Europe's Fender Crackdown - Fender Fined Millions

[@markusm.8302]

I would like to mention that there were actually two things fined: 1) Vertical price-fixing agreements between the manufacturers and the dealers and 2) horizontal price-fixing agreements between the biggest German/European dealer and a significant competitor. I can understand that 1) can be debated, especially on the background of smaller dealers, but I don‘t think 2) can…

[@Dram1984]

You mean Government rules and regulations have unforeseen side effects that end up hurting the people they’re supposedly trying to help? Why I’ve never heard of such a thing. Surely our wise and benevolent bureaucrats know everything and can make detailed decisions for all economics sectors.

[@friedrudibega6384]

Weird, huh?

[@ultimaweapon991]

"Oh no, the poor megacorps, who are down to earth folk just like me. Whatever shall they do about the **gasp** gubbermint overreach!?"

[@CurrieNerd]

The government rules and regulations are (generally) full of side effects that suit the business interests of those that lobby the most, and those that make sure their business is 'off shore', to avoid the inconvenience of paying a reasonable amount of tax.

[@mehAudio]

I think what needs to be said is that the EU advocates heavily for price transparency towards the consumer. If you want to advertise an item, you have to show the actual sales price. A great percentage of online shoppers click through to the payment section without negotiating for a better price. And since all countries have VAT in place, the price has to include VAT. By law. Also, you have to be able to look up shipping cost easily before an order and it has to be included in the TOTAL. Again, price transparency. There should never be any surprises like insurances, handling cost, customs, etc. after you placed an order. Of course, the system is not supposed to make selling items unprofitable, antitrust laws simply forbid behind the scenes negotiations aimed at artificially inflating price levels. If you as a dealer think you can be profitable with a lower margin, you should be allowed, without threat of repercussion, to advertise at a lower price. Again, the advertised price, especially online, will in most cases be the actual price paid. Basically, it's about ensuring a free capitalistic market with fair rules. Now, that's at least the spirit in which these rules were established. If this specific case hits the mark, I can't tell.

[@floaty10]

That is not how i read it. By not having a minimum set price, like in America, the large guitar stores like PMT can undercut the small music shops as they can soak up the losses through the sheer number of sales. The smaller shops can't compete with the squeeze on margins. The small music relatailers can't afford to have Fender and Gibson franchises as they aren't guaranteed to sell these guitars. That's why when i look in the window of a small guitar shop (should there be any left nowadays) i will usually be staring at a lot of cheap tat.

[@mehAudio]

@@floaty10 maybe true. I’m not sure the price alone is what keeps some brands out of small shops. Don’t Gibson and fender require minimum order amounts before they supply a shop? If you’re forced to stock a minimum of 50 Gibsons and you know you can sell maybe two locally, there’s no way you’re going to stock that brand at all. Also, in this case, it wasn‘t big shops trying to undercut. It was shops and brands keeping prices up.

[@xneurianx]

@@mehAudio This. Pricing isn't the point; stocking Gibson and Fender in Europe is expensive. Even if they late you place a small order, you have to place a big order to compensate for the massive shipping costs. Otherwise you're stuck with a higher per-product cost and you STILL can't sell as cheap as the big stores. Also, historically Gibson wouldn't allow you to stock them if you sold certain other brands (basically ones that make LP copies, like Encore / Vintage etc) which meant you would have to stop stocking affordable guitars that sell quick and keep your turnover solid month on month just to invest in a big Gibson order that might sit on the shelves for a few months before selling. You might make a big profit on each sale, but your cash flow is screwed in the mean time. Basically what Gibson and Fender do in Europe is make it impossible for small shops to stock them and then make agreements with the big stockists that keep the prices fixed pretty high. You can't ship around so you just have to pay the inflated price.

[@jamesdeananderson1411]

This while thread is fantastic. Thank you for the detailed explanations.

[@christopherwilliams375]

And as true blue American, my problem with MAP pricing is cultural. American shopping culture doesn’t include bargaining with very few exceptions. We don’t shop that way unless we’re buying a house or a car or a handful of other large purchases, but our shopping culture doesn’t really involve bargaining, and MAP pricing forces negotiation unless you want to pay top pricing. Many of us simply aren’t comfortable with bargaining because we weren’t brought up to do that.

[@jonathanbowen2387]

Hank Marvin got the first Fender Strat in Britain, Cliff Richards bought it for him. It was a 1959 Fender Stratocaster Fiesta Red with Gold Fixtures

[@CasinoGuitars]

Yes hank Marvin that was it…the brain fog was real:)

[@Barbarapape]

Hank's first Strat was not in Fiesta Red, it according to Hank and Bruce Welch who now has the guitar was a pink, the exact colour is open the debate.

