Ep.65 Armies of Germany V3 | Bolt Action Podcast

[@bazza1carter]

Listening to this in bite(!) sized pieces. The Volksgrenadier special rule was called Mixed Quality - always bit of a long shot. But now even worse as the green roll is just on a 6...

[@TabletopTommies]

Oh dear! That makes the naming confusion so much worse! And that's a great point about it's likelihood being half as likely now! Jonny

[@stompie51]

Just to say that I’ve been enjoying listening to the backlog of your amazing podcasts. Keep going with it.❤❤❤

[@Schyzofrenic87]

the SS guys just randomly charging made me think of proxying the SS guys with the deathkorps..

[@Dreckmal01]

I am getting into bolt action now. Started collecting US amd German forces. I really appreciate rhe veteran competitive gamer perspective you guys bring to a discussion.

[@TabletopTommies]

Cheers, don't get too worried about using the units we think are best though, i'd still use whatever you think is cool in the short term, as nothing here is so bad it'll cause you to lose on its own. (Except maybe the Maus or another big tank that uses atleast a third of your points - but thats the price you pay if you want the cool toys!) Jonny

[@jamesspratley8163]

First time listener, relatively new player, found that really useful. Cheers lads, subscribed.

[@TabletopTommies]

Welcome aboard! Thanks for listening!

[@wellhungindung]

First time listener, subscribed, very informative, thanks.

[@TabletopTommies]

Welcome aboard! Thanks for listening!

[@Cyberbat]

Great episode, guys. As a very-much casual player this was a great overview - but couldn't agree more about theatre selections - I've recently bought the Gentleman's War set, along with the v2 Western Desert campaign book, and it feels like the wealth of information I need to get the right units in the right place at the right time will be lost across the transition to the new edition. I'm not a WW2 geek so rely on the books to ensure a balanced casual game with friends etc - I'm not sure just Early War / Mid War will cut it for North Africa, but we'll see.

[@TabletopTommies]

Thank you for listening, if you aren't already, please do subscribe ready for the next big release!

[@wellhungindung]

When will my 6 man horse mounted Chinese Warlord all smg command groups get rules again? I'll wait about 4 years

[@DukeExeter]

I really liked the intelligence officer rule, I used it a ton on several different armies, it almost always paid itself back because lots of games in turn 5 or 6 in the late game I NEED that first dice out of the bag and this gave me a much better chance to guarantee it, it is quite a bit more expensive so idk how often I'll use it now

[@lesliebeilby-tipping6854]

The campaign books still do work with the new rules. Particularly if you use the campaign book as the starting point for game. Hope you both are going to send back to Warlord the start of the errata sheet for the Armies of Germany.

[@adriankabalak7067]

Thank you guys

[@TabletopTommies]

You're welcome, thanks for listening!

[@Vorpal_Wit]

I think the intent is that the gun crew have field craft, not the artillery piece. So if they leave the gun to go crew another gun, they are unaffected buy the rough ground, but if they want to move their gun, it better be a winterized mountain gun, or it can't move. The requirement for purchasing fieldcraft is just affecting the crew incidentally as its a Gebirgsjager force requirement. The mountain gun rule being specific for the guns they might use.

[@TabletopTommies]

"An artillery unit consists of two elements - the gun model and its crew (which includes a team leader, in the same way as infantry units), which together form a single unit." Page 124 BRB "FIELDCRAFT These units are rigorously trained and equipped for traversing different types of difficult terrain, and therefore treat rough ground as open ground instead." Page 120 BRB RAW the gun is part of the unit, the whole unit treat rough ground as open ground, therefore the gun treats rough ground as open ground regardless of whether it is a mountain gun or not, so if Warlord want it to play in the way you suggest they intended, it requires a significant errata! Jonny

[@craigcameron3378]

Looking forward to this!

[@Flippotycoon4583]

Anti-Tank rifles where deffently used by the volksturm mostly captured Russian once.

[@michaelgallagher9950]

What units would you recommend to add to a German Winter Heer starter army box themed around 1944 Battle of the Bulge?

[@TheRovingRebel61]

Does the book have the rules for the 33rd SS Charlemagne in it? (Originally found in the v2 Ostfront book)

[@TabletopTommies]

No, they only get a short mention in the flavour text. But you could represent them more generically using the Defend the Fatherland rules.

[@TheRovingRebel61]

Too bad, they had a cool rule "No Way Out" which was basically an upgraded Fanatics for an extra point ​@TabletopTommies

[@twinlinked]

For fieldcraft arty, there is another consideration, if the crew has fieldcraft but the guns have ginshields, the guns cannot move through rough ground but the crew can run 12 in through rough ground to recrew guns, Might be why guns "may" remove gunshields..

