Fareed Zakaria on Where Russia’s War in Ukraine Stands - and Much More

A lot about the world has changed since February 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine. The war itself has brought a number of surprises, from the tenacity of Ukraine’s resistance to the limits of Western sanctions. Meanwhile, competition between the United States and China has escalated into something resembling a new Cold War, India just surpassed China as the most populous country in the world and countries representing about two-thirds of the world’s population (www.eiu.com/n/russias-pockets...) have chosen not to align themselves with the U.S. position on the Russia-Ukraine conflict.
Those shifts raise a number of important questions: Where does the Russia-Ukraine war stand today? Are U.S.-China relations headed in the right direction? How will the rise of “nonaligned” countries like India alter the global balance of power? Is America’s longtime global dominance waning?
Fareed Zakaria is host of the CNN show “Fareed Zakaria GPS,” a columnist for The Washington Post, and one of the sharpest foreign policy thinkers of our time. We discuss what possible outcomes of the Russia-Ukraine conflict seem likeliest at this moment, why the U.S.-led sanctions on Russia haven’t been nearly as effective as expected, how the Republican Party’s stance on Ukraine could influence the outcome of the war, why tensions between the United States and China have intensified over the last year, the dangerous implications of the Chinese spy balloon debacle, whether the United States should ban TikTok, how America’s hypocrisy about foreign invasions looks to the rest of the world, why so many Global South countries don’t support the West’s sanctions regime on Russia, what India’s rise means for the future global balance of power, what President Biden’s foreign policy should look like moving forward and more.
Mentioned:
Foreign Affairs’ May/June 2023 issue (www.foreignaffairs.com/issues...)
“The Upside of Rivalry (www.foreignaffairs.com/india/...) ” by Nirupama Rao
The Internationalists (www.simonandschuster.com/book...) by Oona A. Hathaway and Scott J. Shapiro
Book Recommendations:
Imagined Communities (www.versobooks.com/products/1...) by Benedict Anderson
Wealth and Power (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) by Orville Schell and John Delury
The Idea of India (us.macmillan.com/books/978037...) by Sunil Khilnani
Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp (nytimes.com/audioapp)
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. The show’s production team is Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski.

[@georgebratina9394]

Having grown-up listening to the verbose musings of the likes of Henry Kissinger and Alan Greenspan, Fareed Zakaria's ability to explain the intersectionality of foreign policy, economics, and history in plain old common sense is quite delightful.

[@krishnakarthik6]

I love this channel. Long conversations. The anchor does not interrupt the guests. To the point valid and useful questions 👍

[@shahanshah2223]

Zakaria is not expert on these matters, he’s just rattling off conventional thinking

[@davidlai399]

Like everyone making decisions on the ground are experts

[@VoiceBootcampInc]

Neither are u.. but atleast Fareed is internationally known has some credibility then you do...

[@upheaver]

This conversation is an open-mindedness booster! I'm rly glad i got to it.

[@thegt]

Amazingly informative and beautiful conversation. One of the best I heard in months

[@lindakelley2676]

Great discussion. We need much better international relationships to all get along globally. Ive wondered why people in Africa and India seem so pro Putin. George Bush was a war criminal and his illegal wars have come back to bite us, why would other countries trust us? We havent always been good allies and have broken deals and cant continue to police the world.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

What American president wasn't a war criminal? Obama waged a war of aggression against Libya. Clinton bombed Yugoslavia with no justification. Perhaps the only one is the one whom NYT readers don't like, Donald Trump.

[@user-yh2pd6dp9o]

The reason for that people in Africa and India know that we, russians, are not evil people. Many african leaders have got education in russian universities and they know russians well. Some of them even love the days they spent in Russia.

[@paulzx5034]

Another Russian here. My view of the world is more cynical. USA overextend itself in futile attempt of global domination - exactly what Putin predicts back in 2008. Now the West in its weakest point, with only one major power left - and US who need a healthy economy and society to project power abroad now buried itself in all types of crisises one could imagine. Now its a right time for imperialistic wars to divide and swallow a legacy of Pax Americana. With Russian imperialists lead the way to cut the juicy pieces.

