Evidences of the Book of Mormon: Plates

Joseph Smith claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from a set of golden plates that were given to him by an angel named Moroni. After the translation was completed, however, Joseph reported that he returned the plates to the angel. Because of this they are unavailable for examination today. Is there any evidence that the plates actually existed, or must believers accept Joseph Smith's account strictly on faith? Who were the three and eight Witnesses whose testimonies have appeared in the Book of Mormon since 1830? And did anyone besides the official witnesses see the angel or physically encounter the plates? This video explores the history behind the witnesses to the Book of Mormon and explains why their combined testimony strongly indicates that Joseph Smith did in fact possess plates "with the appearance of gold" which he translated by the gift and power of God.
To learn more about the plates and the witnesses, read the KnoWhy articles here:
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Special thanks to: David Baird who allowed us to film his incredible replicas. www.historicalarts.com
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[@murffmjtube]

Has anybody done spacial studies to estimate the expected density of characters on the plates, their equivalent font size, and what languages would have the capacity to convey 500+ pages of text on plates that meet the specifications described by witnesses?

[@GreggKillpack]

All I know is that one character represents one idea that would cover several words -- like Japanese or Chinese characters (conji)

[@shannongaskin902]

If an angel of God showed them the plates and they believed that those words were divinely inspired and saw with thier own eyes that it was true and real, why would they EVER falter and leave the church...

[@sevensickszero6112]

Shannin gaskin , good point...

[@jeffreysmith7542]

I have known a lot of people who say that they know that the church is true and yet they still decide to be inactive. Believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ is much easier than living it. When you throw persecution and suffering on top of that it makes it even more difficult. For example Peter denied his savior 3 times even though he new he was the Son of God and witnessed many miracles. But, it doesn't change the fact that he still believed in Jesus as the Son of God. On top of that many of the leaders in the synagogues believed in Jesus when they heard his teachings and saw him work miracles but still refused to admit it out loud because they cared more about what the people of the world would think of them than what God would think. John 12:43 God did not call upon men who were perfect to be his witnesses for the BoM but rather men that he knew would not deny. The fact that some of the witnesses left church does not weaken the case for there divine testimonies but actually strengthens it because it weakens the other side of the argument for motive.

[@jeffreysmith7542]

@@paulbrungardt9823 The prophets of the Old testament were polygamist as well. And in the eyes of the people of their day they were criminals too.

[@duanedorman6134]

Free agency. The host just said that all witnesses said that they all maintained their testimonies of the plates and the angels. It is to the skeptics to prove that it did not happen.

[@jeffreysmith7542]

​@@paulbrungardt9823 Do you have any prove from first hand sources that Joseph even made that so called moon prophecy?

[@joselledeleon7377]

I'm so grateful for this video..

[@GSpareBurner]

What’s this background music?

[@kkdoc7864]

If any of those 3 had ever gone back on their initial statements , they had everything to lose! Their integrity, honesty, and reputation would have been destroyed ruining their livelihoods. J Smith had access to making metal plates cause his father had a shed to fashion metal objects. Also for all the hoopla surrounding these “places”, he never even needed them. He never used them in any translation or copy any manuscript whatsoever. And, tell me, if any you had really seen those miraculous set of plates, would you EVER leave that church? No. After the real apostles witnessed events surrounding Jesus’s resurrection, they not only stayed, but they went to their deaths in defense of what they saw. Plates were a fraud.

[@stanleyhall8951]

I wonder where the Book of Mormon came from then? Even if Joseph Smith fabricated the book, there must be a God and who does he help? Is this one of his many lies? Well, I guess he wasn't in Liberty Jail then. He didn't break down the Nauvoo Expositor printing press. He didn't go to Massachusetts looking for money to help with debts. I could probably name others. Oh I guess polygamy is a fraud too.

[@kkdoc7864]

@@stanleyhall8951 I’m not sure what you are saying. Are you defending Smith?

[@stanleyhall8951]

Yes I'm defending Smith. It's all part of his history what I stated.

[@boltrooktwo]

To denounce a persecuted faith throughout the eastern united states would not ruin their livelihoods, what a fabricated narrative. People would have lauded them with praise because many were against them.

[@kkdoc7864]

@@boltrooktwo Are you defending Joseph Smith? You must not be aware of the reasons he personally was being “persecuted” as you call it. He defrauded many folks along the way, first starting with his treasure seeking fiasco, then forming his own army and claiming his kingship, burning down the Nauvoo printing press building and finally establishing an illegal anti bank defrauding dozens out of their savings. That was the group who came after him when he was finally captured having been on the run. While in jail,, he was given a smuggled gun and killed 2 men before the angry mob got the best of him. He was definitely not a martyr, just a common criminal who was so charismatic, folks believed his lies, even poor Emma.. I suggest if you want to know the true history and not what you’ve been told, that you seek out the amazing documents and evidence of a former Mormon Susan Tanner at Utah lighthouse ministries If you really want to know the truth, then you should have no fear investigating. Your eternity actually is at stake because it depends on what you believe about Jesus Christ and the Word of God. That’s the only reason I’m so passionate about sharing what I know.

[@jackkays6779]

Were the plates necessary for the lds faith, since they were not used in translation, the stone and hat was used according to what I studied,

[@patrioticwoody]

One scholar, Don Bradley, has said that when Joseph translated with the Urim and Thummim it was required that the plates be present and uncovered, I believe likely when translating the lost 116 pages this is what occurred.

[@patrioticwoody]

Also, we don't have every piece of the puzzle about what happened during the translation, so it's hard to set in stone what actually happened during that time period.

[@y1338zenith]

Very helpful and informative! Thank you!

[@bobbybower9405]

What do you think of the bible when it says beside Yahweh there is no god

[@ottolovechild506]

Mormons has too many Ms

[@Baltimore813]

Joseph Smith said that the moon was inhabited by people six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be 1,000 years old (Source: Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, a devout Mormon contemporary of Joseph Smith; copy at Utah State Historical Society, Vol. 2, p. 166). Smith said the "gulf stream" resulted from the city of Enoch being taken out from the place where the Gulf of Mexico is. LOL He was a convicted Con Man, people. Mormonism and Scientology are the two religions I believe I could literally swear to you are total and complete BS

[@nute742]

@@bobbybower9405 Yahweh (God of the old testament) was referring to Jesus Christ, our one and only savoir. He also had a father (God), and the Holy Ghost confirms that.

[@zacklockhartmusic1832]

If you were just reading the comments you'd think this video had like 1 like and 10k dislikes 😂. But then again, videos about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints generally attract a ton of very... emphatic protesters.

[@MysteryMan159]

I basically came here to see how ludicrous their proof was so yeah ... checks out.

[@Mockturtlesoup1]

There's a reason so many people don't believe in the book of Mormon, and are interested in how/why people believe it and attempt to defend its veracity/legitimacy.

[@stanleyhall8951]

@@Mockturtlesoup1 You're certainly right about that!

[@d.j.cassidy1642]

@@Mockturtlesoup1 Aside from the concepts of a Modern Prophecy, Secret History, and American Pride it's just like any other religious sect of Christianity especially when you compare their revisionist superstition to that of Catholicism. The Mormon Church is like any other Christian Denomination but it actually receives way more backlash from Critics because of all of the false propaganda that makes them look ridiculous. All you have to do is watch or read actual teachings directly stated by the Mormon Church and you will realize how everyone got Mormons all wrong and how naive and gullible they were to listen to Conspiracy Theories and Negative Gossip. Don't tell me people actually believe their crazy relatives with no doubt like they're Jesus Christ himself.....

[@randyjordan5521]

That's because the whole story is so ludicrous. I'd say that videos about the church of Scientology's doctrines re: the evil galactic warlord Xenu get a lot of negative comments too.

[@timovesterinen3611]

I'm not a Latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forgeing theory. Could Joseph Smith have realistically afforded to that amount of metal?!

