Ep57: Pt 1: New Groundbreaking Research Dismantles Book of Mormon Authenticity w/ Dr. John Lundwall

Dr. John Knight Lundwall, who holds a PhD. in comparative myth and religion, joins Mormonish to provide a groundbreaking analysis of oral versus literary societies in the pre-Columbian Americas. His extensive scholarly work proves that it's impossible for a book with the literary complexity of the Book of Mormon to have even existed anywhere in the Americas during the Book of Mormon era. We consider this research to be incontrovertible evidence that the Book of Mormon is not a historical record. This episode is scholarly in nature and Dr. Lundwall does an amazing job of giving us a graduate-level course in just a few hours. Once you understand the concepts of oral versus literary societies, the conclusions will be obvious and the evidence clear. This is absolutely groundbreaking, and we believe is a completely new way to examine the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
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[@samueljeppsen9785]

I spent 4 hours listening and re-listening to this video. I have 3 pages of notes. Lundwell and Murphy have opened my eyes to things I never knew. Their evidences are clear, convincing and overwhelming. Lundwell who lays out the written language impossibilities and Murphey who shows numerous local occurances that were occurring in Joseph's local area, that match my favorite BOM characters and stories. I spent 4 hours (MBR) on that video as well with Murphy. Sad-sad-sad. The good news?? We don't need Joseph or the BOM to get to Jesus. We just need Jesus. And, we get a 10% raise.

[@2BlueCrayons]

And if you notice, the struggle Jesus or Yeshua goes through in the NT matches that mentioned by Lundwall concerning Ramses2 and Israel.

[@Costrada1]

This guy needs to be on every single podcast 😂❤ his voice and passion for his work is epic 🙏🏿😂

[@tsugal11]

Agreed. His passion comes thru and is contagious.

[@moesyah]

"to oral people, truth is cosmic fact. to literate people, truth is historical fact." this is a great episode!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Agreed Moe..this is a great statement!

[@charlesmendeley9823]

This is exactly where Mormons got it wrong. Talked to a missionary about Noah's ark and how it is a myth. He answered he believed it's literal history, and I asked him how he would get all animal species onto one boat and how the kangaroo would get to/from Australia. Besides I pointed out that Mormons believe the Garden of Eden is in Jackson county, Missouri ("It's in the musical!"), which he denied, but his companion admitted 😊. It was great fun to point out that all the apologetics he has faintly heard of do not fit together at all.

[@cynthianelson9244]

Having a spiritual experience can occur reading great literature, looking at epic art, loving a child, and many other ways.

[@TheSaintelias]

I would love to hear his view on all the points. This is an angle and technique of looking at the BoM I have never heard. Good job finding this gentleman.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

i watched all 4 episodes and am now starting over.first it's fascinating and second the lecture is very easy to listen to. thanks so much

[@barryrichins]

I would never have felt comfortable testifying to Joseph using a stone in a hat. I had to suspend enough disbelief to stay on my mission.

[@herbofallon965]

The Prophet Joseph Smith didn’t write the Book of Mormon. Neither did any of his associates. Anybody who thinks somebody just made up the Book of Mormon has more imagination than I do (a writer who knows what writing a novel is like). The Book of Mormon was written by the Prophets we say it was written by.

[@mattcooper1159]

@@herbofallon965so says someone who just believes. And you also believe that the “Laminates” got their darker skin because God changed their DNA within a generation or two? I could say more about this.

[@achedantes]

Same here. After a couple of months, had to suspend the disonance and just enjoy the ride and the people. I had fun and learned. Dont regret it.

[@isthechurchtrue]

It goes well beyond art like pottery. They supposedly used gold and silver coins, metal objects of all kinds, and built giant buildings within large cities. All those things would have lasted thousands of years. We still find ancient coins to this day in the middle east and throughout the Roman empire. Stone buildings last enormous amounts of time since stone does not just disappear. The Book of Mormon claims they had metal helmets, body armor, swords, chariots, etc... We can find the stone buildings and temples of the Maya, Aztec, and Inca but nobody can find the buildings of the Lamanites or Nephites.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Rod Meldrum can!!! Lol. Thanks for the comment!

[@alishabee369]

Freaking horrible liars. 😮

[@yvonneadams970]

I joined the church 50 years ago, not in America. The book of Mormon speaks about, living and following Jesus Christ. I was raised Protestant so I have always loved Bible I Have never heard anyone say the Bible has been corrupted Those who follow the Bible, I think it is wonderful, however some people don’t believe in baptism like my mother etc etc. everybody sings from a different hymn book (Bible) We don’t have prosperity pastors either. I have only ever learned to do good and be good. The Bible is full of history and stories from Abraham down. I believe we live the gospel of Christ fully and Equally with any other Christian church. We are taught not to criticise others beliefs, I can say I’ve nearly been killed in a 1 car accident. And have damage in my brain from the second accident.I have damage also which effects my nervous system the most painful condition on earth, it has the highest suicide rate in the world, I have had many Priesthood blessings, The only thing that would reduce the pain enough After the first accident Doctors Did not know if I was brain-damaged or paralysed, I was given a blessing from the priesthood And told I would recover, I was not brain damaged or paralysed, from the first accident. No one ever tell me that I do not follow The Lord Jesus Christ. When I was lying there in the hospital close to death, The Lord Jesus Christ was there with me.

[@shadowgirl8038]

I agree with you. I will pray for you.❤😊

[@yvonneadams970]

@@shadowgirl8038thank you very much❤

[@QuinnPrice]

I was so solid on the B of M that it was the last thing I studied when I was finally open to fully scrutinizing LDS truth claims. The JST was the first because I didn't know that much about it. I was able to let go of the B of M when I became aware of anachronisms. That's the equivalent of an iPhone found in a claimed Shaekespear diary.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@Quinn. 🌈🌈🌈🌈

[@JOSEVALDIVIESO]

This chapter I can’t recommended more! This was amazing and so much to learn from! I will watch it again and take notes! This is a peace of gold knowledge!

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Mormonish has come a long way in a short period of time --- I hope you guys win a bunch of awards for this episode.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Oh so kind…maybe we’ll win an Emma award!! Lol. Thanks for watching!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Our viewers and listeners are what inspires us! You guys are just awesome! Thank you so much for watching!

[@godsoffspring4195]

Just like all those journalists who won Pulitzers for Russian collusion in plain sight. 😆

[@davidholmes1233]

Then how do account of Hebrew poetry known as chiasms in the bible and in the book of Mormon. Ray treat explains this in the Restored Covenant Edition of the Book of Mormon.

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

@@davidholmes1233 by their claims Joseph Smith was a genius

[@Rcplanecrasher]

It’s crazy how many different and independent disciplines all strongly point to the Book of Mormon not being historical.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Yes! The key is the independent disciplines! You have hit it on the head! Thank you so much for watching! We’ll be having him on again soon! Stay tuned!

[@richardholmes5676]

Google Mormon doctrine vs Christian doctrine. You'll see the LDS have scripture together better than the other churches. This is proof that Latter Day Saint scripture is from above. This alone debunks the above bigoted video. Care to refute?

