Fantasy Author Reacts to EPIC THE MUSICAL (Vengeance Saga)

[@nitrogenfixed]

33:32 I can't believe you didn't immediately burst out with saying it because YOU WERE RIGHT. THE OCEAN IN HIS GRIEF. HE IS *LITERALLY* DROWNING IN HIS GRIEF. He gets LITERALLY shoved under the water and has to confront his grief, but grief is more than grief, it's love and strength and everything that your loved ones leave with you and their hope and love for you

[@orignalaidan4691]

4:52 zeus at the start: "The blood on your hands is something you won't lose. All you can choose is whose."

[@nitrogenfixed]

Also Odysseus to Athena in Remember Them (likely referring back to Zeus's line and the infant's death): "The blood we shed, it never dries"

[@yeshagoyal2966]

In one particular cut song, the one that goes ody: this cannot be the way athena: this is the way there's also something about blood on your hands idk the exact lyric

[@LizaaFernando]

@@yeshagoyal2966 THE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS IS SOMETHING YOU WON'T LOSE ALL YOU CAN DO IS CHOOSE this cannot be the wayyyy 🎶🎶

[@madelinebogle7475]

Yes! Hermes encouraging him to wash caution away, “like the blood your hands have known” while other gods, even Zeus HIMSELF told him “the blood on your hands is something you won’t lose.” Followed by him confirming to himself “the blood we shed, it never dries” but now Hermes is saying.. yes. It can. You wash it away.

[@MW-kf5ox]

I just love when someone listens for the first time and sings the part of the crew. We all went through that 😭

[@AngieTheSilly]

Went? IM STILL ON THAT

[@CutePo1son]

That silence was LOUD 😭

[@KanamoAndDuskVOD]

@@CutePo1son it's silent BECAUSE THEY4RE ALL DEAD AND I CAN'T CRY ENOUGH ABOUT IT

[@LizaaFernando]

@@CutePo1son IKR I WAS WEEPING

[@ShyyGaladriel]

It hurts so good.

[@AzureKing64]

20:45 That feeling is very intentional. Jorge has been super proud and transparent about taking inspiration from anime and video games (a lot of JRPGs in particular) when crafting this musical.

[@Masterthief_0]

im also pretty sure he's planning on making a game based on epic

[@AzureKing64]

@Masterthief_0 Someone else is making it (I forgot who), but Jorge is being consulted about it.

[@dolphin64575]

​@@AzureKing64 Eldelta Studio! They have a patreon and discord :)

[@acequeenofthedeck8431]

19:13 Hermes said "when danger greets you with a smile" Charybdis is essentially a mouth with so many teeth. Thats what oddyseus means when he said "hermes mentioned" 😊

[@JacobPenrodWrites]

@acequeenofthedeck8431 Odysseus is a damn master of literary analysis 😂

[@KanamoAndDuskVOD]

@@JacobPenrodWrites And he's got his great grandpa's sense of humour, "I'm so glad we see eye to eye" to a cyclop and "When danger greets you with a smile" referring to Charybdis lol

[@robertmartens9072]

You will also note that Poseidon also has a smile on his face so hermes could have meant both of them

[@themessiah..]

​@@JacobPenrodWrites he did have athena as a teacher

[@zephyrfields9977]

Or he could have meant the traitorous servants that worked for the suitors when he arrives on Ithaca (and we didn't get to see because went right on with the challenge without passing by Argos and the pig-herders)

[@InternetsDadGaming]

You seem to think the story arc is to NOT become the monster, the story is very much a he WILL TRULY be the monster. This wasn't him stopping the monster, this was him truly becoming the monster he said he'd be at the end of Act 1.

[@T7Karou]

This can be taken as a spoiler tbh. Looking foward to him listening to the finale. It's there when one finds out the true arc and message of the story. It really confused me when I hear Jorge saying his goal is to be ruthless when needed

[@brirelan473]

​@@T7KarouI'd say it's a spoiler until after the Underworld Saga, where the subtext becomes text with him literally announcing his intention to become a monster. That's the tipping point on this being a negative character arc instead of a positive one by my read.

[@risperdude]

(Spoilery) The touch point at the end song 39, where Ody says he doesn't live in a world where mercy can live, but maybe she can make it so, is the pretty bow on the package. That is where the where Polites' vision is surrendered to her and the next generations.

[@T7Karou]

@brirelan473 Different reads then! In my case during my first listen, I took that song a a determination to be a Monster to make it home. Not to be that his entire life after the journey is over!

[@glitzdancer]

@@T7Karouwhile that’s a good thought I think the point is he CANT just be a monster to make it home. Even the prophet says that. Becoming the monster stains him permanently. Even if he can relax by the end the pure “man” part of Odysseus is gone which is shown by how Jay had it depicted in the canon Ithaca animatics (no spoilers but I’m sure you know what I mean). The monster will never leave it just might be subdued when it’s not needed

[@KoriTheAnder]

43:29 Ody isn't conquering his monster side. He's embracing it. He lost his last bit of humanity, mercy. That part of the "just a man" drowned at the end of get in the water.

[@kennethmorgan8795]

"I see you draw your final breath- I see a man who gets to make it home alive- But it's no longer you"

[@surytheworst805]

I think he’ll notice in Odysseus

[@shinigamis_like_apples4797]

@@surytheworst805 I'll say 😂

[@Syenthros]

@@surytheworst805 I dunno, it's kinda subtle in that song. He might miss it.

[@customink1576]

ngl tit feels like he's Polites in constant denial that his good friend Ody could become a monster 😅 like "No, guys, he's still a good man!"

