LET'S ARGUE: Old Rap Was Better

Other topics include nu-metal not being trash, and Monday being better than Tuesday.
Edited by Ryan from Downhill Media:
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/ @downhillmedia
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[@TheOnlyBasketCase]

Let's agree: We should let Melon run as president because then every American will be sponsored by a slick minimalistic nifty metal plated wallet that fits right in your pocket.

[@JonathanRojas1993]

I’m down let’s sponsor this sick son of a gun 😗 Edit: mom I’m famous 😁

[@kodilane6624]

Why are you like this

[@luisconde6201]

@@kodilane6624the real question is why not, nobody is more patriotic than Anthony. 🫡

[@eliasmg9144]

The billionaire human centipede has already convinced me to vote for him

[@user-jr3zr2mp9c]

Thick bulky leather wallet industry is in sewerslide watch rn

[@Nuvizzle]

Survivorship bias is a real thing. People in 30 years will be saying the same shit because only the best of the best will be remembered. This is just universal, like you see people saying videogames were better 20-30 years ago because today everything is just a remake or a sequel, meanwhile they completely forget about all of the dozens of terrible movie or toy tie-in games and hundreds of failed attempts at creating a mascot platformer that were released every week in the 90s and 00s.

[@keithjackewicz8423]

Survivorship bias is real, but it does seem to be the case that the shit that is called good now in basically every art form is less good than the shit that was called good in the past. (On average, that is.)

[@yommish]

@@keithjackewicz8423 IDK if this is a real phenomenon, but it seems like a lot of stuff gets called “classic, iconic, legendary, groundbreaking, etc.” nowadays on social media. It’s like good ain’t good enough anymore. People also love to declare things the greatest of some genre or era that they have no business talking declaratively about. “Kind of Blue, best jazz album of all time. I’ve heard Mingus and Coltrane, but nothing compares. This is the height of jazz music.” Like bruh

[@leaffinite3828]

​@keithjackewicz8423 "it does seem to be the case" aka you feel like

[@Advent3546]

Lets Agree: the editing for these Let's Argue openings are awesome

[@TreyDZd]

Bass intros were better tbh

[@fortynights1513]

Definitely, especially the first hot takes are bad video

[@Advent3546]

@@fortynights1513 I'm driving the KZbin Bus to KZbin- planet.

[@Deathfromabove5]

I'm really happy to see more of the old school "thatistheplan" influence in these newer Fantano videos.

[@kylonhollier838]

nah bass intro better

[@Motownisyourtown]

How can someone say that there was no unique rap pre 88 when in the early 80's it was literally a new genre where every album was unique due to its infancy?

[@artfuldodger5933]

Because they first listened to dozens of newer albums which refined and built upon many elements of those early releases. Your general point stands, but their (time-warped) perspective is understandable, no?

[@zzZZsSkK]

@@artfuldodger5933true. Its a double edged sword type of situation. On one hand yes it was a new genre and era of music and the creativity was there because of the fact that it was those very records that established what it is we consume now. But some age poorly and some age amazingly and the innovative aspect of it doesn't provide a leg for the point of quality, and creativity to stand on. There's albums from the 2000s that are legendary but aren't nearly as creative as others albums at the time and its only due to the barrier breaking type things it accomplished and not the actual creative aspects ( it could be ). Music is so damn confusing and cool man... 😂

[@artfuldodger5933]

@@zzZZsSkK Agreed!

[@unit--ns8jh]

I did a dive into 80's hip hop last year, because that was (probably still is) an era I didn't know much about, and what surprised me is that those beats have actually more in common with modern trap beats (just really stripped down) than 90's golden age beats 🤔 Lots of good stuff even though it probably won't be my favourite music genre anytime soon 🙂

[@b1nary_f1nary]

Yeah cos nowadays everyone is using 808s for the drums again.

[@t-god2439]

Lil Wayne “I can’t feel my face” off the drought 3 I did not know for the longest time until recently that that beat was from the 80s

[@lordjugga168]

​@@b1nary_f1naryAgain? They never stopped

[@smizzomgmt9957]

90s was the golden Era. 80s rhymes are a little too basic

[@fantasyguru26]

@@smizzomgmt9957 80's rhymes a little too basic? Absurd. Many of the GOAT emcees were at heir peak in the 80's - Rakim, KRS1, Chuck D, Big Daddy Kane. I take 7 MC's put em in a line Add 7 more more brothers who think they can rhyme Well it'll take 7 more before I go for mine Now that's 21 MC's ate up at the same time Rakim "My Melody" 1987 Got a bum education, double-digit inflation Can't take the train to the job, there's a strike at the station Neon King Kong standin' on my back Can't stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac A mid-range migraine, cancered membrane Sometimes I think I'm goin' insane I swear I might hijack a plane! Melle Mel "The Message" 1982 They tell lies in the books That you're readin' It's knowledge of yourself That you're needin' Like Vescey or Prosser We have a reason why To debate the hate That's why we're born to die Mandela, cell dweller, Thatcher You can tell her, "Clear the way for the Prophets of Rage Chuck D "Prophets of Rage" 1988 I can find many more great examples of rhymes like this. Not to mention that the delivery of these rhymes were even better than the content.

[@hitomukawakami7124]

That teenager crapping on Kind of Blue is truly the one who “doesn’t get jazz”.

[@shirashirashirashirashir]

Theres always been a flair of criticism towards Kind of Blue that claims its inferior to his other classics though. Too smooth, they say.

[@hitomukawakami7124]

@@shirashirashirashirashir that’s the point, though. It’s kind of blue, not entirely blue (lol). But there’s even an eleven-minute twelve bar blues track on side b, “all blues”, and it has a lot of bounce to it. Flamenco sketches is a beautiful performance. I really don’t understand the hate towards this album. I really don’t.

