Ep57: Pt 1: New Groundbreaking Research Dismantles Book of Mormon Authenticity w/ Dr. John Lundwall

Dr. John Knight Lundwall, who holds a PhD. in comparative myth and religion, joins Mormonish to provide a groundbreaking analysis of oral versus literary societies in the pre-Columbian Americas. His extensive scholarly work proves that it's impossible for a book with the literary complexity of the Book of Mormon to have even existed anywhere in the Americas during the Book of Mormon era. We consider this research to be incontrovertible evidence that the Book of Mormon is not a historical record. This episode is scholarly in nature and Dr. Lundwall does an amazing job of giving us a graduate-level course in just a few hours. Once you understand the concepts of oral versus literary societies, the conclusions will be obvious and the evidence clear. This is absolutely groundbreaking, and we believe is a completely new way to examine the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
***How to DONATE to Mormonish Podcast:
If you would like to help financially support our podcast, you can DONATE to support Mormonish Podcast here: Mormonish Podcast is a 501(c) (3)
donorbox.org/m...
WE HAVE MERCH! If you’d like to purchase Mormonish Merch, you can visit our Merch store here:
www.etsy.com/s...
We appreciate our Mormonish viewers and listeners so much!
Don't forget to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to Mormonish Podcast!
Contact Mormonish Podcast: [e-mail]

[@samueljeppsen9785]

I spent 4 hours listening and re-listening to this video. I have 3 pages of notes. Lundwell and Murphy have opened my eyes to things I never knew. Their evidences are clear, convincing and overwhelming. Lundwell who lays out the written language impossibilities and Murphey who shows numerous local occurances that were occurring in Joseph's local area, that match my favorite BOM characters and stories. I spent 4 hours (MBR) on that video as well with Murphy. Sad-sad-sad. The good news?? We don't need Joseph or the BOM to get to Jesus. We just need Jesus. And, we get a 10% raise.

[@2BlueCrayons]

And if you notice, the struggle Jesus or Yeshua goes through in the NT matches that mentioned by Lundwall concerning Ramses2 and Israel.

[@cybercab]

Very interesting stuff. I’ve not heard the language theory before. That’s cool.

[@countkolob]

Very important episode. Funny(ish) sidenote. I started listening to this on Apple Podcasts and thought they were talking to Adam Corolla at first. John Lundwall sounded so much like him (to my ears). I was thinking, "When did Adam become an expert on this stuff?" LOL

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Funny story we tried to get Adam Corolla on to discuss this find but he wasn’t available so we got John to do it!!! Glad we did! Lol We didn’t catch that but now that you mention it we’ll listen for it. Thanks for the comment and thanks for listening!

[@Leinomaaea]

Interestingly, many of the Polynesian cultural dances performed by Mormon students at the Mormon-owned Polynesian Cultural Center are about worshiping their island gods as well as channeling the spirits of their ancestors.

[@aredesuyo]

Mormons are pagans, but they just don't realize it yet.

[@LDSChristian]

Congratulations on creating an interesting topic for me to dismantle. I love a challenge. I am sure I'm among the most knowledgeable of people who has watched this video entirely. The problem is it's mixed with half-truths and false assumptions. With the most fundamental issue being the fallacy of false dilemma. Have you ever watched the Star Trek: TNG S05.E02 "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"? Great performance by Patrick Stewart. Captain Picard basically has to learn a language filled with metaphors, syllogisms, and mythology in order to communicate with the native people. A straightforward translation wouldn't work. The Mayan hieroglyphs are somewhat similar in nature. A word-for-word translation doesn't work without understanding the social and mythological constructs that created the word in the first place. For example, the god "Kukulcan" is literally translated into the kukul bird meaning "feathered" or "plumened" and the snake "can" meaning "serpent". So, Kukulcan was basically the same thing as the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl from the quetzal bird and coatl snake. What you don't hear is their metaphorical meanings behind them. The bird represents "air" and the snake represents "water". So, both Kukulcan and Quetzalcoatl are the "god of air and water". Jesus was also known as the god of air and water who calmed storms (see Mark 4:39) So, we can have a direct translation from Mayan into English and not have a clue about what it means. That's only part of the issue. One of my heroes, Hugh Nibley, once said, "Don't underestimate the ability for evidences to disappear." That's especially true in a jungle. That's not to say we can't find hints of those evidences. Diego Duran wrote, "An old Indian told me that when the Papa passed through Ocuituco he left a large book there, four fingers in height and WRITTEN IN CHARACTERS. I was extremely moved to possess this book and thus went to Ocuituco, where I begged the Indians in the most polite way to show it to me. But they swore that six years before they had burned it since they could not understand the writing. The latter was not similar to ours, and since they feared that it might bring harm to them, they destroyed it." (Gods and Rites, Ch 1) As we can see, they DID have books with characters. But, the most efficient way was using glyphs. When you are short on paper and other materials, you are going to use the most efficient way. That's how their letters and sermons would have been shared, with the full written record being kept for safe keeping. THAT is why it's a false dilemma fallacy. They would have had BOTH types of writings. We have evidence of BOTH types of writings. But, they used what was most efficient for their letters. That's what we see in Mesoamerica. Remember, the Spanish friars burned their books and records. They had metal plates (yes, we've found metal plates) of gold. Those would have been among the first to be melted down to send back to Spain. Their paper was destroyed either by the Spanish or disintegrated through time. But, we still have their oral histories that the Spanish wrote down. And those stories match the Book of Mormon to a tee. You can click on my name to see my presentation on the evidences.

[@TheAmeled]

Flawless apologetics.

[@LDSChristian]

@@TheAmeled yes, it is a flawless defense, thanks.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

“Don’t underestimate for evidences to disappear” that is a strong argument! I think you should watch part 3 if you think there were plates found I think your argument for plates may disappear too!

[@LDSChristian]

@@TheAmeled snark and sarcasm aside, are you even aware of the writings of Ixtlilxochitl, Diego Duran, and the Boturini Codex that matches the history of the Book of Mormon perfectly?

[@towardcivicliteracy]

Yep. Pretty much my exact thoughts--false dilemma. Very interesting additional details, too. Thanks, @LDSChristian.

[@robinnetto6794]

Why do the. People have such pointy faces like a jackal Or bird . Is that the 😅gods head?

[@Costrada1]

This guy needs to be on every single podcast 😂❤ his voice and passion for his work is epic 🙏🏿😂

[@tsugal11]

Agreed. His passion comes thru and is contagious.

[@user-mn447]

STANDING OVATION 👏

[@TheSaintelias]

I would love to hear his view on all the points. This is an angle and technique of looking at the BoM I have never heard. Good job finding this gentleman.

[@barryrichins]

I would never have felt comfortable testifying to Joseph using a stone in a hat. I had to suspend enough disbelief to stay on my mission.

[@herbofallon965]

The Prophet Joseph Smith didn’t write the Book of Mormon. Neither did any of his associates. Anybody who thinks somebody just made up the Book of Mormon has more imagination than I do (a writer who knows what writing a novel is like). The Book of Mormon was written by the Prophets we say it was written by.

[@mattcooper1159]

@@herbofallon965so says someone who just believes. And you also believe that the “Laminates” got their darker skin because God changed their DNA within a generation or two? I could say more about this.

[@achedantes]

Same here. After a couple of months, had to suspend the disonance and just enjoy the ride and the people. I had fun and learned. Dont regret it.