[@PeterWasted]

@@Barbarapape This is true. Both Hank and Bruce have stated that the guitar was "Pink" specifically Salmon Pink. The problem is that Fender didn't paint guitars in Salmon Pink. My understanding is that the most likely cause of a "Pink" colour would be poorly mixed Fiesta Red. What would be most interesting to know is was the guitar pink while at the factory and did Fender let it go, knowing that it was such a rare overseas sale that there would be no comeback?

[@Barbarapape]

@@PeterWasted You could be right regarding the bad mix of Fiesta Red. Fender used Dupont car paint in the early days, with each batch being a slighty different shade. We complain about Fenders iffy quality today, but back then with the way they were hand built, the varitaion in samples must have been even greater. Hank has said that whilst the Strat looked the part, due to a poor factory setup it was hard to play.

[@wildersparks9161]

People don’t really complain about Fender quality.

[@xneurianx]

I think the European model is more 'American' feeling, in the traditional sense. Basically, it looks out for the small businesses and the consumer. You'll note it's not 'mom and pop' stores that are getting hit by this, it's the massive ones. The small shops do really well under our system. America seems to reward big companies who can afford to negotiate and drop their prices because they're selling in bulk. Seems to look out for the enormous companies and screw the consumers and small businesses and disguise that as a 'free market' and 'personal freedom'. You're still being dictated to, though, if you aren't allowed to advertise whatever price you want.

[@BlackDogOriginal]

Government overreach is bad no matter which continent you live on.

[@guanweihe7614]

@@BlackDogOriginal tell me that again when millions of Texans got power cuts because of unreliable unregulated power grids, you get priced gouged for medical care and get 0 federally mandated days off, there’s no maternity leave etc etc Government regulation can be bad, government regulation against predatory extremely capitalist work exploitation is good

[@BlackDogOriginal]

@@guanweihe7614 Get a job. Government isn’t your daddy. And enjoy your windmills

[@ultimaweapon991]

@@BlackDogOriginal imagine having such severe Stockholm Syndrome for daddy late stage capitalism that the idea of someone advocating for better conditions, pay and benefits for the work they do makes you immediately assume they're jobless and dependent on the government

[@xneurianx]

@@BlackDogOriginal Government overreach Vs Corporate overreach. Either way it's people with more power and money than they have any need for dictating things that affect you negatively. At least the Government 'overreach' in Europe protects small business and honest hard-working consumers. Corporate overreach just hurts everyone except the corporation's. It's why in the UK we pay £9 for any and all prescription drugs and you guys pay thousands of dollars for some; you let companies do whatever they want and pretend it's about freedom when it's really about lobbyists controlling your government and big business controlling everything else. America is 'free' but only within the parameters acceptable to about 10 different corporations. I'll take some government intervention in that kinda situation, any time. It's all well and good spouting off rhetoric about hard work etc. but when Coca Cola break the law, how does a mom & pop soda business fight back? The courts favour the rich and your government has absolutely no balls.

[@stephanematis]

Friends in government have a saying "If you think the problem is bad, wait until you see our solution". Legit.

[@potatosdont-surf6982]

Me: How far is it to Southern Pines? Jonathan: Nahtfarious

[@CasinoGuitars]

Win!

[@1968joseph1]

Nothing sucked worse back in the day than to buy an expensive product like guitars or autos and find out I could have saved a fortune right around the corner. The interwebs seem to have helped in that regard.

[@stevegamiello6476]

Hank Marvin and the Shadows. The red strat in England

[@brosiii2558]

you have to understand that we have no MAP here in Germany. Now following happens. We have 2 big players here in germany - the so called musicstore professional and Thomann as you might now. Additional to those two there are also one or two huge other stores but those are not as "mighty" as Thomann and Musicstore, but still huge. We have also many many small or at least smaller companys and shops. now imagine the big shops, specially Thomann and Musicstore can buy lets say 500 guitars and therefore they got better conditions so they can sell those guitars for an overall cheaper price and they still able to earn money with lets say a 5% Margin because they payed less for those guiars from fender and they sell a lot. Smaller companys can only buy 5 or 10 guitars from fender, therefore paying a higher price to fender. clear so far... now fender did following: they told those big stores, mainly Thomann and Musicstore,, that the should have a 25% margin on the purchasing price to stop the dumping and predatory pricing. Its because all those many many smaller companys arent able to go with that price because of the higher purchasing costs. so fender regulated the market with it and fender made it possible that those smaller shops can still compete in terms of pricing with those 2 big.with that action, they saved themselves their buyers and additional to that, whihc is positive for the customer, they saved many small companys here in germany because we were still able to sell their products with a margin to work with. Anyway its not allowed to regulate the market from a private company here in germany and that the reason fender was forced to pay. You know if all smaller shops would die we as customers and fender would get into trouble very fast because of the monopole of those 2 big companys. they could easily put all producers under a lot of pressure with lower pruchasing prices which would ulitmately lead to a smaller product variety and sooner or later with a worse quality of the product.additional to this they saved many companys and enables them still earning money from their purchases. fender did something unlawful which saved a lot of companys and made the economic competition at least a bit fairer for many companys.I think they should invent a MAP or they should rearrange some of those old fashioned silly laws.

