What purpose did the golden plates serve if they weren’t needed for the translation? Ep. 153

If Joseph Smith translated the golden plates via a seer stone, why were the plates themselves needed at all? Were they pointless? In this episode, Dave explores some of the answers to this question.
Video transcript and additional notes: bit.ly/3J7xO8K
From those fantastic scholars over at Book of Mormon Central: bit.ly/3lIeuFk
Some additional information to consider: bit.ly/3ICbvbF
“The Imperative for a Historical Book of Mormon” by Stephen Smoot in Interpreter Journal: bit.ly/3HzmqRt
“The Sword of Laban as a Symbol of Divine Authority and Kingship” by Brett Holbrook, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: bit.ly/3Gmg5bN
“Book of Mormon Evidence: The Nephite Ark” via Evidence Central: bit.ly/3EB28pW
Some thoughts from “AskGramps”: bit.ly/3rP2yp4
Notes:
- Another small example of how the plates were used: Joseph Smith did copy down characters directly from the plates, which Martin Harris then went and showed to a few scholars. And that experience had a significantly positive impact on Martin’s dedication to the translation project.
- While Latter-day Saints believe the Book of Mormon does tell about real history, it was never meant to be strictly used like a history textbook. Its purpose is primarily to bring souls unto Christ, not to teach you about ancient civilizations.
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[@DavoBenjamin]

If the Seer stone was used with his face put into a hat, in order to translate the Book of Mormon hence the Gold plates were never used. Then what stopped Joseph continuing his translation when Moroni took away the Gold plates after the 110 pages of the manuscript was lost? The Seer stone version makes no sense to me.

[@forzion1894]

You are correct, the stone-in-the-hat narrative makes no sense. Joseph and Oliver were always clear that the translation came from the plates "by means of the Urim & Thummim" which is the title of a new book which explains all this.

[@Elpatoloco2011]

Not to mention the fact that every depiction for fifty years or more was of him hiding behind a curtain translating directly from the gold plates , which turned out to probably not have happened at all , were extremely limited.... It's one of the main reasons. People feel betrayed by the church. Is there dishonesty in this process

[@MormonWinessesofJesusChrist]

Amen Forzion! It doesn't make sense because it's not true. It is a false narrative designed and promulgated by those who want to discredit the Restoration, Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon. Need evidence? Just look at the damage it has done to both believers and non-believers....

[@forzion1894]

Unfortunately, while it includes much useful information, the basic premise of this video is incorrect. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery frequently and consistently stated that the translation came from the plates using the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters (often referred to as the Urim and Thummim) which were deposited with the plates. Neither ever mentioned the use of a seer stone. There are a few accounts from others of Joseph using the seer stone in the hat. However, when examined critically in their full historical context, these seer stone accounts can all be seen to be late, secondhand or otherwise unreliable.

[@juliabendixen2184]

^ THIS!!! :)

[@jpenir]

So Emma Smith is unreliable?

[@Haydenpetty1488]

There’s an account of David Whitmer saying Joseph use the Cerone and that he didn’t think that he was actually translating something with a seer stone and so he swapped out the stone with a normal rock and then Joseph said he couldn’t translate that it wasn’t working and that proof to David Whitmer, that the translation was true

[@jpenir]

@@Haydenpetty1488 that was Martin Harris. Not David Whitmer

[@Haydenpetty1488]

@@jpenir thanks for the correction hard to remember names

[@rconger384]

"...we have seen the engravings..." "...seen and hefted..." "...we did handle with our hands..."

[@CadillacBunner]

What is your point? Seen, held, lifted are merely a conventional way of providing "proof" (like "you bet your boots" or don't "bet the farm on it") At best, it is living proof. At worst, it is simply a cultural/highly suispect way of providing evidence. Please read those things again (along with History of Joseph Smith). There are better reasons to doubt. Why was Oliver disfellowshipped? Why did Joseph need W.W. Phelps when he already had Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and Christian Whitmer? Why so many excommunications and broken friendships during the process of translation? I think these are very real questions

[@finicum11]

I love the insight that the plates force a dichotomy. It's either historical or it isn't.

[@danlopez.3592]

It isn’t.

[@Elpatoloco2011]

If they're historical, why do they not describe a real specific place? For instance, there was no steel in Central or North America during the time. Where they're talking about, creating bows and weapons out of steel there was steel in South America so if true, that very statement means that it must have been South America, not the Maya or Inca, or Aztec

[@barbwire7449]

The way I understand the story, one character at a time appeared, and after Smith ensured the translation was correct, that character disappeared, and a new character appeared. If Smith made sure the characters were correct, then why was the BOM edited and corrected 4,000+ times. Was it Smith's grammar or God's grammar that was in error?

[@jpenir]

Or was it removing racist language from the BOM?

[@barbwire7449]

@@jpenir Good point. I actually never thought of that.

[@forzion1894]

The accounts you are describing are very late, and primarily come form David Whitmer, who had no involvement with the actual translation, and Martin Harris, who admitted he was behind a screen when a scribe, and so thus also did not know what the process actually involved. D&C 9 (study it out in your mind and then seek spiritual confirmation) is the best description we have of the process. A translation model based on this revelation can be found in the new book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim."

[@prestonb.f.]

It’s kinda funny seeing the description say “Dave.” Still inconsequential as far as writing decisions go, but it just feels so casual.

[@KimballTho]

What’s the Colbert clip sourced from? Curious to hear the whole thing

[@rconger384]

It sounded to me like Cobert made Joseph's point. But I doubt if he really believes the Moses story anyway.

[@stevenv6463]

@@rconger384 He's a serious Catholic. I'm pretty sure he believes it.

[@johndove-cochran9496]

I really needed this answer. Can you tell me which movie did the clips you shared come from? I've seen several movies but not this one. Thank you.

[@leem3299]

It's ok to believe anything, as long as we emphasize loving others as ourselves more than doctrine or dogma. If we have the priority right, we can live in harmony with people who hold beliefs we think are really strange. Being kind is more important than believing we're right. This channel is doing pretty good on that in my opinion, but I'm wondering if they have a video specifically making this point. At the end of the day, judgement is based not on religion, but on "As you have done to the least of these you have done to me".

[@bryankeithr16]

Jesus doesn’t teach this…

[@leem3299]

@@bryankeithr16 Well, I'm pretty sure he taught, in extremely clear terms, that judgement is based on: "As you have done to the least you have done to me". And that IS Jesus actually loving others as himself. I can't imagine anything more inspiring and useful and true and marvelous and practical and inviting us to follow and bring the kingdom of heaven to earth. (Sorry about the run-on sentence.) Could you please read Matthew chapter 25, and tell me if there's anything he emphasized more during his ministry. I'm all ears my friend.

[@deweygooderson3666]

I have to whole-heartedly agree that love is central, absolutely critical and foundational to everything else we do. The scriptures are clear on this: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" -Lev. 19:18; Matt. 5:43-44; 22:37-40; Rom. 13:9; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8; Mosiah 23:15; D&C 59:6. "Love one another; as I have loved you" -John 13:34; John 15:12, 17; Moses 7:33. (and my favorite) "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail- But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him." - Moroni 7 46:47 I think what you are saying is that love always comes first and must always be the motivation of our actions (rather than proving that we are right or feeling somehow better than others because of the truths we know). If that is what you are saying, I say "preach"! However, it also sounds like you might be saying love is the only valid commandment, and the only truth worth knowing. With that I have to disagree. Love alone, for example, does not answer my deepest questions about why I exist, where I came from, or what my post-mortal future might hold. Love alone does not provide answers to why Christ came, what repentance is, or why I must rely on Him. Love alone does not provide for me a covenant framework with which to bind me to Christ and motivate righteous actions. Love alone does not give a structure to worship with others, to serve and be served by them, to preach and learn. Christ taught many things, and to your point, emphasized love many times, but that was not his only message: "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." -Matthew 4:17 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" -Matthew 28:19 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." -Matthew 5:28 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret" -Matthew 6:6 "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." - John 3:3 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." - John 14:15 There are dozens of other example of explicit commands from Jesus that go beyond love, never of course invalidating the need for love but always building on it.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

I'm pretty sure the Saints Unscripted team understand Jesus' teachings. We just can't expect every single video to cover every single possible bit of information.

[@archangel_one]

The hunt for years for the Gold Plates was a treasure hunt which was guarded by a spirit. Nothing whatsoever to do with God or scripture. It's something that screams "occult".

[@leifsorensen1656]

Question for a possible episode: What are all of the objects found with the Golden Plates. I have heard that the Sword of Laban was present, as well as the Liahona, etc.

[@ethancate8462]

I've heard this too, it would make a great video!

[@davepugh2519]

There weren't even any plates - it's a con.

[@Herosoulstone]

I'm happy you mentioned that Joseph Smith would look at the plates through the urim and thummim, they were spiritual glasses. So many people and critics leave this out of the discussion. I did when I was attacking the church at first. He would at times physically look at the plates with the urim and thummim, until they were taken away because of the lost 116 pages incident. Which then and perhaps before at times is where the seer stone came in, and God helped the stone work by the power of God it being a gift of God. Like the 16 stones in the book of Mormon that God blessed to be lights. The stone held the power and ability to contain God's gifts and powers and thus help someone who wasn't ready or able yet to do the work without the help of a tool or item like a stone. Many people who believes in crystals and stones daily cleanse their stones, and daily ask the Light or the higher power, or God to bless and magnify their stones and crystals. Brigham Young once told the brethren that Joseph Smith said everyone is entitled to a seer stone and should have one. But that most are kept from them because most people often would end up using them for evil instead of God Ordained reasons that help others come Unto Christ and become more like Christ. This is beautiful theology.

[@catherinecooper8370]

What you have said is really interesting to me. Do you have any verification of where Young said that? I just want to look. From my understanding though, like you have said about cyrstals---that is always in new age or pagan faiths, I have not seen that in the line of historic Christianity. God can so what He wants, if He wants---if He can cause a donkey to speak then He can use stones. However I don't think I've seen where stones have been used in this way to bring others to Jesus. And the use of seer stones wigs me put a bit, respectfully.

