Diagnosing Catastrophic Damage on our N20 Powered 328si - Learning From Our Mistakes!

[@aaronware8459]

Man this comment section…... Big ups to FCPEuro for making this video. You could have said nothing but you did. Please keep the N20 content coming. We always see when things go right and this helps us see what can go wrong. I know there is a wiki but there are some that learn better from a visual medium. Maybe this is the perfect time for those N20 Darton Sleeves….. FCP/Navardi ????? It’s on my list of things to get. I hope y’all work together to bring this 328si to life.

[@fcpeuro-media]

We pride ourselves on being as transparent a company as we possibly can - that even means when we make mistakes on things like projects! As any other enthusiast would, we learn from mistakes and come back stronger. Appreciate the support!

[@fauzansheikh4382]

Hopes and dreams of n20 owners (including myself) on the line. You guys need build this engine! Coming from a longtime FCPEuro customer and follower.

[@fcpeuro-media]

There is still plenty of hope! Coming back even stronger 💪learning from our own mistakes!

[@fauzansheikh4382]

@@fcpeuro-media I love it!

[@NavardiTuned]

Hey! We did reach out via a comment on your first video if you wanted some help we would be happy to assist. This could have been easily avoided, we have the most development on this engine globally and have alot of resources available for it If you'd like to still work with us on this build let us know.

[@heckheckers3353]

Time to build the motor!

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

Hey @Navardituned! We're excited to see where this next path with project 328si takes us, and hopefully we can take the time to get a proper ECU calibration from you guys! While many are making it seem as if we deliberately ignored quality tuning options, it's very important to understand what our goal here was, and that we've touched a huge amount of project 328si other than just the engine. Infact, Gareth pretty much looked like he ventered into a coal mine for several weeks straight as he upgraded the coilovers, diff, axles, coolers, bushings, chassis, performing a timing chain service, turbo replacement, and on top of that added many new SKUs and applied his findings to our catalog to improve the N20 owners experience at FCP euro. All of this was happening while regular DIYs and other production was going on, too. So with that said, our main focus with builds is to learn a platform and improve the catalog at FCP euro. So when something such as custom engine tuning wouldn't be available from the FCP Euro catalog, we try to look for what the next best - most bolt-on style option is - one that could empower our community to do-it-themselves. Its for these reasons that the bootmod3 OTS maps made a lot of sense. None of us were that familiar with bootmod3's custom tuning functionality either, so the idea of a custom tune didn't seem ideal for the aforementioned build vision. Since then, we've learned much more about the engine, the N20 tuning community, and of course how sensitive it can be to even a slight mis-calibration. We're excited to see the communities eagerness to push this platform, and you can be sure I'm looking forward to drifting it again 🙂.

[@Tare23-m1v]

⁠@@AlexNelsonFCPEurolack of research. You guys said there were no baffled oil pans available which was not true and could have possibly saved your engine if you used NavardiTuned’s kit instead…. Upgraded turbo on an off the shelf tune designed for the stock turbo is obviously an absurd thing to do especially with track duty. No surprise with the results all you have done is give a stupid build guide for an engine that’s clearly sensitive.

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

@Tare23-m1v The OTS tune was for this upgraded turbo. It's a pretty common upgrade. Also - extensive testing was performed with our baffle. Which - in hindsight - looks to cover the same areas of the sump a the Navardi item. Also, we were looking for bolt-in baffle solutions, which there are none of.

[@TNStories]

​@@AlexNelsonFCPEuroFor what it's worth, there is no such thing as an OTS tune for an upgraded turbo on the N20. All turbo upgrades need a custom tune, and there's a strong chance at needing at least an HPFP upgrade as well.

[@remrix]

Please do a teardown video it would be awesome to see the full extent of the damage and what is reusable from this engine. And I think we all would love to see a rebuild and what more you can do with the n20 platform! Thanks for another great video 👌

[@DannyPinedo]

Dang, definitely not the next video we were expecting from this series. Please give this engine a proper build alongside Navardi 🙏🏾 Also would love to see that partnership grow to having their oil baffles/kits in stock in the US, too.

