EVERYONE IS WRONG ABOUT DRAGSTER!!! (AND I CAN PROVE IT)

Today I will be exposing a fundamental lie regarding the reimaging of Top Thrill Dragster for a 2024 opening at Cedar Point. Enthusiasts have been wrong for over a year now, and I finally have the proof I need to come forward with this ground breaking information. How we see Dragster will never be the same.
Videos I reference:
KICoasterGuy Xcelerator Video: • What's happening with ...
ElToroRyan Problematic Coaasters (Maverick): • Problematic Roller Coa...
Ghoster Coasters Dragster Theory: • Top Thrill Dragster Re...
Twitter: stationwait
I have some more insane and fun content coming your way, but for now I'm Josh from Station Wait. Have a great day!

[@StationWait]

The top weight of trains for the indrivetec system is 15,000KG, it can handle larger trains too. I did not mention that in the video for pacing reasons but I have seen a few concerns about it so I’m addressing it here

[@vzs01]

Note on the final new "theory" if you want to call it that: I'm almost certain that if your theory is correct, the trains must launch into the spike facing forwards. I don't know the exact ASME guidelines on linear G forces but I believe that sustained -2Gs would be massively uncomfortable and unpopular with riders. This would mean the top hat will be traversed running backwards which would be amazing.

[@Jimmylovessalt]

@@vzs01 the spike theory isnt real tho...

[@samplautz5586]

@@JimmylovessaltI’m sorry what was that? Can you say that again for the class please?

[@Jimmylovessalt]

@@samplautz5586 do you think a spike is coming? Im just asking.

[@Jimmylovessalt]

@@samplautz5586 i commented that comment a month ago, I saw the updates and now I believe the spike is real. Before there were little to no evidence but now there is a lot of evidence.

[@ElToroRyan]

Very interesting video mang! It was delightfully nerdy! 😂 Loved the block zone bit!

[@BigDaddy66292]

A block zone is a section of track that only one train may occupy. I can hear you now hahahahah

[@Davidvariance]

"For those who don't know, a block zone is a section of track best described by ElToroRyan" should be on an official ACE landmark sign.

[@pwolter0]

It's funny, because as a coaster nerd who recently has gotten a chance to visit some parks outside my home Cedar Point I was shockingly blown away by the tire launch of The Incredible Hulk at Universal's Island of Adventure. I thought to myself "how did they launch so fast with tires? 0-40 in 2 seconds is still impressive. Obviously this was pre-LSM era. The answer is 230 electrical motors pulling 8 MW peak power draw! Amazing! They kept having issues with brownouts, so they added some custom generator sets with large fly wheels, which kind of act like a mechanical capacitor... not all that different from what you're seeing here. Same issue, different era, new solutions.

[@hydrolox4928]

Also it's on an incline so it will feel more forceful

[@jricedrums]

Like the other commenter said the incline makes it feel more forceful. I remember seeing on a documentary of the park Universal states the acceleration force on hulk is 1G of force

[@NickyD]

also hulk isnt powered by the county either

[@Trahzy]

@Hydrolox Yep, and still nothing like it i've experienced so far. Only a 40 mph launch, but uphill and straight into an amazing zero g roll, shows you don't need the fastest or tallest for something great, just original ideas.

[@huetobi]

Juvelen at djurs sommerland also uses flywheels to store energy before launching but it's flywheels are the tires of the second launch I assume other Intamin tire propelled multi launch coasters do this too.

[@TayschrennSedai]

They're going to build a second top hat behind launch using lsm on the other side of the first hill, then it will loop through iron dragon and launch users into lake Erie.

[@ts4gv]

sounds awesome. the main park needed more water rides

[@DuecePiece]

*queue Rollercoaster tycoon screams*

[@PhilAndersonOutside]

LOL!

[@PhilAndersonOutside]

@@ts4gv 😂

[@ThirdEyePerspective1111]

​@@DuecePiece Guest 2048 has died in an accident on Top Thrill Dragster

[@mdenholm15]

Love this theory. I have thought about that too but that type of force going backwards may not be very comfortable lol.

[@linasschafer8950]

the sandy rodeo at nickelodeon

[@cbr9nmr]

A 2G reverse launch will probably require a vest, and both chin and forehead restraints for insurance purposes. Then it will need multiple load and unload locations to keep the throughput up.

[@BraDolMag1]

You wouldn't launch backwards. You would launch towards the spike. Then you would roll back and clear the top hat backwards. That would be amazing

[@crazysanor]

​@@BraDolMag1 that would be different

[@austintayloradt]

@@BraDolMag1 Very interesting...would just need the brakes to be soft enough to not cause the same issue as a high G reverse launch

[@c.c.8841]

Would love to see a standing start launch. It's what dragster is/was all about. It's what appealed to coaster fans worldwide.