[@Herosoulstone]

@@catherinecooper8370 I believe you are Earnest, and you are a seeker of Truth. Here some quotes and verses and things to think about including the verse you wanted on this matter, let me know what you think! 😊😁 I'd love to hear. I use the word "Medium" for stone in these notes so your not confused:) Aaron had several crystals on his breastplate he used in the temple and with and in accordance to God. Joseph in the bible according to some thought and scripture, could've used a stone God gave him for several things Godly. “Every man who lived on the earth,” Joseph said to them, “was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it.” (Brigham Young’s journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119) Moroni 7 16/ or 7 13 (((for every """"thing"""" which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil;))) Brigham Young Once Said - everything in nature has a spirit. “The spirit constitutes the life of everything we see. Is there life in these rocks, and mountains? There is. Then there is a spirit peculiarly adapted to those rocks and mountains.... There is a spirit nicely adapted to the various productions of the vegetable kingdom.”3 Also Stone Oracles - Mesoamerican priests looked into sacred stones or rock statues as oracles, similar to what’s described in the Book of Mormon. Diego Landa mentioned “divining stones” among the “sorcerers.” They used quartz crystal for their divination: “magnifying glasses or spectacles, by which things may be seen more clearly.” This sounds exactly like the instrument Joseph Smith had to translate the Book of Mormon: “stones, describing them as white or clear in appearance, set in silver bows or rims like modern eyeglasses or spectacles.” Here is a thought: ebenezer means "stone aid" or a stone that helps. So, it is fun that the word "ebenezer" could be used to refer to those stones we have that are mediums for us. the story with the brother of Jared and god blessing us through stones has been magnifying to me recently. It's amazing how God uses stones that men think nothing of, while God sees infinite potential in stones, like how god sees infinite potential in us. He can use stones to bless us in amazing ways, and he can use us to bless others in amazing ways. we might not be able to see how God can help a stone to do amazing things, but if we can understand the symbolism of this then we can realize that small and simple things can do extraordinary things in and with the power of God. "There is life in the material of the fleshly tabernacle, independent of the spirit given of God to undergo this probation" Brigham Young "There is not one particle of element, which is not filled with life. . . . There is life in all matter, throughout the vast extent of all the eternities; it is in the rock, the sand, the dust, in water, and gases, and in short, in every description and organization of matter whether it be solid, liquid, or gaseous, particle operating within particle." Brigham Young "[A]ll God's creations-including animals, plants, even, it seems, the rocks themselves-have a spiritual existence and identity that can be loved and must be respected." Eugene England Other Writings of Mormons "Gooseberry Creek: A Narrative of Hope," in New Genesis: A Mormon Reader on Land and Community, 89. Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! And let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let all the sons of God shout for joy! And let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever! And again I say, how glorious is the voice we hear from heaven, proclaiming in our ears, glory, and salvation, and honor, and immortality, and eternal life; kingdoms, principalities, and powers! DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS D&C 128:23 I think many of our brothers and sisters struggle with occult things being used in the restoration because they don't understand the filter virtue. My friend the other day said "Just this week, I was frustrated with my own pride and I prayed for help and God lead me to a rock that is very humble. I consecrated this rock with water and oil, symbols of Christ's atonement, and then, after just one day with this rock, my ability to be humble before Christ had changed in a way that would have taken me years without a medium. How can something that helps someone repent in Christ's name more effectively be bad?" It is true that there are plenty of people who have used mediums for evil. Satan has counterfeits for every good principle. For example, there are churches that teach some things that aren't true. Someone might realize this and then decide to not attend any church. There are some people who use mediums for evil. Some people might realize this and then not use any mediums. Mediums are so powerful for helping us do good. If Satan can get us to reject them because some are used for evil then he has won a little victory. But your mediums are gifts from Christ. To reject them would be to reject Christ in a way. This is all my opinion. You of course should test the fruits of what I say. Get on your knees and pray about all of this. God will lead you on a good path. "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift" (D&C 88:33).

[@germanslice]

@@HerosoulstoneI know that King David went to the High Priest of God who had the Ephod that contained the Urim and Thummim in it to ask God what to do in his battles in Israel. So King David did get Revelation from God from the future through using the Urim and Thummim from God's High Priest. So why couldn't God also do the same forJoseph Smith to translate an ancient record of scripture. So King david had quite the advantage because of having that Urim and Thummim in his possession. 1 Samuel 23:9. 1 Samuel 30:7-8. King David went to the high priest containing the urim and Thummuim because the Urim and Thummim was how revelation from God was given when David inquired of God.. As God knows everything and tells King David what will happen in the future before it even happens.. The urim and thummim was held by the high priest of God.Ex 28:30 'Put in the breastplate of judgement the Urim and Thummim. ''65. And the Trshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with urim and thummim. (Nem 7:65) So yes, God uses stones to reveal things through and give revelation about the past, present and future.bu God uses these things for righteous purposes.

[@forzion1894]

Although the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters were taken from Joseph after the loss of the 116 pages, they were returned with the plates and he used them (not the seer stone) to translate the rest of the Book of Mormon as the Lord intended. See HS-H 1:35.

[@CalledtoShare]

The plates were also need to etch a copy of characters to bring to the various professors, Anthon being one of them...(just noticed this was mentioned in the video description)

[@atheistapostate7019]

Called to Share NO professor EVER saw the "golden Plates" period. Anton was shown written down characters on paper, NOT the plates. Anton also then went on to state it was a fraud. "In 1834, Anthon stated in a letter that, "The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be 'reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics' is perfectly false. ... I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax" - E.D. Howe

[@adamholloway7963]

Around 1829, John Whitmer claimed to have copied characters that are found in the gold plates of the BoM and this document is now known as the Caractors Document. (Appendix 2, Document 1. Characters Copied by John Whitmer, circa 1829-1831 - Joseph Smith Papers) In 1844, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints published a broadside about the BoM called "The Stick of Joseph" that reprinted some "reformed Egyptian" characters that resemble those on the first three lines of the "Caractors" document. The broadside said that the characters were those that had been shown to Anthon by Martin Harris. (James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, The Story of the Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1992), 57 & Broadside, Appendix 2, Document 3. Stick of Joseph, 1844 - Joseph Smith Papers) The symbols on the Caractors document were published a second time on December 21, 1844 in the LDS newsletter, The Prophet. The newsletter states, “The following is a correct coppy [sic] of the characters taken from the plates the Book of Mormon was translated from; the same that was taken to Professor Mitchell, and afterwards to Professor Anthon of the city of New York, by Martin Harris” (The Prophet, December 21, 1844 p. 122). Modern day scholars have attempted and failed to decipher the meaning of the Reformed Egyptian characters found in the Caractors document and stated the reason for the failure is because, “the corpus is not large enough to render decipherment feasible”. (Gee, John (2000) "Some Notes on the Anthon Transcript," Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 1989-2011: Vol. 12 : No. 1 , Article 4, p. 8) However,, the LDS church teaches in its canonized scripture that, “Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian...he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters” (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64-65) and that Dr. Mitchell “sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.” (Joseph Smith - History, 1:65) First, if modern-day linguists cannot decipher the characters, then how could professor Anthon and Dr. Mitchell decipher them in 1828? Second, if they really were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyric, and Arabic characters, like the LDS Church teaches, then how is “the corpus...not large enough to render decipherment feasible” when modern day linguists can decipher those characters? Third, how could there be, according to the LDS Church, Arabic characters copied from the gold plates if the Arabic alphabet did not exist until, at the earliest, 400+ A.D.? (Arabic alphabet - Britannica) Fourth, how, according to LDS canonized scripture, in 1828, could professor Anthon have verified, “that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian” (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64) and Dr. Mitchell have “sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation” (Joseph Smith - History, 1:65) when, “It would have been impossible for any American scholar to know enough about Egyptian inscriptions to read them before the publication of Champollion's grammar” in 1836? (Dr. James H. Breasted, Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago, quoted in Joseph Smith, Jr., as a translator: an inquiry, 1912, p 25) Fifth, on Feb. 17, 1834, Professor Charles Anthon denied the LDS Church’s claim that he or Dr. Mitchell verified the “reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” Martin brought to them. “The whole story about having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be ‘reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics’ is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me with a note from Dr. Mitchell of our city, now deceased, requesting me to decypher, if possible, a paper, which the farmer would hand me, and which Dr. M. confessed he had been unable to understand. Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax.” (Professor Charles Anthon's Letter - UTLM & Professor Charles Anthon's Letter, as published in Mormonism Unvailed, 1834, pages 270-272) According to the evidence available today, which version is more likely the truth? The LDS Church’s canonized version of the events or Professor Anthon’s version?

[@rachelczumaya2806]

Thank you for this video. I was wondering the same thing the other day. And that is fascinating to think of the book of Mormon as an ark of the covenant, because there is so much prophecy fulfilled in that.

[@Jesus-warrior]

You see Book of Mormon as a ark of the covenant?!? Hahhahah yikes

[@ethancate8462]

​@@mikkifrompreston4396 there are a few reasons for this. During the three days before Christ's resurrection, it's stated that the land was destroyed in such a manner it was almost unrecognizable. I could be wrong but this is also just what I've heard, anyone is free to correct me. Also, we haven't even begun to explore everything in mesoamerica. Recent satellite scans show there is MUCH we haven't discovered under the dense forest.

[@ethancate8462]

​@@mikkifrompreston4396 after re-reading your comment you asked why it wasn't at the hill cumorah. Didn't Mormon and Moroni travel for roughly 40 years to get there? I would imagine the wars were more south.

[@archangel_one]

@@ethancate8462 You can look up the exact location on Google Maps. Type in Moroni, Comora.

[@gordons-alive4940]

How many gold plates are there anyway? I read a claim that there were only 40. Most have been REALLY small print.

[@davidraleigh4118]

Thanks David Snell!!!!! Great information and testimony.

