Film Theory: Spider-Man’s Biggest Threat is… the MCU?! (Spider Man Across the Spider Verse)

[@Dadude420]

Surprised not many people aren’t mentioning Peters baby. Peter explicitly says he had her cuz he wanted her to be like Miles. But he likely wouldn’t have had her if not for miles BEING Spider-Man and getting bit. Therefore making MayDay a break in the canon yet Peter’s universe is fine, another hole in Miguel’s logic

[@MerajKhan-gd2bs]

Suit in spider's anime universe that got destroyed in first movie

[@eglol]

Yeah, but it's not a huge canon thing.... Or wait, maybe it kinda is? Since that Peter met Miles, he turned his life around. That wasn't supposed to happen in the canon, right?

[@seanpariser7300]

It’s a hard claim because Sony could just say Spiderman is suppose to have kids and part of the cannon. The motivation doesn’t really change things.

[@Mystic.stories]

Oh, so one time it wasn’t a spider bite one time a bunch of spiders eat peter parker, and the spiders became Peter Parker so it doesn’t always have to be a spider bite. You have to be spider related just a quick note.😂

[@iamrosemist5630]

I just realized that the punk-spider called the baby an anarchist and approved of it. So did he know? He'd also been trying to prevent Miles from seeing Miguel and saying things like "we don't follow orders". I'm curious about his world.

[@calebgilbreath6116]

You forgot to mention how Gwen’s father quit the police force, thereby removing the police captain dying thing. And her universe is still intact. You should have definitely mentioned her.

[@Thesuperduperbooster]

There could be a future captain close to spider Gwen that ends up dying tbf

[@pingpong607]

@@Thesuperduperbooster Then the same could happen if Miles stops his dad becoming captain. While Miguel tried his hardest to stop.

[@sb221]

❤

[@Thesuperduperbooster]

@@pingpong607 if anything that just further proves that Miguel’s theory has holes in it. He hasn’t learned about what happened with Gwen and her dad yet. So if the same could happen to miles, he wouldn’t know and still is in his mentality that these events are destined to happen

[@gabfid3]

In the first spider-verse movies rifts from using the particle accelerator are mentioned, creating holes through which one can travel creating laying the groundwork for the events of the second movie.

[@MozartTheGOAT]

The fact that this multiverse movie had more madness than the actual multiverse of madness is madness

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

Multiverse of Madness was a crap movie and you can't change my mind

[@Brodieee12890]

Godzilla had a stroke trying to read this and died

[@Just_Some_Gal]

Hey Mozart, I'm a huge fan

[@derrickdaniels3955]

I thought it was good

[@basically_boring]

now this is an avengers level threat

[@MasterTMO]

I feel that Miguel's Timewatches have some sort of protection against causing incursions, so that anyone wearing one isn't a threat to the stability of that universe. Case in Point: Miguel's own universe, with *HUNDREDS* of alternate versions of Spiderman just chilling there hasn't had any incursions.

[@Lucia-Katuendji]

so the spot has tht same protection as a add on to his powers and is noone gonna mention tht girl tht the scarlet witch was trying to kil whos powers are MULTIVERSAL TELEPORTATION

[@MasterTMO]

@@Lucia-Katuendji Actually, we don't know if Spot has that protection or not. After all, that might have been an incursion after his jump into Spiderman India's world. I would assume America Chavez has some sort of protection built in to her teleport as well, since she's not apparently leaving wakes of destruction behind her. It's possible the mechanism used to do the teleportation is important - some are more destabilizing than others.

[@evanholloway1692]

⁠​⁠@@MasterTMOwell he won’t have to worry, because since he merged with the collider from Pavitr’s dimension, he became almost like a God. And that’s going to destroy every canon in the multiverse unless he is stopped, if he isn’t, this could be the end of all Spider Man everywhere all together.

[@Pranksterpants1]

@@MasterTMO Feels great knowing that I’m not the only one who subscribes to that theory that Incursions can be prevented in the MCU’s portions of the Multiverse if you have the right protections. Now that I think about it, the theory that I had about Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch being unable to cause Incursions as a result of their inter dimensional (or, perhaps more accurately, interplanar) travel spells kinda doesn’t really work because Sinister Strange and 838 Strange exist.

[@heyman000]

This theory has flaws

[@rmhartman]

Miguel actually pulled a Kingpin. Finding an intact family in a parallel universe to take it over was EXACTLY what Kingpin did in the first movie.