[@cacophonousrage]

I think you're forgetting what the Prophet said. He saw Penelope "with a man who is haunting, a man with a trail of bodies." And that man is NO LONGER Odysseus. The narrative arc is happening as intended. He makes it home, but AS the monster. His "death" and subsequent brutalization of Poseidon solidified that.

[@T7Karou]

The reactor does talk about that tho? He just doesn't know the ending of the story because he hasn't finished the musical?

[@cacophonousrage]

@T7Karou maybe I missed it in this video, but it sounded like he was saying the story arc didn't connect because Odysseus was allowed to effectively face his grief and "defeat" the Monster, but in a monstrous manner. I'm saying the monstrosity is the point. He's not meant to lose the Monster after fighting Poseidon, because of what the Prophet said. Even without knowing how the musical ends, it's the Prophet saying that he'd no longer be the non-monstrous version of himself once he returned home that I'm emphasizing.

[@T7Karou]

@cacophonousrage What the Prophet said could not be the ending arc, that's why I actualy even think bringing it up counts as a spoiler. Tho i know others don't agree on that. But regarding the monster: the reactor take on the concept "monster" during the Monster song was that it was a mask brought up by grief and for the goal to not feel guilt. So what I understood in this video is that for the reactor Ody defeated the god/grief with another mask/grief/monster instead of embracing all his sides, including the ruthless one. Kind of like the character needing to accept and overcome his pain without evading it with a facade of mounstrosity with no feelings. It's a sightly different view than yours but *FINALE SPOILER* it leads to the same conclusion: in the last song of the musical, the main characher embrases how he has changed (be it that you take that as becoming a monster or be it that you take that as accepting everything that come with being ruthless in a ruthless world)

[@Biaso1997]

​@T7Karou is not that he embraces he's a monster necessarily, because the motif suggests the contrary. Odysseus embraces that he has changed, but that the self contained perspective on Monster vs Man (which are very much allegories for human nature) aren't opposing each other but rather are coexisting. He embraces the fact that even if he's changed, he is just a man who's did what he did to make it back home.

[@T7Karou]

@@Biaso1997 We are saying the same thing with the added interpretation of the reactor saying that Ody doesn't embrase his changes in Monster nor in 600 Strike (it's still a copying mechanism, a mask - He'll probably say he finally does it in Will You Fall In Love With Me Again), and that the embracing is still missing for now. Now, my opinion is that Epic can't be used to compare nowdays human nature. Ody thinks that he seeing (key word: seeing, nor saving nor protecting) his loved ones is more important than not murdering other humans. That's a huge red flag in real life, or more like jail stuff. But this is fantasy, doesn't really leave a bad message unless you are already a psycho and it's established that neither Penelope nor Telemachus care about his ruthless actions.

[@boopagm8275]

"This feels more like a video game." Yes, exactly. That's how Jorge wrote it. Charybdis is basically a mini boss

[@JacobPenrodWrites]

@@boopagm8275 That is definitely a choice I didn’t see coming! It doesn’t NOT work, but it did take me a minute to reacclimate. Not a bad thing at all, just an observation

[@boopagm8275]

@JacobPenrodWrites I'm glad you did pick up on that if unintentionally. As well like everyone else says. The livestream of the Ithaca saga is the way to go for the first reaction. And I'll be commenting on your next video for at least how i see what the ending is trying to say.

[@Sam-fp2qh]

For the Ithaca saga, I think you should watch the live stream that Jay posted. It's the best way to get what the creator is trying to convey with the commissioned animatics by so many talented artists.

[@yamatosama6028]

120% agree with this

[@Neon_Mage]

OMG YES

[@Beny763]

Agreed! The last few sagas also have way more commissioned animated segments compared to the older ones. Like, he won´t miss much doing the livestream footage rather than watching dedicated animatics. And the "official" animatics for Ithaca are just sooo good.

[@hufflepuffvoldida7977]

yes

[@kennethmorgan8795]

Agreed, note to him since other creators didn't realize it though: decent portions of each song aren't animated IDK why but I assume it had to do with time constraints and finding enough people to animate the parts he felt needed the animatic. This does not detract from the fact that they are "canon". I quote that because it is a concept album so if/when it goes proper 'full release' several of those visuals could get altered or removed entirely.

[@jackofdiamonds7303]

In Get in the Water, theres just something about Poseidon's delivery of "I can't" that makes me think that Poseidon is also tired of this game with Ody and doesn't care anymore, but still chooses to continue whether it be due to maintaining reputation or just how much time he's spent on Ody.

[@lstainer]

Literal sunk cost fallacy

[@IDontGotThis]

I think if ody had just offered a eay for posiden to let him go without losing face, poseiden would have agreed. Like "Let me go and ill just tell people you scared the shit out of me"

[@Terapsihora]

I personally thought it was more about Poseidon's nature. He's the God of the Sea and sea is not merciful.

[@AtiorasLunaris]

20:20 This monster - never named in the musical, but is the name of the song, Charybdis, is the “sister monster” to Scylla. And Odysseus knew who Scylla was in “Suffering” “Its through the Lair of Scylla!” “No…” “This is your only way home,” “But Scylla has a cost…” Even though Scylla was just mentioned, he knew, and its likely because he is the captain, Scylla and Charybdis are both sea monsters and each other’s opposites and their stories are linked. Scylla is the monster of narrow passages (hence why Scylla’s lair is often depicted as a cavern/cave/cove), Charybdis is the monster of open waters, the wideness of the ocean, and often linked to whirlpools. So the stories go, if you’re sailing you have to make a choice, do you dare get closer to Scylla, or Charybdis?

[@that_morrigan6184]

Scary Boys or Scylla, what a choice!

