Fake Martial Arts RANT|HME TaiChi, Adam Mizner

irratonality is a helluva drug

[@eastpaw]

Scientist here - sorry, but that's not how you apply the scientific method. It's a very common claim by non-scientists that martial sports make things "scientific" because you test on a large scale under fixed rules, but that is purely incorrect from an actual scientific perspective. Primarily, you have a problem with not testing what you think you are testing and failing to put in sufficient controls. What we get are match-ups between individuals under specific rules, so we have variance in (1) representativeness of the individuals, (2) the pros and cons of each method and specific fighter against the other, (3) the condition of each fighter on the day of the match. We also have (4) limited applicability of the conclusions only to said rule set and (5) extremely small sample size if we are attempting to understand the art rather than the fighter. So the claim is that we are testing the art but we aren't. And even if we realise we are only testing the individual, we must also recognise that what we have are extremely limited findings. This is not to say that pressure testing of all sorts isn't useful, because it very much is. It's just not science and just isn't all that helpful for understanding which arts are flat-out better/worse. As an example, BJJ absolutely dominated the early UFCs because (1) there was deliberate selection of lower quality non-BJJ fighters back then, (2) the rules have always favoured BJJ, and (3) the idea of groundfighting was novel to most people then. So people enthusiastically proclaimed that BJJ had been scientifically tested and proven to be the strongest martial art. Nowadays, BJJ isn't perceived as anywhere near top-ranked as a primary style in MMA; so what happened to all that scientific proof? Besides the fact that science works on falsification rather than proof, this is also a clear demonstration of how the ring isn't anything near a piece of scientific apparatus. In this specific case, you have made the claim that you have seen enough evidence that "stuff like this" is fake that you can safely conclude that it is. That is very much the opposite of how science functions. Here you are making the mistakes of (1) putting what you have personally seen into the same basket as Mizner's stuff (representativeness problem, as well as misidentification problem) and (2) thinking that you can prove non-existence (you can't prove a negative, and science operates on falsification rather than proof). Let's talk about counterfeit money for a moment. There is real money and there is fake, and there is almost no way for an average person to tell the difference between a good fake and the real deal. The existence of fakes does not automatically demonstrate the non-existence of the real thing, and it is an easy mistake for a non-expert to put the real and the fake in the same basket. I expect you may push back here by arguing that if you have sampled a few times and only pulled out bad money, then it becomes statistically less likely that the population contains real money. The problems here are that your sample isn't actually very big at all (how many fakes have you personally witnessed or at least watched on video?), that we quite possibly have severe class imbalance here (there is a lot more fake money in circulation than real), and that you have limited ability to tell the real from the fake (only by actually meeting someone and having them fail to work their "magic" on you do you have data on them). And again the representativeness problem looms large - money is either real or fake (binary) but skill of any sort is a continuous variable - so it is possible to meet someone who has real skill at a low level and mistake them for being fake, for instance, and it's extremely difficult to decide if someone deserves to be labelled a master. Quite ironically, the appeal to science by non-scientists is more often than not anti-science. It's pretty much irrational faith in many cases and I would much prefer that people who lean on science first learn it. Perhaps this comes from my years teaching undergrad stats and neuroscience, but it does make me frown when people invoke the S word incorrectly. On a separate note, I'm very much NOT a fan of Mizner for various reasons, but he's not a fraud. His students aren't just fools playing along with him or whatever. It's really pretty clear from watching him move that he's highly skilled in what he does. That said, I'm not at all convinced he could just walk into the UFC and win, but then again he's not a professional athlete. Take a good teacher or talented amateur from any recognised fighting sport (boxing, MT, BJJ, etc) and throw him in the UFC or One FC right away and he's not going to do fantastically well. Ring/cage skills and conditioning are extremely important for sports competition. Additionally, in my view, what he and his students practise is very much just what they practise, and it's not fighting. There are elements of what they do that are transferable to combat though, and it probably wouldn't take a lot to prep Mizner for a proper fight, much as a weightlifter or sprinter or other sports person would have an advantage compared to an untrained person being converted for competition fighting. And the advantage would be bigger for Mizner and crew because what they do practise - sensitivity to a partner, antagonistic force manipulation, grounded force generation - are more immediately and directly applicable to fighting than weightlifting or sprinting are. Finally, what he does isn't magic at all. It's just subtle enough that people who haven't experienced this sort of thing would find it hard to make heads or tails out of it. Incidentally, I do find that he couches his practice in too much mysticism and I don't admire that. But not liking his explanations and philosophies shouldn't be reason for us to dismiss what he can do or, worse, claim that "stuff like this" must all be nonsense.