[@TabletopTommies]

Although the Fieldcraft rule applies to the unit, rather than just to infantry, so the artillery unit would benefit from ignoring rough ground which is why we were confused - I expect we'll see some clarification down the line! Phil

[@rodento3220]

Defend the Fatherland also allows for some units to go in gliders or make paradrops... I think the Field craft and mountain gun are different. only defend the fatherland guns can get field craft but "All guns" can remove shields and not be penalized by ice and snow...

[@TabletopTommies]

I don't know where you are getting that info from because in the Armies of Germany book we received: Defend the Fatherland doesn't include any rules for gliders or paradrops & Only guns with Defend the Fatherland can become mountain guns. Jonny

[@timo.9451]

Did you see the Stationary Firing Platform rule? Does it apply to all AA vehicles?? 😮

[@TabletopTommies]

Yes but it only affects all multiple rocket launchers and: Opel flak 38 Sdkfz 10/4 & 10/5 Sdkfz 7/1 & 7/2 Horch 1a Flak 38

[@timo.9451]

@TabletopTommies oh sad but good… I taught the Drilling will be affected too..

[@michaelshrumii1494]

Where could I find an SDKFZ 251/21 Drilling? Is it in one of the 251 kits? Is this vehicle in V3 Armies of Germany? Also, any chance at all LMG teams might come back in an FAQ?

[@jeffnorris3913]

Rubicon has the 251 and an upgrade kit. There are also some 3d prints out there. I think I'm going to go with rubicon

[@adiebland9220]

Are Schutzen still a thing? And do they still have their free MG?

[@e-4airman124]

thank you for the info

[@samsolopeeps]

Any recommendations on what to build from the new Veterans box for a nice engineer platoon.

[@TabletopTommies]

The new sprues are really nice (I'm working on a small project with them at the moment), and give you plenty of options. For Engineers, have a look at the size of the unit available, number of SMGs, include a Flamethrower and, as Jonny said, the Sturmpistol looks a solid option - but don't spend too much on one unit! You also get an AT rifle per sprue, which I'm a fan of. Phil

[@samsolopeeps]

@TabletopTommies thinking Leutnant, Flamethrower + SMG squad with a Sturmpistol in a 251/10 and 2x 6 man Grenadelauncher and LMG squads. Then maybe another flamethrower team in the 251. Probably far too many points but sounds very cool in my head!

[@deccabw]

All the armies that get double shots with their arty observers will be powerfully.

[@tonybooker5059]

I have a question, is the Panther Ersatz M10 in the book?

[@TabletopTommies]

No :(

[@tonybooker5059]

@TabletopTommies now I'm going to cry. I have one.

[@LongLe-wx8gb]

Damn, I just built 3 Panzer 3, and 3 Panzer 2’s. I feel like they’re still competitive?

[@TabletopTommies]

Not the best, not the worst in my opinion. So competitive enough if you think they are cool. Jonny

[@danko90]

Is there any different version for the panther? Like the early ausf D, back in v2

[@MattVarnish1103]

The early Panther is mentioned in the fluff for the Panther but the only variants are Kugelblitz, Jagdpanther and Panther.

[@danko90]

Thank you ​@@MattVarnish1103

[@peter9314]

What happened with the Sdkfz 251/22 Packwagen? Did they really delete this one? Is the Panzerbüchse 41 also avalible in late war?

[@MattVarnish1103]

pakwagen is in there. The panzerbuchse 41 anti tank squeeze bore on the little wheeled trails is in there too as an AT gun, and is E/M/L so LW is fine.

[@peter9314]

@MattVarnish1103 That saved my day. Thank you for this information.

[@MattVarnish1103]

@@peter9314 No worries, there is a tonne of units in that book, so I'd be genuinely shocked that its missing something, apart from the twin co-ax Pzr III. That is NOT an option :)

[@peter9314]

@@MattVarnish1103 After the release of V3, I have more than enough to worry about when it comes to warlord games.

[@deniskosta1080]

Seems they missed some opportunities with this book. I am disappointed at the loss of theatre selectors. The EW/MW/LW lists are wrong too!

[@TabletopTommies]

oh dear! what errors have you spotted?