[@jadaw644]

If the sacrifice aspect is a must to get past Scylla alive, Charybdis feels like the no-brainer there. At least there's a chance you can get by without any deaths if you're careful and stall it out. Though, of course, the ideal is to get through without dealing with either of them. Even the phrase "Between Scylla and Charybdis" is about being stuck between two equally dangerous situations and trying to find a way around them rather than having to choose.

[@Apophis.004]

​@@jadaw644You can't avoid Charybdis with big ships. In the Odyssey, Odysseyus chooses Scylla (though he doesn't intentionally sacrifice 6 men) and the crew is watching Charybdis in fear because of how massive and dangerous it is. Ody only survived cause he had a tiny raft he could easily manoeuvre

[@Apophis.004]

​@@jadaw644and it's not really a sacrifice. Scylla can only eat 6 men so she will pluck randomly. The torches in Epic were used to show that Ody only cares about himself and is making sure that Scylla doesn't eat him

[@frogwithhumanteeth7808]

“Sister Monster”, that’s just Greek for they were girlfriends lmao (I’m joking, you can relax)

[@sunnysunsins]

The wind bag contains the storm Poseidon spawned. He won't be able to get anywhere close to Ithaca without the storm being contained inside the bag. "No mortal can pass Poseidon's storm", he needs help from Aeolus and her bag to get through it

[@b_w_j]

I might be wrong, but I think he’s confused about why they’re giving him the wind bag if it’s such a big deal not to open it. Like why doesn’t Hermes just hold on to it and make sure it doesn’t open since he’s a god

[@extreme5374]

@@b_w_j Maybe it's meant to be Odysseus's burden/test and Hermes can't help him that directly? It seemed that way to me, but I don't kno.

[@Apophis.004]

​@@b_w_j you answered yourself. He's a God. By that logic why didn't Hermes just fly him to Ithaca? Or why Aelous gave him the bag in the Ocean Saga. It's all a test from the Gods. They never completely help mortals

[@kirikaito2]

I think InkWrites wants to fill the hole with the explanation of reasone of giving bag to Ody, and I think no one would be agenst a song, where Hermes and Aelous bargain. It would be the best positive trickster song of epic.

[@felixsonofscouty]

@@b_w_jI’ve always just kind of assumed the bag also kind of prevents Poseidon from just throwing a new storm at him

[@peterreedstrom2027]

14:06 i think if the storm isn't bagged, Poseidon would use it to block him. Also, aeolus probably wouldn't agree to trap the storm unless they get to sow some potential chaos. Edit: i feel like the way that dangerous fits in is that, odysseus hasn't seen a friendly face in ages. He's been among people he no longer trusts, or trapped, with no clear path home, and suddenly the most friendly god appears and tells him home is possible. That must be such a big relief to him, that we see a bit of his old energy leaking through.

[@juliamucha808]

I think scary boys and wet hades are now my two favourite mishaps from the Epic fandom xDD

[@IDontGotThis]

And Divine Sugar Momma?

[@Noah-l2v5x]

And Circe the serial pigger?

[@juliamucha808]

@IDontGotThis YES absolutely the divine sugar mama xD

[@tikussnorlax3544]

Lmaaaao that video game comment is a Nat 20 Jorge literally said that that moment in Charybdis was meant to be like a video game where you think you’ve beaten the final boss and then suddenly NEW FINAL BOSS

[@shroom6887]

The thing with the windbag, only Aeolus, god of wind, can capture the winds of the storm (while Poseidon can control the storm's waves). Hermes went to her to beg for a second chance, and she agreed to recapture it, but since we know how she loves chaos, she turned it into a game again for Ody (to not open the bag), at least that's how I see it

[@RacketEPIC]

that, and Hermes and Aeolus feel very in character to be friends in this musical, with how their personalities follow the basic chaotic principles.

[@qryptid]

Yeah I don't see Aeolus just handing over the bag to help Odysseus, but "let's give the mortal another chance, maybe he'll mess it up even worse somehow" is definitely something both of them would go for lmao

[@jkb9211]

Plus, the windbag is basically Chekov's gun. You know it's going to get opened for some reason at some point.

[@sophhuh2113]

was about to type this, thank you he also did that because of the whole thing with athena

[@brandontucker6958]

Just as a note, the consequence for the 600 Strike is that now he is fully the monster, without spoiling too much in the official animatics he never loses the red eyes which is the sign of him being the monster. Him nearly drowning then deciding be won't hold back or hesitate in anything to get home (torturing) solidified that he no longer leads with open arms.

[@jimjimcherie]

13:47 the very same reason why Orpheus turned to look back at Eurydice even though he was told not to do it or shed be trapped in the Underworld. Humanity is really bad at doing what we’re told. Curiosity will always be our greatest strength and flaw. The Gods will never give anything without a cost as well.

[@AzureKing64]

13:50 Other than being an obvious plot device, Odysseus did go through a lot to get that bag. Giving it back to him is putting his fate firmly back into his own hands.

[@AzureKing64]

14:40 Also the LITERAL storm from "Storm" was created by Poseidon for the express purpose of impeding Odysseus. If you go back and listen, you can hear a lot of musical references in "Poseidon" and "Storm" to each other, basically confirming that.

[@freshcupofangst]

Okay, CLEARLY I've been sleeping on the fan animatics because how tf did I miss such a spectacular Dangerous animatic? Like you said it's basically full-on animation, I can't believe I missed out on this one!

[@Feral_Animations]

Accidentally calling Charybdis "scary bois" and then immediately proceeding to predict the faceoff with Poseidon in literally the next song. Yep, sounds about right lol 😆

[@kadensyco5618]

the story isn't about concering the monster in you, it's about how becoming a monster is sometimes a necessity and this is the story of ody learning that and embracing it.