[@DuecePiece]

Blasting backwards up a 500ft spike seems super intense for a Cedar Fair endeavor but if they want to "shock and awe" the same way they did when Dragster was debuted then that would certainly be how you do it! 👍🔥

[@maxwellschnur2284]

Combining Wicked Twister with Dragster is a great concept.

[@kokobeatz7222]

Break necks with a launch like that.

[@h1jen1x]

​@@maxwellschnur2284 I've always considered wicked twister to be a baby dragster.

[@gojewla]

I love the idea of a super intense launch, but just can’t imagine a backwards launch that fast, and with acceleration that quick without support to the spine. It seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[@SuperFlashDriver]

@@gojewla Well they'll be like "Hey, do you have back problems??? Sorry, can't ride it then."

[@AlteredAutomotive]

I didn't think I was a coaster enthusiast until I realized I watched this whole video front to back without skipping a second, great work!

[@kakkycoasties8670]

one of us!

[@KICoasterGuy]

This is one of the most fascinating coaster videos I've ever seen

[@meteorgemini8796]

Let's go even crazier. They have a vertical launch away from the original tophat, up a 600 ft tophat, through an airtime hill, up the old tophat, then into the breaks where the old launch was

[@dubvuchyea502]

I hate the verticle spike thing. We got rid of wicked twister but now we're getting wicked twister that goes over a top hat

[@JerseyDevils21]

It would be crazy and straight up devious if it was a straight drop like red force

[@djmerchant]

There are some rides at Cedar Point that I used to laugh at until I put my butt in the seat. Wicked Twister was the first one. Holy moly did that ride blow your mind!! Same with Skyhawk. SISSY ride!! Nope! Looking straight down at your possible death makes that ride AWESOME!! I still get nervous on Max Air. I LOVE the ride but the CLUNK sound as it changes directions makes me check my panties. YIKES!!

[@randomdefender1532]

@@djmerchant Wicked Twister was less thrilling than I expected. In fact most enthusiasts say it's a forgettable experience. Sad thing is that I liked Blue Streak more and that's less than half as tall as Wicked Twister.

[@dubvuchyea502]

I enjoyed wicked twister, but i view it and most rides featuring a spike as a gimmick. Cedar Point used to throw shade on rides like that. Also, I have big concerns with capacity. Again, wicked twister was a lot of fun, but it's capacity SUUUUCKED.

[@duzzitmatter8679]

@@randomdefender1532 - I wouldn’t mind the Blue Streak if I didn’t have to pick up my fillings from being rattled out of my head.

[@alexcutionman4569]

I’m happy you remembered about Tower of Terror II being the first coaster over 300ft. Many seem to forget.

[@gojewla]

A strong lsm launch would be incredible. I hope you are correct because a swing launch would be such a downer

[@bigc1280]

What if, it is not a spike, but another top hat you go over, and it is 2 top hats?

[@nomad1517]

It will be something that nobody is probably going to expect. That's what makes a company great, they give their costomers a surprise they never thought they needed.

[@jeremycovelli]

Tony already literally said it's going to be something that no one else has done.

[@craftmaster343]

I guarantee if they do a backwards launch first then we are gonna get over the head restraints and no lap bar anymore

[@StationWait]

I can’t see intiman or zamperla doing OTSRs unless mandated

[@huntzzio]

Theme park predictions actually had a video on why the swing launch could still run 3 trains effectively, with the animation of Escape Designs you featured in the video a lot. Still I like your theory, and if they go for something like this they should have a backward airtime spike (like on that Gerstlauer one thing) that could claim tallest airtime moment in the world, tallest coaster in the world, and it would stimulate the feeling of a rollback

[@StationWait]

If I’m not mistaken, ElToroRyan commented on that video correcting his theory. That’s why I said I’m not an expert and left it to him lol

[@ajmentel2453]

TPP is an idiot and doesnt make sound arguments

[@JerseyKev.]

Love the video. I’m so happy for you. It’s nice to see the community coming together on thoughts of what could be the best coaster in the world

[@imageingredients8110]

I went down the same rabbit hole learning about Indrivetec and Intrasys and their capabilities back when Dragster first closed and people were suggesting it might be an LSM launch conversion. Intrasys did the drive system for Freischutz, and that coaster actually recovers some of its launch energy through regenerative braking and stores it in supercapacitors for the next run. I had heard about this and emailed Maurer to see if it was true and they confirmed it was(although suggested that Intrasys would have more details). I also always remember what I heard B&M say in an interview once. They were asked a question about building a coaster of a certain height and whether or not they would, and the response was essentially "We don't strive to break records; our clients do. If someone comes to us with an idea we figure out how to turn it into reality." So I think if you wanted something beyond what one of these companies is currently able to do they would work with you to come up with a bespoke solution...for the right price of course.

