explaining the “male fetish” in yaoi media

[@lesley7137]

Being a lesbian, I prefer yuri/ GL, but it’s difficult to get into it sometimes. You can definitely tell when it’s the fetishized by men. But the ones for lesbians by lesbians are not that readily available in English, the ones that talk about coming out, the ones that talk about being gay and not just ignoring that side of it. One of these GL/Yuri manga that really helped me come out and realized that I’m a lesbian was called “GirlFriend”. It was sweet and realistic. Granted the ending was rushed and we never got to see the main girl character get to come out to her parents, but it is implied that she did in the end.

[@RaisonLychi]

Yo, that's the series my non binary friend reccomended to me and the first Yuri manga I owned (also there was literally no other Yuri manga out at the time), the Eclair anthology series are pretty good and they have continuing stories in them.

[@chekhovs_gundam]

the only gl stories that i really got into were "begin with your name" and "always human", as both had their own appeal and stood out from other stories of that genre you could find online 10 or so years ago. personally i always preferred stories where romance was secondary to the main plot, but i'm always looking for new recommendations. i might check that one out

[@abitsourrrrsorry4885]

Not only you can tell it's written by men but a lot of GL manga characters look like toddler too. It's actually concerning. But thankfully manhwa exists lol GL manhwa is by far still have the sanest art than manga

[@abitsourrrrsorry4885]

@@chekhovs_gundam have you read "the guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all"? It's just fluff but one of the main character is a masc which is rare for a japanese GL manga standard.

[@chekhovs_gundam]

@@abitsourrrrsorry4885 i haven't, but the premise does remind me a little of "ohimesama no kagami" (where the love interest had sort of a bishounen charm) which i remember enjoying. thanks for the recommendation, i'll give it a read ^^

[@Noah60]

Rent about bl : I hate it when the boys are like "I don't like boys, I like girls, but you, boy, I would want to date you" and often the boy is very feminine, which I understand it can happen but like, ugh.

[@piercechoon]

It’s like… so stereotypical and such an overused plot ngl

[@tralilingvlog7160]

i remember that most of the time bl i consumed the main character was always feminine and looked like a girl to the point i straight up was like "thats a boy?" like just make it into a straight romance honestly and the fact that it even adds male pregnancy? this is nolonger a bl💀

[@Rjean-paul]

THATS THE WHOLE POINT MAKING STRAIGHT BOYS GAYYY

[@DanaMoon-uo8uz]

What is wrong with it? I like that kind of stuff ❤

[@sunnysodapop]

Some of the most impactful and famous BL manga actually tackled sexual abuse and in a healthy and proper way, not fetishizing it. Banana Fish is probably the most well known example. There is also Kaze to ki no uta which was a huge inspiration for Berserk.

[@pinkpanda6184]

I think not all problematic Bl was romance, it might dark erotica which is shocking, It was terrible mistake that they didn't adapt Kaze to ki no uta and Zankokuna kami ga shihai suru into anime series

[@pinkpanda6184]

I actually like some Harada works despite being too dark

[@sunnysodapop]

@@pinkpanda6184 I get what you're saying but I think that's part of the problem, mainly because most BL is literally just twisted erotica rather then telling an authentic love story. Like we can have erotica as a genre, I'm not here to trash on it. But I think there is something to be said about the fact that the older, original BL were real love stories that tackled things like sexual abuse yet somehow that just isn't the case anymore. Stories like Banana Fish and Kaze to Ki literally paved the path for Bl and now....it feels like this subgenre of romance has just been watered down to a joke. And the most frustrating part are the fujoshis. Reading Bl is fine. Having bl ships is fine. But when you're strictly BL and act like the girl doesn't even exist...now we're getting a little misogynistic and fetishizing gay ships. At least, that's been my experience. Just look at the Bakudeku fandom. Their hatred for Uraraka/Uradeku is strong.

[@pinkpanda6184]

@@sunnysodapop yeah, totally agreed about Bakudeku fans, they are so frustrating, Kaze to ki no uta and Banana fish is one of my favorites too, I had so many parts of bl that I personally hate like the guy who was easily forgiving to another guy who raped and sexually harassed him and vilifying female characters who doesn't to be vilified and also one guy was overly feminine paired with masculine guys worst he was male version of Yui Komori who was weak and unable to fight, yes I know most of bls are joke now, if only Kaze to ki no uta and Zankoku na Kami ga Shihai suru adapted into anime series back then, at least bl's reputation wouldn't be god awful like it is nowadays

[@sunnysodapop]

@@pinkpanda6184 I've never heard of Zankoku so I'll have to check that out. BUT I must say there is one instance where I entirely disagree with you and that is Yui Komori. The Diabolik Lovers anime is a joke. It's terrible. But Yui is a victim of domestic abuse and we should not victim blame her saying she is weak. Firstly, the men are all vampires and have supernatural strength. She is a mere human being. Of course she can't fight. Second, even if the boys weren't vampires, abuse is abuse. She is a small, shy and sweet girl who had no idea she was practically being sold by her father and experienced severe trauma and misogyny and could not escape or fight against her predators. Also, there's lots of girls like Yui in real life. Not every girl is Erza Scarlet or Mulan and both are valid. And even girls who can fight like Erza and Mulan could easily become abuse victims. Yui Komori is a survivor and a girlboss just the way she is.

[@dustdust9508]

You know what is interesting? I'm lesbian and when I was younger I was interested in yaoi/bl manga, and it wasn't because I was fetishizing men, but because I didn't really understand that I can be a lesbian that it's a thing but the concept of same sex love being possible was super magnetic to me haha now I see why, I wanted to understand myself haha Hm also, I like romance media, but I think, mostly due to trauma, I didn't want to read any straight romance because it made me uncomfortable, made me think of myself with a dude which 1) I didn't want plain and simple 2) reminded me of abuse tbh. And bl was save - romance media, but disconnected from me haha

[@MB-tj7xh]

I have been lurking in the comment section and as much as i agree with some comments, the amount of people who critisize BL yet don't even know basic terms...... For anyone interested, Bara is the genre that is made by gay men and for gay men. Shonen Ai is the genre that focuses on the romantic aspect of a gay relationship. Often it handles actual realistic topics or just stays in the fluff area. Yaoi is the genre with emphasis on "physical acts". It's always been treated as the less realistic one (even by it's own creators). Even it's name comes from "ヤマなし、オチなし、意味なし" aka "no climax, no point, no meaning". There are actual male readers and the term is fudanshi. They don't have to be gay necessarily but they enjoy the genre and sometimes contribute. If a straight man can enjoy and support BL why would that mean that female BL readers automatically fetishize gay men? A lot of gay creators actually have female nom de plumes (fake personas) that they work under. It saves them from having to come out or keeps them anonymous. Anyway go read bara and support it.

[@CatsandDragons7]

It’s kinda sad how far I had to scroll to find a comment like this. Like, sure stuff written by someone who is part of the community they are aiming for demographic wise is great, all the comments saying women can’t write MxM romance are…😬 Like that’s not far off from saying women can’t write male main characters, men can’t write fem main characters, white people can’t write characters that aren’t white, POC can only write characters of their specific background…. Like…as long as it’s done WELL and RESPECTFULLY, that is what should matter!!

[@bruhmachine6435]

Thank you for this comment. I hate the notion that people aren't allowed to write something because they aren't part of it, really weird.

[@XihoNekochan3]

As far as I know, Shounen ai (and Shoujo ai) are not terms used in Japan, if you use those terms even in weebs contexts over there, people will think you like young boys (or girls) since that's basically their meaning.

[@MB-tj7xh]

@@XihoNekochan3 yea. But theyre a long established thing for the english side. So im mentioning

[@XihoNekochan3]

@@MB-tj7xh Yeah! I think it's part of the long misunderstanding that the West has of Japan an its industries. For starters, there are male shoujo/bl mangakas who use pet names or female pseudonyms to fit into the industry, to avoid biases or just for personal reasons. And I have yet to find a video that considers this.

[@elafila6883]

honestly it never sat right with me that most yaoi/BL are written by women, maybe it's just me but i feel like it fetishizes romantic relationships between men?

[@user-uj2ji2cu9x]

Why does the fact it’s by women make it fetishistic?

[@elafila6883]

@@user-uj2ji2cu9x I mean what do they know about it? they haven't been in that relationship so it kind of feels not right. again this might be a stretch and me not understanding anything it isn't serious at all. my issue is with the way homosexual relationships between men are portrayed in yaoi mostly by straight women and how most of it is ALWAYS a guy with a petite physique being thrown around by a guy twice his size, just violent and never even consent. that's how most of yaoi i've seen were. although shounen-ai is actually okay and focuses more on the emotional development of the relationship.