[@chubbuck35]

Definitely if he used Tin. Also, Tin checks out on the weight 40-60 pounds. Gold does not, it would be much heavier. Tin plates would have been easy to craft, then keep them covered up so there is an actual physical object that people could see or even touch, even though there was little or nothing actually inscribed on the blank tin plates. The "sealed portion" that people like Emma "felt" I imagine was a solid portion of tin because Joseph didn't want to take the time to make that many more individual tin plates. The reason the plates needed to be gold is because Joseph already had a "gold treasure" yarn he has spun up leading into the year when he "found" the plates. He had been spinning up this yarn about the golden treasure for many years. He realized over time the treasure thing was not going to fly, but a hidden ancient record could work. It was a common fraud practiced back in that time to claim someone found a hidden ancient record that they translated back in that day. Don't ask me why, just cultural I guess because of all the speculation of the history of Native Americans.

[@geraldparker8125]

The Book of Mormon (BoM) has a lot of text, including reoetutuiysbess abd excursions which including on metal would have been quite expensive. I have a problem imagining how such a long, wandering text could be written down (engraved by hand) on so little metal. I have all kinds of other doubts about the BoM, but I'l leave it at that for now. My maternal grandfather and family Mormons go back several generations, close to the history re. Salt Lake City, where my mother and uncle were born. Their father (my grandpa) had 22 wives in all, which made life hellish for my dear mother and my uncle, her brother. i am Lutheran.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

I don’t know you but I have a love for you and your good ancestors. Hope you make it back some day brother.

[@CadillacBunner]

Assuming there were100-200 pages, the plates would have weighed 200 lbs. if they were indeed a gold-steel alloy.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

@@CadillacBunner The witnesses all agree they were between 40-60 pounds. Therefore very little gold in the alloy. I suspect they were copper or copper alloy due to all of the ancient prehistorical copper mines in the northwest. They can be gold in color. But we know they were 40-60 pounds through eyewitnesses.

[@ryan7309]

Whitmer first heard of Joseph Smith and the golden plates in 1828 when he made a business trip to Palmyra, New York, and there talked with his friend Oliver Cowdery, who believed that there "must be some truth to the matter."[9]

[@elipayne5343]

ok.......?

[@utahbac9882]

Oliver was Josephs cousin

[@karlgharst5420]

Later, Whitmer and Cowdery would "out" Smith as an adulterer for the Fanny Algier affair... guess the angel didn't impress them, much?

[@snjezanapodvinski2043]

Thank you for making this video

[@sticksstones8498]

Well done

[@wildbillslunksauce7621]

That’s one of the biggest mysteries of all: William McLellin was excommunicated three times, yet maintained a testimony of the Book of Mormon throughout his life. He hates Joseph Smith, wanted him dead. But he wouldn’t bash the BoM. Human psychology is strange indeed

[@karlgharst5420]

The Mormon Church is a natural draw for religious flakes and fruitcakes... all those unhappy with the contents of the Bible!

[@ChaChaDancin]

Almost like the witnesses didn’t want to be branded as liars and frauds later in life by admitting it was all made up. Not that strange, actually.

[@cxkxr1212]

the fact that someone who first hand witnessed that event and still left the church is all you need to know. imagine if peter, after witnessing the resurrection of jesus, eventually decided christianity wasnt for him… that’d utterly undermine everything.

[@pphelps57]

The issue I have with the "witnesses" is that they were made up almost entirely of family members of both Smith and Whitmer. The lack of credible witnesses outside the familial influence of Smith and Whitmer is quite suspect. Further, and briefly, we have no other historical record of an angelic delivery of writings wherein the writings were "given back" after they were allegedly translated. In other words, it seems to fall well outside the realm of plausible, especially in view of the lack of any evidence whatsoever that they ever existed in the first place. Had an angel asked the finders of the Nag Hammadi or Dead Sea Scrolls to put them back after they had examined them, then perhaps we could lend at least a minimal amount of credence to the story. But again, 13 of the witnesses were related directly to Smith or Whitmer.

[@mykelseverson17]

So what? God works in mysterious ways.

[@chubbuck35]

Not to mention the Harris & Whitmer families had interest in the production of the BOM as (Harris) had invested in funding for the printing of it and they were planning on selling the book for money....

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@chubbuck35 Which would only matter if he actually made any money off the deal, when he did not.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@chubbuck35 But they never received any money from the sale. That would seem to disprove your assertion.

[@johnb8477]

I agree. I didn’t know they were relatives of Joseph Smith. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Joseph Smith indicted for fraud? Why would God choose him as a prophet with so many decent non criminals to choose from? The story is unbelievable on its face. The lds is a cult religion.

[@anonymouscommenter7689]

South park on the mormons is gold. I highly recommend it.

[@acdc-rox4341]

I like how a dude who saw all this go down and still was like “nah imma, leave nuts to this”

[@GodsGreenPlanet]

You say the they had nothing to gain or lose after showing a newspaper article of one defending his testimony. He would lose reputation through notoriety... Which would ruin you, especially amongst religious people... He gained fame. Which is always lucrative...

[@johnroberts6695]

Joseph Smith ended up losing his life, sadly. Very few prophets are received by their countrymen.

[@jaylexter1029]

@@johnroberts6695 JS lost his life as he tried to escape prison by violence. He was no prophet, just a little fraud who finally got what was coming to him.

[@johnroberts6695]

@@jaylexter1029 So Joseph Smith was trying to shoot a peacefully-led mob of concerned citizens who came to the Carthage Jail to voice their concerns about Mormonism? And with no provocation, he commenced to shoot them. Is that what you're saying? And that he was trying to escape justice with a cheap pepperbox pistol that misfired more than it fired? You are, sir, delusional. Do some research before you come here and look foolish. Joseph Smith was a good, decent, honorable man and you have no idea what you're talking about.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

The book of Mormon is a true testament of Jesus Christ. I encourage all to study, ponder and pray for your own witness from God. It was through revelation that Peter knew that Jesus was the son of God and the Christ. It is through the Holy Spirit but you can also know that the book of Mormon is true and that the gospel of Christ with its proper keys and authority has been restored.

[@johnroberts6695]

YES. Getting people to rely on revelation is too often met with ridicule and derision. And this ensures that many people will be populating the Terrestrial Kingdom, when they could have been inhabiting the Celestial Kingdom.

[@emiledlund9559]

can you please responde to telltale athiest`s response video

[@A.--.]

Most of the witnesses were family relatives? What were their characters like, were they honest and is there any evidence of that?

[@joeshawcroft7121]

There is. David Whitmer has countless sources of those who knew him after he left the church who testified of his character as a man of integrity and honesty.

[@mikkifrompreston4396]

joseph smiths family were money diggers. Which was illegal

[@davechristensen8299]

It's a delightful story! 😃

[@bilindalaw-morley161]

Thank you, this was timely and gives me a lot to ponder about. Liked, subbed

[@krishsymphonic6175]

GREAT VIDEO. Thanks for sharing this video.

[@karlgharst5420]

Whatever it takes to keep you paying tithes to the church, simpleton.

[@MasterMahan-qm8hu]

Outstanding!!!

[@pgoughms]

How can you be certain that you can trust your senses at all times? Have you heard of the term folie a deux?

[@masterbulgokov]

Awesome. Thank you for posting this.

[@brianwhitney]

Great work!

[@Isacc..]

Hold on i thought the plates were buired and later found. So why when asked to present them he says he gave them back to he angel ?

[@karynholmberg1008]

Why all the hate? If you don't believe or aren't interested, that's fine. Go live your lives and find some joy. Some of us find our joy in the Book of Mormon; why do you care?

[@virnan]

Because you indoctrinate your innocent children with rubbish, and you try and spread absurd crap like Native Americans (like me) have Middle Eastern roots.

[@sevensickszero6112]

According to David whitmer , joseph looked into a hat to translate the BOM, the plates were never used in translation.....

[@carryk7295]

David whither told different stories and was involved in persecuting the saints. He never denied seeing the plates but other than that he was not consistent with his story.

[@sevensickszero6112]

@@carryk7295 doesn't surprise me....

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

mostly correct, Joseph did a lot of translating with his face in a hat and the plates in another room. However he was still translating from the gold plates by the gift and power of God. And many will say that the plates served the role of being a catalyst for the spiritual experience and allowing him to translate them. Strictly speaking, the plates were unnecessary, the book could have been written through direct inspiration from God with no tangible source material. However, the plates are necessary in the sense that they give concrete historical weight to his claims, even if they're only there to stump anti-mormons who can't explain them away.