[@nekrovulpes]

Call me cynical but I seriously doubt Fender's main priority here was looking after those poor little independent music stores. I mean... Just, I must be a real skeptic, but it just seems like an awfully convenient coincidence, that this also juuust happened to mean, that the big stores have to sell Fender at a higher price...

[@ImNotOld_ImVintage]

News flash! Anderton's is in the UK. The UK is no longer a part of the European Union, so this lawsuit shouldn't affect them. I have no idea if the UK has similar laws. The whole point of MAP is to level the playing field. Companies like Sweetwater could run the small stores completely out of business by setting advertised prices at smaller margins because of quantity. Small brick and mortar stores couldn't complete.

[@individualmember]

The way EU laws work is that they are agreed in the EU structure, council - commission - parliament, then they are set into law in every country by their own government in their own way. There isn’t a separate layer of law that is ‘EU law’ that is different to national laws. So all those laws that were agreed in Brussels and passed into UK law over the years are still UK law until the British government changes them. No laws became invalid in the UK due to the fact that we left the EU, and let’s face it the British government has had a lot of other things to do in the last eight months.

[@petelewis6920]

First guy to get a strat in the UK was Hank Marvin from the Shadows. It was bought for him by Cliff Richard, The Shadows were his backing band. The guitar is now owned by Bruce Welsh, the rhythm guitarist from the Shadows. Hank Marvin is the reason that Fiesta Red is so popular in the UK.

[@janzahalka9096]

EU lawyer here. You're missing the point by a lot! Simply put - in the EU, you are not allowed to anyhow limit and/or control pricing down the distribution chain. Premise is, if otherwise, the big companies can control the market via the orice control, thus gaining too much power. Which would not really help the consumer in a long run in any way. The other extreme you described is called "predatory pricing" and it's outlawed as well. Do you feel this is too much state control and US is elswhere? Study on US 30s railway worker struggle and FDR regulations thatbsolved that for you 😉

[@chrisward3110]

Sounds like you might need to do some research on FDR, he prolonged the great depression and many parts of The New Deal were merely bandaids for the economic problems at the time. Some of those systems he put in place are STILL failing Americans today. MAP pricing helps protect the smaller mom and pop shops who can't afford to sell at a loss while larger retailers can sell large volumes and recoup said loss. There's no one perfect system so being smug and assuming your system is more correct is ridiculous.

[@dboone7670]

@UCWlUByKZL09d_M_9jsSSdzA You speak with such confidence for an idiot

[@alpaca7886]

Just because there is a law doesn't necessarily mean it is a good law. What is the intent of the law as well as the intent of MAP? Both are for protection of the consumer. But there needs to be a better balance. Trying to legislate intelligence never works. As a consumer, MAP gives me a starting point. However but in the end the choice is mine to make a purchase. MAP for me is relevant to items from the same brand. As I am comparison shopping I am not just looking for the cheapest price. Bottom line is the entity with the most money and better lawyer wins. Not many things translate well into other countries. But ultimately the consumer suffers in the end.

[@bwilson4030]

He may have solved a railroad struggle. But the Great Depression was booming until… the war time economy of WWII.

[@ImNotOld_ImVintage]

I think the EU is missing the point. MAP doesn't control the price a store is required to sell for, it keeps high volume (large) online sellers from advertising at margins small brick and mortar stores can't compete at. They can all still sell at those small margins if they wish. They just can't advertise those prices. In the states if a store wants to set prices and continually sell for under MAP, they advertise as "Call or come in for pricing"

[@SeanAllocca]

As an American who has lived in Europe since 2007 I can tell you this, the USSR did not fall in 1989, it just moved to Brussels.

[@monstrok]

12:26 What about French Toast? This situation is ideal for large retailers that can make up lower margins with higher sales volumes. A large US retailer, with many centers for guitars, put all but one of my local instrument music stores out of business with that tactic and that one only survived because they also catered to the school band equipment market. Who lost out in the end? Yes, the consumer buying from a company with questionable sales practices, the small non-chain business owners that paid good wages, their employees and the instrument/equipment makers who have to deal with a company that has a demonstrated failure to pay the invoices.

[@BluesAndNoise]

We're so used to the abuses of monopolies in America, we're shocked when any government pushes back. Anyway, Leo Fender is long dead. It's silly that Fender (the company) is allowed to have a stranglehold on any of his inventions or designs. Same goes for Gibson, tbh. These companies don't need to exist to keep the traditional builds alive.