[@frostrose8222]

@@elafila6883 I think the main issue with yaoi is that it's just porn. The writer doesn't take the time to flesh out their characters or story, instead they rely on the same toxic tropes as that's the fastest way they can come up with to get to as many sex scenes as possible. It's kind of the reason I've stopped reading most yaoi but have gravitated to shounen-ai. Smut isn't enough to keep me interested anymore and most yaoi doesn't have much to offer outside of the smut. As to whether BL is fetishistic because it's written by straight woman.. I think that's kind of unfair. A person shouldn't be gatekept in regards to what stories they can tell and I've read a good chuck of BL whose writers were straight woman but whom were very sincere when it came to LBGT rights, both in their works and in their private lives. At the same time though, I can understand why others would disagree. I wouldn't really use BL as a way to gain an understanding as to what it's like being a gay man as they're made to be escapist form of media. And the fact that's it's made by straight woman is reflected in the existence of many of it's tropes, mainly the existence of the whole uke seme dynamic.

[@elafila6883]

@@frostrose8222 that makes a lot of sense actually thanks for the insight

[@abitsourrrrsorry4885]

A lot of women yaoi fans also overlap with race/ethnic fetishist too. I'm indonesian and it's disheartening to see straight cisgender women (who's also indonesian themselves) had the audacity saying they feel disgusted by gay indonesian. Though I understand this kind of opinion are formed by the lack of queer SEAs representation in media. It sucks here.

[@elelonger4409]

This is a brilliant video. I personally, like bl and gl manga but I prefer normally the manga that actually explore the lgbt community and the ones with healthy relationships. I feel confused whether or not it’s bad for me as a female to enjoy this content. But I generally think the bad parts of yaoi such as sexual violence is actually presented in straight hentai and straight manga as well and I think that’s important to also remember but you went through it. Additionally I do think bl is actually Scrutinised more than manga than male demographic manga with the same problematic features. Like domestic girlfriend and super lovers basically have similar plot lines yet super lovers was seen as awful. Personally I don’t agree with both. Do you think bl manga has improved over 20 years with more realistic stories. Overall I found your content amazing keep it up

[@camcam794]

100%

[@blobfish1143]

Preach

[@laurelalloro]

Any gl recommendations?

[@wolfgangchen7287]

The difference is that straight people aren't oppressed and therefore aren't a target of harmful stereotypes like them 'all being r*pists', unlike the gay community, which still suffers under those homophobic stereotypes.

[@gigaguayabodelsur]

@@laurelalloro The guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all, How do we relationship or After hours are really good

[@kuya8329]

I definitely think yaoi has such bad/ toxic themes because of the prevelance of the same toxiv and abusive themes in straight romance.

[@briankai4936]

I'm queer and love reading and making comics. I think BL has its place, even if it's not for me, but my problem comes when it completely takes over like. . . Every comic site. I naturally write queer characters because I AM queer, and I'm honestly afraid that I won't be able to reach my target queer demographic because of the huge influx of BL readers. Does that make sense?

[@Reverse_Cat_Cowgirl]

Its like that saying about the odd ones being the loudest. You can be a small group into yaoi but it will appear like a majority because they are IN TO IT and they are always active. Idk, that's just the impression I've gotten.

[@spoopep]

I recently discovered your channel and i love your analysis about those medias ! It's kinda sad how yaoi/BL in itself is just completely fetishizing and leaves no place to actual representation instead of a straight up fantasy for cis-het viewers.That's why it's so refreshing to see casual representation like in Carole and Tuesday or Hoshiai no Sora. And it's nice to see queer creators starting to represent their own experience inside their work like with Our Dreams At Dusk. I would love to see one of you next videos analysing LGBT+ representation in anime or something !! :)

[@itsbasicboi]

hmmm...great idea! i'll add it to my list :)

[@fmadiva]

BL is not all fetishizing though.

[@pinkpanda6184]

Look how they portrayed gays also in regular shounen, shoujo, josei and seinen, they either predatory, pedo, dead or non existence, yes bl was targeted for women by women, in fact I hated how when regular non bl manga portray gays like this, they're either predatory, dead and non existent which is shock me, lot of western liberals or leftist wanted to sanitize all gay media which means vilifying nsfw mlm media (even the non problematic porn) and accepted only sfw mlm media which is too much and annoying, btw, I'm still hoping for nsfw mxf fxf manga and anime that was targeted for female because most of them are male demographic which is sucks for me

[@pinkpanda6184]

Non problematic nsfw bl exist too but it was rare and hard to find

[@narudayo5053]

It's like saying ecchi are mostly non problematic.... that issue is in every nsfw anime fictions@@pinkpanda6184

[@kittykat896]

Most Yaoi is pretty sus and I don't really understand the draw tbh. What I find ironic, is that one of the Yaoi series Id read and actually thought was well written, thoroughly surprising me in its extreme but realistic depiction of the effects of physical and sexual abuse, and the trauma that occurs in the human psyche and human condition because of it. ....was passionately condemned as being the worst of the worst 'romance' in existence. It garnered quite the fuss for a while when it was translated into English. And that series was Killing Stalking. I'd argue its the only Yaoi out there (maybe there's a few more, but I haven't seen them) that really frames what's usually considered 'sexy Yaoi tropes' honestly....it frames them clearly as toxic abuse that's horrific NOT romantic or sexy. Yet, Yaoi has just gotten more popular as time goes on and it really can be quite cringe for the most part, which is irritating since it doesn't have to be. There's some that actually depict normal and healthy love interests (No. 6 comes to mind), but unfortunately those depictions are few and far between, in the genre.

[@itsbasicboi]

I MEAN… PREACH!

[@diente.3576]

i agree, although Killing Stalking is not a yaoi, the author herself has stated it was never intended to be considered a BL

[@kittykat896]

@@diente.3576 It depends on what you consider Yaoi to be. Yaoi tends to be centered around homosexual content, either explicitly or implicitly, but homosexuality and homosexual content doesn't necessarily equate to romance or love. And this is the description I go by since when going through the different series of Yaoi, you'll find a vast array and various genres categorized as Yaoi. The one thing that they all have in common is the fact that the story centers around homosexual characters. And for me, I personally tend to stay away from referring to Yaoi as 'BL' because I find this English translated description to be actually very misleading, since that descriptor infers romance/love when really it should just be male homosexuality orientated 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@diente.3576]

@@kittykat896 but it was never meant to be considered romantic. I don't know exactly what you mean by this, because Koogi has stated that her work was not romantic in any sense and labeling it as yaoi was demeaning to the psychological horror

[@kittykat896]

@@diente.3576 ? Ya, I know it was never meant to be romantic. It was always meant to be a psychological horror/drama. Yaoi doesn't equate to romance; that means Yaoi doesn't mean romance. Yaoi isn't romance. Yaoi means male homosexuality and featuring male homosexual characters while romance involves a love relationship between characters ....these are two separate genres. FYI koogi never stated that to label Killing Stalking as a yaoi was demeaning to the psychological horror. In fact in the bonus Chapters of the webtoon she talks about how she always wanted to write a Yaoi, because she grew up reading mostly Yaoi.

[@Thatonefangir1YT]

To be honest, it’s one thing to create or indulge in p-rnography in manga in anime(regardless of the characters being gay/lesbian/hetero); However, it’s a whole different story when you project your s-xual fantasies onto real people or start treating real MLM like the anime/manga characters you ship.

[@mic6412]

I used to read BL a lot, but from some luck from the gods, the ones I started with weren’t inherently sexual. They were feel good romantic love between two males who were of the same or close age. I thought for the longest time that I was a “fushosi” when I used to read bl more often. But in reality I just really liked the feel will they won’t they in queer relationships more than the straight ones. The heterosexual relationships didn’t feel like they had stakes, it was so obvious and blatant who was gonna end up with who. Unlike queer relationships where there is the “oh no I like someone from the same gender as me” ark. Where it felt more exciting. Watching them come to terms with their feelings. Tho I will say there are good straight romance mangas (but I find myself liking ones that have more depth to their characters other than romance). For me BL was never something sexual unlike straight pairings where it felt too pushy , too sensual. I realize now it was mostly because they would show the love and relationships as a trophy and perfect as it can be , the boy and the girl were perfect. But in BL , both sides had stuff going on. Things that they had to get over. They felt like real people. And for me it was pure and it was love with its ups and downs. Anyways , reaaaaaaly love your videos gonna binge watch more. Ps: I really love the way you hold the microphone, it feels like I am watching the news and you are the best spokesperson

[@naomithornhill2079]

I agree. I feel bad for BL because there are some that are actually good like Yuri on ice, Given, Yes, No, Maybe, and the most recent Sasaki and Miyano.

[@Ellie-bj2uw]

I always felt uncomfortable about yaoi or reading it. All my friends do though, and their all female and straight. I also am female but I'm bisexual, I remember always feeling this deep, intense sense of discomfort whenever reading a yaoi book to the point I hated them. It always made me feel so uncomfortable to read since it felt like my reading was essentially fetishizing gay relationships and although I've never said this to either, I always feel weird when finding out someone reads them. One of my friends when we were talking about it told me that essentially, in Japan, that yaoi was seen as the only piece of literature that a woman could comfortably read so that's how I knew that yaoi is more for women. But idk, it always weirded me out I suppose. Irregardless, I always drifted.more towards yuri then yaoi. Unless it's something as good as given, I'm not likely to read it. And I even feel this way with shounen ai too. Unless I can find that it's actually not as bad as I would initially expect, I'm not likely to read it.