[@Themanyfacesofego]

​@@richardholmes5676Or ...you could actually watch this upload itself instead.

[@Rcplanecrasher]

@@richardholmes5676 1. How would you even quantify “have their scriptures together” I’m not sure what that even means. 2. What does that have to do with BoM historicity? Do you have anything to add to the arguments or ideas presented in the presentation?

[@Fred-mp1vf]

That's because the Adversary is working harder than ever to dissuade people from humbly seeking the truth and gaining a testimony of The Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ. He wants us to remain in darkness and not draw nearer to our Heavenly Father by embracing this sacred book of scripture. Moroni 10: 4 tells how we can know of its truthfulness for ourselves.😊

[@user-mn447]

STANDING OVATION 👏

[@barryrichins]

John, I gave my understanding of the BOM problems on The Backyard professor, episode 125. I wonder if you would check it out for me and tell me if I am in the historical ballpark. I'm a retired college professor in Spanish and English, who has lived in Europe, Mexico and the heartland. My podcast is nothing more than sharing my observations from my travels.

[@TheAmeled]

Hi Barry. I will watch it. Probably on the weekend though. Can you send a link in this thread?

[@YogaPainter]

Hands down, best podcast disproving the Book of Mormon. Why nitpick over steel and horses when the entire linguistic style is impossible? In 1 Nephi 19 the island kings say, "The god of nature suffers." But oral culture being polytheistic, they should have said, "The gods of nature, war, harvest, etc. . . . suffer." Joseph Smith projected his monotheistic worldview onto his fictional characters. Thank you for this brilliant, groundbreaking presentation.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We humbly agree! Thank you for listening!!

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Only 1% of people in 1st Century Palestine were literate. Why didn't I transfer any of my existing knowledge to my study of the BOM. In my head the BOM people were as literate as we are. Thankyou for educating me.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We agree!!! It’s amazing how many things we know but never make a connection! John did a great job pointing out the obvious!!

[@Ischyromys]

Fascinating perspective! I thought that Christianity was the biggest anachronism in the Book of Mormon, but it goes far deeper than that!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Turns out even the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are anachronistic!

[@jbitter5776]

Great episode! I’m leaving a comment to help the algorithm 😊

[@JamesBPreston]

the most significant podcast I have ever listened to !

[@TheAmeled]

Wow. Thanks for that comment.

[@TroyLeavitt]

This was a brilliant episode. Lundwall's explanations of how pre-literate societies operated was tremendously insightful. Subscribed!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I’m so glad you enjoyed the episode! We were really excited to have John on to share his research! We’re planning on having him on again very soon to go through some of his other points! Thank you so much for watching!

[@randyjordan5521]

It's logical, when you think about it. There were very few written languages, and almost everyone was illiterate, until Gutenberg invented the printing press and people started learning to read. Almost all primitive cultures had their own creation myths which were passed down orally. Even today, some false folk tales and old wives' tales which were passed down orally for hundreds of years are still repeated by lower-educated people. So the idea that there was this highly advanced Judeo-Christian society in Pre-Columbian America where all of these people could read and write and hear all of these speeches by kings and sermons by prophets and write things like a "title of liberty" are just not realistic. It all makes perfect sense if you view the BOM as being written in the 19th century by someone who didn't know anything about the history of America before the Europeans came over.

[@gracebe235]

Being excommunicated over the peep stone story years ago, is BEYOND offensive! Think of the lives that were messed with! The divorces, families torn apart, the humiliation of the poor individual, and yes, suicides over losing one’s family! And now?! It’s suddenly okay to not only talk about the peep stone, but it’s being PROMOTED?!!! IT’S ALL A LIE! What a massive case of gaslighting!!!

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

One of the most informative and interesting things I've heard in a long time

[@timrathbone7093]

Absolutely amazing discussion many kudos indeed. Can't wait for part 2.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I"m so excited to let everyone know that we'll be getting Part 2 out next week!! Stay tuned!!

[@ETBlair]

That was fascinating! I really learned a lot. Thank you.

[@danvogel6802]

Thanks John for the well-prepared presentation of some big ideas. Very interesting. Look forward to more.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thanks for your feedback! We really appreciate it! We’ll be doing another episode on more of John’s points very soon! He’s fired up and ready to go! Haha!

[@TheAmeled]

Thanks Dan. I'm very late to this table, and am reading your work. I have questions. Maybe we can chat sometime....

[@Tina06019]

I could admire Joseph Smith, Jr.’s creativity in writing the Book of Mormon, if he had not pretended it was revealed Hebrew scripture. I think I have appreciated this the most of all of the Mormonish videos/podcasts.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

It’s one of our favorites too!

[@richardholmes5676]

Joseph Smith didn't write the Book of Mormon.

[@courtneybrock1]

And all this time, the reasonably well supported conclusion that Smith plagiarized some dude’s novel was good enough for me. 😂 Seriously though, I’m a major nerd of religion and astrology of the Hellenistic world. (I have obscure hobbies.) And this video is an amazing compliment to understanding one of the most significant and transitionary points in world history. I’m genuinely floored by the scholarship presented here. (Mormonism aside.) At the same time, using a full historical-linguistic deconstruction of the BoM as a tool to understand these concepts is fascinating AND hilarious. Who said learning can’t be fun? Thank you.

[@Leinomaaea]

Such an awesome episode! I love your approach of comparison… Like before watching your episode, I’ve been thinking “How outrageous to engage a psychic!” Now I’m like, “Well, hell yah! Let’s go!” 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@mikelangdon5748]

Best presentation I’ve heard in a very long time!

[@Sadie37]

I just can’t get enough of this!!! It’s so good!!!!!!! ❤

[@funkyfreshtx]

1:47:19 not only the fact that there is no linguistic evidence of a nephite civilization anywhere but also, there is no military evidence of a nephite civilization anywhere which would have left 1-5% of the swords and shields in chariots and skulls and hair, and other items of battle

[@andrewcoburn1234]

This was fantastic information and an excellent presentation. Thank you thank you

[@patricianoel7782]

I’ve been thinking about this. When did people really start writing and reading? I just finished the New Revised Edition of the Old Testament. I loved reading it as literature rather than scripture. Thank you for your work to share the TRUTH.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great question! The Sumerians invented the first writing system in 3000 BC. Which by the way is prior to the date of the Tower of Babel so if the languages were not confounded until that date Sumerian must be the pure Adamic language!

[@Fred-mp1vf]

Actually Adam & Eve were taught to keep a written record. These and many other ancient scriptures will be brought forth by the hand of God, after we have humbled ourselves and embraced The Bible and The Book of Mormon.

[@funkyfreshtx]

this is really exciting. I’m excited to watch this for part series. I was a member for 40 years and one day decided to read the church history essays during Covid. I started with the book of Abraham one and then I went to the book of Mormon translation, because as a linguistic major I have always had a fascination with Egyptology and how it was tied to Mormonism. Fast forward three years, and I am no longer in the church, and I am now on a quest to understand ancient origins of Christian beliefs, not just Mormonism, where these concepts came from such as Satan and Christianity and the modern-day concept of Jesus, etc. This is exciting to watch. Subscribed!

