Fertility crisis: are women leaving it too late? | SpectatorTV

Stephen J Shaw joins Kate Andrews and Mary Wakefield for Spectator TV to talk about the global fall in birthrates; what this means for an ageing population and what can be done to fix the problem.
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[@FrikaWies]

They told us that the worst thing that could happen to us young women is to get pregnant. Our fathers told us girls that we shouldn‘t go on dates with young men but rather focus on our education. They now are in grief about not having grandchildren and seeing their ancestry line end.

[@katrionalaurenm]

Yes! Well done, Gold star for you!

[@c.i.8770]

Well done. You put a few words together and wrote a comment.. sort of

[@FrikaWies]

@@c.i.8770 What‘s wrong with my comment?

[@lucyh4355]

I agree with your comment, except in my experience it was mothers, schools & society as a whole. Everyone was ambitious on our behalf & having a child young would be to fail in life.

[@miriamwells35]

Exactly

[@Elizabeth-jd3mn]

Do something about housing costs.6% interest rates, salaries that have lagged house prices, childcare costs, or a Conservative mum who wants to stay at home to bring them up but can't afford to on one 1 salary. There is no recognition of the real problems. I'm fully aware of fertility but you don't seem to understand the practical problems. Too many radical feminists who have created a toxic man hating environment. Who the hell wants a toxic feminist.

[@danielamgs1]

In the US at least, housing costs are high, but also the houses are considerably bigger and fancier on average than the homes purchased by previous generations. Why is everything targeted like a luxury good now and why do we keep buying it?

[@sweden_is_xxxx]

Well you're funny. And btw I'm not arguing with you personally. Many people talk about the housing costs etc. And yet in many African countries women have less that 2% of what you have (in terms of money) and still they have 4 children...or 7. 😉 Us westerners have become a bit spoiled haven't we? And before you hate me...yes, I'm definitely no different. I want my apartment, my car, my overseas vacations every year etc.. 😂

[@freebornjohn2687]

The young people I know don't feel secure enough to have kids. They are also worried about the future and this Government is not even providing hope.

[@barrymanilow3893]

Why is the birthrate high in Africa then when it is much less secure than the west?

[@freebornjohn2687]

There's a general view that in societies that are poor people have more children because they have no birth control, high infant mortality, they need the help and to look after them in old age. As people get richer they stop having so many children. In advanced economies you normally need both parents working to make a go of it. I saw a comment awhile back that Italian women were choosing Gucci handbags over having children. They wanted to look nice but couldn't afford to if they had babies. Its leading to very top heavy societies and the young are having to carry a lot of old people. In the UK where we have a Tory voting older generation and a younger generation who live insecure rented accommodation. This its going to lead to ever more friction. @@barrymanilow3893

[@es6544]

​@@barrymanilow3893 Because it's their tradition. Dah

[@Shikuesi]

@@es6544 and it used to be ours too. Why isn't it anymore, and what's to stop the African tradition disappearing too?

[@Laughing_Individual]

@@Shikuesi In Africa and other similar areas it was a way to guarantee survival along with strong traditions. In westernised countries there are "safety nets" along with distractions to keep us in a state of mediocrity. The more "conveniences" we got, the more complacent we be became. None one's in a rush to have kids. We can be distracted by by hedonistic pleasures and forsake our biological imperative. Just look the the younger generation. An alarming percentage of them want to be something other than human. Especially the girls. While the people who are truly in control i.e. the rich, who own everything you consume aka our feudal lords, get to profit off our stagnation. Everything will eventually become a subscription and you'll forever be a wage slave to constantly consume. "You'll own nothing, you'll be happy"

[@alphacause]

A big problem that really prevents men and women from getting together at the optimal time to have a family is the penchant of many women towards hypergamy. As women ascend both the educational and professional ladder, they continue to seek men who are of equal or superior educational and financial status. As a result, this pool of men who are deemed desirable by hypergamous women becomes smaller and smaller as women are increasingly surpassing men in educational attainment and professional success. This desire for men of superior status made sense when women were precluded from high levels of education and good paying professions by culture. That is no longer the case and this outdated preference is working toward the detriment of society.

[@es6544]

It makes sense because it's natural. What is unnatural is to expect working woman to be a good mother of 3 kids.

[@c.i.8770]

Hmm…are you a man, I wonder

[@Shikuesi]

@@es6544 second-wave feminism has a lot to answer for

[@bdott1538]

@@Shikuesinah, capitalism does.

[@TheWilliammwill]

I was massively put off dating once I saw how women behaved on social media. Why would any man risk it? The recent birth rate decline appears to correlate with the advent of social media.