[@forzion1894]

The online commenter this video responds to was not the only person to ask this question. Joseph Fielding Smith also pointed out that it made no sense that God would cause the creation and delivery of the plates and interpreters if the translation could happen using a rock. (Doc of Salvation 2:316) The rationales presented here are ex post facto justifications created to rationalize modern LDS scholars' acceptance of claims that Joseph and Oliver's were lying about the translation being carried out with the plates and interpreters God prepared and delivered so that Joseph could bring forth the Book of Mormon. However, both Joseph and Oliver stated repeatedly that the Book of Mormon was translated using the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters (also called the Urim & Thummim) which came with the plates and were provided by God for for the translation (JS-H 1:35). For our book 'By Means of the Urim & Thummim' we did a deep dive into the sources which claim that Joseph used his treasure-hunting stone for the translation, and found them all to be late (often posthumous), secondhand and overall unreliable, especially compared to Joseph and Oliver's firsthand eyewitness testimony that Joseph used the ancient interpreters which came with the plates (accounts which stone-in-the-hat proponents generally down play or ignore as in this video). If you accept Joseph and Oliver's testimony, the strained rationalizations in this video become unnecessary.

[@jpenir]

Late references for using the seer stone? ED Howe literally wrote about the translation process in 1834's "Mormonism Unvailed". Isaac Hale (Emma's father) literally spoke about the rock in the hat a mere 3 years after the BOM was published!

[@forzion1894]

@@jpenir Howe gives no sources, and his book is the first time the stone-in-the-hat account appears. The Isaac Hale account is recorded years later, and was clearly influenced by Howe, not by anything Hale actually saw.

[@skylerjensen8215]

The work you guys do is very needed in these times where the perceived need for faith is decreasing. Keep up the good work it is much appreciated!

[@xxxgabaxxx]

You mean these times of internet where facts and lies are exposed?

[@scottbrandon6244]

The confusing thing for members is why a need to write things down if they were not used all the time in translation. Prophets and apostles wrote things down historically for us to remember. The word is used 400 times in the standard works. Records are for our benefit to connect us to the past. The Old Testament books for example are a record of origins and people before the coming of Christ.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Just because something is not used *all the time* does not mean it was *never* used. As David mentioned in his presentation, some scribes described Joseph as using the plates during the translation process, others did not. The consensus seems to be that while necessary at first, they were no longer needed at the end of the process. Even a miraculous translation needs something to be translated.

[@scottbrandon6244]

@@brettmajeske3525 Here lies the problem Brett. It is only recently the church acknowledged the top hat and seer stone. They denied that theory for decades. In fact they used to excommunicate anyone who published material about a top hat. Back in the 90s the Urim and Thummin stone theory was promoted with the plates in front of JS. There was never a mention of them fashioned as glasses like in this video. The breastplate never rarely mentioned at all. The gaslighting used by apologists is incredible. If there was a two method approach like you propose in your post only one was mentioned to previous generations of latter-day saints. That is a shame because we need to know all of our history, good or bad. The whole purpose of prophets in the Book of Mormon writing records was so we would have it today.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@scottbrandon6244 Well, John Widtsoe was an Apostle, and he published books that mention the seer stones. I don't recall anyone specifically stating it was a top hat, since the Whitmer just use the word 'hat', but Widtsoe quoted both the Whitmers and expressed his own views. It was only Joseph Feilding, and his son and nephew -in-laws who insisted that the Whitmers were wrong and denied the existence of seer stones. BH Roberts also mentions them in his comprehensive history and he wasn't excommunicated either. Frankly, I am not aware of anyone who was excommunicated just for writing about seer stones. As far as the spectacles and breatplate, those are both mentioned in Joseph History, canon scripture, one cannot get anymore official than that. Again both Roberts and Widtsoe go into more detail in their histories. Bruce R McConkie, when explaining what the Urim and Thummim are uses the description of the spectacles. Gordon B Hinkley mentions the spectacles in his history, he was given replicas of them as a gift when he became Prophet. I learned about the spectacles and breastplate in Seminary, Sunday School, and Institute back in the 80s. The only two versions I have ever seen taught are the spectacles and the seer stones, so I am not sure what you thought was meant by Urim and Thummim, but everyone I know either always assumed they meant just the spectacles, or meant any tool used for translation without being specific. You seem to think the phrase means some else, and I have no clue what that might be. I know the Hill Cumorah Vistor's Center had illustrations of both the spectacles and seer stones in the late 80s, because I saw them myself when my sister was in the pageant.

[@DavidNellTheHarbinger]

Dave. .IS HERE MAN lol

[@SeanPLangdon]

One of the greatest swindles ever

[@tonnysarpong5090]

Nice 👍

[@incorruptibleword4513]

What is the relevance if everyone will be saved no matter what they believe?

[@barbwire7449]

Correct!!! If everyone will eventually come to saving grace, why do we need the golden plates, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham (alias Book of Mummy), or Doctrines and Covenants? Great question!!

[@ethancate8462]

​@@barbwire7449 short answer, to achieve our full potential and be exalted to live with God

[@zrosix2240]

People forget all things are possible with god. What’s the point of anything if god can just will it differently? Do you not understand that god in any abrahamic faith could’ve had Joseph translate it without the plates? Obviously god wasn’t incapable of doing this without the plates, so it’s obvious there’s a reason for it. You just need to look for it

[@TheJanesaw]

Another explanation is they were needed, plain and simple and the narrative that they are not needed is false. If they weren’t needed it makes no sense that Moroni would give them to JS and put him and his family at risk and the plates themselves.

[@germanslice]

What is the point of dragging the gold plates around everywhere and why the adversary tried every means to try to take the plates away from Joseph so the translation wouldn't go ahead. Because the Devil didn't want certain prophecies of the scriptures to get fulfilled..... It was in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah in Chapter 29. Where a seer would be raised up by God to translate that sealed book from another time period using those tools. God gave Joseph access to the time period the plates were written in. Where did the book of Mormon come from? It came from another time period. As John the Revelator had testified to the world that one of the seven angels in the book of Revelations was appointed by God to preach the gospel in the last days. And before people start going to Galatians and saying the angle of heaven is the angle of the devil with another gospel, Those people who keep making the mistake of looking for evidence in Joseph's time period when the evidence actually came out from another time period should wake up and realize that John the Revelator already had an Angle of Heaven come down to his face to reveal to him who would be given the everlasting gospel in these last days. God showed John the Revelator who he gave the everlasting gospel to the hands of to fulfill Isaiah Chapter 29 and other prophecies in the scriptures about the gospel being taken away and given to another nation and that's exactly what God had done and why Zion was established in America. And so what you have with the recordings of the Bible is remnants of the everlasting gospel that used to be in israel but the authority was lost from the earth when the apostles were killed eventhough John the revelator did not hold all the keys of the kingdom so he was appointed by God to talk about what God would do in the last days with the everlasting gospel... Paul didn't know God had come down to John by an angle of heaven to tell him who would have the everlasting gospel because Paul was already dead by the time John recieved the update from the angle of heaven from God. And the angle of heaven did reveal to John in Revelations Chapter 19 and chapter 22 that he the angle used to be a prophet of God living on the earth keeping the commandments of God as a righteous saint of God before he became a ministering angle to God in Heaven. I suspect this angle talking to John may have been the Angle Moroni who came down to him on the Isle of Patmos to show John what the angle Moroni was going to be doing in the last days. 'Then he said unto me, see thou doest it not, for I am of thy fellow servant and of thy brethren the prophets and of them which KEEP the sayings of this book. Worship God. .. ' the angle of heaven declared to John. So the angle of heaven who had all this time been talking to John had confessed to Johh that he used to be a human once living on the earth as a righteous saint to God and was a prophet of God before becoming a ministering angle of heaven. That's why John saw all the kings sitting up in heaven next to God Having won the crowns of eternal life and had entered into glory and exaltation to dwell with God. And Paul himself was already following instructions given to him from Angles of Heaven by God to tell Paul what to do and where to go so the another gospel argument is very weak because its not another gospel that this angle had but its the same everlasting gospel that would be restored in the last days by the power of God...... Paul did know there would be a Time of Restitution of all things, (Acts 3) that's why the prophet is telling us teh gospel is continually being restored.. So Paul did know the everlasting gospel would be returning back again in the last days. That the woman and her 12 stars (12 apostles) that john saw would be returning back in the last days. That's why the prophet Isaiah wrote that in the last days, that out of Zion and from Jersualem shall the law of God be preached out to all the nations of the world and why Amos and Micah and others prophets wrote that the Lord shall also Roar from out of Zion and speak his word from Jersualem. And why Isaiah wrote that Salvation of the Lord shall be found in Zion, and that "Zion shall be redeemed with Judgement and her Converts with Righteousness. Isaiah 1:27. So God was going to establish a global church called Zion and judge the converts in Zion with his own righteous standards which we call the Church Standards. . So the truth of God is going to come from out of Zion and from Jersualem in the last days. For the bible took over 40 people to translate it. But the sealed Book in Isaiah Chapter 29 which is the coming forth of the Book of Mormon a record from out of the dust of the earth only took one single guy to read it. But the sealed portion of the book was not read. So the people were given the unsealed portion of the book, became converted to the true knowledge of their Lord and Redeemer that was in the record. and those that murmured started to then learn doctrine. The Prophet Jeremiah also saw a glimpse into Joseph's own time period and wrote about it in Jeremiah Chapter 34:21-24. After God draws that man out and he approaches him then God establishes a Zion people through drawing out that man to him and it wasn't Jesus as Bible Only Believing Christians say because Jesus wasn't called out by God to translate his own word. And if you note Verse 24. Its talking about a day and a time where the Whirlwinds will be everywhere. The Tornadoes and hurricanes coming from all the crazy weather on the planet. Its not talking about Isaiah's own time period. Its talking about the latter-days where everything will be all in commotion on the planet. Isaiah also gives another clue when he tells you what the beliefs of heaven are of those who do belong in Zion in the last days where the transgressors in Zion will all murmur among themselves which the prophet Micah also saw these disobedient saints in vision in Zion and described all the murmurings of the saints in Zion in Chapter 3 of Micah.. While the righteous saints in Zion will be all busy working on the book of remembrance (genealogy) , the transgressors will be all busy murmuring and arguing against the Lord against him in Zion and speaking stout strong words against God. Saying the gospel ordinance of God is worthless and has no value.'What profit it us that we have kept his ordinance; they complain. And the dissenters say the gospel is worthless to them because they believe the gospel was all made up... So God knows what's going on. That's why Jesus gave the parable of the ten virgins to explain what's going to happen in Zion in the last days. Some will be wise and some will be foolish. So Isaiah saw in Zion (the rebellious and the disobedient in Zion) who will say among themselves 'Who among us shall dwell in everlasting burnings? Then Isaiah tells them how they can dwell with God in the next verse down in verse 15 where gives a list that is similar to Church Standards.. . And it is true for God dwells in a place of everlasting burnings of fire and great glory for God comes from the Kingdom of the Glory of the Sun. So Isaiah is telling the truth as he was taken up into heaven himself by God to see God and all the angles that exist in that place. Isaiah Chapter 6. So the clues are all there in the scriptures that that would be a latter day seer and prophet raised up by God in the last days to establish Zion upon the earth and the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the everlasting gospel that God would bring again in the last days to establish Zion.... The Lord will AGAIN bring Zion. That's why Zion would be restored back in the latter days.