[@cybercab]

Very interesting stuff. I’ve not heard the language theory before. That’s cool.

[@dysena11]

Wow, great stuff! Please bring John back for some more episodes on the things he said “we don’t have time for!” Each time I was like, “No! Tell me! I want to know!” 😆 like the popol vuh!

[@m4r1t4c4]

Please!

[@JC-vq2cs]

They danced the cosmos ~46:00....truly mindblowing as Rebecca said. Native peoples still keep remnants of this. Modern memory tips & hacks include creating imagery & stories. This presentation explains that as a moden attempt to rexapture ancient knowledge transmission. Absolutely fabulous insights.

[@anthonycampbell4534]

Mind blown away! Feel like I'm getting my PhD!! Great show!!

[@mmthueson]

This is THE BEST episode!!!!

[@keile513]

Having my mind blown by John Lundwall… awake half the night, hanging on every word! Thank you!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I know exactly how you feel! When John first outlined his concepts while we were on a field trip to look at rock art, I thought about what he said for days! And then I realized that we need to put this into some kind of formal presentation! We’ll be having him on soon to go through some of his other points! He told me he was sorry that the presentation had gone so long but I assured him that all of the viewers and listeners would really appreciate the time he took to explain the overall concept and then move to the finer points!

[@herbofallon965]

If you want to have your mind blown, read the Book of Mormon, which was translated in 65 days by a young farm boy who had two years of formal education. Dr. Lundwall doesn’t know diddly that will prove either Joseph Smith false or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints false. This channel is no more than the other anti-LDS channels that seem obsessed in trying to prove Joseph Smith and the Church false. Haha That was pretty funny. There is chiasmus in the Book of Mormon, as there is in the Bible. Joseph Smith knew nothing about chiasmus, but the Prophets of God who wrote the Book of Mormon did! The Savior raised at least one individual from the dead through the Prophet Joseph Smith. After Joseph Smith fell from a second story window on the day he was killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, one of the mobsters pulled a sword, thinking to cut the prophets head off. As he raised the sword in the air, a bolt of lightning came out of the sky, instantly killing that mobster. So the real facts of it all FAR OUTDO these three chuckling obsessionists.

[@herbofallon965]

You people are talking about Mayan writing, etc. Then I’m sure you know about the Temple of Kukulkan at Chichen Itza in Yucatán, Mexico. The Feathered Serpent that goes down the steps of that temple. Where did the idea of the feathered serpent come from? It came from the Savior’s teaching Be ye suchandsuch as doves, but wise as serpents. Jesus Christ visited His “other sheep” in ancient America in 34 A.D. and taught the same things in ancient America as He did in Palestine. My son is part Mayan because of his mother, who is from Merida, the capital of Yucatán.

[@iamjustonemom1950]

Tremendous episode that taught the diff between oral people and literate peoples. Fascinating. My brain is at peace now. I used to try and reconcile what I had studied about mesoAmerica civilization and what the BoM records about its civilization. Real history is tangible (excavations of mesoAm), fictional history can leave no archeological evidence because it isn't real (BofM). Thank you! But this knowledge makes the apologists into intellectually dishonest players (example: concocting this idea of 'loose' v 'tight' translation). So sad for them but destructive to their readers. This youtube should be the Sunday morning session of Oct Gen'l Conf...! I want more of John Lundwall's knowledge. Make a series, John!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We are planning to have another episode with John next week. Stay tuned!!!

[@sheliabryant3997]

@iamjust. X 93 million. 🌈🌈

[@user-sr2qz7uw2t]

Wow! This is mind boggling!

[@sachamo100]

Astoundingly informative! Thank you. I am so close to leaving the Church, this is so helpful to support the other information I have learned over the last year.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thanks for listening and keep up the critical thinking and analysis. Good luck and thanks for listening.

[@herbofallon965]

It will be a definite negative event in your life if you should leave the Church. The Church is true. I know for a fact it is. Satan is working overtime to try to pull members away. He knows his time is short.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Good luck. It is a tough step, but you will enjoy the freedom outside of the "salvation by works" church of Mormonism.

[@kylethedalek]

I donno what to do I’m seeing more people finding info that gives credits to LDS.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@@kylethedalek where do you encounter that? When I look at critical channels such as exmormon Reddit or post Mormon KZbin channels, it seems everybody and their dog are leaving.

[@iamjustsaying1]

How often will I continue to find myself saying, "How did I not notice this, before!!??"🤔🤦🏼‍♀️

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Totally agree!

[@user-mn447]

This, Dr. John, isn’t long enough!! This is great!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

There’s 3 more parts already released and a fourth on the way. Look at our playlist for all the John Lundwall episodes!

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Very interesting interview!

[@miriam-moore]

When I was teaching art at the Circle school in San Antonio Texas I was introduced to paula Underwood, who authored the Walking People and native American oral history that I think your guest would be very interested in the stories begin with the Ice Age and the cave paintings and follow their walk across Europe, and across the Land bridge, they called walk by waters along the Rockies and the west coast across the great plains up the eastern seaboard settling in the Great Lakes area. Every people they met, they gather stories of the people and their history.

[@paullovegrove583]

I liked the way he described how he had a spiritual experience reading the Book of Mormon at the age of 16 I was 20 years old. I think it’s because I wanted it. I had a lot of trauma during the 4 years before and I was born into the church although inactive. I was 56 years old when my shelf broke due to the false translation of the book of Abraham that began my search for what else are they lying about. I have found So much it’s incredible.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Our stories are similar. I was 50 and Book of Abraham did me in as well! Thanks for listening!

[@chucklearnslithics3751]

Not only do even Fremont leave a fingerprint in their petroglyph/pictograph panels and pottery, they're existing at the same time, in parallel, with the Book of Mormon cultures. Moroni visited right into Fremont heartland (Manti) even. American archaeology must have produced a signal of the BoM world by now, somewhere, and yet it's completely missing still...

[@gordonquickstad]

Knight presents a huge wall of logic.

[@djdalad]

amazing episode with a wealth of knowledge

[@rancierae]

I mentioned the idea that written language of the BOM was anachronistic in the America’s , my TBM husband said that lehi’s family brought the knowledge with them . How do I respond ?

[@juancarlosverdugosanchez4296]

I hope Dr. John Lundwall goes viral in all KZbin channels. I am going to subscribe to this channel.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

We hope so too! we are already working on getting him scheduled to go on some other podcasts! Thank you so much for watching! We really appreciate it!!

[@boysrus61]

This was excellent. Most above my head and definitely needs to be listened to twice, but Dr L breaks it down to a mostly understandable way. WOW. Great research.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

As Dr. Lundwall said this is a graduate level college course taught in 2 hours but he does a great job explaining this information. We have learned so much from our friend!

[@reddish22]

This was your best episode yet guys! Thanks so much for this, it’s such wonderful information.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

I loved it. I love digging deep into history. Looking forward for parts 2,3, and more

[@emphoenix7238]

Loved this! Thanks for the lesson!