[@HandleMyBallsYouTube]

This is almost word to word my exact thoughts on that take. Also feels kinda like scapegoating Kind of Blue out of frustration that your friends don't get jazz, none of my friends do and that's fine, not everyone has to be into every genre, not everyone has to ''get it''.

[@ywtcc]

For me, the "golden age" of rap was in the early 90s. Tribe, Nas, Tupac, Wu Tang, Biggie, to name a few artists, and comparing what they were putting out with what came before is really remarkable. Before that, I kind of feel like the genre was treated like a novelty/trend by most artists and producers. There's interesting similarities between European dance music and American rap music, in terms of production techniques and equipment used. A lot of early rap music seems a lot like an American version of house music, and it's in the early 90s where a stylistic split happened, and rap moved to being more expressive, and not so rooted in simple dance beats. The widespread adoption of digital was around the same time, not so coincidentally. So, these artists in the early 90s were the first to get to play in that playground, which is a really good recipe for innovation and creativity.

[@abhinavvatsa7832]

Rakim, Slick Rick, BDK, KRS ONE, Kool G Rap were novelty? DJ Premier, Pete Rock, Large Professor were novelty? Bruh

[@doodlebug1820]

I get the feeling people dont remember the Soundscan revolution. The whole system was biased against rap until the retail music stores adopted a more detailed accounting aystem which revealed that rap was selling massive amounts of music in the suburbs to affouent people ajd was in fact one of the most profitable genres. This was around late 80s mid 90s and that is why it seems like a switch was pulled and the game chabged.. because a switch was literally pulled and the game literally changed. In business offices the executives realized the huge amountnof money they were leaving on the table by ignoring hip hop so they turned the entire industry around to change how things were done. A case of data analysis overcoming precinceived notions that were simply incorrect.

[@mamba4817]

The whole 90s

[@leandru7]

My first jazz listen was Kind of Blue, and to me it just sounded like "...this just sounds like jazz." To someone who doesn't already listen to jazz, it can be hard to understand what sets it apart and it might just sound like "another jazz album" like it was to me. So I think it's generally a terrible recommendation for a first jazz album. Since then, I've decided to listen to some jazz playlists made by Spotify to give me a more diverse look at what the genre has to offer, including more modern stuff than the bebop era the Kind of Blue comes from. This approach has given me a lot more appreciation for the genre tbh.

[@summerwoodsmusic]

What album would you actually recommend? I had the very same experience listening to Kind of Blue!

[@leandru7]

@@summerwoodsmusic I’d probably recommend listening to a more modern album. One of the first I listened to was “Black Focus” by Yussef Kamaal. Jazz funk stuff might also be easier to digest if you’re unfamiliar with jazz, so Herbie Hancock’s “Head Hunters” might be a good first listen. Or maybe other funk like Snarky Puppy, though I haven’t dived too deep into their music.

[@summerwoodsmusic]

@@leandru7 thanks!!

[@jenconvertibles]

its still a top 10 jazz album of all time though

[@ASSEMBLOTRON]

Listen to Black Saint and the Sinner Lady as my first, never found an album as good as that since.

[@johnnymack4716]

When it comes to old hip-hop, shall we say the C.R.E.A.M. rises to the top?

[@kirilichushanka1357]

That's not really "old school" technically speaking.

[@darian_grob]

@@kirilichushanka1357it’s 30+ years old

[@DollaSignD]

I mean it's good but there's just so much great stuff that's pretty similar

[@kubaknauber4213]

yeah wu tang (especially 36) is a great record And i think its the most common album to recommend for somebody who want to hear 90’s rap

[@ch.illmatic]

It's great but there's a lot of great stuff in that era by Nas, Hov, Biggie, Jeru, Gang Starr, Kool G...

[@viceroy_raygun]

If Kind of Blue is boring then you're not actually listening to it. That being said, Round About Midnight from a couple years earlier is probably the better album for anyone completely new to Jazz. That's Hard Bop at its finest, and one of Miles' best albums.

[@BigSmiley0TV]

Idk kind of blue is one of my trapped on an island albums. I would certainly take kind of blue over maybe anything he did till he completely changed again and entered fusion with bitches brew, and then I can't compare much, but love both, but i can almost always put kind of blue on and begin to fix my mood

[@viceroy_raygun]

@@BigSmiley0TV Oh yeah, Kind of Blue was my first exposure to Miles (and jazz at large) and I wouldn't begrudge anyone saying it's his best. It has the reputation that it does for many reasons, and it's a superb album. I just think that Round About Midnight is a little more emblematic of the hard bop of the 50s, so for somebody who is looking to get into jazz it would probably give them a better idea of what the general trends were at that point in time. Miles was always a trailblazer. Plus the standards on that record are some of the most played of all time; tunes like All of You and Bye Bye Blackbird will give a listener a really good idea of the kinds of tunes they can expect to hear from most jazz artists.

[@thecorbohole3637]

Kind of Blue is a classic but Silent Way and Get Up With It are always what I'm going to reach for first, that said, they tend to be a harder sell for people who aren't already willing to accept jazz than something like Kind of Blue, Midnight, or Birth of the Cool

[@viceroy_raygun]

@@thecorbohole3637 In a Silent Way is so sick, and I know it's cliche but I really love Bitches Brew as well. Honestly I could close my eyes and point to a random Miles album and I will probably dig it 😂

[@thecorbohole3637]

@@viceroy_raygun Honestly like Melon was talking about, trying to sell somebody on jazz can depend a lot on what they accept. Somebody with super white-bread tastes would probably turn their nose up at On the Corner, but I know some people who it got into jazz because they come from cultures that it incorporates elements of. I'm historically a rock guy who tends to prefer Miles's fusion-ier stuff so Silent Way especially is my personal bag.