[@Kyraaa7]

I’m like this too, one of my close friends watches and reads a lot of yaoi and for sometime tried to get me into it as well, but it just made me uncomfortable, I thought I was alone on this since I’m Ace and really sensitive to sexual stuff, personally just most of blb/mlm ships that are in different anime or that are ship in the fandom creeps me out it’s all mostly toxic af. Also I did some research on this and with my own experience, I think showing weirdly sexual stuff on queer animes (specially blb/mlm) makes heterosexuals think queer relationships are just sexual. I do have this experience myself with my friend who thinks this way and when I came out to her as bi-romantic asexual she seemed very shock and not in the good way if I’m making any sense. Also when I tried to educate her she still didn’t listen and stand on her point.

[@ladynoluck]

There are some good ones in there, but yeah, A LOT is super fetishizing (I may notice it more as a gay, gray ace woman). A western creator tried to explain the fetishization tendency in yaoi to explain why she didn’t want her queer teen romance comic without graphic sex (Heartstopper, which just got a Netflix adaptation) called yaoi, and they said she was racist for it, when they just don’t understand what a lot of yaoi is like. 😭 Like it was a whole thing on twitter to bash her for something international yaoi/BL readers have been saying for decades

[@nfsiiihp]

I'm bi& not sensitive to seggs but Yaoi and its portrayal of orientations is... atrocious. Literally.

[@RaisonLychi]

What did you eat Yesterday? By Fumi Yoshinaga is an non explicit domestic depiction of an older gay male couple that involves so much food focus with actual methods and recipes.

[@peachesandcream22]

@@ladynoluck She was racist because she specifically targeted Asians in her speech and portrayed herself as "morally superior". Not all yaoi stories are only about sex phantasy, good example, Moxiang Tongxiu danmei novels. Also, I don't think it's still normal that heterosexual grown woman portrays some phantasy about relationship of teenage boys from straight female perspective. It doesn't make her better as a person only because she's white and she's Westerner. Most buyers of Heartstopper are still young teenage girls which makes everything clear as water. Don't forget that many, MANY Western BL stories can be even more problematic than Asian BL, and Heartstopper is not safe from this. Everyone knows that yaoi has many questionable moments, but her speech about it was really out of reality and pretty hateful. She deserved the backlash, she's a grown woman with popularity, it was her fault she said things wrong and made people embarassed.

[@RaisonLychi]

I collect all kinds of queer manga. Every so often I go through and reread them to see how they hold up in terms of the story, how the relationship is depicted, the dynamic between the characters, art quality. Alot alot ALOT of older BL manga are a incredibly fetishizing of gay male relationships, and very non consensual. Granted there's still alot like that out now (Don't be cruel is one of them.) There's also a abundance of GL out now too, but it's still so new that there also isn't alot of quality. But atleast visually you can tell how fetishizing it's going to be (Citrus...). What's interesting about more modern BL is that in the good ones you can actually learn about how the actual relationships are treated in japan and it's always fascinating to learn about that especially when things change for the positive. There's also some older gay mangaka who've had English publications in recent years that gives you more perspective (My Brothers Husband and Our Colours by Gengoroh Tagame) X-Gender, Our Dreams at Dusk and To Strip the Flesh are also pretty good LGBT manga in general and I hear the Sunspot is an interesting insight into people with various degrees of hearing loss (its BL but alot of the focus is on the various deaf and hard of hearing characters and how they communicate)

[@RaisonLychi]

I wouldn't look up more of Gengoroh Tagame's works freely though. Alot of the ones I've come across for short one shots and what not have been graphically violent and BAD END. Which is why I was so pleasantly suprised when I read his English published works.

[@Miss_Witch13]

I really enjoyed I hear the sunspot and I’ve read the first two volumes of our dreams at dusk and so far they’re really good I like that they don’t solely focus on a main relationship but on real world problems

[@pinkpanda6184]

I still Ctrus even I'm not a cishet man

[@pinkpanda6184]

Don't be cruel should have ended to soon, I can't the guy who wore glasses was easily forgiving, which off putting to me

[@pinkpanda6184]

​@@RaisonLychiHis other works was so problematic, My brother's husband was great, in fact it was seinen manga

[@yawnyzz]

As a gay man that enjoys a lot of BLs, I have seen so many comics and shows that are just straight up fetishization of gay relationships. There's a very fine line between having a story revolve around a gay couple and then a glamourized and fetishized relationship between two men. Most of the fetish comics/shows that I have seen are just constant sex scenes and glamorization of physical and/or verbal abuse, rape, sexual assault, and even pedophilia. But there is also so many great shows and comics that such cute love stories that so happen to have a gay couple as the main subject. This is why I like to separate BL from yaoi because yaoi contains more fetishization of these harmful topics and stereotypes towards gay men. However, BL is literally just romance stories that have gay couples as the main leads. I feel like a lot of people assume that both BL and yaoi are automatically fetishization because it is mainly coming from Asian media. However, I think it mainly depends on the contain in these stories that decide whether it is fetishization or not. Straight couples have a lot of spicy media that is mainly created for hetero people to consume and I think that should also be normalized for lgbtq couples to have as well. That doesn't mean straight people can't enjoy this media, but it just means to realize, both straight people and gay people, that consuming and/or making yaoi content for your fetishes and weird desires is just creepy and not okay.

[@sofyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

just discovered your channel through your peach girl video and you got yourself a new subscriber! ^__^ love your insight on this topic! i’m disturbed with the amount of rxpe that happens within yaoi. it’s so gross

[@itsbasicboi]

aww thank you much! yea this wasn’t an easy video to make…

[@kaylalalalalaMarie]

I don’t mean this in a combative way. At 10:23 the comment “most girls like” coming from a person that seems to be male is kind of…not cool. Men don’t get to speak for women. Where did this information come from, a study, survey? Or is it simply your opinion. If your pronouns/identity isn’t male I do apologize. The user name basic boi just leads me to believe a man is speaking on behalf of women…which has always been an ongoing issue.

[@RaisonLychi]

Fujoshi trapped in the body of a seme was written by a guy. (who has since started his own bl publishing endeavour)

[@RaisonLychi]

And I admire how entirely unsettlingly cringey the main character is. You see fujoshi who are exactly like that online everywhere.

[@EleiyaUmei]

@@RaisonLychi Just looked up the first chapter and as an AFAB person who read BL for a while this is.. embarrassingly relatable. I will not read any further, though, since I feel like it's not my place to read BL in general.

[@bee1411]

I’ve just started reading it, and it’s so painfully cringey, I love it pfff. It’s great because it’s a parody, thanks for the recommendation! Lmao, it’s hysterical.

[@NaFran49]

@@EleiyaUmei so you also don't read anything with male protagonists right? Or with people from a different ethnicity? Bissexual protagonists? You can only read while they are dating someone of a different gender? Or god forbid any historical romances? I mean how can someone right or read something with an ancient roman without being one? I'm really baffled by takes like yours that seem to getting pretty common and are such a conservative take on life and segregationist.

[@EleiyaUmei]

@@NaFran49 Huh? You don't need to assume I'm a conservative bigot just because I don't read BL, lol. I don't read BL because most of it is depicting MLM in a sexual/sexualizing way and as a non-MLM, I don't want to participate in the fetishization of MLM. Also, most BL are not written by MLM and therefore often don't depict those relationships in an authentic manner and therefore can contribute to someone developing prejudices or other expectations towards MLM. I read diverse books by diverse authors (e.g. One Last Stop by Casey McQuiston and The Jasmine Throne by Tasha Suri). I don't tend to read diverse books by non-diverse authors because they often falsify the experiences of their diverse characters.

[@fmadiva]

I do think there are some BL mangas/webtoons that are a good rep for queer folk like us, as a non-binary person this genre is really important to me. I will say this is such a needed video to understand the origins of an arguably controversial genre and there is much more to be said about the way it portrays gender and sexuality as a whole. I do want to remind people in the comments that queer folk both create and enjoy this genre too, it's not black and white. It's not a genre that's all bad but it has many issues too.

[@jasmine1926]

I appreciate you discussing this. I do read BL, but not exclusively. I generally like stories where the romance is enthusiastic and consensual (and non-harem), regardless of genre. When I first encountered BL, I was very uncomfortable by the obvious fetishization. I also noted that it seemed like women were written so poorly that some were using men to insert different stereotypes into their stories to get around....just writing women well. The hetero romances were so inequitable that they were using men to remove patriarchy from the relationships, but that was just patriarchy for men. There are definitely fun works in the genre, but the prevalence of humiliation and degradation as a preferred romance trope isn't for me.

[@layla-8369]

I got your vid recommended to me on my feed and I subscribed! I like that you touched on many subjects and the way you presented the material. I like your approach about body image specially. Had no idea about the child abuse in Japan growing, and though i don't thibk media is the only cause, it is certainly worrysome

[@itsbasicboi]

you are definitely right! i should’ve been more clear that anime and manga aren’t the only causes for child abuse rates.