[@Johnnyupside]

Now that you mentioned kingpin isn't miles goal the same as him in the previous film. Risking the fabric of space time continum for their family

[@scarletspidernz]

@@Johnnyupside And we come full circle back to when it all started

[@danteloparco6708]

Also Scarlet Witch’s goal in Multiverse of Madness

[@astrophynix179]

@@danteloparco6708 Yeah! I thought the same thing, people crossing over to other universes to find a one where they can have a family.

[@lordmango6060]

Yes! Although Kingpin wanted to _take_ that substitute family and bring them into his own universe. Whereas Miguel just took the deceased version of him's place instead. It's a more sneaky, but arguably more ethical(?) way of doing it.

[@lolglolblol]

Something that surprisingly few people seem to notice is that the rubble in Mumbattan was already covered in this spreading dark matter even before the canon event happened. The dark hole is 100% the Spot's fault and the canon event just happened to coincide

[@saucevc8353]

I wouldn't say no one noticed, Miles himself noticed in the movie. When Miguel tries to pin the blame for the incident on Miles breaking a canon event, Miles rightly points out that it was Spot's fault.

[@saucevc8353]

@@ramonandrajo6348 Woke? Lmao you people are really triggered by anything. What exactly makes the movie woke?

[@ramonandrajo6348]

@@saucevc8353 Demasculinized male characters, female empowerment and/or mistreatment of male characters based on the third wave feminist agenda, false "diversity", and so on.

[@Sarlasmancranmaji]

​@@ramonandrajo6348 we are woke ourselves, shut up.

[@SeanGamePlay1]

but it didnt glitch before the canon event was broken

[@ourcade8265]

I'm surprised he didn't mention Gwen Stacy's dad breaking canon by quitting his job. It's another knock on Miguel's canon theory, but it also pushed Gwen to realize the error of her and Miguel's ways and try to help/join miles

[@LetsPlay4Free]

The "police captain close to spiderman" does not technically has be her dad though

[@gamingtiger31]

EXACTLY

[@movienerd9362]

But also by removing a Spider-person from their universe doesn't that cause problems because now theres no spider-person in the universe. Assuming that one big canon event is that there's a spider-person.

[@Galaxy-rj1kj]

@@movienerd9362not at all Miguel is just fucking lying

[@kittyself]

@@LetsPlay4Freebut she doesnt have anyone else in her life that is a police captain, so i feel like its heavily implied that it was supposed to be her father

[@MyNameBeeKayy]

I found it interesting that Penii Parker was in the sequel. Miguel's universe was set in 2099 but Penii is from 3145 so if Miguel's theories are true than as long as Penni exists, the canon is still intact. She's from a different dimension but from the future in any dimension she shows up in.

[@Cera_01]

I mean just because she's from 3145 doesnt mean that someone couldnt have started the universal unravelling

[@MyNameBeeKayy]

@@Cera_01 true but realistically she would be the first the be affected. Change the past, change the future. If that makes sense

[@MyNameBeeKayy]

@@ilunrs that doesn't apply in the spider verse since there can only be one variant of each spider, they consistently interfere in separate dimensions, and just about none of them are NOT parallel in time. They meet outside the confines of their time periods and dimensions. That's an MCU concept and I'm glad it doesn't bleed over. Plus the fact that it's a character verse and not a timeline or universe kinda implies that each spider is already an alternate "branch reality" from the original human being but by a superpower inducing spider. Which is why it's represented by a web and not a stream or tree. They're supposed to meet each other and be part or an interconnected story

[@nokzep8118]

nah

[@TimeBucks]

You're not wrong about the audio mixing

[@MOBILEHUB7]

Nice svryva

[@lavanyaandol284]

👍

[@AHSiyam-mb7th]

👍👍

[@AHSiyam-mb7th]

👍👍

[@mantashaparween785]

Nice

[@artechstorm]

Fun fact, the guy who made Spiderman Into the Spider-verse scenes out of Legos was so good, the director contacted him to create a scene for Lego Spiderman's universe. Dude isn't finished Highschool. I give mad respect to him.

[@supergamerconnor4355]

I think I actually saw his recreation of Leap Of Faith, although I didn't know he made more scenes.

[@artechstorm]

@@supergamerconnor4355 I think at the time of his last episode or before that, he was making the lego scene for Across the Spider-verse.

[@scratchgaming111]

@@artechstorm that guy was only a teenager 😀

[@artechstorm]

@@scratchgaming111 yeah. Respect to him

[@thatguysanimation]

The guy is 14, I feel like trash

[@bigbean1627]

I feel like this is why Hobie was the best character in the movie. He warned Miles about Miguel and the spider society, bailed on them the moment they got all anti freedom, and builds the watch which will (probably) let Gwen find Miles and eventually stop Spot

[@d00mshr00med]

I don’t think Hobie was supposed to be totally correct in his reaction to the situation. His game is anarchy. His decision to go against Miguel wasn’t made out of care for human life, but for his own personal entertainment. Don’t get me wrong, that actually makes him a very interesting character, but I don’t think he’s as good of a person as you may think.

