracting business in the same industrial park as EV GRID INC who has fought this battle for 20 years ( Shame for not putting a plug in for them). By the way, AC PROPULSION ( Yes, that AC Propulsion) is in the same industrial park ( San Dima Commerce Center, San Dimas CA). At the community mailbox, I've always argued you have to start with the utility providers assuring they will pick up round trip warranty issues with vehicle manufacturers when the EVs are used to feed the grid. Remember in America we still have a huge amount of across-the-line starting and poor power factor correction.

[@nc3826]

The problem with V2G is logistics. Even if most EVs are not being driven most of the time. Doesn't mean they are plugged into a bi-directional charger, when they are needed. Which is another advantage for modular battery swapping. Most of the capacity can be at a stationary location most of the time. Which is why NIO can make money by using electricity arbitrage.

[@HaldaneSmith]

1. One important piece of information left out of this video was that a typical EV with a 60kWh battery can power a typical home for two days. A Tesla 3 has a 57.5 kWh battery, the long range, 75 kWh. So this means an EV has enough battery to power your home in the evening when there's no solar, but you need to recharge every day. 2. So one thing needed to make this work is having charging stations at all work place parking since you want to charge during the afternoon when solar is in over supply. 3. The second thing needed is EVs that can do V2G. Teslas cannot right now (2023). Nissan Leafs may be the only EV that can. 4. The third thing needed is an electric utility company that allows two way flow of energy. In the U.S. the 2022 Infrastructure bill or Inflation Reduction Act provides funding or incentives to make this happen where it isn't already. (Would it be possible for a home to run directly off the EV battey instead of using the grid as an intermediary?) I couldn't understand what Bjorn was saying about Australia's obstacles to V2G even with captions turned on. Perhaps it's the lack of two way electricity flow at homes?

[@davidwilkie9551]

Down the Coast where we build a fire proof underground Earthship home/business, the V2G will be as far as possible remote from the outside grid, and that can go to the hell they've committed us to. An at-home battery supplied by wind and solar should be 50% size of the car, and the Lithium Titanium type so you can fast charge when required. All the rest is Commentary.

[@WeBeGood06]

In the city, Solar and Batteries use only a small area of "the grid". By that I mean small distance of "the grid". Like plumbers say "S... only flows downhill", this is true about electricity too. Electricity generated at home will be used by the closes neighbor that needs it, line losses are smaller as distance traveled is small. So, Grid Infrastructure usage is small. Grid Operators need to charge "Grid Users" by how far, the distance their electricity travels on "The Grid". This would equalize "Grid Cost", so that large Power Generators will have to pay for the "Grid Cost" of being located far from the "Grid Users". And, "City Generators" like Solar Houses get more $$ for generating close to the end user.

[@firstbigbarney]

Using a car battery as an energy storage device for off grid usage would complicate the manufacturer warranty , especially where customers would power other things like heat and a/c with their vehicles,especially in peak load daytime hours.The usage by the utility would be minimum so that would affect the vehicle very little.

[@malcolmstreet1]

Nissan specifically includes V2G use in the Leaf battery warranty if the installation is to their standards.

[@enemyofthestatewearein7945]

I note many EV owners seem nervous about the potential for inconvenience, battery degradation etc. so I think it's important to point out the potential financial rewards here - Grid operators pay huge sums for balancing services and the fastest responding attract the greatest premium, this is currently in the order of several tens of thousands of dollars per MW just for availability. As noted providers are paid even if it's not actually used, like an 'on call' retainer payment. I suspect many (most?) vehicle owners would therefore be willing to participate if they had opportunity to take a slice of this very substantial (and growing) pie. So IMO it's the flexible tariffs and other market incentives that will be the key to unlocking V2G as much as the tech. It's a great opportunity for EV owners to earn revenue while grid operators lower their costs. It's a Win-win for all apart from the Diesel farmers, and we need to be getting rid of them anyway.

[@shankhaneelbasak5709]

V2G is all great. I am heavily rooting for it, but my concern lies deeply with the availability of rare earth elements that goes into manufacturing of battery and there's only a limited amount of them. If we look into Li-ion batteries in today's Tesla cars there's only a limited capacity per gram. Will that be enough for V2G putting aside other primary uses of it? Unless we are drastically shifting towards new materials to make batteries, or improve the demand and supply chain logistics, this V2G technology as far as my naive understanding goes won't be economically viable. If the use of V2G is sparse as Bjorn explained then it should be fine but if the demand increases then it might create some issues. Also consumer-electricity supplier-regulators need to develop a trust regarding safety and incentives. Else the technology looks perfectly fit to be used. Again thanks for the video Rosie ma'am. Keep up your good work.

[@rubidot]

Rare earth elements are actually quite plentiful, they just require specific, complex processes to extract. It, of course, requires a lot of investment to build out that capacity. With the increasing demand, and the importance to national security of having access to these metals, more countries and companies are investing in the infrastructure to extract these resources. We aren't in danger of running out of these elements, there just needs to be enough demand to make the investment of extracting them make sense.

[@rolliebca]

Shankhaneel Basak - I agree with your view, however don't discount the probabilities of improved battery chemistries, like for example the aluminum ion battery developed by Graphene Manufacturing Group. We live in exciting times, if it's handled equitably for all.