[@die_cuteste]

Wild thing is, in Germany this is already reality. there’s a bunch of mainstream rappers who received money from online casino sites to mention their names in song lmao German rappers are the kings of selling out 3:23

[@dustasdu]

Online casinos? Lmao that is terrible

[@prototype8137]

American rap is the most ingenuine on yhe planet. Dont be dumb.

[@Berrkuiz]

tbh german mainstream music scene seems pretty awful in general. so awful that i'd say it's even worse than other european scenes. it's honestly impressive and I've always wondered what's the problem here.

[@ogbmt]

It's been happening for a long time. I'm pretty sure Lil Wayne's mention of burger king on 6 foot 7 foot was a paid mention. A more clear cut one is Vince Staples - Norf Norf with the opening line "bitch you thirsty, please grab a sprite", which was followed up with at least one commerical he filmed for sprite.

[@overseer605]

@@Berrkuiz Mainstream definitely. Underground rap in Germany is super versatile and has so many good artists.

[@hungryluma27]

Let’s argue: Old rap is amazing and deserves all the love in the world, and newer rap also deserves its flowers for innovating and bringing us so many unique voices. Rap has always been great :)

[@HimK22]

A lot of the mainstream rappers nowadays aren’t very good but overall their are still amazing rappers to this day.

[@HitoriGnocchi]

what “innovation” are you referring to? outside of rapping the same type of way, autotune, same trap/drill beats, it all sounds the same.

[@GrinchyGreen334]

@@HimK22Now this I agree with 💯💯💯

[@Darksaviuor]

⁠@@HitoriGnocchiah, you just ain’t looking at the right artists. plenty of different and great stuff out there

[@intelligentsociety8596]

As the guy in the video I could not agree more. I probably worded it a bit badly but the point I tried to make was that every era has its kendricks, drakes and lil xans.

[@plumpygod]

let's argue: there's more to rock than listening to it while sitting on a rock

[@squatchjosh1131]

I would argue with you but I'm finding the ass bruising from all this rock sitting a bit distracting at the moment. I need medical attention.

[@wolfmoon6360]

@@squatchjosh1131 😆

[@zackamania6534]

There’s more to rap than listening g to it while creating a burrito

[@CatFish107]

Tried making a drum&bass track once, without knowing anything at all, apart from the name of the genre. Missed the mark by an entire hemisphere, but it was fun to do.

[@LOCKEYJ]

It’s hilarious that a commenter pointed to Taylor swift and Kendrick as examples of authentic, connected artists

[@boogiemayesmusic]

ive always said this. monday is alright because its new, wednesday is halfway through the week, thursday is like basically friday, and fridays great. Tuesday is a real piece of work

[@JustARapAndAnimeFan]

Facts

[@milesgarrett2663]

Tuesday by far the worst day I can’t agree more

[@bruh......2005]

Monday is a reminder of your reality so it's definetly alot worse

[@boogiemayesmusic]

@@bruh......2005 yea sundays are kind of a bummer too

[@Fairway_]

Having to go back to work/school after the weekend sucks but mondays always fly over for me for some reason. Tuesdays always feel the longest

[@ajplays-gamesandmusic4568]

I feel like RAP and Country songs are already contain ad-reads. Country has ad reads for Jon Deer and Ford Pickup Trucks. Rap has ad-reads for Fashion brands and high-end liquor.

[@Ryan48219]

I think that rap is a very "of the moment" genre in a way that you don't see in other genres, and for many it's also tied to their youth and a sense of rebellion. Most people gravitate to the rap they loved in highschool and college because it was so relevant to them and their tastes at the time, and disliking rap from before or after that period comes from their own age and aging rather than a real problem with the genre

[@Ryan48219]

I think also that this used to be a big thing in rock too, but rock as a genre hasn't changed very much in the last few decades which makes the audience more able to appreciate older genres. If you talk to older fans, though, they're more likely to be really enthusiastic about their "period" of rock and less interested in older or newer rock

[@joeldukes303]

Word

[@dechthecomrade7791]

Lot to unpack in this white ass take

[@coldcreative4601]

I agree with that to an extent, but people act like there can't be any such thing as shitty music and artists. And as someone of this generation, I see more bullshit bogus artists getting play and recognition than the older ones. Metal went through the same thing when it was all dudes wearing makeup and big ass hair and this feels like that time period in rap. Now that it's become pop music, the sellout bullshit is REAL. I was lucky to grow up with good 90s and 00s rap being played and showed to me, and while there are definitely good artists and music still being made, the overall sound of rap rn is weak and watered down because it's become so mainstream and everyone got a computer and a mic and thinks they're the one.

[@umbrellabirb3206]

i'm only voting for melon if he brings the bass back

[@fearguyQ]

I just want to take a moment to say you're amazing for putting the video title hook very early in the video -- if not first. It's so refreshing and always makes me want to watch the full video even more because I'm not growing frustrated waiting.

[@dalluc]

I like to recommend A Love Supreme by Coltrane, it's not the easiest but it's such an intensely satisfying experience when you get into it. Olé and Favourite things are also great options. They may seem hard to get into at first but I believe they are actually easier to follow than hard bop albums which are mostly improvisations over lightning speed chord changes, these are modal jazz albums which focus more on the creation of soundscapes and emotion than tecnicality, even though they are incredible in the technical sense as well and can get very experimental, at least you're not getting 3 chord changes per second which might be a bit jarring for new listeners. Also I'm just a sucker for Coltrane if it wasn't painfully obvious lol. Oh, Head Hunters is another good one, it explores modality in a very approachable way and is funky as fuck.