[@Kor06.]

@@d00mshr00med you're completely wrong

[@devofficialchannel]

I just like that Hobie was set up to be this "rival" for Miles in a "love triangle" only for the film to toss it away to show that he DOES care for Miles. And given his background as an anarchist living in an authoritarian version of the UK, it is understandable why he wouldn't give in to the Spider-Society's mindset.

[@caramelfrappe402]

@@devofficialchannel If you think about it, felt like the movie was trying to make Hobie a trope / love triangle as some Spider-Man comics / shows do have that going on with characters involving Gwyn or his other love interests, but our rebel is such a strong believer in going against the system he broke away from that and helped Miles out instead. Dude is awesome.

[@ColdNorth0628]

@@Kor06. he himself says he is not a hero cause thats not a term he wants to go by.

[@nogai2296]

I actually just realized that the reason Miguel O Hara was “breaking” the canon is because him dying in an alternate universe was that universes uncle Ben moment. If you look at the scene where he dies it is animated in a comic book form like the canon events and it is extremely similar to uncle bens death.

[@voidatethesun]

iirc gabriela was supposed to become spiderwoman after his death too

[@its_Aurelia_]

The dark matter in mumbatten is definitely spot considering it 1) looks and acts different than when Miguel’s world fell apart 2) happened immediately, whereas Miguel’s probably took some time

[@szymon2109]

Yeah, but all those "emergency" spidermen that came to control this dark matter and Miguel himself talked like they seen it way before Spot became a threat. Plus, they had equipment to control this matter, and they knew how to use it.

[@cirnotheicefairy3609]

@@szymon2109 because Spot's dark matter is still dark matter. With the appropriate technology, it can still be reversed, not to mention dark matter being what it is, means it is very much obvious what it is. Unlike how Miguel's world fell apart, it glitched like the time the Collider first fired back in the first Spider-Verse movie. Anyway.. Spot himself is out there somewhere in the multiverse now, plotting to do something with all that dark matter he's amassed, something to do with Miles specifically, and he's pretty much a multiversal threat now.

[@danisdcpdiary]

@@szymon2109Yeah but the canon events are pretty arbitrary if you really think about it and in the comics there are actually characters who are meant to hold the spiderverse together so it’s clearly not Miguel’s job. It’s heavily implied Miguel is a synthetic Spider-Man. So even the first canon event, the one that makes Spider-Man “Spider-Man” doesn’t even happen to all of them. For example, Spider-Man India was given his powers by a shaman. And Spider-Punk wasn’t close with the police, he was the one who k*lled the police force in his universe because it was an authoritarian police state. Miguel is literally just acting based on his own traumatic experience. Edit: Also that tech to control the dark matter could have come from two places. Both of which prove it may not have even existed and they created it on the fly. 1) Every universe with an Alchemax was experimenting with dark matter as supported by the Spot using interdemensional travel to go to Alchemax and increase his power (which is multiversal travel using dark matter) so they took it from Alchemax. Or 2) They synthesized it using tech they already had which is supported by Spider-Punk creating his own multiversal travel watch from parts he took in Nueva York’s Spider-Man HQ.

[@drawingbanana8158]

this is exactly what I was thinking, especially since the simulation of the "canon event" Miguel experienced has a different look to how it appears when we presumably see it happen with Pavitr's universe

[@winnie3624]

THATS WHAT I WAS GONNA SAYYYYY. like what if since miles did it it was different and all that matter was was spot opening another portal on accident to let more villains through.

[@DocBarrelRoll]

The “anyone can be Spider-Man” is exactly why Stan Lee originally gave Spider-Man a full-cover mask and suit. That’s one of the primary lessons of Spider-Man, so it’s likely to be correct.

[@aston4763]

it wasnt the original idea but he was glad it happened. stop lying

[@FruityGroovy]

Well, no, that's not originally why Stan or Steve Ditko have included the mask. Stan fully admits it was not intentional, but it's a great happy accident in retrospect.

[@stevekirkpatrick1612]

I wonder if one of the background easter egg characters for the next one will be Man-Spider. From a universe of arachnids where a researcher is bitten by a tiny radioactive human.

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@aston4763 More people need to learn from Stan once your product and character is out there in the public it can change and adapt...It's not something to fear or hate but to love that people loved your character and story so much they wanted to improve, add, critique and copy it. It's literally the very example of something becoming beloved and becoming more than the sum of it's parts into a legend.