[@AzureKing64]

34:30 Odysseus does make one final plea to Poseidon and I think that it IS sincere. It's his last ditch effort to resolve this with empathy and humanity. When Poseidon rejects him and submerges him beneath the waves, he sees the people that wait for him in death, a Man's death. He figuratively dies in that moment and is reborn as the Monster, without self-deception or facade and fully embraces it.

[@ten5h1]

Not even Jorge can resist the urge to bop to “Dangerous” Also … the little Winion with the bow was voiced by Jorge’s sister.

[@LizaaFernando]

Princess Winion supremacy 👸 ☁

[@alilith3476]

ALl OF HIS FAMILY ARE IN???

[@ten5h1]

@ yup

[@hxjiq]

29:01 actually! he couldn't kill him since zeus decided to let him go, so he had to MAKE him get in the water by telling him that if he didn't he would've killed both his wife and son, blinded Telemachus like he did with Polyphemus..; in the original live poseidon didn't touch him, it was always the water that did everything. He pushed him down thanks to the pressure of water + the 600 men "holding him down"

[@PretentiousGamer]

Reminded me of a video where a gang of orca coordinated to push a seal into the water

[@Apophis.004]

I mean Poseidon literally used his trident and God move on him in the livestream. You can't get more physical than that. Athena only asked Zeus to release him from Calypso

[@hxjiq]

@ well no, he didn't stab him or anything like that, he just used the pressure of the trident to push him down

[@Apophis.004]

@hxjiq Yeah but he's using the trident to push him down. The ocean and trident are under his control, he's actively killing him. If I shoot someone and say I didn't kill him, it was the bullet, it wouldn't hold up in court.

[@ri_grossmann]

I think what might be helpful in this case is reframing how you’re thinking of “conquering the monster.” You’re thinking of it as overcoming or self integration, but it may be better to think of it as hierarchical. If you conquer the monster, you are now the monster

[@MattD247]

I hope Jacob gets that point but based off his last video, he made it clear that “abuse isn’t hierarchy” Which I find it ironic that he was kinda loving it in 600 hundred strike because, again, his words “abuse is abuse is abuse”. Well….Ody tortured Poseidon. Is torture not Abuse? So why isn’t Jacob up in arms about that like he was with Calypso? Me thinks he doth protest too much.

[@ri_grossmann]

@@MattD247 I mean, I think in Jacob's defense, the kind of abuse Calypso enacts is both more realistically common place, and more insidious, which is why so many have a strong negative reaction to those songs. It's also over a span of several years, and typically for something to be characterized as abuse, it does have to be a repeated pattern. Whereas from a storytelling standpoint, the relationship between Odysseus and Poseidon has always been that they are enemies, which means there's an expectation of violent confrontation whenever they cross paths. Torture is unquestionably morally bad, but it's not necessarily abuse unless there's a repeated pattern. And the draw of 600 Strike, even at the end when Ody really goes full monster, is the catharsis, cause by this point we're all done with Poseidon, and are right there with Odysseus. And there's nothing quite like that with Calypso in a way that gives Odysseus any resolution. I do think Jacob has missed or mischaracterized some really important character traits for Odysseus, Athena, and Eurylucus in how literary and close his analysis has been that he's kind of set himself up for an unsatisfying/unjustified conclusion though.

[@justabeanmate5302]

@@MattD247 Not necessarily and this is a massive oversimplification. The torturing of an immortal and cruel being is not nearly the same as a real life and much more common place example of abuse. Immortality is a concept that simply re-contextualizes "abuse" and is debatable as abuse but certainly not definitive. Not to mention time as a factor, 7 years of repetitive actions, yeah thats abuse. Less than 3 minutes of it? Not necessarily. Morally wrong? Yeah obviously, but that's not what your comment is about.

[@aroseydragon2873]

His path is being blocked by Poseidon’s storm, as Hermes says. They trapped his storm inside the bag to prevent it from blocking the path. That’s why he needs the wind bag. It’s like they put a wall of bricks and concrete inside a bag of holding. Edit: “Scary Boiz” I think is being used a metaphor to show hes holding on to his determination and hope and that he’s not afraid to be himself again.

[@r-171]

Mhm.

[@vertx6186]

I looove how this story doesnt go the lazy route saying that the happy go lucky attitud is morally correct like so many stories do, jorge has said the spirit he wanted to capture into the story is "its necessary to have a capacity for ruthlessnes to protect those you care about" and it informs eeeeverything, even previous song now that i think about it

[@Meruem0429]

Your energy is so infectious and omg SCARYBOIS AHHH i cant keep a straight face everytime you said it. Scarybois wasnt really mentioned specifically but Hermes said that this last leg home is going to be dangerous even with Poseidon's storm that they trapped in the bag yet again for Odysseus. Also where Scarybois is, Poseidon wont be from a mythological point. Ofc not everyone knows it. But Scylla and Scarybois are neighbours and scarybois is Poseidon's daughter turned monster. he cant bear to see her so he doesnt go there. hence he couldn't go where Scylla is. but yes. one will know this only as someone who knows greek myth. YESS JORGE'S VISION WAS VIDEO GAME VIBES. YOUR ANALYSIS IS SO ON POINT OMG. I wanna train may brain to be as cool and quick and smart as yours.. Dude you are so good at this.

[@JacobPenrodWrites]

@@Meruem0429 thank you so much!!

[@Meruem0429]

@@JacobPenrodWrites THANK YOU for these videos !!!! i love love lovee them. Thank youuu

[@vertx6186]

Dudeeee respect on your user name ​@@Meruem0429

[@MW-kf5ox]

Danger is actually a big theme in EPIC. Musically, Jorge has four notes that represent that danger is near and those are almost everywhere in the Musical.

[@BridgetNicLaren]

Odysseus passing Charybdis: thank the gods Odysseus: why do I hear boss music?