[@germanslice]

he also used the interpreters that came in the box with the record to do the rest of the translation.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

No translation, Joseph merely mouthed words which were appearing before him, while others (his scribes) wrote the words. (And yes, sometimes with his head in his hat.) The term "translated" was a term proposed by the publisher. The whole process was said to have been completed in about 3 months. Joseph was only 22 years old. His own wife would later say that Joseph (at that time of his life) could only read and write with difficulty. Nobody could translate ancient text in the early 1800's. The plates only provided a physical and tangible link to the past and something which others would later swear to seeing.

[@Lion_Hamza]

What you say makes no sense. Joseph Smith “translated” the book of Abraham from papyrus he bought from a guy. As you said nobody could translate hence the book of Abraham is his invention

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@Lion_Hamza The exact method of "translation" for the Pearl of Great Price (which includes the Book of Abraham) is unknown. It wouldn't surprise me however, if Joseph actually conversed with Abraham, Moses and others of the dispensations of time. Joseph said later in his life "no man knows my history." Instead of judging Joseph, I suggest judging the context of the words he left behind. The Pearl of Great Price, is all that the title suggests and one of the most remarkable books of scripture we have.

[@Herosoulstone]

@Seek Truth he did run his fingers over it, at that time though their was a cloth between him and the scribe so Joseph could look at the plate directly, although while Joseph could run his fingers over the plate he used the urim and thummim seer glasses to look at the plates out in the open with the curtain their at least so nobody could see the plates or they would be destroyed as the Lord said would happen to protect them until the time of witnesses where they too could see the plates with their physical and spiritual eyes, he used these spectacles until they were taken away as God said he would if Joseph lost the manuscript, then God worked with Joseph again later and Joseph worked with the stone in the hat, but the stone only worked in the hat so Joseph would cover the plates with the cloth in those cases, tbh in all of my church history research I'm unsure if Joseph ever got the urrim and thummim glasses back after they were taken away, he might've but I'm still trying to figure that out cause Joseph would later consider his seer stone a kind of urrim and thummim at that later point.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@Seek Truth You're suggesting some sort of a Church cover-up? I've been aware of all the facts since I was a teenager in the 1970's, so I don't think so. It's true however, that the Internet has made information easier to find and more readily available. As a result more members and non-members alike, are now aware of former obscurities. This has forced the Church to be more open and forthright about controversial issues. This is seen by some as "a cover-up" but it's just that we now live in the "age of information."

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@Seek Truth I learned about the various translation methods and historical accounts while I was a teenager in Seminary class, in the late 1960's (including Joseph putting his head in his hat.) It is true however that only a glossed-over version was ever taught to us. I've always been a bit of a reader however and therefore learned somethings on my own. I learned for example, that Joseph had a personal seer-stone that he liked to carry around with him for a time. The specific use of that stone besides the traditional spectacle-story, was largely unknown to me however, until the Church published articles about it in 2015.

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

Why do we shake hands? Or give hugs? Or hold hands? Its all a symbolic gesture or form of bond. Same thing with the plates. Plus it helps strengthen Smiths faith.

[@scottbrandon6244]

The seer stone in the hat was never acknowledged by the church until recently. It is part of gospel topics essay now. But back in the 1990s the top hat theory was dismissed as "anti-mormon". What was taught back in the 1990s and early 2000s was the urim and thummin (no called interpreters). These two stones were used to translation directly by JS from the gold plates. A scribe then wrote down the dictated translation. Some accounts of witnesses (Harris, four Whitmers, and Emma Smith) talked about the top hat and seer stone. In some cases, the plates were alleged to be in a bag or not in the room when the translation was happening. There could easily have been two methods used at different phases of the translation. However the top hat theory was not taught in church materials until recently, while the two stones model and direct translation from the plate was taught. I have pamphlets from the elders that taught the two stone theory. And there was no mention of a breastplate or glasses as depicted in this video. Look at the February 2001 Ensign. The cover clearly shows a two stone model. People were ex'd in the past from the church for suggesting a seer stone and top hat. This may be in part due to denial but also the fact the seer stone was tied to treasure digging by the Smith family. Now it is part of the narrative as found in the church website including gospel topic essays. When the presenter here says "as you already know" no in fact guy many church members do no know this fact since they were taught otherwise in sunday school, seminary, institute, church teachings, Ensign, youth classes etc.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Then Elder Nelson taught about the Seer Stones in 1992. Elder John Widtsoe of the Q12 wrote about them in his Comprehensive History published in the 1950s. BH Roberts talked about them in the early 1900s. All three also talked about the spectacles/breastplate as did Gordon B Hinkley in his History, not to mention Jospeh Smith History which is canon scripture. I agree the evidence strongly supports at least two different methods were used, but I disagree that the seer stone in a hat (it would not have needed to be a top hat) or interpreters (spectacles/breastplate) were never taught. Name one person who was excommunicated for believing in the seer stones, since multiple Apostles taught such, it would be rather remarkable. There was (and is) disagreement about the reliability of some witnesses, but that is a far cry from excommunication. The Seer Stones were part of a public display in the 1980s, hardly hidden. The spectacles/breastplate understanding of interpreters/Urim and Thummim is not new and has always been part of the discussion, to the point that some likely didn't think it worth mentioning. I think the Pearl of Great Price trumps the Ensign. I just read the article, which never gives any description of the tools used, only calling them "the Urim and Thummim". So it did not teach what you claimed. The phrase "Urim and Thummim" was used for both the interpreters and the seer stones by Oliver Cowdery, and the Pratt brothers in their respective writings. IT is a phraseology that does not distinguish between the two. Your misunderstanding is not a refutation.

[@scottbrandon6244]

@@brettmajeske3525 Are you talking about the July 1993 Ensign article? Then Elder Nelson did not teach about the top hat and seer stone. He quoted accounts of people who saw the translation process. Besides a book by Neal Maxwell from the 90s, these are the only references I have from before I joined the church in 1998. It was never mentioned in any priesthood, Sunday School, Relief Society, Institute manual, or BYU religion course manual. I have material from church leaders going back to the 1890s. There is nothing there. Fawn Brodie was excommunicated for her book which discusses the top hat and seer stone. You mention BH Roberts. He was a rebel historian. He was the one who told the church their narrative could not sustain itself. The book by Widtsoe is not widely available anymore.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@scottbrandon6244 I am sorry you didn't know. They were discussed in several different Institute Classes I took in the late 80s and throughout the 90s. BH Roberts was not a rebel historian, his Comprehensive History of the Church was commissioned by the First Presidency, and approved by them for publication. IT is true that Roberts, Talmage, Witdsoe, and Richards had a very different educational ideology than Joseph F and Joseph Feilding. One camp believed the best way to prepare members and missionaries was to tell them about potential difficulties, the Smiths and their in-laws believed in only teaching faith supporting stories. By the late 1960s, the only member of the Witdsoe faction left was Hugh B Brown, and Joseph Feilding was the president of the Q12. After Joseph Feildings death his son and nephew in laws promoted that same ideology, with only Neil A Maxwell as a counterpoint. By the 2000s newer Apostles like Uchtdorf advocated to a more Roberts/Talmage style. BYU Studies has multiple articles on various issues, including the seer stones, that would become the basis for the Gospel topic essays a decade later. Apparently, most of the leaders thought the specific mater of what tools were used when to be unimportant, the "Gift and Power of God" being their focus. Fawn Brodie's book contained far more excommunication worthy material than "seer stones", which I doubt anyone thought was the big problem. The fact that she claimed Joseph Smith was delusional is a much more likely canidate for her membership issues.

[@forzion1894]

Actually the stone-in-the-hat accounts are late, misrepresented and unreliable. For example, there were no accounts from "four Whitmers." Rather John, who was an actual scribe, said Joseph used the Urim & Thummim interpreters and only David talked about the stone in the hat, but David was never a scribe and had no direct knowledge of the translation process. See the new book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim" where this is all explained in detail.

[@Koburnin]

Ayyyyy been waiting for this one!!

[@johns1834]

Interesting Smith is shown casually walking, carrying, and swinging the plates in a sack, sort of like coming home with a loaf of bread. When in fact; if the plates were really gold as moroni described, then they would have weighed about 200 lbs and not be carried so easily, much less easily swung like a club to ward off attackers trying to steal the plates. Faced with this question, Smith later described the plates as gold in color, possibly copper, which only weighed 47 lbs or so. Still a bit heavy to easily swing as a weapon. In addition, it’s difficult to believe moroni and mormon didn’t know the difference between real gold and something only gold in color, given their Hebrew heritage where gold was a precious commodity.

[@Heartsinmelody]

I think the stone in the hat is not settled as far as the Book of Mormon translation. The record is dubious on this matter.

