Mythbusting copper bullets - Fieldtester episode 1

It's the first episode of our new monthly Fieldtester kit series, which comes with a whole Fieldtester section of the website devoted to shooting/hunting kit reviews. Visit Fcha.nl/fieldte...
In this film, Andrew Venables from WMS Firearms Training www.wmsfirearms... Tim Pilbeam conduct the most comprehensive test of copper bullets they can, with as many rounds as they can lay their hands on, from manufacturers including Hornady, Lapua and RWS. Plus Jason Doyle shows how to give boots the test they need before you commit to buying them. We have gun horror stories from gunshop owner Marcus SImpson of SImpson Brothers in Cambridgeshire and Staffordshire gunshop owner Paul Hodson of Target Sports UK reveals which clay gun you can buy for under £500.
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Copper
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Boots
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Exploding guns
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Best clay gun for under £500
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[@MortenSchultzHunting]

I live in Denmark. It's still legal to use and hunt with lead rifle projectiles, but I only use lead ammunition for training or vermin control. For deer I have used hornady GMX in both .223rem and .308win for several years now, works fine. One important thing is speed, and stability. A copper bullet is 20-30% longer than a lead bullet, in the same weight and caliber. If you use to shoot a 165-180gr. Lead bullet, you might have to choose a 140-150gr. Copper bullet to get the stability and terminal ballistic performance. Thanks for a great show.

[@5000rgb]

I haven't personally verified it but it seems like the copper bullets hold together better than lead so a lighter bullet isn't lighter once it starts doing its job. Because copper bullets seem to need a little more velocity to expand maybe the lighter bullet is advantageous. I'm pretty disappointed in the selection here in California where non-lead is required for hunting. It seems like the stores stock a much wider selection of lead than non lead, even in hunting calibers like .270.

[@calangel]

Copper seems to penetrate deeper than lead core bullets, even when they are lighter due to the nearly perfect weight retention.

[@derekmaestas8949]

Do you have a WhatsApp? Or a google hangouts? I’d really like to pick your brain about my experience with these solid copper rounds.

[@ChiquitaSpeaks]

Wonder what the fact of a steel ballistic tip would have on the expanding characteristics of these

[@robert91rs]

Watching this from Texas and damn impressed with the content neighbors! Y'all keep up the good work, you should be proud.

[@jromo93]

Same here I'm impressed!

[@BcFuTw9jt]

Interesting video and discussion. Complete opposite of our bullet discussions here in central Wyoming, as far as weight and distances go. But still very well put together

[@HerrGesetz]

A scientist here in NZ did a study on the effects of lead contamination in game meat,, she used kiwi hunters and families that eat a lot of game meat in her tests and it was alarming! One guy who was eating almost nothing but game was really contaminated. She highlighted a big difference between adults eating a reasonable amount of game meat and children eating the same. Shot with traditional bullets, adults could get away with a bit of lead but, children eating the same could not. She found that, even if you try not to eat anything within 4 to 6 inches of the shot damage there is still contamination. It certainly changed my mind.

[@jasonshults368]

That wasn't science. That was excrement. I wish people knew chemistry. Then they wouldn't be so gullible about things like this.

[@jgordon5408]

Yeah....now if only we could just get rid of all the lead in the clay around here. There is more natural lead here then any hunter could put in the environment.

[@bitchimawesomeful]

Not disagreeing but it is more the scavengers eating a lot of carcasses that have been shot and have pieces of lead in them, leading to lead poisoning

[@squirrelhunter1300]

@@bitchimawesomeful i never shot a deer a leave a carcass i leave the guts you sound like a sport hunter

[@bitchimawesomeful]

@@squirrelhunter1300 that doesn't even make sense? Unless you're shooting your deer over a corn feeder how you going to drag a deer 5 miles huh? What does that even have to do with leaving lead fragments for scavengers to consume leading to lead poisoning? I'm talking about out west where we actually hunt rather than sit in a heated blind and shoot the first thing to walk up to the bait and then go load it into the truck. Ever heard of actual hunting where you quarter an animal cause you have to pack it out on your back?

[@rockie307]

I seen a x ray of a rifle round wound. Lead fragments scattered feet away from the impact. No more lead bullets for my game I've been using barnes ttsx for 6 years with better results and blood trail. Don't have to wonder am I poisoning my kids or wildlife. Yeah I spend a few more dollars a year on ammo but its worth it.

[@KTMsoldier1988]

@@rockie307 shot an 8 point whitetail several years ago with a ttsx out of a 300 win mag right behind the front shoulder. Blood trail was horrible and the deer ran 500 yds before it expired. Not very ethical bullets.