[@TysonCapel23]

@@KnuttyEntertainment The gold plates can easily be explained away. They never existed and Joseph Smith completely fabricated the Book of Mormon. There's mounds of evidence to prove this. Joseph Smith was a lying, treasonous, pedophile. He was certainly not the glorious human being the church portrays him to be. He was a liar literally lying to wives about his other wives claiming he didn't have other wives. His 1st wife caught him having sex out in a barn with one of his other wives when Emma didn't even know he had another wife. He stole other men's wives. 11 of his wives were still married to other men when they got married to Joseph. He sent some of those men off on missions and married their wives when they were gone. He was a false prophet there were many prophecies he claimed to make which never came to fulfillment and all it takes is one not to happen for someone to be a false profit. He was charged with treason and being held for trial for treason along with other things when he was killed. That's certainly not a godly man. That's a man pretending to be a man of God when the reality of his action shows hes a follower of satan.

[@joeshawcroft7121]

The claim by Joseph and the church has always been that they were translated by the "gift and power of God" He did use the Urim and Thummim at the beginning before switching to the stone and hat.

[@jwg335]

Can somebody please explain this to me: if God went through all the trouble for 800 years for these ancient prophets to record all these writings, a lot of people dying to preserve these golden plates. Why then did God just have Joseph Smith look at a rock that he found while digging a well, by putting it in a top hat, in order to translate, while the plates themselves sat covered in linen or sometimes not even in the same room? I cannot figure that one out.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Jared Grant why did Christ have to use mud to restore the site of a blind man. I would have preferred that he used a more sophisticated method. When was the last time you produced a work comparable to the book of Mormon with your head buried in a hat? Try to produce even one chapter. Maybe Alma 36 which is written in ancient Hebraic form, inverted parallelisms. This is ancient Hebraic chiasmus which was unknown to the best scholars in Joseph Smith’s time let alone a frontier farm boy with less than two years of formal education. Am I impressed? Very. Then there is the powerful spirit that accompanies the book of Mormon which powerfully testifies of Jesus Christ. I know the Holy Spirit when I feel it. It doesn’t hurt my feelings how it was translated.

[@MrDaddyofseven]

I think the hat method actually proves that he wasn't reading from any other source. Translating or "transmitting" an average of 3-5000 words per day, which is virtually impossible by today's standards, throws all the theories that he copied from something right out the window.

[@theaprilfool1109]

Dado6 yeah it’s not like people can make things up on the spot

[@iconacy]

@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 I doubt jared grant will even try proving your point.

[@iconacy]

@@theaprilfool1109 try it see if you can get even one fallower to your church with your book that you wright from a hat.

[@RedHawk1979]

Amazing

[@rbspider]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.Don't burn bridges.It was good advice then and good advice now.

[@HaroldMadsenMusic]

Great video. Thank you for producing it. I’ve read it many times and know it to be the word of god.

[@maddyboombaddybaddy6532]

What's the issue God has with evidence?

[@coryburns9161]

It's not the Word of God

[@WatchList-xf8ic]

How about how much the "golden plates" would have weighed, given the dimensions provided by Joseph Smith, Jr. (7in x 8in x 4in)? Solid gold weighs 11.06oz per cubic inch, which means that the "golden plates" would have weighed 155lbs. That means that 16yr old Joseph Smith, Jr. dug them up and hoisted them up from out of a hole below ground with no help and no special tools. He then ran about 3mi while carrying these 155lbs golden plates without stopping, save to encounter three separate aggressors, only to fight off each one, single-handedly, suffering no defeat. This is all highly improbable.

[@coryburns9161]

@@WatchList-xf8ic I agree with you 💯

[@lanahere3209]

I’m so glad God haven’t claimed the holy Bible back to heavens...

[@jwhippet8313]

You know where the tablets with the 10 Commandments are?

[@jaylexter1029]

@@jwhippet8313 STUPID analogy. Your entire BS book is based on these plates. THERE IS NO evidence at all outside the BOM that Jesus visited the Americas. When Jesus appeared in the Holy Land there was literally an explosion of written and physical evidence to confirm it. There is no such evidence for the BOM. You are deceived.

[@birdz-qx2cw]

Jay Lexter how could a 14 year old boy conjure up 600 + pages? Tell me.

[@birdz-qx2cw]

Jay Lexter we don’t need proof, our evidence lies in our testimony

[@dekulevi936]

@@jwhippet8313 Ethiopia.

[@stevenkellner]

So the plates of gold or copper but pliable and made the sound of paper when one fans them with a thumb? How big was this book to way almost 60 pounds it would have to be big.

[@beratceylan4668]

We need it in it's original language. ls it also lost?

[@randellosburn5105]

Mary Whitmer's Nephew, who is the one who claimed it was Moroni who visited her, implied that Mary misunderstood her experience. In her original statement, she said that the person, who showed her the plates, introduced himself as "Brother Nephi." The translation was not yet available to the public for her to know that name. Moroni appeared to Joseph and the witnesses in the appearance of the prime of his life, as an angel would. Yet "Brother Nephi" was described by Mary to be an old man of around 70, just as the "Three Nephites" or any other translated person would appear. I would take her word for it as an actual witness Mary Whitmer, over the hearsay of someone like her nephew who changed the details.

[@datawolf2318]

🤣😂🤣🤣😂

[@ChaChaDancin]

Yes, and it isn’t possible that none of the folks perpetrating the fraud could have been talking about it before it was released to the unsuspecting public.

[@Hylandan]

So what you’re saying is that there is no evidence of the plates

[@brettmajeske3525]

Well if eye witness testimony is not evidence a lot of criminals will need to be freed.

[@brettmajeske3525]

So do you reject the validity of all Witnesses or just those you disagree with? What about the Bible, the majority of events can not be confirmed without appeal to witnesses. A majority of convictions in the US legal system are based on testimony. All of those should be thrown out?

[@allisonalexander2269]

@@brettmajeske3525 Then if you dont believe the witnesses in the Bible, why should people believe in the bom?

[@melanieclark7949]

@@allisonalexander2269 What makes you think Brett doesn't believe the witnesses in the Bible? Go back and read it again. Without any preconceived notions.

[@irynaferrary]

Hylandan The most important, that God want us to know the Truth by the Power of Holy Ghost!! Faith is your power to find the Truth!

[@kornelious1]

What happened to the brass plates? Were they with the book of mormon plates when Joseph got them?

[@redfightblue]

That's a good question. I think I heard they were buried in the cave by Mormon before he gave the Gold Plates to Moroni. Brigham Young said he had a vision of the cave where everything is like the Liahona and the Sword of Laban. It's not the same place as the Hill Cumorah.

[@piercecapel2170]

@@redfightblue what we call the hill cumorah today isn't even the hill cumorah.

[@zon3665]

There's a great book by an LDS author that shows that there's perfect harmony between the prophetic statements concerning the garden of Eden being in Missouri and the Old Testament account concerning the garden of Eden. It's called Canaan, Babylon, and Egypt A Comparative Theological Analysis on Creation sold by Eborn Books.

[@wildbillslunksauce7621]

Have you ever been to Jackson County, MO? It’s a real dump.

[@3thingsfishing427]

Except for the fact that Adam's descendants would have needed a global flood to carry them back to the Middle East, a global flood that absolutely, positively never happened. So JS has that going for him...

[@CosmicGumbo555]

What did Martin Harris think of James Strang's holy plates, pray tell? If his testimony is valid for Joseph it's valid for James

[@brettmajeske3525]

His testimony with regard to Strang is not that he saw an angel confirming witness.

[@steveangora7839]

They found very similar description of plates in a Columbian tomb. Egyptian hyroglyphic with hebrew translation (alphabet). Not a LDS member. But just seems that there may be some truth to BOM.

[@HelloDocMode]

I need a source for this please

[@steveangora7839]

@HelloDocMode Gold Plates found by Marcos Montezuma in 2011.

[@samuelsaldana2888]

Have you ever hear about cacique Malchia in Panama? In his tumb was found a object like as Mormon's book. Tell me about that.