[@Heartsinmelody]

@Seek Truth how so? Gospel topic essays are not settled. As further information comes to light they will be adjusted. They are academic papers, not revelations.

[@Heartsinmelody]

@Seek Truth yeah. And?

[@Heartsinmelody]

@Seek Truth there you are - I see you. Now.

[@gregoryroberts9230]

This still doesn't make any sense. If the plates were not needed for translation, then all anyone can do is speculate about possible reasons to somehow try to make sense of something that otherwise doesn't make any sense. Also, why does the church always portray Joseph as translating the plates by looking directly at them, instead of burying his face in a hat, which the church even confirms is the actual way he translated them? Why would the church intentionally misrepresent the translation process in church videos and art? I think the answer is obvious: the truth makes it appear like he's a fraud. But then isn't that dishonest for the church to visually misrepresent the translation process? 🤔

[@Irvingdector]

Joseph looked directly at the places some times (according to Emma smith). And sometimes he had to hide the plates from robbers. So basically sometimes he looked at the plates and sometimes no. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

[@forzion1894]

You are correct that this does not make any sense. Joseph and Oliver clearly stated that the translation came from the plates "by means of the Urim & Thummim" (which is also the title of a new book which explains all of this in detail). This was what the Church clearly taught from the 1800s through the end of 20th century. Then, unfortunately, some scholars (including whoever wrote this video) and some Church bureaucrats bought into the stone-in-the-hat story. Church leaders have never officially pronounced on this issue, and we are trying to get Joseph and Oliver's original accounts restored to their proper prominence.

[@Spirit_to_seek]

Spoiler alert: There were no plates.

[@luckyikaneng7038]

matthew 24:24

[@MrBilgey]

Do The First Presidency know that you are producing the video?

[@keithwolfe1942]

Some cons take on a life of their own. When enough people buy into a con it really takes off, but the con remains a con.

[@keithwolfe1942]

Wes: there are several that a religious in nature. One in the seventh century southeast of Constantinople, another in Western New York in the 1830's moving to Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, and later out west. One in Boston mid 19th century, and another in Pennsylvania starting around 1870. There are many more, but that should give you a clue. BTW: each of these, except the Boston one, founded by a woman, drastically changed not only in the second generation, but somewhat in succeeding generations. Each have in common that the revelation of the founders of the con (religion) can not provide either cross reference nor support evidence that their unique revelation is true and thus have no external validation, except blind acceptance of founders statements.

[@keithwolfe1942]

Wes: the Old Testament starting in the very beginning speaks of a coming Messiah. Then all through the old Testament there are clues of that coming Messiah. Jesus met all the criteria of that Messiah. So there were several that wrote of him for over a thousand years, then preceeding him John the Baptist spoke of him. So Christianity has a foundation that is solid, verified, and documented.

[@keithwolfe1942]

Wes: a lot of what you say is true, very true. And yes all religions can be a con, including organized hierarchical Christianity. Actually Jesus warned us about that, often.

[@karatevideosandmore7685]

Ok....let's remember something....the witnesses other then the Three Witnesses who saw the Plates we're testifing to seeing physical plates that were inscribed with what appeared to them as finely detailed ancient script.....they were/are testifing to the reality of the Nephite artifact. Now the Three Whiteness....and this is important!!!.....an Angel actually showed them the Plates and other Nephite artifacts.....and it was the Lord's own voice attesting that what Joseph Smith Translated was true and a correct translation......did ya all get that?......No one on the planet, including Anthon, could have any understood what those characters meant.....well perhaps the Mecmac tribe of Indians as they had a written language that nearly matches the Book of Mormon Characters.....this is why the difference between the two groups of official witnesses......God had to be the One to testify of the correctness of the translation......so regardless of the process of Translation God's final approval heard by three others is good enough for me. Also.....I am good with the majority of the Book Translated by Joseph's Seer stone.....because the "Interpreters" were given to Jared by God, and we're to remain with Jared's Vision which we do not have a fullness of at the moment.....they were meant for that translation not Mormon's and and he son's abridgement........

[@brucegillingham2793]

How do you accept the seer stone as not occultic magic when Joseph was convicted in a court of law as a fraud (treasure digger) using the exact same stone? That trial occurred while he was still crafting the BOM. JS's own loved ones point to him stretching the truth and telling fanciful stories. lets not forget that all the witnesses the church uses to verify JS was a real profit all later recanted their testimony but the church now dismisses them as unreliable?

[@archangel_one]

Shouldn't every thinking person on the planet wonder what the point of the Plates were? Unlike Smith, the prophets of God wrote by the Spirit of God... 2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon does not follow this pattern... 2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. The hunt for years for the Gold Plates was a treasure hunt which was guarded by a spirit. Something that screams "occult" and has nothing to do with God whatsoever.

[@GMMXX80]

That's the point. We have no problem ever saying, and people say constantly: "God works in mysterious ways" but then we move on like it was just fun to say. Just as when people seek justice for heinous crimes, they believe in God, and if the justice system fails then they figure the worst that could have ever happened to them they just got away with so they're bitter. There's never the thought that they still have God's Judgement to look forward to. They seem to firmly believe that Grace saves everyone no matter what they do and that God isn't just. So, to say that God works in mysterious ways, that's exactly it. God works in His own way and by His own methods because He knows better. Does it make sense to mortals that Joseph Smith would translate and film depicts running his finger along the plates while wearing a massive bullet proof vest with glasses attached to it? (That's pretty innovative. Nephites had the monocle beat, but it was heavy) but it really does feel dissapointing that after all that trouble, he looks into a hat just as treasure hunters did in his area in line with their folklore (which is satanic deception). So, actually kinda interesting, maybe, God turns the tables on Lucifer using Lucifers means of deception to accomplish His own work. But, the thing in, that's how God opted to do it. As he stated, the record was still kept by the Nephites and they still went through the effort to make it. You could also say: Why have the cave at all with stacks and stacks of records when Nephi could've just appeared to Mormon like Raphael appeared to and dictated the Quran for Mohammed and look how many followers Mohammed has from professing he sat in a cave and dictated writings from Noah that don't even confirm Jesus as the Son of God, and Islam is a major world religion. Yet, Joseph Smith claimed Mohammed was an inspired man of God for God to do His will in the best way He could (which is confusing too, confuse them to bring them to truth) but that's how we know God works, it doesn't make sense to us because it's not supposed to. But we find there is a reason or purpose to it. While the New Testament is found on scrolls on paper that is already deteriorating (look at the Book of Mormon transcript and how beat up it is and it's only about 200 years old. New Testament scrolls are nearly 2000 years old so imagine the New Testament? Nephi asking why he's gotta carry around the Old Testament on heavy plates instead of a scroll of paper, and he learned that's how he had to record his history so it could endure the test of time, AND NOT RUST. The plates were a physical object that some could see and heft to validate them and Joseph Smith while others were on the hunt to get wealthy off of them, as the Spaniards may have done with ancient records they found seeing them as gold to melt down for other things, who cares what was written in them, they wouldn't care, it was money so, God asks people to do a lot of strange things that require a lot of effort to come out on the other end going: "Why did you just make me go through all that steps 1-1a-2-2a-2b-3-3a-3b-4-4a-5-6a-6b when you couldve just had me do 1,3, and 6? "To test your faith." Was it really necessary to test Job because the Devil tempted God to do it for his own gratification and to try and ruffle God's feathers? It was already known. But God indulged Lucifer anyway to prove a point and sadly Job had everything taken from him for no reason other than for God to prove the devil a fool, Job just so happened to be the target in a wager. So who knows. Ask why Mohammed received the Quran the way he did and why nobody, except die hard Christians, give him any flac for it when he claimed Jesus was just a prophet and Joseph Smith claimed him inspired. (Shrugs) Why? And who really appeared to Mohammed? Was it the devil that fed him 60% truths in order to sell the 40% lies so the truth counts as inspired that God can manipulate to do His will? Who knows, that's just how it's done to get people interested and move them along to the eventual goal

[@J.Street.48]

Honestly i believe smith had a seer stone but i do not believe he used it. You can only find one person saying he used it which was whitmer. Everyone else who was there never said he did.

[@footspike55]

Dude if every single aspect of your religions origin story has obvious problems, is it possible it just isn't true

[@Metallographer_1]

BoM 1: 17 "But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life." 2: 4 "And it came to pass that he departed into the wilderness. And he left his house, and the land of his inheritance, and his gold, and his silver, and his precious things, and took nothing with him, save it were his family, and provisions, and tents, and departed into the wilderness." Good choice, he wouldn't want to be carrying heavy items made of metal around with him while walking through the Negev Desert.

[@user-mk2jh1nq8w]

Can I have glasses like the urim

[@joshstucki4349]

For the sake of argument, let's say your right about the plates and also the seer stone. Why did the seer stone need to be in a hat? Every explanation I have heard/read says it was necessary to block out light so Joseph could see what the stone was displaying. I'm certain if God was involved He could have made the words/inscriptions plenty bright to see without a hat. We all have smartphones that can work outside on a sunny day. As a believer in God (but not Mormonism), I have no reason to believe that God would give revelation in modern times through plates, rock/hat, or even the Urim/Thummin, assuming their authenticity: We are never told the mechanism by which the Urim and Thummin in the Bible were used to determine God's will; all guesses are assumptions, not fact. There is also only seven verses where they appear in the entire Bible, all Old Testament, over about a ~1100 year period. This is only one mention every 150 years or so. We know so little it's fallacious to claim their actual function or that how Joseph Smith used them (assuming they really were the Urim and Thummin) was legitimate.

[@macadameane]

God works in mysterious ways, and it is evident in the Bible. There are numerous times when God did something one way, when another way should have been possible or more convenient. We don't know all those reasons.

[@forzion1894]

The Jaredite/Nephite interpreters were not the "Urim and Thummim" described in the Bible. For a description of how they were used to translate the Book of Mormon see the new book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration."

[@Jjj53214]

The gold plates served as a fictional metaphor, just like the metaphorical fictional historical setting that formed the backdrop through which the revelations were conveyed. Historicity is not necessary.