[@deniskosta1080]

​@TabletopTommies I have only seen MW list: Pantherturm - 1944 RSO with Pak 40 -1944 SF39H -mid - 1944 U304(f) APC -mid - 1944 U304(f) Mortar Carrier -1944 U304(f) with Pak 36 -mid 1944 S303(f) and S307(f) - mid 1944 Sd Kfz 250/8 Stummel - 1944 ROA squads - formed late 1944, saw combat from early 1945. Some of those other captured vehicles might have been in service but not used in combat until 1944 - eg captured FT17s or other French tanks used for training. Also units that violate Warlord's stated "principles years of service." Panzershreck - only delivered from October 1943. Only really enters service en masse in 1944. At least 4 units with access to Fausts (Grenadiers, LW SS, LW FJ, LW Gebirgsjager) - fausts were only delivered in limited numbers from August 1943. Only really enters service en masse in 1944. At least 4 units with access to Assault Rifles (Grenadiers, LW SS, LW FJ, LW Gebirgsjager) - tiny numbers of ARs used in combat trials. Only really enters service en masse in late 1944. Flammpanzer B2(f) (12 saw service for 1 month in 1941, Mainly used in 1944).

[@henrikluffe3089]

I heard rumours that panzer 3 early war lost their 3 machinegun options, is that true? or can you still take the panzer 3 E with 3 machine guns.

[@TabletopTommies]

Correct, there is no dakka panzer! Jonny

[@henrikluffe3089]

@TabletopTommies thanks for the reply but not the answer I was hoping for haha :D

[@Nerfwerfer]

This makes me sad. ​@TabletopTommies

[@jonathanbirkeland1085]

What is the cheapest/earliest tank that can be taken as a “Panzer Ace”? A StuG III? Maybe a Panzer III ausf G? What is the cost to upgrade to a Panzer Ace?

[@TabletopTommies]

I believe in the episode we said it was the Panzer G, 270pts veteran, but I may be wrong. Panzer Ace is a free upgrade for 1 veteran tank in your force. Jonny

[@jonathanbirkeland1085]

@TabletopTommiesthanks for the clarification!

[@MattVarnish1103]

@TabletopTommies It isn't every tank, but the Hetzer is the cheapest Panzer Ace eligible Tank. StuGIII also is Ace-able. You'd think the JagdTiger would be most expensive but it doesn't have panzer Ace so its Tiger II is the most expensive Ace tank. No early war tanks have Panzer Ace.. its MW or LW only.

[@dexionsgamingcorner310]

On the Panzerfaust. It's a 15pt upgrade that might pop a 300pt unit. 15 might be too steep, but 5 was absolutely too cheap.

[@TabletopTommies]

Meet in the middle? 10pts?

[@Walkr-en8lk]

My nebelwerf doesn’t have multiple launcher rules? Wut

[@stump182]

over under on days until the FAQ?

[@TabletopTommies]

Fingers crossed for the end of the month at the latest! 🤞 Jonny

[@MattVarnish1103]

There is some Early War infantry unit that can take Panzerfausts, I assume that will be FAQed out... :)

[@wellhungindung]

I think they meant fieldcraft and not pathfinder.

[@TabletopTommies]

Yes it seems so.

[@danielmoody5867]

Is the polizi tank in the book asking for a freind

[@TabletopTommies]

Nein!

[@danielmoody5867]

Aww man she will not be happy

[@EnzoSmithers]

From a new player to V3 perspective, i'm left feeling a bit dissapointed with things at present, obviously i've not read it or got my book yet, but going on things ou have said the thematic partsd with defend the fatherland seem 'nice' but not somerthing thats an auto take. and then there is the extra expense of officer weapons, Inexperienced officers losing the extra snap too, light mortars i've been a fan of recently so losing them in my late war themed army is dissapointing as well. I'm not seeing any real upside at present!

[@TabletopTommies]

To be fair, even with paying for weapons the officers are significantly cheaper than v2 while being significantly more powerful. Inexperienced officers thematically shouldnt benefit from a command perk national characteristic, due to their inexperience. And it wouldnt be thematic to use light mortars late war, outside of a handful of engagements (which i wish we had theatre selectors for 🤣). Jonny

[@Kristian_Jensen]

I appreciate Warlord's keeping the (campaign) fluff out and having a rulebook containing rules. Keeps the cost down and enables them to later make campaign, map and scenario books. Thank you for your honest review.

[@TabletopTommies]

Yes, I can see the logic in keeping it streamline. But as I said in the episode, I do wish they'd kept the theatre unit lists instead of the early, mid, late unit lists. Jonny

[@peter9314]

@TabletopTommies After the disappointment of the V3 rulebook, I would have been surprised if Warlord had managed to produce a good army book.

[@Kristian_Jensen]

@@peter9314 What disappointed you in the book?