[@noname117spore]

No shot they launch you backwards with that sort of acceleration. When launching forwards you have a seat to give you support; backwards just a restraint, which more heavily limits Gs in that direction (would need to check legal limits again though). If they are launching you once and towards the spike, you’re going through the top hat backwards.

[@JAXXNCREATED]

Imagine the top hat backwards 💀 holy shit

[@StationWait]

I’ve definitely considered turning the train around, but I didn’t mention it because as I said it wasn’t meant to be an end all theory. I do think that would be insane though, a 500 foot rollback

[@BraDolMag1]

Exactly... And it's even better that way

[@alexanderjacob1008]

They’d have to turn the trains around to fit this theory. Not only would it be extremely uncomfortable to accelerate that fast backwards but it probably violates many many safety and health codes.

[@noname117spore]

@@alexanderjacob1008 I think you missed my point. This video was giving the theory of a single intense launch, accelerating towards the spike, which would then come back down, presumably pass over the launch track without activating it, before going over the top hat and back down. Because the single intense launch has to face riders forwards, the point both you and I are making, they would rise up the spike going forwards. They would fall down the spike going backwards, which means they must still be going backwards to climb the top hat. Hope this helps understand what I am saying here.

[@charli.ward.]

I have not been on board with the swing launch/spike theory from day one. Part of that does come down to personal preference, I’m just not a fan of shuttle coasters and intamin impulses because I don’t enjoy backwards or free fall sensations all that much. And the other part of my argument was exactly what you mentioned, the train not actually clearing 500’ on a spike, and that cedar fair would be copping out and going back on their own standards for what constitutes a record break when it’s convenient for them. I also think that it would be bizarre for the spike to be taller than the tophat visually, and it doesn’t make sense for a spike to be the highlight of the experience. I’d rather see an extended layout that doesn’t break a record than something breaking a record on a technicality that shouldn’t even count.

[@austintayloradt]

Makes sense, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see them change the rules and find a new technicality to claim a record - it was 20 years ago that they claimed the 400 ft records, so most people have probably forgotten the "rules" by now. My dream would be a full layout as well, even if it might be less likely

[@TP_Recommendations]

Great video! Very well thought out and enjoyable! Thank you and I am so glad to see you posting more content! I'll see you on Opening Day!

[@StationWait]

Definitely see you opening day! Thank you for the kind words

[@austintayloradt]

I like the idea, although I personally prefer the sensation of a forwards launch - real world example, Mr. Freeze Forward Blast I like better than Mr. Freeze Reverse Blast. I definitely think that would make the most sense for capacity (as opposed to 3 passes over the launch track), but I do wonder if a 2.5 G reverse launch would be super uncomfortable, if not dangerous, especially for the GP - you can get away with much higher Gs going forward, because your back is fully supported by the seat. With a backwards launch at that rate of acceleration, it seems like your body would just fold in half, unless you had something like a vest restraint, and I can't imagine any enthusiast would want that. Maybe this is just a little too crazy, but imagine if the giant footer was not for a spike, but for a massive Immelmann...then you could launch forward, guarantee that everybody reached the highest point, add a highest inversion record, and end up pointing the trains back toward the direction of the top hat! You would just need a 90 degree turn or a turn table switch track or something like that to get the trains lined up properly for the launch...maybe it's too far out there, but it's theoretically possible.

[@superRobertoist]

I completely agree on a backwards intense launch, it would require a very restrictive restraint system and most would not appreciate it.

[@latortugapicante719]

@@superRobertoist what if you faced the train the way of the launch

[@superRobertoist]

@@latortugapicante719 That would work because it just pushes you down into the seat.

[@eddieholt8222]

While I would prefer an extended full circuit layout after the launch, I would love this if you launched forward toward the spike because intense forward acceleration g's are awesome. My main hope for the ride is an intense forward launch.

[@CoasterLoverJackie]

I’ve been ready since I saw the notification for this upcoming video last night at 10:54 PM !!!!!

[@logicn.reasoning9744]

Not sure how they'd safely launch 2.5 g's backwards, without strapping people heads to the headrests.

[@pinkninjaman2734]

Yea this is my though, I wonder what the strongest lateral G-force is for a reverse launch. I can't imagine there are many over 1G. 2G works for forwards as you have a full seat of support but backwards, not sure that would be enjoyable for me.

[@richardlong172]

Great concept! Whatever happens, we can all agree it's going to be awesome!