[@woodystube1000]

I absolutely love these videos. I am astounded with how much time, money and energy the church and its surrogates spend on explaining away the mountains of evidence that show Smith was a fraud, simply because the internet has made historical information readily available and people are asking hard questions. Whoever produces these videos are masters of the “look over there” style of information control. I truly look forward to watching each video to see how that particular piece of damaging information is superficially explained away with “we just don’t know why, but he was a prophet so accept it”. Please keep these going. They are more entertaining than TV these days.

[@sbladbyu]

Here is my testimony of the Book of Mormon: Nothing is greater than a personal confirmation to your soul that something is true than through the power of the Holy Spirit. Every other sense can be deceived but the surest witness is communication directly from our Heavenly Father to our individual Spirits. It has to be this way. Otherwise, people who do not have the intellectual capacity to analytically “discover” the truths through facts would be greatly disadvantaged and led astray. My personal experience, is as follows: I had a powerful, undeniable personal spiritual experience while reading the Book of Mormon that surpassed everything I had experienced before or since. It was a powerful, transcendent, beautiful, undeniable physical sensation that passed through my whole body and left me with peace, love, light, and profound joy. It let me know that God is very real and approachable. It changed my life dramatically. I can’t deny what I experienced that evening. The Spirit of the Lord communicated directly with my individual spirit to testify of the truthfulness of that book. Everything about that experience brought me closer to Christ and allowed me to experience God’s love in a very personal and sacred way.

[@MormonWinessesofJesusChrist]

This is the problem with the seer stone theory-- Joseph and Oliver both testified that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God with the interpreters (Urim and Thummim) that God painstakingly preserved with the plates for over 1,500 years for the very purpose of giving prophets the ability to translate ancient records. It is a false narrative. He didn't translate the book of Mormon with a seer stone. The Lord made that known in the D&C when Oliver tried to translate simply by taking no thought save it was to ask. God told him that he must study the characters out in his mind first, then ask if his translation is right, and then wait for an answer to confirm. If Joseph and Oliver were told that they had to study out in their mind the words on the plates and than ask God if their translation was correct, how could Joseph or anybody then go and just look in a hat to have the words of the Book of Mormon PLATES to just magically appear without any need for the plates??? God doesn't work that way, as he plainly illustrated in the book of Mormon and in the D&C. Why in the world would there be a need for the Nephites to painstakingly, and at great sacrifice, "keep and preserve" those records AND the interpreters for 1,500 years if all Joseph needed was a stone in a hat??? If all Joseph was doing was reading from a stone and dictating to Oliver, the 529 pages could have been written in about two weeks. It not only make no sense, but is contrary to what God has revealed in relation to translation.

[@MrArtist7777]

Joseph did look at the plates through the Nephite-provided seer stones, exactly as he said he did. He held a hat up, at times, to block the sunlight but didn’t put his face in a hat nor did he use the brown rock, that’s false. The only people who said he used the brown rock had long since left the church and gave many unreliable statements. Joseph and Oliver both testified he used the clear seer stones and looked at the plates, I would only rely on their testimonies.

[@ManInThePandaMask]

You live in a fantasy world.

[@adamholloway7963]

Your position runs counter to the LDS Church's current official position. The Church acknowledged that JS used the brown seer stone in a hat in the Q15 approved Gospel Topics Essays.

[@MrArtist7777]

@@ManInThePandaMask Because I speak the truth?

[@MrArtist7777]

@@adamholloway7963 Not true and the church's official positions on many things have changed over time, remember polygamy and blacks banned from the priesthood? Those were official positions and have been changed. I go by the actual eye-witnesses of the translation of the plates: Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@MrArtist7777 You said, “Not true…” Yes, it is true. The Church acknowledged that JS used the brown seer stone in a hat in the Q15 approved Gospel Topics Essays: Book of Mormon Translation. The essay specifically says that Joseph “pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.” Look it up for yourself. You said, “...and the church's official positions on many things have changed over time, remember polygamy and blacks banned from the priesthood? Those were official positions and have been changed.” Yes, I do remember those changes. The LDS church claims that God, being omniscient and omnipotent, is leading the church via continuous revelation through His living Apostles and Prophets, who then reveal God’s will and mind to the church members. Church leaders have testified to church members that they will always teach the truth, that they cannot lead members astray, that God would not allow them to lead members astray, and that God would remove them from their position of influence to prevent them from leading members astray. Despite all these promises, there is a clear historical pattern, which you pointed out in your reply to me, of the LDS church taking a firm position on a belief/claim/doctrine, etc, stubbornly continuing to claim that it is true despite growing evidence and stronger arguments to the contrary, and then eventually, after decades or even 170+ years later, altering or abandoning their position about the belief/claim/doctrine once the evidence disproving their claim becomes irrefutable and their previous position untenable. The church has officially changed its long standing positions on many things including: Journal of Discourses being an official publication of the LDS Church and a reliable resource for LDS teachings and LDS doctrine, translation of the Book of Mormon, translation of the Book of Abraham, authenticity of the Kinderhook Plates, Native Americans being the principal ancestors of BoM Lamanites, African Americans having dark skin because they inherited the curse from Cain, darker skin color being an indicator of unrighteousness and lighter skin color being an indicator of righteousness, dark skin being a “curse” and/or sign of a curse, African Americans being denied the priesthood and other gospel blessings for having been less valiant in the preexistence, that African Americans would not receive the priesthood until all of Adam's other children received it, that African Americans are inferior to cacasians intellectually, socially, and spiritually, that cacasians should not marry African Americans, that people born with disabilities were less valiant in the preexistence, the Americas were uninhabited from the time of Noah’s flood and the “Jaredites came first” and populated the land, blood atonement doctrine, Adam-God theory, polygamy required to receive exaltation, Joseph Smith’s treasure/money digging past and use of a seer stone, Joseph Smith being arrested and convicted, Joseph Smith’s plural wives, the geography of the BoM, location of the Hill Cumorah and other previously identified BoM locations, origins of the temple ceremonies, origins of the temple garments, Nephite coins, that the eternal sealing received by faithful parents would secure the salvation of their children even if their children were rebellious and/or wayward, that Heavenly Father’s love for us is unconditional, the Catholic church being the church of the devil, that Jesus Christ was born on 6 April, etc. Based on surrounding historical circumstances during these changes, the changes in belief/doctrine seem more like reactive behavior to social pressure and/or stronger contradictory evidence established over time than proactive leadership by an omniscient God via continuous revelation through His living Apostles and Prophets as claimed by the LDS church. You said, “I go by the actual eye-witnesses of the translation of the plates: Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.” Please provide the quotes from Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery that explicitly state that , “Joseph did look at the plates through the Nephite-provided seer stones, exactly as he said he did.” I would love to see those quotes. :)

[@mariusmarius4832]

Interesting that you said gold coloured metal plates and not pure gold plates as stated by the witnesses as well as in Mormon literature. You know when Smith was supposed to have dug it up he jumped with it over a log, fought off 3 assailants who all hit him with a gun at different incidents and damaged his thumb while fighting them off but still managed to run at full speed for 3 miles even though he had a limp since he was a little child and used a cane for walking all his life, all while running with the weight of golden plates which if looking at thier documented size, if gold not even a fit strong young guy would be able to lift let alone run 3 miles with. Look all of this up, its all on record... Get real..

[@brettmajeske3525]

You are incorrect, no witnesses made the claim of pure gold. Mostly they used phrases like "with the appearance of gold", or "golden" which has the same meaning. Whitmer was the most explicit, claiming that they "looked like gold" but that he was not an expert enough to determine if they were "indeed gold". You even use the phrase "golden" yourself, which means something is simular in appearance. A gold alloy would still be "golden" even if not pure gold.

[@douglasbrinkman5937]

Where are these plates for all to examine?

[@h.w.barlow6693]

19th century Scientology.😂

[@GarySaint-xm6tr]

Professor Anthon read charachters copied from the plates. Joseph Smith was obviously copying the characters and then translating them

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Where are the plates, why didn't Joseph make his magic and make them appear again so we could all see them again. Maybe he had another trick up his sleeve.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

If the plates were sitting before us now, we'd all be engaged in arguing over the translation, instead of reading the text. How many non-members have bothered to read the Pearl of Great Price? How many remain consumed in a surviving scroll fragment?

[@MerkieAE]

this is such a spectacle for me. if the church made posters and magazine covers of smith looking into a hat rather than carefully translating the golden plates in front of him line by line, it would be a joke! it’s akin to a cheap magic trick from the 1830s, something smith would’ve likely done as he did folk magic before he started on the book of mormon. all throughout my years in the church i was fed the narrative that he literally used the plates to translate the BoM, the hat thing was an “anti-mormon lie”. i’m so glad that they’re forced to reveal the truth about the translation process, i hate liars.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@wes2176 Good question. It could have come the same way "The Principles of Nature" came in 1847. Joseph Smith produced the BoM in 1829. Andrew Jackson Davis, another early American “prophet and a seer”, produced The Principles of Nature in 1847. There are many similarities between Joseph Smith and Andrew Jackson Davis. A few similarities include: Andrew, like Joseph, was a practitioner of folk magic. Andrew was 20 years old when he dictated The Principles of Nature, only had five months of formal education, produced it in about 78.5 working days, the work contained about 320,000 words, and many of his readers treated the book as new scripture. Andrew was blindfolded during the dictation process, did not refer to any notes, books, or manuscripts during the sessions, would begin the session immediately where he left off before, dictated the majority of his work one phrase at a time pausing after each phrase and waiting for the operator or scribe to repeat each line back to him to make sure what he dictated was received and written down correctly, would spell out unfamiliar words, and included chiasmus. How would you account for where "The Principles of Nature" came from? There-in may lie the answer to your own question.