[@EdAb]

The copper debate in North America (I'm in Alberta, Canada) mostly revolves around "low" velocity expansion. Almost everyone here (at least amongst those with a some knowledge and experience) freely admit that copper loads can be both accurate and devastatingly effective. The main objections almost always come from hunters who experience impact velocities that are lower than 2200-2300 fps. You somewhat address this issue by saying at 16:42, "it'll all work, it's a case of how quickly". This is true, but simply working is not enough. A pointed stick will work too. Having to follow a weak blood trail for miles, to find your half dead animal will work, but it's far from ideal. And if you can prevent such an outcome in advance, by choosing a different bullet, I'd argue that the, "it'll all work" attitude is actually unethical. You did show some some lovely expansion from a 300 Win Mag... But that was a Win Mag! Please don't get me wrong, copper bullets can be spectacular, if driven fast enough... But this video is implying that copper bullets, from medium sized cartridges, impacting at 250 meters, will work wonderfully and I for one don't think that such a blanket statements should be made.

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

Barnes LRX will expand well below 2200 FPS. Closer to 1800 FPS.

[@EdAb]

@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 You are correct. Perhaps, what I didn't make clear is that "will expand" and fully expand are two, very different things. Barnes claims that LRX bullets will expand down to 1500 fps, but if we're honest, that expansion is only about the diameter of the shank. To get full expansion (over 2x the shank diameter) the bullet needs an impact velocity of around 2200 fps (other factors, like caliber diameter and twist rate also impact expansion). Cheers

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

@@EdAb From what I’ve seen, 1500 is the floor, but 1800 will still get you larger than caliber. Not the magic 1.5 like everyone likes, but still an effective bullet if you put it where it needs to go.

[@EC-mc7vg]

The only question needing asked is why do we need, or want for that matter, politicians telling us what kind of ammunition we can use. Stop voting for socialist tyrants wherever you are in the world. Haven't they made is perfectly clear the greatly desire to ban ammo, ban magazines and eventually ban all firearms??? Wake up, voting in tyrant politicians is why this is happening.

[@porkchopspapi5757]

Preaching to the choir.

[@RetrieverTrainingAlone]

I've been hand loading and hunting with monolithic bullets like the Barnes TTSX for a dozen years up here in Alaska. I like the penetration, exit holes and terminal performance. For smaller game like Dall Sheep, Black Bear and Caribou, I use 130 gr TTSX with 4350 in .270 Win. For large game like grizzly bear and bull moose I use 180 gr TTSX or Nozler E-Tip with 4831 in .300 H & H Magnum.

[@georgeapostolopoulos2374]

300 H&H is a sweet caliber and a classic no one chambers for it hardly anymore

[@marksanford3907]

Been shooting and loading the TTSX and TSX for years. Never lost an animal in 30+ years… one and done! They have my full confidence with any animal I pursue… Barnes makes outstanding bullets!

[@Dcm193]

@@marksanford3907 unless you hunt at longer distances

[@jamiehurtt3530]

​@@Dcm193 Ttsx are great at reasonable distances but aren't worth a whore's ass at long range when velocity drops from below 2000 fps or you gotta hit shoulder bone to initiate expansion ..i use nosler ABLR for distance

[@mortenjrgensen5497]

Funny to see the problems with Hornady. I have used copper the last years in my 243 win and 270 win. In my rifles Hornady was very good the first 10-15 shoots after this they where going all over. After cleaning the rifles with solvent etc they where ok aigen for the same 10-15 shoots. After this I got some Barnes TSX in both cal and I have never had a problem they work fine.

[@Calqid]

Solid information, thank you from Alaska but “…the UK has more species than any other country” piqued my interest because I’ve taken four species just in Alaska, and Rocky Mountain mule and whitetail, and lived around many thousands of whatever whitetail, fallow, and axis deer in Texas. You’ve actually got as many species as one of a number of game farms in the US. Good day!

[@robertjackson1407]

Thank you 😊

[@redneckprecision8997]

Cutting-edge bullets are best. Review and you will be astonished. Check out Maximus line.

[@msa4548]

I still shoot primarily lead core bullets, they're cheaper and easier to come by for targets. But I've changed to copper for meat hunting.

[@Nathan_King]

Great video, thank you for showing the expansion results. I'm another USA viewer, and it's always good to get a peak into other cultures, especially when it comes to hunters. All those suppressors.. I guess we have our own legal advantages, but wow are we jealous of your availability of suppressors!

[@jeramyh9344]

Hornady 80gr GMX will group three rounds almost touching at 100 yard out of my Savage 11 .243. I can't get MOA accuracy out of the 100gr lead bullet.

[@therickpound]

One of your best shows for being straight talking & straight to the point on a subject we know could possibly be a milestone in recreational hunting in the UK, this kind of work does keep us on the curve, hopefully ahead of the imminent legislation, good to see & good for shooting.

[@Rico11b]

Which of the copper bullets was the softest? Did one model consistently expand and mushroom greater than the others?

