Has feminism killed off chivalry? With Laura Dodsworth | SpectatorTV

Author Laura Dodsworth joins Kate Andrews to discuss whether chivalry is dead - and whether it's feminism that killed it off.
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[@ajs41]

The problem is a lot of men have tried being chivalrous and been insulted and ridiculed for doing so.

[@julianshepherd2038]

You are being patronising.

[@johnthedespicabledutchman7406]

Boom...!!! Nailed it 100%.

[@jamesburns2524]

True.

[@johnthedespicabledutchman7406]

@@julianshepherd2038 ''... a lot of men have tried being chivalrous ...'' I have been quite often called a Male chauvinist Pig, hense I have now completely stopped being chivalrous, so please tell me how am I been patronising?

[@johnvaleanbaily246]

@@julianshepherd2038 Patronising ?! When you allow a woman to precede you though a door and she calls you a 'fü¢king idiot' for doing so, I don't think so.

[@Cardifftoyboy1]

I am 70. I have lost count to the number of times I have stood to one side or held open a door for a lady only to have her sail through and not say a word of thanks or even smile. If I had a pound for every event I think I could actually have made a reasonable living out of this.

[@mikegray8776]

A conversation between two thoroughly entitled “strong independent” women, about how male consideration towards them was something that “offended” them in their twenties - which they now rather miss in their mid-life. ‘Live by the sword, die by the sword’ is the phrase that springs to mind. I still stand for women, AND open doors - always have - but the general societal decline in deference, is ENTIRELY down to women such as these. And by the way, the pretentious word you were searching for, Laura, is braggadocio !

[@johnrowell3583]

WTF?

[@beauregardrippey5508]

You mean braggadocix! Bigot! 🤣

[@George-vf7ss]

😂

[@nyxan07]

Entitled women? Having control over our lives and future is being entitled? Chivalry masked a lot of injustice back in the day.

[@mikegray8776]

@@nyxan07. No. Insisting aggressively on “equality” whilst demanding special sex-based deference is entitled.

[@richardwillford2418]

I've actually been sneered at for holding up a door to a woman. I almost found it interesting. Being kind to someone and getting sh*t in return is bizarre in the true sense of the word.

[@revolutionaryhamburger]

Last summer I was at Disney World with my grandson. We were sitting comfortably on one of the trams when several women came in the car. One was obviously pregnant, another was holding a child. They had baggage, looked tired but there were no seats. I looked at them, made eye contact. Then turned to my grandson and said loud enough for all to hear, "When I was your age we would stand up and give these women our seats. Those days are past, the patriarchy is dead. Women are equal." While I was still young I was taught chivalry and kindness for the female. I now know such misogynistic notions are considered in the current year to be 'toxic masculinity.' I have been conditioned over time to avoid such behavior, so now I teach the next generation the opposite of what I believe is right. For his own safety.

[@cyniciam]

“Reap what you sow ladies.” Sorry, scratch that one. “Reap what you sow.”

[@baronvonaux8294]

I have (literally) been abused for holding a door open for a random lady at a restaurant. She called me archaic. I think experiences like this are changing behaviours.

[@dr.dealgood2690]

I always find it funny that the people who demand respect are usually the last ones to show it.

[@Fanny_Snuffle]

Every man for himself now. I wouldn’t open a door for a woman these days because of the abuse.

[@michaelholycross2633]

You got what you wanted. Live with it.

[@nicholasprice8554]

Churchill's retort to Lady Astor's admonishment of his holding the door open for her applies here, namely 'Madam, I did so because I am a gentleman, rather than because you are a lady.' This is the way all chivalrous acts should be viewed, by both men and women.