[@peter9314]

@@Kristian_Jensen Where should I start? In my opinion, the rules themselves are a big step backwards and in no way a further development. They could have added so much more and really developed the game, but it seems they were too lazy to do that and just changed things to sell a product. If you want some examples, I can write you a whole essay and the solutions, but Warlord should have made an effort and listened to the players. The book itself also reflects this. Whether you need the first 50 pages is up to you. The army pages at the back are completely superfluous after the army books have been published and are only intended to make the book appear thicker. Probably sells better. This could also have been solved with PDF files. They didn't even manage to list a normal truck in the German armylist. Otherwise diagrams are wrong. Rules are described contradictorily, sometimes fragmented over several pages, although they could have been easily summarised or are even missing. And if you already have an index, it should also contain all the pages for a rule. For example, halftracks. Instead, there are countless cross-references which are also incorrect and you end up having to search through the whole book. For example, Infiltrator: The index says page 120. On page 120 there is a reference to page 161. On page 161 there is a picture. After searching for ages, you find the rest of the rule on page 175. Why? This structure was already outdated in the 90s. In 2024/25 it's just a bad joke. I could go on forever on this topic. For me, Warlord Games has disappointed across the board with V3.

[@DukeExeter]

@@peter9314 you have some good points, but some bad ones too The simple army lists are very good to have included in the main rulebook and thats been standard since the very beginning of V1. It allows to you buy just the rulebook and start playing right away, no need to buy two more books so you can have the rules for two armies to fight each other. The first 50 pages is a summary of the war are for those who know absolutely nothing about the war. This is a HISTORICAL war game after all, its nice to get people interested in learning the HISTORY of what we are trying to recreate. They didn't list a "normal" truck in the German army list because they added a section for generic transport vehicles for all nations to use on page 279. This is to save space instead of having to have an entry for a US truck, and German truck, a British truck, a Soviet truck, and a Japanese truck because the rules for all of those are exactly the same and don't need to be repeated over and over again. So that's where your "normal" truck entry is.

[@toninoedge1659]

the 250/4 doesnt exist as a unit anymore! its part of the new 250 series that Warlord sells, bit of a shame its gone.

[@TabletopTommies]

No, it does still have rules, it's an optional 10pts upgrade for the 250/1, gives you 2 pintle mounted front arc mmgs.

[@toninoedge1659]

@TabletopTommies so it's in the transport slot? Or gets moved to an Armoured Car once you purchase the upgrade, kinda sneaky they hid it out off the AA list. Also how'd we know if its early/mid/late. It should be a mid war unit as it was used in 1943 (albeit very few were made) but isnt in the mid war section.

[@ODST6262]