[@layla-8369]

@@itsbasicboi i understood what you meant :) the feedback between reality and fiction is very interesting as a phenomenon --heartbreaking and awful as the reality is in this case. So thanks for taking the time to talk about it. Especially since, as you pointed out, people get really defensive on this one

[@justanobody7374]

I think the consumption of BL on itself is (somewhat) harmless, however, just like any product - pornografic product - it needs it's consumers' awareness over LGBTQ+ community, with the notion of prohibiting themselves from generalizing, stigmatizing and most importantly fetishizing a marginalized group.

[@ladymariam7128]

I like how you speak calmly and your tone is quite, unlike some KZbinrs way too loud, you seem yourself and natural .. ! I agree with most of what you’ve said, I’ve always felt that BL is off, even lesbian read this which’s strange for me, it’s not only the overly toxic plot ( cuz I do have heterosexual ships with some toxicity ) but Bl is waaaaaaayyy more toxic, but the plot is weak, and they like to make female characters looking evil.

[@alexandrawilson1735]

I'm a queer woman and love many bl/yaoi! Saying "bl/yaoi" as a genre is inherently bad would be similar to saying "shojo romance" is bad. There's actually a pretty substantial queer community around yaoi, at least in america these days. Yaoi/bl is a diverse genre that looks different now than it did 20 years ago as well, just like american media does. A lot of the tropes I come across that I personally don't like, including dangerous /abusive power exchange and inappropriate age gaps, exist commonly in shojo/josei romance. It all depends what you're looking for as a reader--are you reading to get off, to enjoy a fluffy romance or to see realistic characters develop? BL/yaoi animes are few and far between, so the majority I've watched tend to be the most marketable in regards to tropes, and haven't appealed to me. But there are still some that I love like Given, Seaside Stranger and Classmates. Sex, identity and sexuality are complex, but I tend to see my queer experience more often in queer media written by women/nonbinary folks than by cis men. Manga/manhwa is really the way to go if you want to experience the diverse queer media available across a wide variety of marketed demographics and author identities.

[@emile.728]

As a lesbian that reads bl and yaoi I agree!! The toxic morally wrong tropes exist in every genre, the problem is when people highlight it so much generalizations will happen

[@alessandrahah]

The age gap thing was/Is so common in anime that I grew up watching (you know nana, kodacha, Sakura etc) and I got so used to this that when I was 13 and I disicovered manga and that local manga stores existed, i wanted to try every genere and I bought Loveless without a thought💀 bc i liked the art style, the cat ears, It was pretty much popular and bc shonen-ai/yaoi manga were missing in my shelf. Then I dropped It After chapter 3 bc the story was making me so so so so uncomfortable 💀💀💀 I still have them, hidden somewhere with much shame

[@elecrom_9757]

Loveless is one of those series that would have needed better marketing in that they've just put it to the kid's stuff because of the artstyle even though the story is pretty heavy pretty much from the get go. If marketing people had read the series they would have slapped a 16+ rating on it and it would have been more fine

[@sophietessier8998]

I understand the yaoi appel as a women WE can enjoy every kind of relationship to soft to toxic without the mâle oppression and complexe gender power dynamic. Yet It's so funny how they make some look like children, or girl to be sure to matain the norm of top/Bottom Femelle/men. The current shift present muscular and buffy botom but the appel is the gap of how they are cute when submit in sex or how depreved. Wich have nothing to do with the gay mâle expérience.

[@trashcant69]

The thing that bothers me most about bl is the constant dubcon and noncon that isn’t even acknowledged as such. It’s not even romanticised, it’s just normalised? Also the whole dynamics of always having a feminine and petite guy as the bottom, and a masculine and tall guy as the top. Even if the tropes are subverted it’s usually not in a very good way and feels kind of tacky. Also my arguably least favourite trope is omegaverse. It’s so icky. Yea sure, let’s make a genre that already has commonly awful power dynamics even worse. As a weeb in my younger teens I did read a lot of bl, like probably a lot of people, but as I got older I just… couldn’t anymore. Every time I do read it again I just drop the story really quickly anyways, because it makes me cringe feel icky. The stories just don’t sit right with me.

[@Hopebun]

I'm pretty much a BL and GL anime/manga fan, I watched and read a lot of BL content like Sekaiichi hatsukoi and Junjou romantica. I see a lot of things wrong in those (all of the flaws that were mentioned in this vid which I agree with) and other similar titles but tbh I think fondly of some of them nontheless. I wouldn't recommend those to an average anime fan but I know BL anime that are exceptionally good like Sasaki and Miyano, Umibe no Entranger and Doukyuusei that can definietly be recommended as a good watch to someone willing to give the genre a try. When it comes to GL anime I really enjoyed Strawberry Panic, Yagate Kimi ni Naru and Asagao to Kase-san. Sadly, both when it comes to BL and GL anime there isn't much titles to choose from which sucks so bad, I want to see more of good gay/lesbian stories. And yeah I agree, many yoai manga/dj/anime is heavily fetishized but so is yuri, let's not convinietly forget about it. I know this specific vid is about yaoi but there is very little of discourse regarding yuri bc most ppl call out only the "rotten girls" and don't talk about the "rotten guys" so... lemme give my two cents. Yuri and yaoi fans share some similarities, yaoi is enjoyed by mostly girls, yuri by mostly guys. But fujoishis get shitted on while there isn't that much of a taboo with male yuri enjoyers. Honestly, I hate it that especially yaoi/BL fans are often looked down on sometimes simply for liking yaoi. This vid was pretty good tho just thought I'd share with my thoughts!

[@Hopebun]

I forgot that the word "rotten guys" is used for fudanshis lol, by that word I meant guys who are fans of yuri but there is no word of that kind for them as far as I know

[@sunnysodapop]

Although I'm not a fan of the fetishizing sometimes found in bl manga, everyone hates on fujoshis but I don't see the same energy with Hentai which is on a whole nother incomparable level.

[@pinkpanda6184]

Hentai was a straight porno some of lesbian porno, I watched lot of hentai anime, my only problem was most of them targeted for men

[@mohasalmedeh2567]

Can we talk about how most of yaois glorifying or romanticize r@pe like it's always this musclar tall handsome with black hair boss and his colored hair skinny with feminine features employee go to hotel or boss's house so the boss not only forces him to have s3x but tell him how is okay and this is his destiny LIKE ISN'T THIS A R WORD!!!!!!!

[@ibhnfiona]

hello ! just wanted to say that i love your content and channel

[@itsbasicboi]

Aww thank you soo much Fiona! Honestly this kind of disturbs me too. It’s weird that some fans don’t consider how this genre can affect gay men. I didn’t include this in the video, but I found some Quora & Reddit posts from gay men and they talk about how it creates unrealistic depictions of gay romance.

[@personwithamid-lifecrisis6289]

I actually really really agree with most of your points. While I do enjoy reading yaoi and I do particularly find myself seeking this specific genre, I read so much to the point that I'm hella desensitized and personally just don't take the genre THAT seriously anymore. It's a really problematic genre, I tell you. In my observations, most of yaoi manhwas/mangas/manhuas I've read mostly focuses on the smut over the plot. Also has a lot of issues with consent as a whole. There are some good ones out there but really, it's just a few.

[@Robert-cy3qx]

this video was so wonderful! thank you for your wonderful analysis. you are so well spoken

[@ahleem]

hello i just wanted to say that i discovered your channel yesterday and absolutely binge watched all of your videos(which helped me go through the last hours of fasting 😭). you have such a relaxing voice and your takes are always interesting, keep going ! (◍•ᴗ•◍)♡

[@itsbasicboi]

Aww that’s so sweet! I’m glad I was able to help :)

[@bird5007]

The best explanation I’ve heard, which I understand as a queer person is that its expressing genderless relationships removing the pressure from woman who are reading on acting a certain way in relationships

[@camcam794]

25:46 reminded me of a KZbin video Vice made about manga featuring “relationships” between children and adults. It’s easily accessible, and isn’t considered CP. publishing houses are totally fine printing and selling them. I can see that video being VERY triggering to some people so don’t watch it if you think you will be triggered

[@nep4912]

great video and loving the links in the description!

