Every Automaker's NACS Plan - Everything We Know About Tesla Supercharger Access | Episode 222

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

Please consider subscribing if you enjoyed this video! It helps us to keep covering EV news on the daily. [ CHAPTERS ] 00:09 Welcome 02:44 Rate Your Charge 03:05 CCS Public Network Charging 04:32 Ford & GM / Farr West, UT City Planning Meeting w/ Tesla Rep 07:41 BMW 08:07 Fisker 08:29 Ford 09:04 Genesis 09:31 GM 10:08 Honda 10:22 Hyundai Kia 10:44 Jaguar 11:10 Mercedes 11:32 Nissan 11:52 Polestar 12:17 Rivian 12:43 Subaru 13:35 Toyota Group 14:01 Volvo 14:31 Lucid 14:56 VW

[@TimCristy]

Early announcers all used 12k, later announcers 15k. Tesla has been installing ~3k V3 per year in NA (2022 they added ~3400 from the numbers I was able to find). I think the change in numbers from the early announcers to late reflects that build out rate of V3/V4. It’s not that they get access to chargers the other manufacturers don’t, there will just be more of them for everyone when they join the party.

[@KaceyGreen]

of the early announcers only Ford has come out and later said 15k.

[@comeaujo]

The numbers ~roughly aligned with the number of V3/4 Supercharges in North America (USA + Canada + Mexico) at the time of the announcements. There are almost 18K V3/4 Supercharger stalls in North America now. It appears clear to me V2's are not in the mix but what remains to be seen is whether all the V3 and V4's will be available. I think they will.

[@KaceyGreen]

@@comeaujoagreed

[@TimCristy]

Tesla could theoretically replace the electronics in the V2s to add CCS communications (like they offer for some of their older cars), but when asked have said there focus is on adding new chargers not upgrading old ones. That could obviously change, but I doubt it.

[@KaceyGreen]

@@TimCristyit'd likely be cheaper to swap the stations for V3s and V4s (or the 4 3 hybrids we've been seeing) than design new hardware for old stations, especially as spare parts inventory drops on those units

[@Jodywshelton]

Really like the info on this. Please keep us up to date on all the news on this!

[@georgepelton5645]

IIRC, several of the recent supercharger access announcements have stated 15,000 stalls will be available, instead of the 12,000 stall number used in earlier announcements. My speculation is that Tesla's plans for V3/V4 installs have gone up, and/or the OEMs that don't get access to superchargers until 2025 (vs 2024) will naturally have more Tesla V3/V4 installations complete at that time.

[@klantic2]

Great work. Thanks for your time, effort, and expertise.

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

Thank you for tuning in!

[@loriallen67]

Thanks for this wrap up. Very informative to have all the info in one place.

[@thenetworkarchitectchannel]

I own two EVs that will qualify for SC access next year (Volvo XC40 Recharge & Cadillac LYRIQ). Total game change for road tripping and people who can not charge at home in non-Teslas. It can be argued that Tesla is loosing a brand distinction by allowing other brands to charge on SCs. I do agree, but to me it is testament that EM & Tesla as a company are following their mission to further the electrification of transportation and they can do so by helping non-Teslas by opening their SC in a philanthropic gesture. Although they will get the monies from SC customers, the loss of brand distinction is a much bigger hit. A proud moment for Tesla as a company. Thx for the vid. Very informative. I enjoyed watching.

[@anthonyc8499]

These agreements open Tesla up to a lot of risk. Tesla will need to be careful now with their network management and being completely fair with customer treatment or else they’ll be in danger of being treated like a monopoly.

[@GaryCruz]

Tesla will pull away further once it releases FSD for the masses and other manufacturers will license it.

[@anthonyc8499]

@@GaryCruz lol

[@thenetworkarchitectchannel]

@@GaryCruz I agree. By my estimation that will be about 2055. EM recently indicated the difficulty in auto wiper tech. Other vendors are pretty solid on that, but Tesla is still struggling on identifying when it is raining and to what degree so the wiper speed and off/on settings can be adjusted. If you drive a Tesla, you will know of what I am referring to. Between now and then, I believe Tesla market cap will adjust, Ford MC will purchase them, and they will be cannibalized under the parent brand. It is seen from Ford not embarking on any DCFC builds like Mercedes, GM, Volvo, and VW (although being forced). Ford will acquire the SC network with the purchase, which I estimate to occur sometime in late part of this decade.