ATR were converted to rifle grenade guns. 50mm light mortars were withdrawn by 1943. They really weren't effective. Also, battery of 6x8 cm battaliion mortars became 2 x 8cm company mortars and the battalion mortar battery became 4 xc12cm mortars. Artillery. No German heavy infantry guns. The 15cm sIG18 is not the same as as the German 15cmn field howitzer. This error is continued in the SP versions Grille and Sturmpanzer IV. There are two Pak 43. 1943 Pak 43/41 was the 88L71 mounted on a sFH18 mount. Shortage of carriages. Late war version was a low mount like the Flak 88 with 360 degree field of fire. No Vet Pz III in 1943? Still main battle tank at Kursk and rest of 1943 . Pz IV (long) was just beginning to become main battle tank under 1943 Panzer reform. You missed the Grille and Sturmpanzer III and IV with 15cm infantry gun. Here it is carrying a 4000m gun-howitzer not a 15cm 10+ km howitzer. Borgward demolition vehical is a remote radio controlled vehicle. You need a Pz III, StuG IIIG, or Tiger I as a control vehicle with the right radio. Only one Borgward can be controlled at a time. These were used in separate tank/demo vehicle battalions. Early war SPW were scarce. Throughout the war only one in four (1 in 6 for SS) of the panzergrenadier battalions had 251 half-tracks. Exceptions 4 in 1st Pz 1941, 10th Pz 1 Bn. The other 14 Pz division had a single SPW company. 4 in Panzer Lehr 1944. Gross Deutschland also an exception. The Kf Sdz 254 AFV is an Austrian recon vehicle and is a wheel-track vehicle able to move as a tracked or wheeled vehicle. 1940 likely the last time seen. Vehicle transport and weapons. Infantry in vehicles cannot fire from the vehicles. Only vehicle weapons. Armored infantry OK but Germans often used their SPW as Combat vehicles. With one MMG and two (250/1 1 LMG) LMG and two SMG firing from the back they could assault. The rules for 251 allows you to mount one of the LMG team's LMG on the rear facing AA mount for +15 points. Note you already paid for that LMG. USA M3 half-tracks allow up to three MMG to be mount on the side (1 each) and rear (1) of a half-track. Historically, mounting a MMG on each side of a M3A1 half-track was done only by the LMG Squad using the two M1919A4 LMG carried by the squad. Note these LMG are also paid for twice. USA armoredbinfantry platoon had five halftrackes. Two had AA M2Hb .50 HMG. The other three a M1919A4 on the ring mount. The rules allow the USA player to replace the M1919A4 with M2HB. This is historic. Adding extra M1919A4 LMG is too. You can be sure they kept the M1919A4 if they were in working condition. Each half-track carried a bazooka. A squad would be ten men plus a bazooka team except 1st squad which is a figure Plt HQ and 5 man rifle squad plus a 2 man bazooka team. The LMG Squad is short men having two LMG and 6 men. However, to field the platoon you have to field a weapon platoon too. The extra Plt HQ and your 4th bazooka team ride in the LMG track. The 5th half-track carries a three man 60mm mortar team. No bazooka left in the rules (max is 4 teams) and the rest of the mortar squad is also missing. The mortar can't be fired from the vehicle. The other 5-7 men lugged ammo after deployment. You should be able to fire from a vehicle 5 men to th3 side, 2 to the front, 4 to the rear. Softskins provide no cover. Armored half-track vehicles and M7 Kangaroos provide hard cover vs weapons without AP. RAM Kangaroos provide cover vs. all infantry weapons and AT1-2 weapons. Firing at the infantry doesn't affect the vehicle except the pins on the passengers applies to the vehicle as well. Tank riders cannot fire if the tank is moving. Late war USA, BRIT, COMMONWEALTH infantry may ride tanks. No fire while on the tank. Mount, dismount as if a transport. Please forward to Warlords. Sources. BATTLE ORDERS by Osprey Books 3 on German Panzer Divisions. 2 on USA Armored Divisions Where are are the Osprey books on Brits and COMMONWEALTH tank and other division forces?

[@Nerfwerfer]

Thanks for the review, guys! I'm not trying to be negative, but I am having a hard time seeing any upside to this book. It just seems kind of meh.

[@deccabw]

Re the minors, you can see France and Italy getting their own books ?

[@TabletopTommies]

Hopefully, there's certainly enough material to include across the different fronts and years, as well as Axis and Allied lists for both nations. Phil

[@lucianaurelius2418]

Panzer 3 can’t be ace, Volksturm are nerfed, Gewher 43 sniper is gone. Wtf is this shit? Absolute massive middle finger from Warlord Games

[@nerdherd1819]

I'm feeling rather disappointed that this is how books are coming out. With the Core book, I hemmed and hawed about how maybe the copy/pasting could be excused, or at least understood. But now? This is it? Really? It feels extremely lazy. Further, while there are things that would be interesting to use, the opportunity cost in points is insane. Germans' most viable units do not seem to be either what they historically used nor what they are known for, in our cultural memory/idea of WW2. Not to mention, as you said, this doesn't even include theater selectors. I'm growing increasingly disappointed in Warlord. I know they're better than GW, but dang this still isn't exactly "good" and they aren't exactly a "small company" anymore.

[@e-4airman124]

just play version 2 until all of version 3 is out too difficult and unfair to play v3 now with everyone

[@jeffnorris3913]

Or just have everyone use the rulebook armies. V3 is soon much better than v2

[@DukeExeter]

I am most afraid of people abusing Defend the Fatherland to min max lists, for example all my artillery are now gebirgsjagers but all my infantry are SS fanatics except my small teams which are all fallshirmjager stubborn

[@MattVarnish1103]

I hear you. I think what they should have done is limit at the HQ level. IE if you take one of the Defend flavours in your HQ, it allows the rest of the units to be that same flavour. And then if you go rawdog Heer HQ, then you get 0-1 Other units. But then all the competitve gamers will cry if you try and make a historical game too historical

[@peter9314]

@@MattVarnish1103 Bolt action is no longer a historical game. With V3 it has become a somewhere, somehow, something fantasy game.

[@TabletopTommies]

Gotta be honest, because you have to take them veteran and pay points for the upgrade, Defend the Fatherland has minimal use for min max lists, where the aim is points efficiency. Jonny

[@RussellWright-qf1xn]

This. Sensible competitive players won't go near SS ​@TabletopTommies

[@DukeExeter]

@@peter9314 are you playing Early fantasy, Mid fantasy, or Late fantasy now?