[@iremainteague5653]

I think the intention is to show Odysseus didn't fully embrace himself as a monster until this moment. Now he no longer cares and won't feel guilty for terrible actions taken to get home. I like this saga. Get in the Water and the end of 600 Strike are amazing, but getting there is a bit clunky. 34:07 is meant to be Odysseus drawing his final breath. Then the new man, who is a monster represented by red eyes, awakens. He was being dragged down by the guilt around the 600 men, his best friends, and his mother, but then throws the responsibility back in Poseidon's face. He basically says, "I didn't kill them. You did." He throws his guilt away in a way that he couldn't before and resolves to do anything to get home without guilt.

[@Jeff-fo3ck]

I think Jorge was having fun on this one. as he said on the live stream "I Told you that it was gonna be the most video gamey anime-esque saga" and he feels so proud of it. That's our Mr. Jalapeno

[@tikussnorlax3544]

“When Danger greets you with a smile” is meant to be about Charybdis, cause, well… it has a massive mouth and Hermes’ is making a joke.

[@Meruem0429]

YES omg i never cuaght onto that. this is def scarybois

[@eabarton21]

Just wanted to say I appreciate your fairmindedness in continuing the experience, even if you think mistakes have been made in the work (I tend to agree, and you've already articulated many of the issues I have with Wisdom/Vengeance). But more importantly, I just wanted to let you know that I have a reminder set for a few months from now to see if I can pick up your book! I adore finding thoughtful new (to me!) authors, so I'm looking forward to getting to know your work!

[@Grimmy1060]

I think you misunderstood what was happening by the end of this Saga: During The Thunder Saga, Odysseus was embracing his monstrous side, but he still wasn't a complete monster, that is why he felt guild and begged Zeus to not force him to choose who dies, and the he tried "Open Arms" approach with Poseidon. Poseidon drowned Odysseus, forcing him to draw his final breath. It was stated in the prophesy: "I see you draw your final breath I see a man who gets to make it home alive But it's no longer you" In "Six Hundred Strike" you get to see the Monster rising to fight Poseidon and finding a way to defeat Poseidon. Poseidon calling Odysseus a monster also can be seen as symbolic in this context too.

[@makaramuss]

to be honest he is an idiot And lets be honest monster never helped him except at 600 strikes. Dude never apologizes not only to save his neck but to save his friends' neck... at "get into water" poseidon actually stopped and listened to him and he sounded like he actually didn't want to do any of this... what did ody do? LECTURE A GOD :D man has guts I must admit... but damn his pride

[@fateha_]

The windbag is capturing the storm that was out there close to his home.If there wasn't the bag, the storm would make it impossible to go to Ithica. So he has to protect the bag from opening. Many were confused by that

[@AMulti-FandomMess]

34:40 Your theory is actually correct! In the official Get in the Water animatic, Odysseus actually hallucinates Polites, Eury, mom etc as the ones pulling him down further in the water which I personally see as another visualization for his guilt

[@emersonday6659]

I am SO glad you reacted to Zieru's animatic!!! It's by far my favorite animation in the entire series hehe

[@jimjimcherie]

2:00 it’s not only how he feels, there’s no crew to sing it.

[@rocketrelm1125]

Okay so, analysis of the Wind Bag, using the framing you've introduced (I think that's genuinely really cool). If Zeus is Trauma and Posiedon is Grief, then the Wind Bag is *Trust*. You see it in the first half, where it's given to the crew and if they stay unified they'll make it home. The crew breaks that trust, and Ody tries to recapture the rest, and he uses what's left of his capacity to trust to push away from his grief. Here, Ody sacrifices his capacity for trust and mercy, and it's no longer him that gets home.

[@caitlinb35]

"He needs to.... eloquently speaking, kick Poseidon's ass. It would be a thematic ass-kicking" took me OUT, I've loved watching your reactions

[@chascona9393]

I think Scary Boys is one of my favorite songs. It's not many people's favorite and for the narrative it is not that important, but "Oh bring it on!" just hits so good, I just want to sing along and scream it out

[@samarapeoples5527]

I absolutely ADORE how much you praise and admire the wonderful animations and animatics. It makes me very happy for some reason.

[@hannahwilson1459]

The wind bag is literal not metaphorical in this since. The Winions say "it was ment to stop u by design". Poseidon made that storm to stop Oddy from reaching home. If he wants to actually make it to shore he has to keep the wind bag closed. Simple as that.

[@KhyannArts]

the videogame feeling is pretty valid cuz jorge did envision this musical almost like is something you could have as a videogame soundtrack

[@rymasan5489]

13:51 from what i ve learned and read , Gods shouldn’t intervene with mortals fate , Hermes and Aeolus helped him and trapped the storm inside the bag again to make it back home so they have to balance it and make it dangerous with giving him the bag and risk blowing it if it gets opened

[@AzureKing64]

08:46 He says, as if we haven't listened to "Dangerous" a million times, yet are still eager to do it a million more. 😅

[@laytonjr6601]

For the Ithaca saga, since it only came recently, I'd recommend watching the animations commitioned for the livestream (the animations already out are still amazing however)

[@matheus.s.r9835]

Up

[@qryptid]

Agreed, I really think he needs the official animatics. Esp for Hold Them Down, which is a song like Love In Paradise that needs the animatic to handle it delicately and I think the canon visuals in the livetsream did that perfectly

[@tikussnorlax3544]

On your critique of dangerous, I agree it can be jarring, but my interpretation of Dangerous has always been that he’s become jaded as a result of the Thunder Saga, and actually like through the first half of Dangerous or so he’s a little hesitant and allowing Hermes’ to do his thing, but what Hermes is trying to do is reactivate him and his vigour to get home, which finally works with the final chorus of Dangerous.