[@ramonandrajo6348]

A shame that the movie is w@ke.

[@mechayeti9476]

It's funny how people have missed that every other spiderman is bit by a spider, but Miguel wasn't. He was gene sliced with one to cure a drug addiction. He is the most different spiderman (fangs, claws, altered vision, no web crawling, organic webs, and no spider sense) yet attacks Miles for not being like the other spidermen.

[@thegrandatm1844]

Spider ham wasn’t either

[@azazelvr946]

spider-racism

[@navymalfunction9710]

lol yeah when i watched the movie im confuse about that, mainly because of the spider sense

[@secondcoming2783]

​@@thegrandatm1844at least he got bitten by something

[@ethai1]

Was it explained in the film, or is this from the comics?

[@luisserrano2585]

That prowler twist in the end was crazy , I loved it , it was different and even though you started to see it coming it was still “shocking”

[@ohokay4663]

Honestly, i'm fascinated with how Miguel's motivations are so intrinsically linked to fear. He has this deep grief, guilt, and anxiety from destroying the world that he was happy in- and then to deal with and avoid future instances of similar trauma, his brain found what it thought was the most probably cause and he became hellbent on seeing to it that it never came to fruition again. Miguel's character is one of an obsession with maintaining control in order to cope with the horrifying events that he witnessed and likely blames himself for. It makes him simultaneously a deeply sympathetic antagonist, and a deeply infuriating one- because his drive is one that's so illogical and narrow sighted, but extremely relatable and frightening for an audience to imagine experiencing.

[@mulisagaming7916]

I completely agree

[@PsychicSiren7]

I agree. He needs therapy. And a lot of it. I don't know if that makes him a "Bad Guy" though? I just think he's traumatized and needs help. There's a difference between an antagonist and villain, and Miguel O'Hara seems to fall into the "antagonist" catagory for me. He's not Evil. He's just trying to a good thing in his view, for the wrong reasons, and trauma and what must be a MOUNTAINLOAD of PTSD are obscuring his judgement.

[@eglol]

Yeah, it's pretty interesting!

[@dereklouther9372]

⁠@@PsychicSiren7he’s pretty evil He literally used Thanos Logic like everyone else did during the thanos run of the MCU and tried to justify it to miles cuz He gave up trying to find a reason

[@PsychicSiren7]

@@dereklouther9372 Miguel watched not only his alternate universe daughter, but an entire Dimension collapse around him. And the entire dimension, including the planets, the earth, every life that could have existed there doesn't exist anymore because of what he did. (This is what Miguel believes.) So in his grief, he comes up with that theory because he wants to ease the guilt on his conscience, Because he believes that he's responsible for wiping out an entire dimension of people and sentient lifeforms. He's probably got a lot of ptsd, trauma, survivor's guilt, and who knows what else under his belt. So when Miles comes up and basically throws it in his face that " I'm going to do what you couldn't, I'm going to change Fate and save the person that means the most to me", all Miguel can hear is that this kid isn't listening to his experience and is continually insisting that he can do what Miguel couldn't, and change the fate of how these things are supposed to work. This doesn't fly. Miguel sincerely believes that what miles is going to do will wipe out his universe and all sentient life within it. And while the chase scene might have been a bit of an overreaction, Miguel did it try to talk miles down before throwing the force field at him. I still believe that almost all of the spider people in the spider-verse movies need some sort of therapy, but this just proves my hypothesis that Miguel O'Hara needs therapy the most out of all of them. Not only because of his unique issues in the comics, but also could stem from his feelings of inferiority, because he believes that he's not a true Spider-Man due to him not having the same origin story. But to answer your original question, I don't find Miguel O'Hara evil. He's just someone who's been slotted into the category of antagonist. If anything Miles should fear the Spot more because at their core, Miguel and the Spider Society are still spider people and stand for the values that Spider-Man stands for, while Spot has promised to take everything from Miles, and hasn't hesitated to cause damage. While Spot won't hesitate to cause damage, Miguel is trying to fix things, he's just trying to fix things from a flawed viewpoint and perspective of how things should go.

[@giftedblessing7087]

I love this, this makes the spot an even greater villian because of how easily he travels across different verses. Also the movie literally leaves off with miles in another universe.