[@Sunshine-eo2sp]

@@Youknowitsmeman You have to explain how he had access to those books. View of the Hebrews was published in vermont when Joseph was living in New York and New York did not have a public library until 1884. The late war was published in new york, and it does have the correct time period, but there is no evidence that Joseph even knew about the books existence. If Lucy Mack Smiths autobiography said something about "he had a fascination with amercian history", then you'd have a basis, but it doesn't say that. All of Josephs contemporaries were unanimous that his literacy and writing skills were below average, and his journal isn't anything impressive, it reads like a farm boy. Not a secretly gifted author.

[@Sunshine-eo2sp]

​@@Youknowitsmeman ​ @B 0110 There was never a time when they were in separate rooms. Emma said "he'd dictate hour after hour with nothing between us". Martin Harris also substituted the rock with a different one, to which Joseph sat down to continue and he said "all is as dark as egypt". Martin said he switch the rock because he thought he might have been being tricked, but after testing the rock he knew that the seer stone was for real. If Joseph had just memorized the book or was reading from a pre-written manuscript, would you really notice your rock is different? Emma even said "if he had anything of the kind (referring to a pre-written manuscript of the book of mormon) he could not have concealed it from me.". Not to mention if he did have it already written down, why get a scribe? Show up at the printing press and just say "Hey guys! Look at what God told me to write!", someone would've paid for it. Thats a whole lot of pageantry just to pull it off. Emma even said he couldn't write a well worded letter, let alone write something like the Book of Mormon. There is no evidence that Joseph knew of the late wars existence. Chris Johnson, Duane Johnson, in "A Comparison of The Book of Mormon and The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain," propose a number of parallel sentence structures between Gilbert Hunt's book The Late War and the Book of Mormon. The authors conclude that Joseph Smith read Hunt's book while in school (without any actual evidence that Joseph ever actually saw the book). They base this conclusion upon the assumption that the book was widely available, and therefore Joseph must have read it. Hence, they conclude that Joseph constructed the Book of Mormon by using structural elements of The Late War. The evidence is presented as a series of comparisons between the Book of Mormon and The Late War. To give you an idea of how non-consequential the parallels between the late war and the book of mormon are, 75 of the parallels are from the copyright pages. Those would line up in any 19th century book pubished in new york. There is more in common between the late war and the bible. Its like saying Harry Potter plagiarized Star wars because Harry is the chosen one and so was Anakin. Even if he did know the late war existed, how the heck do you jump from "yeah I read this book in 7th grade" to "at 21 I orally dictated 531 pages printed and 116 lost pages in front of multiple witnesses and just ad-libbed it/ memorized the whole thing"? It sounds like you want a reason to leave, and are using a bad understanding of Church history as your scapegoat. Given the fact that you already admitted your new to this and just recently started studying church history, do yourself a favor and ask for sources. I'll give you mine to start the trend: Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon, edited by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch, (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2002), Chapter 12 Emma Smith Bidamon Interview with Joseph Smith III, February 1879, cited in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1. p. 541

[@Sunshine-eo2sp]

@@wes2176 ok bro I'm all for taking out anti and answering hard questions but calling someone lame and a faker ain't doing us any favors. If this guy had a history and I recognized the name and he just came thru every time to argue then yeah we can call him on bs, but he hasn't. He's had 5 comments on all of saints unscripted. I love the passion, just not the execution of the passion.

[@MerkieAE]

@@wes2176 Why is that the only alternative? Why couldn't the scribes helped him write the book? There's also other books that Smith could've likely had access to at the time that have very similar themes to the BoM. Also the idea that the native Americans were Jewish was pretty common for the time, as well as the Protistant ideals he was teaching. There's also been thousands of edits to the Book of Mormon since it's first edition in 1830. There's been a total of seven, yes seven major editions and thousands of edits to the text. The Book of Mormon you read is nothing close to the original one produced in 1830. There's major differences in the theologies, grammar, and pacing. I own a reprint of the original first edition Book of Mormon and having read both the first and seventh edition I can testify that one sounds like the bad writings of a dude from the 1800s and one sounds like a professionally refined, tuned, and edited work of Biblical Apocrypha. This narrative the church paints of either the book being inspired or JS doing it all from memory is called a false dichotomy fallacy, because there are other options. Really think, do you think a group of people in the 1830s could've produced a poorly worded version of the BoM in some way? I'd say yes, 1000%, especially considering that authors like Shakespere were producing arguably more complex work than Smith centuries before him.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Easy question. To show that there were actual ancient people in the Americas who followed God and saw Jesus Christ. The witnesses saw and held them to show they were/are real, and God really preserved them. And also to prepare us for future records that are promised to come forth from the other lost Tribes of Israel.

[@danlopez.3592]

What??

[@user-gs7lv2ng1m]

I don’t believe in the religion because there’s too much contradicting the whole restoration story, but I love the stories in The Book of Mormon

[@charlemagnetheFranks]

Technically I can't believe a 22 year old could makeup so much. Imagine if Joseph Smith didn't get killed. Why do I believe?

[@catherinecooper8370]

@@charlemagnetheFranks I'm not arguing for or against based on whst someone says they saw or did. But your comment about a 22 year old making stuff up threw me. So people cannot lie about extreme events? I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just saying that justification is weak. People of all ages can lie about whatever for whatever reasons.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

Judge the Book of Mormon by it's content and nothing else. Nothing else really matters. It's all about the message and not the messenger.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@james8996 That would be my guess too, except Joseph always dictated words, while others wrote them (Joseph could barely read and write when he was 22.) Joseph's scribes claimed he never had a Bible on hand, nor any study notes or papers either. And there were 11 (official) witnesses besides Joseph Smith, who both saw and handled the plates and at least 3 unofficial witnesses. I'm unfamiliar with any of the words of Paul within the Book of Mormon. Joseph however, never claimed the translation of the Book of Mormon was any kind of scientific or literal one. but received entirely by "the gift and power of God." The process required no more than 2 months. It's not so easy to dismiss as you're suggesting.

[@danlopez.3592]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 if it was a book for entertainment you’d be correct.

[@coryhorton5837]

Or or or…he made it all up. *click*

[@picardjl579]

I don't believe a single syllable coming out of this Mormon"s mouth nor even understand the arguement, but nevertheless feel complelled to watch his videos-weird huh??

[@seans5289]

If you consider the plates evidence that the Book of Mormon account is true, but believe that the plates existed because of witness testimony, do you consider witness testimony to be as convincing as the physical plates? If not, would you prefer the physical evidence?

[@seans5289]

@@wes2176: you seem upset

[@deweygooderson3666]

Why is this dichotomous? I believe the testimony of both the 3 and 8 witnesses is a powerful evidence of physical plates and divinely inspired translation. I would also consider the physical plates to be a powerful evidence of the truth of the church and the divinity of the Book of Mormon if we had them. If you are hinting that the absence of the plates are potentially evidence of fraud, you certainly wouldn't be the first to suggest it. But there could be a reasonable, divinely inspired rationale for the absence of the plates now (like the way they might get abused, altered, or distract from the message and become more about the artifact itself, or even be too strong an evidence and frustrate God's plan for our agency), so I suppose you have to weigh the evidence of their actual existence and their divine nature against the evidence of their fraudulent nature. For me the evidence points strongly to their actual existence and divine nature, and one of the many evidences is the testimony of the 3 and 8 witnesses.

[@catherinecooper8370]

@@wes2176 that is a nasty thing to say to someone. Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

[@catherinecooper8370]

@@deweygooderson3666 thank you for responding to the original commenter comment with poise and respect. That is so lacking in this day and age.

[@catherinecooper8370]

@@wes2176 "I mean, do you really think someone is going to waste brain power on it?" I mean, you just did by chosing to respond to it, so why make that hypocritical statement?

[@pam1537]

It’s so cute how the LDS can change doctrine at the drop of a hat.

[@atheistapostate7019]

Wow, this whole episode was nothing more than pure speculation.... Just wow lol

[@DW-ko4pd]

@Atheist Wow, lol you explain it then.

[@atheistapostate7019]

@@DW-ko4pd it takes a lot more than a few minutes to explain, and we do have a lot of statements on how Smith did it. One, the plates were in the woods the WHOLE time Smith and Cowdery composed the BoM, never in front of them. Two the Hyrum Smith quote was misused. Joseph told Hyrum NOT to tell people how the BoM was “translated”, this episode leaves out the whole quote. Three, the Seer Stone was solely “used” for the BoM MINUS the claimed 116 pages, which was claimed to be done with the Urim and Thummim. We have Cowdery, David Whitner and Martin Harris all state so, two being Smith’s scribes. I can keep going on and on and on

[@josemama428]

This is no more crazy than what secular cults believe in

[@d4746385]

Goldplates never existed. The claims don’t stand up to scrutiny at all. it’s a disappointing lie

[@anamariamorton726]

The plates were seen by witnesses with their SPIRITUAL eyes!

[@Mega-Tim]

Keep talking to yourself

[@patricianoel7782]

Gold plates weighed 200 pounds.

[@Herosoulstone]

There's an episode on this 😊

[@adamholloway7963]

I believe the consensus is that the plates weighed about 50 lbs. Still, it would be difficult to carry 50 lbs under one arm while running through the woods for 2-3 miles fending off 3 different attacks by different attackers, each with a gun, and somehow not get caught, captured, relieved of the ~50 lbs plates, or shot and killed. Amazing feat! It must have been miraculous!

[@adamholloway7963]

@@wes2176 No doubt the water would have weighed more than 50 lbs. Great job pointing that out! Now, what verifiable evidence do you have that proves that the Red Sea was actually parted by God? Probably none. But hey, believe what you want. I will continue to base my beliefs on evidence, not stories.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@wes2176 I am here because KZbin is a free community to view content, comment on content, and exchange ideas with others via comments. Why are you here?

[@adamholloway7963]

@@wes2176 You said, " The evidence used to be that the earth was flat. The evidence used to be that the Milky Way galaxy was all the universe entailed. The evidence used to be a lot of things." Great examples of past beliefs that are now disproved. And, when were those things believed? The answer is back in history when Religion played a significant role in the scientific conclusions of the day. And, we now know that those things are not true. Not because Religion determined that they were not true by revelation from God, but because science challenged the religious beliefs of the past and was able to prove, based on verifiable evidence, that those were incorrect beliefs of the past.