[@ruriva4931]

I’m a straight woman and I read a bit of BL and yaoi now a days. Here’s my disorganized history with the genre/demographic. I’ve been an ally of the LGBTQ community since elementary school when my friend came out to us and I first learned/had to confront the term. I never really found myself interested in reading BL, if anything I thought I’d rather read GL story because I thought I’d feel disconnected from a BL story. I was also a pretty pure highschooler so I definitely wasn’t interested in reading yaoi. Most of my friends were female and queer in highschool, and one of my closest friends would recommend me to watch the show Given, and while I liked the episodes I watched with her I didn’t really have the initiative to continue watching it myself. About half way through highschool I started to read webnovels on novel updates. And that platform has a lot of shounen-ai and yaoi. My favorite genre fantasy romance. My preferred demographic is josei, but it’s a rare thing. Especially because I don’t like abuse plots. I ended up reading a light shounen-ai story because it had one of my other favorite tags kingdom building. I think ended up becoming more open to the genre because of novels like that. Eventually I ended up reading some of the more popular shounen-ai novels and found some of them to be extremely well written. I had some problems with it though as I read more of it. The strict typing of roles really bugged me. Even in straight romances I had problems because I liked more dominant female protagonists and wasn’t a fan of overbearing ML. The seme uke dynamics were often times more extreme than in straight stories. Which is when I realized there was a tag “seme protagonist” and “manly gay couple” and “reversible pairing” which tended to be more up to my preference. However the stories with those tags were rare, even more so than Josei so I quickly read most of the titles that interested me. A lot of the BL I read was also danmei, and with Chinese censorship and culture lots of weird themes got into the stories and sometimes it wasn’t obvious immediately. In anycase I’d still read other demographics of webnovels but I’d gotten to a point where despite some of my problems with some stories there were things I really liked about BL. My webnovel reading habits leaked into my manga reading habits and while I definitely don’t read as much BL manga as I do novels I did read some. Most of the smut I read is manwha so I didn’t read much yaoi manga but I have read some. Which got me to then read some Bara manga. Idk how I feel about Bara. It can be very graphic which is uncomfortable for me, but I have also found some I really like. Idk if I’d say I fetishize gay men when I read BL or yaoi. But like as a straight woman I like dick so I tend to prefer it to yuri and GL. Though I find my appreciation for GL and BL to be more equal than my thoughts on yuri and yaoi. That being said there’s a lot of shit in yaoi that I avoid like a plague. So I wouldn’t give a blanket statement about liking yaoi or being a fujoshi. Omegaverse especially is a can of worms that except on rare occasion leaves me feeling sick when I give it a try.

[@zapryo]

number 1 yapper here guys

[@LilLadyAy]

Age of consent in Japan being 13 was always a bs argument, you're also not am adult until you're 20.

[@s2sHoXXs2]

I am absolutely binging your videos, i love how you talked about the japanese culture at large wrt beauty standards, etc. Great video!!

[@Metroretro594]

even if it's legal, doesn't mean it's moral (on ages of consent)

[@valdevitch1999]

I read yaoi and BL every now and then, and while I do read it because it’s enjoyable sometimes, I can’t understand people who obsess over it. Especially when the obsession is over a toxic relationship, but no, because they ‘love’ eachother, and are ‘both men’. And claiming that yaoi is the ‘best’ genre is completely fetishizing it. I’m not really that much of a fan of the romance genre, meaning any type of romance. But to the good ones I’ll read any, GL/yuri, BL/yaoi, etc. The toxicity in most yaoi is honestly what makes me hesitate when I try to find any new ones, I have a couple romance stories of the yaoi genre but it’s hard to find ones that aren’t toxic or abusive, rape is also a no-go. At this point I just read BL and GL cause the sexual version of the two is… scary… you can almost never find any of those that aren’t rape or toxic. But anyways, I’ve been saying toxic way too much. It’s really frustrating whenever I’m trying to find new manga to read and the entire front page is just yaoi, I just want some action-fantasy!

[@cuckoos_]

When I was younger I had no personal tastes or interests, so discovering Yuri on Ice fan videos (cringey edits) made me feel kind of ashamed but excited, I felt I had an interest in something which wasn't childish or whatever. I also around that time then began using it as fuel all of a sudden for escapism and daydreams in my life to avoid, and so my past self fetishising gay men was very much due to me finding straight stuff unexciting and acceptable, and because I finally started exploring my inner mind. As much turmoil my maladaptive daydreams caused me, and how I feel shame for watching/reading gay men as objects, it ultimately helped me feel more confident in exploring new topics I would have originally been afraid to look at. I don't know if I'm straight, I've always assumed I am but I question it quite a lot. But there are some good stories I found along the way which I could act normal about...No.6 is really good, and Killing Stalking is really horrible in a good way...? I read killing stalking after distancing from all the media I was looking at, I found it from a bunch of girls obsessing over the relationship, and I found it gross and horrible, I thought it was really realistic though. I guess killing stalking was the nail in the coffin, I no longer from that point had any interest in yaoi except for stories which had better intentions

[@orisetsune2398]

Hi there! I just discovered your channel and I love your vids (subscribed🎉) I’m one of those cis het female BL enjoyers, and I have to say I am so glad I seem to have skipped a lot of those titles you mentioned, but don’t deny they exist in abundance. For me growing up in the 90’s/early 2000’s, BL was the first time I encountered media that didn’t portray “the gays” as anything other than a joke or gross, if they weren’t censored out at all (I was there for the OG run of Sailor Moon with female Zoisite and “the cousins”) Sad, isn’t it? What has been a mainstay of holding my interest in BL has actually been the LACK of bog standard character roles placed on the leading men, at least in the titles I have encountered. What I mean is: the men in the story, regardless of how they fit romantically are whole, well-fleshed out characters with arcs, negative traits, room to grow etc. I love getting to know these awesome characters and see them happy. That’s the “fantasy escapism” angle for me. Anyway I really liked your analysis, great perspective, and I look forward to watching more of your videos 🎉🎉🎉.

[@PewPawPows]

What are your personal thoughts on Bara (a gay genre of comics made by gay men, often featuring beefy and sometimes hairy dudes)?

[@varshini6904]

Your voice is soo soothing 😴

[@shreksmistress]

I know girls who are fudoshi's, thank you for talking about this, it makes me really uncomfortable. They say: "I don't like hetero relationships all that much. You already see them everywhere." And I say: "Oh, so do you like yuri too?" AND THEY SAY: "No not really, I find it kinda icky actually." BRO... BRO... AND THEN THEY ALSO START SHIPING THE GUYS IN MY SCHOOL. LIKE STOP IT. DON'T SHIP REAL PEOPLE.

[@keekeekakakookoo]

it's just so disgusting when BL media usually the "bottoms" get raped and then somehow the bottom and the ML gets together. the way the creator just shrugs off the pain of getting raped or sexualize abuse is so disrespectful to actual victims. and people try to justify it by saying, "it's okay they get together in the end." that still doesn't mean it's okay????

[@swatantrimukherjee3033]

I've been reading webcomics for a long time now... So I always wanted a video calling this out.. it's the same with most Gl/Yuri manga which is why I could never get into it.. thank you for discussing this !

[@MB-tj7xh]

rather than just fetishizing men (which ofc occurs) one of the reasons could be that it mostly removes the aspect of the female pov. thus avoiding the readers internalized misogyny that a lot of asian women carry in asian patriarchial countries. in a way a male main character in a bl can be a blank slate, and can explore kink or heavy topics that a women would be condemned for. also in defense, i personally am lesbian and i know lesbians who read explicit bl. so i don't think its always a fetishization. I'ts very sad to see this new internet era of pride raised western kids condemning this product that caters/expresses to restricted asian women, men and lgbtq folks. the video tackles the topic heavily from a western point of view.

[@anna.owo.]

Just because it is way to explore your sexuality doesn't mean it is healthy, there are healthy ways to cope and unhealthy, reading rape manga is definitely not a healthy way to do that as it does normalise unhealthy relationships and it doesn't help you accept your sexual desires in real life. Maybe a therapist or talking to your partner is a better way to do that, in our era we should be comfortable to ask for consent andd set boundaries or explore stuff. Many in the yaoi fandom are actually homophobic and misogynist and we should have the right to criticise them. Enjoying homoerotic relationships is totally fine, i read gl but we should have a critical thinking in what we consume and how we act.

[@MB-tj7xh]

@@anna.owo. again, i think you underestimate that there wasnt much there in the first place. It ofc may seem incomprehensible for smb living in the comfortable internet space of the 2020s. Also you are very sheltered for thinking therapy in asia is a viable choice and not something that can impaxt your whole career and turn you into a pariah. And if you cant come out of the closet, how will you find a partner. And again your opinion is subjective. I have lived through it myself. I started out as as somebody who had no interest/idea about queerness->became a Bl fangirl->ally-> became interested in real queer experiences-> analyzing myself-> discovering my sexuality. Even for those, whose experience stops at ally, it's still good bc we need all the allies we can get. And bl is a good, casual way to start. Also try reading bara. It's by real gay men. Not by "evil fujoshi". Soon you will realize entertainment is just entertainment.

[@anna.owo.]

@@MB-tj7xh i don't care about the past. We are talking about now, you can't defend the fetishization of homosexual men today with that. The issue isn't women reading porn with two men but the pedophilia, incest and rape in the material. Those are disgusting, if a guy i was interested told me he watches porn with role play about rape or incest i would run away. The fujoshi community is very toxic, homophobic and misogynistic. Many time they hate female characters just for existing and ruining their "ship" and some are homophobic in real life or see gay men as something sexy. Gay men don't want to be liked that way by women. Again i will say it isn't something wrong to enjoy mlm porn but use some ethics in what you consume. People literally shipped ciel, a 12 year old kid with his adult demon butler, that is fucking pedophilia.

[@emile.728]

@@anna.owo. you do realize you can do none of these living in Asia???? I'm an asian lesbian, and yaoi comics have helped me discover sexuality. Media paints us as disgusting people, therapist help us turn straight and we can't have partners because we can't come out in no way possible. Op that wrote the comment was right, it's a western pov.