[@isthechurchtrue]

It goes well beyond art like pottery. They supposedly used gold and silver coins, metal objects of all kinds, and built giant buildings within large cities. All those things would have lasted thousands of years. We still find ancient coins to this day in the middle east and throughout the Roman empire. Stone buildings last enormous amounts of time since stone does not just disappear. The Book of Mormon claims they had metal helmets, body armor, swords, chariots, etc... We can find the stone buildings and temples of the Maya, Aztec, and Inca but nobody can find the buildings of the Lamanites or Nephites.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Rod Meldrum can!!! Lol. Thanks for the comment!

[@alishabee369]

Freaking horrible liars. 😮

[@moesyah]

"to oral people, truth is cosmic fact. to literate people, truth is historical fact." this is a great episode!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Agreed Moe..this is a great statement!

[@charlesmendeley9823]

This is exactly where Mormons got it wrong. Talked to a missionary about Noah's ark and how it is a myth. He answered he believed it's literal history, and I asked him how he would get all animal species onto one boat and how the kangaroo would get to/from Australia. Besides I pointed out that Mormons believe the Garden of Eden is in Jackson county, Missouri ("It's in the musical!"), which he denied, but his companion admitted 😊. It was great fun to point out that all the apologetics he has faintly heard of do not fit together at all.

[@cynthianelson9244]

Having a spiritual experience can occur reading great literature, looking at epic art, loving a child, and many other ways.

[@JOSEVALDIVIESO]

This chapter I can’t recommended more! This was amazing and so much to learn from! I will watch it again and take notes! This is a peace of gold knowledge!

[@barryrichins]

John, I gave my understanding of the BOM problems on The Backyard professor, episode 125. I wonder if you would check it out for me and tell me if I am in the historical ballpark. I'm a retired college professor in Spanish and English, who has lived in Europe, Mexico and the heartland. My podcast is nothing more than sharing my observations from my travels.

[@TheAmeled]

Hi Barry. I will watch it. Probably on the weekend though. Can you send a link in this thread?

[@QuinnPrice]

I was so solid on the B of M that it was the last thing I studied when I was finally open to fully scrutinizing LDS truth claims. The JST was the first because I didn't know that much about it. I was able to let go of the B of M when I became aware of anachronisms. That's the equivalent of an iPhone found in a claimed Shaekespear diary.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@Quinn. 🌈🌈🌈🌈

[@schrecksekunde2118]

i watched all 4 episodes and am now starting over.first it's fascinating and second the lecture is very easy to listen to. thanks so much

[@ETBlair]

That was fascinating! I really learned a lot. Thank you.

[@chucklearnslithics3751]

Not only do even Fremont leave a fingerprint in their petroglyph/pictograph panels and pottery, they're existing at the same time, in parallel, with the Book of Mormon cultures. Moroni visited right into Fremont heartland (Manti) even. American archaeology must have produced a signal of the BoM world by now, somewhere, and yet it's completely missing still...

[@Rcplanecrasher]

It’s crazy how many different and independent disciplines all strongly point to the Book of Mormon not being historical.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Yes! The key is the independent disciplines! You have hit it on the head! Thank you so much for watching! We’ll be having him on again soon! Stay tuned!

[@richardholmes5676]

Google Mormon doctrine vs Christian doctrine. You'll see the LDS have scripture together better than the other churches. This is proof that Latter Day Saint scripture is from above. This alone debunks the above bigoted video. Care to refute?

[@Themanyfacesofego]

​@@richardholmes5676Or ...you could actually watch this upload itself instead.

[@Rcplanecrasher]

@@richardholmes5676 1. How would you even quantify “have their scriptures together” I’m not sure what that even means. 2. What does that have to do with BoM historicity? Do you have anything to add to the arguments or ideas presented in the presentation?

[@Fred-mp1vf]

That's because the Adversary is working harder than ever to dissuade people from humbly seeking the truth and gaining a testimony of The Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ. He wants us to remain in darkness and not draw nearer to our Heavenly Father by embracing this sacred book of scripture. Moroni 10: 4 tells how we can know of its truthfulness for ourselves.😊

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Only 1% of people in 1st Century Palestine were literate. Why didn't I transfer any of my existing knowledge to my study of the BOM. In my head the BOM people were as literate as we are. Thankyou for educating me.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We agree!!! It’s amazing how many things we know but never make a connection! John did a great job pointing out the obvious!!

[@danvogel6802]

Thanks John for the well-prepared presentation of some big ideas. Very interesting. Look forward to more.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thanks for your feedback! We really appreciate it! We’ll be doing another episode on more of John’s points very soon! He’s fired up and ready to go! Haha!

[@TheAmeled]

Thanks Dan. I'm very late to this table, and am reading your work. I have questions. Maybe we can chat sometime....

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

Satan hates The Book of Mormon because it brings its readers closer to Jesus Christ. It brings readers more faith in Christ, more hope, more peace. It helps the reader desire to be more forgiving, patient, kind, more aware of those in need and a desire to comfort and bless those struggling. It causes a desire in the reader to seek Christ’s grace in changing to be more like Him and to see others a little bit more through Heaven’s eyes. Satan hates all things peace filled and hope-filled so it’s no wonder he attacks The Book of Mormon every chance he gets.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

The Book of Mormon is very poorly written. It could be reduced by 30% at least, and still carry the same meaning. Smith took blocks of Isaiah to fill the void created when he lost 116 pages of the text.

[@brianspackman6368]

@@ThemanyfacesofegoSo how do you explain the Isaiah variants in the BofM that find support from Isaiah versions that were discovered and/or published after the BofM?

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Mormonish has come a long way in a short period of time --- I hope you guys win a bunch of awards for this episode.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Oh so kind…maybe we’ll win an Emma award!! Lol. Thanks for watching!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Our viewers and listeners are what inspires us! You guys are just awesome! Thank you so much for watching!

[@godsoffspring4195]

Just like all those journalists who won Pulitzers for Russian collusion in plain sight. 😆

[@davidholmes1233]

Then how do account of Hebrew poetry known as chiasms in the bible and in the book of Mormon. Ray treat explains this in the Restored Covenant Edition of the Book of Mormon.

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

@@davidholmes1233 by their claims Joseph Smith was a genius

[@yvonneadams970]

I joined the church 50 years ago, not in America. The book of Mormon speaks about, living and following Jesus Christ. I was raised Protestant so I have always loved Bible I Have never heard anyone say the Bible has been corrupted Those who follow the Bible, I think it is wonderful, however some people don’t believe in baptism like my mother etc etc. everybody sings from a different hymn book (Bible) We don’t have prosperity pastors either. I have only ever learned to do good and be good. The Bible is full of history and stories from Abraham down. I believe we live the gospel of Christ fully and Equally with any other Christian church. We are taught not to criticise others beliefs, I can say I’ve nearly been killed in a 1 car accident. And have damage in my brain from the second accident.I have damage also which effects my nervous system the most painful condition on earth, it has the highest suicide rate in the world, I have had many Priesthood blessings, The only thing that would reduce the pain enough After the first accident Doctors Did not know if I was brain-damaged or paralysed, I was given a blessing from the priesthood And told I would recover, I was not brain damaged or paralysed, from the first accident. No one ever tell me that I do not follow The Lord Jesus Christ. When I was lying there in the hospital close to death, The Lord Jesus Christ was there with me.

[@shadowgirl8038]

I agree with you. I will pray for you.❤😊

[@yvonneadams970]

@@shadowgirl8038thank you very much❤

[@TroyLeavitt]

This was a brilliant episode. Lundwall's explanations of how pre-literate societies operated was tremendously insightful. Subscribed!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I’m so glad you enjoyed the episode! We were really excited to have John on to share his research! We’re planning on having him on again very soon to go through some of his other points! Thank you so much for watching!