[@AlexSilverCat]

"The blood on your hands is something you won't lose- all you can choose is whose..." -Zeus, final line of the first song.

[@claytontaylor4268]

I think, that maybe what has happened, is that you've been expecting Odysseus to go through a positive character arc, but overall I think he's been on something more akin to a negative arc, and that's where the disconnect between your expectations and the narrative has arisen.

[@L_unaur]

I think the windbag was given to him to ensure that there was no storm on his way home. Just like it was in the ocean saga, the wind bag was given to him so that there were no storms unless you open the bag. This is what I think hope it helps😊

[@jamesconnolly721]

CAN ANYONE POINT TO A SINGLE MOMENT WHERE ODYSSEUS' WIT DOES ANYTHING BUT SAVE LIVES? Like troops out of food, follow birds. Cyclops appears, my name is nobody. Poseidon appears, use wind bag. Sirens, beeswax. Like he has flaws like pride but wit is his STRENGTH.

[@rymasan5489]

This ❤️ it saved them in the trojan war too ❤️

[@maxastro]

I mean, Scylla.

[@jamesconnolly721]

​​@@maxastro it could be argued the smart move was to try not to, as Aries says "Kill'ha".

[@qryptid]

​@maxastro if it was the only way through, it isn't it smarter to go through as fast as possible so she can only get 6 men than try to fight her and risk 12 or more? It's all about weighing risks

[@Abocreature]

14:00 The wind bag contains Poseidon's storm (specified the first time he got a wind bag) and that the storm is in the bag is the reason he can get home at all. Hermes could only get this from Aeolus, as evidence by the winions singing with him, and we're meant to presume the deal was that Odysseus had to carry it in order to get a wind bag at all

[@Skull-]

genuinely cried when you decided to watch zieru’s dangerous animatic. i love their animatic TO BITS.

[@theheartbreaker830]

I feel these videos are getting earlier and earlier, but I'm not complaining! Cannot wait to see your reaction to this Edit: just letting dangerous play through is so real. Its an absolute bop and a personal favorite. But about scary boys (Charybdis), I feel she (yes, it's a she canonically), is a false hope moment as you saw at the end of the song. Odysseus thought this was the final path, that maybe poseidon was done with him for now. Then we get one final breaking point of Odysseus and the full monster showing through. Also also, Charybdis is a daughter of poseidon. Not important, but just a Greek mythology fact.

[@deadpan1661]

With the wind bag, when it was opened in keep your friends close, the storm never left. Its just been waiting there in order to keep ody from getting home, so it needs to be contained again in order for ody to even have a chance of returning. As for why it was given to him, I always saw it as Zeus' decision. Just another little twist that might ruin ody's life

[@deadpan1661]

For scary boys. Yes, it was never mentioned. In the original Odyssey it was mentioned briefly, but Ody just avoided it and never had a problem with scary boys. If I remember right, Jay said that he basically just wanted to add scary boys into epic, and this is where it ended up.

[@pandoamessi4079]

I'm enjoying these so much, it's like I'm listening to them for the first time again! I always have to rewire my brain after your analysis😂 Like i said, you're definitely a warrior of the mind!

[@vaxleth]

i'm so glad the fandom as a whole is in agreement that dangerous is a BOP

[@superfundaycare]

Jorge said in his live stream that he wanted this saga too feel like and anime/video game so that’s probably why your saying that😭

[@SarenDracul]

34:19 He symbolically died there and the monster took full control thats where he embraced Poseidon's message. Technically he made it home but hes no longer himself after this point just like Tiresias said. And he embraces it AS MUCH AS HE NEEDS TO but DOES NOT let it consume him COMPLETELY.

[@surytheworst805]

I think he’s having a different idea of what Odysseus’s arc is. He’s arc is about becoming a monster and doing everything and anything to get home, it’s the question “What would you do to save your family?” He’s not conquering a monster or finding a balance, he’s sacrificing his humanity to return home.

[@nikpopnanime]

also, if the storm wasn't in the wind bag, it would be at the ocean while odysseus is going home. with it being in a wind bag, it secures that odysseus' journey would be peaceful as long as he doesn't open it (of course, poseidon wasn't accounted for lmao)

[@area52ron]

Charybdis is Poseidons daughter and Scylla’s neighbor who was mutated into what we see her now that’s why Poseidon doesn’t go near Scylla because it brings up bad memories of how he lost his daughter or how his daughter was hurt and he couldn’t prevent it Due to Zues decreeing Odysseus can go home Poseidon can’t kill him directly which is why he says “Get in the water” basically telling him to KYS and that’s why he threatened Odysseus family to get him to do it because if he did then he technically didn’t go against Zues’ decree as Odysseus did it himself and also it will humiliate Odysseus. Which is why he doesn’t stab Odysseus but is pushing him under the water “I’ll take your son and gouge his eyes” Like how Odysseus did to Polyphemus The storm is cursed with temptation “This feels sincere to me” It is when Odysseus’ voice goes higher it’s him showing vulnerability The old Odysseus took his final breath and the new Odysseus took his first breath “Next to my wife” Translation: I won’t be sleeping at night but I’ll at least be next to my wife (I see you draw your final breath. I see a man who gets to make it home alive but it’s no longer you)

[@shinigamis_like_apples4797]