[@benjaminhuber4116]

My go to intro rec is Roy Hargrove's Earfood - it's got such strong melodies and heavier, more modern rhythmic sensibilities that are easy to connect with and he had a killer rhythm section, Stasbourg / St. Denis in particular bangs, Gerald Clayton is just a monster on that song.

[@Warstub]

I've always found A Love Supreme difficult, so its not something I'd recommend to people. I guess its silly to recommend just one album or artist, but I'd recommend Coltrane as one along with Davis and Parker. Charlie Parker has the bebop groove and exciting rhythms, Davis for a laid-back cool, and Coltrane for something more complex (...?).

[@LaLaGrunge]

There was significantly more musical genre diversity in the mainstream even in the late-90s/early-00s than now.

[@zero8661]

Nah

[@izamalcadosa2951]

FACTS!! By a lot!!

[@zero8661]

@@izamalcadosa2951 what do you count as mainstream

[@colinrussell2017]

Too vague

[@cheesecakelasagna]

Imagine being this socially-insulated.

[@mathewsz2399]

i’ll admit EARLY early 80s is a hard listen but if u want quality 80s rap before 88 my recommendation off the top would be beastie boys - licensed to ill eric b. & rakim - paid in full

[@intelligentsociety8596]

no and yes, licensed to ill has aged horribly and Paul's boutique is way more enjoyable. paid in full is a w.

[@mathewsz2399]

@@intelligentsociety8596 PB is 89. and i agree to disagree with LTI

[@dabunnydabunny1243]

​@@mathewsz2399 The 808's on Licensed are insane and the rapping (as basic as it is) is fun as hell. I like it a little more than Paul's Boutique tbh.

[@utm0st]

Beastie boys vocals sound more like punk than hip hop tbh

[@samsca8529]

Run D.M.C. - Run D.M.C. Raising Hell - Run D.M.C. LL Cool J - Radio Public Enemy - Yo! Bum Rush the Show Whodini - Escape BDP - Criminal Minded

[@blakemeads9225]

If I were trying to get someone into jazz, and I was going with Miles Davis, I’d tell them to start with Tribute to Jack Johnson. I think that’s a pretty accessible record for newcomers. It’s also just really fucking good.

[@LuhXXofficial]

90s rap is good,2010s rap is also good,rap music just evolved and grampies are just mad, the SoundCloud era to 2020 was the most creative era of rap (to me) .

[@DimIsHigh]

The fact that this absolutely isn't the first time when I see people saying that TAYLOR FUCKING SWIFT is RELATABLE is a sign of some sort of societal and mental decline, I'm sure of it. Also fuck yeah Monday >>>> Tuesday, happy to see this doctrine being spread.

[@samsca8529]

I mean Taylor Swift is supposed to be relatable, that’s kind of the point of most of her songs

[@philogamer743]

Everyone knows the 90's was the best decade for hiphop

[@dsxa918]

Not washed out but with a production budget for the first time

[@smizzomgmt9957]

90s is the golden Era. So many new sounds and styles. And if you copied someone's sound you didn't have a chance

[@unchartedsteppes7138]

It was probably the purest time.

[@shashavengesayi6055]

The 2010s are a solid contender tho, if we’re being honest.

[@perfectallycromulent]

not if you like female artists. now is the best decade for people like me, regardless of type of music, it's now, because i prefer women's voices.

[@Ppppftt]

I feel like the modern metal/metalcore fandom likes nu-metal better than other more classic subgenres like speed, thrash, death etc. A nu metal revival would actually get traction with the Nik Nocturnal, PRMBA crowd in my opinion.

[@xerxes8717]

I think it’s funny PRMBA gets associated with nu-metal and metalcore when I’m pretty sure he isn’t a super big fan of either genre

[@Ppppftt]

@@xerxes8717 he isn't a fan of anything rock or metal to be honest. His audience is, though.

[@aleksanderpeciak4306]

what's up with cuts? they are not as fluid as in the past, or am I wrong

[@JorgeCruz-zn2vn]

I think we can all agree Slick Rick is waaaay better than any sound cloud rapper. He’s not even my generation

[@geoffreytbaker8724]

Tuesday is worse than Monday. Everybody feels terrible on Monday but by Tuesday, people expect you to have your s*** together.

[@TimWhitt]

True true

[@sweetdannyandlisa6537]

realest comment on here

[@JustARapAndAnimeFan]

Fr

[@SJ-ym4yt]

Plus that’s when the leftover tiredness from Monday really hits you

[@eaglesandowls]

Joke's on them. I don't have my s*** together any day of the week.

[@pane36]

That "Kind of Blue" take applies heavy to me. My dad loves Jazz, where as I went more down the extreme metal road for a decade or so. I WANTED to get into jazz, so dad would recommend me Kind of Blue several times throughout my life. Never made jazz click. In a Silent Way came close, and I enjoyed the record, but it didn't hook me. Ended up being jazz-laden hip-hop that got the sound of some silky sax to click. Namely untitled unmastered 06. and all of TPAB. Kind of Blue sorta gatekept me from the genre. I'm sure I'll come to appreciate it in due time, but it wasn't a great starting point for me at all.

[@Warstub]

Similar to Classical with Vivaldi's Four Seasons or Beethoven's 5th. I mean, personally, I still think Beethoven's 5th is a perfect symphony, but someone new to the genre has to hear Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Debussy and Ravel, at least to get a good grip on what Orchestral music has to offer.

[@fodientfoiter]

@fantano, I am not a rap/hip hop fan, but I know who the old school rap artists are. Let me tell you that in thrift stores, it isn't old school rap albums and cds that I see donated. It is the newer hip hop stuff, post 1995 and onward. But let me get back to you when I visit a few garage sales/swap meets/estate sales.