[@emile.728]

@@anna.owo. I think just another issue is you keep mentioning toxic trope while gl and straight mangas also have toxic tropes. Generalizing yaoi as toxic is wrong, as a reader I can give you at least 15 yaoi mangas that discussed sexuality and romantic feelings and wants fetishized. But I could also give you toxic ones, same with gl and het ones. The problem is that the media only highlights bad and toxic things instead of highlighting good and actually brilliantly written yaoi.

[@halfblood100]

I'm a Trans, gender fluid, Pan, Ace, Aro individual who was raised as a girl. I'm a bl fan. Bl helped me realize I was queer faster than I ever would've without it. Growing up, my whole family was Mormon, it would've taken at least an extra ten years. I consume bl as a romantic experience, because i like romance. I struggle with straight and lesbian romances at times due to: gender disphoria, the way women are written, the men consuming wlw content in a sexual way, and the affect men have had on wlw content. I want to read and watch more gay/queer content. Bl is also a safe way to explore gender, sexuality, and interpersonal politics particularly within omegaverse. So naturally, I am still a bl fan, and I do acknowledge the issues within it. Just as with all genres, you need to learn how to find stuff you like and how to avoid stories with things you don't like. The way to change the culture around bl, is with yourself both as fans and outsiders.

[@kyoneko87]

So as a self professed fujoshi I do acknowledge that there can be many problematic elements in BL, however, sometimes I just want to enjoy my problematic BL, as long as I acknowledge that these elements are not ok in the real world. Also there is another genre displayed homosexual relation/ships known as Bara that are meant for gay men. As for Loveless, the manga is even more messed up. And I did read some of it as a young tean but dropped it as I got older how uncomfortable I felt and the implications. I do not know why the manga was published and the point of it, it does touch on and explore some subjects that need to be explored more, but I am not sure how well it covers these topics. But I did keep forgetting he was twelve when I was reading it as a young teen. How did I forget that

[@elinasanglert1520]

I remember watching Yuri on ice and i sought out more anime like it and watched some really bad anime, there was one where the mc literally gets raped and blackmailed and the rapist was the love interest. It was awful. And the super lovers one made me so uncomfy. I was pretty new to anime back then. So yeah i think the Yaoi genre has some really bad anime with alot of abuse, rape and pretending that stuff was okay. I think the only ones i liked was Yuri on Ice and Banana fish (if that counts). I think what made me check out more of the genre after Yuri on ice was that i really dont like hetero romance because it feels the same all the time. How pushy the guys were toward the girl even tho she never seemed interested. And how basic and boring the characters were. I probably just found bad romance anime lol. (oh, and fanservice, too much fanservice in some) There is a movie called Doyukiseii or something like that, its like an hour long and it has really pretty animation. Where two boys realize their sexuality and that they like eachother, short wholesome. I recomend.

[@sanewitch8036]

BL is just an erotic fiction for women and Bara is for gay men, I don't think we need to analyse it as anything else. Of course almost all erotic fiction and porn contain very problematic tropes but I think increased attention to this particular genre is due to sexism in most cases.

[@senu.]

honestly there's some really good BL nowadays, Given was such a joy to read over the years it just finished recently and it was overall a very positive experience. it isn't by any means perfect there was some red flag moments but the way it was handled made sense. the toxic side relationship ended and both parties of said relationship found their way to a better existence away from each other. the main couple is perfect the struggles they go through are very realistic and it isn't even about them being gay that isn't seen as a big deal at all and I think that's why I enjoyed so much. no shock value just a nice little story.

[@Reverse_Cat_Cowgirl]

I've always wondered what was up with this. Do men go crazy for FF romances like the woman do? It seems oddly one-sided.

[@crunkbunny9003]

Kinda off topic (?) but I remember when I was in elementary (6th grade) one of my best friends asked me if I heard about Yaoi and I said “no” bc I was a literal fetus. And he showed me a game called “Camp Buddy” and pulled me into this rabbit hole of Yaoi. I become traumatized by seeing all this from a young age that growing up I was obsessed with Yaoi. I’ve recently grown out of it and I am SO glad I have. I always felt so guilty when I would go back into it. I have been cleansed now 😭

[@chongus927]

Lmao camp buddy

[@YamiyugiXenith]

Im glad u came out of it

[@strawberriestastegood]

Really cool video, love to see that subject be explored here!

[@sophietessier8998]

Omg you said it all !!! You my king 👑

[@strawberriestastegood]

It’s disheartening to see how little media in anime actually portrays good fleshed out queer romantic relationships. I watch and read all sorts of things, from anime to regular novels. As a straight woman, i don’t relate to the “escaping the harmful patriarchy” aspect that mlm relationships provide for straight women. I can understand it? But i don’t relate to it? At least not on a conscious level. Not trying to invalidate anyone here! I’ve heard a lot of women talk about this, but when i considered it for myself, I didn’t feel anything click. This is only my personal opinion. Sure, no women are being harmed in badly written mlm stories but people on the queer spectrum are? To me, as long as it’s a well framed story, anything can theoretically work. As far as anime goes, I’ve seen sasaki to miyano and given and i consider they’re the only good representation of these relationships so far in anime that i know of (I’ve watched banana fish but it’s not really a full on BL). I’ve heard of super lovers and similar shows and I am horrified. Shows like that are just lazy fetishization and are harmful to people who identify as gay/bi or are on the spectrum: they showcase extremely detrimental stereotypes etc…Identity politics oblige; I can’t speak on lgbtq+ people’s behalf, but I’ve discussed this with some and they agree. I’d love to hear what y’all have to say. I have a lot of thoughts about this but my comment is already long enough.

[@MB-tj7xh]

maybe bc you arent living in asia 24/7? that is usually a big factor.

[@strawberriestastegood]

@@MB-tj7xh I’m actually asian from the middle east! I’ve lived there for 18 years and moved abroad for college a few months ago! I recognize how harmful the patriarchy is and I’ve experienced first and second hand how detrimental it is to women (even in fiction, women are often paired with a horrible male love interest and that relationship is rarely criticized and usually romanticized: i tend to avoid these stories as much as i can as i do not enjoy them because i find the writing lazy and irritating). However, all i said was that mlm stories weren’t a way to escape that at all, at least for me. I’ve always classified those under whatever genre they belonged to (usually romance) and just consumed them as that genre. So, while i understand, i dont know if i relate (my friend once pointed out it could be subconscious)! Which isn’t a good or bad thing. Just a neutral point of view. I escape through other types of media, such as media containing well written female characters being treated correctly as opposed to media where the focus is not even on women as a group! Nevertheless, I’ve seen a lot of people (regardless of gender or sexual orientation) talk about how BL was a way for them to explore their sexuality and their preferences. So I wouldn’t condemn these types of media exactly. But if we’re talking from a « good queer representation » perspective, then perhaps it’s fair to raise an eyebrow? I feel like it’s unnecessary to portray a 30 year old being attracted to a 12 year old if the goal is to explore sexual fantasies…I feel like BL is often detached from other queer media and kind of has an audience and approach of its own? It’s pretty complicated tbh! Thus why i find discussions around the topic to be enriching! Thanks for having replied, I look forward to reading ur pov.

[@narudayo5053]

The issue tho is that mpst of the judgment from BL in anime, come from fact that there is only a handful of anime. Back then 10 years ago, we had only like 5 full-fledge BL anime, which were all non-con or h/rny behavours stories. While the good stories where only 5 min episodic or 1 or 2 episodes OAV. And the issue is that people keeping judging fujoshi based on these 10 years old shows that were the only BL (yaoi for most) available back then (to many teenagers discovring internet and anime). BL (shonen-ai) having full fledge anime series is a really really recent things. Yet they keep doing it. Nowadays Each year, we will have at least 1/2 actual BL stories + 1 or 2 OAV of highly nsfw BL works that no asked for. There is also the entry issue of BL, especially on the western side, because people will search using the term yaoi, while it's literally mean nonsensical nsfw BL. On the comments most people who don't know much about BL use the term yaoi and describe it's egregrious contents, well of course it has, that the point of yaoi (just like hent- is). Shonen ai being the good terms to look for actual BL contents with a plot (also checking if the manga have the appropriate tags). Which there is actually tons of it (some even being under the shoujo category)

[@MerlinsFiles]

Not here to beef, but to offer a perspective you can take as you will-- as a gay transmasc, prior to realizing my identity I felt a ton of guilt for only being magnetized to romantic relationships between men in fiction. Already being into anime, 'yaoi' and fandom surrounding mlm shipping came easily. It was just what was most available, where mlm relationships were the most explicit, etc. I was conscious of issues within the genre (besides the age gaps, because I was the same age as the underage characters being groomed!) and of the ways it may teach primarily female fans to objectify gay men in real life, ie. they might not know that the 'seme/uke' dynamic, or the personality types, or the hetero-reminiscence are not indicative of real life-- thus subconsciously influencing their assumptions about real gay men. I tried to force myself to seek female representation in romances and to create female original characters. I believed it should make me feel seen and affirmed if it was just the right type of woman, one that just wasn't a stereotype or super femme and demure. I thought I just needed to get used to it-- to 'meet the right woman'-- in order to mature. But it was just so tiring every time. I actually inflicted lasting harm on my psyche and was less able to empathize with women than ever. (Transitioning and fostering friendships with women in my real life have had a big hand in healing this.) ANYWAY-- I'm not saying I'm mad about your takes though. I've been in 'yaoi/BL' fandom a lot-- recently I've been playing this Nu Carnival game and it's.. well it's ...something, lmao. Fandom was toxic as hell, a lot of fans are creepy like this I think, but I did meet other queer people (largely nonbinary and transmasc asexual, pan, bi, and gay.) I was actually surprised not to be the only one..! Also, there are some fans (at least in the US) who reclaim the 'fujoshi' label as part of an exaggerated, 'cringe culture is dead' thing. A hyperfem lesbian friend of mine, for example, does this and also seems to engage with yaoi in a very genderqueering way. PS. someone else has probably said this already but just in case, it is pronounced "yowwy."