[@therealmrfishpaste]

You can't have your cake and eat it ladies.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

LAURA: Last month I was travelling on a bus in York, when a thuggishly-built young Yorkshire WOMAN, decided to sit with her feet up on the seat opposite. Aged 71, and in very poor health, I politely asked her to place her feet on the floor: whereupon the young woman launched into a tirade against old people generally, including, "Hurry up and die!" Fortunately, one of my hosts, who was sharing the journey with me, decided he wanted to change seats, for the one her feet were upon. He duly sat down on her feet: whereupon all hell broke loose with accusations of him being a perv, and assaulting her. The driver stopped the bus and called the police. When I said, I hope you're not a prime example of Yorkshire youth, several girls protested that she wasn't! Whilst one family man told her, "I have a seven year old daughter at home: and if she turns into you, she's out!" When the young woman got off the bus, the entire bus cheered!

[@hellohellohellohellohello-h5l]

I wonder if women realize they aren't entitled to chivalry...

[@Jabberstax]

They don't want equal treatment, they want special treatment. This woman and his complaints are ridiculous.

[@wessexexplorer]

If someone refuses your offer of a seat then that’s fine, no insult should be taken. I suspect what is more off putting if that offer is seen as, and rejected as harassment or sexism.

[@mentansh5702]

Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions

[@katrionalaurenm]

That's what we tell the angry incel type men who whine about being lonely... Yes, unfortunately men now have to be linear it and treat women well or women just wont bother with these losers who have nothing to offer 😂, it's no Lo get enough to just be male and expect privileges based purely on that.

[@paulybassman7311]

Although I don't doubt that Laura has a good general attitude towards men in general, and I've always enjoyed any segment she has guested/presented. What must be considered is Womens overall attitude toward men these days, which I find in general is entitled and obtuse. This in turn pushes lots of Men (not all) into a generic disconnect into not caring ( like we used to) and ultimately sets up a vicious circle, of which it is difficult to break. I'm the same age as LD and I have observed this change. I've always been courteous and polite to everyone by default (unless provoked otherwise).... buuutttt I too have found that I extend courtesy less these days due to women's general behaviour. The only exception being when engaging with older ladies where they too are polite and courteous back (old fashioned - if you will) which gets a smile and makes you wish everybody was like that (shame really) . Which brings us back to .....wait for it...... Modern Feminism.

[@MrUpTheScore]

I’m 26 and this is exactly what I go through older woman the only ones who seem to appreciate the chivalry it’s super weird

[@ricardopsj]

Once I was in the subway with my two years old son in my arms, standing and holding to a post, a younger woman gave me her seat. Chivalry is not only for men.

[@eddenoy321]

Exactly. I have been on the receiving end of numerous acts of courtesy from both women and men. It is simply good manners and kindness.

[@johnmartin4650]

You women…..it has something to do with eating a cake .

[@lesliemurdoch76]

It must be about 25 years ago I was at a course and at lunch time we had to relocate to the canteen. I arrived first and held the door open only to be told by one of my female colleagues, a self identified feminist, that what I had done was sexist and not to repeat it. Now the truth of the matter was that as I was first to the door I considered it mannerly to hold the door open, no matter who was following and I told her as much. She wasn't impressed. A few days ago I was on a bus and a woman on a mobility scooter got on the bus. The driver did not wait for her to be seated before driving off. As a results she was having difficulty accessing one of the spring loaded bus seats and was in real danger of falling. I expected someone near her to get up and assist but nobody moved so I got up and helped her out for which she was very grateful. I think that nowadays, although feminists have to accept some of the blame, there is a general lack of manners in society. My wife is disabled and relies on parking spaces for blue badge holders. The number of people abusing the system is enormous and in my experience the worst offenders are younger people of both sexes.

[@davidfogarty2220]

Interesting point about the self-identified feminist. I imagine she'd be the first to call you a 'rude pig' for not holding the door open for her. You can't really win with people like these.

[@johnvaleanbaily246]

So, maybe you should talk to the sisterhood who sneer at man who are chivalrous.

[@petragiri2308]

I am, kind of, understanding of the man with the booked priority seat. He paid for it for a reason, he may have been more tired and had a longer day than LD. He had a suitcase, so possibly a long flight, no sleep but it matters not. Maybe he had some things in his bag that he needed to keep in full view all the time (because he paid for a place for them next to him). And LD's shock is more a sign of her sense of entitlement, than realistic of travellers on a hot tube train in London. For that journey it was HIS seat as he had paid for it, again for a reason. Unreal expectations are a common source of pain. Being in London, is also not like being anywhere else. And wearing heels is a choice of the wearers, so other people should not be expected to treat you with special sympathy.