[@dave_724]

Two of my favourite rifle testers in one place could we have more collaborations like this

[@johnmclean8543]

Another great program by the Fieldsports team, really enjoyed It looking forward to next month.👍

[@bekkerbosbeer3453]

Would be great if you did same testing in different countries,eg here in South Africa

[@CP-jt6bw]

The groups would be even better with a target cross

[@longrangehuntinggroup7223]

Shooting into a tank full of water doesn't actually translate into actual terminal performance. There's a major difference in impact resistance between that and a animal. If you don't know a subject you shouldn't do a educational video on it. Bullet construction and terminal ballistics is one of the most misunderstood parts of hunting and ridiculous videos like this only spreads more bad information.

[@BlueDart1971]

Great content and love that everything is suppressed. You can get them here in the U.S. but heavily regulated.

[@Saw_Squatch]

Lol they're VERY regulated there too

[@kylerokitjanski7598]

Illegal in Canada, because only criminals use them apparently...as if that stops them from getting them 😑

[@Agri-WMH]

bcperry15 not really, send a form to the police with your license, they approve and you just go into a gun shop and buy one, no insane price tag too

[@Saw_Squatch]

@@Agri-WMH yeah I suppose, but I more so ment your access to that license is heavily regulated

[@exothermal.sprocket]

USA "heavily regulated" means you get to throw a pile of extortion money at an anti-Constitutional government bureaucracy over a anti-Constitutional law, and by so doing, end up funding the very thugs that have zero intention of releasing such human rights restrictions and penalties. Besides the money, you give away your fingerprint data, have your background investigated by another bureaucracy, you wait a good 6 months (everybody jumped up and down when that came down from 12 months), and then you can have your barrel muffler.

[@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind]

All of that expansion "data" it is not an accurate representation of how those projectiles will perform in soft tissue. Water is not an acceptable medium to us to test terminal performance of rifle projectiles. It is substantially rougher on projectiles, and causes more deformation/expansion. Of course the results vary based on the individual projectiles, but anyone concerned with how each of those projectiles perform should try to find tests done with ballistics gel or meat as the testing medium

[@Tinman3187]

People have had difficulty testing bullets like these in gel because the opening at the tip is too small to allow some gels to flow in properly. You need a moist target for them to open and tissue has plenty of water in it. I have seen tests with gel where the testers put water in the tip of the bullet to solve this problem but as you said that's probably not very accurate either. If you want tests in tissue with these bullets they are out there and these projectiles do actually expand on the real thing just fine even at fairly low velocities.

[@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind]

@@Tinman3187 The gel isn't supposed to "flow", it is supposed to (and does) behave similar to soft tissue on impact

[@Tinman3187]

@@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind Ballistics gel does not act like tissue. It is a test medium meant for comparison by offering a consistent target of similar density to tissue. That is all. It does not have the same elasticity, consistency or physical properties of tissue. It is used because you can make one gel block exactly the same as another so that multiple rounds can be compared on even ground. Lucky gunner and Federal Cartridge made a video in which they mentioned this. Also you can easily put your hand through ballistics gel and there is no free water or blood in it unlike a living body.

[@heraclitus6100]

@@Tinman3187 correct!

[@HikeHuntHaul]

Great video! I shoot Hornady 165 grain gmx out of my 300 win mag and love its ability to kill at terminal ranges. Great video for those that shoot copper. I personally would stick with a partition or bonded bullet for energy dump and penetration for game. I like the velocity of gmx bullets and the penetration with terminal distances. This video is awesome. Thanks for making.

[@AustrianJager]

I have used cooper and brass bullets for 12 years now. Have shot 600 animals from 8kg roe-deer cub to 850 kg Eland. From 6,5mm up to .416. The results are just perfect! Thank you guys for this fantastic video!

[@Calqid]

You’ve killed an animal a week for twelve years, wow! I can’t afford your ammo, let alone your airfare!

[@AustrianJager]

@@Calqid no. Some times in autum more, some time in winter less then that.

[@sisleymichael]

Boots? Thorogood boots from the USA. Why? They break in immediately. Also, USA made, not China. Next, they are manufactured to be resoled and made new again, if you have a good cobbler.

[@canuckmagnum5841]

"50-120 meters, which is called hunting", truer words never spoken, those 600 m+ "long range" people are just unethical... cheers from Canada!

[@adame270]

I started handoading barnes ttsx in 308, 30-06, and 6.5 Grendel and the deer drop in their tracks. My 308 was shooting about 3/8" groups at 100 yards. Minus the fouler shot.

[@ruralpestcontrol]

interesting stuff

[@fmiller5704]

I'd like to know more about the differences between a European say a Browning and some of the Turkish guns

[@edwardsaxon7007]

Couldn't help but notice Steve Hillage, Green as the theam music.

[@pseudopetrus]

My limited experience of copper bullets has been favorable. I will continue to experiment as more copper bullets become available here in Canada.

[@FFFOutdoor]

I have been using monolithic bullets in South Africa since 2006 and love them in all my plains game rifles except my 222 Rem that I use as a calling rifle for jackal and caracal. The 50gr Vmax is then the choice of bullet to load.