[@redleaf4902]

John, this is me and my Inuit sis'n'law, driving around together: Me__So, do I turn north in 1 km? Her__You'll come to two tall buildings, the first one is taller than the 2nd, and the smaller one has white brick. You don't turn right at those buildings; you turn right one block after that. Me__So, do I turn north ? ☺

[@kraniodesign4555]

really really great stuff! This has been one of the most interesting podcasts I've listened to. thank you all very much!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We agree. We think this is the most important podcast we have done to date! The information is invaluable!

[@robertgrey8648]

Absolutely fascinating!! Thank you Rebecca and Landon for making this possible. Awesome time travel-trip to the origins of civilization, religion, and writing. I can see the connection now! Love it!! Yes, we need to have John back. His arguments are well founded and make perfect sense. What a brilliant mind! You guys rock :)!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thanks Robert! John is just so knowledgeable on all of this we knew it had to get out!

[@robertgrey8648]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Truly an eye opener!! This definitely needs to get out!

[@funkyfreshtx]

can I get a copy of these slides?

[@lilith4924]

I really enjoyed this lecture. Thanks for giving us another angle from which to evaluate BoM historicity. The problems that intellectual history poses to BoM historicity are, in my estimation, insuperable. I love the discussion of how writing changes society and am eager to read more about this. That said, I have some questions about the specifics of the model. I'm not convinced secondary orality replicates the thoughtworld of orality. Are we saying people in Chinese and Japanese cultures are unable to think abstractly because their scripts aren't alphabetic? (Surely not!) I'm also not persuaded that the alphabet is correlated empirically all that closely either with abstract reasoning or with monotheism. On the one hand we have the Romans continuing to worship a plethora of gods centuries after the invention of the alphabet (or much longer, if you count abjads, which are consonantal alphabets), and on the other hand we have the Mesopotamians, with a ludicrously difficult script, applying Pythagoras's theorem a thousand years before Pythagoras (although implicitly), solving quadratic equations, and making astronomical discoveries that wouldn't be rediscovered until the high Middle Ages, as well as creating a text-centric (elite) culture in which texts alluded to other texts, commentaries on texts were written, and incipient monotheism was not uncommon in the latest period. Just conceptually, I also don't see why the alphabet necessarily would lead to linear or abstract or non-cosmological thinking. It's a fantastic technology that facilitates literacy and can thereby restructure society; I can completely accept that it had social consequences that may even have laid the groundwork for intellectual discoveries. But I couldn't follow the claim that it should lead ineluctably to cognitive changes, abstract thought, or monotheism, let alone that it did. I'm also not sure the alphabet even catches on immediately once it's introduced, or that it couldn't get lost. You have moments in time like the Late Bronze Age in which Ugarit is using a cuneiform abjad (virtually--there are three syllabograms in an otherwise consonantal script), where the empires around it are using very difficult scripts, especially Hittite, Egyptian, and Akkadian. It would have been the perfect chance for people using the other scripts to simplify drastically. Instead, the Ugaritic script was completely lost and forgotten, and in Akkadian, the script got increasingly complicated as the number of values, or ways of reading, each sign exploded in the first millennium BCE, and the use of CVC (consonant-vowel-consonant) signs became increasingly popular, adding to the total number of signs in common use. In other words, a complicated script got increasingly complicated exactly as they were making more and more discoveries we would call "scientific" and conceptualizing the gods more often in monotheistic-adjacent ways. I'm also not sure why someone writing in 600 BCE wasn't active in an "alphabetic" culture. They'd had an abjad for centuries and centuries by this point; even if we don't want to draw a straight line between Canaan with its Paleo-Hebrew (basically Phoenician) script and the Semitic-speaking miners in the Sinai who were adapting Egyptian graphemes in the Middle Bronze Age to develop a proto-alphabet, we have epigraphic evidence in Canaan taking us back at least to Iron Age I. Why did it take so long for "alphabetic" thinking to "embed"? The Levant as a whole had been awash in abjads for a very long time in 600 BCE. On the other hand, in Greece we have the converse problem: After they adapted the Phoenician script to their language and (probably inadvertently) invented symbols for vowels, they made a number of intellectual advances fairly soon after, but without embracing monotheism--this in spite of the fact that they weren't marinating in abjads for centuries but instead had used an absurdly cumbersome script in the Late Bronze Age, Linear B, a script so ambiguous that it wasn't capable of recording complex texts, and had then reverted to a strictly oral culture for centuries, as evidenced by Homer. There also seems to be an implicit assumption that monotheism is intellectually superior to polytheism, since it's being associated with "abstract" thought. But is that true? By positing a fundamental unity in the cosmos, monotheism raises issues like the problem of evil that polytheism doesn't have to contend with. I would love to read something that spells out in more detail what qualifies as monotheism and why it's rational in a way that polytheism is not. I hope I don't come across as overly negative! Thank you for a stimulating interview.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Ahhhh…I think we’ll let John answer this!! Great questions!!!

[@patricianoel7782]

Thank you for the reply, Lilith. It alone was very stimulating.

[@TheAmeled]