[@danielvandervort]

As a Brit what I run into is ..." I can do it !"... I don't need your help!"..." I'm not a child "....so I'm tired of being humiliated and basically yelled at...many men just give up. Sit on the floor.

[@gillycooper8717]

I think both these women are missing the point. My parents taught ALL their children, male & female, to give up their seats to older or less able people. Good manners should not be limited to men! Feminism is definitely to blame, but so is the lack of good manners that's prevalent now.

[@markdolan8866]

Well I would have surrendered the seat because I’m a kind human being not because she’s female….. There does seem to be an enormous sense of entitlement on display here.

[@katrionalaurenm]

Yes exactly, most decent people think this way, including women. Most women would give their seat to someone who appeared to need it more, male or female. Seems like some people just want to create division and hostility by focusing on the rudest, most entitled sample of the population and claiming that this somehow represents feminism. So ridiculous. Most feminists appreciate polite, kind men.

[@wessexexplorer]

I’m sick of people using bags to avoid the general public on public transport. You don’t like the general public? Then use private transport.

[@roc7880]

u only need instance of seeing a man canceled for opening the door to a woman, and you will never do this again.

[@George-vf7ss]

Perhaps the gentleman when faced with the prospect of exchanging old bags, chose the lighter quieter one?

[@alphacause]

LOL! Nice one.

[@katrionalaurenm]

It's funny how emotional you old men get when you realise how useless you truly are to women 😂

[@david8157]

The sexes should be treated differently. They are different. The notion they shouldn't was and is a postmodern distortion that has lead directly to absurdities such as gender ideology and male sex offenders being placed in female prisons. Whether you get offered a seat on a tram is a very minor issue compared to female prisoners having to pretend a male sex offender in their prison is a woman. The female prisoners are punished by the prison authorities if they object or complain. The situation is way beyond chivalry and tram seats.

[@ahdkw]

They are different but what is the physical difference that would make men more able to stand instead of sit or open doors. As long as one is not elderly or disabled?

[@katrionalaurenm]

💯

[@katrionalaurenm]

It's not about being unable to open a door, it's about the gesture and what that indicates about the man. I think most sane men who don't hate women make gestures such as these to indicate that they are being considerate of someone physically weaker, so are likely not a threat, which is appreciated and helps women feel safer. It's not about actually being unable to open a door ourselves, it's about the gesture and what that conveys. Most women feel quite unsafe around unfamiliar men because they are physically stronger and often perpetrate violence, sad but true. Being overtly considerate/polite or 'chivalrous' is a way for a man to convey that he is being careful to not be aggressive/rough around a woman. Most women appreciate this, despite being able to open a door just fine. Most women hold doors for people too, it's just basic manners I would have thought.

[@david8157]

@@ahdkw The yobbo in question would not even give up the seat occupied by his suitcase

[@heyarnold7256]

Answer: Yes. Expertly so.

[@FindThisArtist]

I've been dragged up right. Chivalry is just a man acting properly.

[@dhickey5919]

I offered to help move a table with someone I knew in a bookstore, and she spit back at me, "I don't need no man! I'm a strong and independent woman!" I'm not even a stranger for God's sake. Then there's the many, many times women let the door slam in my face while hurriedly darting through themselves. I guess if you want to complain try complaining to a feminist who took delight turning us against one another.

[@michaeltunnicliffe4935]

Short answer yes. Long answer of course.

[@avallons8815]

Chivalry had a cost. I am inclined to agree with feminists that it was a high cost. If it is to return, what will women do in return ? I ask because where I live is quite a polite place. If I hold open a door or give way while driving, I am often thanked. You'd expect no less. But there is a split. More than 95% of men acknowledge. Less than 30% of women. At least here, women are casually at least rude; one can speculate many may also be entitled. I do not remember this being the case 30 years ago, but the world changes.