[@randyjordan5521]

It's logical, when you think about it. There were very few written languages, and almost everyone was illiterate, until Gutenberg invented the printing press and people started learning to read. Almost all primitive cultures had their own creation myths which were passed down orally. Even today, some false folk tales and old wives' tales which were passed down orally for hundreds of years are still repeated by lower-educated people. So the idea that there was this highly advanced Judeo-Christian society in Pre-Columbian America where all of these people could read and write and hear all of these speeches by kings and sermons by prophets and write things like a "title of liberty" are just not realistic. It all makes perfect sense if you view the BOM as being written in the 19th century by someone who didn't know anything about the history of America before the Europeans came over.

[@gracebe235]

Being excommunicated over the peep stone story years ago, is BEYOND offensive! Think of the lives that were messed with! The divorces, families torn apart, the humiliation of the poor individual, and yes, suicides over losing one’s family! And now?! It’s suddenly okay to not only talk about the peep stone, but it’s being PROMOTED?!!! IT’S ALL A LIE! What a massive case of gaslighting!!!

[@funkyfreshtx]

1:47:19 not only the fact that there is no linguistic evidence of a nephite civilization anywhere but also, there is no military evidence of a nephite civilization anywhere which would have left 1-5% of the swords and shields in chariots and skulls and hair, and other items of battle

[@holidayrap]

(and I thought this "ground breaking analysis" was going to be about Artificial Intelligence) 25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; 26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

[@JamesBPreston]

the most significant podcast I have ever listened to !

[@TheAmeled]

Wow. Thanks for that comment.

[@janetcox4873]

Cultural differences of oral and textual cultures that Dr. John speaks of relates with the 'legal v. Confucian (or relationship-based social norms)' in China that goes back way before Christ and is still a very live dichotomy in Asia today (and in Russia, Africa, and even US and Europe just below the surface). MesoAmerica is a relationship-based culture, not legal. Everything in the Book of Mormon is the 'legal' perspective. AND, What the hhaaiiiillll is 'reformed egyptian'?? ... the whole 'hieroglyphs' being treated as letters is freaky to me. Like Chinese, hieroglyphs are concepts, not letters (unless your British, then everything is a letter and will pay tax to the King).

[@courtneybrock1]

And all this time, the reasonably well supported conclusion that Smith plagiarized some dude’s novel was good enough for me. 😂 Seriously though, I’m a major nerd of religion and astrology of the Hellenistic world. (I have obscure hobbies.) And this video is an amazing compliment to understanding one of the most significant and transitionary points in world history. I’m genuinely floored by the scholarship presented here. (Mormonism aside.) At the same time, using a full historical-linguistic deconstruction of the BoM as a tool to understand these concepts is fascinating AND hilarious. Who said learning can’t be fun? Thank you.

[@mikelangdon5748]

Best presentation I’ve heard in a very long time!

[@user-sr2qz7uw2t]

Wow! This is mind boggling!

[@andrewcoburn1234]

This was fantastic information and an excellent presentation. Thank you thank you

[@Ischyromys]

Fascinating perspective! I thought that Christianity was the biggest anachronism in the Book of Mormon, but it goes far deeper than that!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Turns out even the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are anachronistic!

[@jbitter5776]

Great episode! I’m leaving a comment to help the algorithm 😊

[@patricianoel7782]

I recommend reading “Sapiens” by Yuval Harari. . Interesting read about early human history. New York Times Bestseller. Excellent!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Couldn’t agree more!!! Rebecca and I met when she posted a picture of the book she was reading and asked if anyone else had read it…I had and the rest is Mormonish!

[@timrathbone7093]

Absolutely amazing discussion many kudos indeed. Can't wait for part 2.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I"m so excited to let everyone know that we'll be getting Part 2 out next week!! Stay tuned!!

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

One of the most informative and interesting things I've heard in a long time

[@joeladams8678]

Nothing about our Heavenly Father here, or His son. The kind of reasoning you can expect in a great and spacious building.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We were at our individual homes when we shot this and none of those are that great or spacious…sorry! Thanks for listening!

[@joeladams8678]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 This is what Lehi beheld.,The pride of the world.,When they are learned they think they are wise.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@@joeladams8678 THIS WASN'T LEHI's own perception or statement. It is stolen from NON-jst and inserted into his confabulation. And since only actual Biblical scriptures referenced in SS or elsewhere are wild strawberry pickings by the manual, no actual Scripture is even used in this org. When I first joined, I was told that ,"We study the bom for one year and the BIBLE the next." Always alternating. Since 1993, THIS NEVER HAPPENED. IT. NEVER. OCCURRED.

[@lilith4924]

I really enjoyed this lecture. Thanks for giving us another angle from which to evaluate BoM historicity. The problems that intellectual history poses to BoM historicity are, in my estimation, insuperable. I love the discussion of how writing changes society and am eager to read more about this. That said, I have some questions about the specifics of the model. I'm not convinced secondary orality replicates the thoughtworld of orality. Are we saying people in Chinese and Japanese cultures are unable to think abstractly because their scripts aren't alphabetic? (Surely not!) I'm also not persuaded that the alphabet is correlated empirically all that closely either with abstract reasoning or with monotheism. On the one hand we have the Romans continuing to worship a plethora of gods centuries after the invention of the alphabet (or much longer, if you count abjads, which are consonantal alphabets), and on the other hand we have the Mesopotamians, with a ludicrously difficult script, applying Pythagoras's theorem a thousand years before Pythagoras (although implicitly), solving quadratic equations, and making astronomical discoveries that wouldn't be rediscovered until the high Middle Ages, as well as creating a text-centric (elite) culture in which texts alluded to other texts, commentaries on texts were written, and incipient monotheism was not uncommon in the latest period. Just conceptually, I also don't see why the alphabet necessarily would lead to linear or abstract or non-cosmological thinking. It's a fantastic technology that facilitates literacy and can thereby restructure society; I can completely accept that it had social consequences that may even have laid the groundwork for intellectual discoveries. But I couldn't follow the claim that it should lead ineluctably to cognitive changes, abstract thought, or monotheism, let alone that it did. I'm also not sure the alphabet even catches on immediately once it's introduced, or that it couldn't get lost. You have moments in time like the Late Bronze Age in which Ugarit is using a cuneiform abjad (virtually--there are three syllabograms in an otherwise consonantal script), where the empires around it are using very difficult scripts, especially Hittite, Egyptian, and Akkadian. It would have been the perfect chance for people using the other scripts to simplify drastically. Instead, the Ugaritic script was completely lost and forgotten, and in Akkadian, the script got increasingly complicated as the number of values, or ways of reading, each sign exploded in the first millennium BCE, and the use of CVC (consonant-vowel-consonant) signs became increasingly popular, adding to the total number of signs in common use. In other words, a complicated script got increasingly complicated exactly as they were making more and more discoveries we would call "scientific" and conceptualizing the gods more often in monotheistic-adjacent ways. I'm also not sure why someone writing in 600 BCE wasn't active in an "alphabetic" culture. They'd had an abjad for centuries and centuries by this point; even if we don't want to draw a straight line between Canaan with its Paleo-Hebrew (basically Phoenician) script and the Semitic-speaking miners in the Sinai who were adapting Egyptian graphemes in the Middle Bronze Age to develop a proto-alphabet, we have epigraphic evidence in Canaan taking us back at least to Iron Age I. Why did it take so long for "alphabetic" thinking to "embed"? The Levant as a whole had been awash in abjads for a very long time in 600 BCE. On the other hand, in Greece we have the converse problem: After they adapted the Phoenician script to their language and (probably inadvertently) invented symbols for vowels, they made a number of intellectual advances fairly soon after, but without embracing monotheism--this in spite of the fact that they weren't marinating in abjads for centuries but instead had used an absurdly cumbersome script in the Late Bronze Age, Linear B, a script so ambiguous that it wasn't capable of recording complex texts, and had then reverted to a strictly oral culture for centuries, as evidenced by Homer. There also seems to be an implicit assumption that monotheism is intellectually superior to polytheism, since it's being associated with "abstract" thought. But is that true? By positing a fundamental unity in the cosmos, monotheism raises issues like the problem of evil that polytheism doesn't have to contend with. I would love to read something that spells out in more detail what qualifies as monotheism and why it's rational in a way that polytheism is not. I hope I don't come across as overly negative! Thank you for a stimulating interview.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Ahhhh…I think we’ll let John answer this!! Great questions!!!