[@es6544]

No it corellates with men wanting their wives to work and their girlfriends to have sex on the first date. You cannot have it both ways. Either you provide for the family and date a woman who doesn't sleep around or you have no grandkids.

[@Shikuesi]

@@es6544 the advent of grandchildren is really outside your control. And men don't "want" their wives to work but generally need it under modern economic conditions - again, out of their control. Sucks big time

[@dulcamarabuffo]

When the courts make divorce for women to be less of a boon to them, men might step up to the plate more readily.

[@ninjac8866]

We were very lucky to become parents in our early 40s. Before our child was born I had accepted with sadness that it was likely too late to have a baby so I cherish every moment. My issues were pressure from my family to get a degree and career, parental divorce putting me off being a parent, meeting my partner in our late 20s and not being ready for kids, maternity leave and return to work options being terrible when I worked in the NHS. Colleagues who came back to work part-time basically did 3 days work and 1 day unpaid admin at home. As I run my own business, I only had statutory maternity pay which just covered the rent on my work premises and nothing else. We need affordable childcare, parental paid leave and a change to societal attitudes about stay-at-home parents and dads in particular. Finland isn't perfect but is a good example of affordable childcare and better paternity leave.

[@alphacause]

Thank you for having Stephen J Shaw on your show. Few are talking about the birthrate crisis, so I am pleased that you are giving him a platform to speak. He has been on the forefront of this issue, and his documentary, Birthgap, is a must watch. It seems like we are a victim of our own prosperity. Life has become so convenient and so inundated with distractions. We have become so enamored by superficial aspirations and, as a result, we sacrifice the one aspiration - having families - which has existential consequences. I am guilty of this.

[@kosiekoos9408]

Nope its the birth co trol tablets that destroy fertility

[@Nagisasan36]

First-time father aged 52 here. Let me add a point I never hear: have them young because children are hard work and you need the energy of youth. When I say hard work I mean exactly that. I’ve had physically demanding jobs my whole life, and none compare to the gruelling hard work of caring for an infant. Consider this, if you knew you had to start and complete an iron man triathlon, would you do it aged 28-32, or 52? It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done. My second point, don’t let the above put you off. Anything rewarding must be difficult by definition. I never knew real joy and meaning until we had this little kid. Suddenly life is in technicolour and stereo sound. I shudder to think I almost passed through my life without knowing this.

[@c.f.okonta8815]

@@Nagisasan36 why did you wait so long before having a kid

[@vladimirdosen9767]

You all missed the target. According to you better app will resolve the problem. Answer is much more scary. Having kids are more economically i logistically complicated and unsustainable- then ever in individualistic societies ( based on consumer). And there are attractive cheaper easier alternatives ( media, hobbies etc. ) available. We do not rely on family, we relay on economic system and state. Economic system made new generations poor and reliant on credit. State is not interested in more kids. Much cheaper is importing ready made tax-payers.

[@c.i.8770]

If fertility has declined so steeply today… let’s just wait to see the gen z figures in a few years, and the multi layered kids of today …perfect for AI

[@old_toucs6283]

It's obvious. Imagine a young man surrounded by feminist teachers, divorced older men, thots, HR diversity obsession and anti-men logic behind any law, rule or social norm. Now consider how much a woman will cost him. Half his salary and half his pension plus the right to take property and any children from him permanently with the full backing of the law to make him continue to pay for it all. That has to be worth upwards of two million just doing a simple calculation. Most woman are asking a laughable price. Now consider what our young man could do with two million if he skipped women. That's a lot of hobbies. Why would our young man even want a date with a modern woman? You will notice that these issues are never addressed, the solution is always to double down, increase the intensity of what is happening and tax men to pay for it while trying to shame them into seeing it their way.

[@HInc7647]

I turned 36 this year and me and my partner of 10 years have only just started to think about having children. So many reasons why we haven’t dont it yet. Childcare- it is sooo expensive in the UK - a least a 1000 GBP per month of going back to work full time. Mat leave - is unfair. My work you have to be there over 6 month get an more that the basic government statute pay. Over 18 months to get 6 months full pay and that has only just increased from 3 months full pay. Cost of living - life is generally fecking expensive. Freedom / fun - I have a fun time with my disposable income and have the freedom to do generally what I want. Home / mortgage - our mortgage is expensive and we only at around 30 just bought our home with no help from family. Family - all our family is all over the place so we will have no support with childcare. Time - with children all of your time disappears. Lack of sleep to start with. Career - having to juggle all that while managing a full time job. Nothing is making it appealing.