[@saladdinkaz6415]

There were some genuine folks that tried to visit the site where it was all found and extract information from the museum about its validity. The museum wouldnt even allow scientists or archaeologists to examine those artifacts. That whole thing seems like a hoax and a tourist trap.

[@johnrowley310]

If there was any historicity to the BOM the mormon church would build an amusement park around it...

[@steveinstpaul2024]

Are we not willing to accept the fact that in the early 19th century many Americans felt that the veil between the spiritual and the material was very thin. It would have been very easy to convince oneself that a dream or hallucination had actually happened physically. Even in our present world, where we accept material evidence and discount spiritual evidence, the temptation remains to confuse the two types of witness. Had there been 100, or even 50 or 25 witnesses whose independent accounts agreed on all essential particulars, the Mormon Church would be in a much better position to advocate for the existence of the golden plates. Since Smith was quoting ideas and information as early as 1824 that later appeared in the BOM, it's especially difficult to accept the story of the plates as anything more than a fanciful illusion in some young men's minds.

[@cfosburg]

This is an excellent compilation of witnesses. 👌

[@karlgharst5420]

A cousin, a father and two brothers of the huckster, four inbred Whitmers and three deluded idiots known for their religious fantasies... should be enough evidence to burn every copy of the BoM ever printed!

[@rhutabaga420]

How do we know that these three witnesses "had nothing to gain" from maintaining the truth of their original accounts? There could easily be some things we simply aren't aware of. Also, imo sticking with the lie would be much easier than having to admit you'd been lying to everyone the entire time, don't y'all agree?

[@azraeldelion]

Yeah, money, power, and plenty of women is motivation enough.

[@blaze2001]

@@azraeldelion Yeah he lost me when he said "They had nothing to gain", that's a matter of perspective. Sometimes you have to hold to the lie because are ashamed of the truth and worry about the consequences. But I will say in defense of Mormonism the story of the golden plates has changed over the years. Some say it was a spiritual set of plates not a physical one.

[@juliajohnson9491]

Many of the witnesses were excommunicated, had ruined reputations, or both. Many of their families and their own lives were also in danger. They lost all power in the church and their personal lives, yet none ever retracted their testimonies (any record indicating they may have were second hand accounts written decades after they died by people who likely had little if no relation to the witnesses).

[@rhutabaga420]

@@juliajohnson9491 All the more reason to stick to their story. Admitting any lie would make things that much worse for them, don't you think?

[@juliajohnson9491]

@@rhutabaga420 Possibly, but you forget that their lives were in great danger. That danger could have stopped had they stated the BoM was fabricated. Additionally, many felt that Joseph Smith had ruined their lives, so it would be probable that they would want to get back at him for ruining their lives. This would have been easiest to do by stating the plates weren’t real. Also, one witness had a falling out with Joseph Smith and left the church, but later rejoined after Smith died. That doesn’t sound like something someone would do if their account was fake. I’m not saying there’s no way you’re right, but it seems that the witnesses likely had very little, if anything, to gain from maintaining their testimonies.

[@murffmjtube]

strong points 💪

[@levi5459]

When it comes to god nothing is convenient because working by faith and growing it is not a convenient process. Stretching your patience to its limit so you can have and acquire the gift of greater patience is not convenient. Waiting and watching to see that which the world says has never been seen nor can be seen nor ever will be seen and then as you begin to see you get to be told by the same that you didn’t see anything. Not a path of convenience

[@ilovemybrats2]

Could the plates been made of brass? It can look golden...

[@BradleyDavid912]

Yes

[@allisonalexander2269]

Their is a metal called tambuga

[@prestonerful]

Joseph said they had the appearance of gold. They were actually made with a gold and brass or bronze mixture. It's what kept them from corroding.if they were made of brass only they would have corroded long ago I think

[@punishedgloyperstormtroope8098]

It wouldn’t have the density tho I doubt the gold plates existed but if they did it was fake. People had an interest to lie about it. Mormonism is heretical

[@raindacer]

So, there are no further evidence other than internal witnesses. Expected too much from the video...

[@raindacer]

@Dominus Illuminatio Mea kindly refrain from that tone. It would turn off any potential converts as we are the reflection of our beliefs.

[@bladeeagle01]

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)

[@Elaphe472]

I can't understand why all those stories, all that complexity and sea of events so at the end believe in some god. I personally take a quiet walk under he stars, or by the ocean, or just seating in my room listening to my heart beat. That's all I need.

[@uranophobiac2573]

Joseph Smith was too poor to afford lead, so it must have been gold Inside the box. Makes perfect sense.

[@ethanpetersen810]

That's not what the video was saying at all.

[@birdz-qx2cw]

Where’s your proof

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Martin Harris’ point was that Joseph didn’t have the money or resources to produce a forgery.

[@chasebutler336]

He never ended up saying they were gold, in fact he mentions that if they were too light to be gold

[@allisonalexander2269]

@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 In Grandins publishing their was a lending library.

[@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist]

Is it true that Joseph Smith's father made those thin metal bands used to hold wooden barrels together? The ability to make thin metal barrel bands isn't too far from being able to create thin metal rectangular pages bound by three rings. My thought is that as long as you keep the created plates in a cloth sack or covered by some sort of cloth you could let people handle them thru the cloth. The fact that some said they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes" tells me that there was a reason they couldn't just look at them freely, handle them freely, inspect them carefully. And if they were actually silver in color like the metal found encircling wooden barrels, it would seem to me that if you waited till night time and allowed some to see the plates uncovered, the low color temperature of a torch or light from flame could cast an orange color.

[@lootingiv4058]

If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with Joseph and left the Church? How could Joseph have known about ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in Mesoamerica? How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic ancient Semitic names? Where did Joseph Smith get the idea of ancient scriptures written on metal plates? How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts? Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormon's idea that the ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron? If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to prophets? If Joseph Smith just made up the idea of vicarious baptism for the dead, why do numerous ancient documents validate the LDS claim that this was an authentic early Christian practice? At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed, how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own? What other church better corresponds with early Christianity in terms of teaching the true relationship between faith, grace, and works? Why do the earliest Christian writings sound much closer to LDS theology than they to modern "mainstream" Christianity? If it's unchristian, unbiblical, and evil to believe that humans have divine potential, why do many Biblical and early Christian sources speak of the humans becoming "gods"? If the Bible is infallible, by whose authority were the various books of the Bible selected in an infallible manner? By whose authority were the infallible translations made and approved? Who authorized the changes in the ritual of baptism that occurred since the New Testament Church? And who in your church has true authority from God to perform baptisms? If the Book of Abraham is a fraud, then how do you account for the details in the text that would later be given extensive support by numerous ancient documents that were not available to Joseph Smith?

[@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist]

@@lootingiv4058 Regarding your first point, I suspect witnesses only saw plates with their “spiritual eyes” in a vision. Martin Harris even said so. And for some reason, the witnesses had to be taken out into the woods to see the plates. Translation had already begun so I didn’t. Smith just show them the plates right then and there. I sense great deception there of Penn &Teller quality. And they probably all felt there was something mystical about Joseph Smith. And maybe had fear of what spirits and demons could visit them if they were to go against Smith. So wouldn’t go against the document that they signed saying they saw plates. A document that Joseph Smith wrote up and they just applied their signature to. How many agreements on the Internet have we all said we’d ead as we click “I’ve read this agreement” button. I’m going to try my best to give a response to each of your very general points. I believe there’s a reason for keeping them general because as you get into the details with each one you can see them unravel.

[@lootingiv4058]

@@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist ok but the thing is that 2 of the witnesses happened at the same time but the other one was seperate so he would have had to create the illusion twice which isnt very possible. im not going to debate with you anymore for this reason: evidence of anti-mormon always comes up. but then in later years those things get solved and answered and then anti mormons just come up with more reasons on why its false. no matter how much evidence there is towards it people are going to fail to believe it. an angel could come down and tell you its true but you would put it off as an illusion or a dream and it didnt actually happen. its up the the person the believe of its truthfullness no matter how much evidence there is for or against it. no matter what happens you are hard in your heart so you will not appreciate it. the bible supports the book of mormon and the book of mormon supports the bible period. you can go on about anything you want but i will not even read or respond to anything else you say because you simply dont want to believe its true so you wont. you cant believe in something that you dont want to so have a nice day and i hope the spirit will find a way into your heart. Ephesians 4:18: having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness in their heart Have a nice day

[@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist]

@@lootingiv4058 Galatians 1:8. All that really needs be said on this issue.