[@bob733333]

You don't need to exist.

[@BluesAndNoise]

@@bob733333 definitely true for all of us, yet here we are

[@ultimaweapon991]

Based and Reasonablepilled

[@juanvaldez4043]

As a retailer, what’s your stance on people who are willing to pay full price but want you to throw in a bag or some cables, or a tuner? I always negotiate on add-Ons instead of trying to drive down price.

[@richardlewis1243]

A good example of state owned production and manufacturing in the U.S. is office furniture. The federal prison system has carpentry programs that make and assemble office furniture which are then sold through G.S.A. contracts. General service administration approved vendors & contractors have very strict rules about which way they can spend federal dollars. Not necessarily on topic but we do have state controlled production in the U.S.

[@haldasinger6440]

Baxter equating government agencies focused on consumer protection with state-owned guitar outlets is hands down the most unreasonable thing I've heard on this channel. Consumer protection is unfamiliar in the US, but that doesn't make it communist. Think about a truss rod adjustment hidden in the neck pocket requiring removal of the neck and then think whether there might be better ways of doing things other than US traditional models. Love you guys, love the show, but this was nuts.

[@ultimaweapon991]

Lot of boomer/Republican takes in the comments here because a lot of people leaning that way in the US have been primed by politicians to think that anything that might actually punish massive corporations for not following the rules, or basically any economic policy utilized in Europe, is communist lol

[@danriley903]

a retailer/wholesaler should be able to sell for whatever they want. don't like it buy somewhere else. free enterprise. i'm a retailer, it's TOUGH!! , ADAPT OR DIE!

[@BasementGuitarSuperstar]

I can see MAP being a good thing because it keeps big online retailers who are buying in bulk from squeezing the mom and pop shops out of business

[@markbassman]

Back in the 70’s and 80’s I bought a lot of gear and always got 40% off retail. The first item I bought for list price was my 1979 Mesa Boogie which I custom ordered and waited six months. Today it’s hard to get any deep discounts unless it’s a close out.

[@Luthiart]

I think you got 40% off MSRP, which isn't a deal. MSRP was intended to make you THINK you were getting 40% off.

[@markbassman]

@@Luthiart Back then it was a deal. Bought several new Les Pauls, Including custom and heritage series along with bicentennial firebird, strats and a Rickenbacker. Never paid over $800 for any of them. Most were way less

[@duanewelsh5611]

MAP pricing helps brick & mortar stores compete with internet sellers on a level playing field. A good thing!

[@CasinoGuitars]

We tend to agree:)

[@cgmoog]

I agree but I'm unclear as to what the EU fined Fender for. The article I read said Fender got the larger retailers to agree not to sell for less than a set price and that several large retailers agreed to a minimum price they would sell equipment for. That is quite different that MAP. Buyers need to have some integrity as well. You shouldn't use a Brick and Mortar store to comparison shop with the intention of buying online. MAP at least makes that harder to do.

[@_clauscarstensen]

Here in Europe, it's not about pressuring companies to sell for the lowest possible price. The point is: To prevent the companies making agreements among themselves that hinders competition, which will prevent customers having the chance to buy products for a fair price, not an unfairly raised one. If a company like, say, Fender sells products for a price that is not fixed like that, all good.

[@joshuacottington7225]

Worked at a couple of different UK guitar shops. One big box store and a mom and pop store. 'Price Fixing' allows small shops to compete with larger ones. Large shops could negotiate lower buying prices as they can buy in bulk and potentially price smaller shops out of the market. As a customer you could still negotiate for a cheaper price. It's also bollocks that it is better for the consumer. The consumer doesn't have to shop around as prices are consistent.

[@railmastercnr]

The last thing I need is another guitar, so I’m gonna buy one from Casino because I like your show.

[@mickavoidant4780]

How unlawful price fixing works is the maker will sell only through one reseller and the two will set an overly high price for the buyer.

[@wesmatron]

Having worked in the game industry I have seen another side of company's pricing shenanigans: Buy a game in England for one price... same digital media costs less in India. The richer the country, the more you get screwed on the price... FOR THE SAME PRODUCT.

[@ruediger78]

Interesting. In Germany in the 70s we got the system where the manufacture can only define a recommended retail price (but the shops must have the freedom to set the final price). With MAP a manufacturer could just dictate a higher price and i don't fully agree on the benefit for smaller local stores. If it was price alone that would drive people to a store they might (barely) survive but the internet shops would make even higher profits per unit than they would if the market was free and they had to compete with the other web shops. The cool thing with local stores is that you can pick things up, test them out and buy the one you try. And you might even have someone there that knows their stuff and might recommend you something you didn'r really think about - but we as customers should appreciate that and be willing to pay something extra for that.