[@Starlit43]

Nope

[@tchaffman]

If dragster started with a backwards launch...then everyone's heads would smack the seat in front of them. Physics 101

[@StationWait]

Hear me out, rotate the train

[@tchaffman]

@@StationWait a mack extreme spinner that rotates as cars travel in each direction 😂🤭

[@spentron1]

1. 500' really only makes sense if there's no launch at all -- a lift would work (reverse spike cable lift and switch track). Predictions only make sense based on a) They're not building a new coaster and b) The top hat will still be a large chunk of the the thing. 2. Your ideas on how powerful LSMs can be would suggest just a single launch, though maybe extended (actually, the launch track could be shortened with a swing launch, so most of these concepts including what it looks like they're doing call for a bunny hill). However, acceleration tends to slow at higher speeds due to the v-squared term of kinetic energy -- 0-120 at 1.7g average almost surely starts out over 2g. And actually the initial "hit" of mag launches is often very strong. 3. A note on energy storage, the "battery" is air pressure for both air and hydraulic mechanisms. 4. Yes a swing launch would lower theoretical capacity, but not to lower than most coasters, and in return for a much longer ride experience. But the bottom line would be reduced cost of operation per rider, even with fewer riders.

[@OriginalJoe]

Is there any theoretical limit to the strength of a LSM launch? Like if you had 8 stators lined up next to each other, (with whatever necessary gap between them) could they all drive the train at the same time? I kind of went down the rabbit hole of flywheels as a way to store and deliver electricity, which is kind of interesting - there is a lot of development in this area because renewables generate inconsistently - there is a need for a buffer between generation and delivery. Seems like launches are a great application as well but with the opposite goal - draw slowly and deliver quickly.

[@dougcook7507]

BINGO !! I have been thinking the same thing with the initial launch being backwards.

[@BraDolMag1]

No not backwards, you would launch towards the spike and then clear the top hat backwards.

[@MrClutch440T4]

Probably CP will have to add a dynamo like the Hulk coaster at Universal, even thou its a tire launch it would dim the lights in the parks if they didn't have it.

[@rpc8169]

What I'm wondering is where the space for this backwards launch be? Unless they move the station towards the top hat? Interesting video BTW!

[@StationWait]

You’re assuming it’s a launch from the station is seems. I’m my scenario one if 2 things is true. Either it had a transfer table/ switch track or a turn table of some sort

[@huntzzio]

3:11 Awesome video aside this transition is sooooo clean

[@StationWait]

Thank you! I spent a while dialing that one in lol

[@noahd2716]

Well, I originally saw the title and thought “what dumb idea is this guy going to claim”. But after watching and seeing your math and evidence trail you have 100% surprised me and I would say this is the best theory out there so far. Great job!

[@austinjames7849]

Wow, I genuinely didn't realize I wasn't watching ElToroRyan. You're awesome! Subscribed!

[@BrandonEdits4]

Love the videos Josh! Can’t wait for cedar point to open up here soon!

[@StationWait]

I can’t wait! I’ll be there on Thursday

[@comenting3207]

Two thing that will refute your thinking: 1: The platform has been dug up but not the big canopy over the station (redoing the station) 2: For the launch to be backwards it would have to be a really long track to the top hat (could improve capacity yes, but it would make it less exiting and more costly)

[@StationWait]

Backwards from normal way of thinking. Trains could be turned around. And the canopy has literally nothing to do with this

[@comenting3207]

@@StationWait I mean that the canopy means that they'll keep the station

[@dindog22]

Cedar Point needs it's own nuclear power plant

[@austintayloradt]

Or just buy the Davis-Besse station down the coast!

[@aaronhorstman1586]

I'm going to say the new launch is going to be on the old braking side, reversing the way it goes over the top hat. Then LSMs on the original launch area and reaching over 500 feet in height. Cedar Point loves records and were the first to 200, 300 and 400 feet. They aren't messing around with this project and wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for new records. That's right, plural. They may use the figure 8 to get over 500 feet. Whatever the end result, rest assured is going to be spectacular and never seen before this re-imagined experience is unveiled. I know I'll be there with fast pass plus and will probably ride several times that day because it's going to be a game changer and new standard. CP marketing and engineering is unmatched. Ride on fellow enthusiasts!

[@StationWait]

I’ve covered the launch up the other side before, I think the laterals on the rotation up would be too insane

[@austintayloradt]

@@StationWait so in your current theory with a backwards launch up a spike, are you thinking it will be a straight spike (as opposed to twisted)? Or maybe if it's twisted, the element is just more drawn out? In theory the speed coming down the current top hat through the twist is close to the speed going up the top hat after the launch, so maybe the laterals would feel about the same either way, even if it does seem unusual - outside of Wicked Twister, I can't think of another coaster that includes a launched twist on the upward side of a vertical tower

[@AmericanMilitaryNetwork]

Here's the latest Construction Update from today 4/26: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2OzhYRqZph7hJo

[@waynepoint]

Well done Josh!! Best theory yet. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@davep8366]

SPike, spIKE, SpikE ...Everyone (well a lot of people) are convinced of a spike I am crazy...or is it possible there could be a second "Top hat"(at or in excess) of 500'? I would like to see this as (I guess I am old skool) I really like the "Full circuit coaster" concept... and just for fun...Whatif [sic] Cedar Point made a press relase saying "We are sorry to dissapoint you we WILL NOT be making a 500' coaster...then drop the mic with a 600' coaster...