[@c.i.8770]

With things on the list like freedom, fun, lack of sleep … I wonder if anything else is really that valid or just perhaps selfish . Not everyone is fit to be a good parent and other are happier without children - and vice versa

[@Martin-jd3oc]

All of that is true but you will in all likelihood come to regret not having children. So just take the plunge. It will be fine. No great!

[@bdott1538]

@@Martin-jd3occhildren are too important to just take the plunge if you’re sure you really want them. Too many parents resent having kids to take this lightly.

[@sweden_is_xxxx]

​​@@c.i.8770 Until 1970 NOBODY in the world was complaining (sort of). After 1970 starting in western countries and Japan, and later in the rest of Asia as well as South America, people began to come up with a million reasons not to have kids. Today only Africans are still doing it like all people did it until the 1960s. 😉 Housing costs, child care, my personal freeeeedom and career etc? Africans: "who gives a fq!!!" 😂

[@miriamwells35]

Yes we are because we have no confidence in the future

[@ProvocativeSloth]

Fertility crisis: are men giving up fatherhood?

[@jamesheseltine8283]

Build more houses - it’s simple

[@old_toucs6283]

They are building more houses. A low marriage rate, high divorce rate and high immigration is filling them up faster than they are being built.

[@a.scotth.9955]

Are there more aborted babies then live births?

[@alphacause]

That is a great question.

[@l.3626]

probably, Im pro banning abortion bc of moral reasons, but banning abortions wont get the birth rate up

[@sweden_is_xxxx]

My sister is approaching 50 without kids. That's in my opinion a really good thing. 😉 And yeah she's had at least 2 abortions that I know of.

[@l.3626]

@@sweden_is_xxxx yeah, abortions maybe create a moral hazard, meaning woman who go for more risk have an advantage but no downside BC they can abort. So moral woman are at disadvantage. Banning abortion could remove the moral hazard and make people adjust their risks.

[@sweden_is_xxxx]

@@l.3626 First time (that I know if) my sister got pregnant she was in Ireland. She had to go back home to Sweden (in panic) to have a free abortion. Free for her, expensive for the taxpayers. 😉 I'm happy she did. We hate each other. Now my kids will inherit everything my parents have. 👍

[@cypresse1620]

because it’s impossible to find an emotionally stable man who can commit!

[@rg7122]

Literally. Plus it’s a very expensive world to live in- I don’t care what they say at the daily wire! 🙄

[@alphacause]

Is it really "impossible to find an emotionally stable man who can commit" or is it that many women have other criteria, in addition to emotional stability, that make it impossible for them to find a desirable man? For example, in surveys of what women prefer regarding height, most women will say they prefer a man who is 6 feet tall or taller. If you Google how many men are 6 feet or taller, it comes out to around 15 percent of the male population in the US. Right there, just off the bat, many women have excluded 85 percent of the male population. Then when you couple this rare physical standard with a lot of women's proclivity towards hypergamy (i.e. wanting men who make equal or more than they do) they have set the bar so high that few men can achieve it. Women have made the barrier to entry so onerous that they don't even get to meet men who would be loving husbands and fathers because they happen to be 5'9 and make an average salary.

[@Shikuesi]

of course their view is irrelevant, they're all millionaires

[@cypresse1620]

@@alphacause all I can say is: you can extend your criteria far and wide, men always find new ways to disappoint you. I am quite surprised by their ability in that. I dated guys whose salary is half of what I make, trust me, there is no difference. If they don’t like you, doesn’t matter what you have or how good you are: nothing will keep them around. Men have far more opportunities than women these days because urban areas are inundated with eligible women.

[@Elizabeth-jd3mn]

Perhaps the radical angry man hating feminists create those men

[@dulcamarabuffo]

My mother's generation was inculcated that success for a woman was marriage and family. My generation was inculcated with the " follow your dreams" mentality. Women are most marriageable when they are young, it is base biology. Now we are going to get old and live in an impoverished society unable to look after the aged. Either you struggle to raise children when you have the strength or you struggle with life in old age until you die.

[@joelfildes5544]

One of the pitfalls of ‘equality’…Women need careers too.

[@michellej1372]

There are women in their 30s on dating sites who put "undecided" when asked about children. I think some are honest and genuinely don't know but there are some who are worried it will scare men away. I think it's important not to just look at women but society at a whole and how it values and treats mothers and women who want children.

[@deniseg-hill1730]

The only continent where the birthrate is still very high is Africa.