[@jeffmckinnon5842]

58 years old and never bought a guitar in a box. I have bought demonstrators or used, mostly in mint condition but I still always play before I buy so I never cared about the brand new price.

[@philmanson2991]

Rory Gallagher bought the first Strat in Ireland second-hand from Crowley's Music in Cork. It had previously been owned by Jim Conlon, lead guitarist of the band Irish Showband.

[@tallthinkev]

8:10 all the small shops have already gone. 15 years ago five shops, now only PMT, other wise it's a 40+ mile trip

[@ChrisDeVido]

Baxter, you mentioned Guitar shows. Are you guys going to Asheville this weekend?

[@CasinoGuitars]

We will be there!

[@nilesterrat2483]

I think that the first red Stratocaster sold in England went to Hank Marvin from the band: "The Shadows"

[@blacktele7215]

This is probably simplistic but I figure once a store purchases the product from Fender, Apple or whoever, it's then theirs to sell at whatever price they want.

[@rickmoore52]

I wondered why prices had become the same everywhere. Maybe it's a good thing, then I can just buy from my favorite retailer and not worry about missing out on a better price somewhere else. And if I want a "deal" then I can buy used which helps out the musician who is selling for whatever reason.

[@bldallas]

20 years ago, I bought a really nice Epiphone Les Paul, from Guitar Center, for half of it’s sticker price. The guitar was marked $300 and I spent about an hour working the guy down to $150ish. It played great, after I did a thorough set up. It was black and ended up changing out all the cream colored plastic with black. Wish I still had the damn thing.

[@brynjones7371]

The British guy with the red strat is Hank Marvin from the band The Shadows.

[@DeirdreSM]

I guess Rickenbacker isn't big enough to warrant a mention. ;) I personally like MAP because I hate haggling. I do have a story about Turkey, though. Right outside the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul, I was looking for a very Turkish style of dangly earrings, but the shop only had more modern (and more expensive) ones. The sales guy said, "come with me," (to a place outside the store) and I'm thinking, "Oh no, this is how women disappear." But he took me to a store not far inside the Grand Bazaar that had exactly what I'd been looking for. You wouldn't see that in the US, but it's fairly common in Turkey.

[@iamanovercomer3253]

It's sad that Fender in the top has to rig prices‼️

[@jimmygrant3151]

Total profits between all those companies...$1/2 billion with annual sale reaching over 2.5 billion...21 million hardly constitutes a punishment.

[@SiggyMe]

Map allows sales to be spread out among competitors by preventing from cut throat pricing that actually harms consumers. Then consumers can then negotiate the price and then move elsewhere if they think they can do better. I'm for it.

[@30smsuperstrat]

Casino will be state owned then when Baxter and Jonathan say something controversial they go to the Gulag.😆

[@Heavymetallord1]

Baxter, it is totally your movie ramblings that bring me back to each video The guitar talk is just icing on the cake lol

[@tball5677]

The movie ramblings makes me thankful for the fast forward feature.

[@Dylan-ji5ug]

I think you guys did a great job of explaining the good in MAP pricing. On the surface MAP pricing sounds bad to customers but I think we dont realize the level playing field it provides and that without it dealers could mark them up even more. There are a lot of companies out there making obscene profits and paying their employees like shit, but I dont think we as customers need to treat guitar shops like they are Amazon. If anything MAP pricing helps shops like yours compete with Amazon or any big box retailer that could otherwise out purchase and undercut you till you werent around anymore, then jack up the prices. I used to go to a shop near me that when we were talking price, hed pull up what he paid right on the screen and wed go from there. Customers need to get out of the idea that someone making money off your purchase is bad. If you want the guitar shop to be there next time.... they have to make money off you lol.

[@chopper4484]

Fundamentally the wholesaler Fender cannot use its market power to force a minimum price on a retailer. If the retailer buys from Fender at $1000 and wants to sell at $500 its their business not Fenders.

[@bob733333]

Then Fender can stop selling to them.

[@alpaca7886]

It is Minimum Advertising Price, not sales price. If a company wants to sell at a loss they can, but not for long

[@marco_correnti]

fully agree. especially if they want to buy 500 items...I always wondered why music store and thomann never seem to transfer the savings of bulk buy to the custumer. Say what you will about amazon, but they understood this early on.

[@davismiller3769]

No, it's Fenders business most of the time, because most retailers will get the guitars on consignment, not bought outright. They'll pay Fender when the guitar sells. Fender absolutely can tell them the minimum that they should sell something that isn't theirs for.