[@GaryCruz]

@@thenetworkarchitectchannel I think FSD will be A LOT sooner (granted I'm in the AI field, so I may be more optimistic based on what I've seen). Many people under estimate AI - wipers are lower on the list of priorities to solve. Elon Musk, an early investor of Deepmind, said in 2016 that experts in the field thought AI was 10 years away from achieving a victory against a top professional Go player. The match AlphaGo versus Lee Sedol is comparable to the 1997 chess match when Garry Kasparov lost to IBM computer Deep Blue. Kasparov's loss to Deep Blue is considered the moment a computer became better than humans at chess. In order for Ford to be able to buy Tesla, Tesla's market cap would have to fall under 10 billion and Tesla has a total debt of $5.57 billion, Ford Motors carries a higher debt load of $139.29 billion. Net Income, 10 Yrs Ago... $GM: $6.2 billion $F: $5.6 bil. $TSLA: -$0.4 bil. Net Income Today... $GM: $10 billion $F: -$2 bil. $TSLA: $13 bil.

[@kylerobinson7572]

Thank you for the supercharger update!! Very informative!! :-)

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

You bet! Thanks for watching

[@Avionics_test_pilot]

Rivian told me they would be mailing me the adapter free of charge in February-March

[@johnstouchpad6437]

Ford said with their announcement the adapter would be free for their customers. I think they have been the only to say that publicly.

[@Avionics_test_pilot]

@@johnstouchpad6437 I have a ford lightning as well but ford hasn’t sent me anything about the adapter yet.

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

Very cool! Feel free to let us know when it comes in the mail.

[@sedawk]

@@johnstouchpad6437 As a F-150 Lightning owner I wish that was true - but they have pulled back from this statement that the President made. As it stands right now we will be buying them when they become available. Sad, but I think this is happening.

[@kracusomniax3933]

@@sedawk As a Lightning owner, I'm completely fine paying for it. It is worth it imo. Cool if it was free but I'm not complaining; I just want it. I think it actually isn't good business to give it out free to everyone because not everyone is going to want it. My Lightning is a road trip vehicle, my mach e isn't. If we just had the Mach e and used something else that is gas powered: I would not buy the adapter. Anyone that is just commuting with their EV does not need the adapter. This is the same style of advice when it comes to owning an EV, my main reason for having an EV is because I have a home charging station. Relying entirely on a public/private fast charging network, at present, isn't great. It just doesn't make sense to make an adapter and hand them out and have a bulk of them go unused.

[@fredrose111]

great presentation. I, unfortunately in this circumstance because I love the car, have a Hyundai. I understand 2 different companies make a ccs adapter. Hyundai is being delayed until 2025, so I wonder if I had the adapter would I be able to charge at a supercharger, or is there things that have to be done with Tesla (or Hyundai) before I could charge there. thanks for your help

[@lgrantnelson2863]

My beef with Electrify America is they only have one Chademo while others have Chademo on all, or most of their stations. I had to be towed from an unavailable Chademo at EA to another station at a dealer. Then there's the line several cars deep. I avoid EA whenever I can. I saw one station that looked like it was going to have all three. EV GO has some stations that are simultaneous charge.

[@timmcgrath9788]

Tesla calculates how busy a given supercharger will be when you arrive based on people using it as a navigation destination. Will they need to scrap that functionality when they have all of these other cars that they will have no information about? That would be a shame.

[@PeaceChanel]

Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste.. 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤

[@wallykramer7566]

This is the first time I have heard anyone say "bev" instead of B.E.V. or battery electric vehicle. It was odd to hear at first, but it came together midway through the video.

[@sparkysho-ze7nm]

Great job fluent intelligent well done salute

[@viper5ko]

Like if Francie is a Baddy!