[@fcpeuro-media]

Not the video we planned to make next - trust us! More to come though, thanks for sticking with us

[@Kchoate02]

Yes to all of the above!!! Would love to see more n20 whether you do a full build or just see how long it lasts. Thank you for everything!!

[@NWA_1919]

Very interesting the way you explained the oil preassure and rod push power equation, and how it leads to these issues. Never thought about it but when you think about the physics, it all makes sense

[@izzys_customs]

I have a 2015 428i with the N26. The N20/N26 is a great motor for the most part😂it delivers power smoothly and is quite a riot in the corners with even stock suspension, I have b15 Bilstein fully adjustable suspension. I had to learn the hard way by tuning the car and putting FBO and running a burble tune without reinforcing the internals. The n20 n26 was never meant to be pushed to its limits but with forged internals you have a better chance of getting to the car to react better to all the bolt ons I have. I had a similar issue with cylinder 3 it had low compression due to a spark plug cracking and falling into the cylinder and gouging the wall. I got the block sleeved with ductile iron sleeves from Darton in Los Angeles CA I’m in the process of fully building a N26 with Carrillo Pistons with stock compression 9.2:1 with 84mm bore size. Then I got forged rods from Maxspeeding. It has FBO like I said and I plan on running a B58tu with M5 EU5 injector’s when the motor is done everything will be on KZbin. I would rebuild it you don’t need an M or 6 cylinder car to have fun.

[@ciscovip1]

Yes do a engine disassembly, and want to see a rebuild of a better format of that engine platform

[@TheJPenguin]

Definitely would love to see a full teardown, then you can verify the state of the timing system and seeing the state of the piston would confirm what the boroscope appeared to show. Of course I also just love watching engine teardown videos in general but .....

[@AshSavageTube]

I think what you guys said about the variable oil pump taking time to build pressure could have likely been the culprit. When you guys do the motor tear down, it would be great to see if the increased boost pressure has affected the head, apparently some suffer from stress around the spark plug and start cracking. Also curious about that "nerdy" explanation of the oil not being to spec for higher horsepower and what the recommendation would be. This series is great guys, learning a lot!

[@briskdrake]

Just fyi on the bearing info. The tabs on the bearings are just for installation purposes, the clamping forces from torquing the end caps locks the bearings in place 18:45

[@weijenang9262]

Following closely, hope to build one just like yours

[@TriNguyen-co6ju]

definitely needed the help of Navardi Tuned, who spent a lot of time and effort in the past years to get the N2x/B4x platform where it is today. we understand that your guy’s goal is to use off the shelf parts from your catalog instead of going custom/aftermarket, which is consumer friendly, but theres definitely a line between doing things fully correct vs “if it works it works.” considering the N20 vids were made to help out fellow N20 owners, doing the entire project “fully correct” would’ve led to results that weren’t catastrophic.

[@fcpeuro-media]

We will be reaching out for the rebuild! The intentions were there, and we had no issues driving the car HARD for just about a year (the series came out about a year after we finished it in reality) - but even we are learning when it comes to some of these platforms and builds. Appreciate your insight, and totally understand where you are coming from, our goal is never to be misleading!

[@TriNguyen-co6ju]

@@fcpeuro-media thats awesome! Navardi is a great guy to work with and hopefully with your videos, it can shine more light onto the N20 platform and show its potential. glad to see what comes next for you guys and good luck!

[@sriv6714]

Full tear down and build the motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@lilholy3279]

Would definitely love to see this car pushed to its limits! I recently picked up one as a daily, I don't have any intentions of ever tracking it, but would still like to tune and beat on it just a little more.

[@79adventures]

Don't do it, you'll regret tuning it

[@fcpeuro-media]

We love the way it handles, once we properly sort out how to make the N20 happy in a track scenario with more power - this car will look, feel, and drive like an absolute beast.