[@eddieholt8222]

I would love a second top hat and an extended layout after an intense forward launch.

[@jamessharp1872]

Most people do know. The new US Navy aircraft carrier launch system is LSM. Those jets get up to 160 mph.

[@StationWait]

I learned that about a year ago, I dont think it’s exactly common knowledge though

[@austintayloradt]

I didn't realize that, must be relatively new...the older carriers used hydraulic launches (and possible compressed air or flywheel before that) - interesting all the cross pollination between coaster technology and other industries!

[@spentron1]

Actually I read they're LIM. But there's a seperate drive car -- no fins on the planes, and also hasn't been as reliable as expected. But those ships have boilers already so switching from steam catapults is an even bigger switch.

[@jamessharp1872]

@@austintayloradt the last generation was actually steam driven. I spent many months on the flight deck. The LSM cat is only on the latest 2 carriers.

[@aarontaylor7750]

Why is no one talking about possibly 2 top hats in a full circuit.

[@austintayloradt]

very true, the triangular footprint of the new foundation looks essentially the same as the structure that supports the current top hat...could be a 500 ft top hat next to Iron Dragon, which also solves the issue of clearing that highest point with the full train - and maybe adds another block zone to help with capacity?

[@ky3sta]

This made me think, what if they reverse the way the trains run? Launch you forward up the spike and backwards up and over the top hat? I just feel like a backwards launch that intense would be uncomfortable, and then probably wouldn’t be able to keep only lap bars. Or maybe there will be some type of dark ride extended layout before the launch to help with capacity?

[@jsmith0121]

Can you link that Indrivetec documentation? There's some ambiguity in there I'd like to research a bit more into. "The aim of the linear drive system is to accelerate and or lift a vehicle (length of 2m ... 15m, weight of 3000kg ... 15000kg) along a track structure up to a defined speed and height (5 m/s ... 70 m/s) with a high acceleration (0.5g ... 2.5g)." I feel like it's possible they could make this claim with the intention that a 2m, 3000kg vehicle could reach speeds of 70 m/s while pulling 2.5g, but not a massive vehicle like what will be on the reimagined dragster. It's like, if the declared max speed was attributable to the maximum size vehicle, wouldn't that actually not be the max speed, as something smaller and lighter should be able to achieve higher speeds?

[@SuperNorstShow]

I wondered if they would launch the train up the tophat in reverse, and then go into the spike, than roll back part way into the tophat, then end from there. Pretty much the layout in reverse.

[@jessicaweirback9588]

I was a firm believer of the swing launch theory. Obviously with no research done other than the lovely world of KZbin. I love your nerd video so much and date you to go nerdier ❤. I'm changing my mind to your theory now!

[@Terrell2119]

All of the theories and speculation is fun. I'm content to wait to see what will ultimately be the truth.

[@linasschafer8950]

Ive been waiting for this videoo lmao it looked so interesting

[@10fantic]

I still think it’s a somewhat forceful launch towards the top hat first, maybe half way up, roll back and reverse launch into the spike keeping it somewhat comfortable but with enough speed to maybe break a new record, then launch bat to the top hat.

[@linasschafer8950]

this is the most coherent theory ive heard so far lol

[@Luikmot]

The thing is, why do you need a 500ft spike with a swinglaunch when your tophat is “just” 420ft? With your theory, a spike this tall does make sense.

[@gunsmoke132]

One thing I noticed you said is that you feel Gs whenever you're moving which is only half true. You only feel Gs when you are accelerating. Think of a car you don't constantly feel like you're being pressed back into your seat when your on cruise control.

[@StationWait]

Yea I know, I’ve taken 2 years of physics (hs and college). It’s just easier to explain this way

[@gunsmoke132]

@@StationWait fair enough. Good video though 👍🏻

[@The_LaughingHyena]

Since they are ripping out the hydraulics they could also move the station closer to the top hat to add a little more acceleration space going backward toward the spike. Heck, I could see a world where the station has a turn table switch track in it. Why not, the best part of lsms is their versatility in placement on the track. Plus it would allow for a wicked station fly by.

[@maxfuerholzer959]

Do you think iron dragon will run this season with construction of TTD?

[@StationWait]

It’s confirmed that it will open in mid May

[@leanen6424]

Thanks for the video, little suggestion for you and other youtuber that focus on nerd videos. If you're making insanely specific videos like this, why bother explaining what gforces are. I know the whole block zone thing from eltororyan became some sort of running gag but i feel like it makes those kind of videos unnecessary long and I'd wish they focus more on the nerdy nerd stuff! Anyway, keep the good stuff coming

[@StationWait]

Because lots of GP want to know what’s happening with dragster and the linear G forces are important to the video topic

[@chrispcall]

Are we sure it's a 500' spike? What about a 100' spike and the train starts going backward up the spike and then once it rolls forward to the LSMs, they give it a forward push to clear the top-hat? Then a switch track is needed at the bottom of the spike to let the train(s) ahead into the launch area. Theoretically, you could run 3 trains with that configuration and unload/load would happen just before the switch.