[@martialgeeks]

So first of all I appreciate an in depth comment, second of all as I said multiple times all my positions are tentative and subject to revision, with that being said, I'm pretty sure you have missunderstood certain points I made, or at the very least I didn't make them clearly enough, I am very much NOT proving a negative, nor have claimed that martial arts are science or that all of this is "nonesense". Now, in no way am I doing what you describe as "Anti-science" because I'm clearly not even trying to conduct scientific method(s). I'm keeping this a purely propositional logic disscussion, from which my entire viewpoint on Mizner emerges, I might have used analogous points about science adressing specific previous comments that would include somd disscussion about science and pointed it out. Now back to Mizner, I've said previously there can certainly be value to some of his teaching with respect to actual combat, though the massive problem is right here; there are specific CLAIMS that can be evaluated by me without envoking any science talk. Most importantly above them all is the claim that you can make someone jump from touching their fingertips by channeling Chi... Now that there is very simple to evaluate, no scientific credentials needed. That's a heavy claim that holds HEAVY burden of proof, it should be matched with EQUALY HEAVY evidence that supports it, it all boils down to that. As soon as the burden is matched with evidence I'm the first to be convinced, no further talk is neccessary. Once more thanks for the comment

[@eastpaw]

​@@martialgeeks Hi there. Thanks for your considered response. Apologies where I have misunderstood or accidentally misrepresented you. Moving on to Mizner etc, I am 100% on board with not believing his claims (or anyone else's) without experiencing them firsthand. I also agree that some of the things he does fly so far in the face of common sense that it would be absolutely silly to accept them at face value. That said, there is a clear difference between "I'll believe it when I see it" and posting a "rant" video about how all this must be fake. This is part of what I consider anti-science, because as scientists what we do is leave the conclusions for after the experimentation. Whereas making a public statement about something based on personal belief is... well, you see where I'm going with this. Again, I'm not a Mizner fan, and I'm also not convinced that he can send a fighter across the cage with a chi zap. But that's my personal stand and not scientific knowledge, so it would not make sense for me to try and convince others about this belief using the name of science. On another note - and feel free to disregard this entire section because this is about personal experience - there is some "weird" stuff out there that actually is real, and there's no need to invoke mystical concepts like chi. At least in my experience, "magic touch" type ability that is actually useful in a fight comes from nuanced movement of the body backed by a specifically trained fascia/tendon network and nervous system. And so far as I'm aware, the people who train these things for combat (especially those who have taken part in full contact tournaments) typically don't look at all like they are performing magic when fighting. They just hit harder than you would expect them to and in somewhat unusual ways, move a little strangely, and counter throws and grabs in odd fashion. Quite often someone who has not trained in these methods don't even realise there's anything going on that isn't regular kickboxing or MMA when they see these people in action. The "silly magical stuff" is more often than not a part of training rather than a demonstration of combat. Much like you wouldn't do push ups and sit ups in a fight, but you would certainly consider these legitimate training methods. Of course, as you have rightly pointed out, there are also a lot of frauds out there who perform similar looking things as evidence of supernatural ability, and some of these people have had their faces bashed in in actual fights. Many of these don't actually know how to do even these exercises at all, so they are frauds in every sense of the word.

[@martialgeeks]

@eastpaw thank you, I think I understand what you specificly mean now, as we seem to really agree(at least about the important things). I might have wrongly presented this video as an objectively verified conclusion based on science that other people should also find convincing, that was not the intent, I don't write scripts for these videos so that might have muddied my delievery. The video is simply my observations and tentative positions that I have reached SO FAR, and at it's core it's a propositional logic problem. I have no veryfied conclusion outiside of my lack of belief in Mizner's claims based on a very humean principle of "rejecting the higher miracle" and Occam's Razor. I'm always ready to believe a claim that's proportionaly backed by sufficient evidence, so far there's none of that in Mizner's case, as every piece of supposed evidence does not survive the basic scrutiny by Occam's Razor. Therefor I reserve my belief until it's such time that it'd be reasonable to have it. I don't hold an Active belief that this is all fake, that'd be a positive clam on my part and I would be adopting the burden of proof which in my current position I can't meet. Here's the core of the issue, there are differences between; I believe this is not true. And I don't believe that it is. My position is the latter, otherwise I'd be making an unjustified claim myself (which would be what I assume you were criticising) which really wasn't my position at all. ✌

[@eastpaw]

@@martialgeeks really appreciate the civil discourse, mate. Turns out we aren't really very far apart in our thoughts.

[@martialgeeks]

I Appreciate it too! Genuine and healthy open disscussion/debate is what the world needs, besides too often the disagreements turn out to be confusion from lack of precision and/or friendliness.

[@spero360]

Radical skepticism is blind and adjacent to sophistry

[@shadowfighter6445]

I remember when I watched these different fight videos from the Gracie challenges to the famous MMA VS Tai chi fight in china which made me the open minded skeptic that I am today ☺️. Also great callback from the last Livestream 😄👍.

[@therealchristophernomiddle376]

The famous MMA vs "Tai Chi" video is such a joke. The "Tai Chi master" clearly doesn't know Tai Chi and isn't a master. The MMA fighter defeats him easily of course as practically anyone could.

[@zaneivy]

I don't mind scepticism, but a sceptic shouldn't be dogmatic after just watching a video or hearing a narrative.

[@martialgeeks]

Yes, there's no dogma on this channel at all, ever

[@marcioduque3564]

You are comletily wrong my friend, you should go there and fight against Mizner and only aftyer that you could make your freek opinions

[@martialgeeks]

That's a fallacy, here'a a question, are black widow spiders dangerous? If they are how do you know until you get bitten by one? Answer is You DON'T have to get bitten to know since it's part of our accumulative knowledge gained through prior testing...same goes with Mizner, I'd be happy for him to try and make me jump and fly by just touching me like in his demos, so far no reason to believe that's possible because of out accumulative knowledge gained through prior testing

[@acidjonny6760]

​@@martialgeeksyou are so great in saying you don't have to test something for yourself because it's already tested by someone else. That's sheer belief. Not knowing. Comparing an black widow bite that could kill you to an experience with your own body is just weird.