[@lootingiv4058]

@@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist bruh 🤣 who was being spoken to in that verse??? The GALATIANS. They had been converted from paganism and jewism. He was telling them not to return to that even if an "angel" told them too. for sure got nothing to prove against the Book of Mormon since literally every "come back" you have had i have demolished and you still never answered my questions lol. im blocking you now because i know i said i wouldnt respond but its just too dang funny watching people try to discredit the church and then not think about it logically. have a nice day

[@randyjordan5521]

Food for thought: "Mr. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was called upon by Smith and requested to make a strong chest in which to keep the golden book under lock and key, in order to prevent the awful calamity that would follow against the person other than himself who should behold it with his natural eyes. He could not pay a shilling for the work, and therefore proposed to make Mr. Chase a sharer in the profits ultimately anticipated in some manner not definitely stated; but the proposition was rejected -- the work was refused on the terms offered. It was understood, however, that the custodian of the precious treasure afterward in some way procured a chest for his purpose, which, with its sacred deposit, was kept in a dark garret of his father's house, where the translations were subsequently made, as will be explained. An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags, and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the "golden book," offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, "Egad! I'll see the critter, live or die!" And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith's fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and "treating" with the customary whisky hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature." ---Pomeroy Tucker, "Mormonism: Its Origin, Rise, and Progress"

[@herbertorendorff6323]

Upon checking through my family tree we do have Smith's in my tree but anything is possible Joseph could be family I've never really asked and I don't know for sure because most of our family trees are incomplete so I really don't know what to say and would not know who to ask is most of the people I would ask some of them passed away so I guess you could say I'm kind of in the dark on this one which means I have no clue but anything is possible I'm just not sure if there's a connection between me and him there could be but I don't really know for sure but I will saythe Mormons did have a rough life by what I have heard and it must have been really really hard on them I may not have been born back then I was not born until 1977 years after start of the Mormon church many years afterit wasn't until I met some members that I had never heard of the church but I have met many nice people who go there and are part of it I joined the church a number of years ago I have not been active there in a while I have been currently dealing with parts of my life that have been less than stellar but I'm doing my best to make sure I improve my life by the day and try to keep improving it month by month I am currently not active in the church but I wish everybody in the church well I guess you could say I am dealing with a lot more then I'm ready to deal with in life and if anybody asks I departed on my own terms it has nothing to do with the church only a falling out with a member who was in high standing and a leader of the branch I was in I will leave it at that I have moved on from that and chose to carry on with my life and try to do as much as I can but it's pleasing to God even though I am not perfect and still have many flaws I mean hey who doesn't nowadays I'm not perfect but I'm trying really hard

[@tonywebster8582]

@borrowed tomb Are you related to Jesus too?

[@huffdaddy3845]

What difference does it make whether the plates existed or not? He used a rock in a hat, and often the plates were in a different room or hidden in the woods.

[@JesusIsWayTruthandLife]

LOL

[@havegottogitgud1864]

"So what’s the purpose of the plates? ... Well, they’re an absolutely indigestible lump in the throat of people like you. That’s what they’re there for. Because you can’t explain them away. And they should give you pause. You ought to think about this and what it implies. Whatever else you may think about Mormon theology ... there were plates. Where did they come from?" Daniel C. Peterson.

[@DrLegitimate]

All these links of 'proof' link to a Mormon website. If that's not an open bias, then I don't know what is.

[@iconacy]

lol all anti Mormon theories are from born again web sites or people in science that have agendas. but nice try

[@DrLegitimate]

@@iconacy Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present to you the one of the most common complexes associated with cults: 'Any one who disagrees with us is lying or has an agenda'. In fact, a persecution complex is so powerful it's something that drives cult members to participate in activities they know will be demonized, just to say that they've been persecuted for their faith.

[@robertrosskopf4641]

History is written by witnesses, and the history behind this religious revolution is solid. People attempt to write other histories to explain the known facts, but they can not be explained by any other means. Naysayers are forced to quote rumor and sling mud.

[@47rlc]

Awesome video thank you . I share your videos at church during scripture study on Wed nights

[@blueheron4498]

Maintaining their testimonies was actually the more self-interested move. It is certainly better for PR to commit to your testimony of an absurdity than to admit that you were at one point lying and perpetuating a scam. You see the same thing with many crypto projects today. Teams are forced to pretend that they believed in their projects to avoid prosecution when the whole point was just to scam people.

[@nute742]

Back then, however the law wasn't as strong as it is today (e.g.- hate crimes, protection etc). So for many of these witnesses (especially the ones that left the church initially) You'd think that "self preservation" of self + family would be the most important. (Due to corrupt judges, mobs, persecutors of the saints, etc). So recanting (especially if it weren't true) would be much easier. However knowing what they knew (and the fact that all witnesses) held true - should give one pause for thought. Perhaps - their own testimonies, and moral consciences and fear of God (for the truth) was more important to them than what others outside the faith thought. Anyway food for thought :)

[@Baltimore813]

@@nute742 The law was apparently strong enough for Joseph Smith to be convicted of being a Con Man

[@Baltimore813]

@@nute742 Joseph Smith said that the moon was inhabited by people six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be 1,000 years old (Source: Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, a devout Mormon contemporary of Joseph Smith; copy at Utah State Historical Society, Vol. 2, p. 166). Smith said the "gulf stream" resulted from the city of Enoch being taken out from the place where the Gulf of Mexico is. LOLOLOLOL

[@nute742]

​@@Baltimore813 Hey, who knows? (truth is stranger than fiction, lol). Moses parted the red sea and adam lived over 900 years and the city of enoch was taken up into heaven (?) So there is definitely a lot we know (but even more than we still don't know). Interesting things to ponder

[@nute742]

@@Baltimore813 The law also convicted Christ too! (Laws of men are not always just). Many good people over 1000s of years have been put into prison, enslaved or abused. (hopefully we can all do better in the future). This will be so when Jesus returns (very shortly)

[@geoffnoyes520]

The author, Joseph Smith said his Book of Mormon was the "most correct book on earth", some of his family and friends were convinced as well, and signed up as witness for him. He also said he'd done more than Jesus Christ and his Apostles ever did, ( History of the church, Vol 6 pgs. 408-409), He was arrested and died in a shootout, gun in hand at Carthage jail, killing a man or two. Thanks, but I'll stick with the Bible and follow Christ and his teachings. Kind regards to all, especially Mormon folk. He truly sounds like the sort of man you can trust with your life and eternal future.! :-)

[@42N8_1]

The scripture says, "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." Doctrine and Covenants 153:3. Also Joseph Smith only fired his weapon but never hit anyone at carthage jail. You conveniently and deceptively left out and twisted key words and truths in order to push your false agenda. Here are two scriptures Malachi 4:1 and 2 Nephi 29.

[@yohanlisting9387]

That is why we left mormon church. After 35year of being member, finally we opend our eyes and read only holy bible. As the bible said dont add or less any teachings in th holy bible

[@randyjordan5521]

@@42N8_1 " Joseph Smith only fired his weapon but never hit anyone at carthage jail.' So, he wasn't a "martyr" then, was he. Martyrs willingly go to their deaths and do not fight back

[@joeshawcroft7121]

@@yohanlisting9387 You realize it says that in Deuteronomy too? Just saying.

[@joeshawcroft7121]

Joseph isn't the Author. Ancient prophets of the house of Israel who followed God's teachings were. Joseph Smith translated it. If you believe he wrote it then you must believe he is one of the greatest, most gifted authors of all time. 65 working days, no drafts, dictated to scribes without rewrites and picking up where he left off without having anything read back to him, with some of the most profound doctrines and sermons of religion? Most impressive.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Let's see the plates

[@adammore2653]

When are we starting the archeological excavation of Zarehemla? I'm so looking forward to it! Oh......

[@krissander1]

Whe hell freezes over is the correct phrase here😁

[@katiep349]

AWESOME VIDEO!!!!