[@DrSteveBrule552]

Can you imagine vibin to a song and all of a sudden "hey guy today's track is brought to you by hello fresh and better help" then the song just keeps playing 😂

[@squamaadey1653]

rap adlibs with iphones and mcdonalds.

[@jamesw.9256]

Badabapabaa.. I'm lovin it (ay!)

[@bruh......2005]

Honestly i could see South Park doing and entire episode using this plot

[@hectoraguilar397]

Can only listen to the song with a pair of Raycons!

[@draco_1876]

Rap nowadays is crazy diverse and it’s influence on other genres is so present.

[@Jordannadroj20]

Thanks Einstein

[@nicholasdalby5178]

OH, they should listen to Miles Davis - ON THE CORNER, not Kind of Blue if they want to get into jazz and stick with my man Miles. That is a classic album imo 9:59

[@ungratefulninja4535]

I honor of HipHops 50th birthday, August 11th. Im playing mostly ole skool HipHop the whole month. ☮️ The 90s were HipHops prime imo

[@gulermo]

Let's Agree: System of a Down is never releasing an album again, and it's better that way, they had a good run, no bad albums, none of them are below 7 or 8/10, better to keep it that way than to force a new one and have it be mediocre compared to the hype created around it ( just like Tool with Fear Inoculum )

[@uncrownedoak7777]

Serj's solo material just keeps impressing me in different ways. One of his latest songs, "How Many Times" just makes me realize how standalone his skills are. I can definitely hear the creative differences when I go and listen to Scars on Broadway.

[@numbersix9468]

i wouldnt mind a revist of their old concert mainstays, i like seeing how artists change songs after playing them a ton of times.

[@Alex-lf2hv]

I was chatting with a schoolmate a while back who asked if I like jazz. I said I do but I prefer rock, so they suggested The Marz Volta. WOW. tMV fuckin slaps

[@prevailwithme]

Listen to at the drive in

[@Alex-lf2hv]

I’m actually more of an ATDI fan since I’ve checked out the two bands : ) but thanks for the still very good rec

[@itookallthenames]

Imagine in 2003 when it came out among boring pop punk and the tail end of nu metal

[@LITRLG0D]

Kind of Blue is a masterpiece. It’s just a vibe that you don’t put in on for every occasion. Blue in Green tears my heart out every time I put it on. I agree that it’s not a perfect starter album, but to say that it’s a snooze fest is effing insane.

[@MarsHottentot]

I like that Melon follows up the "out of touch artist" with a take about working the 9-5 rat race which, I assume, he hasn't done in quite some time. Well played.

[@shigeon2668]

i feel like a lot of people my age (i’m 15) think 80’s rap is lame because when they think of 80s rap they think of rappers delight (which wasn’t even made in the 80s) and run dmc and shit, but those were just the people that were mainstream and getting played on the radio. people like krs one and slick rick were rapping about shooting people and selling crack in ‘87 and ‘88 respectively (rick released la di da di in ‘84 which although not as extreme as Great Adventures was still way more edgy then what was being played on the radio at the time) and 2 live crew was rapping about sex and fucking bitches around that time too. and of course there was NWA who were doing all of those things at the same time, but to a much more extreme degree, resulting in them blowing up and exposing those themes to people who otherwise would never have known about or listened to that kind of rap music, which in turn skyrocketed the popularity of rap and set the groundwork for the themes and topics we now currently associate with rap music. so the point i’m trying to make is that 80’s rap is definitely worth revisiting if you’re one of those people who think it’s all corny lyrics and primitive beats, provided you’re listening to the real rap albums from that time and not just the stuff that everybody knows about.

[@casperthedumbassghost7164]

I feel like Run dmc is a bad example for 'lame' 80s rap, there's far worse shit out there and they have some bangers...Do people rly think run dmc is lame? Or since they were one of the biggest 80s acts just catch more of the heat?

[@OMGxITZxPACMAN]

So in order for rap to not be labeled as corny it has to be about sex, drugs, and violence?

[@shettywap]

I mean, people knew about what NWA was talking about. They had a certain idea of dark skinned minorities (poor, prostitutes, thieves, rapists, etc.), so that music just seemed to align with something like the Moynihan report, where that abject failure of the community was already acknowledged. Additionally, it coincides with the constant police presence, them acting the way they do towards blacks, etc. The main difference was that it was turned into a sellable commodity. 😂

[@shettywap]

​@OMGxITZxPACMAN pretty much. Even Melon doesn't dig oddissee for that reason. Dude doesn't swear in his music or talk about that stuff, but it's not hipster or thug enough, so he doesn't rock with it.

[@OMGxITZxPACMAN]

​@@shettywap I think that's corny haha. I can see if you're a kid listening to that stuff and you think it's "edgy" but Melon is pushing 40. There's no reason lyrics about "normal" things should be corny to him

[@mayorbingus]

I remember having a conversation with a music fan about this very thing. And he was younger than me.

[@johnnylegg]

song @ patreon tys? 10:47

[@Cash42]

If you’re tryna get into jazz you should try the John Coltrane Duke Ellington album, that’s a classic and one of my favorites, also one of the first ones I listened to

[@dalluc]

That's a good one, or the one with Duke, Mingus and Max Roach, Money Jungle. That album is beautiful.

[@TyRazor33]

Only if cal is VP..