[@StationWait]

Why would you dig 16 foot footers for a 100 foot spike?

[@HlGHENERGY]

@@StationWait is it possible that it needs to be that deep because they’re basically building it in water?

[@austintayloradt]

@@HlGHENERGY In theory the whole peninsula they're basically building in water I think - even though the Iron Dragon pond is there, doesn't it have more to do with the overall water table? Not totally sure, I'm mostly speculating here

[@notsospoopybob]

Vekoma actually made 2 hydraulic launches, one at toverland and one at flamingo land in the uk (pretty sure velocity at flamingo land is a clone ot booster bike at toverland tho)

[@acidwayne6928]

What if the spike is after the top hat and you go up the spike then come back down backwards into the breaks and then transfer track back to the station, like batman Gotham escape

[@superd4611]

I hope that’s not what they’re going to do. First of all a backwards launch that powerful would be very uncomfortable against the restraints. Additionally, the first stall on the top hat and the weightlessness is the best part of Pantheon. If they eliminate that they’re going to eliminate the best part of the ride.

[@StationWait]

A stall over 500 feet would kick ass, but like I said it’s to prod a new way of thinking

[@zachjones2346]

I like how you mention the vertical launch as many people forgot about its existence. However, I don' think the energy needed would be too far off from a regular LSM launch. The vertical launch doesn't have to be lightning fast, so it could save some juice by only carrying you up at say 55 m.p.h. Going straight up at that speed would still be exhilarating. However, I think ascending a 500' top hat in this manner would allow an easy height record breaker and gravity would do all the work getting you over the original top hat. It would also allow you to be a full circuit so CP can claim such records.

[@peterlockhart3923]

I'm not trying to debunk what you are saying, but having g forces drive a major part of your argument while not recognizing all these different rides have wildly different train weights can lead to wrong conclusions. Every launch is capable of producing some force, not acceleration (or g's). The total G force will take into consideration this applied launch force, train weights, friction, air resistance, etc. Another thing to consider is the g's of existing rides are not constant and there is really no way of telling what the max g's are by the general public. With all that said, the swing launch theory makes the most sense by far

[@StationWait]

The indrivetec can launch 15,000 kg trains at 2.5Gs. That’s on screen but I didn’t mention it directly so I put it in the pinned comment :)

[@shawneggers4484]

Great insight. Only issue with the initial reverse launch up the spike of that magnitude would be the force exerted on the human body. Initial launches of that power would have to go forward and let the seat back stabilize the g forces. I agree though, capacity issues would be horrible!

[@StationWait]

Turning the trains around would fix that if they'd be willing to do that

[@shawneggers4484]

@@StationWait I thought that’s where you were going with it. So backwards over the top hat.

[@StationWait]

It’s definitely something I considered. Backwards over that tophat would be insane

[@shawneggers4484]

One last thought: My personal reimagined, although very unlikely, would be a straight launch to the top hat then use the momentum of the down and a couple LIM’s to propel you over a bunny hill then up into a 500’ upside down ‘U’, before returning into a brake run. Nab the 500’ record along with the highest inversion. Construction pic’s definitely lean towards a spike though :(

[@CedarFairLoreArchive]

The thumbnail and title gave me think this was going to say they weren’t doing a spike. Now I’m terrified.

[@StationWait]

Not that they aren’t, just that it’s not necessary like everyone insisted

[@CedarFairLoreArchive]

@@StationWait I know, but your points about the launch power and backwards launch make it sound more likely

[@slimbeige8692]

If it's going to launch in the opposite direction, I hope the trains are facing that direction and the spike becomes an inverse top hot/inversion. Or if it's going to be a spike, have the cars reverse on the way back down the spike on on the way to the original top hat. Like Time Traveler. Strata-reimagining... Lol

[@elementoftheride]

What about the acceleration backwards? That’s up to 2.5gs into the restraint

[@StationWait]

That’s around what skyrush pushes you into the restraints with ejector, and El Toro

[@elementoftheride]

@@StationWait Alright, I can see it but it’s just a semi far fetched idea

[@superRobertoist]

There would be one problem with your theory about the first launch going backwards @ 130mph, they would have to reconfig the harness's to be much more restrictive and you would fly forward from the massive backwards motion.

[@StationWait]

Rotate trains 180°

[@Jimmylovessalt]

so you think theres gonna be a spike?

[@joeygassmann5595]

Excellent video, you have brought to light a lot of really interesting information.

[@Aerolandaircraft]

A lot of enthusiasts would have a lot of nostalgia with the anticipation and then the epic acceleration moment of a hydraulic launch. I certainly felt sad that I would never get to experience "the greatest launch on the planet". However I do think LSM technology is evolving quickly and if a park really wants to, they can crush records with an LSM launch. Hydraulic and air compressed launches were always bound by limitations. With an LSM, there are none.