[@martialgeeks]

As I've clearly expressed before that the specific example in qurstion is not directly analogous, did you miss that part in a video? That's okay Because that's not even the point as I'm explaining the Default position which is reasonable to hold UNTIL you get further sufficient evidence like "feeling it for myself"...jeez seems like you guys bith have trouble with thinking and listening

[@davidsaltman]

Just saw the end clips. Nothing "magical" there. Still confused.

[@markocuckovic7938]

u could just shorten the whole vid to the final sentance and call it a day ngl but very well explained good job.

[@oekaloeka]

You almost have the same face as indefenceofmartialarts and as narrow minded as him 😂😂😂😂

[@martialgeeks]

You have almost the same two comments here👀

[@andymax1]

The magical shit, I am aware of Mitzner, there may be something to it in my opinion, I have been shown a few things in Ninjutsu which are perhaps related to Ki/Chi powers, my most important take away from it was mental states, self belief, it is so important, you can only do what you think you can. I have pulled off techniques before in training that are absolutely jaw dropping, these would have never have been attempted without the belief I could do them. It is also the area I am least interested in, pulling it off once is a what the Fcuk moment, super cool but you need consistency, physics and biology that I can understand, chi powers I don't know how to incorporate that.

[@martialgeeks]

I do think general internal martial art stuff is fascinating, meditation, awareness of the body etc. All that actually is cool, my problems are with specific claims that overshoot the purpouse of internal teachings and have no good evidence supporting it, but if you like I talked to JamieLovesMartialArts ona a Live and he does internal stuff and we touched upon that topic I'd recomend that conversation, cheers

[@indefenceofthetraditionalma]

Love this

[@davidsaltman]

Not clear to me what you are arguing against. The 2-second clip of Mizner does not meet your "given" of "touch - fly." He threw the guy with a traditional push-hands technique. Am I missing something?

[@martialgeeks]

There's so much footage of him doing it though and an insane amount of videos doing all kinds of nonesense

[@Dan53196]

Met one of his students and when it came to strength against strength I was stronger, but when he ‘sunk Qi’ (whatever that means), I pulled and he pulled and he catapulted me across the room. It was quite strange the way I accelerated, it was like I had grabbed ahold of an elastic band at full stretch, even though I just grabbed his arm and tried to pull and I got thrown across the room. I don’t think the guy could beat me in a fight per sé but he definitely did something different than just muscle on muscle. The guy said Mizner is a thousand leagues beyond him; he had been learning by correspondence and attending seminars every so often. I’m sure there are fakes and phonics and I’m not sure it works when someone’s trying to knock you out, that’s a different matter perhaps, but it definitely does something and it beats simple muscle force when you go strength against Taiji. Physically I was stronger (I’m a former amateur boxer and workout often with weights). First hand experience trumps conjecture. I was very skeptical as well. I thought ‘I’m not gonna be a dick but I’m not gonna just go along with it.’

[@martialgeeks]

That's pretty cool, unfortunately it's just another personal testimony, they alone hold no weight or convincing power, cool to read non the less

[@Dan53196]

@@martialgeeks it convinces the person 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Dan53196]

@@martialgeeks ultimately all facts come from personal testimony. Scientists give personal testimony to the experiments they perform. They write papers documenting their results that are written in such a way as to persuade other minds. Their peers give personal testimony to the efficacy of their theories or results. You have to be careful that you haven’t developed an anti-conspiracy. If no evidence at all, wether it’s personal experience or the experience of a multitude of others is credible, you run the same risk as a conspiracy theorist where the belief becomes unfalsifiable. Like a flat earther when you show them NASA photographs and they respond ‘of course NASA would say that! They’re in on it!’ Then, any conflicting data that doesn’t match the conspiracy is immediately denied and reincorporated back into the conspiracy. This renders the theory unfalsifiable if no conflicting information has a chance of being correct. Science works from falsifiability. If just one piece of evidence showed light doesn’t travel at the speed prescribed by relativity, we would have to assess the whole theory. Good theories are good precisely because they allow for and stand up to falsifiability. Just Believing something isn’t true and then saying ‘any video or photographic evidence or testimonial evidence is inadmissible’ what have you got left? By the way, there is a reason why witnesses are used in courts. It’s literally called ‘giving evidence’. Photographs and videos can be given as evidence as well. I could understand being undecided, but making your mind up that something isn’t true and any evidence to the contrary is bullshit is not logical thinking. It also gives you a strong confirmation bias.

[@martialgeeks]

@@Dan53196 yep, never said it doesn't

[@KeniLeeBurgess]

Control the narrative, control their minds. Back in the day, a person stepped up on the lei tai and proved his skill. Xu Xiaodong made it all clear and look what happened to him. Reality destroys the myth. People know more about their fictional magical religion than they know about real science. This states a lot.

[@alexanders562]

This does look like a job for the Amazing Randi to sort out. "Magic" is always just a trick you don't understand. Clearly we have seen these tricks. The martial arts skill is getting the trick to work on someone (opponent) at least once. IF we have concluded it is not staged, then it is worth looking into.