[@gyallis4life617]

Can we have a n55 build now ?

[@weaverhchrist]

BUILD IT!

[@fcpeuro-media]

And the crowd cheers "BUILD IT! BUILD IT! BUILD IT!"

[@Tayboxer879]

Push the N20 to the max. I own an N26 and am curious to how far these engines can go. Also, how far into miles were you on the track before this happened?

[@fcpeuro-media]

We are considering doing a fully built N20 to get the car back up and running 😊

[@NavardiTuned]

DM/Email us, we have developed this platform extensively and have a great Wiki we put together for people so they can avoid the common issues with this motor. When looked after and with all the right supporting hardware a stock motor will handle up to 400whp as long as you keep tq under 500nm These motors do require abit more TLC over others to be reliable

[@TNStories]

​@@fcpeuro-mediaEveryone is saying it already, but get in touch with Navardi guys. Nobody else knows how to properly build and tune an N20. Do it right if you're spending the time and money to build the thing!

[@N5XBEVST]

@@fcpeuro-mediasick I think y’all should definitely do it would be really awesome

[@fauzansheikh4382]

FCP/Navardi collab???

[@Maverna1993]

Curious if there's any update on the oil pressure flow valve giving delayed oil pressure

[@aldomartinez6921]

Build N20!

[@bmwracer94]

You need a Navardi Tuned darton sleeved engine! They are the go to n20 specialists!

[@MeganKeeling-o2o]

Maybe I missed it but I thought it was common knowledge in high HP N20 builds that the Conrod bolts were weak sauce from factory and upgrading them was one of the biggest core required upgrades before forged parts. It was first thought the rods and bearings were bad but it’s that the factory bolts stretched, leading to the rod knock.

[@Sqwin_n20]

Believe it or not it’s not the bolts. Have found connecting rods to have the same limitations with the stock bolts or arp bolts :)

[@MeganKeeling-o2o]

@@Sqwin_n20 I think I only saw a few posts that mentioned the bolts being the main underlying cause. ARP bolts aren’t cheap but significantly less than pistons and rods! I think if you’re going big turbo, kinda have to bite the bullet and do the whole shebang. For me, the oil pan was by far the hardest and longest endeavour on my timing component replacement. The Xdrive oil pan is its own monster to remove.

[@Sqwin_n20]

@@MeganKeeling-o2o yeah from 7 years ago and the BP forums. It’s not actually a thing which was confirmed afterwards.

[@NavardiTuned]

They share the same rod bolts as the M54, B48, B58 ETC

[@fcpeuro-media]

X-drive pan removals will do that to ya 😆

[@lagoon7tube]

i have a 2014 n20 with m package with 78K MILES please rebuild love to see this. i am worried about the timing chain.

[@johncoss5604]

I have heard the N20's were not good engines and not to buy a BMW with that engine. If you do teardown or do a build of an N20 maybe that would give the viewers some knowledge to the quality of the engine. I would be interested in watching that video.

[@Sqwin_n20]

There are a couple. HeadGames has a building a head of an n20 (mine) on their YT channel, geo dayrit ( YT Channel) shows a proper n20 build and assembly as well.

[@e92willard]

project random has an interesting build for an n20

[@Sqwin_n20]

@@e92willard I wouldn't use project random as a ideal person to look at for a proper build in my humble opinion. they cut some corners in some areas and are trying to reinvent the wheel in others.

[@e92willard]

@@Sqwin_n20 It’s far from the best thing to follow, It’s still interesting to watch though. I am excited for yours though.

[@brittheffernan9662]

Yes - painful to watch --- I have a 2015 M235i with a Spun Rod Bearing -- trying to decide where to source a new / used engine. Any suggestions? Car-Part list 90K Mile engines for $8500 -- WOW! Expensive. Engine was well maintained, 5K oil changes. Mods: BM3 Stage 1, DP, IC, CP .

[@Bavarian_M]

Build one please!