[@Jimmylovessalt]

this aged well: Cedar Point confirms a spike.

[@StationWait]

I never said it wasnt a spike. Quite literally I said I think it’s a spike

[@Jimmylovessalt]

@@StationWaitI know I was too dumb to understand the video. I was assuming that you were saying that it won’t happen because in the thumbnail it showed a picture of the spike being crossed out.

[@think.culture]

Doesn't intamin own Indrivetec? I thought i has heard that at one point

[@Onion917]

This sounds so much like an eltororyan video😂

[@Wolfci]

This is my prediction , and it’s the new logo of the ride where 2 trains next to each other going opposite way and doing a swing launch till they both make it over so 2 top hats

[@StationWait]

This was just proven wrong by zamperla Also it wouldn’t work with block zones

[@dr_expresso]

What if that footer is just an extended layout at the end so they can pull fastest coaster in the world too.

[@StationWait]

I was talking about this with some friends recently. While I think it’s possible I’m not convinced yet

[@everything_Burnz]

Additional analogue theory.....(suspenseful symphonic epic music here)..... TURN THE TRAIN(S) AROUND! Then 2 launches in a fro-to progression: i.e. Reverse launch toward the existing TH, then an additional lengthy launch that breaks existing "fastest" records as it goes vertical (or even slightly beyond) up a record breaking second Top Hat that is a (record breaking tallest) inversion like the Mr. Freeze coasters scaled up beyond 500 Feet and have it complete a twisty descent with a speed hill-esque air time moment (probably fastest air time under a coasters un-aided momentum record) and complete the course up the original TH, now experienced with an ascending twist, and coast back down to magnetic brakes where the original hydraulic launch existed, station accessible with switch track for two-train ops .....AAAAAND BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE! Tasty coaster food for thought, makes me want NL2 to visualize it for others. IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND USE PLANET COASTER OR NL2, please make this happen. You need not credit this post for IP; make it happen and the idea is yours/opem source material.....

[@austintayloradt]

That would be awesome! When you say 2 train ops, I assume you just mean a dual loading station, as opposed to only 2 trains in operation?

[@everything_Burnz]

@@austintayloradt You're right, I hadn't given that last part a full think. I am one with aphantasia, so I cannot use my mind's eye when i am awake. I dream, so I know what visualization is, but when I shut my eyes while awake, it is just a dark, blank place devoid of imagery. Thusly, to visualize anything, I have to realize it via sketching or rendering. It's a pain in the ass lol.

[@batshtcrazy5293]

Love all your research, btw. Great vid.

[@christopherswanson1628]

I just thought of something. What if they designed a twin lsm launch system? One on each side of the train to give double the acceleration

[@StationWait]

Why not pump twice the electricity into one row of stators though?

[@christopherswanson1628]

@Station Wait They push them to their max already, so they'll burn them up of you give it too much more power. Put 2 rows, then they will run efficiently and powerfully. The only downside is the cost and the power draw. I forgot which park it was, but they installed an lsm coaster and it was causing brown outs because the city's power grid wasn't able to handle the power draw of the coaster and everyone's air conditioners.

[@StationWait]

They aren’t pushing them to the max though, that’s the point. Being able to deliver power is the only limiting factor

[@shaxility]

I am excited for this

[@SkeledroMan]

Novgorod never hits 2g acceleration. It has a rolling start, like you see on many other gerstlauer LSM launches, for example Lynet and Karacho. The LSMs don't take the train from 0 to 60 but are given something like 10 or 15mph by the predrop to start with. Gerstlauer's LSMs are impressively strong, but they are never as strong as stealth's launch.

[@StationWait]

Every source I can find quotes it at 2Gs. I know it’s a roll, but since I couldn’t find a source on the speed I went with every other source calling it 2 Gs

[@brendashouseofshine4954]

Your theory sounds sounds spot on.

[@ZekkWalker]

The “For those of you that don’t know about block zones….” Easter egg made me spit take my drink! Lul😂

[@StationWait]

Glad you liked it! Ryan is a great friend for approving that joke lol

[@me-myself-i787]

Also, if they gave Dragster a vertical launch up the top hat, it would no longer be considered a rollercoaster. As it is, going up the top hat is the only portion of the ride when the train coasts upwards.

[@austintayloradt]

It just has to be under the force of gravity at some point in the course, coasting after the top hat would count

[@maincoasters]

this is a great video!! explained basically everything we needed to know currently

[@flavortown5124]

Hydraulic launches actually have better acceleration than advertised by parks. With the exception of kingda ka and maybe others, the advertised time doesn't subtract the time it takes to clear the catch car brakes, by which time the train has reached top speed. For dragster, the top speed is (was) reached at ~2.4 seconds, making it a 2.3-G launch.