[@brentdiez7012]

If only the V3 and V4 supercharges will work with other vehicles, how will they prevent people from trying to use the V2 chargers and let them know they won't work with their cars?

[@John_C007]

I already have a Tesla to CCS adapter. I currently use the Tesla destination chargers with my non-Tesla car. When can I use my Hyundai Kona electric with the Tesla Supercharger network? Thanks for making such great & informative videos. Keep up the good work! 👍🏻

[@PSPpocketfilms]

As we have yet to see electrify America move to NACS I have yet to see an announcement that says it will also support AC charging. This may seem like going in the wrong direction but there are plenty of vehicles being released with j-1772 that are still AC only even in 2024. As a PHEV driver buying an ACS adapter I would like to feel future proof. One of the big advantages of NACS is AC and DC on the same pin set. Give us both.

[@ScottSullivanTV]

Tip: Add a 0:00 timecode in the description os the timecode appear in the timeline.

[@frankcoffey]

I don't mind other brands of cars using the superchargers if there are enough of them. Tesla needs to really ramp up NACS (J3400) compatible superchargers to more location and more stalls. From what I understand version 2 superchargers will not work with NACS even if the connector fits. They have to be version 3 or 4.

[@dianewallace6064]

Thank you for this content. I've heard for Rivian April 2024 + or - 6 months.

[@BillB33525]

Are you planning to test aftermarket adapters soon? What software app will drivers use? Will CCS cars need to use an OEM adapter or will aftermarket devices work?

[@TJPavey]

Watch State of Charge. Tom is on a lot of out of spec videos and Kyle often points people in his direction for charger reviews and info.

[@ab-tf5fl]

We will need aftermarket adapters to deter auto manufactures from gouging their existing customers.

[@scotthall1381]

I doubt tesla will allow it, EA doesn't allow aftermarket CCS to NACS adapters, I mean its hard to enforce unless they put an hardware authentication chip. EA has had problems with poorly made adapters @@ab-tf5fl

[@ahbushnell1]

you did a good job

[@bhmbill]

Will the GM adapter work with the Bolt or just Ultium platform EVs?

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

We’re buying the Denali EV and Blazer SS EV but not until they come with NACS. No adaptors and no apps. Just plug and charge.

[@davidrounds3245]

Imagine what it is going to be worth to Tesla to have everyone on their network. Like owning all gas stations.

[@spencerjoplin2885]

Buy stock in whatever company makes a NACS extension cord, so V1-V3 Superchargers can reach A-pillar charge ports.

[@MrSkchauhan]

Nicely compiled information. 👍🏻👍🏻Could you please share the spreadsheet of what you shared. Thanks in advance!

[@ericcindycrowder7482]

We have both a 2017 Bolt EV and 2024 BMW iX. If we get an adapter in February 2024 for the Bolt, I wonder what would happen if we tried the adapter with the iX on a Tesla supercharger?

[@anthonyc8499]

With the staggered rollout it seems like Tesla is able to discern between manufacturers. My guess is that no unauthorized car can charge on Superchargers until given permission by Tesla.

[@jeffs6090]

I would think that the actual adapter will be generic and can be used with any brand. (Though, one would assume that each brand will have "their" adapter with their logo on it making you think you can only use that one, all so they can charge more for them.) I imagine the issue, however, will be with the communication software between the brands and the timing of the rollouts for each. GM may be able to communicate with the SC network before BMW is able to.

[@anthonyc8499]

@@jeffs6090 yeah, that’s exactly how I think it’ll go down. Tesla will discriminate between the automakers, regardless of the connection. The adapter is agnostic but the Superchargers will decline to charge anything that isn’t authorized yet.

[@ab-tf5fl]

Given that the CCS communication protocol has no provision for the car telling the charger what brand of vehicle it is, my guess is that the authentication will be entirely app-based, perhaps by requiring the driver to provide their VIN number into the app during the setup process. If so, this would suggest that somebody who owns both a Ford/GM and another brand would be able to use the vin number and adapter associated with their Ford/GM vehicle to charge their other vehicle. However, this would only be useful for people that own multiple electric vehicles spanning multiple non-Tesla brands, which is a very small population of drivers (likely too small for Tesla to care about).