[@orsat.ursus.strazicic]

The ending is GOLD. Present the evidence or Shut the F*** up :D

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

Tau ch i has proven itself recently not only in sanda but also in the cage. For starters see " Tai chi vs. wrestling( maybe greco roman) shadow xu". Also "tai chi in mma? I saw one technique " - fight commentary breakdow". Theres at least 15 others if the you tuber here wants me to present the,m I'll do so. He is ar teast 3 years behind the times. If you say fake martial " artists" exsposed. You are correct. But tai chi os not a fake martial art.

[@martialgeeks]

Agreed, Tai Chi is great, my friend who's also on youtube Alan does it and has used it in the cage, it's just the particular things like the HME Tai Chi that's problematic

[@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe]

​@@martialgeeksThank you but then the title should have the words fake " martial artist" not " martial art".

[@martialgeeks]

I might change it, but I consider his variant of Tai Chi a martial art on it's self, so that's why it's titled this way

[@andrewmckay5103]

Mizner started with Henry Sue, im sure his guys would-be happy to reciev3 you, and your challenge, or go and challenge Mizner, and see fir yourself. But personally, I think he would destory your fragile little body.. I grew up around Adam, dont train with him or his style. But he would destroy you. HE HAD TALENT 30 Years ago. So I dont believe he would have faded. Ive also boxed with world champiinx and bedn around soms great mma fighters and other adtists of all kinds.. But lets get real for a moment, you wouldnt even tell a guy in my country to shut the fk up when your out drinking a beer, cause you would get smashed mate by an average scrapper..

[@martialgeeks]

Wow, With that many insults thrown at me it would've helped if you'd at least written a readable and coherent comment, regardless, as I've said before, even if we imagine for the sake of argument that I get smashed by a "ScRaPpEr" or even Mizner himself through conventional means... it would still NOT be evidence for the specific claims I'm attacking in these videos!

[@ancientexercise8973]

Have you thought about meeting somone like Adam mizner? I've never met him, but he's meant to be OK at Martial arts. Maybe you could meet him or somone that does similar stuff

[@martialgeeks]

I'd likely enjoy meeting such a person If I had a chance to, ready to change my views as soon as the burden of proof is met

[@ancientexercise8973]

@@martialgeeks That's fair enough. What country are you in?

[@martialgeeks]

@@ancientexercise8973 far away Croatia

[@ancientexercise8973]

@@martialgeeks does anyone in Croatia do tai ji?

[@martialgeeks]

@@ancientexercise8973 heaven't heard of any hme schools, but plenty of chinese art schools...none in my town though

[@onemanstampede9881]

You hit the nail on the head.

[@julianroninbb]

I find it interesting how egotistical a lot these so called "internal" Martial Artists are. To me it seems that many have a superiority complex due to unaddressed insecurities. Which is a big reason why they never pressure test their "skills". What I also find interesting about the internal peeps who are apart of the Mizner &/or Damo Mitchell group is that they are super into people like Andrew Tate & Donald Trump 😅 They often seem to post about them on FB.

[@martialgeeks]

the Tate and Trumpet man comment is soo true hahahah, cracked me up🤣

[@TheTrippnotist]

I am an "Internal" ("So called") martial arts guy who currently trains in Baguazhang and Wu Taijiquan. I also box, wrestle and train Muay Thai clinch work (I offer that for context, not to claim to be in any way 'badass'). I totally agree that a lot of IMA people are delusional in their beliefs about the efficacy of their skills, but this doesn't meant that there aren't skills there that are fairly unique to these methods. It's also true, in my experience, that these skills can be highly complimentary to the skills of the various combat sports, but NOT replace them. I believe Mizner has real IMA skills, but that they are interwoven with cult psychology, suggestibility (I'm also a professional hypnotist, so have a fairly rich perspective on the psychology and nature of suggestion) and showmanship. Whether this is for the purpose of ego gratification, or marketing or something else is anyones guess. There is no magic in IMA but there is method and fairly unique skills developments (the 'internal' bit) that are perfectly functional, but only when functionalized. Those skills can also form the basis of magical looking 'party tricks' too (that require specific set ups and appropriately coached and/or suggested engagement), but that doesn't mean the skills and methods themselves don't exist. As a postscript, I will also say that the superiority complex isn't unique to IMA - most of the boxers at my gym believe without question that they could beat a good Muay Thai fighter under MT rules. 🤷🏻

[@martialgeeks]

Well yeah, as I've said before general IMA isn't the problem, even the discussion wether Mizner posseses certain genuine skills outside of the obvious "tricks" he performs isn't relevant. The core of the issue is claiming combat abilities that don't seem to be demonstrable...like sitting in a couch pretending to move a person around with ease, once you claim such a thing no further skill analysis is needed, just evidence that you infact CAN do that thing.

[@TheTrippnotist]

@@martialgeeks I was actually addressing the person whos comment I replied to rather than addressing anything you were saying in your vid, but yes agree re claiming the party tricks = combat ability is nuts

[@YangTaiChiKungfu]

Love your statement at the end. 😀

[@user-kp3hd9wr4w]

dont just talk, meet them

[@martialgeeks]

None where I live, plus I don't need to meet them to critically evaluate their claims

[@user-kp3hd9wr4w]

@@martialgeeks lol, then this video isnt credible because it is just talk

[@martialgeeks]

Credibility has nothing to do with this LOL, you don't have to listen me if you don't want to

[@user-kp3hd9wr4w]

@@martialgeeks it has anything to do, it means you are just talk

[@martialgeeks]