Hi Lilith, Thank you for such a well thought out thread with questions. As this is not the place to have a full conversation (which I would be happy to do) I will just write a few notes about your observations. I would be happy to DM or discuss elsewhere. 1) Alphabetic writing did not create abstract thought. It created a new layer of abstract thought. It is much easier to de-couple thinking from nature when using abstract symbols instead of picture symbols. There was plenty of abstraction in both orality and secondary oral worlds, but in these worlds religious thinking and writing is always deeply tied to the observations of nature and cosmos and this interplay is the backbone of the metaphors used in the religious system. This is very different than the theology of the Book of Mormon, which is created from centuries of literate thinking. 2) I never said that alphabetic writing created the thinking behind mathematics, Pythagoras’s theorem, geometry, trigonometry, pre-algebra, etc. which we do find in secondary-oral systems. I’m not sure where you are coming from with these comments? 3) The alphabet was invented by polytheistic peoples, just like writing was invented by oral peoples. In addition, monotheism is an adaptation from polytheism. There is an ideological trajectory in many polytheistic systems towards monotheism (i.e., one central creator deity who has divine subordinates) but in all societies before alphabetic writing there is no monotheism that ever takes hold. There appears to be a few forays into monotheism in logo-syllabic or oral systems (14th cent. BCE with Atenism, monism in the Vedas, and maybe one tribe in Africa, but Atenism lasted one lifetime and all the other systems appear to be a form of monism with pantheistic qualities, or later adaptations of such). But I did say that there were no tight lines between categories, and that there is overlap. 4) Alphabetic writing is much easier to learn. In previous systems, it could take years to train a proficient scribe. In that same time, you could train a hundred scribes with an alphabet. It takes time to do this as in fact in most towns and cities there weren’t a hundred scribes to be trained. Still, the more people read in your society the more society will be changed by reading. It should be rather obvious, but the alphabet provides the structures that allow for the expansion of literacy. In addition, an alphabet helps de-couple the reader from the observations of nature which was the memory reservoir in prior systems. So, while the alphabet does not create abstraction or monotheism, it provides the channels that help establish new abstractions and staying power for monotheism. In other words, there is a sympathetic relationship between alphabetic literacy and monotheism. 5) Clearly there are other forces in play. The first true monotheism in history is Judaism. It formed after their religious cult center was destroyed. It appears therefore, that the greatest pressure to change the religious system was not in alphabetic writing but in the complete destruction of their way of life. Changes had to be made. The Jewish scribes made a bold move; they decided to make their religion portable, decentralized, therefore de-cosmologized, by writing the Torah. In order to make that stick, to convert the people to Torah, you have to train people to read Torah. The more people who read Torah the greater the chances your new religion will endure. Thus, alphabetic script is the tool you want. And the tool they used. And it worked. 6) I never said that monotheism is more rational than polytheism. 7) The thought-world of the Book of Mormon has been de-cosmologized. This is not the thought-world of any culture in the Americas. You cannot get the thought-world of the Book of Mormon from the thought-world in the pre-Colonial Americas. The cosmo-vision of the Book of Mormon is the result of centuries of abstract literate thought that has created a strict form of monotheism and historicism, which does not exist in the Americas. 8) I know of no example of a logo-syllabic system creating a monotheistic sermon culture or a linear historicist framework of thought. If you can point that out to me, I would be thrilled. Thanks. I look forward to your response should you choose to make one. I am happy to discuss. And thanks for watching the podcast.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@TheAmeled "The thought-world of the Book of Mormon has been de-cosmologized. This is not the thought-world of any culture in the Americas. You cannot get the thought-world of the Book of Mormon from the thought-world in the pre-Colonial Americas. The cosmo-vision of the Book of Mormon is the result of centuries of abstract literate thought that has created a strict form of monotheism and historicism, which does not exist in the Americas." This entire subject is way over my head intellectually, but as I read this comment, I thought of Alexander Campbell's critique of the BOM which he wrote in 1831: This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years. He decides all the great controversies - infant baptism, ordination, the trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministry, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, who may baptize, and even the question of freemasonry, republican government, and the rights of man. All these topics are repeatedly alluded to. How much more benevolent and intelligent this American Apostle, than were the holy twelve, and Paul to assist them!!! He prophesied of all these topics, and of the apostacy, and infallibly decided, by his authority, every question. How easy to prophecy of the past or of the present time!! But he is better skilled in the controversies in New York than in the geography or history of Judea.

[@lilith4924]

@@TheAmeled Hi John, Thanks so much for taking the time to write a very thoughtful, kind, and detailed reply, and for clearing up several misconceptions. (And thanks again for a very enjoyable lecture!) I definitely think the alphabet, especially an ideal alphabet, provides a much faster route to high literacy (if not the only route), and that has enormous consequences for a society. Just a couple of thoughts: You write, "It is much easier to de-couple thinking from nature when using abstract symbols instead of picture symbols." It seems like the way the graphemes in a script function is a separate issue from the degree to which they continue to resemble objects or phenomena in the world, though, since an alphabet can have graphemes that resemble things, like an ox, and a logosyllabographic script can have graphemes that, over time, have essentially become abstract. In Mesopotamia, where our earliest extant writing appears, the earliest graphemes are famously pictographic (as I'm sure you already know.). But as the system turns into cuneiform (based on the type of object they used to incise the symbols), the resemblance of the graphemes to objects in the material world, whether natural or humanmade, becomes increasingly fuzzy, and already in the third millennium BCE it's difficult to see what many of the graphemes were intended to represent; by the first millennium, the script is very divorced from its pictographic origins. The fact that they changed the direction of their script 90 degrees at some unknown point contributes to that. But the script continues to be polyphonic and logosyllabographic. Ugaritic and Old Persian are cuneiform scripts that function largely alphabetically, and I wonder whether the graphemes of those scripts are qualitatively different in form (not function) from the Akkadian script. From my perspective, almost all cuneiform looks equally abstract, whether it's from an alphabetic script or a logosyllabographic script. You write, "I know of no example of a logo-syllabic system creating a monotheistic sermon culture or a linear historicist framework of thought," and "There was plenty of abstraction in both orality and secondary oral worlds, but in these worlds religious thinking and writing is always deeply tied to the observations of nature and cosmos and this interplay is the backbone of the metaphors used in the religious system." I suspect I'm just misunderstanding what "historicist" means or how a logo-syllabic "system" relates to a culture using a logosyllabographic script, or what constitutes religious writing, but my initial impression is that there are scads and scads of religious texts in Mesopotamia that have nothing to do with observations of nature, and some that are potentially even historicist. What about the Babylonian Chronicles? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Chronicles) They're famous for having a detached tone that's not overtly propagandistic, although I realize they're written very late in Babylonian history, and the culture is besieged by alphabets by this time (especially Aramaic). But what about the much earlier Weidner Chronicle? (www.livius.org/sources/content/mesopotamian-chronicles-content/abc-19-weidner-chronicle/) It recounts actual historical events in Babylonian history by explaining them as the god Marduk blessing or punishing people for sacrificing to him or failing to sacrifice to him (admittedly this is completely anachronistic, since Marduk was not an important god in the periods being described). What about Ludlul bel nemeqi as an example of a religious text that's not a ritual and not about nature? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlul_b%C4%93l_n%C4%93meqi) It describes someone suffering every conceivable problem before being saved by Marduk. I realize your interview was very condensed and you didn't have time to go into a lot of particulars in detail, so I'm sorry if I come across as nitpicking. I'm in complete agreement with you that the Book of Mormon absolutely cannot be historical, and it's not just because of the material culture and the DNA. The thoughtworld of the Book of Mormon is fundamentally 19th century American Protestantism. The apologists don't need an attestation of the name Nahom in Yemen; that's not sufficient. They need an entire alternative intellectual history that's plausible, and they simply don't have anything close to it. I love any discussion of these issues.

[@robinnetto6794]

I am blown away. I listened 2 times already. I found the information in showing JS took from his world but this shows it is not Linguistically possible!!!!!! I want to know more!!!!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We’re going to get John back to finish his points!

[@amazinmaven]

Fun to see such an animated character!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Ha! He’s so awesome! I really hope he gets a chance to go on some other podcasts! This info is fascinating!!

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

Satan hates The Book of Mormon because it brings its readers closer to Jesus Christ. It brings readers more faith in Christ, more hope, more peace. It helps the reader desire to be more forgiving, patient, kind, more aware of those in need and a desire to comfort and bless those struggling. It causes a desire in the reader to seek Christ’s grace in changing to be more like Him and to see others a little bit more through Heaven’s eyes. Satan hates all things peace filled and hope-filled so it’s no wonder he attacks The Book of Mormon every chance he gets.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

The Book of Mormon is very poorly written. It could be reduced by 30% at least, and still carry the same meaning. Smith took blocks of Isaiah to fill the void created when he lost 116 pages of the text.

[@brianspackman6368]

@@ThemanyfacesofegoSo how do you explain the Isaiah variants in the BofM that find support from Isaiah versions that were discovered and/or published after the BofM?

[@jordanwoods462]

1:04:35 was a total lightbulb moment for me. This totally explains why the old and New Testament seem like two different worlds sometimes.

[@suthatheplee2777]

This is a fantastic episode that grounds us in reality! This shows the force behind literacy and text. Great presentation!!!