[@SeanChristieMallon]

Yes it has

[@varmastiko2908]

Feminism didn't kill chivalry - chivalry IS feminism.

[@mrkprstn88]

So, shes been offered a seat and declined, but now is indignant that they no longer give up a seat.? 🤣

[@amritawhitman8112]

I just read her article and I couldn't agree more with her, but OMG I'm reading the comments by both men and women on her LinkedIn - yikes! I'm old enough to remember the feminist movement of the 70s, so I know what Laura is talking about and even then it was obvious that we in Western societies were going from one extreme to the other while completely misinterpreting what Chivalry means: kindness, consideration and respect! Thank you Laura!

[@scanspeak00]

"A woman can do anything a man can do, and do it better, and in heels" - Barack Obama.

[@BFNH459]

Yep, and she can stand on public transport like everyone else in whether footwear she chooses

[@ProjectHyena]

What? Did Obama really said that? 😂😂😂

[@homosexualbiologicalmale--3]

" community and freedom is the opposite of each other , homosexual biological male "

[@manmaje3596]

I’m a homosexual biological male.

[@homosexualbiologicalmale--3]

@@manmaje3596 hug brothers but also i need homosexuals biological males created with my dna also to make sure i exit from the universe functionality without being drawn back and to easily exit , easyness mean my name homo , i keep a litle bit what we call community for the homosexuals biological males only and only temporarly to reject easily the universe functionality , sorry i dont like diversity , nature etc , i like only biological males to maje my sluts for pleasure and homosexuality , i dont say the word bonding because the the homosexuality has anything it needs in it , there is no need for community as homosexuality has what it need in it , also homosexuality to combat the nature had integrated self caressing without touching other males and stil can be called homosexuality which can transform in " self homosexuality " and when i say homosexuality it mean biological males only , are biological males energy has been taken over by masculinity and biological femaleness and the ones which support biological females .....i dont want to take them over , i only want to go separate to create homosexual biological male specific pleasurable universe created with quarks atoms or other energy as we start to know how to do it through technology and other ways

[@williammillard687]

Am and always will be 'chivelrous' despite the sexism of The Family Courts who are happy to stand by encouraging and allowing proven assault against me. I now spend or speak to my child very little, my child having been indoctrinated and alienated by her mother against me...hey ho..my son will doubtless not be chivelrous....why even bother? He lost his relative too..

[@EuphoricPower-fy9nv]

I came up behind two women while on my bike on the cycle path. Rather than go past them and give them the fright of their lives, I quietly said “excuse me ladies”. They looked at me as if I’d said “move bitches and get your tits oot for the lads”. So apparently saying “ladies” now is not allowed.

[@katrionalaurenm]

It's bizarre how you've invented their reasoning and assumed their thoughts. It's irrational to attribute intentions like that based on nothing. Perhaps you'd benefit from psychological help to figure out why you got so emotional about a trivial encounter with strangers who happen to be women. Weird.

[@sittinandthinkin]

To be met with a dirty look or outright hostility after a spoken courtesy is what's irrational you horrible person.

[@peterbrooks1781]

​@@katrionalaurenmNot as weird as making inferences about what other people are thinking while criticising them for literally the same thing

[@keifer7813]

It's because you were ugly, trust me they wouldn't look at you like that if you were some attractive guy

[@kevenmosley3423]

Why is this gender specific...for sure...just good manners for ALL to adopt. And yes, humans know right from wrong in their hearts

[@JoeGoldJr]

She's mad that a man didn't want to give up a seat he paid for? The entitlement and misandry here is over the top. Sick!

[@keifer7813]

I might've bought that man a beer, and I don't even drink!

[@jasoncornell1579]

The code of chivalry was the rules of war battlefield conduct not how to act generally and yes a hypocritical system of strong who don't need no man whilst expecting men to fulfil traditional roles certainly hasn't helped

[@beauregardrippey5508]

One simple word answer. Yes.