[@ireneteaches8994]

The thing is that, while the ordinary American doesn't want to "police the world" -- which was never what the US even imagined, at either the most cynic or the most naive, it was doing, it's just a lefty meme -- the ordinary American is very likely to be a Trumpist. A Trumpist looks with extreme suspicion at any .... what does the Claremont Institute call us ... "citizen aliens" who are even vaguely cosmopolitan and have any interest in other countries, let alone knowledge of them or ties to them. Far better for the US to just extend this intense cultural isolationism back into the political realm, denuclearize, demilitarize, and be a continental Bhutan.

[@caim3465]

@@user-yh2pd6dp9o hello, fellow Russian.

[@claforestrie]

They could not prevent the massive trains catastrophy!

[@KW-hk2jd]

Great conversation. It actually sounded like two civilized people working out nuanced positions rather than talking heads checking off the usual political propaganda.

[@zhaoyan9044]

Zakaria is one of 'fight to the last man of Ukraine' group definitely.

[@stephenhill545]

You want nato boots on the ground there. A lot of citizens in the west agree with you.

[@obiigwe8349]

Delusion and cope layered on pure fantasy.

[@stinkydinkybuttmuffin9693]

Lol so true

[@justhikeit]

Fareed never answered the question about the state of the war. I will answer it for him by saying it is better to be a live chicken than a dead duck. The brave Ukraine soldiers and citizens need to surrender or become brave little dead ducks.

[@khalidalali186]

Fareed Zakaria Blows.

[@smritimoyhalder605]

Yes , Fareed is bang on when he says “ India is still very poor country “. Reality check for India.

[@juliekrolak1450]

Great discussion. I'm so impressed by Farid Zakaria.

[@syedmaricar9946]

Just wishful thinking 😅 media propaganda by stooges.

[@scene2much]

What Farid said about cultural literacy is something I've been wanting to hear from him for at least 15 years. Perhaps he has been saying it but not often enough for me to have heard it. The ethnocentricity of America's elites and leadership is the doorstep upon which every diplomatic and military failure may fairly be laid.

[@josephdappa1340]

I enjoy your podcasts. The Ezra Klein Show with Zakaria is excellent. I find it instructive and educational. Keep up the good job. God bless. jtsdrd, USA

[@CAlicocat711]

Zakharia completely ignores the threat NATO's arming and training of Ukraine brought to Russia's very border. He ignores the US intervention in overthrowing Yanokovich in 2014. He ignores the 114,000 ethnic Russians killed by Ukraine in the Donbas.

[@Grundewalt]

russian trolls are lower and lower quality. Varonya tovarisci ? building a kleptocratic empire for Putler Tsar? The same 3 ,4 lies again and again ? infiltrated and russify Transnistria, Crimea ,Dobnass, Osetia.. Now the world see through your lies Ivan . You are going down, will be North Korea 2.0. NAFO here..

[@cmotptsarkar8340]

He is also a criminal minded like Biden and Zelensky

[@justhikeit]

Zakharia is loyal to his master at CNN and the mainstream media that backs Biden at all cost even if it gets us all killed which it may do at some point if our fabulous government keeps poking that Russian bear. But if Biden and his friends get the world blown up it will all be worth it because we stand up to bullies and what could be more important than that? Excuse me while I throw up.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

114,000 is an exaggeration (I think a typo, as the number is 14,000). But of course, none of these Western propagandists and leaders shedding crocodile tears over civilians casualties gave a damn about ethnic Russians being murdered by their allies - and they still don't.

[@momchilyordanov8190]

It's easy to ignore things that do not exist. Like the fantasies in your list.

[@autobahnmensch]

Completely detached from reality

[@pepsee0]

The Napoleonic Wars resulted in the deaths of approximately three to six million civilians and soldiers, with Napoleon Bonaparte playing a significant role. Similarly, Adolf Hitler, an infamous Nazi leader and mass murderer, was responsible for the death of millions during World War II. Conservative estimates suggest that the war caused casualties ranging from 70 to 85 million, comprising around 3 to 4 percent of the global population. Another example is Joseph Stalin, who deliberately caused the deaths of about six million individuals. Considering foreseeable deaths resulting from his policies, the number rises to around nine million. Likewise, Vladimir Putin, listed as a war criminal by the ICC, initiated airstrikes in Syria in late 2015. The Russian army's invasion has indiscriminately targeted heavily populated civilian areas, resulting in a horrific loss of life. The final casualty count, including casualties from several other countries, is yet to be determined. In the Ukrainian war alone, the estimated number of deaths is at least 500,000. Reflecting on these past wars, it is evident that we have not learned enough. Such atrocities must cease, as individuals like Putin exhibit psychopathic tendencies and disregard human life.

