Explaining Cloud's Colossal Hitboxes (Smash Ultimate)

For the first time we are actually going to be revisiting a character I have already looked at in the smash 4 days. Today we will be looking at cloud again, and see how he has changed between smash 4 and ultimate!
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[@ASA-ux7cg]

At least he doesn’t have an u-air that combos into literally everything with a hitbox way bigger than the actual sword that lasts for a year anymore

[@Yunobolt]

And also kills

[@greedo194]

@@Yunobolt and scoops up grounded opponents

[@bobcat_named_bob]

and low profiles

[@cha_michaelmf_1504]

Hot take: Sm4sh Cloud up-air on Ultimate Cloud should be allowed.

[@bobcat_named_bob]

@@cha_michaelmf_1504 you are wrong but thanks for sharing

[@grfrjiglstan]

3:04 The yellow hitbox is for his spiky hair, which is nearly as lethal as his sword.

[@mrbister8714]

I think you were a bit harsh judging Cloud’s up air. While it’s FAR off from what it was in 4, saying “you’re better off using another option to pressure in the air” isn’t completely true; it’s a long lasting juggling move with a really notable disjoint. The move definitely is still really good, just not the warcrime it was in 4.

[@thecursed_1lordofcats738]

I miss that warcrime. It was fun.

[@LARAUJO_0]

@@thecursed_1lordofcats738 This guy right here officer

[@GameStrikerX2]

I think the Disjoint isn't actually too special, I actually often trade with people using up air now, it's much easier to challenge, which is fine, but maybe it's too easily challengable

[@mrbister8714]

@@GameStrikerX2 Technically speaking the gap isn’t the biggest gap in the world, but what I mean by a prominent disjoint is that it’s there the entire move, and the move lasts an eternity. This means that for a lot of landing brawler moves, you can at the very least guarantee that the move WILL hit, even if it does trade. As a Cloud player myself, I do get it getting beat out from time to time, but I’ve also had it beat out lots and lots of landing Brawler hitboxes purely because of how long it lasts. And its hitboxes are the exact same from 4, so anything it loses to in Ultimate it would have lost to in 4. Definitely should have used different wording than “prominent” when describing the disjoint tho

[@GameStrikerX2]

@@mrbister8714 the move actually had it's hitbox sizes reduced by about 10% (somewhere around there) not a huge difference but enough to make it easier to trade with. It's definitely not the worst thing in the world, but you definitely trade more in Ult than in Smash 4. The biggest nerfs for me was the auto cancel window on delayed Down Air and the active frame nerf on the Up Air, at the very least they could have changed the Up Air animation to match the active frame change but they didn't lol. Oh yeah and it would have been nice if they made the Nair hitbox cover the tip of the sword

[@TheLobsterCopter5000]

Fun fact: the hitbox visuals for up smash lag behind by almost an entire frame due to hitbox visuals not being able to properly emulate frame speed modifiers. Because of this, in-game up smash actually covers above Cloud a frame earlier than it does in the visual, and reaches further below and behind him on its last active frame than it does in the visual (you can easily see this versus Mario: if the hitbox visual was accurate, the hitbox would cut off a frame before the sword is low enough to hit grounded Mario from behind, but in game it DOES extend to this frame and can hit Mario on the ground).

[@AshenDemon]

I love disrespecting and teabagging people online.

[@lobster6736]

tube

[@maxpropaganda230]

Well, since you opened the can of worms that is comparing Ult characters to their smash 4 counterparts, I think the obvious next step is to cover Bayonetta, if you haven’t done so already in this series. I can’t think of any other character changed more than her even from the demo that was ran before the game released.

[@tiffyw92]

"The trademarked Final Fantasy slide" really got me for some reason. Like FF7 wasn't even the first FF to show an FF protagonist sliding down anywhere, but it was the first FF to do it in 3D and wasn't just a reused sprite asset that moved on a screen. And to think these days, it really be in just about anything that Nomura touches.

[@bredfigure2902]

Annoying move. Hurt box shifts his body too low.

[@TheLemonyBard]

The Rekzius paradox: where Cloud’s nair is “the hardest nerf out of all of these aerials,” yet his upair is “the single most nerfed move he has.”

[@callmefleet]

Was up-air really used as an aerial in Sm4sh? Was he just capping? The world may never know.