[@patricianoel7782]

Thank you for the reply, Lilith. It alone was very stimulating.

[@TheAmeled]

Hi Lilith, Thank you for such a well thought out thread with questions. As this is not the place to have a full conversation (which I would be happy to do) I will just write a few notes about your observations. I would be happy to DM or discuss elsewhere. 1) Alphabetic writing did not create abstract thought. It created a new layer of abstract thought. It is much easier to de-couple thinking from nature when using abstract symbols instead of picture symbols. There was plenty of abstraction in both orality and secondary oral worlds, but in these worlds religious thinking and writing is always deeply tied to the observations of nature and cosmos and this interplay is the backbone of the metaphors used in the religious system. This is very different than the theology of the Book of Mormon, which is created from centuries of literate thinking. 2) I never said that alphabetic writing created the thinking behind mathematics, Pythagoras’s theorem, geometry, trigonometry, pre-algebra, etc. which we do find in secondary-oral systems. I’m not sure where you are coming from with these comments? 3) The alphabet was invented by polytheistic peoples, just like writing was invented by oral peoples. In addition, monotheism is an adaptation from polytheism. There is an ideological trajectory in many polytheistic systems towards monotheism (i.e., one central creator deity who has divine subordinates) but in all societies before alphabetic writing there is no monotheism that ever takes hold. There appears to be a few forays into monotheism in logo-syllabic or oral systems (14th cent. BCE with Atenism, monism in the Vedas, and maybe one tribe in Africa, but Atenism lasted one lifetime and all the other systems appear to be a form of monism with pantheistic qualities, or later adaptations of such). But I did say that there were no tight lines between categories, and that there is overlap. 4) Alphabetic writing is much easier to learn. In previous systems, it could take years to train a proficient scribe. In that same time, you could train a hundred scribes with an alphabet. It takes time to do this as in fact in most towns and cities there weren’t a hundred scribes to be trained. Still, the more people read in your society the more society will be changed by reading. It should be rather obvious, but the alphabet provides the structures that allow for the expansion of literacy. In addition, an alphabet helps de-couple the reader from the observations of nature which was the memory reservoir in prior systems. So, while the alphabet does not create abstraction or monotheism, it provides the channels that help establish new abstractions and staying power for monotheism. In other words, there is a sympathetic relationship between alphabetic literacy and monotheism. 5) Clearly there are other forces in play. The first true monotheism in history is Judaism. It formed after their religious cult center was destroyed. It appears therefore, that the greatest pressure to change the religious system was not in alphabetic writing but in the complete destruction of their way of life. Changes had to be made. The Jewish scribes made a bold move; they decided to make their religion portable, decentralized, therefore de-cosmologized, by writing the Torah. In order to make that stick, to convert the people to Torah, you have to train people to read Torah. The more people who read Torah the greater the chances your new religion will endure. Thus, alphabetic script is the tool you want. And the tool they used. And it worked. 6) I never said that monotheism is more rational than polytheism. 7) The thought-world of the Book of Mormon has been de-cosmologized. This is not the thought-world of any culture in the Americas. You cannot get the thought-world of the Book of Mormon from the thought-world in the pre-Colonial Americas. The cosmo-vision of the Book of Mormon is the result of centuries of abstract literate thought that has created a strict form of monotheism and historicism, which does not exist in the Americas. 8) I know of no example of a logo-syllabic system creating a monotheistic sermon culture or a linear historicist framework of thought. If you can point that out to me, I would be thrilled. Thanks. I look forward to your response should you choose to make one. I am happy to discuss. And thanks for watching the podcast.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@TheAmeled "The thought-world of the Book of Mormon has been de-cosmologized. This is not the thought-world of any culture in the Americas. You cannot get the thought-world of the Book of Mormon from the thought-world in the pre-Colonial Americas. The cosmo-vision of the Book of Mormon is the result of centuries of abstract literate thought that has created a strict form of monotheism and historicism, which does not exist in the Americas." This entire subject is way over my head intellectually, but as I read this comment, I thought of Alexander Campbell's critique of the BOM which he wrote in 1831: This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years. He decides all the great controversies - infant baptism, ordination, the trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministry, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, who may baptize, and even the question of freemasonry, republican government, and the rights of man. All these topics are repeatedly alluded to. How much more benevolent and intelligent this American Apostle, than were the holy twelve, and Paul to assist them!!! He prophesied of all these topics, and of the apostacy, and infallibly decided, by his authority, every question. How easy to prophecy of the past or of the present time!! But he is better skilled in the controversies in New York than in the geography or history of Judea.

[@lilith4924]

@@TheAmeled Hi John, Thanks so much for taking the time to write a very thoughtful, kind, and detailed reply, and for clearing up several misconceptions. (And thanks again for a very enjoyable lecture!) I definitely think the alphabet, especially an ideal alphabet, provides a much faster route to high literacy (if not the only route), and that has enormous consequences for a society. Just a couple of thoughts: You write, "It is much easier to de-couple thinking from nature when using abstract symbols instead of picture symbols." It seems like the way the graphemes in a script function is a separate issue from the degree to which they continue to resemble objects or phenomena in the world, though, since an alphabet can have graphemes that resemble things, like an ox, and a logosyllabographic script can have graphemes that, over time, have essentially become abstract. In Mesopotamia, where our earliest extant writing appears, the earliest graphemes are famously pictographic (as I'm sure you already know.). But as the system turns into cuneiform (based on the type of object they used to incise the symbols), the resemblance of the graphemes to objects in the material world, whether natural or humanmade, becomes increasingly fuzzy, and already in the third millennium BCE it's difficult to see what many of the graphemes were intended to represent; by the first millennium, the script is very divorced from its pictographic origins. The fact that they changed the direction of their script 90 degrees at some unknown point contributes to that. But the script continues to be polyphonic and logosyllabographic. Ugaritic and Old Persian are cuneiform scripts that function largely alphabetically, and I wonder whether the graphemes of those scripts are qualitatively different in form (not function) from the Akkadian script. From my perspective, almost all cuneiform looks equally abstract, whether it's from an alphabetic script or a logosyllabographic script. You write, "I know of no example of a logo-syllabic system creating a monotheistic sermon culture or a linear historicist framework of thought," and "There was plenty of abstraction in both orality and secondary oral worlds, but in these worlds religious thinking and writing is always deeply tied to the observations of nature and cosmos and this interplay is the backbone of the metaphors used in the religious system." I suspect I'm just misunderstanding what "historicist" means or how a logo-syllabic "system" relates to a culture using a logosyllabographic script, or what constitutes religious writing, but my initial impression is that there are scads and scads of religious texts in Mesopotamia that have nothing to do with observations of nature, and some that are potentially even historicist. What about the Babylonian Chronicles? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Chronicles) They're famous for having a detached tone that's not overtly propagandistic, although I realize they're written very late in Babylonian history, and the culture is besieged by alphabets by this time (especially Aramaic). But what about the much earlier Weidner Chronicle? (www.livius.org/sources/content/mesopotamian-chronicles-content/abc-19-weidner-chronicle/) It recounts actual historical events in Babylonian history by explaining them as the god Marduk blessing or punishing people for sacrificing to him or failing to sacrifice to him (admittedly this is completely anachronistic, since Marduk was not an important god in the periods being described). What about Ludlul bel nemeqi as an example of a religious text that's not a ritual and not about nature? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlul_b%C4%93l_n%C4%93meqi) It describes someone suffering every conceivable problem before being saved by Marduk. I realize your interview was very condensed and you didn't have time to go into a lot of particulars in detail, so I'm sorry if I come across as nitpicking. I'm in complete agreement with you that the Book of Mormon absolutely cannot be historical, and it's not just because of the material culture and the DNA. The thoughtworld of the Book of Mormon is fundamentally 19th century American Protestantism. The apologists don't need an attestation of the name Nahom in Yemen; that's not sufficient. They need an entire alternative intellectual history that's plausible, and they simply don't have anything close to it. I love any discussion of these issues.