[@psychotophatcat]

Fujoshi has been used in Japan as a term for any woman who reads any MLM content for a long time! Fujoshi means "rotten girl" and was used as an insult by online boards to mean that any woman who enjoys gay MLM media is unfit to be married. Of course, in immediate rebellion, many who were called this embraced it because why would they WANT to be considered marriage material by some gross randos online anyway? It's definitely more demonized as a term in the West where people assume "rotten" means "fetishizing and objectifying" 😒

[@floptaxie68]

It’s pronounced just as it’s spelled YAH-OH-EE

[@AzraelsAbyss]

This was a great video thank you!

[@Mercy.Beloved]

I also really love your channel and I’m going to watch all of your videos! I’m def subscribing! Keep up the good work ❤

[@RaisonLychi]

Loveless was a series I liked when I was a teenager and read it online until it updated so slowly I thought it just stopped. It's... All kinds of criminally ick. ALL KINDS! EVERY KIND! Even the therapist is predatory. Throw it in a drum and burn it there is nothing salvageable.

[@Lunakitty1234]

Same. My tastes is anime/manga is vastly different than when I was a teen that didn’t know any better . These days I try to stay away from toxic shit and any stuff with age gaps. I mainly just like wholesome shit :) Btw wat are your thoughts on Black Butler? There was definitely some Sus moments in that show too and I heard that the creator did plan to make them a couple at some point . I used to like the anime but now idk it feels kinda creepy.

[@sassy_sasarai4090]

Great videos/topics, dude

[@KeyOfTheTwilight]

18:24 Omg! You mentioned the app! XD I tried this app and yeah! It's very, very messed up. XD

[@gracebres]

I am a bisexual woman and tbh BL was never my cup of tea, though it's growing on me thanks to my friend. I much preferred gl and f/m stuff as I liked seeing women characters being involved and felt represented. So it was very interesting to me that so many women were into BL. Also, I hate how many of these communities treat bisexual characters, from erasing their bisexuality to being straight up bigoted. So I just write and draw my own stuff.

[@p0k3n92]

I’ve never seen your videos, but I really really respect the TW… I’m gonna go watch another one of your videos 😂

[@ffxfgxsfxxxg2419]

For me growing up most straight romances had women tied up in non con scenarios and this genre really showed me that things can be consensual not justifying it but that’s why I started this genre. Although I do prefer straight and yuri fix’s more now that’s only because they changed the basic stories they show to be actually enjoyable

[@MB-tj7xh]

A lot of points i see are 'i was exposed to it, i didn't seek it out' or 'it does not show smt i can relate to'. Both are very valid reasons. But any corn is traumatizing when you aren't ready. And again asian relationship with media might be a bit different? You aren't supposed to relate to it exactly. Bara has been a genre for a while now and yet it's not smt that gay men read and relate to more than bl. Both are just entertainment with varying degrees of realism

[@fauxmintdissident]

I comment as sacrifice to the Automated Instruction deities, Algorithmia

[@tonichan89]

I tried to look up Jordan Theresa's video and I can't find it... It seems she might have deleted it.

[@Jeetaruey]

I've always viewed Loveless as a demented twisted story and the relationship of Ritsuka and Soubi is not a good thing. The anime isn't very good, but if you read the manga, you will see Ritsuka has mental issues he sees a therapist for, a mom who abuses him, a father who let's it happen, and Soubi is another layer of abuse. He goes through all this while trying to figure out who killed his older brother only to discover his brother is not dead and is also abusive. It's been quite few years since I last read the series and it was still being written at the time. Not sure if it's concluded now. I never rooted for Ritsuka and Soubi and was reading it in hopes Ritsuka would escape his many abusers. It's hard to say if that was the point of the story because I also watched Riddle Story of Devil which was written by the same person and demented queer stories is kinda that writer's thing. Though the relationship in that story is way less problematic. If you want a good BL anime that is not incredibly problematic, I suggest No. 6.

[@seraphia]

I have to say that I do enjoy reading BL but I regret reading the popular ones back when I was younger. Especially Loveless since after reading the manga, I guess I was sort of questioning if it was good or not? My moral philosophy was questioned and at the time I never knew if it's good or bad. There was also a time where an anime kinda yaoi bait (if that's a word) fans into watching an anime literally about something else other than BL (Monochrome Factor for example) which kinda shows how unnecessary to endorse an anime or a series to appeal a female audience. I still read/write them but the I'd only write soft and heartfelt ones instead. Personally I wouldn't be bothered if people ship two guys together to fulfil their "headcanon" but I've been more mild about BL ever since.

[@artaquino6388]

finally a gay man,especially a gay black man, speaking about this

[@spookyjones6577]

I think what a lot of people are missing is that this is a safe way for women to fantasize sexually without focusing on their own bodies or competition with other women. I’m a staunch defender because while I don’t enjoy yaoi now, I used to when I was younger and had body issues. Having two male characters who are involved in a relationship that mimics the kind of relationships that women have typically been in over periods of history bothers people more than lesbian porn but okay

[@yumerepaint8287]

Reading and watching bl manga and anime (Yuri on ice, given, SK8, sarazanmai spinoff manga, banana fish (ik it's shoujo but I truly relate to eiji) is actually how I came to terms with being a bi trans man Not sure if requiem of the rose King counts, but it also really helped me and I swear me and Richard Ill have the same brain, things that he's thought are also word for word things that I've also thought It's such a relatable description of dysphoria and it helped to finally see myself represented in a piece of media I've also heard of some others that bl helped them realize themselves too

[@blazing_orchids]

loveless truly broke my brain and i didn't know until i was much older. i watched the anime and read the majority of the manga when i was like 10 or 11.... truly one of the most fucked up series I've ever engaged with

[@kyoneko87]

By the way bishounen is actually pronounced be-shounen. The I sounds like an e. For future reference. No hate though. As I known it's hard to navigate Japanese pronunciations

[@remithefrog350]

Your videos are super well done and this is totally unrelated but you are very cute god damn

[@black-listed]

i wanted to leave a comment but YT keeps deleting it :(

[@black-listed]

as a bisexual men i discovered a few years ago the underground world of yaoi. since then i always felt bad about my body because i wasn’t like the hot hunk with six pack and this whole daddy charisma or the cutie boi very pretty yet quite feminine, and so the target audience of BL/yaoi are mainly, if not exclusively girls, my brain developed this idea that “if i don’t look like this with a tall posture for e.g girls won’t approach me or i won’t be considered “average and okay” for them since in their head they have this ideal type of mens very s*ualiz*d and f*tishiz*d that only exist in fiction. also when it comes to dating men i try so hard to not comparing myself to models online but in fact as you mentioned in the video, as a man in this society we’re supposed to fit the male beauty standards otherwise we’re not even accepted by our peers. girls reading BL tend to forget that the fiction is not real and unconsciously i did the same, ironic isn’t it? oh and there is clearly a misrepresentation of s* acts that aren’t healthy at all! no preparation, no after care, any consent between the two characters...! young girls (boys or any gender that you feel comfortable with) can fall into ab*si*e relati0nships or have n0n-consensual s** to replicate what they feel is "acceptable" in BL! i discovered you a few days ago and wanted to leave a comment to help you out but yt deleted it over and over again :)) greeting from france and i apologize if what i say don’t make sense and i tried to censor some words, hopefully my comment isn't taking down this time

[@itsbasicboi]

bestie you articulated your thoughts so well !! better than I did in the video lol. thank you very much for sharing your story.

[@jay-ik1bm]

Ohhh yes the fragile litte ones and the stalion

[@Vanne004]

Thanks for the Video. I like your work and the opinion that you have about yaoi. You consider everybody that that yaoi or shounen ai like.

[@YamiyugiXenith]

My issue with a lot of yaoi is its disgusting. Like there's so much r3pe and p3dophilia. Junjo romantica, okane ga nai? r3pe. Super lovers, papa to kiss p3dophila and these series are popular! Like is there just a regular yaoi series that isn't creepy and gross? I don't understand how some women can see male characters getting abused and get turned on? Like in a lot of these yaois a male character is straight he gets r worded and then starts liking it and falling for the guy. Just wtf? Ew!!

[@YamiyugiXenith]

Forgot to mention loveless that's another nasty af series that some ppl love.

[@YamiyugiXenith]

The only yaoi series I guess I can say I like so far is Kaze to ki no uta. I've seen a bit of gravitation it seems ok? Idk haven't finished it to fully know.