[@usguyver]

I only listen to half the video so far and I don't know if you mentioned Kia but Kia has actually announced that they will have the first car with NACS built in in quarter four with the key EV6 which means they'll be the actual first car to have access to natively to Tesla superchargers

[@SyntheticSpy]

Wow. Kia is on top of things

[@gregsparrow1499]

But it will be slow due to the 400 v architecture until v4 superchargers come online. Reliability will come at a cost.

[@DR-zk2do]

Can existing VAG CCS car owners buy an adapter sooner and use the Tesla app to charge rather than wait until 2025?

[@MarlinMay]

Will there be UL certification for adapters?

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

We have talked to some folks who are leading testing in this area and this is very much a tricky part of the industry. It's very important to only use an adapter when it is created and tested by automakers or charging companies. But we're still waiting on the details for how all of this will unfold!

[@johnpoldo8817]

When will MB offer an adapter to NACS? Until then, only other option is MagicDock, but roll-out is very slow. When planning a road trip, how do we find real time locations with MagicDock?

[@NormalShock]

Because of the plug position, some vehicles, basically every non-Tesla, end up taking two supercharger spots. I understand why the supercharger network is being opened up but only see this as a detriment to Tesla owners for the time it takes for other manufacturers to put the plug in the right place. Why is the Tesla place the right place? Because it allows for a shorter cable from the supercharger.

[@GregHassler]

My question is if I get an aftermarket adapter will it work on any CCS vehicle, or will the superchargers identify the vehicle brand and not allow it to charge before the official date? Also, will Tesla support Plug & Charge?

[@joel89039]

it seems like it will be gated by software. Ford said access to SC through the Blue Oval network so I am guessing that you can only start the charger via a ford vehicle but I guess we will see in a few months. I doubt tesla wants all css cars to start showing up all at once. I controlled rollout makes sense I think. Hopefully the sc reliability can remain high with all these new models and manufactures on the network. All it takes is for one vehicle to do something dumb while its connecting to fry a charger. I know that Hyundai/Kia/Genesis cars still struggle to charge on a Tesla wall charger consistently. I had lots of charging faults trying to charge my ioniq 5 on a tesla wall connector.

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

It is very risky to use any kind of aftermarket adapters that may not be designed or even tested in the ways that they should. Once we know more about who is designing, testing, and distributing the adapters we will cover that thoroughly! Thanks for watching.

[@JohnRoss1]

Plug and charge is not in J3400. That would be a commercial communication protocol to be figured out by the vendors. How the transition goes is opaque untill it happens😂😂

[@ericm4840]

Do you know . . . does "Next Gen" mean next model year? or new/refreshed models?

[@pixelfairy]

So what your saying is anyone wanting to buy a non tesla bev, should wait till at least 2025.

[@robertn2951]

What about Stellantis? Will the FIAT 500e have a NACS adaptor eventually?

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

Hey thanks for tuning in! Stellantis is one of the few who has not announced their NACS plans, as we mention at the end of the video. The hold outs are likely taking their time due to having a lack of EV models in their lineup.

[@bosshat9821]

​@@OutofSpecPodcast Jeep Wrangler I know is one. They've bound to have others! 1 or 2 whole others!

[@robertnyahay7482]

I have a gm, do i buy adapter from gm or tesla?

[@shockerzevworld5911]

What about the motorcycles? Where are the electric motorcycles speaking up about NACS? Energica, Livewire, Lightning?

[@ericm4840]

I believe Nissan has indicated they will not put J3400 (or an adapter) on the (CHAdeMO) Leaf.

[@KaceyGreen]

I've been telling BMW customers to wait until they announce an adapter story or get another car if they need it now or to wait until the native ports roll out if they can wait.

[@LarryRichelli]

I just moved to San Antonio and also just traded my model 3 for a Ford Lightning. I just found out that San Antonio is the least EV friendly of any larger city in the country. I live on the east side of San Antonio and there is only one CCS station within 10 miles and the next closest one is almost 30 miles away. This is crazy and I am sure hoping they hurry up with the tesla adapters soon. They can't come soon enough.