@@user-kp3hd9wr4w yeah ok, logicaly valid and sound talk is a good thing, ps. I'm an actual fighter that tests his stuff against resistance so that's more than Mizner does already, but ok

[@zentrucker]

4:47 "a justified belief". This one statement alone make your whole argument pointless and yes narrow minded. You see that statement makes clear that your are talking about belief. and by definition beliefs do not have to be proven. You may be making some interesting points, but as lone as you are talking about beliefs and proving beliefs you don't have any grounds to stand on. 0: 35 " why is it that when somebody is sufficiently skeptical and rational enough That essentially ask for evidence...?" Because you are challenging a belief, their belief. and while you are challenging their belief you are not presenting any evidenced that what they are experiencing is not a true experience. and if their belief is not harming them, what is your beef with it? Now if you had actual proof of fakery then of course present it. But just picking on someone's beliefs just because you don't share them, well, that might be why they would and could call you narrow minded.

[@martialgeeks]

No dude, that's not even in the close to how burden of proof works, study some propositional logic first...please don't do apologetics for scam artists like Mizner

[@sinbachatanovivire5122]

Newton was alchemist. All the explanations and evaluations are there for honest people who want the truth

[@martialgeeks]

Indeed

[@infinatetakemusu]

You do need to be skeptical especially around motive, faith/trust in reality is what you need to move forward in anyway in life. My question is what does Mizner claim to be doing? Is he a hypocrite according to those claims?

[@martialgeeks]

Skepticism is key, Mizner claims that he can make people jump from static positions with chi powers...him or any of his students have never actually demonstrated that in an actual fight/sparring ever

[@Farzadhoss]

I'm participating in a workshop run by Adam's younger brother, Gabriel, at the moment. Just like many others I had no experience with the subtle skills and internal mechanisms of Taiji. So I wanted to get direct experience myself. Now, mind you, Gabriel does not claim that he is at the level of Adam, but he is, nonetheless, capable of taking you off your feet and throwing you around without much effort just like what you see in many videos. To the outside viewer with no understanding of the inner processes, it looks like he is doing magic and honestly for an inexperienced person like myself, it does feel magical also. You basically lose all control of your body with what seems like a very light touch on the other end. So the takeaway is, the taiji skills you see demonstrated by the DT group on youtube are real. But contrary to your claim, they do not advertise their teaching as a way to get good at fighting or sparring. Nor do they claim it is comparable to MMA or something of the sort. In other words, the ad isn't "come learn taiji and fight people!". In fact, I have never heard any respectable taiji master say that the goal of taiji is similar to MMA or boxing. Instead, the idea is to develop the skills of taiji and through those develop greater understanding of yourself and cultivate your being. I'd definitely recommend trying out a workshop to try it our for youself.

[@martialgeeks]

@@Farzadhoss kzbin.infoM1gBdN1ZGsY?si=XGOMrpvV6TIeOXzo

[@JOHN18042]

​@Farzadhoss Yeah, that's bull. Lei Tai fights existed back then, and guess who competed? TaiChi practitioners. The most famous one being Chen Fake another being Yang Luchan. Now before you say the name itself Taiji and Taichi are different, no they are not. Taijiquan is considered a martial art and was/is used as such. Yes there is the watered-down health/meditative version associated qigong. To state that any "self respecting" master would say that's not what it's used for is flat out lying.

[@martialgeeks]

Best Comment

[@cisekarcade5072]

Just learn to build lower dantian my friend. It takes a little time, but will definately give you different perspective on the internals. You must condense and build a little to feel how to steer your "inner engine". You don't even have to train with the internal training methods, just pump yourself effectively with heavy bag training combined with calisthenics and celibate. It will also build your dantian in a few months. When You can make it and feel the internal pressurization, just know it is just the beginning and foundation for internal arts.

[@martialgeeks]

I have no problem with the concept of "internal" martial arts, I still do Wing Chun forms, the problem I have is with specific claims that have no evidence supporting them, for example sitting in a chair and effortlesly making people jump around by a simple touch

[@redlotustaichiandqigong9166]

So you need your feet to ground yes? Then when you sit you are essentially sitting but stretching your spine, you are still grounded. So therefore you will still have connection to the floor via sit bones and spine or vertebrae if you prefer. He is extended in his facial web. Creating elastic force all tai chi principles are adhered to crown extension also two forces one up and one dropped into gravity. He still has three points of contact with the ground like when you are standing 🧍. The technique is still valid. He validates the technique on the student. Very simple but needs so much training that most cannot achieve it. Unless you practice every day. Once a week warriors have little to no hope in even opening their bodies enough to create the conditions needed to succeed in the tai chi 🌍

[@martialgeeks]

@@redlotustaichiandqigong9166 so you say sitting in a chair and making a person jump like that is real? You can be almost untouchable? 🤔

[@redlotustaichiandqigong9166]

@@martialgeeks no not jump, control only with sticking energy In Taiji specifically Yang but not seen anything like it in Chen style Taiji.