[@harmagician1]

Comparing Mayan literacy to Book of Mormon writing is silly because the two societies are not the same. Claiming anachronisms in the Book is denying that the Spirit gave the inspired translation in man's own learning and understanding. This pedantic attack on the Book sounds great if you want to disbelieve, but to TBMs who have a spiritual witness of its truthfulness, it's wasted time. I have a PhD in theoretical psychology and spent many years studying science, epistemology, and ontology. I assure you there is nothing here or out there that presents a serious attack on Book of Mormon faith, unless you want to disbelieve.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

John did not compare the Mayan literacy to Book of Mormon writing..he compared all writings in the Americas to Book of Mormon. Mayan was the most advanced of the written languages and it was not advanced enough to produce the Book of Mormon showing that there was no people in the Americas capable of writing in literary style. Assurance with no evidence is no assurance at all. All the evidence for an historical BOM fails…all of it! Not one of the sciences agrees with the Book of Mormon. It fails every DNA, archeology, linguistics, anthropology, biology and common sense test you throw at it. I guess theoretical psychology might be the only science in which the BOM might pass but then again it is theoretical!

[@brianspackman6368]

@@mormonishpodcast1036Uto-Aztecan language family has over 1000 words/phrases that are similar to Hebrew. That is an impossible coincidence. How did Hebrew end up in northwest Mexico/ southwest US language? The Book of Mormon gives a plausible explanation. To say there is no linguistic evidence to support the BofM is said in ignorance or willful dishonesty.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Funny, I thought the "authenticity" of The Book of Mormon had already been dismantled.😂

[@TheAmeled]

Truth

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

We should have said, “Again!”😂

[@randyjordan5521]

It's fun to find even more ways.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

​@@rebeccabibliothecaAgain - and again - and again! 😂

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Very interesting interview!

[@Leinomaaea]

Such an awesome episode! I love your approach of comparison… Like before watching your episode, I’ve been thinking “How outrageous to engage a psychic!” Now I’m like, “Well, hell yah! Let’s go!” 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@smuggythornton]

I am always amused when this type of "experts" are so very certain, except when new or current information comes along (or existing information they have ignored), We often dumb down civilizations because "there is no way the could have been so advanced" It is almost as if the want to insult our intelligence.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

John welcomes any peer reviewed evidence to counter his claims. He studies these cultures for a living and he does not dumb down these civilizations. He fully respects and understands them more than any of us and is an expert even living in the field where they lived to better understand them. He has devoted his life to researching these incredible civilizations, but just because they’re intelligent does not mean they have a writing system. As a scholar, John is willing to change his mind when new information comes out and update that information. Unfortunately, religionists believe despite any information to the contrary, which is what is really amusing!

[@alandonly]

Waaaay too much banter on this channel.. Get to your material and stick with it! You'll lose listeners.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

How funny, I just got an email complimenting us on our banter. Haha! Everyone is different, that's for sure! I'm glad there are so many options in the community for everyone's taste. I'm trying to think of channels with co hosts and guests where there is less banter. Probably try Mormon Stories, it's often more serious. Although I do banter when I'm on MS. Also Mormonism Live has banter but not all the time. I add banter when I'm on ML. Hope you can find the balance you like!

[@dysena11]

Wow, great stuff! Please bring John back for some more episodes on the things he said “we don’t have time for!” Each time I was like, “No! Tell me! I want to know!” 😆 like the popol vuh!

[@m4r1t4c4]

Please!

[@Tina06019]

I could admire Joseph Smith, Jr.’s creativity in writing the Book of Mormon, if he had not pretended it was revealed Hebrew scripture. I think I have appreciated this the most of all of the Mormonish videos/podcasts.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

It’s one of our favorites too!

[@richardholmes5676]

Joseph Smith didn't write the Book of Mormon.

[@djdalad]

amazing episode with a wealth of knowledge

[@tedsmith8369]

Awesome episode guys! Although I get a little frustrated at TBM’s for walking around like zombies and not investigating. We all certainly know that they are some of the nicest people. The problem is this corporation that masquerades as a church and It’s high time they are called out on their B.S.! Maybe we can make them loose a billion or two:)

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Love the Mormon people!!!! Hate the Mormon hierarchy!!!

[@sarahaas183]

Not zombies. People like you, who are doing their best and grappling with faith issues and more, while still honoring our promises to God. Sometimes faith is just sitting with really hard questions, and not reacting right away.

[@tedsmith8369]

@@sarahaas183 Hi Sara, faith is the belief in somethings that we can’t prove. We know that Joseph Smith participated in illegal treasure digging using the same rock in a hat that he supposedly translated the book of Mormon with. We know that not only did he participate in polygamy, but he also participated in polyandry, and hid this from Emma for 10 years. I find this disgusting. We also know that he started an illegal bank in Kirkland Ohio, then, when the bank was failing, he snuck off in the middle of the night, leaving Emma, and his child, also disgusting. Then when William law called him out on polygamy, he excommunicated him. William law, then produce a paper in the Navoo expositor that Joseph didn’t like so he burned it down, again disgusting. We also know beyond his shadow of a doubt, that the book of Mormon is one of the most demonstrably false books ever written. I’m sorry, Sarra but if you disagree with anything that I’m saying, then you need to read your own church history, it’s all there, you see the church has the right all of its history, because they were getting sued for not declaring the truth. It may be hard to find, and they tuck things away in footnotes, but it’s all there. People wonder why ex Mormons are so angry. Yes I am angry to find out that my tithing money went to build a shopping mall and now to find out that the church leaders were illegally investing and hiding over $150 billion, again just disgusting. It’s not a church that dabbles in business. It’s a business, that dabbles in religion. They sit on a mountain of money and throw a few Pennie’s at the poor. You have to ask yourself, what would Jesus think?

[@sachamo100]

Astoundingly informative! Thank you. I am so close to leaving the Church, this is so helpful to support the other information I have learned over the last year.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thanks for listening and keep up the critical thinking and analysis. Good luck and thanks for listening.

[@herbofallon965]

It will be a definite negative event in your life if you should leave the Church. The Church is true. I know for a fact it is. Satan is working overtime to try to pull members away. He knows his time is short.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Good luck. It is a tough step, but you will enjoy the freedom outside of the "salvation by works" church of Mormonism.

[@kylethedalek]

I donno what to do I’m seeing more people finding info that gives credits to LDS.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@@kylethedalek where do you encounter that? When I look at critical channels such as exmormon Reddit or post Mormon KZbin channels, it seems everybody and their dog are leaving.

[@anthonycampbell4534]

Mind blown away! Feel like I'm getting my PhD!! Great show!!