[@jeremyjames8678]

Price fixing is when companies collude with each other to fix prices, rather than the prices being based on supply and demand. It is detrimental to the consumer

[@alangreenway6695]

As opposed to the good old days of Denmark Street where nothing was priced so you asked the sales person and you could see them picking random numbers out of their head without looking at any pricelist.

[@keithangstadt4950]

It was like that with the vendors when I was stationed in Korea. If you were a young guy they figured you had money to burn. If you were older they figured you probably had a wife, kids and a house back home and would offer a better price from the start

[@tkjrmiller]

McFadyen and Edwards Music! I went to High School in Fayetteville and shopped at both places. I used to take guitar lessons at McFadyen from Jimmy Herring : ) Joey O'Neil was running the place.

[@saleseng]

Yep he made the rounds at Parker music and Edwards as well I took a lesson from him there once before he left town.

[@mikecorey8370]

Those companies should just say know, and pull out, taking their tax dollars with them.

[@rstuartcpa]

If we just buy used guitars…it don’t even matter

[@MrDream-zm1pw]

basically 90% of my guitars, yes.

[@allisonholmesmusic97]

But for there to be used guitars _someone_ has to buy it new

[@sidewaysrain7609]

Washington Music Center (CHUCK LEVINS) in MD 1950's -1980s where cheapest retailer in the world 40%off MSRP before negotiating another 5% depend on salesmen. In the late 70's their sales were 2 million per month!

[@erickmo1188]

Love the almost daily vids guys

[@mattmullenix]

Respect my authoritah!!!

[@nekrovulpes]

I haven't bought any gear for a while but I noticed last year, it was weird how every single store would be selling their shit at identical prices. The places that had stock would be selling it at one price, the places that didn't selling it like 10-15% cheaper, but all of them IDENTICAL. I remember thinking, there's no way these assholes weren't all colluding with each other, and I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be illegal. Guess I was right. Like, in theory the internet should help customers find the best deal; but in reality the sellers are just using it so they can easily settle on the ONLY deal.

[@heikojakob6491]

The US guitar market is dominated by Sweetwater and Guitarcenter, the Guitar market outside the US is dominated by the two resellers that got fined Thomann and Musicstore ... So just think about what hell would break loose if Sweetwater and Guitarcenter where cought in price fixing ...

[@gr8tnowwhat]

MAP is a good thing. It limits the businesses who only want to race to the bottom on pricing and drag everyone else down to match them. Most times those businesses do not care about what they are selling. Its only an advertised price policy anyway. You can always try to work out a deal at the time of purchase.

[@TheMuseumOfMistakes]

Your comment at 8:09 is exactly what Andertons did over here in the UK. Disgraceful really (and they did other unscrupulous things I wont go into in public) and put lots of smaller shops around them out of business. They bill themselves as 'nice chaps' on here but are far from it.

[@ScatZacc]

I have yet to pick up a les paul that doesn't have some sort of blemish or impurity but that's what makes them unique like all of us I love my les paul but it is weird how ppl can make up the own prices

[@surinderpunia2804]

Jonathan Robinson is 'Merica - Fuck Yeah!

[@Terryomalleyonline]

Australian laws allow manufacturers to set a Maximum Promotional retail price but they cannot set a minimum price.

[@Sailor_Man_Music]

Some car dealerships are not willing to negotiate on used cars. Taking the car max approach. If you go over seas like to Greece, or to the Middle East. A lot of foreign stores are that way. My buddy bought an American Strat back in 2011 in Bahrain, and he got it cheaper than what there original price was. At the time I wasn’t very interested in guitars so I didn’t know what to look for as far as a real Strat is concerned.

[@nicoladolby2154]

Can I add another point to this? A VOS 1959 Gibson Les Paul re-issue at Sweetwater is $6,499. At GuitarGuitar the same model is £5,699 or $7,867.47 . Given the import duties & shipping will be the same, you can see now why there is a real problem. Especially as these UK prices have now become the 'going rate'?

[@FlummoxedCartwright]

VAT is at 20% of the sale price plus import at 3.5% in the UK which takes a huge chunk out of your margin. Doesn't compare to sales tax in the US on guitars that don't have to travel overseas.

[@nicoladolby2154]

@@FlummoxedCartwright In the UK, VAT is included in the price. In the US, VAT is 10%, which when added to the above telecaster brings the price you pay to $1,649. This means the UK charges $389 more. Import duty to the UK is 3.5%, which on the guitar is $13.62. Given that the usual import cost (which you don’t pay duty on) is usually around $100 for bulk orders of this size, the profit on the guitar is just under $275. That’s for each guitar.$275 is £199.34 so as you can see, these British shops are making just under £200 per guitar at this price, which is roughly a 15% mark-up per instrument.

[@277southtombob]

I haven’t thought about it in a while but I remember going in a music store and looking at the MSRP and doing the half plus 10% in my head. I’ve bought a few guitars that way.