[@pasainchina97]

Why be it orsome??

[@theclockmaker3642]

It doesn't really matter if Joseph had golden plates or not. Show me any manuscript, anywhere in the world, written in "Reformed Egyptian" to prove that this language actually existed. At least that 'mistranslated' Bible can still be translated today, because there are actual ancient manuscripts written in Hebrew and Greek.

[@zandersturgill]

Hebrews writing in a form of hieratic Egyptian has long been proven my friend. knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/did-ancient-israelites-write-egyptian

[@theclockmaker3642]

Zander Sturgill It's funny that the Hebrews, who had their own language and considered the Egyptians their enemies, would take on reformed Egyptian to start documenting their religious texts.

[@zandersturgill]

I guess so. The point is they did it, as archaeology demonstrates.

[@theclockmaker3642]

Hieratic 'might' be "Reformed Egyptian", but you don't know. Did Joseph copy any of the characters from the plates so that we can verify if it is Hieratic script?

[@zandersturgill]

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says he was writing in Egyptian in 600BC. Archaeologists have found hundreds of artifacts in Israel, dating to around 600BC, demonstrating that ancient Hebrews did write in a type of Egyptian, and were even trained. That's what the article I sent you is saying. That language/writing was passed down 1,000 years from Nephi to Moroni. Moroni says they "altered" it according to their own language. If Joseph copied it, then he copied the altered version. Languages and writings change after 1,000 years. That is demonstrably true. The reformed Egyptian mentioned in the Book of Mormon is very plausible. Does this prove the Book of Mormon is true? No, it just proves that that little detail is plausible.

[@scotthammond6595]

I would think Moroni would know what the plates were made of. He said they were made of pure gold. Mosiah 8:9:” and for a testimony, that the things that they had said are true, they have brought 24 plates, which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.”

[@krissander1]

So when did the Mormon Church stop talking about gold plates and starting about Tumbago plates? Was it around about when people started saying gold plates weren't credible? Or are there still Mormons going around saying that Joe Smith was a buff farm boy and would have no trouble moving the plates?

[@margarethoxha]

A Marvelous Work and a Wonder

[@darrylruiz2573]

You willing to stake your Eternal Soul on that Bro?

[@rightbart7604]

What I always found interesting was Joseph Smith learned he needed 3 witnesses for the gold plates while translating the gold plates with Oliver Cowdery. The requirement for 3 witnesses was written on the gold plates. Logically you would assume Joseph Smith would gather up 2 more people to join Oliver Cowdery. They would all go to Joseph Smith's house and he would lift the cloth that was covering the actual plates. That's what real witnesses would do. But no. He takes them all into the woods to see a vision of the gold plates? And the story of what happened in the woods is basically The Emperors New Clothes, only without the kid. So Martin Harris held a box that supposedly contained the plates and he said it felt like eaither lead or gold was in the box? Why not bricks? Joseph could have put anything heavy in that box. Contrast the plates with the egyptian papyri. Joseph Smith proudly displayed the papyri to anyone who wanted to see it, for a fee of course. The obvious difference is he actually had authentic, egyptian papyri.

[@redfightblue]

The Bible says 2 or 3 witnesses. Martin Harris was the mark that need convincing so he would pay for the publication. Oliver and Martin would be 2 witnesses but not if Martin backs out or was not fooled. Whitmer was brought in so even if Harris backed out, there would still be 2 witnesses. Martin Harris did actually back out that day and did not see the plates with the other two witnesses. Joseph had to go find him and convince him he saw the vision as well.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@redfightblue The whole story about having to go out into the woods and pray and have the angel show them the plates is silly on its face. If Joseph had the plates in his house, why didn't he just show them to the guys there? Furthermore, why didn't he show them to scholars, to prove that they were ancient? The whole story is obviously the same kind of deception Joseph used in his treasure-digging days.

[@joseph732]

The witness of an angel and the plates is more profound than the plates alone as seen by the eight witnesses. Whitmer's various recounting of the event is particularly astounding.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@joseph732 Now, if there was only some actual physical evidence to support the Book of Mormon story, Whitmer's account might be believable.

[@joseph732]

@@randyjordan5521 The Book of Mormon itself is pretty profound evidence that supernatural forces were at play. Hard to believe that such a complex book accepted by millions could have been fabricated by a virtual illiterate 23 year old.

[@ricoproia328]

Correct

[@tingub3898]

Also they didn't have footnotes, indexes, testimonies, maps, names and reference guides.

[@kymopar]

also.. what purpose did it serve to keep them covered,when letting people heft them?..if the 3 wittinesses physically saw them..theres NO REASON other people couldnt see them..especally his WIFE!

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

kymopar and what if God allowed them to be seen by a witness who had poor integrity and then afterwards denied these things to the world?

[@lindamaemullins5151]

Majestic Liberator of the Oppressed 😂😂😂😂😂🤪🤪🤪🤪

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

JOE CANAD on the contrary sir. They were examined by 8 witnesses who would give their names to the world that the plates did indeed exist. Theirs would be considered a natural witness. The witness of the three in contrast could be considered a supernatural witness as the plates and other artifacts were shown to the men by an angel standing above them in the air with the voice of God declaring the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ, from the heavens. One cannot claim simple plate fabrication and deception due to the testimony of the three. One also cannot claim some hypnotic trance or other unlikely deception of the three due to the natural testimony of the eight. Of the 11 witnesses (and with Joseph Smith 12), none of these ever denied their testimonies. Some gave their lives for their testimonies, some left the church and returned later, and some left the church embittered, thinking Joseph to be a fallen prophet never to return. The fact that all of the witnesses vehemently declared their testimonies throughout their lives is truly a remarkable fact. If God wished to prove scripture to the world, he could easily do so. One of the reasons I suspect he doesn’t is to allow us to Develop faith; Faith being a virtue we need to develop on earth. Having a perfect knowledge of all things also would condemn us the harsher when we choose to sin. I suspect that is one of the reasons the Savior taught in parables. Those who have eyes to see will see. The truth has a way of coming out and I can’t envision a way that these 12 had the motivation to maintain such a deception. Many of these men had deathbeds and could talk of almost nothing else besides the truthfulness of their witness. This includes men such as David Whitmer who never did return to the church but always bore strong witness throughout his very long life. The more you spend time with the witnesses, the more unbelievable an alternative explanation becomes. These men truly believed what they claimed. I would need greater faith to disbelieve rather than to believe with what I now know after a lifetime of study and prayer. Good luck on your journey friend. Kindly and respectfully submitted.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Linda Mae Mullins I’m happy I can bring out a smile friend. Kindest regards.

[@astaut2659]

@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 why did he not show it all of them then I mean, he was keeping them covered with a cloth and not in great security

[@jameshasapoint7628]

This is superbly prepared. Thank you! I was looking for just such a video for Family Home Evening. Thank you!

[@krissander1]

What is superb about it? There is no actual evidence presented here.

[@jameshasapoint7628]

@@krissander1, evidence to you is anything you choose to believe. God Himself confirms the Truth of The Book of Mormon. So what evidence would any reasoning, logical, intelligent, intellectual and scientific person need?

[@krissander1]

@@jameshasapoint7628 well perhaps evidence the Joseph Smith could actually translate anything as he allegedly translated the gold plates.

[@krissander1]

@@jameshasapoint7628 a considerable amount as there is plenty of evidence to suggest that JS couldn't translate anything.

[@jameshasapoint7628]

@@krissander1, of which you offer zero because Jeremy Runnels and John Dehlin offer only bad linguistic rubbish.

[@jasonmcdaniel4571]

Hey Maroni does the big G. Not want us to decrypt the voyanich manuscript or something...? I was under the impression those golden tablets of destiny are the way to decrypt the Voyanich codex...? Aye Anias...? Not hidden in ogden...? 🦄 🙈🙉🙊

[@piercecapel2170]

I had a stroke trying to understand this

[@thaoxiong68]

It don't matter if it's the mormon or the bible. God give many thing so that we can get closer to God but people miss use it and then blame it on him and each other.

[@joepipisitoface3380]

Thank you for sharing that information. I really don’t understand why so many angry people attempt to fit God into their own pigeonholes. must be a miserable existence, having no truth of their own, and wasting so much time trying to destroy the truth others hold onto.