[@mmthueson]

This is THE BEST episode!!!!

[@Sadie37]

I just can’t get enough of this!!! It’s so good!!!!!!! ❤

[@ssf9903]

You do realize that through the power and spirit of God, that a group of people can be and would be way more advanced than others at that time, who do not have the spirit of God. So comparing the Nephites and Lamanites with the Mayans or other civilizations at that time, wouldn’t be an honest assessment. But if you don’t believe in God, then I can see where you would think everything is a farce. That’s why the spirit is what it takes to reveal truth. There are legit arguments for and against the BOM. So what’s the tie breaker? The Spirit!

[@Free_Range_Hippo]

Are Mormons currently more advanced than their neighbors?

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

While we appreciate your faith your argument has no merit. The Mayans were the most advanced civilization in the America’s during the supposed Nephite history. Technology and writing systems spread regardless of religious beliefs or faith. Rome was the greatest civilization of its time and ruled the Jews who were god’s chosen people. Never has the most advanced civilization been one that LDS would claim as a righteous people so your statement lacks any evidence to support it. And belief in God has nothing to do with historical truth, Israel was destroyed over and over by nations who were far more advanced and did not believe in God.

[@senorcanche]

The BoM describes something like the Roman empire from the same time period. There are hundreds of museums full of Roman artifacts. Thousands of Roman ruins. Thousands of Roman coins. Thousands of Roman manuscripts. Hell there are on the order of 100,000 tablets of Sumerian writing from 3000 bc What did Nephites write on?Tortillas. Show me the Nephite artifact museum. Show me a single identifiable Nephite artifact. There are none. Case closed.

[@lauraparis2023]

Great program ❤

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thank you so much! We really appreciate our viewers and listeners! Thank you for watching! Stay tuned for more!

[@JC-vq2cs]

They danced the cosmos ~46:00....truly mindblowing as Rebecca said. Native peoples still keep remnants of this. Modern memory tips & hacks include creating imagery & stories. This presentation explains that as a moden attempt to rexapture ancient knowledge transmission. Absolutely fabulous insights.

[@patricianoel7782]

I’ve been thinking about this. When did people really start writing and reading? I just finished the New Revised Edition of the Old Testament. I loved reading it as literature rather than scripture. Thank you for your work to share the TRUTH.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great question! The Sumerians invented the first writing system in 3000 BC. Which by the way is prior to the date of the Tower of Babel so if the languages were not confounded until that date Sumerian must be the pure Adamic language!

[@Fred-mp1vf]

Actually Adam & Eve were taught to keep a written record. These and many other ancient scriptures will be brought forth by the hand of God, after we have humbled ourselves and embraced The Bible and The Book of Mormon.

[@MrBilgey]

Smith's Book of Mormon was written for a 19th century audience and as such has no place in modernity.

[@briannielson1221]

Reminds me of a book for 2000 yrs ago...

[@ajadamsv9208]

Great episode!

[@miriam-moore]

When I was teaching art at the Circle school in San Antonio Texas I was introduced to paula Underwood, who authored the Walking People and native American oral history that I think your guest would be very interested in the stories begin with the Ice Age and the cave paintings and follow their walk across Europe, and across the Land bridge, they called walk by waters along the Rockies and the west coast across the great plains up the eastern seaboard settling in the Great Lakes area. Every people they met, they gather stories of the people and their history.

[@amazinmaven]

Fun to see such an animated character!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Ha! He’s so awesome! I really hope he gets a chance to go on some other podcasts! This info is fascinating!!

[@paullovegrove583]

I liked the way he described how he had a spiritual experience reading the Book of Mormon at the age of 16 I was 20 years old. I think it’s because I wanted it. I had a lot of trauma during the 4 years before and I was born into the church although inactive. I was 56 years old when my shelf broke due to the false translation of the book of Abraham that began my search for what else are they lying about. I have found So much it’s incredible.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Our stories are similar. I was 50 and Book of Abraham did me in as well! Thanks for listening!

[@gordonquickstad]

Knight presents a huge wall of logic.

[@SaffronHammer]

Did it ever possess authenticity?

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Many, many people believe it does and nothing will change their mind!😂

[@reddish22]

This was your best episode yet guys! Thanks so much for this, it’s such wonderful information.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@YogaPainter]

Hands down, best podcast disproving the Book of Mormon. Why nitpick over steel and horses when the entire linguistic style is impossible? In 1 Nephi 19 the island kings say, "The god of nature suffers." But oral culture being polytheistic, they should have said, "The gods of nature, war, harvest, etc. . . . suffer." Joseph Smith projected his monotheistic worldview onto his fictional characters. Thank you for this brilliant, groundbreaking presentation.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We humbly agree! Thank you for listening!!

[@keile513]

Having my mind blown by John Lundwall… awake half the night, hanging on every word! Thank you!

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

I know exactly how you feel! When John first outlined his concepts while we were on a field trip to look at rock art, I thought about what he said for days! And then I realized that we need to put this into some kind of formal presentation! We’ll be having him on soon to go through some of his other points! He told me he was sorry that the presentation had gone so long but I assured him that all of the viewers and listeners would really appreciate the time he took to explain the overall concept and then move to the finer points!

[@herbofallon965]

If you want to have your mind blown, read the Book of Mormon, which was translated in 65 days by a young farm boy who had two years of formal education. Dr. Lundwall doesn’t know diddly that will prove either Joseph Smith false or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints false. This channel is no more than the other anti-LDS channels that seem obsessed in trying to prove Joseph Smith and the Church false. Haha That was pretty funny. There is chiasmus in the Book of Mormon, as there is in the Bible. Joseph Smith knew nothing about chiasmus, but the Prophets of God who wrote the Book of Mormon did! The Savior raised at least one individual from the dead through the Prophet Joseph Smith. After Joseph Smith fell from a second story window on the day he was killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, one of the mobsters pulled a sword, thinking to cut the prophets head off. As he raised the sword in the air, a bolt of lightning came out of the sky, instantly killing that mobster. So the real facts of it all FAR OUTDO these three chuckling obsessionists.

[@herbofallon965]

You people are talking about Mayan writing, etc. Then I’m sure you know about the Temple of Kukulkan at Chichen Itza in Yucatán, Mexico. The Feathered Serpent that goes down the steps of that temple. Where did the idea of the feathered serpent come from? It came from the Savior’s teaching Be ye suchandsuch as doves, but wise as serpents. Jesus Christ visited His “other sheep” in ancient America in 34 A.D. and taught the same things in ancient America as He did in Palestine. My son is part Mayan because of his mother, who is from Merida, the capital of Yucatán.

[@rancierae]

I mentioned the idea that written language of the BOM was anachronistic in the America’s , my TBM husband said that lehi’s family brought the knowledge with them . How do I respond ?

[@redleaf4902]

John, this is me and my Inuit sis'n'law, driving around together: Me__So, do I turn north in 1 km? Her__You'll come to two tall buildings, the first one is taller than the 2nd, and the smaller one has white brick. You don't turn right at those buildings; you turn right one block after that. Me__So, do I turn north ? ☺

[@masterbulgokov]

I'm not sure it's worth any of your time, let alone Dr. Lundwall's . . . ever think of doing a response to a Wayne May video?

[@theoldestkidintheworld7365]

It came to pass, that it came to pass, when it came to pass, as it came to pass.