[@jekonimus]

Yes and remember all the wars and warcrimes of US presidents (thus US and its allies) through time. Millions there as well. If we want to be taken seriously we have to be honest at account for both/ all sides.

[@pepsee0]

@@jekonimus No argument, and I agree, but we need to learn from all that misery, and today is today, and it must end today's wars and move forward toward peace. It just started to work a little, and now we have a massive fight.

[@snslifestyleorg]

@@pepsee0 You're such a hypocrite calling Putin a war criminal when it's the US that caused the war in Ukraine. In international relation, there's this thing called minding your own business.

[@simian_essence]

Ezra doesn't challenge his guest on a number of fallacies! He doesn't do his job!! Very unimpressive Ezra, very unimpressive.

[@HelenFrost-le8so]

😟😟😟

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

Fareed Zakaria on the 2003 war against Iraq: "The place is so dysfunctional ... any stirring of the pot is good. America's involvement in the region is for the good." Fareed Zakaria now: "I actually do support the sanctions against Russia." It's always the same people.

[@claforestrie]

The cast system will prevent India from any worlswide emolution!

[@user-ey9fw8su9x]

You're also leaving that eastern Ukraine and Crimea have chosen to be part of Russia rather than Ukraine.

[@rayawake]

So much vocal fry from the host I can barely stand to listen to the great content.

[@davidpitchford6510]

Don't read or listen to the News Warp Times.

[@doitdiddy]

I recalled the Chinese five balloon situation which begin in Canada and a more contested a call was made to the US 2 report this. It seems the stepped in to protect her little brother who is Canada. I am Canadian I'm not ashamed to report the incident as it happened Perhaps it is our salt for expecting the US to be there to save us from that big bad balloon.

[@snslifestyleorg]

Seriously, what catastrophic damage the balloon has caused?

[@AcuteTomato]

How are either of these people qualified to talk about the US proxy war in Ukraine?

[@adamvifrye2690]

i gotta say, the fact that republicans seem to not be able to solidly say "we arent gonna abandon ukraine" really makes it hard for me to vote for them... along with the trump fiasco still ongoing, and the openly hostile trans laws... idk the party seems to be falling apart, and people are tired of wokeness and anti woke.

[@solomonchiponda775]

I need to remind Zakaria the following: * Russia is not like Iraq,Afghanistan or Libya. *Russia has unique weapons of war that the West including the US doesn't have - Ka52 helicopters,Pantsirs, S400 Triump,ICBMs , large nuclear arsenal, Strong Electronic Warfare capabilities,etc. *I don't think that the US and its allies can attack Russia directly because of the threat that it possesses. *Russia has a modernised army and the technological prowess to make advanced weapons. *If Russia was not doing well in Ukraine, how did they manage to take over the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe, annex Crimea, etc *During a war you have to expect both sides to suffer casualities.Overall Russia has taken almost 20% of Ukraine which is huge territory.Its going to be very difficult for Ukraine to take it back.

[@goldiesg]

rubish

[@julianng7935]

Fareed is just as bias as Fox & CNN. I used to watch his show with trust. But now I shunned him and lost all trusts for him.

[@justhikeit]

Me too. I no longer watch his nonsense. This is the first time in a year I watched anything from him and it will be at least a year before I watch him again if ever.

[@fronabulax63]

And what if Ucraine loses the war? What they will by the way.....I never heard somebody talking about this.