[@lucyh4355]

Well, firstly if you're going to talk about the chivalric code, please learn what it actually means. You appear to be speaking about simple manners & how we interact with each other. There's an easy way to bring it back - treat others with respect & don't demonise them. Secondly, I'm not a fan of how the concept of karma has been twisted but in this situation it's apt. If you're polite, friendly & have empathy for others, you'll find yourself being given the same in return. I've read all the comments at this time & the response does not surprise me as this whole discussion sounds self-indulgent & more suitable for an article in Cosmopolitan. Did you ever consider the needs of the gentlemen on the tube before you turned him into a caricature? Not very chivalrous, ladies.

[@petermanning3811]

You are behind the times - consider Mr Darcy's regret.

[@h0tsex0r]

Confirmed

[@tonysherwood9619]

The spice girls did!

[@marjoriesherrington2772]

Yes it has - but that was obvious from the beginning and the women wanted it - and still do!

[@johnmartin4650]

Feminism did it.

[@scanspeak00]

If a future Titanic sinks, good luck.

[@carad2008]

This incident could just as easily have happened 40 years ago or perhaps since time began. The man probably had no other place to put his luggage. Tough shit. On the Tube it's dog eat dog. I remember a slightly younger girl, from South Africa, coming in to our office traumatised by her journey into work that morning on the Tube which was so crowded that a pervert managed to jerk off next to her as they stood. It was on her clothes when she got off the train!!!!! In the nineties we didn't have much understanding or sympathy for victims of sexual assault. I had no idea what to do to help her.

[@madscientist649]

Theres a missing class dimension to this discussion.

[@Mysterx1440]

This is hilarious 😅

[@MrTom2489]

He was ignorant and selfish.Most real men would offer their seat to a lady out of kindness.

[@manmaje3596]

He paid for it.

[@keifer7813]

🤮

[@chrisdiboll2256]

My take on chivalry is that it sets a high baseline standard for how you treat women. If your default is that you open doors and give up your seat, then in your weaker moments maybe you fail to do that and you feel bad. If your baseline is that you do none of those things and you treat women with no special respect, then your weaker moments might include something much worse.

[@katrionalaurenm]

I agree, I think most sane men who don't hate women make gestures such as these to indicate that they are being considerate of someone physically weaker, so are likely not a threat, which is appreciated and helps women feel safer. It's not about actually being unable to open a door ourselves, it's anoutbrhe gesture and what that conveys. I like the way you articulated your thoughts, thanks for sharing that. Sadly the angry incel types seem to do these things expecting a specific response whic is probably why women are uncomfortable around them in the first place. Most women appreciate men who are considerate in this way. (Similarly, as a woman I hold doors for people, and help people carrry things if they are elderly or weaker, including men.)

[@manmaje3596]

Why do they deserve special respect?

[@keifer7813]

You know my version of chivalry? Actively avoiding sitting next to women on the bus or train unless I have no option to. There. Take it or leave it

[@whyzup6593]

Comments are carefully screened here...which makes this "code" irrelevant

[@julianshepherd2038]

Chivalry was at the behest of the bloke and was hit and miss at best. It failed women.

[@curiositycloset2359]

Lol by 2038 you'll be being dragged through the street, this way and that. And no one's going to help you. Enjoy, perhaps you will?

[@sellingacoerwa8318]

Oh please Spectator... this is just embarrassing

[@samanthaclugston6685]

I'm a53 year old woman and anytime I see someone struggling and there isn't a spear seat but a man or older children taking space ,I have no trouble telling them to move or give up my own seat

[@lucymarshall5854]

Get out of London

[@MichaelE.Douroux]

Only for those women who don't appreciate it.

[@andyem01234]

What a crock

[@chrisnicholls1112]

😂😂😂😂

[@thenightdrivingavenger2200]

yeah time to unsubscribe, if i wanted to watch The View, id watch The View.

[@RaymondScott-q3c]

I think it's an encouragement of the breakdown of our culture,through nefarious groups not only about this but on a whole Range of other things,ie talking to each other more,even small talk doesn't matter,this is at least a little move but even if ignored that person it plant's a seed that gives hope that they think that was nice 😉