[@iamjustonemom1950]

Tremendous episode that taught the diff between oral people and literate peoples. Fascinating. My brain is at peace now. I used to try and reconcile what I had studied about mesoAmerica civilization and what the BoM records about its civilization. Real history is tangible (excavations of mesoAm), fictional history can leave no archeological evidence because it isn't real (BofM). Thank you! But this knowledge makes the apologists into intellectually dishonest players (example: concocting this idea of 'loose' v 'tight' translation). So sad for them but destructive to their readers. This youtube should be the Sunday morning session of Oct Gen'l Conf...! I want more of John Lundwall's knowledge. Make a series, John!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We are planning to have another episode with John next week. Stay tuned!!!

[@sheliabryant3997]

@iamjust. X 93 million. 🌈🌈

[@robinnetto6794]

I am blown away. I listened 2 times already. I found the information in showing JS took from his world but this shows it is not Linguistically possible!!!!!! I want to know more!!!!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We’re going to get John back to finish his points!

[@iamjustsaying1]

How often will I continue to find myself saying, "How did I not notice this, before!!??"🤔🤦🏼‍♀️

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Totally agree!

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Excellent presentation! Thanks! One question that has always bugged me like tiny rocks in my socks is why, in the first place, it would ever be necessary to have an ancient record of God's dealings and revelations to an ancient people in order for a modern people to know what God wants. Obviously, in the case of Mormonism, that arrangement simply means that God's will is being communicated to us as second-hand, third-hand and fourth-hand information transmitted through a rock that functions like a Mattel magic 8-ball, and the accuracy of the information that is sort of being communicated that way is also totally dependent on the limited comprehension of a failed 19th century treasure finder...and all of modernity simply has to trust the word of that kid as to what he was really doing and just trust that he wasn't lying his posterior off. Why can't God just have direct dealings with modern people that are clear, plain, logical and unmistakable? None of this "is it God or is it Fraud?" uncertainty, please. How incompetent or lazy is God that he just can't be bothered to do anything other than provide a weird book that is supposedly based on records kept by some guys in an ancient civilization for which there is no reasonable evidence, all transmitted through a shady 19th century character who seems to have always been more of a scammer than a saint? "Oh look, Molly, how wonderful this book is. Here it tells us about a guy who chops off a drunk man's head in order to steal some brass plates. Here it tells us about how that same guy single-handedly built a trans-oceanic ship out in the middle of the desert. Here it tells us how the brothers got into a lot of fights with each other, so God split them up and cursed all the descendants of two of the brothers with dark skin in the hopes that the extended family would remain permanently divided and not be confused as to who their enemies are. Here it tells us about how a guy impressed a king by single-handedly chopping off the arms of 100 guys. Here's a story of a 'Daughter of Jared' who danced for a decapitation just like the 'Daughter of Herod' and that even rhymes! And here are a bunch of theological preachings that are basically the same things that many 19th century protestants were talking about. What a great book! Now I know why we don't really need God or Jesus to communicate directly with us and appear to us. We have this book!"

[@sweetafton5655]

They need the murky, convoluted scriptures to cause confusion and produce several different interpretations in order to get more people to feel they need some bearded wonder guy in the sky to set them straight in their search for truth.

[@isthechurchtrue]

@TEAM__POSEID0N , Here is some food for thought for you. Why did Joseph Smith need to get the gold plates if he didn't even know how to read them or even use them during the translation process? Joseph Smith got the "translation" by looking at a rock in a hat. The gold plates were not involved at all. Also why did the angel take the gold plates away after they were "translated"? Wouldn't it have been beneficial and a testament to the world if some of the gold plates were shown publicly? Joseph Smith supposedly struggled to get the gold plates which included digging up the body of his dead brother Alvin but never used them for the translation or showed them publicly.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@isthechurchtrue Certainly. I actually at one point or another asked myself all of those questions. Ultimately, those questions helped me realize how silly Joseph Smith's stories are at the most basic level. In other words, the whole idea that any of those stage props (in the drama that Joseph Smith just made up) would be necessary for anything was ludicrous. If God had an important message or book's worth of messages to deliver, God could just deliver it all in perfect form. All of that nonsense about visiting the Hill Cumorah at special times over four years, retrieving golden plates with undecipherable ancient writings on them, magic stones, an angel taking the plates up to heaven so that nobody could examine the evidence, hats and magic rocks, breastplates and magic spectacles... and yadda yadda yadda....all that nonsense, in retrospect, was obviously just a farrago of religio-occult-magic nonsense used as a marketing narrative to sell a crappy book. The only reason I ever took any of it seriously in the first place was because, as a child, I was surrounded by adults telling me it was all true. It was like being surrounded by adults telling me from early childhood that Santa Claus was real...only the adults actually believed that Santa was real and told me that people who don't believe in Santa are bad and defective people.

[@freyast2213]

Wouldn’t Mormons just say “well the natives in the Americas weren’t literate, but the Book of Mormon ppl came from Israel & those ppl were literate” ? Maybe this point will come up in the show.

[@emphoenix7238]

Loved this! Thanks for the lesson!

[@anthonyquinata8918]

All I say is WOW! 🎉

[@sheliabryant3997]

Kabbalahism! Or (given context re Luther) did you say "Catholicism"? Okay. Got it on third listen. But, really, all reduces to- or regresses back to Cabala [Kabbalah]. Wonderful wonderful wonderful analysis. 🌈🌈🌈

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

"There were many books in existence at the time of the Spanish conquest of Yucatán in the 16th century; most were destroyed by the Catholic priests. Many in Yucatán were ordered destroyed by Diego de Landa in July 1562. Bishop de Landa hosted a mass book burning in the city of Mani in the Yucatán peninsula..... Alonso de Zorita wrote that in 1540 he saw numerous such books in the Guatemalan highlands that "recorded their history for more than eight hundred years back, and that were interpreted for me by very ancient Indians". Wik The Maya did write their history, however the Maya are not the Book of Mormon people. They may have lived near by but they were not the Nephites.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thank you for the comment. This was not a part of our discussion because it is not relevant as you stated 800 years back from 1540 is 740 CE, hundreds of years too late for the Nephites and thousands of years too late for the Jaredites. As you indicated the Mayans are the only civilization in all of the Americas with a writing system during the Nephite era and as Dr. Lundwall pointed out that only allowed them to indicate who, when and what they did they did not produce long, historical narratives like the Book Of Mormon. Also as you stated the Mayan’s were not Nephites which strengthens the argument that there is zero archeological, DNA or literary evidence for any Book of Mormon peoples and had there been a civilization that was more advanced than the Mayan’s with millions of people as the Book of Mormon states they would show up in the archeological record. Thanks for listening.

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 We dont know how far back the library's of history went, this Catholic priest only saw 800 years of it. Like the Spanish burned the Aztac and Mayan records when the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites they would have destroyed their record too. The Olmec monuments were systematically destroyed around 400 bc. Just about the time the Jaradites were destroyed and their king carved his own monument. Creating those monuments isnt something Lehi's family would do, do you see one erected to Moses? You have to judge the Book of Mormon by what it says and not by what you think it says. When they split Nephi's sister went with him. That left the sons of Ishmael without wives and Laman and Lemuel with just their families. Maybe 15 people. That little handful did not become the large nation of Lamanites we read of. In Alma 18 where Lamonii speaks of a Great Spirit that looks like a man, it says; "Now this is the Great Spirit of whom our fathers have spoken. 5 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit" Where did that come from? From Ether where the Brother of Jared sees the finger of the Lord in his spirit. Ammon was talking to descendants of the Jaradites, oh maybe a little bit of Laman thrown in there but any Hebrew traditions and writing skills were long gone. The Book of Mormon uses the word Lamanite like the Bible uses the word Gentile. There's us and them. Ammon would not have known who the Jaradites even were. The Jaradites weren't alone either, they were trading and mixing with other people also. In one of their wars they chase the people who would not join them off the land. Did you know the Olmec were some of the first people to use the place value of zero, this gave them geometry and the ability to build their pyramids. They were not illiterate people. To build those buildings they had to communicate, suppliers had to be ordered, designs had to be discussed. In the Bible when Zacharias writes the name John he does so on a writing tablet made of wood and filled with beeswax. These tablets go back thousands of years and how many do we have today, only a handful. That doesn't mean they weren't there. With the new lidir technology archeologist know they have barely scratched the surface of what is there. But, dont hold your breath waiting for a sign saying Welcome to Zarahemla, it was destroyed around 400 ad.