[@Afro408]

Thank you all!! Very good info there and it appears that Barnes are still ahead of the game, when it comes to mono metal projectiles. 👍😁

[@JamesJones-cx5pk]

For deer, I go the exact opposite. Ive shot Hornady SST'S for 20 years which blow up quick. They are good from 0-400 in my .308. They rarely exit but the internal damage is instantaneous and brutal.

[@smartypants5036]

Copper bullets were insisted on as an attempt to close shooting down, you can argue it any way you like but that is what most greenies were up to, attack the amunition. They have been bummed out because copper works just fine when you use the correct bullet for the job. Weight retention is better than lead and the petals that open up do outstanding damage internally.

[@jonkirby1880]

Man, a lot of us just just want y'all to not eat as much lead

[@horseguy1230]

Nice conspiracy theory..

[@smartypants5036]

@@horseguy1230 Not a theory. Happened in New Zealand that way with shot gun shot ammo years before what got passed in California. Totally driven to stop duck hunting by the greens.

[@southerntriplej8061]

@@jonkirby1880 why do you care what another man uses to kill meat with? He's not making you eat at his table! Why don't you just worry about You and let others live there own life. Another words, Mind your own fuggin business!

[@gabek1381]

@@southerntriplej8061 Some studies suggest that what you use to hunt with has environmental impacts that don't *just* harm you. Food for thought.

[@tS-sn7jt]

How’s about barrel ware with cooper bullets?. No one seems to be addressing this will cooper bullets shorten your barrel life?

[@darrengreen418]

Yes lamber is a good shotgun but the company went under 7 years ago and its hard to get parts for that shotgun now.so keep away from it only if you no a gun smith who can make parts for that shotgun

[@timothyprice9064]

Once again, most guns and ammo shoot better than the people pulling the trigger. Guns and ammo are tools, get the right tools for the job.

[@chadsmith2281]

So should I start stacking copper too? Gold, silver copper 🙏🤙💪

[@chrismarfia9917]

certainly a well done video. the only point of criticism is the test media. water causes high resistance and causes maximum upset for bullets. animals don't provide that much resistance - especially in the rib cage. many of the bullets showed a noticeable reduction in frontal diameter going from 100m to 250m. this shows monos need lots of velocity and resistance to maximize their performance. lightweight bullets for a given caliber shed velocity and momentum quicker.

[@Manbunmen65]

There's one thing in common. American cartridges American power.

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

Nice first episode. Excellent piece on lead free ammo. I've been wanting to try this myself, though I will be homeloading. As others have asked, 22rf lead free? What's available and how does it perform in the field. Notes a typo in the url for WMS Firearms Training in the description.

[@stephenferguson6363]

I was shooting the hornady 270 eldx out of my 338 edge but found them a little explosive and sine this rifle is now my sub 700 yards elk rifle i switched to the 280 grain barnes lrx super accurate 3/8th inch or better groups at 100 at 200 yards group are still in the 5/8ths inch typically i use copper bullets as long as min impact vel is a min of 1900 fps and aim to smash bone plus i live smack dab in the middle of grizzly territory

[@colinjohnston5465]

Thanks very much for this film. I found the copper bullet very interesting and have tried equivalent rounds in 308 but not 243. I made the mistake of keeping identical weight of bullet in 308 and not going down in weight and up in speed. What the test appears to show is (and I may be wrong) that if I have mixed arable and wooded ground I can expect to shoot at distances from 75m to 270m, I may need to carry different rounds. With all the zeroing issues that entails meaning I have to decline certain opportunities depending on the ammunition I selected before going out that day. Is that correct? Currently, I have 2 go to lead rounds In 243 and 308. Norma 243, 100gr fits the bill at all ranges I am competent to a shot at. In 308, Federal 150gr does the job perfectly again across my competence spectrum. Do any of the straight out the box 80/85gr 243 rounds and 110/123/130gr 308 rounds offer that? That's all I need to know. I really appreciate the efforts that team went to bring this Fieldtester episode to us.

[@jmkhenka]

150 GMX in 308 works from 0-250 meters. Either factory loaded in the supperformance or atleast with 2800 FPS/850mps at nossle. I load myself and im at around 880mps v0 with 150 gmx or TTSX. It wont perform worse then a 243 at 100 meters, thats more varmint then 308 will ever be.

[@jmkhenka]

Additional, shot placement IS IMPORTAINT. From the side shot through lungs/heart will not be problematic. There wont be much meat loss at any range. Take a rib or bone? then it might blow up more at sub 75 meters

[@Fisherhunt56]

I suggest a 1/2" white dot in center..reduces judgement of centre.

[@intellectualiconoclasm3264]

As an American debating using copper solids I can't wait to dig into the data you've so kindly compiled. This will be helpful to bunches of us over here. Thanks Gents.

[@AM-hf9kk]

Do it, you won't regret it. I've taken Elk using Winchester Dear Season Copper Impact XP 150 gr and Nosler E-Tip 168 gr in my .30-06 from 150-400 yd. I got excellent accuracy and expansion from both.