[@d.j.cassidy1642]

Thank you for your kind words. Mormons are as Christian as any other Christian. I'm Catholic but was raised in a Protestant family.

[@slytlygufy]

Lies remain lies, no matter how strongly one believes in them.

[@slytlygufy]

Compare the teaching that God was a man, that Christ is an angel, that humans can become gods with your catechism.

[@johnrowley310]

@@d.j.cassidy1642 Mormons are not Christian. They are pagan. They have multiple gods and you can become a god yourself. That belief alone will cause you to be cast in the lake of fire...

[@boogersnut]

What's strange to me is that of all three witnesses saw an angel give Smith the golden plates, and the power to read it, to create a religion....left their religion. Why leave something that was clearly born out of the supernatural? That's weird

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Steven Young Martin Harris, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdrey all left the church Due to a falling out with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Each one vehemently defended the literal reality of their testimonies. Later, Oliver Cowdrey and Martin Harris did return to the church and were rebaptized. Although David Whitmer continued to feel that the main body of the church were in error, He defended his testimony emphatically throughout his long life. None of the three ever denied their testimonies. Each of them had deathbed experiences where they all told of the literal reality of the vision they saw and heard. Is this proof? No, only a reason to read the book of Mormon, ask God for your own witness of its truthfulness. Good luck friend

[@boogersnut]

I love the typical passive-aggressiveness that comes along with Mormon apologetics. It's the usual F-U with a smile.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Steven Young No passive aggressiveness at all on my part. Just sharing some cool historical facts and extending a hand in friendship. Thanks for Sharing your thoughts Steve.

[@cursedspinach3731]

@@boogersnut You're stupid.

[@iconacy]

@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 what I find strange is the fact that while they left a church after seeing an angel, they would not deny the fact they saw said angel and the plates. people can leave a religion for many reasons however God told these men if they held true to their testimonies that they would be justified by the lord, they didn't need to be active members to be saved they needed to keep and hold true to their testimony which they did. why did they should be your next question.

[@montgomeryfarrar5610]

So Let's get the Plates and do a fresh translation of the Book of Mormon .. As I am sure that as you are that the BoM has been Corrupted by updated versions by 4,000 changes

[@robmark2888]

Why was this not explained in sunday school? or in the missionary lessons?

[@rconger24]

The objective is different. If one wants scholarship, there are Universities. If one wants spiritual peace or fulfillment there is missionaries and Sunday School but you still need to search and pray on your own. (Ask God in faith)

[@brettmajeske3525]

I am not sure what you mean. When I was a missionary we talked about the witnesses.

[@kymopar]

..if they saw the plates,and this testiomy is soo important..then explain why the plates WERE NOT EVEN USED IN WRITING THE BOM!!

[@zandersturgill]

kymopar Book of Mormon Central answered that question here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpO7nIRsiduXsK8

[@kymopar]

this answer is beyond STUPID!..just so you know who you are dealing with..i served a mission..served in the elders q. was high p. group leader..and 2nd col in bishopric..i have forgot more about the church than most people know.,.

[@johnlewis6526]

@@kymopar why did you leave

[@kymopar]

@@johnlewis6526 because the church is a sick joke..

[@kymopar]

@@zandersturgill i just watched the video..please tell me you are kidding..

[@jacobopstad5483]

If we take these testimonies as true, then we can infer that Joseph Smith did have plates. That's not unreasonable either, as similar plates in stone boxes have been found in other places. That still doesn't mean that he was able to translate them into English. Smith's false claims about the Book of Abraham should really cast doubt on his claims about the Book of Mormon.

[@markcavandish1295]

As much as Id like to believe you, it doesn’t account for the very detailed, extremely difficult text of the plates that makes up the book, and their historical accuracy.

[@jacobopstad5483]

@@markcavandish1295 Well, that seems easy enough: Joseph Smith could simply have made it all up, probably inspired by things around him

[@curiouspeanut]

@@markcavandish1295 Please tell me you don't actually believe that the BoM is historically accurate 🤣

[@markcavandish1295]

@@jacobopstad5483 it’s easy to dismiss the book on the whole, I get it. But it’s also incredibly dishonest to discredit the amount of work that’s in there. This isn’t some novel like Lord of the Rings that he spent his life on. It’s much deeper, way more complex and has many more moving parts. It really does read similar to the Bible, so if it’s that easy to write why isn’t there more scripture out there believable enough to convince millions to join? Have you ever read the Quran? It’s like reading dark ages literature. It’s very simple and stern. Very controlling. Don’t get me wrong, I left the church years ago for my personal reasons, but you’ll need to come up with a better argument for discrediting the BofM.

[@jacobopstad5483]

@@markcavandish1295 As a creative work, yes, I agree that there is a lot of credit to give. It is a compelling story and has influenced history for nearly 200 years already. It is interesting that you mention Lord of the Rings. A quick google search tells me it took 12 years for JRR Tolkien to write and then 5 more years to publish The Lord of the Rings. How long did it take Joseph Smith? At any rate, I also agree that there are other, much more damning reasons to discredit the BoM (DNA evidence, archeological evidence, eye-witness accounts of the "translation" process, etc. Take your pick). At this point, I'm forced to conclude that Joseph Smith was a gifted and charismatic scam artist who was good at getting people to believe in supernatural claims.

[@whizwhitney]

Why doesn’t he tell us what Cowdrey did during the ten years he was out of the church ?

[@jusrelaxin5245]

SOUTH PARK BROUGHT ME HERE

[@georgeking6356]

You need to be wary of implying (mostly visually) that the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica. The church has never stated officially where the narrative occurred and there is some serious disagreement between various LDS groups. It would be better not to get caught up in any of the bickering about this issue. It doesn't really matter where it occurred because the book is true. Good work and keep it up.

[@daddicusubmemeicus940]

Including the part where being black is a curse?

[@Robinfuckable]

The eight wittnesses were the Smiths and Whitmers Why not a Doctor or Lawyer Or Martin Harris wife ? Now that would be a witness !

[@floatingtigerscarriff6664]

Cuz they are not worthy to see it....try imagining what would happen if that would be the case isnt that a little of not Gods way of dealing his things?

[@floatingtigerscarriff6664]

Why would God always make prophets as a witness why not Kings just to ensure that the people would believe that those things are true?

[@havegottogitgud1864]

Oliver Cowdery was a respected Lawyer. David Whitmer was a mayor and city councilman. Martin Harris a prosperous land-owner. Btw Martin Harris' wife was shown the plates in a dream.

[@sampathrathnayaka3905]

Joseph smith chose the most weak people on this,so he can fear them with god's anger in order to do his work easily .

[@dc8617]

Mormons say that He was a prophet, but he does not satisfy what the requirements of what a prophet is!

[@AsAManFeeleth]

Correction: the 40 - 60 pounds is on the "unsealed" portion only.

[@ryanshipman3478]

Did you ever stop to think that people don't want to admit they're liars because of social repercussions?

[@seanwick4290]

Did you ever stop to think that they had no reason to lie?

[@tucuxi70]

But Joseph did not lie.

[@bwmuller]

Joseph Did Lie... Joseph Lied to Emma about polygamy, in fact he married 22 wives before telling Emma.. So he did in fact lie.. If he lied to Emma then why would he not have lied about the plates?? @@tucuxi70

[@ross-carlson]

Is there a second part to this that isn't linked? This is titled "Evidences" yet I haven't heard anything other than accounts of a tiny handful of people that, unless I'm mistaken, are all related in some very close way. I know little of Mormonism other than it should be very clear to any rational person that these plates never existed and the entire story was fabricated to give Smith and his followers more power. Can someone please link me some physical evidence? Otherwise I'd be happy to tell you the story, corroborated by many of my friends and family that this was all made up. They'll be very consistent in that throughout their lifetimes, so using the "logic" in this video, that this was all made up. Scary.

[@bigthiccyt9367]

Ross Carlson your right that don’t exist on this planet or in this world! God has them now, he did this to test our faith.

[@gary_stavropoulos]

If you don't already believe and are rational you won't be convinced.

[@nephi30]

Show me some physical evidence of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, other than what is written by witnesses in the New Testament or prophesied about in the Old Testament.