[@UP-To-The-Time]

I've noticed the exact same thing

[@scotthall1381]

Do you have home charging? Unless you are going on a long trip DC Fast chargers would not be needed that much

[@seAnderson-ij8xl]

By 2025, there should be at least 15,000 Tesla superchargers in N America. Tesla ain't stopping at just 12000 for 2024 and 2025.

[@joel89039]

Been enjoying the little news coverage segments by Francie! A little bit more concise would be my only improvement! I also like how you "play dumb" when running the actual podcasts to slow down the guest to explain the simple stuff so everyone is in the loop. Sometimes the guys jump to level 10 talk and make it confusing.

[@Yanquetino]

So much of all this will depend on when Tesla will get its ducks in a row. Given the CEO's woeful inability to fulfill his scheduled promises, I suggest that none of us hold our breath. The fact that, as of today, there are only 44 (!) magic dock sites in operation substantiates that suspicion.

[@Skotty64081]

I don't think Magic Dock will be the path taken moving forward. I think it makes more sense for the superchargers to only have the NACS connector since most all manufacturers are moving to NACS. CCS equipped car owners should probably just use their own manufacturer supplied adapters if available.

[@petehelme7714]

...and authentication & payments are going to work how exactly? did Tesla finally implement Plug & Charge from ISO 15118? or is it some custom Tesla API that the vehicle makers have to implement in their vehicle software? if the latter, that kind of blows because that will be different than any other charging system.

[@jamesrose1191]

Ford and GM need to update the cars computers in order to charge on the NACS. It will be a Hugh surprise if either company can get this done. Will have to wait and see. Don’t believe what GM tells you, they haven’t been honest yet, why would you expect them to honest now.

[@frankcoffey]

This reminds me of the early days of cell phones. It became clear standards were needed and roaming agreements were needed to get consumers to buy phones and start using them. I hope vehicle charging networks do the same thing. We need roaming agreements to enable plug and charge and automatic payment. The wildcard is that 15% of gas buyers pay in cash. What the %#!$ are we going to do about those folks?

[@amosbatto3051]

Most people who pay in cash aren't buying EVs or new cars in general. What annoys me is that the US is rapidly becoming a society where a smartphone with internet access is becoming a necessity to do basic things.

[@frankcoffey]

@@amosbatto3051 What we have to ask ourselves is how much of a gap between the most advanced and least advanced members of our society is realistic.

[@BensEcoAdvntr]

Hey Francie, would like to see you and the OOS team get onto Threads for those of us avoiding that other platform. I think Kyle is on there but don't know about anyone else. Thanks for the updates.

[@flyordieinafire]

$12 Tesla plan brings prices in line with what Tesla's pay for charging.

[@c0dych1ef]

🤩🤩

[@ai4px]

The irony here is that Tesla offered them to participate in NACS back in 2012 when the Model S was released and they stubbornly went their own way with CCS. The truth is that CCS isn't unreliable per se, but rather the implementation of the chargers such as poor quality self diagnostic relays, credit card readers , etc. That isn't likely to change just because they change the plug on the end of a EA or Chargepoint dispenser. But at least then, the market can decide when people stop even trying to charge at these non-tesla stations.

[@charlescourtney4412]

"That isn't likely to change just because they change the plug on the end of a EA or Chargepoint dispenser." That's exactly what I was thinking. Even if they adopt the NACS plug standard, the current CCS charging companies in the U.S. will really need to up their game with respect to reliability to stay competitive with Tesla. I have a Mustang Mach-E that I thankfully can charge about 99% of the time at home. When I do charge at a public CCS station, I find that they almost aways are low powered (50 KW or less) or have been de-rated to 50 KW or less if capable of higher output. Also, in my experience there are almost always one or two nonfunctioning chargers at a CCS site, which typically has only 4 chargers to begin with. Unless these companies change their ways, nobody will consider using anything other than a Tesla supercharger in the future.

[@MarlinMay]

Remember that the transition was enabled by transferring control of nacs (now J3400) to SAE. Having the specs controlled by a single company was sub-optimal.