[@mtnmikewalters7185]

You made a comment about lead one question you dig it out of the ground why is it bad to put it back in

[@MingkGoat]

damn i wish the USA had sensible suppressor laws like they do in the UK you guys can keep your gun laws, but the suppressor ones are spot on

[@ryanehlis426]

In western US shooting game at 500 yards or more is not uncommon

[@sweenie58]

I agree with your basic idea that copper bullets do expand. I also use TTSX. Years ago I read an article saying that plastic tipped bullets were made to stop deer in their tracks and prevent them from running off into nasty thorny bushes in Texas. I've noticed the expansion of tipped bullets is so great within 150 yds with a win 270 that the shoulder on the side of impact can't be used as human food. The expanding bullet dumps energy too quickly. In a morning hunt, I only use tipped bullets when the animal is about 250 yds or greater ( less energy dump) If it's a short distance I like to use soft lead tips here in Alberta Canada. They dump their energy further into the chest. they may wander a few yds but you can see them. The exception to the rule? Hunting deer at shorter distances at dusk (greater risk of not finding them with soft lead).

[@MtnBadger]

I understand the arguments for the other rifles but, I'm a loooong time (50yrs) Browning fan, as was my father, both of us military, because the level of quality, accuracy and durability and availability most anywhere in the world... Is really tough to beat for the price. As far as accuracy goes with copper projectiles vs. lead, the consistency in density, fragmentation, defection during flight, etc., etc... Copper is a far more predictable composition and stable material than lead, which can vary quite a bit in the same lot, so will logically be more accurate. I get all the arguments for lead-free ammo, first there's the ecological issues with lead pellets accumulated over years in lakes and ponds from bird hunting, covering the land in shooting fields, etc., sure. I'm in full understanding, EXCEPT this bit about "lead free meat." The only part of the meat which is going to be affected by the lead is going to be too damaged by the shock of the bullet's energy to eat, anyway. An animal may die from "lead poisoning of the heart" *evil grin* but it's not like there will be lead toxicity circulating through the deer, people. Sheesh. Game birds taken with bird shot, I've spit out my share of tiny lead pellets in my life, yeah. lol. But, I'm not swallowing it and it isn't remaining in the game in residual levels to bother anyone, not in the quantities one would eat in a life time. Not like picking lead-based paint off the sill and eating it for a few formative, childhood years, now is it? :)

[@fieldsportstv]

Thanks for this. The anti-lead lobby points to research in Germany which shows contamination of the carcase from micro lead particles of - from memory - up to 45cm (18in). Like you, I would like to see a comparison between lead from shooting and lead that's already in the environment. / Charlie

[@MtnBadger]

@@fieldsportstv Yes, there can be lead in the environment, some of which is naturally occurring, especially in areas where it exists abundantly enough to have mining activities, plus from shooting. And not just for sport. There are civil war battleground areas in the southeastern US where there was a looot of raw cast lead pouring out over those years. But, as far as game contamination, I'd be only concerned with the area of impact, which is usually wrecked,, anyway. And just how much game meat are* you eating? Plus there are plenty of fully jacketed rounds available which helps limit the amount of "lead spread" within an animal. Or an area. I think *and this is purely my opinion* that the biggest concern would be with areas of prolonged hunting and shooting, particularly with inland waterways, where fish and food chain issues are the most vulnerable. I don't know how much shooting happens over farm lands there, where it's possible to contaminate food stuffs... But, again, unless you're taking battleground level stuff, I wouldn't be pushing the panic button on this, just yet. And the US sees far more population shooting than across the pond. Just look at reasonable and responsible remedies for reducing lead ammo. But that's me...

[@giggergigger1]

Great show but 3 years later we have fewer non lead alternatives!

[@playanamedgus2415]

Lead for waterfoul is one thing, because the lead is getting in the water and contaminating it. But if you are just big game huntng, I don't see the harm in in using a lead round. The lead goes right back into the ground. And for the people who say that is bad, well thats exactly where the lead came from in the first place, so it can't be all that bad, now can it?

[@jasonshults368]

Lead doesn't contaminate water. Lead has been used as potable water piping for over two millennia. That's why it's called "plumbing", from "plumbum", the Latin name for lead.

[@LambeausFolks]

Wish I could understand the Kings english.

[@smartypants5036]

I have a 300 ACC Blackout. I use copper bullets in Supersonic and Subsonic and they work very well. These bullets are made just for that weapon and the speeds that it is capable off. That is the key.

[@user-iz7zy7rx9t]

So for 30-06 a 165gr is preferable to a 180?

[@makisarg]

Desde campana Buenos Aires Aires Argentina ... hermosos videos muy educativos.. gracias y salut..!!!

[@pakieffer49]

Just proves...hunters are a universal breed. Great presentation. Thank you, from Northern California, and am a major hunting/fishing retailer employee.