[@ryanseanmusicandlove]

I think youre right. Force them to sell below map value and they will be forced to also make the product cheaper ie lower quality

[@somebodyelseuk]

The guitarist with the red Strat - first in UK - was Hank Marvin of The Shadows. It wasn't that Fender weren't 'in the market', it was that there was a US/UK trade embargo on luxury goods imports after WW2, which wasn't lifted until around 1960. The rest of the vid. Law is law, whether you agree with it or not. If you want to exist in a space, you have to abide by the law of that place, or prepare to be punished. US law only applies in the US, UK law only applies in the UK, etc etc.

[@michaelblaney4461]

You could get deals in the old days (late 70s early 80s) . I the Chicago area you had some stores that always had deals , like DJ's music you could sometimes get a couple hundred less then the prevailing price. There were much more guitars available back then especially for Gibson and Rics. I didn't need to wait 3 years to find a 4001 or 4003 bass

[@VixCrush]

Philip McKnight did a good segment on this.

[@revtimewest]

How can anyone justify some company charging 2500 for a les paul type guitar when comparable examples are 500 or less?

[@sublyme2157]

What is a fair amount to ask off of MAP? 10%? 20%?

[@davedavid7061]

I can pick up used Squier Affinities on Marketplace or craigslist for 3-4 hundred dollars all day long. Or I can go to Guitar Center and buy one for $230. Oh Yeah, they list em as Fenders also

[@alandunn4459]

In Australia Retail Price Maintenence is illegal. Manufacturers argue that advertising at a lower price than their recommended minimim is detrimental to the brands prestige. The legislation argues that it is detrimental to competition. It also has consequences with respect to predatory pricing that drives smaller sellers out of the market place - because bigger stores have greater counterveilling power with manufacturers than smaller shops. Market concentration increases, prices increase, and consumers pay more. This is the theory - I'm not agreeing or disagreeing.

[@homeworldmusic]

I can not by a Fender guitar or Nikon camera or etc etc with any difference in price anywhere. Why is that ok?

[@kestrel5204]

i do like that guitar shopping is less like car shopping. i’m not good at that type of shopping.

[@Barbarapape]

This huge fine is no surprise to me. Living in good old Ripp off U.K. we have for many decades paid way more than the USA and other markets for our guitars regardless of brand. Today "MAP" pricing seems to be imposed on the retailers, you need to pick up the phone to get a better deal rather than just pay the website price. GAK and many others have different prices for the same guitar on various websites, i always check their website price, and most times it is less than Reverb, ebay etc. As said in the video, that advertised price is a starting point, you need to ask for the best price.

[@legomasterthe3rd240]

People should want to support their local shops and businesses, why wouldn't you want to buy the guitar you played and fell in love with. Its part of the magic. MAP is an incentive to buy from the small shops, and the fact that people would want to spend thousands on something unseen seems foreign to me. That being said, i have done it, but had to spend hundreds on the gear to get it to my liking.

[@flaviosanguigni8783]

Markets in US and EU ar quite different in terms of price, accessibility and I would say sometimes even quality...I lived in both places, and everything in EU is made to discurage direct buy in US both for privates and small retailers. That said, I see big shops in EU like the ones mentioned that stick on some prices well above the minimum price fixed by Fender and still sell huge amounts of gear because they can provide fast service, some colours choice and good customer service...so I guess they have a special relationship with Fender. Personally, when I have to buy something, and I did a lot in EU in the last 2 years, I shop around, I ask questions and than I go for what I think is the best deal with the most fair amount of risk...meaning that if you buy your CS stratocaster from a small shop in Spain from Germany you do have some risks since you cannot test it before and if something goes wrong is not so easy deal with it...All in all the market should be free...many more guitars would be sold, and big guys like fender, gibson or PRS should not be neither scared of it nor fined for.

[@danielphillipsmusic9145]

The EU is nuts, but then again what bureaucratic leviathan isn't?

[@diegoschwartz3519]

I dont get it, so then i can technically offer say 10% less than the price offered at a guitar center, and they could accept or reject based on whether the price i offered is above the price they paid to fender???

[@bencampbell1609]

So, you talked movies and then for your road trip discussion you Easter Egged us with a good Better Off Dead reference; French Fries, French Bread, French Dressing. Baxter just needed to be smeared in paint thinner and wearing a tie on his head like a bandana to pull of a decent Cusack impression. Oh, and you talked about guitars. What more do I need to start my morning? Keep it up!!!

[@joeltaylor4821]

I purchased a new Heritage H150 from Israel because I got a better price than in the USA even with shipping!

[@jamesdeananderson1411]

FACT: Great industry info... but the most important part of this conversation is that Ragnarok was mentioned.