[@nicholasdalby5178]

Yeah, Kind of Blue is an ADVANCED work by an ATG. I would actually suggest listening to Fusion artists such as Mahavishnu and Return to Forever if a person encounters this issue. But to say Kind of Blue is a snoozefest is only accurate to a very small minority of listeners. Coming from either a rock or hip-hop-centric taste base, I would say GO FOR SOME JAZZ FUSION if you don't yet understand the way Post-bop works which is understandable. In addition, it is important to know the instrumental talent assembled to acclimate bc the music is NOT carried by guitars or a synthetic beat. If they really want to go straight into jazz then listen to CHARLES MINGUS or some other hard bob stuff. Don't go directly into Ornette Coleman or something lol 8:45

[@skurwiel_ubity8184]

Whats the name of the song on the outro?

[@ryanshea6055]

someone please it sounds so familiar but i cant place it

[@thenerdyman2001]

The “old rap was better” take is one of the most old head inducing takes of all time

[@itsallenwow]

I can’t wait until 2040 when people are talking about how no one then will live up to Da Baby

[@deathscasm]

only new age rap album i can think of that is a 10 is tpab and i can think of many more 90s record that are 10s and that's why old rap better imo

[@kiwiofoz7954]

@@deathscasm albums don't have to be 10s in order to count as good, though. albums like rodeo by travis scott, flower boy and cmiygl by tyler, mbdtf by kanye and also gkmc by kendrick are all really great

[@stwish3910]

​@@deathscasmyou have a lot of music to listen to then. Especially billy woods

[@user-jr3zr2mp9c]

​@@itsallenwowLessgooo

[@kevincollins2761]

very thatistheplan intro

[@nicholasdalby5178]

Or in the case of Morbid Angel and Cryptopsy, they put out records that make listeners cringe due to nu metal stylings and leave a permanent mark on their legacies 7:28

[@stevenevol6304]

Puffy killed hip hop and the day it died for me was seeing Flavor Flav sitting next to him doing MPE💔

[@johanneskraglund2795]

I love how fantano talks about how we all know that Beyonce doesn't work a 9 to 5 job, and then afterwards talks like he does. 7:35

[@dafriendlyghost]

Are you saying he’s wrong? Or you just agree? cause he’s just illustrating the tweets idea.

[@johanneskraglund2795]

@@dafriendlyghost I just think its funny. Love the guy

[@climatebreakdownpodcast1990]

He clearly has a 40 hour week and a fairly structured work schedule, to be fair.

[@MustachioedBear]

Rarely anything good or unique before 88??? Just in 1987 there was Criminal Minded and Paid In Full.

[@loudiamonds1217]

Man, a whole 2 examples. You really killed that narrative.

[@MustachioedBear]

@@loudiamonds1217 just pointing out 2 extremely important and influential albums in rap history that fall under their weird cutoff date of 1988.

[@loudiamonds1217]

@@MustachioedBear you still didn't disprove the point about them being rare, because they were.

[@ladydontekno]

@@loudiamonds1217off the top of my head: - Run DMC- Raising Hell - Mantronix- s/t - Public Enemy- Yo! Bum Rush The Show - Beastie Boys- Licensed To Ill - LL Cool J- Bigger And Deffer - Schooly D- Saturday Night - Afrika Bambaataa- Planet Rock - Salt n Pepa- Hot Cool & Vicious - Stetsaonic - On Fire

[@loudiamonds1217]

@@ladydontekno man a whole 9 albums. All you people are doing is making the point of that tweet in amazing self owning fashion. And Afrika Bambaataa the pedophile??

[@VerboseDeBose]

I think an artist releasing a certified radio banger then putting an ad read on the streaming edit would get the point across

[@stephenfrancis303]

1987 eric b and rakim, public enemy epmd , marley mal stuff, you trippin the really early linn drum machine based stuff was a lil weak with that uhh huh huh cadence dressing like punk rockers with leather and spikes was rough, then run dmc came and changed the wave

[@RustleXer]

The take of ‘old rap was better’, it disregards completely the fact that with every generation of songs that there were some bad ones out there with it.

[@Python-xs2iv]

It's just true though. The 90s had some trash, but the current era produces way more trash

[@epicgamer2670]

​@@Python-xs2ivbecause it's so much easier to make music now, being able to download a DAW online is much easier than having to buy a whole instrument setup. The amount of artists has multiplied by an infinite amount since the 90s.

[@Python-xs2iv]

@@epicgamer2670 True, but when I compare the mainstream stuff to the mainstream stuff from back in the day, it doesn't compare

[@cubedmelons876]

@@Python-xs2iv Are you listening to ALL the mainstream stuff? Or just the mainstream stuff you remember from your childhood? A lot of popular music just gets forgotten because it's so mediocre.

[@Python-xs2iv]

@@cubedmelons876 A lot, but not everything

[@Apsburner9717]

Who can say no to this voting ad?

[@rateeightx]

I'm by no means an expert (No form of rap is close to my favourite genres, Although I do listen from time to time), I feel like there is some merit to the statement "Old Rap Was Better", But only if you A: Include 90s rap in "Old Rap", And B: are only counting mainstream stuff. While there is plenty of 80s rap I enjoy, It really hadn't diversified as much by then, Until the 90s when you're seeing all sorts of different hip hop subgenres arising or coming to prominence, Although my argument for that being better than mainstream rap music from the 2000s to today is mainly based on personal taste, I highly dislike the sound of 808 bass, Which unfortunately has been rather prominent in mainstream hip hop especially from the late 2000s through the 2010s. Of course when you look at more underground stuff, You can find that pretty much whatever your tastes are there's some more recent stuff you'll like, With even more subgenres now than existed back in the 90s.