[@bubba7665]

I read the book 3 times. I know it came from God.

[@Laughwithmelol]

It’s called there were no plates there he couldn’t replicate the books with the test.

[@jgoldensshadow]

This entire video is, again, ignoring Joseph and Oliver's statements regarding the translation, along with what is in the D&C. The Lord told Joseph to translate as he had before prior to getting the plates and the U&T back. The origins of the single river stone in a hat come from untrustworthy sources.

[@adamholloway7963]

The importance of the truthfulness of the BoM- “Take away the Book of Mormon, and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none.” (Joseph Smith, Minute Book 1, p. 44) “There are three ways in which the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. It is the keystone in our witness of Christ. It is the keystone of our doctrine. It is the keystone of [our] testimony... Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.” (Ezra Taft Benson, The Book of Mormon - Keystone of Our Religion, Ensign, Oct 1986) “This book [Book of Mormon] must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair...If, after a rigid examination, it [Book of Mormon] be found an imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments upon which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of the deception, and be reclaimed, - and that those who continue to publish the delusion, may be exposed and silenced, not by physical force, neither by persecutions, bare assertions, nor ridicule, but by strong and powerful arguments - by evidences adduced from scripture and reason. Such, and such only, should be the weapons employed to detect and overthrow false doctrines - to reclaim mankind from their errors - to expose religious enthusiasm - and to put to silence base and wicked impostors.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.1) “The Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon constitutes our most important consideration of the work. This subject is one of vital interest to every earnest investigator of the ways of God, to every sincere searcher after truth. Claiming to be, as far as the present dispensation is concerned, a new scripture, presenting prophecies and revelations not heretofore recognized in modern theology, announcing to the world the message of a departed people, written by way of commandment, and by the spirit of prophecy and revelation-this volume is entitled to the most thorough and impartial examination. Nay, more, not alone does the Book of Mormon merit such consideration, it claims, even demands the same” (James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p 281) “I am willing to repeat my statement that the Book of Mormon must submit to every test, literary criticism with the rest. Indeed, it must submit to every analysis and examination. It must submit to historical tests, to the tests of archaeological research and also to the higher criticism...The book is flung down into the world's mass of literature, and here it is; we proclaim it true, and the world has the right to test it to the uttermost in every possible way.” (B. H. Roberts, Higher Criticism and the Book of Mormon, Improvement Era, June 1911, p. 667) “It is not necessary for me to suggest that the maintenance of the truth of the Book of Mormon is absolutely essential to the integrity of the whole Mormon movement, for it is inconceivable that the Book of Mormon should be untrue in its origin or character and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be a true Church.” (B. H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p. 58) “If the origin of the Book of Mormon could be proved to be other than that set forth by Joseph Smith; if the book itself could be proved to be other than it claims to be…then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and its message and doctrines…must fall; for if that book is other than it claims to be; if its origin is other than that ascribed to it by Joseph Smith, then Joseph Smith says that which is untrue; he is a false prophet of false prophets; and all he taught and all his claims to inspiration and divine authority, are not only vain but wicked; and all that he did as a religious teacher is not only useless, but mischievous beyond human comprehending. …Those who accept the Book of Mormon for what it claims to be, may not so state their case that its security chiefly rests on the inability of its opponents to prove a negative. The affirmative side of the question belongs to us who hold out the Book of Mormon to the world as a revelation of God. The burden of proof rests upon us in every discussion…for not only must the Book of Mormon not be proved to have other origin that that which we set forth, or be other than what we say it is, but we must prove its origin to be what we say it is, and the book itself to be what we proclaim it to be-a revelation from God…To be known, the truth must be stated and the clearer and more complete the statement is, the better opportunity will the Holy Spirit have for testifying to the souls of men that the work is true.” (B.H. Roberts, New Witness for God, 2 (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1909), iii-vii. Emphasis in original, as quoted in The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922 by Shannon Caldwell Montez, December 2019, p. 11-12) “The title of my talk today is The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given? Because the Book of Mormon is ‘the keystone of our religion’ as described by Joseph Smith, the church rises or falls on the truth of it. As a result, if the Book of Mormon can be proven to be man-made, then the church is man-made…It is that simple.” (Tad R. Callister, The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?, November 2016) “Not everything in life is so black and white, but it seems the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our belief is exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God-or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those…I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take-morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.” (Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, True or False, New Era, June 1995) “The most singular evidence in support of Joseph Smith’s claim to being a spokesman for Almighty God was the publication of a scriptural record, the Book of Mormon…The Book of Mormon is a record of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent and records the visit and ministry of Jesus Christ to the people on this continent following His ascension at Jerusalem…Joseph Smith obtained this ancient record from a heavenly messenger, just as John prophesied. This angel appeared to him and revealed the location of ancient records which were inscribed on metallic plates and buried in a stone vault. In due time, the young prophet was given the plates and the means by which they were translated. The book was then published to the world as canonized scripture…We invite you to test the validity of our witness about the origin of the Book of Mormon.” (President Ezra Taft Benson, Joseph Smith: Prophet to Our Generation, General Conference, October 1981 & Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Ezra Taft Benson, Chapter 7: Joseph Smith, an Instrument in the Hands of the Lord) “...everything in the Church - everything - rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth...It sounds like a 'sudden death' proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.” (Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, True or False, New Era, June 1995) “If [Joseph Smith’s] claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect.” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.116)

[@keithsmith5998]

The hat is not how it happened.

[@Spirit_to_seek]

Even the church acknowledges it did. Your denial doesn't make the truth go away.

[@danlopez.3592]

Wow. Do people really believe this nonsense?

[@Spirit_to_seek]

Unfortunately they do. Just read the comments. It's sad.

[@MrRickb75645]

Yes I do. I've prayed a lot . And have had my prayers answered. And I have had a prayer answered in such away, I know our father in heaven does exist. It would take to long to explain it.

[@danlopez.3592]

@@MrRickb75645 I don’t know what gods you are praying to but would you agree that there are those who believe that their prayers are answered and they are calling to all different gods.

[@jdawg3677]

I wish the q15 clarify topics like this. Exmormon podcasters has more content than the church does on this topic and many controversial topics. Saints unscripted isn’t even owned by the church so the church might have a completely different stance on this. It would be helpful to hear this information from the q15 since they are special witnesses of Christ.

[@MrTikalvideo]

CELESTIAL TECHNOLOGY!!! The stone and the Urim & Thummim and the plates on the side...some way of communication that we trying to compare with our present technology. Lets be patient we will someday understand.

[@xarchosakaiki8342]

“when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins, I therefore three weeks since in the Stone Chapel gave a full history of the church since I became acquainted with it, the false preaching & prophecying etc of Joseph together with the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon with the whole scene of lying and deception practiced by J. S & S. R in this church, believing as I verily do, that it is all a wicked deception palmed upon us unawares I was followed by W. Parish [Warren Parrish] Luke Johnson & John [F.] Boynton all of who concurred with me, after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of air but should have let it passed as it was” www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/69

[@brettmajeske3525]

And Martin Harris later said that he was being misquoted and/or misunderstood. He repeated many times, to friends and family members that he did see the plates with physical eyes and anyone who claimed he did not was mistaken.

[@xarchosakaiki8342]

“Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates. In the first place, he told me of this stone, and proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him-I said, 'Take your stone.' I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat-the old white hat-and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.” From Martin Harris interview with Joel Tiffany Aug 1859 Was he misquoted about the seer stone as the means of finding the plates too?

[@scottbrandon6244]

Total gaslighting in this segment.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Hocus Pocus. Great story but Tolkien is a much better author of fantasy

[@theriveroffaith852]

For God will not hold back anything from those who keep His commandments. Please read the Sealed Book (2nd part of the gold plates) translated by the power of God through His Prophet Mauricio in these last days and blessed be the name of the Lord.

[@germanslice]

If the sealed portion of the plates is going to be read, then it will be translated by a prophet of God in the church who will be appointed by God to translate it. Not by some man down the road. If God has any secret to reveal like translating the sealed portion, then it will be revealed to his servants the prophets who are ordained as Seers and Revelators and Prophets in the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints..

[@theriveroffaith852]

@@germanslice Mauricio was appointed by God to translate the records. I don't understand what you're saying. God will not hold anything back from those who keep His commandments for these are they who love Him.

[@germanslice]

@@theriveroffaith852 Is this person a member of the Church? and how was he appointed to this power?

[@theriveroffaith852]

@@germanslice Yes, Mauricio is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. God called him to prepare himself for 10 years, and he received the golden plates and the bands of the sealed portion were loosed and he was also given the Urim and Thummim and was given the power to translate the next part of the record. Holy is the Lord.

[@germanslice]

@@theriveroffaith852 He has to go through the First Presidency of the Church before he can do anything. .

[@orangemanbad]

Hate to say it, but this explanation is just a way of saying you know the story can’t be real but don’t want to accept it.

[@newhere2419]

Yes the existence of the plates prove the historicity, but the problem is there aren't any plates. There are scriptures that have been found all over the place, like the Dead Sea Scrolls the church likes to point at. God never took any of them away , they were all just left and were found.

[@newhere2419]

@@wes2176 You don't know what i'm talking about. Are you familiar with church history? The Plates were taken away by an angel, supposedly. No one took away the dead sea scrolls. The weren't taken away or discarded, or accidentally destroyed. We've been told the plates were taken away so someone wouldn't profit off them. Joseph Smith literally tried to sell the BOM for profit and couldn't.

[@newhere2419]

@@wes2176 Did God take them away? You don't want to face the question, you want to play whatabout

[@newhere2419]

@@wes2176 You're free to believe what you will. No one questions the existence of ancient Israel. There isn't much evidence at all of the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations. The actual plates would solve that. I've never heard anyone say the Ark was taken away by God, rather it was stolen or hidden by men.

[@tyleranspach6653]

Good lord.

[@claudioortiz5830]

You won't be able to keep lying to yourself much longer man.