[@paulzx5034]

Hi from Russia. 1. Ukraine not a mere "colony", we cant lose it without lose ourselves. 2. Wars of liberation usually succesful because they happen in faraway lands, overseas colonies. For me its hard to imagine we can lose war right on our borders. Because we fight not with some expeditionary force, but with all our might. And.. yes, we do not care about Ukrainians. They may chose to die or flee. This land is ours. Ukraine may exist as friend of Russia or part of Russia. To win - Ukraine must crushing us to the ashes, with or without your help. Anything could be deemed as "Ukraine success" will only lead to another step up on escalation ladder

[@ryszardochucki9975]

The report of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights accuses Azov of war crimes: looting, unlawful detention and torture (and not only them, as far as the Ukrainian forces are concerned. The Wolfsangel, or wolf's hook, is also a well-known neo-Nazi symbol, previously used by the Wehrmacht and SS. However, the Azovs explain that it is an abbreviation of Ідея Нації, i.e. "Idea of the Nation".

[@wegder]

I had a really good impression of India, but the apparent love of Russian Terrorism has caused me to understand that the Indian people are not as nice as I though.

[@horacioventurino7497]

Regretful Mr. Zackaria!😮 Obviously he doesn't understand what he's talking about. Full of desires and lack of objectivity.

[@ryszardochucki9975]

After the war, the OUN circles operating in exile conducted a systematic action of changing history. In publications, studies and memoirs, the topic of cooperation with Germany, participation in the Holocaust and murdering Poles was omitted. The OUN and the UPA were presented as noble organizations fighting for a free Ukraine against two enemies - the Third Reich and the USSR. An idealized image of Bandera was also built as an outstanding politician, leader of the nation, thinker and noble fighter for freedom. All those who recalled the Ukrainian collaboration, participation in the Holocaust and the Volhynia massacre were called Soviet agents. Rossoliński-Liebe

[@Grundewalt]

LOL russia being the most dispicable history changing , talking about another country doing that?? LOL Classic ruzzian projection ivan: others are Nazis, others are terrorists, others are NOT jewish, bla bla , just a lot of bs so to replace the legitimate information on the infospace. The world has come to know that ivan, down't sweat. Everybody know that you imporsontate different nationalities, infiltrate western media and politicians, and when you breath, you lie. VRANYO, everybody knows now to smoke your professional troll farm propaganda, Your are going down this time, try to learn korean or chines, will help..

[@getachewkitila7162]

Unfortunately, Russia will not going to be defeated in Ukraine war because the signals we are seeing is that Russia is holding where they captured after these all western money and weapons supplied to Ukraine but Ukraine couldn’t able to make expected progress

[@darrylviljoen6227]

If you were expecting a blitz like last September. You were always going to be disappointed. This offensive was always going to be a slow grind.

[@fadizaneal-abedeen6873]

Funny guy 🤣

[@johnnyhoops3991]

Broadbrush and general. Shallow. Very disappointing.

[@michelnguyen6642]

I enjoyed it! Thanks!

[@gfscfinance8866]

He is ill informed of about wawei. It stole.all tech from cosco

[@gfscfinance8866]

Cisco

[@thesilkpainter]

Great talk. Thank you for the book recommendations.

[@dol3980]

Great propaganda for those who do not wish to delve into the truth.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Next, interview John Meirshimer for the other perspective. Bet you won't!

[@thesilkpainter]

@kirstin strand...but Prof. Mearsheimer always gives exactly the same message for at least the last ...years. And as much as I think he has some points, he really doesn't give the whole picture. Have you got someone else on the so called 'never heard' side that we could listen to? Btw ..he wasn't the only one predicting this war. Timothy Snyder did. Peter Zeihan did....and they all have different reasons why.

[@The1DUIGuy]

I would love to hear Mearshimer’s “perspective” if he would update it to incorporate the additional information presented since February 24, 2022. His Russia-as-provoked-victim perspective has been repeated often enough to be familiar (color me skeptical), but I have yet to hear him acknowledge any facts that aren’t convenient to his earlier conclusions. A setting where questions are posed and positions are challenged, rather than passively listening to Mearshimer’s monologue, would be an interesting and potentially illuminating listen.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

@@thesilkpainter I'm dying to discover 'thesilkpainter' thinks John Mearsheimer leaves out. Oh, and hilarious to cite Timothy Snyder, whose record of failed predictions is unmatched.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

@@The1DUIGuy "A talk with Mearsheimer where he is confronted with Western propaganda would be illuminating". Quite so, because he'd systematically dismantle the stuff that you are told to believe and did so without question. You're so brainwashed that you think repeating talking points from CNN makes you smarter than John Mearsheimer.