[@Kekktye]

5:40 Gecs is the only real NuMetal influence I can think of

[@DameronCuff]

Paul Wall > NF lmao

[@EntNatal]

I remembered a conversation from Todd in the Shadows’ Song vs Song podcast where Todd and his co-host were talking about how modern rappers aren’t attempting to imitate Run DMC’s flow or sound, and eventually concluded that hip-hop as one of the most revolutionary genres is inherently forward-looking. I share that same view of hip hop, which is why the “old rap is better” argument doesn’t make a lot of sense to me at all. Not saying that rating old hip hop albums highly is regressive because it certainly isn’t - older hip hop albums are classics for a reason, and artists like Run DMC, Slick Rick, KRS-One, etc absolutely deserve eternal credit for pushing the envelope at the time. But saying that we should go back to that style as a whole seems incredibly antithetical to the genre.

[@powers_media]

I agree in that regression isn't an answer at all. The thing that's always missing from these conversations is context. it was such fertile ground. Every artist that was unique basically had to be, so every successful artist or group was indeed their own style, sound etc. The bigger picture of course was that biting was the worst thing you could do! You'd get called out and disrespected but not just by other rappers, by essentially everyone even somewhat connected to hip hop. Even if that meant just going to shows in the park in the 70's. Now artists do the same styles as each other with very little variation. the young cats have a lot to learn from the people who pioneered it. Today's rap is throwaway, where 80's rap is timeless. just my 2 bits.

[@giascle]

Lina has a name!!!

[@mraaronhd]

At the same time, hip hop certainly hasn’t felt the most forward thinking in the last couple of years. We’ve been stuck in this trap beat/mumble flow, and it’s just getting old.

[@MrOmega300]

Most people actually do work weekends.

[@quentinmonroe]

ME!!!

[@trash_bender420]

When Jor Biven endorsed the melanin man for prez I broke down crying

[@hdervish2497]

I knew there was a reason I had been hoarding squeezy cheese since the lockdown

[@phdfloppa9397]

Not to say that we should give a pass to ALL early 80s Hip-Hop, but people should remember that the sampling technology back then was so primitive that you'd be lucky to have a sample more than 5 seconds long, the fact that some rappers still managed to release classics that stood the test of time is why some hold them in such a high regard to this day.

[@halloweenfan158]

There is no classics from the 80s dude.

[@jinxed7915]

I'm not sure how bad sampling technology is relevant. You know you can just... make good original beats right? Hip hop from the 8os shouldn't be graded on a curve just because they couldn't sample things as effectively, because they didn't have to sample anything in the first place, and because there's more to a song than just a beat or hook that may or maybe not be borrowed from another song

[@MarillSweatshirt]

​@halloweenfan158 even for a fantano comment that's a serious ass pull, obvious troll or both

[@rubberglovesandwich9889]

​@@halloweenfan158You don't like De La Soul?

[@halloweenfan158]

@@MarillSweatshirt not a troll. Don’t really like fantano. Just subscribed to listen to musicians I haven’t heard of

[@TheNamesJER]

The comment about Kind of Blue has a decent point in that Time Out by Dave Brubeck or Mingus Ah Um are far more exciting entry jazz albums, but there is absolutely no need to call Kind of Blue a snoozefest.

[@joewatson6178]

What’s with the gaps in the editing??

[@David-bh6ce]

Let’s argue: every comment from a let’s argue video should start with “Let’s argue”

[@nomad1517]

The worst style of rap is mumble rap and rap thats tied to actual criminals. Everything else is good.

[@colbyjack1053]

I just think rap needs diffrent categories old school, trap , mumble and etc that will make rap more diverse instead of it evolving

[@lamarsemi7061]

Agreed

[@langijas-up3jz]

Kind of Blue is a benchmark album thou❤

[@relentlesseducator]

Imagine thinking all these pre-1988 albums: Criminal Minded, Paid In Full, Run DMC, The Breaks, and License to Ill, and Yo Bum Rush the Show, Fat Boys are Back, Schooly D, just to name a few sound the same? Absolutely crazy talk.

[@alejandromartinezmontes6700]

7:17 regarding artists being out of touch. Basically everyone is out of touch to some degree. Even in 2023, people have extremely diverse experiences based on where they were born, their ethnicity, their gender, etc. The best artists can either share their own perspectives on the human experience in an interesting way (that doesn’t require you to have lived it) or communicate basic human realities we all go through.

[@ryanrudolph5667]

4:13, we welcome you comrade Fantano

[@joshhuntermovies]

Review Barbenheimer

[@theboi5584]

Let’s Agree: The “Let’s Argue” intros are getting better.

[@FakeAdirTV]

agreed.

[@Morn__]

When people say that old school hip hop is better they usually refers to the 90’s (pac, biggie, nas, wu-tang…) not the 80’s. And I honestly agree with them

[@keyscored3710]

I mean when I think old school I think first wave rap like grandmaster flash and the furious five or treacherous three or funky 4 + 1, even folks in the 90's considered those records old school at that point

[@intelligentsociety8596]

That is true, but even then the point I tried to make, while yea using the 80s, is that every era has its shits. There are some albums I wish I never heard from that era.

[@deathscasm]

@@keyscored3710 hell no grandmaster flash id doo doo

[@Morn__]

@@keyscored3710yeah technically that is the actual “old school” but still most people refers to the 90’s as the old school because it was the best and most relevant era for hip hop. In the 70/80’s they pioneered hip hop but most of the music didn’t really stood the test of time and with the exception of a few artists like Pubblic Enemy 80’s hip hop is not very relevant today, the genre has exploded in his true potential only in the 90’s and artists from that era are still relevant and loved these days. That’s why most people think of the “old hip hop” as the 90’s stuff

[@20usuario]

80s is pretty underrated; Beastie Boyz, Run DMC, Ll Cool J, KRS One, Slick Rick, Rakim and Big Daddy Kane.