[@martialgeeks]

@@redlotustaichiandqigong9166 you do see the problem with that? Moving the person like that with "sticky energy" looks EXACTLY the same as someone pretending to do it...so claiming it to be true can't survive the basic scruitiny of Occam's razor, most people when attacking this type of stuff point out how deeply pseudoscietific hme teachings are, I don't do that because I don't need to, all I do is point out that the burden of proof still hasn't been met

[@colmrooney414]

LOL well I do see where this skeptisism arises, its very suspicious the jumps and reactions students make when Mizner moves a hair on his arm "Qi", that does inherently exist, however its not a superpower. My only preposition is that he exaggerates the effect for teaching purposes, because relaxing and yielding to force does sometimes sway the opponent to keep going, where he was going. integrity is power, but yes I agree honesty is also important. I presume he might use intimidation, or psycological domination, what he calls presence, to perform these acts. the question is, would that be considered ethical and practical in fighting? I'd say maybe

[@martialgeeks]

I appreciate your honesty really, but the problem so far is that there's no valid evidence presented to warrent a belief in such a thing, burden of proof is on Mizner and his followers and as of yet they haven't shown anything sufficient in that regard

[@andrewcampbell9068]

It's not evidential, it is experiential. Get in the ring and see for yourself.

[@martialgeeks]

I made a whole video about that, besides anything can be reduced to a set of propositions, that's why propositional logic is king

[@acidjonny6760]

Just go and feel it, or feel it not, for yourself. That's your evidence. Especially in things like this, where the measurement is through the touch of another human body.

[@acidjonny6760]

But clearly you are interested in taichi, so why don't you just try it. You don't have to "fight" an taichi sifu. You just let him feel your tension in your body, so you can understand what it's about.

[@martialgeeks]

@@acidjonny6760 I'm done explaining myself in comments, feel free to watch my two most recent videos on thus if you want to understand my position

[@Scoottoots]

Funny how everyone wants Adam and others like him to go out of their way to prove to people like yourself. Trust me, they are too busy enjoying and devloping their art to feel the need to prove it. That would be a neverending task as most poeple doubt what they do is real. One day we will know a little more about the human mind/body, and then all this will be explanable in terms the average person can at least understand cognitively. The real proof, if you need it, is in experiential understanding through training with someone like Mizner, or the many others that have dedicated decades to learn deeply enough to acquire the skill. Our common understanding of the forces of nature, including our own nature, is painfully incomplete. I have seen and done things that 95% of humanity would say is utterly impossible. We have a long road ahead of us. My best advice is to keep it open ;-)

[@martialgeeks]

Cool, I am keeping it open, I always state, I reserve belief until it's time that it'd be reasonable for me to have it, and ofcourse we want them to provide evidence, because they're the claimants, that's how burden of proof works, cheers

[@Scoottoots]

@@martialgeeks I think what you are missing is that they are not claiming anything to convince others. Like most people on KZbin, they are just documenting and expressing their interest for those who are on the same page. So their is no 'burden of proof' required of them. Another thing that perhaps will help shed some light is, because Tai Chi is an internal art, it is practiced alongside Chi Gong, which is a training in internal energy develpment, balance, and control. Chi Gong can be practiced for health, spiritual, or martial reasons. So tai chi practitioners have a very deep art to immerse themselces into. The benefits and potentials are far greater than martial skills or fighting. The litmus test of tai chi then is NOT how they would hold up in a ring, as that is not what they train for. The focus that Adam, for instance, applies to his training is just one aspect. Many others prefer to emphasize the chi gung (nei gung) training for personal or spiritual development and internal health and power, rather than to gain energetic manipulative power over others. Raja Yoga and zen meditation are other examples of similar mind/body energy training, but I don't see many videos trying to debunk the concept of enlightenment or kundalini awakening. Adam Mizner's practices are just his preference of training that aspect of the energetic and consciousness potential within us all, that very few are interested enough in or have the apptitude to train for decades in. Hope that helps ;-)

[@martialgeeks]

@Scoottoots no worries I'm familliar with internal practices and chigung, but the burden of proof deffinitely IS entirely on them...given if they want to convince a skeptic, of course that if they don't then it doesn't matter, but an epistemologicaly sound view is that the claimant holds the burden of proof, Adam has shown time and time again on what he believes can be done against an "mma style takedown", against muay thai kicks etc. Those are specific claims that require sufficient evidence to warrent my belief

[@Scoottoots]

@@martialgeeks For sure, if he ventures into saying what he teaches holds up in sport fighting, then yeah he needs to demonstrate that in a real world manner. The bulk of what I have seen him do though is in keeping with tai chi training, developing the forms properly with energetic internal skills. The vast majority of practitioners have no illusions of tai chi being an effective fighting art. It can be, but it's not something you can reliably teach to groups and see them become skilled at fighting in a few short years. The real attraction is in all the internal, psychological, health, and spiritual benefits. The martial aspects of the form are a means to that end. They create a structure that is effective for that development.

[@martialgeeks]

No, not sport fighting, just Fighting, wether it's confined to a rule set or not is stil fighting

[@YongnianTaiChiUSA]

Excellent presentation

[@michaelfox3486]

Yeah yeah, spend your money, go see him. I want to see your face on video after you pull off whatever Wudang skills you think you have. I didn't believe it either until I felt it. He is the real deal.

[@martialgeeks]

Why is it so expensive though? You see why people find that suspicious, pair it with the fact that even if it we grant that it's real it still looks exactly the same as someone faking it, you can't tell by a video, but I gotcha I'd love to test it out too but for now it's hidden behind a pay wall and no one seems willing to show it on a skeptic outside of the workshops...