Get in the Water IS a confrontation, but I don't think its Odys confrontation with his monster side, or that by conquering Poseidon he's conquering the monster inside himself. (although beating the person who taught him that Ruthlessness is mercy might be symbolic of him finally being able to find peace, to be just a man again. The events that come after in Ithaca saga show that those lessons haven't quite gone away by the end of this lol) IMO 600 strike is Poseidon confronting the consequences of his ideology, in the form of an even greater monster than him, aka Odysseus. Simply put, Poseidon and Odysseus are both monsters, but Odysseus is the monster POSEIDON CREATED. By destroying his fleet and blocking his path from home Poseidon made Odysseus desperate enough to let go of having Open Arms (Polites’s philosophy) and embrace the monster inside him, embrace Poseidons philosophy, that ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves. That being ruthless does us more kindness in the future, than mercy would. So imo the core message isn't about Odysseus conquering his monster side by conquering Poseidon, or defeating his abuser (although that is also a takeaway one can have here) If you compare the two characters it shows that between an unfeeling Deity like Poseidon, and ‘‘just a man'', ‘‘just a man'' has the potential to be a greater and more ruthless monster than anything Poseidon has seen before. Odysseus in MONSTER: ''I'll become the monster, like none they've ever known'' and he meant it xD

[@Astrocritical]

13:35 , The windbag is something he HAS to carry as agreed upon by Aeolus. As in, Aeolus said "you need to carry this bag and just not open it in order for me to help you." and so if he's on the water again, he must carry the windbag or he's breaking that oath. Hope that makes sense. The musical doesn't really explain that in depth, but it is stated during that song.

[@immyray4287]

Poseidon created that storm to block him from getting home. Hermes convinced Aeolus to capture it in the bag and give to Odysseus

[@mariamelj5472]

Jorge was inspired by colour changing lightbulbs when he wrote Dangerous btw 😂

[@seanchesteralexisexamen5964]

oh yes, I remember him saying that. what a crazy musical genius

[@MidnightSunna]

Omg Odysseus could totally be a Trickster domain cleric in DnD 😂

[@Oleandra_13]

Common theory is that Ody is being boosted by Ares in "Monster Mode" like Athena promised in God Games. That's why he breaks the rules about backup chorus/has red eyes/super strength.

[@LadyKhione]

I always assumed they (the gods) gave Ody the wind bag because their divine intervention will only go so far. If the gods held onto the bag, it would be the gods stopping Posidon at all costs, essentially siding with Ody against their own family. By giving Ody the bag they're saying, we're giving you a chance but ultimately this is your struggle not ours. could also double up on the fact that the gods aren't nearly as invested as a whole in Ody making it back home as Ody himself. Also also I took the opening of the wind bag as Ody literally unpacking his guilt and trauma lol - not that we necessarily have the the buildup for that, but when he finally lists out all of the events while pummeling Posidon it clicked for me that he is finally actually talking about what he's been though and what he's been feeling out loud and addressing those thoughts. Honestly this song made me think of the Wind bag like a physical representation of Samwise saying "I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you!" I know that probably doesn't make a lot of sense since the gods are not nearly as helpful as Sam was but that's how my brain works I guess. 🤷‍♀

[@yukidrag0n485]

This wasn't him conquering the monster, this was him becoming the monster. "Look what you turned me into, look what we've become." If Poseidon is monstrous, so is Odysseus here.

[@SpitfiretheCat16]

Sometimes a storm is just a storm. He has the wind bag again because otherwise Poseidon, the god of the ocean, would use it to block his path with a physical barrier. The _ocean_ is his grief. Hopping from island from island, clinging to small moments of hope. Every one forcing him to confront what he's running from; the sea. But he always has to get back to it. The more he tries to deflect and run away from it, the worse off he gets. Here, he's not stopping anymore. He has to confront everything. He has to confront Poseidon and stop letting grief rule his life. ...Although, on second thought, the storm could be his _anger._ Whenever he lashes out, bad things happen. People get hurt. His grief gets worse. Turbulence that dumps him into the all-consuming pain. He has to keep it contained, or it'll lead him to ruin- unless he can channel it. Use it in a 'constructive' way, like he did against Poseidon. And fight until he's run out of rage.

[@mostlyimpulsive3462]

22:29 Charybdis was his final hurdle to reaching Ithaca in the Odyssey, so Jorge can't just discard her. We coulda built her up a bit more though, yeah.

[@b_w_j]

4:55 I believe the lyric you’re thinking of is Zeus’ “the blood on your hands is something you won’t loose” from the first song

[@kirianferrett2973]

Duvetbox's animation kinda alleviates what was the actual cheating with the windbag haha A lot of people were conflicted with the last song so it's understandable

[@JacobPenrodWrites]

Yeah I went and watched the official animatic. I definitely prefer Duvetbox’s interpretation of the song. They did incredible!

[@lizlilliman3644]

I love duvetbox's because of this it grounds it in the reality of the rules of epic, to have Odysseus suddenly become Superman and wipe posiden out the air felt wrong to me. To see the cunning of Odysseus to hurt posiden feels right.

[@kirianferrett2973]

@@lizlilliman3644 this interpretation also shows that Ody is still himself for the most part, even if he's now capable of throwing guilt and remorse away, which is very relevant to the ending

[@gryfon_gamez8184]

Odysseus having the wind bag is a requirement for the gods setting him free. I feel like having enough knowledge on mythology to know "Hermes is the messenger god so this is just a message from the gods" is what stops me and other people getting confused about that. It's a condition, a challenge "We'll let you go but we're not going to make it easy for you, you're in charge of keeping the means of your own destruction safe." And then later in 600 strikes he uses said means to his advantage, taking what Poseidon was using to supress him and weaponising it against Poseidon which is very powerful. And in regards to 'it was meant to stop you from design' it is literally saying Poseidon designed the storm to stop Odysseus after he blinded Polyphemus.

[@alextheokay9634]

You were spot on! Jorge said that he wanted this to feel like a video game and give everything a boss rush feel

[@jayc7559]

His character arc isn’t to overcome the monster. This is a story about how and why he becomes the monster to get home.