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 1Nephi 1:2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. “Scholars have long believed that ancient Semitic alphabets were derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Thus, the symbol for house (Hebrew bayit) came to stand for the sound b, the symbol for water (Hebrew mayim) for the sound m, etc. This system was then adopted by other Near Eastern peoples, although which used it first remains unknown. Speaking at a recent academic conference, the archaeologist Douglas Petrovich claimed to have deciphered the earliest extant inscriptions in this writing system-found on several Egyptian stone tablets-by reading them as if they were Hebrew. The inscriptions date to the 19th century BCE, when, according to the biblical account, the Israelites settled in Egypt.” Advancing Jewish thought, Mosaic Nov 2016 An Egyptian Birthplace for abc’s (science 1999) “Until now, the earliest use of the alphabet had been traced to Semites in Sinai, who left writing on the walls of a turquoise mine sometime between 1700 B.C. and 1500 B.C. They democratized writing by simplifying hieroglyphics--a system requiring knowledge of hundreds of symbols--to an alphabet comprising fewer than 30 symbols, says Chip Dobbs-Alsop, a Semitist at Princeton Theological Seminary. To express the Semitic language, the letters were derived from hieroglyphics: "aliph," for example, which meant "ox," became the letter A (5th sign from left in inscription); "bet," for house, became B (2nd from right). And a zigzag hieroglyph meaning water became today's "M" "...in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." How did Joseph know?

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

I loved it. I love digging deep into history. Looking forward for parts 2,3, and more

[@t.o.g.sakafay2868]

only halfway through - & I got to say this is absolutely fascinating! Pls pls more of this

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We knew when we discussed these concepts with John while out exploring Native American rock art that everyone needed to hear this! He does a great job explaining the concepts and is so knowledgeable!

[@andrewreed4216]

... interesting.... but here even in Australia (and new Zealand) evidence of the Egyptians making it here is clear "New Zealand skeletons in the cupboard" is a great amateur series that shows the connection (particularly New Zealand), and in Australia I have live with different indigenous people whom share about much older connections between them and other places in the world. The Book of Mormon isn't the problem (whether fake or real) the people in the church and the world have strayed from being Christlike.

[@WgB5]

As a child I was raised in an oral tribe. You do us a drastic insult. Frankly. Mormonism placed itself before the tribes you mention. For me, your fancy speech meant nothing until over an hour and a half into your fairy tale. You finally got into the meat of the story. There is no way that Hebrew would be mixed into Egyptian- creating a hybrid language. Allegedly the Mormons would have started out from a fleeing rich family, so it is possibly that they would have known old Hebrew, but there would have been no reason to pervert Hebrew with Egyptian. Not even for a trading family. And then they pretend to have the teachings of Isiah when those scripts would not have existed yet.

[@444Tbird]

False Assumption #2 That all peoples of these early periods were based upon ritualistic magic principles. For they weren't. God spoke to men - he taught them that ritualistic magic was not the means by which reality need be changed. Rather - that they could have faith in him. He taught them the concepts and meanings that were beyond their paganistic, and animistic influences of those around them. Thus they surely could be a group of people who's language was logographic, and yet who's concepts, ideas, and principles were beyond the ritualistic magic, and principals of the religions around them. Rather, they were based upon the reality they saw, the impact their GOD had on that reality, and their prophets who directly interacted with him. To assume that such a culture did not exist, because of the change of thought that revelation introduced, is a false assumption. In fact it surely did. Thus the Jaredites could have easily used logographic language to write about their dealings with their God. Which dealings just happened to also be historic in nature. Thus their God's interaction was what was their history - and their tradition, and their myths, and culture. Revelation, and it's impact is lacking in the assumptions of his analysis. It is real, it is prophetic, and it has an impact on the thinking, and culture of a society. Which can change BEFORE any change in language to match that thinking does.

[@gary_stavropoulos]

“You don’t have oral traditions in the New Testament” that statement is false. Stories about Jesus were told for decades before they were written.

[@tgrogan6049]

Fantastic job!

[@boysrus61]

This was excellent. Most above my head and definitely needs to be listened to twice, but Dr L breaks it down to a mostly understandable way. WOW. Great research.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

As Dr. Lundwall said this is a graduate level college course taught in 2 hours but he does a great job explaining this information. We have learned so much from our friend!

[@MichaelMorriseT]

Why does it need to be alphabetical? There were hundreds of Egyptian hieroglyphs in Middle Egyptian. I don't understand the insistence on an alphabet.

[@jordanwoods462]

1:47:34 if the lamanites were supposedly also literate, then no final battle that killed off the nephites should’ve wiped out the lamanite writing

[@jonny9998]

Did anyone notice how many times he concedes that most scholars don't agree with his model. From a historical and archaeological perspective, his theory is remarkably reductive, bordering on racist.

[@maxjenkins7139]

This is amazing He is so right. Thanks

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Fantastically informative and powerful

[@swankiestnerd8277]

Y’all need to read Joseph Cambell’s “Primitive Mythology”

[@robertgrey8648]

Absolutely fascinating!! Thank you Rebecca and Landon for making this possible. Awesome time travel-trip to the origins of civilization, religion, and writing. I can see the connection now! Love it!! Yes, we need to have John back. His arguments are well founded and make perfect sense. What a brilliant mind! You guys rock :)!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thanks Robert! John is just so knowledgeable on all of this we knew it had to get out!

[@robertgrey8648]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Truly an eye opener!! This definitely needs to get out!

[@funkyfreshtx]

can I get a copy of these slides?

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

I prefer the quote from Richard Bushman where he claims the Book of Mormon is doctrinally correct, but not historically correct.

[@Tina06019]

That is an interesting take on The Book of Mormon.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

The problem with that statement is that the Book of Mormon doesn’t contain any of the doctrines that are uniquely Mormon. No priesthood, no temple ceremonies, no three degrees of glory, no Baptisms for the Dead, no Laying on of Hands, no three unique individuals in the godhead, no garments, no Word of Wisdom, condemns polygamy, etc, etc, etc….it doesn’t even get the doctrine right!!!

[@krismurphy7711]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Priesthood is mentioned. FYI

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Plus all the passages from the Bible inserted into the BM. But I do like King Benjamin's speech.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@krismurphy7711 Sure. The word "priesthood" is mentioned, along with the term "high priest" and IIRC even the name Melchizedek is mentioned once or twice. But the mention of those words is quite different from setting out the doctrines related to priesthood that characterize the LDS church. Nothing is really said about the organization of the priesthood or the specific offices and their functions (deacon, teacher, priest, elder and so on). Nothing about the Aaronic Priesthood...and nothing about the Melchizedek Priesthood being a specific order of priesthood. Nothing about priesthood blessings or who can hold the priesthood. The references to "high priests" and "priesthood" are vague and simply seem to be nothing more than an attempt to imply that the Lehites are living like Old Testament people. Mormons have to work backwards to "find" their doctrines about priesthood in the BoM, like: "Look! It says 'priesthood'! That must be talking about all the same complicated doctrines about priesthood authority that we believe in now!"

[@Gideonslc]

This is awesome! Thank you!