[@lauraparis2023]

Great program ❤

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thank you so much! We really appreciate our viewers and listeners! Thank you for watching! Stay tuned for more!

[@countkolob]

Very important episode. Funny(ish) sidenote. I started listening to this on Apple Podcasts and thought they were talking to Adam Corolla at first. John Lundwall sounded so much like him (to my ears). I was thinking, "When did Adam become an expert on this stuff?" LOL

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Funny story we tried to get Adam Corolla on to discuss this find but he wasn’t available so we got John to do it!!! Glad we did! Lol We didn’t catch that but now that you mention it we’ll listen for it. Thanks for the comment and thanks for listening!

[@Leinomaaea]

Interestingly, many of the Polynesian cultural dances performed by Mormon students at the Mormon-owned Polynesian Cultural Center are about worshiping their island gods as well as channeling the spirits of their ancestors.

[@aredesuyo]

Mormons are pagans, but they just don't realize it yet.

[@joeladams8678]

Nothing about our Heavenly Father here, or His son. The kind of reasoning you can expect in a great and spacious building.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We were at our individual homes when we shot this and none of those are that great or spacious…sorry! Thanks for listening!

[@joeladams8678]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 This is what Lehi beheld.,The pride of the world.,When they are learned they think they are wise.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@@joeladams8678 THIS WASN'T LEHI's own perception or statement. It is stolen from NON-jst and inserted into his confabulation. And since only actual Biblical scriptures referenced in SS or elsewhere are wild strawberry pickings by the manual, no actual Scripture is even used in this org. When I first joined, I was told that ,"We study the bom for one year and the BIBLE the next." Always alternating. Since 1993, THIS NEVER HAPPENED. IT. NEVER. OCCURRED.

[@smuggythornton]

I am always amused when this type of "experts" are so very certain, except when new or current information comes along (or existing information they have ignored), We often dumb down civilizations because "there is no way the could have been so advanced" It is almost as if the want to insult our intelligence.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

John welcomes any peer reviewed evidence to counter his claims. He studies these cultures for a living and he does not dumb down these civilizations. He fully respects and understands them more than any of us and is an expert even living in the field where they lived to better understand them. He has devoted his life to researching these incredible civilizations, but just because they’re intelligent does not mean they have a writing system. As a scholar, John is willing to change his mind when new information comes out and update that information. Unfortunately, religionists believe despite any information to the contrary, which is what is really amusing!

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Excellent presentation! Thanks! One question that has always bugged me like tiny rocks in my socks is why, in the first place, it would ever be necessary to have an ancient record of God's dealings and revelations to an ancient people in order for a modern people to know what God wants. Obviously, in the case of Mormonism, that arrangement simply means that God's will is being communicated to us as second-hand, third-hand and fourth-hand information transmitted through a rock that functions like a Mattel magic 8-ball, and the accuracy of the information that is sort of being communicated that way is also totally dependent on the limited comprehension of a failed 19th century treasure finder...and all of modernity simply has to trust the word of that kid as to what he was really doing and just trust that he wasn't lying his posterior off. Why can't God just have direct dealings with modern people that are clear, plain, logical and unmistakable? None of this "is it God or is it Fraud?" uncertainty, please. How incompetent or lazy is God that he just can't be bothered to do anything other than provide a weird book that is supposedly based on records kept by some guys in an ancient civilization for which there is no reasonable evidence, all transmitted through a shady 19th century character who seems to have always been more of a scammer than a saint? "Oh look, Molly, how wonderful this book is. Here it tells us about a guy who chops off a drunk man's head in order to steal some brass plates. Here it tells us about how that same guy single-handedly built a trans-oceanic ship out in the middle of the desert. Here it tells us how the brothers got into a lot of fights with each other, so God split them up and cursed all the descendants of two of the brothers with dark skin in the hopes that the extended family would remain permanently divided and not be confused as to who their enemies are. Here it tells us about how a guy impressed a king by single-handedly chopping off the arms of 100 guys. Here's a story of a 'Daughter of Jared' who danced for a decapitation just like the 'Daughter of Herod' and that even rhymes! And here are a bunch of theological preachings that are basically the same things that many 19th century protestants were talking about. What a great book! Now I know why we don't really need God or Jesus to communicate directly with us and appear to us. We have this book!"

[@sweetafton5655]

They need the murky, convoluted scriptures to cause confusion and produce several different interpretations in order to get more people to feel they need some bearded wonder guy in the sky to set them straight in their search for truth.

[@isthechurchtrue]

@TEAM__POSEID0N , Here is some food for thought for you. Why did Joseph Smith need to get the gold plates if he didn't even know how to read them or even use them during the translation process? Joseph Smith got the "translation" by looking at a rock in a hat. The gold plates were not involved at all. Also why did the angel take the gold plates away after they were "translated"? Wouldn't it have been beneficial and a testament to the world if some of the gold plates were shown publicly? Joseph Smith supposedly struggled to get the gold plates which included digging up the body of his dead brother Alvin but never used them for the translation or showed them publicly.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@isthechurchtrue Certainly. I actually at one point or another asked myself all of those questions. Ultimately, those questions helped me realize how silly Joseph Smith's stories are at the most basic level. In other words, the whole idea that any of those stage props (in the drama that Joseph Smith just made up) would be necessary for anything was ludicrous. If God had an important message or book's worth of messages to deliver, God could just deliver it all in perfect form. All of that nonsense about visiting the Hill Cumorah at special times over four years, retrieving golden plates with undecipherable ancient writings on them, magic stones, an angel taking the plates up to heaven so that nobody could examine the evidence, hats and magic rocks, breastplates and magic spectacles... and yadda yadda yadda....all that nonsense, in retrospect, was obviously just a farrago of religio-occult-magic nonsense used as a marketing narrative to sell a crappy book. The only reason I ever took any of it seriously in the first place was because, as a child, I was surrounded by adults telling me it was all true. It was like being surrounded by adults telling me from early childhood that Santa Claus was real...only the adults actually believed that Santa was real and told me that people who don't believe in Santa are bad and defective people.

[@ajadamsv9208]

Great episode!

[@tgrogan6049]

Fantastic job!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Fantastically informative and powerful

[@anthonyquinata8918]

All I say is WOW! 🎉

[@t.o.g.sakafay2868]

only halfway through - & I got to say this is absolutely fascinating! Pls pls more of this

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We knew when we discussed these concepts with John while out exploring Native American rock art that everyone needed to hear this! He does a great job explaining the concepts and is so knowledgeable!

[@katphyre]

2.5 hours just went by in a flash. I loved this episode. The information was so clear and we'll presented. Definitely have him back as soon as possible.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We will actually be posting another episode with Dr. Lundwall on Friday! Stay tuned!

[@maxjenkins7139]

This is amazing He is so right. Thanks

[@Gideonslc]

This is awesome! Thank you!

[@patricianoel7782]

I recommend reading “Sapiens” by Yuval Harari. . Interesting read about early human history. New York Times Bestseller. Excellent!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Couldn’t agree more!!! Rebecca and I met when she posted a picture of the book she was reading and asked if anyone else had read it…I had and the rest is Mormonish!