[@hannahcabbell9811]

Charybdis is one of Poseidon’s daughters. Could you imagine if Odysseus had also hurt or killed her? Neither could catch a break lol

[@heridragolia8798]

Pretty much every reactor i have seen have the same complaint about the wind bag, and the fact no one seems to get it when it seems so obvious to le is mind boggling. The wind bag is NOT a bag full of wind. It's posseidon's storm that was was put INTO the bag by the wind god so it wouldn't block the way! Hence why Odysseus wouldn't be able to continue on without it- keeping the bag closed is the only reason why he can sail home.

[@Kireshva]

Fr. Idk if it's because some of those reactors just forget details about the previous saga, or even songs, because they listen only once and never again after their first reaction (despite a lot of them saying how much they like this or that song). The media literacy is just... Yep. For Jacob, I think the overanalyzing and leaning into metaphors are a bit too much and is definitely detrimental to actually understanding the narrative.

[@dafnemejia3946]

It's really funny that you compare it to a videogame boss fight, cause Jorge's vision WAS to make it a videogame boss fight

[@GirlGamer190]

First of all you need to include charybdis because the Odyssey. But in narrative I see it as this is Odysseus is getting his groove back, and dangerous is Hermes song but in this one it's him being strategic having fun claiming that the ocean will not take him before the big bad. He still standing here he's not dying here, and we see a little bit of his old self back.

[@Starryboard-l8z]

Your analysis is so fun so far! The "drown yourself in your grief" metaphor with Get in the Water is soooo cool, by the way!! I never thought of it that way but it makes so much sense!! Did want to mention that Jorge has said he wants to make Mini Sagas to fill in the blanks of Epic the Musical, so keep an eye out for that! Edit: forgot to mention! One important detail to keep in mind with Epic - it's a Greek Myth retelling. Ancient Greek myths basically invented tragedies. I won't say more than that.

[@kanga2468]

Did no one tell him that the musical feeling like a video game/anime is *literally* the point? Like Jorge intentionally made it like that, and he even said the Vengeance Saga was the MOST video gamey/anime saga

[@galadballcrusher8182]

Everyone has the capacity to be monstrous if one pushes his button by going too far. Messing with one's family (or the puppy representing it's memmory in John Wick case) can trigger everyone to go medieval ....and if you re particularly unlucky may meet someone who even goes biblical to town with yer ass.

[@pumpkinpie2941]

I love your analysis and how you break things down. It makes me think so much more about Epic and the characters. It feels like sitting in class and a topic you like is on with a teacher that knows how to make it fun.

[@riduanaqil1452]

The winion (little cloud things) in Dangerous was voiced by Jorge's sister. Also, i think Hermes giving the wind bag to Odysseus makes sense since it's still his quest. The gods doesn't need to interfere at all and yet here he is with a second chance because Athena begs for him in God Games. But i do agree that it does feel a little bit like a Deus Ex Machina

[@ryn7353]

Jorge has said that he wanted much of Vengeance Saga to be inspired by his love and appreciation for Video Games and Anime. :)

[@Untolddead]

You can tell how much skill the animators have gained from the start of the project.

[@FantasyFinalFiend]

I'm curious will you be reacting to the listening party streams? Cause those animatics that are featured hit different. Also watching the cast and Jorge is fun.

[@kcirtaplivez-1713]

Yeah I think currently those are the best animatics overall

[@nobucruz7288]

He should react to the live stage play. Aka theater kids being theater kids, aka act 2 of the silly saga

[@boopagm8275]

We DID see Odysseus' monster sode displve. It was the time he was forced to sot on a island with just his thoughts and a crazy woman. In some versions of the Odyssey. Part of his punishment is being able to SEE Ithaca from Calypso's island.

[@raccoonmoon1497]

One thing with Epic is that half the story telling is in the lyrics and the other half is in the music. The great thing about the official animatics is that it helps patch the two together.

[@SHEPtheBISH]

One of the things I love so much about your reactions has been the COMBINATION of both animation and storytelling. Great stuff!

[@makaramuss]

I assume windbag was taken by poseidon after he opened it last time. Thats why he is saying "we been through so much to get this". Hermes is not just god of messengers he is also god of thieves. Most likely he stole it from poseidon and captured storm again. And you already know why he gave it to Odysseus but I think he knew he might need to open it to save his life so he said "better not home than dead I guess" and gave it to him for emergency. about "you must be one hermes mentioned" part... that monster is 1 big mouth "when danger greets you with SMILE"... hermes being funny.

[@WesleiOliveira628]

Jorge did say he wanted to make a spin off of Hermes and the minions journey to get the windbag, so we'll probably know soon.

[@ShadowChorus]

There's a few reasons why Hermes might have given the bag to Odysseus. First and most likely is that the gods love testing mortals, and giving Odysseus the tool of his own destruction is a character test to see if he's really ready for this. Then there's the potential logistical concerns about the magic of the bag, but that requires you to explain how your magic works with the idea that maybe the bag only keeps the storm away from the region you're in so if you get too far away it doesn't work, but that's less likely and it's more likely that Hermes is just going with the testing him angle. The fight with Charybdis is partially a concession to the actual Odyssey because he does get his raft eaten by Charybdis at this point, but also it's a power point; a chance to show Odysseus getting a moment to have a win right after his 'it's time to be dangerous' song right before he has to get his ass kicked in Get in the Water before his desperation powerup moment in 600 Strike..

[@NamelessProof]

The bag of winds is supposed to be something of a trial or a test. The same reason Aeolus didn't just hold back the storms the first time, the Gods wont just *give* you things that major for free. I wouldn't be surprised if Hermes was told specifically by Aeolus "Ill only give you the bag of winds if you give it to Odysseus on his journey" to maintain her initial challenge. That's my take on it anyway.