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

Hey all! I just wanted to note that our baffle testing video - which we filmed in March - has not debuted due to the long process of integrating our own parts manufacturing strategy, and as such could make this video a bit alarming. We/ I performed a TON of testing up at Lime Rock Park with our baffle and this car setup, with data logging and real-time readout of data on camera which showed us some great improvements to oil pressure under load with both high lateral and high longitudinal g-forces. 14-23psi was pretty typical stock oil pressure under hard braking and cornering. After installing the baffle we were seeing 38-70psi in the same load cases. We even drifted 328si with 4 people in it, in 4th gear, with sustained oil pressure between 50 and 70psi. So with that said, I really feel that this failure was predominantly down to pre-ignition. That day at COTA was unbelievably hot out, and the car was pretty well heatsoaked and had not been driven hard in some time (old gas). It's obviously a shame we didn't go further than an OTS tune, but it was an OTS tune suited for our turbo. Ultimately, we may never know exactly what caused this failure, and we're excited to work with an experienced N20 calibrate such as Navardi should we decide to keep pushing the N20. Thanks for watching, and we hope to continue building our N20 catalog based on first hand real world experiences with the platform.

[@NavardiTuned]

Just going to throw my 2 cents in here.. Without a datalog during the lead up and during the failure it's going to be just hypothesis's as to the cause. Whilst I noticed some pitting in your video not ruling out some level of detonation etc. On the N20 I've actually only ever seen superknock/knock and pre-ignition once cause minor damage to rod bearings and minor deformation of the conrod small end brass bushing on a early iteration of the built N20 sleeve development phase, where we loaded up 33psi, after our 10th pull we unfortunately had our HPFP fail on us, causing rail pressure to drop and the car to severely lean out during a pull in this instance we determined it was a defective OE HPFP. It caused a concentric split in the flanged sleeves which was due to several design flaws, the CP Carillo piston had no damage and the max speeding rod suffered significant deformation of the brass little end, with pressure wave impact marks on the rod bearings with no rod knock My point here is that in my experience for the N20, the stock pistons will fail very quickly under pre-ignition and detonation so much more quickly than rod knock. Given what looked like pitting and what I know of the tune id be hard pressed to say that that level of detonation or pre-ign was enough to cause rod knock even if it was to happen in one of those small load cell change windows where target oil pressure might be abit less than what you want for a track set-up - the turbo does not spool back up quick enough to have induced that before the oil pressure comes back up in the data and experience I have. From what I saw cyl.4 looked alot worse than 3 from a pitting /crown damage perspective so that should have had the damaged bearing more so than 3. Shame we didn't get to see the pistons stripped out of the engine in this video although I assume there is one coming, I'd be interested to see what the rotating assembly looked like on removal from the block. Only so much can be determined from a KZbin video. Logging any track session would always be a wise thing to do just to cover having the data in an event there is a failure and to properly contribute to an engine failure diagnosis.

[@fcpeuro-media]

We massively regret not running a datalog when this happened as that would have given us a whole lot more to go off of 😕 All great insights though, appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on the topic. We'll be reaching out before we put this project back together!

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

@@NavardiTuned That's some awesome insight! We did have codes for dropping fuel pressure stored from that day, so it's safe to assume our HPFP could have been failing. This obviously would have compounded effects - having the incorrect tune and a non-upgraded pump with respect to a lean scenario.

[@davidrubin2612]

1. comments here talking about how bad the N20 is are totally wrong 2. if this was done properly w navardi input and help it would be running strong

[@alifffarhan8341]

Any updates?

[@fcpeuro-media]

Update in post-production - car is up and running!

[@Vicvaidesrad]

What oil and viscosity did you use?

[@benstracke3484]

those "tangs" do not prevent the bearing from spinning. they are locators to center the bearings. the crush of the bearings is what keeps them in place.

[@TNStories]

Have you guys worked with Navardi much for this? They're the worldwide leaders for N20 development and are an ideal resource to have with a project on this motor. Curious why not if you haven't...?