[@GregHassler]

The only company that waited for the standard before announcing their transition was VW.

[@JohnRoss1]

We don't know the details of the 'deals' between tesla and each manufacturer were. I imagine that 'NACS' technology being codified in a standard was part of that contract .

[@frankcoffey]

Mazda doesn't need chargers. They have no EVs. Hey, how about a list of all car brands that have no EVs at this time and when they plan to have some.

[@victorlindsey7485]

Rivian?

[@OutofSpecPodcast]

Yep, described at 12:17 :)

[@COSolar6419]

Since Hyundai and Kia were not mentioned did you lump them in with Genesis? Just used an Electrify America today for the first time in a couple of months. All of the dispensers were working. No complaints which has actually been pretty typical of my past experiences.

[@trippplefive]

wonder if evs with ccs ports will tank in resale value.

[@RajGiandeep]

Aptera will use NACS from the beginning.

[@frankcoffey]

Tee hee... Francie said "Ford Ass"..

[@js2009-g9f]

I realized that one day Tesla will be sued for monopoly on the charger network😂

[@sparkysho-ze7nm]

Any legacy auto with a short position in Tesla stock should be prohibited from Tesla Chargin stations

[@sparkysho-ze7nm]

Any new companies that stole Tesla technology should not even ask to join

[@extremeboatdockingmedia]

Get ready for the $h!t show to start happening at superchargers. Excited to see sentry cam footage of non Tesla owners not knowing how to charge like the gas station videos of people not knowing which side their gas tank is on. 😂 Also I’ve already seen how the ford pickup has to stretch the charging cord to get it to connect. I’m sure we will start seeing broken and misused station equipment. Hopefully Tesla puts in some sort of education or test they have to pass to enable access.

[@777Outrigger]

I'm wondering who would buy a CCS EV in the US in 2024? You'll have an obsolete charging port and you'll need an adapter to access the Tesla Superchargers. In 5-10 yrs, when you sell your EV, the CCS port will be way obsolete. I would never consider a non-Tesla EV before 2025, when they get the Tesla NACS port.

[@thomasjacques5286]

Every other manufactures plan was to do nothing and wait for Tesla to rescue them.

[@Hotspur37]

You were not wrong about the ford P-ass LOL

[@mikapeltokorpi7671]

But those Tesla Superchargers do not work in winter. Regards: Chigago and Scandinavia. Hopefully competitors fix this. As NACS is now a general patent, they can not overcharge for using that patent; Tesla will have maximum $10 Million/year net profits in the future.

[@777Outrigger]

When will Teslas gain access to the Rivian charging system? At least some of them. Quid Pro Quo, you know.

[@scotthall1381]

The RAN is know where near ready to open up to other vehicles, they said they will in order to get access to fed funding, but that is a ways out in my opinion

[@89five3five]

When will the testing start? Unless the testing has been going on in secret all this time, they may there may be some bugs to work out.

[@johnsadler6534]

If you plan to buy a car in the next 5 years, buy Tesla or you will be using an adapter and have a current limit on how fast you can charge.

[@starpawsy]

Meanwhile, in China, EVERY DAY ABOUT SEVEN EVS CATCH ON FIRE. Every day. Have been for a while now.

[@johnsadler6534]

3 to 5 years people will be behind if they buy anything except Tesla. Do you really want to haul around an adapter for 5 years! Buy Tesla or be behind!

[@ralstm1]

I have to believe that vendors will offer retro-fit kits, to allow older CCS cars to be changed to NACS. Of course, it's not just the adapter. The software and interfaces have to work. I would not buy a car without a NACS port.

[@charleshayden1400]

GREAT NEWS, GREAT Presentation. The O of Spec Crew is the Gold-Standard Whistle for this Big (Electric) Train, not one made by Lionel, either! You guys have been doing quality journalism with High-Quality presenters, so you have powered this New Energy Thing into escape-FUD Velocity. 2024 is already interesting, and EV’s are just outrageous f-u-n. 👍🏿👍🏿🎯🫶🏿