[@robertstewart1464]

When will you start to test non lead small bore ammunition? You know damn well once we are forced onto non lead for shotgun and deer hunting rifles that the small bore and air rifle shooter will be next on the list that the anti's will be going after because we use lead. I cannot see for the life of me how you could make a copper .22lr bullet affordable and useable

[@jmkhenka]

Why dont you buy a box of 22 copper from CCI and try it out? Issues is weight. In sweden we have minimum weight and impact energy requirements for diffrent klasses of game. I really hope sweden looks at finland and how they added lead free bullets, but with less weight requirements. If they force us to still have the 140 grain 2700 J @ 100 meters for elk, the 6.5x55, wich is one of the most used calibers in sweden, wont be legal to use any longer with lead free.

[@robertstewart1464]

@@jmkhenka the problem with the copper 22lr is it may as well be made from unobtanium. There is no availability and cost is so prohibitive, especially for pest controllers who could be shooting over 100 rounds in a night taking rabbits. It's up to the industry to "sell" the concept of copper bullets being accurate and not significantly more expensive than their lead alternatives. It's the same with all other calibres in the UK. People would be converted in a heartbeat if this ammunition was cost effective. One of my other worries is .22 is very prone to ricochet so would that issue not be exacerbated by using a harder bullet material?

[@ImNobody-1]

@@jmkhenka Not true i already shoot leadfree bullets on elk & boar with Fox 139gr in 6,5x55 its 2700j @ 100m @ 840ms V0 , only need 60cm barrel and fast powder like N560.

[@Hermod_Hermit]

Stock up now. Boxes of 5000 22 lr will be hard currency in a few years if we are unlucky.

[@RETOKSQUID]

@@jmkhenka those poly-copper .22 rounds are all but useless. Have tried them in several different rifles, pistols, and revolvers with less than acceptable results.

[@jamesjahoda1613]

I love the Hornady 308 Superformance. I'm always inside 150 yards. It does a great, very precise job. Better than lead.

[@davidnave4349]

P.S. Very good video and very informative .

[@NorthwoodsNomad]

Great content ! It’s always nice to see reviews coming from other countries than here in the USA . Does anyone have any real world experience with the Corbon T-DPX ( Tipped Deep Penetrating eXpanding ) all copper hunting ammunition ? Is it loaded with the Barnes TTSX bullets , or is it proprietary manufactured ammo from Corbon ? Just curious how it compares to some of these shown here .

[@English_Speaking_Fox]

I recognise that finding a good proxy for a deer torso is difficult. That said, a water tank is far too homogeneous to be used for objective expansion testing. Our experience with copper bullets is that adequate expansion at short range is relatively straightforward, but as soon as range gets beyond ~2,300 - 2,400 ft/sec impact velocity for 6.5mm, .277" and 7mm cartridges, expansion performance is a lottery depending on where the deer is hit. A hit behind the shoulder not including bone on the entry is a likely very long runner and much higher risk of a lost deer than if using a frangible lead bullet. Longer range testing is necessary with a variety of media to challenge the bogus claims made by many of the copper bullet manufacturers about terminal performance at low impact velocities.

[@robbrown3606]

If you dress all your deer in a thick layer of HDPE then their results are perfect!

[@lmacias1519]

When using all copper bullets you must use the light for caliber and amp up the velocity . Non lead expanding bullets are game changers in the sense that it will transform your old 30-06 into a 300 WM inside of 300 yards. I have no reservations using a 150gr E-tip on an elk out of a 30-06 at 300 yards. 150 copper =180 lead performance without the lead flakes in your meat. 168gr= 200gr and 180 gr = 210gr in the appropriate rifle. Remember light for caliber. 130gr in a 308win, 150 gr in a 30-06, 168gr in a 30-06 or 300WM & 168gr & 180 gr in a 300WM+

[@nospam3409]

How did you decide on 100 and 250 yds? Seems to me that anything you learn from 250 yds is going to be true a shorter distance. I would think that if you're testing at 100, you would push the second test back 400 yds or more. At the very least, push it back far enough to get the impact velocity down under 2000 fps. And it's "ought" six, not "O" six. ;)

[@drubradley8821]

"because that is where the crow was".... I hope you all don't mind if I barrow that line, for why I am horrible at PRS.... LOL

[@garymartin557]

water is not the best medium to test ammo with. a ballistic gel would be a better test.

[@jmkhenka]

bullshit, both are liquids that resist compression almost entirely. Gel only give you some fancy photos of wound cavities etc. You wont have more or less expansion in gel then water, what it will tell you is how far in the expansion starts - here it might be intresting as a small roe deer might not expand a pointed ballistic tip like TSX or GMX before leaving the body but the lapua might work much better.

[@garymartin557]

@@jmkhenka really? different density, sheer stress. water is pretty much non compressible in everyday applications, ballistic gel has different mechanical properties.