[@TheLemonyBard]

@@callmefleet nah that part’s true, that move got abused in Sm4sh lol

[@lasercraft32]

Everyone always says "oh, Clouds hitboxes are so HUGE! They're way bigger than his sword, it's so insane!" but if you have a general understanding of how video games like this actually work, it makes complete sense. :) When viewing the hitboxes this way, it doesn't show the attack effects, making it look disproportionately larger than compared to if you saw the effects alongside it. The extra hitboxes on their bodies and the free floating ones are to make sure the move actually lands properly the way it looks like it should, and the reason they are bigger than the sword most of the time is for the same reason. It takes into account movement as well. Smash is a 3d game, but it's played in a 2d playstyle. So making the hitboxes a little bigger ensures it works as intended. I have some experience modding Smash Bros. (albeit way back in Brawl, but it's the same principle) and I know sometimes you need to add extra hitboxes to get it to work as intended. I also know that almost every attack in the game has bigger hitboxes than what they look like they would have, it's true for every character. (Please note that this is not an angry comment, it's purpose is to maybe inform or shed light on _why_ the hitboxes are often the way they are).

[@mrkisukes]

And despite all those nerfs from Sm4sh, he's still very meta.

[@ShinyMew76]

I’m exited to see you cover falcon’s horrendously big upsmash hitbox

[@MetroidsEATYou]

One of the first things I did upon unlocking Cloud in Ultimate was check his up air. A major sigh of relief was made that day! I hated that move in 4.

[@blockednostril9739]

Clouds still silly, but now everyone’s silly so it works

[@lightningquiz7924]

It’s really cool and interesting to see the changes. I think Cloud is still very relevant, but not the potentially ban worthy character he was before. Overall a good analysis (finally some blade beam hitboxes!)

[@SeriousStriker]

I mean obviously Cloud is meta relevant, otherwise Sparg0 wouldn't have won 3 majors with him already.

[@grfrjiglstan]

I really appreciate the comparisons between 4Cloud and UCloud. It feels like a macro version of your old patch comparisons, where you can see how the design philosophy changed from game to game. I know you said you probably wouldn't do this often, but I think it's an excellent addition.

[@LEAF265]

Limit cross-slashes final hitbix can actually reach a tiny bit below the ledge. I haven't done any testing, but I know it can hit DK(ofc) and pac-man

[@ngotemna8875]

Poor DK just can't catch a break lmao

[@HDGamerofficial]

Such a nice edition for looking at both sm4sh and ultimate’s clouds! Also the part where you said his hit box for down smash stole Dr Mario’s pill made me laugh quite hard 😂

[@proto_maver1ck]

I have never understood why some people suddenly started saying Could was "Bad" With these hitboxes plus his general statistics I'd say he's still REALLY good. Not the kind of 超パワー levels of good he used to have. but he's honestly a really reliable character who can do nearly everything decently well. I heard it a lot more when the game first released, mostly in regards to his N-air and U-air, but people have quieted down a lot now. Just a bad case of people making assumptions based on pre-release footage and how a single move performs.

[@c.w35t87]

They were mad because Smash4 Cloud did they breakfast and laundry with his aerials.

[@marioman1242]

Cloud's Catastrophic Hitboxes

[@marcelostringer]

I think the comparison between games is a neat idea, I would like seeing it again!

[@TheMonarchOfTetris]

I really liked the comparisons to smash4. Would love to see you do more in the future.

[@BloodClanL]

In Cloud's Finishing Touch down-b, the visuals for the hitbox have these weird long rectangular boxes that exist for a single frame - in the grounded version, it's behind him shortly after the third hitbox goes away, in the aerial version it's between the second and third hitboxes, above and to his front. Are these real hitboxes, or just a bug in the visualization?

[@DiegoG2004]

If I had to guess, those would be the windboxes after Cloud misses the move

[@woutervanham8246]

I notice in your videos sometimes that you say something along the lines of "the hitbox is bigger than his sword". While this is technically true, some characters with weapons (and even some without) have smears on their weapons, such as the effect that makes Cloud's sword green when attacking. This makes many hitboxes in real time look much more reasonable than when you look at them frame by frame.

[@brotatobantspotatolantis2769]

Never knew about clouds hitboxes, thank you for the great videos, keep it up!

[@spudsbuchlaw]

I loved this comparison! as a Ult Cloud main who despised him in 4, I liked a lot of these changes

[@thomasfan8889]

Just uploaded!? So awesome!! These are some of my favorite videos on KZbin. Made my day!

[@greenredmario]

14:17 is it also the first member of the dk crew? 🥴

[@MaxWelton]

If Metal Face ever visited The Planet, he’d get a kick out of calling Cloud “Blondie Buster Boy.”

[@koolkid4657]

I hope you do hitbox comparisons when doing meta knight

[@joebob6532]

Good video you should do more comparisons

[@thunderd7904]

11:09 what’s that tiny little hitbox right there?