[@lowrads3653]

I'm concerned about Tesla making frame-integrated battery packs, as it may be harder to take the degraded pods and turn them over to grid applications like superchargers as an intermediate step to recycling.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That is a good point. I assume they must still be able to remove damaged or degraded batteries to replace them, otherwise the car's lifetime would be limited by the battery's, but that is just an assumption on my part. Soon I will be making a video soon where I will tour a facility where they take degraded batteries and make them into stationary storage as a second life before recycling. I bet the guy I am interviewing there will know about the Tesla integrated batteries so I will try to include that in the video. Thanks for raising this!

[@ReevansElectro]

Nothing will ever get done if we have to solve all perceived problems before we ever make anything. Nothing is perfect and we have to make some possible difficult choices and compromises. That is what engineering is.

[@AntsAasma]

Tesla's structural battery pack is still a separate module that could be reused if form factor is not terribly important. Given degradation rates quoted for EV batteries, it's quite probable that rest of the car is worn out beyond reasonable repair before the battery is. Currently it seems that at 500'000 km the battery life will still be fine, but from what I have seen on the used car market, interior trims do not do so well.

[@_aullik]

Honestly its not that bad if the lights go out. As long as it is only once or twice and with lots of warning beforehand. Lets say we build up the new system and test it, and then we set a date for the switch where we are ready with backup plans and then there will be a countrywide blackout for max 30 minutes while we swap to the new system.

[@peterevenhuis2663]

The problem is simple when you consume electricity you pay a price, if you want to feedback the grid to support you only take 50% of the money. So it costs to support the grid, so yes technology exist but the government needs to step in to change the rules. Before the that it's a NO-NO

[@mrhickman53]

The problem I see for V2G is not so much the vehicle as it is the ancillary equipment that must be installed at the residence. Whereas a unidirectional charging interface is essentially a simple communications circuit, ground fault detection circuit and contactor the bidirectional interface includes an inverter to convert the battery's DC energy to the grid AC energy. This is much more expensive to manufacture than the unidirectional charging interface and, thus, costs many times more unless subsidized by the utility. The only example I can find that may eventually be available to me (same as pictured in the video) incorporates a grid-tie inverter. In other words it is only suitable for operation when the inverter senses the presence of grid power. It will not operate in a backup mode in the event of grid power loss. Though it may eventually be upgraded to include off-grid operation such operation would need to be interlocked with a cross-over switch that physically isolates the circuit(s) powered by the inverter from the grid. If this crossover operates automatically it can be quit pricey, as well. The most tangible benefit for EV owners that are also subject to occasional or power outages would be to use the vehicle as a backup residential power source. However, the ancillary equipment make this a pricey option. The Independent System Operator (ISO) for my region does provide incentives for Tesla Powerwalls to be managed by the ISO for a limited number of hours per year for the line stabilization and/or demand control. As these battery systems are expressly installed as backup systems I can see a more cost-effective DC-DC connection between the powerwall and vehicle in order to provide additional reserve. One would only need to purchase as many powerwalls as required for peak AC power and rely on the vehicle for additional energy for extended outages. It also permits the vehicle to travel to an area that still has power in order to recharge without the residence losing power. Possessing a lifetime free Supercharging perk for my Tesla I am well aware that such systems open the possibility to abuse that perk. I suggest that Tesla knows the energy consumed while driving, the energy gained by destination charging and that gained by supercharging. It would be straightforward for Tesla to charge me for energy supercharged and discharged into a Powerwall. Now only if I owned a Powerwall.

[@anthropod7263]

Perhaps look at the Tesla Megapack at Hornsdale Australia 🤔

[@dadawoodslife]

One of the problems is that we are capitalists. The grid is there for supply and generation companies to make profit. The grid doesn't exist primary as a provided service to the country. For example: Most cars stand idle most of the day and night. If you commute to work, plug in to provide grid capacity during the day, then drive home and hook in again, who pays/gets charged whilst you are connected to your employer's connection? The idea of whenever you are not driving you are providing part of a national battery capacity is great, but the need for profit will hinder the uptake.

[@SobrisSweden]

In the coming standard the car will have a unique identifier, so the owner of the car will get the compensation...

[@devluz]

Grid designs & related business models seem to be often a hurdle. I recently read about Solar & Wind power (or the lack of it) in New Zealand. Large parts of NZ have perfect conditions for both and it could probably be used to reduce the load on the hydro power plants that power 60% of the country. This way they can use their reservoir like a battery (despite not having any pump storage). Turns out they don't do that. The electricity market here decides the cost of electricity based on how much hydro power is available. Less availability of hydro power means there is a shortage of electricity generation and this increases the price. This means that if they use solar & wind over hydro power and keep the reservoir levels higher they get paid less. So despite having perfect conditions for Hydro, Geothermal, Solar, Wind and lots of unused storage capabilities they still use lots of coal ...

[@MikeYoungeasytravel]

Hmmm, you are surprised that companies creating centralized non renewable power are not willing to support a decentralized renewable power?

[@DjChronokun]

the idea of using BEVs as grid storage has always seemed so bizarre to me if BEVs need all their range, then draining their batteries would be bad if they don't need all their range, then it would make so much more sense to just put smaller batteries in them, then you're not wasting energy hauling around all that extra mass of battery packs that aren't being used also totally bizarre that Australia is so keen on grid storage when they have all this perfectly good Uranium that they already mine and export, that could give them as much cheap, highly reliable, on demand electricity, as they could possibly need and even stranger than despite being a country seemingly perfectly positioned for large scale green hydrogen production, it seems to be such a small part of Australia's plans, and FCEVs seem to get much less support than BEVs, and green H2 for grid storage gets much less support than grid scale batteries and pumped hydro, and it's not just the abundant sun either, the brown coal would also be great for hydrogen production, and the uranium too