[@ncb2734]

Great video. Look forward to many more Thanks to everyone involved

[@ZachBillings]

Watching from the US, I'm impressed with this UK firearms content. Here, my 9mm hollow points in my everyday carry pistol use Barnes TAC-XP bullets which are very similar to the TTSX rifle bullets in this video, but for 9mm. In my testing they exceed the performance of the lead jacketed hollow point offerings available.

[@mblake0420]

Except hst

[@ryewaldman2214]

South Dakota here. I laugh at the notion that 250 m is "long distance". Out here in the prairie, you feel like you can stare into the the soul of a deer or pronghorn at 250 m. Hunting in Pennsylvania, yes, there aren't a lot of places in the mountains where you can shoot much further than 80 yards in the forest. I realize that this video is geared toward the European hunter, specifically in the UK, but there is a global audience on KZbin, and some of the generalizations/assertions made here aren't necessarily true in different locales. Just wanted to comment on the context and different perspectives different hunters in different locals might have. The "if you shoot at game at 250m, you aren't hunting" is some small-minded gatekeeping. Some of the best traditional calibers, and even some of the newer trendy calibers, operate at very modest velocity. I'm thinking specifically of 30-30s and 6.5 Grendel. The 30-30 might have a very hard time generating the velocity to get reliable expansion out of copper solids. Something like the 6.5 Grendel might also struggle to generate the velocity without giving up the bullet mass that would be required for penetration on larger bodied deer (Read, North American deer). There is no denying that it is technically simpler to build lead-core bullets that have appropriate terminal performance across a broader spectrum of velocities, e.g., Eld-x, ABLR, Partitions, Fusions, etc. Plus, the increased density of lead over copper means that solid copper bullets will never match the external ballistic capabilities of a similar lead-cored bullet (BC -> wind-drift, velocity retention). Physics dictates that until some type of tungsten-based material or some other non-toxic, but heavier-than-lead materials is used for bullet cores, non-toxic bullets will always sacrifice some aspect of external and/or terminal performance compared to a state-of-the-art lead core bullet. Of course, we can resume the magnum craze and every must shoot bigger, harder recoiling guns to compensate, but that makes hunting less accessible to the young, small, or physically impaired.

[@kylespraysammili9108]

All of England can fit into our smallest great lake...what you call a sensible range for hunting is far different than Canada or the USA. If you're hunting the prairies for mule deer...your closest shot may be 100yrds. Or 400-600yrds. Sometimes farther. Not much cover to move in. If you're sheep/goat hunting the mountains...you might have to shoot across a valley. USA has places much the same. Great video nonetheless 👏

[@sja9836]

Re Boot test: Try boots on in the afternoon when your feet are swollen. These look a wee bit small for you?!

[@freedomfirst5420]

If you can't get 1 MOA groups with Barnes bullets, you need a better rifle or more practice. Just my personal opinion and experience. Good testing!

[@gerryaarts6572]

Very interesting video I learned a lot thanks very much guys and keep safe and keep going

[@GdaySport]

Was very sceptical about lead free bullets being forced upon us in the UK. I was thinking new barrels with different twist rate rifling was going to be needed, so quite relieved in that sense. Still concerned about rimfire calibers, I only shoot 22wmr and 17hmr nowadays...

[@andyeighttre]

“No single bullet that’ll do it. You have to choose the bullet for the task”. Eligently worded way of saying a deer bullet isn’t an ideal elk bullet, even if it’s 30 grain's heavier.

[@dustindunham2135]

Thank you so much for doing this know how expensive it can be to test all the copper ammo

[@ChiquitaSpeaks]

So pretty much these all are solid copper hollow points? Interesting understanding all of this now as I did quite a bit of research trying to understand barrel twist and came across contrary information but I sorted it out now, your barrel twist is actually related to bullet length more than weight it’s just traditionally increasing weight increases bullet length but solid copper rounds throw a bit of a wrench into that philosophy… Long story short if you wanna shoot with solid copper you might be better off investing in faster barrel twist to stabilize longer bullets from the beginning

[@russgaartexastrainingandbo949]

Im no rockstar hunter compared to many of my friends though i spent almost 30 days hard hunting this year. i shot a huge doe a few days ago with a .223 Barnes TSX by Federal. she folded instantly, i opened her up, entrance wound was small, surprisingly small, 100yd shot btw, high shoulder shot, upon opening her up the devastation was amazing. exit wound was about the size of a baseball with a 55 grain bullet. Barnes projectiles are simply awesome at delivering energy and cavitation.

[@visiter127]

Was hoping for a few of these types of videos we'll done lads,

[@alexpark7139]

I definitely did subscribe and like!…this is the best copper mono cross-the-field caliber/ weight/ brand/ range test on the tube! Thanks so much..now..if I can find 85-100 gr .243 for sale I can clear some hogs off my whitetail deer land! Thanks Pop

[@calangel]

That last copper bullet that you talked about that fragmented the front half of the bullet, that behavior really does allow it to explosively kill smaller game as well as penetrate deep in larger game. Hammer bullets work like that, but the fragments are large, 4 to 6 in count, and also penetrate to the offside ribs at best both lungs or liver at worst. These kinds of bullets really do make lead core bullets, without respects to cost, an inferior choice for hunting edible game.