[@jasonboi7466]

I don’t understand how not one of Mizner’s critics have been to a seminar and found out for themselves what’s real or not. This has been going on for years now. I get that you might not be in a position as your smaller channel perhaps doesn’t earn enough revenue (if any) to afford the trip but you’d think the larger channels that have put a lot of videos out criticising Mizner would have made far more from said videos than would be needed to actually go and find the answer. Instead, it’s just more of the same pointing the finger and voicing an opinion. So what’s the purpose? Is it that these critics are happy not to know, in case they let the cat out the bag and ruin an otherwise healthy stream of income? I just can’t see another reason to keep voicing these same opinions, publicly. If anyone truly wanted to know, they’d just go.

[@martialgeeks]

Well, you've probably seen that most youtubers go the route of debunking his videos, because for every single "technique" claim Hme guys make there's a far more likely alternative for it. I don't make any revenue here, so I go and explain my position in response to clams that were being put forth for me to evaluate, but also the seminars and workshops are way to expensive to attend, so given the fact that these propositions can't survive the basic scruitiny of occam's razor, no skeptic is willing to pay that much for something that is from their perspective likely untrue, Red Lotus TaiChi has left a comment and we had a thread conversation here, even though he makes similar claims to hme guys he understands why it's important to answer these critiques, nothing would make such internal arts grow than consistently and publicly convincing skeptics...without them attending workshops because the burden of proof is always on the claimant

[@jasonboi7466]

@martialgeeks I don’t see how Occam’s Razor applies to a situation void of hypotheses. When the truth is an easy to establish fact, there’s no requirement for assumptions. I totally understand your position and why you wouldn’t want to spend the money, it is expensive! That being said, the other channels that make thousands from their videos would be more than able to attend and find the truth, if they so wished, so it’s clear that they don’t. I would add that the claims being made are not claims upon others, so there’s no requirement to prove anything, people can take it or leave it. It’s not like the council claiming you owe them money without a contract etc. Furthermore, when you say that there are better alternatives to Mizner’s “techniques”, you are basing this from your one-sided perspective and having never tried Mizner’s art, you don’t have any leg to stand on making such a comparison, so your argument falls flat because it’s just assumption and opinion without any merit, whatsoever. Again, any sound mind must conclude that this is just about making money from views as opposed to getting to the truth as there’s literally no effort being put into understanding what is happening in Mizner’s videos, there’s only pointing the finger and shouting “fake!”.

[@martialgeeks]

@jasonboi7466 no, sorry but I have to say that your "mind" isn't sound (at least not in this case) if you don't see the application of occam's razor here, besides, me not having tried hme is irrelevant to the point I'm making, because even if I sucesfully falsified a certain claim made by Adam, that doesn't falsify any other "internal art" claim of similar nature, the base position should be "not convinced" because these claims can't all be true, but they all certainly can be false, for example George Dillman and Adam Mizner both claim abilities attributed to chi, yet they both have different explainations of how they work, so should I be accepting all of the different contradictory claims without good reason, or should I not be convinced until there's good reason to be?

[@jasonboi7466]

You should not be convinced until there’s good reason to be. This is my main point but if you aren’t convinced, why would you or any of the other critics, make so many videos of your opinion without ever trying to establish the fact? Being unconvinced is fine, making video after video of the same biased opinion is a strange pursuit, if it’s not about money. I can see the application, but It’s my opinion that Occam’s Razor is irrelevant because you’re not trying to get to the truth of something that hasn’t been proved before, you’re trying to assert an opinion on something without having the experience of it, which happens to be available to go and try for yourself. This is why it is relevant that you try Mizner’s art, because all you are saying otherwise is that you are entitled for him to prove something to you. Why should he spend his time going around proving things to you? If you really wanted to know, you’d just go and try it. Personally, I don’t believe George Dilman’s claims and I don’t believe in no touch knockouts, that’s a ridiculous notion to me but if I wanted to find out, I’d accept that I have to go see him and not expect to demand he prove it to me like I’m of some significance to his life. I’ve never even tried karate! How could I expect so much from him? I might believe he’s a fraud but that doesn’t mean to say I can expect and demand from him based on my belief that he’s a fraud -especially when I’ve not even bothered to go and try his claimed abilities. I believe the subtle body can be influenced and moved slightly without touch but I’ve not experienced it so it remains a belief (although, I don’t believe that could in any way be used for combat). If I was to go and experience it, then it would no longer be a belief and the truth would be found, however many people it’d take to find someone to be able to do it to me. I wouldn’t need to make ten videos or more saying why I believe it’s fake, do you see my point?

[@martialgeeks]

@jasonboi7466 so firstly I've made videos as responses to comments and discussions that were put forth to me, secondly; everything can be reduced to a set of propositions, knowledge is a subset of belief, belief can either be justified or not, now as you said a person doesn't have to answer a "demand" of proof to you personaly, Adam doesn't give a damn about what we say and that's okay, though the problem with that is that sufficient evidence is rationally required for a reasonable person to be convinced, whether you agree or not, the claimant holds the burden of proof, I can only state that fact and hope people understand it.

[@back-seat-driver1355]

not quite clear what you are going to say and your intention... pah, talking, chatting - is worthless here in that case!

[@oekaloeka]

You have the same skill as indefenceofmartialarts means no skill😂😂😂😂

[@martialgeeks]

Yes we suck

[@oekaloeka]

Yes and not a little 😂😂😂😂

[@oekaloeka]

For sure you suck it looks really silly you better stay in your books maybe you can learn some special techniques 😂😂😂😂

[@therealchristophernomiddle376]

This is tough because you believe you know based on watching videos on your cell phone and lack the common sense to understand that you are speculating and nothing more. You should gain knowledge thru a direct experience instead because then at least you would have something thick and of value to offer rather than a thin fairly obvious troll of other peoples videos.