[@sirria100]

Interesting video that anyone can learn from. It should be noted, however, that the BOM verses that you cite about records are specifically referring to the brass plates, which Moroni states in Ether 4 are hidden and only to be revealed to the faithful. Moreover, Mormon hides other records in Mormon 6:6. The records were passed down through the patrilineal line of the Nephite prophets going back to Lehi himself. They were shared and used to convert the Lamanites, but they were still only kept and passed down through the generations of the Lehite line of prophets. So, I don't see how the passages you refer to in the video would necessarily entail an entire literate society.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Dr. Lundwall will explain this on his next episode coming out on Thursday. Thanks for the comment!

[@sirria100]

​@@mormonishpodcast1036You're welcome! Also, even though I imagine John would need more than a couple of days to research it, could he at least touch on the sunken cities of Meso America and the sunken Nephite cities in 3 Nephi 8? Deniers never really address this, and it would be good to hear a critical perspective from an expert. Thx.

[@kelseyreynolds2261]

Where can we go to find the sources around when literacy started in Israel? What I’m seeing online says much further back then 4th or 5th century BC. I just want to understand if there was literacy in Jerusalem in 600BC. It’s hard to know which sources to trust.

[@TheAmeled]

Started rather early. There were literate scribes running the city state during King David. It is suggested that Solomon was known as the wise king not because he was wise (just read the biblical text to see he was somewhat of your average aristocrat) but that he built a library to gather the collective wisdom of the people. Literacy begins with the invention of writing. Alphabetic literacy takes off at the end of the second millennium BCE and is fully established a thousand years later.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Cuneiform, the first writing system started in the 3rd millennium BCE and spread throughout the Middle East. Writing systems improved and developed but Hebrew didn’t develop as a language until around 1000 BCE and that is the oldest known Hebrew writings but like Dr. Lundwall points out these oldest writings were songs and psalms based on oral traditions.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Thought that was implicit in whole notion of bom. Or at least what js was counting on. I realize those "expectations" were of 20th-century grammar-school educated America; I failed to consider that perhaps most of js' audiences would not likely have known this. Now I can better understand how he got away with the initial sham. Still can't grasp how it not only continued but also continued to inflate. 🥵🥵🥵

[@Marellenmac1964]

This was great! Thanks, John!

[@cindihunter9119]

Love this! Wished that I could have been part of this field trip! What a treat! ❤

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

It was pretty amazing! We are planning another trip with John in September to go look for some elusive Fremont Indian petroglyphs! Will also be having John on again soon to go through some of his other points!

[@sheliabryant3997]

At 2:20:12. Yes, they are moving in that direction, which is what I was referencing in my comment about Jesus' use of parables and THE FACT THAT an effective parable has to have A LITERAL BASIS IN A LITERAL REALITY. And, BRAVO, Dr. Knight, to your reply on that topic. AMEN TO THAT REPLY. They have already brought them- selves to the reeds' edge of the pus- pond.

[@robinnetto6794]

My 3rd time watching. I am completely intellectually inspired. I am so grateful for the wisdom , knowledge and time John put into his studies and love for truth!!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Wow three times, that is incredible. But we don't blame you! Thanks for watching!

[@kera9389]

👌🏻 wonderful information. Thanks for this episode.

[@CMO999]

I found this presentation fascinating and enjoyed it. But as far as my faith in the restored gospel, it's not a problem. There was no writing in the heartland because the Lamanites vigorously destroyed all the records, that was the whole point of hiding up the Nephite record. You also say some strange things about the church: no one is hiding any history. The general authorities advise transparency. Also the internet, if anything, is helping the church. Missionaries are finding a lot of success on social media since COVID. And I can instantly find any general conference talk going back to the 1970s! God bless.

[@johnnyscoolstuff8427]

you are living on fantasy Island, the church has never been fully transparent about its ugly past,(Joseph Smith’s lying to Emma and church members about his taking on 33 wives 11 of which were already married.) about its ever changing doctrine or its illegal hiding of millions of dollars hence its 5,000,000 SEC fine. Just to name an few. I have been a member more than 50 years and the church has changed so much it’s hardly recognizable.

[@toducate]

Amazing! Just finished and it blew my mind! More of this please!!! I can’t believe how every word, every sermon, every historical reference in the BoM is anachronistic. Great job bringing him on and distilling it so I could follow. Also, haha great little joke about the baboon being a tight translation. I caught that and genuinely lol! 😂

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Sphincter babonis sacer est.

[@randyjordan5521]

Holy sacred baboon anus, Batman!

[@tedsmith8369]

Awesome episode guys! Although I get a little frustrated at TBM’s for walking around like zombies and not investigating. We all certainly know that they are some of the nicest people. The problem is this corporation that masquerades as a church and It’s high time they are called out on their B.S.! Maybe we can make them loose a billion or two:)

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Love the Mormon people!!!! Hate the Mormon hierarchy!!!

[@sarahaas183]

Not zombies. People like you, who are doing their best and grappling with faith issues and more, while still honoring our promises to God. Sometimes faith is just sitting with really hard questions, and not reacting right away.

[@tedsmith8369]

@@sarahaas183 Hi Sara, faith is the belief in somethings that we can’t prove. We know that Joseph Smith participated in illegal treasure digging using the same rock in a hat that he supposedly translated the book of Mormon with. We know that not only did he participate in polygamy, but he also participated in polyandry, and hid this from Emma for 10 years. I find this disgusting. We also know that he started an illegal bank in Kirkland Ohio, then, when the bank was failing, he snuck off in the middle of the night, leaving Emma, and his child, also disgusting. Then when William law called him out on polygamy, he excommunicated him. William law, then produce a paper in the Navoo expositor that Joseph didn’t like so he burned it down, again disgusting. We also know beyond his shadow of a doubt, that the book of Mormon is one of the most demonstrably false books ever written. I’m sorry, Sarra but if you disagree with anything that I’m saying, then you need to read your own church history, it’s all there, you see the church has the right all of its history, because they were getting sued for not declaring the truth. It may be hard to find, and they tuck things away in footnotes, but it’s all there. People wonder why ex Mormons are so angry. Yes I am angry to find out that my tithing money went to build a shopping mall and now to find out that the church leaders were illegally investing and hiding over $150 billion, again just disgusting. It’s not a church that dabbles in business. It’s a business, that dabbles in religion. They sit on a mountain of money and throw a few Pennie’s at the poor. You have to ask yourself, what would Jesus think?