[@Ge-Fat]

thank for the show! excellent info, hope we can keep it up!

[@roebuckred4482]

I have had friends who are professional in the shooting industry plus game keepers who have had problems with Hornady bullets and ammo, from shooting deers to dangerous game in both Africa and the land of the kangaroo. They will not use Hornady as it fails or looks like November the 5th with what comes out of the muzzle of the rifle. They use Barnes X's as they never fail.

[@robbrown3606]

Hornady has too many gimmicks on the menu to do them all properly. Poor quality control is their motto.

[@billcollison4393]

What are the suppressor laws like in thew UK ?

[@fieldsportstv]

You have to have a licence - the same for a centrefire rifle. Bit EU 'noise in the workplace' rules make a mod compulsory. / Charlie

[@94Whiskey]

Proof is in the pudding.....

[@anan0moose]

They need to make lead free pencils.

[@1bobharvey]

I have used the Barnes triple shock and later variants of the same bullet since 2006 on mule deer in the western united states out of a .243 with 80-90 grain bullets hand loaded. longest shot to date was 650 yards, and the deer fell over where he was hit and gave 2 head throws before he was down and out. Even at 650 yards I never recovered the bullet, I only found 1 petal out of the 4 buried in a rib on the entrance side. And even on that particular deer it had 1 lung with a hole in it, one lung turned to gel and I couldn't find it other than pieces, and a ventricle of the heart was missing. I have used them on game as large as black bear as well as rocky mountain elk and with proper shot placement they work quite well. The point is don't be afraid to use all copper in the right load, and at least with the Barnes they expand quite well at any distance my rifle and I can shoot well while maintaining their weight.

[@johnnymccann5607]

Yes i good some times, I did mean Sierra bullets . I am shore there several brands of that would equal Sierra bullets , I just haven’t found them yet. excuse my spelling when I was a young lad i was far more interested in chasing the girls and some let me catch them. those were the good old days. nana and papa aka the hunter wishing you well.

[@JohnG975]

Great job! Watching from Wyoming. I shoot Barnes due to its great performance on Elk. Barnes ttsx has never failed to achieve quick clean kills even at longer ranges from my 300 Win Mag.

[@KTMsoldier1988]

Shot a whitetail under 100yds with a ttsx out of my 300 win mag....right behind the front shoulder. It definitely wasnt a quick kill. Deer ran 500 yds and the blood trail was poor. One benefit to these bullets is they dont damage alot of meat but they dont seem very ethical.

[@Calqid]

I don’t know what happened there, I can only assume that the bullet somehow missed vitals. I got a nice black tail this summer with 5.7 x 28 at 175 yards. It jumped up, jumped up a second time and over a ledge, and landed without a twitch. Now, if you compare my little aluminum core SS 197 to your TTSX at 3000 ft./s,..

[@taurushipointenthusiast1306]

Odd thing odd thing with say black powder we always work up a load, Now I see with the copper load, rifling Ruger/Browning copper ammo the work up will have to be done there as well, Bullet style weight, charge per what the rifle likes

[@allandobbs7059]

Interesting but not definitive.Lead will Still out perform those bullets at all ranges with the proper weight and construction of bullet.Still thanks for the hardwork in making this film happen!Well done to Andrew and Tim always interesting.Sorry ,forgot David’s stupendous presentation skills!👍

[@borries4222]

shot a cape buffalo 12 Aug 2020 with a .300 Weatherby loaded with 200 gr barns x. it was shot form the front and the bullet stopped in the rib cage and used only one shot to kill it very good bullets barns x expanded beautifully . shot placement very important

[@TrollinCrazyRussian]

Copper is less dense than lead, copper bullet need to be longer to reach same weight. Twist vs weight is not necessary about weight but the length of bullet, the longer bullet is the faster twist need to be. Often rifle out of factory has too slow of twist for newer longer copper bullets.

[@jeffreylocke8808]

The Lehigh Defense Dangerous Game flat meplat solid copper bullets for Buffalo Bore brand are great bullets that penetrate straight and deep. It makes hunting handguns out of 44 magnum at 265 grains. Up to 400 grain solid copper 500 S&W magnum Ballistic Butterfly factory loads.

[@Primer595]

Choosing appropriate boots was simpler than choosing bullets! These boots are made for walking. It was enlightening to see the performance of copper bullets. Pure lead is very toxic but if it is alloyed with one percent tin for example its toxicity drops by 99 percent! Also lead does not work harden so it can expand without fragmenting in a suitable alloy mix. Temperature extremes might alter copper alloy performance in different countries. Just a thought. I bet you had fun!

[@dilon491]

Its no myth that copper bullets are ridiculously expensive around $2-$3 per round!

[@quinnsmithy8778]

"magnumitis" i love it