[@bnc1430]

Video: casually explaining hitboxes Thumbnail: *wide cloud*

[@SonicTheCutehog]

*Insert Smash 4 Cloud Hitboxes Joke Here*

[@Atlasamsung]

Wake up babe, rek just uploaded

[@aidenzorn8322]

Hot take, nair didn’t need to be nerfed

[@greedo194]

Yes it did. It could have been nerfed less but it did everything in sm4sh

[@DemonTwink69]

Clouds grab is one of the worst non tether grabs in the game. “ usable “ is an overstatement

[@gameplaychannel3129]

“So cloud is fast and has a giant sword?”

[@randomobservers8734]

Cover bayo next with her changes from smash 4

[@epicgaming11195]

3:07 he said "fair" then cloud did f-air right after

[@theshadowspider97]

I hope he does this same thing for Bayo again!

[@velvetbutterfly]

I understand giving more weight to the votes of people who pay but I do wish you had a vote general viewers could participate in as well

[@susmane5482]

Apparently, Cloud also has Invul frames on Limit up B from frames 5-12

[@VarsVerum]

Cloud is high tier :3

[@justmiyalmao]

top tier*

[@methanebrain7375]

I kinda want to know what the limit blade beam hotboxes are when it hits a sheild or opponent

[@reactionlessssbu-clips2723]

What about the Hitbox of neutral B where it lands During limit breaker?

[@selassieaspen9940]

I only came for the up air.

[@Telos8]

Bowsers Beastly hitboxes when?

[@saphirepuma8244]

Does intangibility counter grabs as well as damage? Should I be using limit to callout grabs??

[@PomadaGaming]

Mkay

[@TemporaryRain]

My frustration when fighting Cloud comes from all his moves having basically having no end lag, especially online.

[@ngotemna8875]

This is how I feel when playing against Mythra. Cloud is as slow as Ganon compared to her.

[@dave9515]

Hot take: Smash 4 up air deserved to stay on cloud and his nair when ike and shulk have bigger nairs than cloud's smash 4 nair. Oh and limit deserved to be indefinite till it was used especially since the killing power of limit got overnerfed. But ultimate cloud is very different from smash 4 cloud in more ways than hitboxes. Gameplan is much more turtling and keep away in ultimate and aerial system for cloud works differently too.

[@Logan17258]

No. Clouds Nair is frame 5. Ike’s is frame 10, and Shulks is frame 13. Even if it’s bigger than clouds having a move that large being so fast and safe is disgusting. You also have to consider that Cloud is much faster than these characters (besides shulk speed art) which makes it more brutal to deal with. And idk why you would want his old up air back. I main cloud and I don’t want him having that shit for the games sanity. His up air is still a really good move as it is. And limit charges much faster in Ultimate, you only need to deal 150% vs 250% in smash 4, and 335 frames to fully charge instead of 400. So making it last forever while charging so much faster would be kinda dumb.

[@oscarfyksen2888]

What are the lines in the hitbox

[@dbgr9875]

We gon mention up b inconsistency?!

[@OldManHan]

My main! So many top players consider Cloud top tier now, and I’m glad to see he’s making his return.

[@leonardojulianamoresmedina7710]

Do Bayonetta, because she is totally nerfed but she still has the same hitboxes that you complained a lot in the last video of her xD

[@furret8456]

Up-tilt is literally just a normal swing And his Hair growing an oversized hitbox I mean he is a Hedgehog... Right?

[@robinrai4973]

Could you do Marth's?

[@untitled_unmastered]

10:36 Didn’t limit got buffed at some point ?? I believe it currently last 20 seconds and not 15 anymore

[@ngotemna8875]

Looked it up and it's still 15sec

[@tracythomas4700]

I understand why they did this , but limit being timed just feels weird for some reason.

[@Linkirby]

Bullshit MegaMan has trademarked his slide and these guys steal it!

[@emxmario]

in other word cloud had 2 moves nerfed and was copy-pasted from smash 4 and buffed everything else so that you can outo cancel faster those hitboxes are too danm big

[@vishalmenon4595]

Do Mac next

[@shadowraith10]

Pokemon trainer next please?

[@st4r64]

Could you do Jigglypuff?

[@N0AHVEGA]

As someone who hates cloud this was fun to watch

[@yophi8275]

Do kirby and compare them to smash 64 :3

[@JoelTheParrot]

hate this guy cloud, not rekzius, rekzius is cool

[@poke4074]

Inkling plz??????

[@bluepepperman]

do rosa

[@century3603]

Can you do Mega Man please.

[@selassieaspen9940]

Where's is fuckin up air?

[@darkness439]

Not bad for a failed experiment

[@karmelsans12]

Sup