[@fcpeuro-media]

We are this time around! We built this car prior to talking about a potential collaboration with them (last year) - now it makes even more sense 😕

[@eshvirg5453]

Ive been doing grip driving in my f30 328i for the last 50000 miles and my oil pressure control valve has been buzzing for the last 30k miles, my timing chain is not done at 107k miles and my car still drives perfectly no matter what I throw at it

[@fcpeuro-media]

Even if that's not the norm - love to hear that! Are you doing AutoX or Track days?

[@eshvirg5453]

@@fcpeuro-media trackdays and canyons, basically daily drive it on the mountains here in socal doing tight technical courses for the last two years

[@HellingGolf]

Tear It down and build a 450 HP N20!!!

[@fcpeuro-media]

We are tempted 🙂

[@HellingGolf]

Then there atleast be a reasonable excuse for blowing the engine @fcpeuro-media

[@aliharis6607]

My guess is the engineered plate in the oil pan caused the issue

[@tomasis7]

want more!

[@fcpeuro-media]

you'll get more

[@flacko_ccc]

Rebuild!! I would be very interested what else you can do for the N20 platform. Pin this comment for the base model build fans 🎉

[@pr33tu_]

Just curious, what tuner company was used on the car?

[@fcpeuro-media]

Off the shelf Bootmod3 tune but with an upgraded factory turbo - problem may have come in from running it with all the torque limiting removed 🤐

[@Sqwin_n20]

There isn’t a torque issue until 385-390 wheel torque. After that is. Ask me how I know many of us have proven this. I ran 360-370 wheel torque for nearly 4 years on an upgraded turbo before building the motor anyway. Motor was 100% clean and looked in great health when tearing it down. They needed to run an oil cooler and with only 22psi and the “MHI turbo” it’s not boost related. They did active track days with the car. Gplus, improved racing makes an oil filter housing thermostat starter kit to run an external oil cooler to reduce oil temps when hot lapping.

[@d.l.carstens505]

Rebuild! But better 😁

[@MeganKeeling-o2o]

@@Sqwin_n20I’m just on my first week of stage 2 91 on my ‘15 328i Xdrive N20. I have logging to do. If I don’t track it, outside of CP, TIP, IC that everyone does, next support mod before pushing higher?

[@Sqwin_n20]

@@MeganKeeling-o2o not sure how you are running stage 2 without a downpipe. If that’s what you don’t have you do that next (downpipe) and follow up with a turbosmart diverter valve upgrade. after that is the full exhaust and intake. That’s about everything without looking at custom Tunes and running ethanol. I hope you have xHP as that really changes the car as well. Cheers

[@DmitryPopkins]

yes, I'm waiting for a 500 horsepower n20

[@Flip_Angle]

Teardown please

[@marcomoya6599]

Por favor Build it...

[@mattmonroe8993]

N20 450hp lets gooo

[@cowboyjules28]

How extreme of a tune were you guys running? More than 300hp? Wondering if my simple Dinan $600 tune is gonna be dangerous

[@fcpeuro-media]

A Dinan tune will be substiantially safer than what we were trying to do with this car. We were for sure over 300hp

[@Sqwin_n20]

They used an OTS tune for a slightly larger turbo. Sadly they refused to listen to the people who have actively built these things to be safe. Oil starvation is a thing no matter what. Navardi tuned is the only oil baffle upgrade which has been shown to work thus far.

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

​​@@Sqwin_n20We performed extensive testing and oil pressure vs g-force and RPM data-logging at Lime Rock using our baffle. We found a night and day difference in oil pressure under both braking and turning, with an especially notable improvement in left-hand turns from the prevention of oil slosh into the side of the pan. We went from seeing 14-23psi under load to 40-65psi under the same conditions. We filmed a video on this, and we're looking forward to finalizing the supply chain side of making our own components so we can publish that film. As far as tuning, the majority of the work on this car was performed around the f30s suspension, chassis, or other drivetrain components. Without much familiarity with the N20s tunability, we wanted to do something which could be easily replicated at home, just as we strive for with our DIYs. We were also pretty unfamiliar at the time with bootmod3s awesome custom-tune functionality, so that still seemed pretty impractical for the average N20 customer at the time. We've now certainly learned our lesson with the OTS map and the N20, and we're looking forward to putting some real talent behind the engine build and tune!