[@PerkolatorTheTerminator]

That intro really made me with El Mellono would bring back ThatIsThePlan. It’s been a minute, I think the internet needs its return.

[@invaderzimismyfav]

I'll be honest I didn't listen to anything you said in the end because I was hypnotized by the blue note animation

[@caman225]

That kind of blue take is wild. Hate for that album is just contrarian or posturing to look like a “serious” jazz fan who just doesn’t just like the basics. Liking spiritual unity doesn’t mean hating kind of blue

[@thegeist79]

Old rap may not have been better, but's it's impact was far more revolutionary and radical.

[@milk_bath]

You could say that about old rock and roll or any genre. Get back to the kitchen and let those takes cook a little longer because that was lukewarm at best.

[@karldubois5821]

Ya because they’ve had 20+ years to show the impact Modern rap is influential, it just hasn’t had the time to let that influence show itself as well

[@c-calibrated8608]

Because its old bro

[@karebushmarebu233]

Let’s agree: people only say “Music from ‘X’ era was better than the shit today” because only the good music from each era survives, meaning you only remember the good music from the past but have a constant reminder of the bad (and good) music of the present. This leads to a bias when in actuality just as much good (and bad) music is being released now as in the past

[@hammer9881]

Good point

[@Howitgoes799]

Ye, cause who is gonna want to remember all of the shitty music from the 60s,70s,etc?

[@cubedmelons876]

I got rid of that bias by just listening through some Billboard charts from past years, which is a pretty neutral sampling based on just the numbers. You really end up re-discovering a bunch of the mediocre garbage that everyone forgot about (and some forgotten gems as well). Some years are definitely gonna be better than others, and you might end up deciding that a certain era's sound is your favorite, but it's a lot more complex than just "Old music good, new music bad." I remember once I was nostalgic for the late 2000s, and decided to listen to what was popular in 2008. And yeah, there were a bunch of classics like Viva La Vida in there. But also it was a rude awakening as to how much shitty Chris Brown songs were huge during that time too, and it all sort of evens out.

[@boonboonsaga99]

I like the crow sound effects over the eagle

[@fantasyguru26]

As someone who grew up listening to 80's rap and hip hop I would disagree with the comment. There are several great hip hop albums prior to 1988 such as: Licensed to Ill - Beastie Boys Raising Hell - Run DMC Paid in Full - Eric B & Rakim Criminal Minded - Boogie Down Productions Schoolly D - Schoolly D There is also some crap rap from that era as well.

[@nateds7326]

Yeah of course it was just like old R and B was better, old rock was better, and old pop was better. Almost like the old stuff that survives does so because it's special and incredible and the stuff that sucks gets forgotten, leading to an inflated sense of grandure for the older parts of genres. Weird.

[@jamosbigjaw1791]

Ye, I personally really like the limitations of older music in terms of technology too, idk y I always feel like it enhances the music somehow.

[@NaturalSnowInMyDreams]

KEEEGAANN!!!!

[@bluegrasscreek5663]

I hate numetal but i do think it had a huge impact, i think the aggression and jost going on pure emotion is very close to like say early xxx or suicideboys, maybe even lil pump. Idk the energy of it and that soundcloud kind of rap feel very simaler to me

[@QZaccardelli]

How do I know that one guy is a serious noob?? Tuesday used to be the day of the week all new albums were released.

[@chuckslemino]

Can't even do one presidential campaign without making it political. Nice job fantano.

[@DMZZ_DZDM]

I cant believe Logic is running for president

[@akshaypatel518]

6:00 is that vinnie p?

[@AshleyDownTranmissionSociety]

as a pro youtuber did you intentionally do the monday . tuesday thing straight after the out of touch thing

[@HOWEZY4769]

90s rap shits all over modern rap. Yeah they made of had a hard on for using samples too much but at least the samples sounded unique and different the majority of the time. If I hear another rap song with heavy abuse of auto tune and an 808 I think I'm gonna cry lmao

[@milk_bath]

Shh, everything is okay now grandpa; go back to bed.

[@HOWEZY4769]

@@milk_bath I'm 26 lmao

[@milk_bath]

@@HOWEZY4769 How sad. 😥

[@HOWEZY4769]

@@milk_bath yeah I'm crying rn

[@nessleepk]

4:14 instead of DJ tags we'll get "Dr Pepper on tha beat" followed by adlibs mimicking a soda can opening

[@user-pv7vc9kp9k]

imagine a carti album with a fuckin skillshare ad

[@tmsphere]

The first guy must've never heard Raising Hell.

[@christie_brown]

4:33 idk melon that pun was pretty solid 😂

[@RevolutionaryLoser]

When I was young we would play Kind of Blue during Christmas every year. When I got my first paycheck I bought it on vinyl for my Dad. I know it's one of the most famous albums but I didn't know people were recommending it. I don't know how I would get them into jazz honestly. Try The Low End Theory maybe. Watch Cowboy Bebop. Play Ape Out. Seems like a tricky game.

[@AHeienMusic]

I think “Kind of Blue” is a perfect entry point for jazz. It’s stylistically not so old that it sounds dated, and it doesn’t get into the more technically proficient parts of jazz that sometimes turn people off with “millions of notes”.

[@JarrettMehldau]

​@@AHeienMusicYes, it also drops you right in the classic era of jazz. You can get back in time from there to hardbop, bebop, swing, or you can move forwards towards modal jazz, spiritual jazz, post bop, fusion. And following the musicians' careers, who played on it, is a perfect way to explore the genre as well.

[@murray9807]

Billion dollar singers stop being common joes after a while, you know who doesn't? Their song writters.

[@flnks8856]

Old was better but I like having both. New aslo quite good.

[@sahilbaherawala575]

Yes