[@stephenhill545]

​@@The1DUIGuythe realist school doesn't have the answers, because they assume that leaders are rational. They fail to take account of irrational belief systems such as fascism.

[@flp6126]

Farid propaganda master nothing else but one thing he said is Ukrainian nationalism will not give up ? I thought nationalism was bad multiculturalism was good farid with one is it make up your mind 😂😂

[@Grundewalt]

rusky lies and totalitarian propaganda minister invented by you Ivan. Ukraine wants to be free like other ex soviet, now prosperous countries, not Belarus type vassal state. Not on your troll script ? try to learn Korean or chinese, time ticking..

[@janesmith506]

42:00 approx., Zacharia says the USA should be capable of countering Chinese propaganda and China's misuse of TikTok. Klein disagrees eloquently and specifically, explaining that Russia and China are focused on weakening the American state of mind however they can, not in promoting their dictatorships as realistic alternatives to the USA. By the American state of mind I mean our keeping our own social and political discourse from spiralling even further out of control than it has since Obama became president (Obama, Trump, and Biden have all been exceedingly partisan.) Partisanship has overwhelmed us and hurt us. Demonizing our political opponents is wrong, and Russia and China promote, magnify, and produce content online for the purpose of making Americans believe we all hate each other. I know we don't hate each other usually, but if you spend enough time online, it will warp your outlook.

[@mikecrampton7086]

'The Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia ...' This statement assumes that there is a 'nation' called Ukraine, In fact the word 'Ukraine' means 'borderlands' and has been part of Russia for centuries. It was only called a separate country thirty years ago by Americans who installed their own clown as 'president' and began to treat the territory as an extra state of the USA. Russia has to reclaim its land, inhabited largely by Russians.

[@user-eq4fe7zu9b]

The western half of Ukraine was for the most part, owned by Poland. The eastern half was, for the most part, owned by Russia.

[@ramastarchild6804]

Just because it isn't an older nation -- doesn't mean it isn't a nation now. The Ukrainian have spoken...they do not choose to be part of Russia.

[@Centurion101B3C]

Amazing, Ezra is preaching control-obsession and Fareed is voicing (and likely actually believing) a practical implementation of freedom (and reasonable avoidance of mentioned control-issues).

[@ryszardochucki9975]

Losses of the Polish population as a result of the genocidal actions of the OUN-UPA and other Ukrainian nationalist organizations, being the sum of the number of documented and estimated victims for five provinces, amount to at least 133,800 Poles. There are also larger numbers ranging from 150,000 to as much as 200,000 victims in various places.

[@davidangeron3365]

Fraud!!!

[@PatrickOneil-cd1mq]

Last multi national empire, what about NATO.

[@romanpistryak6070]

You obviously have no idea how either Russia or NATO are set up

[@Grundewalt]

lol Serious ivan ?? last empire , rusky and NATO , a defensive organization EXACTLY because your bellicose stance from ww2 ended...So, whataobout every other nations being nazi (not you ruscist) everybody is terrrorist, not you a terrorist state. The emperor is naked Igor, ...

[@adamrussell4703]

My gaydar just sounded loud sirens.

[@volantisessos9120]

wrong

[@narenperera]

War monger

[@golamrahman9572]

Why not tell the truth to the people of USA, ? Why start the war ?

[@davidbowman5646]

clowns

[@fatdaddy1996]

Crikey, this is embarrassing nonsense isn't it? You guys live in your imaginations don't you?

[@1seacreature]

what a load of fantistical thinkig

[@mariaamroussi6142]

😮🙄🤔 UKRAINE CANNOT AND WILL NOT WIN ON ANY BATTLEFIELD .

[@romanpistryak6070]

200,000 dead Russian soldiers disagree with you

[@The1DUIGuy]

Yeah, Russia has been doing an easy-peasy rollover of Ukraine… 16 months into its initiation of war. 😏 Other than Russia’s absolute domination of civilian infrastructure destruction and the of killing civilians far from the front lines where soldiers from both sides can meet with some degree of honor or integrity, what “battlefields” are you pointing to for your premise?