[@iainfreeman5112]

Hank Marvin from the Shadows. Cliff Richard (the frontman singer) bought it for him. 1st Strat in the UK.

[@morganghetti]

I was in Raleigh last week for a concert and was unable to talk my wife into driving over to the store. I'm still upset about it.

[@brucer261]

Great video guys. Never heard of MAP until now. Quite familiar with MSRP

[@Birkguitars]

For a county such as the USA which claims that it welcomes free enterprise the effect of MAP and any form of price management leans deeply into the area where capitalism leads to monopoly positions. Others have commented on MAP preventing big corporations pricing local stores out of business but if MAP is combined with minimum order numbers paid for up front then the big corporations are absolutely killing the smaller stores. Price is not the only measure of anti-competitive behaviour and willingness to supply, minimum terms attached to that supply and repercussions for a store that steps out of line all play a part. The internet has given the consumer access to the entire market so the major players here in the UK all have a massive online presence to boost their market share while their stores allow for direct hands on experience. Sadly it looks like we have just lost Dawsons maybe for good this time but this is the new reality. The major manufacturers are adding to the pressure through minimum order requirements and price maintenance which cranks up the risk level in buying stock but limits a shop's ability to shift old stock at discounted prices.

[@juancarlosgonzalezconde6958]

I do not really understand how in the Earth is it possible these guys do not have more subscribers… keep on digging

[@CasinoGuitars]

We agree share the word my friend!

[@216trixie]

I've worked in too much retail to try and bargain down a price when I go into a store. Pawn shop yes, retail store no.

[@Louis_Rain]

I do remember the good ole days when you could walk in to a bigger store with cash and offer about 30% off the list and usually get the deal. I love to haggle when I have cash in hand. One of my good buddies stopped going into guitar stores with me because of my bargaining! It's fun!

[@MarcStanton1]

Yes, as they call them the wild west of guitar shopping days. It was great you knew what the list price was, you did some basic math and offered them 65% of the list price and that was acceptable generally. I specifically remember buying my Taylor 910 at guitar center in 2007, we just made a deal and it was 3100 with tax out the door. The salesman likes you because you knew what you wanted and what you wanted to pay and they knew they could make some money so they were happy and sold it to you.

[@alexwalker5645]

Fender should say “OK, the check is in the mail…..”

[@johnstasio6205]

Retail has never Europe’s best trick , and they have the VAT they are always shooting them selves in the foot🤧

[@ChrisEck13]

I still don't really understand what Fender and the other companies are alleged to have done. Did they set minimum prices? And is that illegal in Europe? And regardless of whether we agree with the laws and regulations in place, they are still in place. And I'm sure Fender has attorneys who have a detailed understanding of those laws. Unfortunately we can't just choose not to follow laws and regulations because we don't agree with them. I don't even know what Fender did wrong but I'm sure if this was Gibson instead of Fender, the internet wouldn't be so forgiving.

[@raeree1]

Hey Guys,I'm always checking out your crazy comentaries 'bout what's up and just general talk with the Awesome BackGround of Excellent Guitars and Amps!Anyway I was checking out Thomann/Harley Benton Guitars by checking out Guitar Max;I always try to get a deal(percents off/sales/shipping/clearance/whatnot in regards to this).I was checking out a fender squire bullet or something like that and the price was $155 Brand new so I was going to put it in my cart.Well wadd-do-u-no,You can't "NOT AVAILAILBLE FOR US SHIPPING".And the Tele-Styled T-40 Black with Gold trim going for $158 with duel humbuckers,most recently, nothing new to you guys, price increased in shipping;making it even harder to get your new,some sort of guitar jones on and this same guitar is listed for $425 on ebay(not that you care).Yes you gotta Shop and KNOW whut's up LIKE some people who jump in and don't do some kinda research Taylored to your wanted/need.Hey if ignorance is bliss and you just flat out pay, that's those peep's deal!WOW That's Some SH*T 'Bout the Euro Fender Crackdown.Thanks for the info guys.

[@tomeasley3538]

I was talking to a guy who closed his shop, he said hey I had the cheapest guitars before I closed

[@scottbrower9052]

"We paid more for this piece, sir." Oh, yeah? Then don't sell it.

[@clintbowers5524]

I was wondering why prices were so consistent across the board nowadays.

[@דורשטיין-ט1ו]

Happy b-day Baxter!

[@chrisjeneson3763]

First red Strat went to Hank Marvin of the Shadows.

[@theprisonier]

You can buy in Europe a strat like, with better finishes, for less than a F. F is a good brand but the prices are like G, tooooooooooo expensive for what you get. Specially US ones, and custom ones (I own 5 fender strat from japan to CS) the best one is from japan, for all the people who played them, it was a 100% for the japan one.