[@larrytaylor2692]

A swing launch won’t work because it would make the line so long no one would ever get to rid the thing.

[@iRunfastXC]

So, just reverse the train direction, launch towards a new top hat, and the fall would generate enough momentum to clear the old top hat? Or are you saying we’d launch towards a spike, and use the rollback of the spike to clear the old top hat? The latter would still have massive capacity issues.

[@StationWait]

No new tophat. And no, roll back on a spine wouldn’t cause capacity issues

[@rickarps]

The safety of a backwards launch at higher rates than the original dragster seems suspect. Imagine instead of being pushed into your seat during launch, you're getting bent over the harness at 2.5gs

[@StationWait]

Then train around. Problem solved

[@rickarps]

@@StationWait you think they'd run the majority of the ride backwards? Seems highly unlikely.

[@zachheitman6247]

I've been thinking this...no reason for the spike to be taller than the top hat UNLESS they do what you are saying....I had also thought a shorter spike (300'-400') and raising the top hat if they are going for the rollback option and hitting the LSMs 3 times, two forward and one backward.

[@woody71692]

I know one thing. January 9th, 2024 will be the final and total reveal of the new ride. Until then, the ride remains top secret. The spike construction will most likely begin in November when 2023 season ends.

[@StationWait]

I’m betting august is the reveal and construction will start right after on track work, but I understand your point too

[@austintayloradt]

Jan 9, as in the date of the reveal for the original Dragster, and new formula for thrills? I could see that, although I think doing it once (new formula) was enough and checked that box, and we're more likely to see their typical August timing to drive new pass sales...although maybe with any construction during the season on the 400+ ft elephant on the midway will be enough to do that all on its own, without any new marketing. Maybe there's at least few more details in August, with the full reveal in January? The other issue though is that between October and January, I have to assume there will be a lot more construction, and therefore drone footage, and maybe enough that people can pretty much figure everything out (except the name)...and then the announcement in January loses its impact and seems almost pointless.

[@zackbaer1505]

What about Iron Dragon and the footer construction? It's definitely a swing launch, but the question is, how high?

[@StationWait]

Did you watch the whole video?

[@nathanmcmenamin3748]

He just told you how it may NOT or the way it would not NEED a swing launch... lol

[@crazysanor]

​@@nathanmcmenamin3748 no he didn't he just said it was launched towards the spike and then up and over the top hat that's still a half swing launch

[@austintayloradt]

What about another top hat or a giant inversion? Even if the spike seems most likely...

[@waveiscursed]

plot twist: six flags secretly bought out cedar point and they're gonna turn the train backwards

[@cedarcuber]

I like your train of thought.

[@DjKrypticBMG]

What about accounting for the longer trains on dragster tho?? Im not saying I disagree with what you're saying here, just Novgorad does only have the single car and I was kinda nerding out on the math of it all lol. Looking at other similar rides like TMNT Shellraiser it seems to have quite the punch too. Maybe Gerstlauer just has it figured out for the punchy launches. Regardless I do believe LSMs can launch that train over the top hat from a stand still, I think the main problem would be having the power and cooling systems in place for the electronics

[@StationWait]

The top weight of trains for the indrivetec system is 15,000KG, it can handle larger trains too

[@DjKrypticBMG]

@@StationWait Nice! I figured that was the case, Great video btw!

[@bpark10001]

Power source NOT the limit of LSM launch. Power source is ground based, & can be increased to any size needed. There are 2 other limitations that CANNOT be arbitrarily increased by brute force. First is the magnet assemblies that are mounted under the cars. To get more acceleration, you need more force. To get that force, you need larger magnet assemblies. Those magnet assemblies are HEAVY, (weighing hundreds of pounds per magnet assembly) being made up of magnets & "back iron". Both of these have the density of iron, HEAVY. Trouble is, you add more magnets to get higher acceleration, you add more weight which limits acceleration, because the magnet itself must be accelerated! The other way to increase acceleration is to increase coil current. Trouble is, these coils must fit between the magnets, so the amount of copper you can put in is limited. This leads to massive heating. This is dealt with by having massive liquid cooling built into the stator assemblies. There is a limit how much cooling you can fit in. Peak speed is NOT limited. In fact, the faster the coaster goes, the more efficient LSM becomes.

[@CliffordCruiser]

Great job! Well done

[@Justin.Franks]

2.5 G's (or even 2 G's) in a backwards launch would probably be very uncomfortable. Human bodies can't handle G forces in that direction as well as those in forward acceleration.

[@StationWait]

Tuen trains around, problem solved

[@lamewadrides3867]

Technically tire launches can also be rolling...

[@juicegodalpha]

It doesn't need to launch backwards at break neck speed like the people in the comments think. Look at the video of the vertical lsm launch and just picture that speed but backwards up the spike