[@Sqwin_n20]

@@AlexNelsonFCPEuro I appreciate the response, unfortunately with your video, your slight engine tear down showed issued of oil starvation. Thus is shown on the crank. This also is seen from the skirts on the piston rings. Someone didn't check the oil level before hot lapping the car and drifting. I don't think your oil pickup baffle took account for drifting the car, only for sweeping turns and hard stops in straight lines. Can't really place the blame game on one outcome, but there are multiple variables which this could have occurred. There are more than a handful of folks drifting and utilizing the Navardi tuned baffled oil pan design. I would recommend you pick one up, and if you find the same success as the rest of us, pay the man for his research and design. I'm not sure if you recall, but for the Bimmerworld racing n20 powered n20s, they made a custom oil pan which held 2 more quarts of oil if im not mistaken to ensure oil starvation wasn't an issue as well. Good luck finding those oil pans as many of us have reached out to Dinan + Bimmerworld and they refuse to make more even with a group buy. Many of us are really truly rooting for you, but please take into consideration from those of use who have put money into this platform and have navigated which direction is the proper right way to do things for a n20 which surprises all who drive and encounters them with the proper tune and mods. Many of us run a b58tu hpfp bought from FCP (needs a custom feed line from the quick disconnect fitting near the firewall) on the n20 with stock tunes without issue. the factory HPFP is crap. We also pair that hpfp with eu5 s63tu injectors and a custom tune calibration for fuel flow up to 400whp on full e85. This is using your catalog minus the custom -6an fuel line. Please rebuild better and if you actually listen to us, you will find what you are missing out on how well this motor shines when on full e85 despite the screams from the internet "the n20 sucks" Cheers!

[@AlexNelsonFCPEuro]

@Sqwin_n20 Taking a look at the Navardi design now - our design covers very similar areas of the sump, it's just one piece as opposed to multiple welded together segments. With bimmerworld, Roush was actually building their engines, and they still had engine failures. Hot rodding is hot rodding, at the end of the day - stuff breaks! We're excited to try proper fueling and tuning and prove people wrong about the N20!

[@Slowcarfastbeans]

Bent rod test is only good if not all the rods are bent.

[@TheJPenguin]

Bending all the rods by exactly the same amount doesn't seem all that likely, ending up deleting all the bearings perhaps is slightly more likely but considering how simple this test is to do it is worthwhile.

[@Slowcarfastbeans]

@@TheJPenguin okay fair point but i counter with - it doesn’t have to be an exact amount, just within the variation of the gage which isn’t that great in this case.

[@jhalkoski]

did i see a fucking QR code on the piston? lol

[@LyfeOfJr]

engine rebuild

[@stevhandingwall2028]

Solution put a Mitsubishi evolution 4g63 engine in it

[@davidhenry4265]

Should of done upgraded rod bearings with arp rod bolts you noobs

[@MrSamPhoenix]

Just swap a B48 in there already.

[@JohnEighty3]

Make 450hp n20

[@Slowcarfastbeans]

Wankels are better. Can’t rod knock when there’s no rods.

[@fcpeuro-media]

Ya not wrong!

[@DriveDynamicsAz]

Should of did a f30 b48/b46 would want to see exactly what you guys did here with b48 platform would be viral never been done before besides n20 already been pushed to limits shout out my tuner Narvadi

[@fcpeuro-media]

We have B48 plans... dont worry !

[@mammutit]

I think this should be the end of the N20 series, its not reliable stock so taking more out is just another disappointment waiting to happen