[@gary_stavropoulos]

Jesse Crawford The new testament was not written by witnesses and many of the "prophecies" of the old testament are not about Jesus or are not even prophecies.

[@nephi30]

Gary Stavropoulos show me the physical evidence of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

[@MrDonXX]

Let's take this to the most simple of things to understand ANGELS? We can stop right here.

[@DanielNelsonUtah]

You meant angels.

[@MrDonXX]

lol yes I did thanks - lol

[@manifestgtr]

Guys, if anyone ever tries to make you doubt the veracity of the plates…. Turn it off, like a light switch Just go click!

[@BeardedDisciple]

This is a great effort to do some real apologetics. I see a few problems though 1. It makes the claim that they had nothing to gain and everything to lose by keeping their testimony. That wouldn't be true because if they admitting that they made up the story they would loose their reputation of being trustworthy, something that especially in that day meant a whole lot. 2. It downplays the importance of two of the men leaving the church. If this really was true that these men witnessed such an event why would they ever leave the church that God had miraculously confirmed to them? 3. Whitmers own testimony implies that they didn't actually see the angel since 'no man can see the face of an angel' which contradicts him saying he saw with his eyes. 4. The video keeps claiming that the fact that some of the witnesses either were excommunicated from the church or left the church helps corroborate the story. How does this follow? People leaving a group that they once supported shows they no longer believe not that they still believe. 5. It makes a grand assumption that we must take another follower of Mormonism's word for believing that Joseph Smith didn't have the resources to create a fake. If we simply assume that this was just part of the ruse then all of these other 'evidences' are clearly explained.

[@utahbac9882]

Bearded Disciple hahaha the guy said there's no proof Joseph faked the plates, hahaha. Yeah angels take stuff to heaven all the time.

[@MarcusNorton1024]

RE: 1. I don't buy that fact that they'd lose their reputation of being trustworthy. They could've simply said they were tricked and provided an explanation of JS trickery (If that we actually the case). I don't think history would agree with you that they'd lose their reputation of being trustworthy since many Americans didn't trust / like Mormons anyhow. RE: 2 and 4. If people left the church or believed it were a fraud why would they maintain their testimony of the events? It's a fairly simple concept. A modern example of this would be Leah Remini who had been a part of Scientology and is now openly critical of it after she left it. RE: 3. I don't really get what your implying. Needs clarification. RE: 5 : The only assumption that the video makes is you have to take another's word for something unless you have evidence to prove that what they are saying is false. "Joseph "may" have done this and "probably" did that. Since the people who knew Joseph best treat the plates as fact, a skeptical analysis lacks evidence. A series of surmises replaces documented narrative." Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean you can fabricate another story without evidence to prove the original story incorrect.

[@MarcusNorton1024]

Where'd he say that angels take stuff to heaven all the time. Sounds like a straw man to me.

[@utahbac9882]

Marcus Norton where did the angel take the plates then?

[@utahbac9882]

Marcus Norton you religious nut jobs always cry "straw man" when something sounds completely dumb as shit. Like an angel taking 300 lb plates into heaven.

[@bgardunia]

Since Joseph didn’t use the plates for translating, does it matter?

[@randyjordan5521]

"Finally, according to the testimony of Martin Harris, Mr. Smith often used the "seer stone" in place of the Urim and Thummim, even while the latter remained in his possession using it as a mere matter of convenience. It seems almost too bad that he should thus inadvertently give the whole thing away. You must understand that the Urim and Thummim spoken of, and called throughout the Book of Mormon "the Interpreters," had been provided with great care over 2500 years ago by God himself, for the express purpose of translating these plates. They are often mentioned in the Book of Mormon as exceedingly important. They were preserved with the greatest care, handed down from one generation to another with the plates, and buried with them in the hill Cumorah over 1400 years ago; as sacred as the plates themselves. So sacred that only one man was allowed to handle or use them, the highly favored prophet, Joseph Smith himself. But now, alas! After all this trouble and pains and care on the part of God, and on the part of so many holy men of old, this "Urim and Thummim" is found at last to be altogether superfluous; not needed at all. This "peep stone" found in a neighbor's well will do the work just as well and is even more convenient, "for convenience he used the seer stone." So we are left to infer that when he used the Urim and Thummim at all, it was at some inconvenience. And probably he only did it out of regard to the feelings of his God, who had spent so much time and anxiety in preparing it so long ago, and preserving it to the present day for his special use! ("The Golden Bible", 1887, pages 250-51)

[@bgardunia]

That is just silly. So the plates weren’t needed or the urim and thummim or the seer stone. Just making up fake scripture without any extra studf

[@blusheep2]

There are numerous people commenting that the plates didn't exist. It doesn't matter if they did or didn't. It only matters that we don't have them now.

[@blusheep2]

and the existence of the plates doesn't in any way confirm that they weren't frauds or that they were delivered by an angel.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

If we had the plates before us on a table, nothing would change. We'd just have another thing to argue about.

[@blusheep2]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 agreed.

[@johnrowley310]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 Are you kidding? The plates would prove Joe wasn't the biggest conman to ever come down the road...

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@johnrowley310 Don't kid yourself. If gold plates were found, they'd only prove that "some misguided Mormons" had fabricated a prop. The whole thing would be labeled a hoax or completely ignored. How do I know this? Have you heard about the Hebrew/Egyptian artifacts and gold plates, recently discovered in Panama and now on display in the Fort David Museum? (Google it.) Instead of this being an interesting and newsworthy story, it remains virtually unknown.

[@HostileRespite]

They weren't lying about the existence of plates. I'll just say that for now.

[@mr.hansholmes2367]

REALLY?

[@iconacy]

@@mr.hansholmes2367 have you ever herd of the king darius plates? yeah gold plates sealed in a cement block with ancient writings written on it? I know what plates right?

[@karlwood7981]

WHERE ARE THE STONE TABLETS WITH THE TEN COMANDMENTS

[@ianharris3502]

THE OLD TESTAMENT IS MYTH JUST LIKE THE BOOK OF MORMON

[@PennyCilllin]

Maybe the stone tablets are hidden in Moses' magic hat.

[@dekulevi936]

I heard it's in Ethiopia.

[@thyeconomy]

The law is stored with mana, the staff of moishe in the ark of the covenant, the last people to see it and take be the romans after the sacking of the 2nd temple of Solomon around 68 ad under nero. They engraved their victory at the time in an arch that is now by the Coliseum in Italy. It shows the Roman's taking the arc of the covenant, to where I do not know.

[@truthbebold4009]

@@thyeconomy ... It was the budded rod of Aaron in the ark. Also, the Roman's spoils included the candlestick and other temple 'furniture' but the ark was not one of those items. The prophet Jeremiah had hid the ark underground when the city was under siege, where it remains to this very day. I believe it will be rediscovered and brought out and revealed to the world. God permitted Ron Wyatt to personally locate/verify the ark, the site of Jesus crucifixion, red sea crossing, Sodom and Gomorrah, Mt Sinai, and Noah's ark so that he could share these sites with the world. When the Lord sees fit, He will also permit the ark of the covenant to be removed from its present location to be a witness to Bible truth.

[@ldstandingunited246]

Excellent!

[@Lappu1984]

Really? All this logical fallacies about burden of proof son reasonable to you??? Really?

[@Lappu1984]

Kenzie K you are right.

[@henochparks]

KENZIE K HAHAHA LIE ALL ANTI MORMONS YOU ARE A LIAR.... MORE THAN 15 PEOPLE TESTIFIED THEY HELD THE PLATES....NONE OF THE 15 EVER CHANGED THEIR TESTIMONIES.

[@henochparks]

KENZIE K YOU ARE A LIAR. MARTIN HARRIS CLARIFIED THEIR TESTIMONIES AND SAID THAT HE AND THEY HELD THE PLATES.

[@henochparks]

KENZIE K HOW MANY LIES HAVE BEEN CAUGHT AT? THE OFFICIAL WITNESS WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO SAW AND HELD THE PLATES

[@MarioLuigi2013]

That’s like saying “ok you need to give your Bibles back to God”.

[@jonathonjones9150]

Well, Jesus did say there would be false prophets in the last days.