[@martialgeeks]

I lack common sense? Only valuable knowledge is direct experience? You realise how absurd that is? Knowledge is justified true belief, plenty of justification besides "direct" experience... if you think direct experience is the only valuable basis for judgement then you should go and see what happens when a black widow spider bites you...by your model since you've never had that direct experience it means you can't trust people when they say black widows are venomous...but that's absurd...

[@plantstho6599]

Science doesn't claim chakras to be real, yet I can see them. They may not be there for you, but they are quite real for me. Science just doesn't have the tools or language to investigate them yet.

[@martialgeeks]

Well you can be convinced of anything for personal reasons and I won't judge, I can simply point to the fact that science is the most reliable tool we have to build models of reality, chakras could end up being real but my belief is reserved until they have been demonstrated to exist

[@plantstho6599]

@@martialgeeks Scientific inquiry takes its direction from philosophy. In order to become a scientist, you earn your Philosophy Doctorate. To understand what direction science is headed in, you look to philosophy. I can say with a degree of certainty that science and physics is currently under restructuring. Especially so once AI and humanoid robots become a thing, with sensors and reasoning far above our own.

[@martialgeeks]

@@plantstho6599 well ofcourse, science is a system of methods derived from epistemology, skepticism, inductive reasoning, empricism etc. all comes from philosophy...

[@plantstho6599]

@@martialgeeks point being that materialist philosophy is currently being challenged

[@martialgeeks]

Sure, but I don't care or believe in the "materialist vs spiritual" and stuff like that...it's all about wether things are demonstrable or not...

[@klausreicht6288]

Man man, ihr redet echt alle Nonsense

[@martialgeeks]

Thank you LOL

[@gold-fever.prospecting]

Why don't you go take a class with him instead of running your mouth. If you truly want to inquire then go do it and stop acting as though he or anyone else has something they need to prove to you personally. Your not the gatekeeper of knowledge or truth.

[@martialgeeks]

Well Because I like not wasting money, besides he doesn't have to prove anything to me, that's not the point...oh and also it's You're*, not your.

[@gold-fever.prospecting]

@@martialgeeks meaning you don't want to put in the actual effort or resources to understand what your commenting on. You want others to do the work of real inquiry so you can hide behind false intellectualism masking a life never actually lived.

[@martialgeeks]

@gold-fever.prospecting I don't go asserting things about other people's lives behind a keyboard, I could say the same depricating stuff about you but I didn't and I won't, oh and btw I said time and time again, if an opportunity to train with any hme guy that's not hiding behind a pay wall opens up I will

[@gold-fever.prospecting]

@@martialgeeks You post a video accusing Mizner of being a fake and say HME is "putting up a paywall" and then you say you aren't attacking people behind a keyboard? Do yourself a favor and cultivate some real clarity of intention- put in the effort to deserve to be taught something rather than just attacking what you don't understand and acting like others should just give you the answers to the universes mysteries without any exchange of energy. If you do this as is often the case those people who have real skill will share what they know with you because most people who have developed skill are also exceptional human beings. I am not interested in arguing with you. I am just trying to point out for your benefit that you are off base publicly attacking someone who has spent their entire adult life sharing their wisdom and ability in a world where both things are in short supply.

[@martialgeeks]

@gold-fever.prospecting yes, anyone that has NO credible evidnce not only of fighting but of general practices comporting to reality can and will be called Fake, until they present sufficient evidence, I've actualy tried being nice anf measured to you people, but it's all crap from you guys, desperate to get the moral highground while worshiping a snake oil salesman, anyways, won't argue here anymore I think we can both agree that long comment disscusions aren't the way to go

[@sinbachatanovivire5122]

The fight behind you ...pfff..the level is so low on a sport point of view....fight a cuban you will see....

[@martialgeeks]

That's really not a fight though is it? Nor is my level relevant to the disscusion at hand...plus why Cuban? Do you think nationalities have to do with skill more than hard work and training? Jeez lol, this is one of the best comments ever

[@sinbachatanovivire5122]

@@martialgeeks you are training hard...🤣more stretching please and don't loose your balance all the time..perhaps better

[@martialgeeks]

🤣 man you're hillarious, less youtube commenting would do you good

[@Bourne246]

My Tai Chi teacher was a street fighter... is that enough evidence for you neck beard?

[@martialgeeks]

Are you serious?

[@Bourne246]

@@martialgeeks won most, lost some.. got sucker kicked on the chin once.. bar fights, got nearly beat up by a gang while walking alone at night... also happened to be a club DJ.. heavy smoker, heavy drinker..

[@martialgeeks]

@@Bourne246 but none of that's evidence😂 you come in with an attack of my neck beard and present this bs, jeez, I didn't even attack tai chi as a martial art, I know it's legit, it's the woo masters that ruin it 😶

[@Bourne246]

@@martialgeeks well i do apologize for getting personal. Yes i do have beef with some of these "masters". Again i apologize.

[@martialgeeks]

@@Bourne246 well crap, I already made a short video response because your initial comment was funny and mind boggling tbh...I do accept the appology though✌