[@chl8760]

Honestly how are woman supposed to have more representation when even woman avoided those topics and prefer going for the male gender vibe, would drawing woman as the same as the feminine one of the m/m would help? make them feel more comfortable with female atonamy or something because of the androgynous

[@MB-tj7xh]

Woman don't need more representation. Woman need realistic representation. And Fujoshi aren't avoiding the topic at all. In your head the idea of projecting onto a male protagonist is bad. But there are actually many factors to this. In case of comics, there is a majority of comics being produced everyday, in serializations and publishing houses. The most famous of them are usually geared towards men and boys. Especially in asia women adhere to strict social standards as women and have to endure entertainment thats not catered directly towards them. So women are far more likely to sit through something they dislike than men. In fact the internalized misogyny comes very much from long exposure to these types of works. So once women, queer folk (and practically anyone not liking the male gaze) started to create something that explored a different type of narrative it happened with an air of irony and selfjudgement and freed inhibition. Also you have never read a BL. The types of bodies that are in popular works rn are muscular and tall. It isn't about projecting onto a frail waif but about showing that masculinity can have fragile beauty too. The visuals play a big role too. Sometimes things are just drawn a certain way because the artist ghinks it's fun or it's easy to draw (something you want to be sure of doing for the rest of the serialization time). More androgynous features are also just easier because drawing a full realistic male is incredibly hard. Drawing every muscle on a anatomically correct body (relaxed or non relaxed), body hair (incredibly hard and arsinine work if the story isn't centered on leg hair, it only distracts) and so on. So bam, protag is more linear, non hairy. All because of technical aspects.

[@chl8760]

@@MB-tj7xh It is wrong to always project yourself into a male character because literally the reason you do it is because of internalized misogyny and if you keep doing it it will only feed more, to the point where you can't like/make/read female characters, besides women do like those shows that are categorically for men, most of the fanart is produced by them, also you contradict a lot, you said that Bl have muscular and tall bodies and at the same time not, that it is very difficult to draw, the bodies that I mean are one like those of umibe not etranger and many others where the feminine male character could be easily be an androgynous woman, i dont understand the m/m can be unrealistic but the m/f and f/f not? I thougth m/m have very realistic topics, it was very uneccesary to correct me when you know what I mean by having more female represantion, of course I want it to be good, so whats even the point when woman would always prefer read/make m/m instead than do one of m/f and f/f

[@MB-tj7xh]

@@chl8760 u rly didn't understand what i said. When i said it's not always a fetish, sometimes it's a narrative device to remove urself from the character u read about, you somehow took it as "they all want to be men in their fantasy, that's wrong live your real lifes". Same with my comment about why the bishounen is such a traditional character in yaoi (like on technical terms being easier to draw than muscular men). And just bc it's a historically common trope doesn't make it untrue that modern BL tends to favour muscular mean more lately. Bl is evolving but it's unfair to judge from a western standpoint that on top of being ahead, is also just fundamentally different. I can't force feed you what you do not want to understand. Lovely day

[@chl8760]

@@MB-tj7xh Apparently you are the one who does not understand, you may like Bl for x reason or x reason, but that does not change the fact that you like it because of internalized misogyny and because it is simply an m/m relationship (that in itself makes it a fetish) that why the is" it removes you from the narrative but at the same time you can project yourself" is bad is because of the reason behind it like the one I said, and I don't understand the muscles part ¿what is your point? , it's not like the characters in bl are the muscular bara type ¿cant woman be muscular? , I'm saying that in many Bl easily the most "feminine" looking character could be a woman and since many women are not used to female characters looking like that with broad shoulders, thin face, flat chest that could change their perspective of femininity since they are attracted to the masculine/neutral characteristics of the Bl, also I don't know why you make excuses, just because it is from another country/región perspective doesnt mean we cannot criticize it, we can understand it, analyze it, but it does not mean it isnt wrong, women don't like to be around female characters because internalized misogyny and that's just the true if you just keep consumes it without resolving that problem it would just get worse but hey if you just want to keep watching bl just go, nobody is stoping you, its not neccesary to respond 3 day later just saying

[@averlinbc5680]

soo there are some wholesome ones with sexy stuff ….the m-preg can be really endearing ….Surprisingly When they’re more focus on childcare the not grooming type then it’s good …but yeah Consistent R ape… that happens in the genre makes it hard to find the good so I stick mostly to the non-sexual ones 😢

[@TastyToez]

In Yaoi everything is oversexualized and toxic but in yuri it isn’t-

[@Disapointedmellencol]

check your refs bro you made the same noralities mistake the child abuse isn't sexual in that report

[@pinkpanda6184]

It's annoying that it's way too problematic, I just hoping Kaze to ki no uta and Zankoku na Kami ga Shihai Suru to get into anime series but it's too impossible to do that

[@carolcorreia1245]

i'm too was bombarded with bl manga lol

[@JayDay04]

I was into boys love as a teenager, I'm not into it anymore. I can say with confidence that it was a fetish for me. It definitely is a fetish for most of these girls you see around on the internet shipping two male characters together.

[@YamiyugiXenith]

Can u explain how it became a fetish?

[@chongus927]

Honestly I feel like the rise of webtoons has perpetuated these bl that are all about sex and only sex. I miss when the genre was filled with stories forced to a six chapter limit that had to actually think about plot instead of going on for 40+ chapters of mostly porn. :|

[@psychotophatcat]

"I miss when the genre..." When did this happen lol? it's only very recently that I'm finding a pretty consistent pool of non-s3xualized BL content. I've been reading BL since Gravitation was new, and the genre has only gotten more varied and less focused on just s3x over the last two decades. Once upon a time, Gravitation was pretty much the only BL you could buy in the U.S. that didn't have explicit scenes. Chalk that up to BL being considered a genre of er0tica no matter the content back then, though, not for lack of options. I'm grateful for webtoons giving so many varied options now! I never thought I'd find so many more BL romcoms, for example.

[@chongus927]

@@psychotophatcat honestly I don’t stand by my opinion at all ur super correct 😭

[@chongus927]

@@psychotophatcat I do think a lot of webtoons have more fluff when it comes to plot bc the format allows for it and even encourages it - but that is not sexual content related

[@Videosrigolo]

You know that thing about yaoi that is even tho you dont know what yaoi is you may have been introduzed to it already , because a lot of anime has gay scenes or parodies, I remember watching lucky star and one of the characters is at an anime convention and She picks up a yaoi manga, not only that, naruto, death note, kuroshitsuji and many, many others have really gay sus scenes

[@keekeekakakookoo]

I HATE YAOI RAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[@starbites1984]

i don't think that women should be completely restricted from consuming mlm media or men should be restricted from wlw media. i do however think it's a huge problem if you're watching these shows for your own s3xual gratification. it's exactly why there is such a high amount of unhealthy, abusive and toxic bl and gl media. it's because its been co-opted from the lgbtq+ community and being sold to people who don't sympathize with these relationships because they won't ever be in one and who view them as "forbidden love" or "other". btw, being a part of the community yourself doesn't absolve you, in fact, it makes it worse that you'd treat others, who you know struggle just like you do, as your favorite p**n category.

[@banananananananananananana.]

I wish I could just find bl stuff that was written by gay men for gay men. For a while I was paranoid about becoming one of those girls when I was like "oh my god guys are so cute together" until I realized i was just a gay trans dude so now I look for bl stuff to project onto instead of fantasize about. It's really annoying when the entire fandom is 13 year old girls who read it because cute boys, and 36 year old wine moms who read it to be scandalous. We need to have like a different word for stuff for gay men and stuff for straight women. Not to gatekeep queer media or anything but I just wish there was a better way to separate the fangirls from the gay dudes.

[@psychotophatcat]

To claim that most older BL readers are "36 year old wine moms who read it to be scandalous" is a tad dismissive, don't you think? Most AFABs in our 30s in online spaces who read BL have been reading it since we were teenagers, and most of us aren't cishet, either. Also, I understand wanting to find something written for and by gay men, but there is a lot less transparency with that stuff in Japan in particular. A lot of gay men use female pseudonyms for their work so they can stay safely in the closet. Same thing goes for a lot of trans women and trans men writing genres they "aren't supposed to be a part of." You would be surprised to find out what stories are written by whom a lot of the time. Also, the previous commenters suggestion to look up "bara" should be taken with a grain of salt. It is, by and large, still erotica, and the term is not used in Japan to mean "by and for gay men" the way Western audiences somehow decided it does. It is often refused as a label by artists whose work has been popularly categorized as bara. Just read what resonates with you and stop worrying about who wrote it so much. You might never know who it really is behind the pen, and if you're too caught up in figuring that out, you could be dismissing the work of someone just like you who isn't out.

[@stinkylayni4835]

@@psychotophatcat oh, i had no idea it wasnt used in japan that way, thank you for letting me know!

[@henri3170]

Well yeah, BL is mostly made by women for women, so it is fetishistic, nothing wrong with that.

[@Lunakitty1234]

Yeh and not all are pron anyway. wholesome BL also exist . I love BL but not cuz it’s a fetish but cuz I love romance fiction in general- i also like Yuri and shoujo :)