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

"There were many books in existence at the time of the Spanish conquest of Yucatán in the 16th century; most were destroyed by the Catholic priests. Many in Yucatán were ordered destroyed by Diego de Landa in July 1562. Bishop de Landa hosted a mass book burning in the city of Mani in the Yucatán peninsula..... Alonso de Zorita wrote that in 1540 he saw numerous such books in the Guatemalan highlands that "recorded their history for more than eight hundred years back, and that were interpreted for me by very ancient Indians". Wik The Maya did write their history, however the Maya are not the Book of Mormon people. They may have lived near by but they were not the Nephites.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thank you for the comment. This was not a part of our discussion because it is not relevant as you stated 800 years back from 1540 is 740 CE, hundreds of years too late for the Nephites and thousands of years too late for the Jaredites. As you indicated the Mayans are the only civilization in all of the Americas with a writing system during the Nephite era and as Dr. Lundwall pointed out that only allowed them to indicate who, when and what they did they did not produce long, historical narratives like the Book Of Mormon. Also as you stated the Mayan’s were not Nephites which strengthens the argument that there is zero archeological, DNA or literary evidence for any Book of Mormon peoples and had there been a civilization that was more advanced than the Mayan’s with millions of people as the Book of Mormon states they would show up in the archeological record. Thanks for listening.

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 We dont know how far back the library's of history went, this Catholic priest only saw 800 years of it. Like the Spanish burned the Aztac and Mayan records when the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites they would have destroyed their record too. The Olmec monuments were systematically destroyed around 400 bc. Just about the time the Jaradites were destroyed and their king carved his own monument. Creating those monuments isnt something Lehi's family would do, do you see one erected to Moses? You have to judge the Book of Mormon by what it says and not by what you think it says. When they split Nephi's sister went with him. That left the sons of Ishmael without wives and Laman and Lemuel with just their families. Maybe 15 people. That little handful did not become the large nation of Lamanites we read of. In Alma 18 where Lamonii speaks of a Great Spirit that looks like a man, it says; "Now this is the Great Spirit of whom our fathers have spoken. 5 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit" Where did that come from? From Ether where the Brother of Jared sees the finger of the Lord in his spirit. Ammon was talking to descendants of the Jaradites, oh maybe a little bit of Laman thrown in there but any Hebrew traditions and writing skills were long gone. The Book of Mormon uses the word Lamanite like the Bible uses the word Gentile. There's us and them. Ammon would not have known who the Jaradites even were. The Jaradites weren't alone either, they were trading and mixing with other people also. In one of their wars they chase the people who would not join them off the land. Did you know the Olmec were some of the first people to use the place value of zero, this gave them geometry and the ability to build their pyramids. They were not illiterate people. To build those buildings they had to communicate, suppliers had to be ordered, designs had to be discussed. In the Bible when Zacharias writes the name John he does so on a writing tablet made of wood and filled with beeswax. These tablets go back thousands of years and how many do we have today, only a handful. That doesn't mean they weren't there. With the new lidir technology archeologist know they have barely scratched the surface of what is there. But, dont hold your breath waiting for a sign saying Welcome to Zarahemla, it was destroyed around 400 ad.

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 1Nephi 1:2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. “Scholars have long believed that ancient Semitic alphabets were derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Thus, the symbol for house (Hebrew bayit) came to stand for the sound b, the symbol for water (Hebrew mayim) for the sound m, etc. This system was then adopted by other Near Eastern peoples, although which used it first remains unknown. Speaking at a recent academic conference, the archaeologist Douglas Petrovich claimed to have deciphered the earliest extant inscriptions in this writing system-found on several Egyptian stone tablets-by reading them as if they were Hebrew. The inscriptions date to the 19th century BCE, when, according to the biblical account, the Israelites settled in Egypt.” Advancing Jewish thought, Mosaic Nov 2016 An Egyptian Birthplace for abc’s (science 1999) “Until now, the earliest use of the alphabet had been traced to Semites in Sinai, who left writing on the walls of a turquoise mine sometime between 1700 B.C. and 1500 B.C. They democratized writing by simplifying hieroglyphics--a system requiring knowledge of hundreds of symbols--to an alphabet comprising fewer than 30 symbols, says Chip Dobbs-Alsop, a Semitist at Princeton Theological Seminary. To express the Semitic language, the letters were derived from hieroglyphics: "aliph," for example, which meant "ox," became the letter A (5th sign from left in inscription); "bet," for house, became B (2nd from right). And a zigzag hieroglyph meaning water became today's "M" "...in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." How did Joseph know?

[@harmagician1]

Comparing Mayan literacy to Book of Mormon writing is silly because the two societies are not the same. Claiming anachronisms in the Book is denying that the Spirit gave the inspired translation in man's own learning and understanding. This pedantic attack on the Book sounds great if you want to disbelieve, but to TBMs who have a spiritual witness of its truthfulness, it's wasted time. I have a PhD in theoretical psychology and spent many years studying science, epistemology, and ontology. I assure you there is nothing here or out there that presents a serious attack on Book of Mormon faith, unless you want to disbelieve.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

John did not compare the Mayan literacy to Book of Mormon writing..he compared all writings in the Americas to Book of Mormon. Mayan was the most advanced of the written languages and it was not advanced enough to produce the Book of Mormon showing that there was no people in the Americas capable of writing in literary style. Assurance with no evidence is no assurance at all. All the evidence for an historical BOM fails…all of it! Not one of the sciences agrees with the Book of Mormon. It fails every DNA, archeology, linguistics, anthropology, biology and common sense test you throw at it. I guess theoretical psychology might be the only science in which the BOM might pass but then again it is theoretical!

[@brianspackman6368]

@@mormonishpodcast1036Uto-Aztecan language family has over 1000 words/phrases that are similar to Hebrew. That is an impossible coincidence. How did Hebrew end up in northwest Mexico/ southwest US language? The Book of Mormon gives a plausible explanation. To say there is no linguistic evidence to support the BofM is said in ignorance or willful dishonesty.

[@philmabarak5421]

This is the best of the internet. This is better than any college course. This will be the best wisdom one will ever encounter, right up there with Jordan Maxwell and Peter Joseph. And I'm only an hour into this.

[@bettye4003]

Amazing!!!!! Thank you

[@loriz9]

This was soooo awesome! I want to listen again. Mind blown! More people need to hear this!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I agree more people need to hear this! I’m hoping that some of my other bigger podcaster friends will pick John up and have him on their program! Thank you so much for watching!

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Funny, I thought the "authenticity" of The Book of Mormon had already been dismantled.😂

[@TheAmeled]

Truth

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

We should have said, “Again!”😂

[@randyjordan5521]

It's fun to find even more ways.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

​@@rebeccabibliothecaAgain - and again - and again! 😂

[@barryrichins]

The program keeps going on. You mentioned what you've been taught in you life time. I would like to sometime somwhere share my growing up and living in Mormon culture for 82 years: my life time.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thank you so much for watching! It really blew our minds too! We plan to have John on again very soon to continue talking about his other points!

[@randyjordan5521]

Please do.

[@janetcox4873]

Cultural differences of oral and textual cultures that Dr. John speaks of relates with the 'legal v. Confucian (or relationship-based social norms)' in China that goes back way before Christ and is still a very live dichotomy in Asia today (and in Russia, Africa, and even US and Europe just below the surface). MesoAmerica is a relationship-based culture, not legal. Everything in the Book of Mormon is the 'legal' perspective. AND, What the hhaaiiiillll is 'reformed egyptian'?? ... the whole 'hieroglyphs' being treated as letters is freaky to me. Like Chinese, hieroglyphs are concepts, not letters (unless your British, then everything is a letter and will pay tax to the King).