[@es6544]

Because they have traditions to give birth to many kids

[@Shikuesi]

@@es6544 kind of a pointless tautological comment, but hey

[@williamkinkade2538]

Were DOOMED! -Arnold J. Rimmer

[@mariannepfly1906]

I have a career and 3 wonderful little mad children. I’m 39. 20s for fun and education I told myself and 30s for having and raising babies and hopefully being in a married or settled couple. I’m lucky it all worked out. I shudder at the thought that something might have happened to stop me having the three kids I have. I was lucky I met the man and dad I did. I always knew I wanted them and I was clear about that at 28/29 as I dated people. I’m also lucky I live in Germany now and there is soooo much money and support for women and families. My work and career has just got better and better since I had my first baby and it’s all down to high quality cheap healthcare and leave for me and lots of leave for my husband who wanted to take what was on offer. Happy, healthy adjusted kids and I thank Germany for what they make possible!!

[@Eltalstro]

Well bully for you.

[@quantentunnelable]

The beautiful tale of having a career, a beautiful man and having children and everything ! Often a hard waking up ...

[@johnmartin4650]

If luck plays a role , you’re doing something wrong !!!

[@nardforu131]

Answer is church.

[@herbayum76]

I tend not to share Shaws optimism...starting a family around 24 is hardly an option...who pays for the upbringing and how to acquire a house...goverments have to reset the mechanisms of capitalism thats the driver behind the ever increasing gap between the haves and havee nots..

[@RFXZ67966]

The UK population has increased 6 million in the last ten years. We dont need to be worried about falling birth rates

[@Shikuesi]

Increasing solely by immigration isn't a sustainable model, especially when birth rates are falling everywhere

[@RFXZ67966]

@@Shikuesi The UK has higher salaries and a better standard of living than the vast majority of the world's countries. For the foreseeable future, there will be pull factors for people to migrate to the UK

[@chrisdiboll2256]

Money is not the problem. The state can always create as much money as it wants. It’s resources that are the problem. We’ll see a situation where everyone has a six figure income with nothing to spend it on before the ‘money runs out’

[@julietkelly7215]

Never mind. The folk coming across the channel will fill the gaps. That's why its happening isn't it?

[@PawelK-z9u]

What about all the financial risks. When divorced men have to give away half of their wealth + have to pay alimony and wife support from his future earnings.

[@dogsenseforu301]

House and rental (being transient as rents increase) prices are way too high vs wages for young people to want to out down roots eg after tax wages are 50% rent and then childcare etc costs eg even after school starts kids have way shorter days, longer holidays, way less physical activity than necessary etc. IMO school should do work hours inc holidays and naps/sports/homework so kids are 'free'when at home.

[@wolfhugs2221]

Why would anyone want to inflict this world on an innocent child?

[@Siss2012]

For totally selfish reasons.

[@louiseparker1915]

So the old fashioned system of matchmaking may have to be resurrected.

[@bdott1538]

That would potentially help create partners….but not necessarily touch fertility rates.

[@kingshousetube]

A sham indeed Sir.

[@winstonjen5360]

Population growth is the ultimate scam.

[@HMASJervisBay]

Women have forgotten their purpose.

[@KateeAngel]

Our purpose is what we decide it to be. We are persons, not things, we don't have externaly assigned "purposes". Stop treating women as a hivemind, as things or as unpaid household labor force

[@HMASJervisBay]

@@KateeAngel 1. Reproduction: One of the most fundamental biological roles is the ability to conceive and bear children. The female reproductive system is designed for ovulation (the release of eggs), fertilisation, pregnancy, and childbirth. 2 Nurturing and Raising Offspring: Biologically, women are equipped to nurture children through breastfeeding, which provides essential nutrition and antibodies to newborns. The maternal bond, while also significantly influenced by social and psychological factors, has a biological basis for ensuring offspring's survival and well-being. 3 Genetic Diversity: In a broader evolutionary context, sexual reproduction (in which women are a vital part) contributes to genetic diversity within a population. This diversity is crucial for the survival and adaptation of species over generations. Finally, no man would ever talk to you if you didn't have your little patch of paradise. Grow up.

[@Siss2012]

What makes you think being talked to by you or the likes of you is a desirable turn of events? Delusional much?

[@bdott1538]

@@HMASJervisBaythat’s still not the purpose for women though.

[@HMASJervisBay]

@@bdott1538 Survival of the species is it full stop. The rest is nonsense. Get all washed up menopausal unbalanced shelias out of parliament and get back to a male-dominated society. If they didn't have a fanny, you wouldn't talk to them. And that's a fact. Now you tell me what it is?