[@hastalasopasequemo3645]

I think the spot not being subject to glitching might be a huge power

[@Wins7YT]

@@hastalasopasequemo3645at first I thought he wasn’t gonna be a big problem & many more villains are gonna come but I was wrong I guess he’s the main villain 😅

[@hunterofdarkness8329]

​​@@Wins7YT Bro is gonna grow so powerful he would be eating Marvels Gods for breakfast. Not even the infinity gauntlet can change Spots reality because now he would be every and nowhere at the same time, a walking Schrodinger. (This is sarcastic btw, I know how powerful Galactus is)

[@yuorion3056]

bro has the death touch

[@X-SPONGED]

I think the main message of the Spiderverse sequels are directed to future writers of the Spiderman IP not just the audience. "You don't need to follow a set of rules of what should or shouldn't happen. Write your own story." Because at the end of the day, "canon events" are whatever the writer deems to be canon (or what the executives want). There are no hard press rules, just write what you want and keep your love of doing it.

[@johnnygyro2295]

Amen to that. In a nigh infinite multiverse, there are nigh infinite possibilities.

[@jbutarbutar1817]

​@@ramonandrajo6348ah yes i "wake" movie, if you wanna say woke you should not use the instagram symbol.

[@notmchlfx]

@@ramonandrajo6348It IS woke, Hobie’s few lines are woke af, if you’re a bootlicking cuck it might offend you

[@maadtee6281]

To bad Miles will lose his mother in this look at her hairstyle

[@ramonandrajo6348]

@@jbutarbutar1817 KZbin, dude, KZbin. ;)

[@wild_lee_coyote]

If you pay attention Miguel’s universe is destroyed in the same polygonal shapes he uses for his suit. Mumbatton is being destroyed by the spot that the Spot generated with the super collider. Dr Strange destroyed his with the mirror universe. So it seems that the incursions seem to be more a factor on what system is used to universe hop. And at least Miguel is cleaning up the villain incursions that are happening in other universes to try and prevent incursions there. I just think his obsession with cannon events is misplaced. Remember it’s not Miles’ fault he got bit, it wasn’t his collider experiment, and he wasn’t actively trying to be Spider-Man.

[@justarandomkleemain]

If Miles isn’t “supposed” to be spider man, then maybe canon events won’t be the same for him and won’t have the same repercussions. if that is the case, the writers would be able to highlight miles’s ability to literally write his own story as he does not have to live by the rules of the other spiders’ lives, which could happen in beyond the spider verse

[@FappityFappityFap]

basically hes a non-temporal being, detached from the laws of time and space and able to do anything without consequence to the fabric of the multiverse. coincidentally, all of these incursion events could literally have been spots doing this whole time.

[@jrbudoybudoy]

He isn't the correct miles that was bitten. It was supposed to be Earth - 42 Miles.

[@davidsmith3687]

That still should mean Earth 42 and his still should been wiped if it's truly canon events surrounding specific spider people, so I still think the incursions make more sense. And there's a LOT of universes: not so good guy Spider-people, vastly different lore, etc. The whole point of timelines and multiverse is the infinite possibilities, paths, etc. So it would make sense that two universes that weren't supposed to meet getting crossed into causing the problem a good origin. My question is why didn't the other multiverse events cause glitching effects? Does magic protect them where tech doesn't unassisted? Albeit not forever or at least repeated travel still building up to a problem if the person themselves is fine (travel destabilizes, and foreign universe presence makes it worse over time, aka it's not just you glitching it's also the world around you even on micro levels that could spread especially if you're subatomic particles get scattered everywhere).

[@jrbudoybudoy]

@@davidsmith3687 Maybe Miles didn't glitch out because the Spider that bit him is from that Earth originally

[@davidsmith3687]

@@jrbudoybudoy if it was canon events, not having a Spider-Man should've ended world 42 and many things should've ended Miles's world: the original dying, having two Spider-people even if temporary, etc. Just shows that it's not canon events, because you could drag in the game lore with Miles and Peter too whom didn't have a multiverse spider but new experimental ones. Then there's the fact Miles DID glitch in Earth 42 where the spider came from, and the spider glitched in the first movie on his earth.

[@unhinged-nas]

Its honestly mind blowing how they managed to make almost all the events that happen the climax of the movie all at once and still not loose the viewers intrests for a minute and even after the end.

[@lodestar3984]

This! I was focused the entire time!

[@thisaccountisnotinuse]

i literally told my dad we had to stay in case there was an end credits scene, i stared at the credits for like 3 minutes without anything happening, but i was still so invested

[@sullyschwartz2365]

They have mf-ing climaxes within the first half hour-Gwen leading up to the title drop? That was an ENTIRE story arc BEFORE a fucking Title drop. Do you know how immaculate you have to be with pacing and editing? The soundtrack is immaculate as well, incredibly immersive and fitting every moment; Part of why that Gwen arc's climax is pulled off so well is thanks to the amazing music as Vulture shoots up out of the museum

[@kitkatlove89]

I think it’s strange that Miguel blames miles because KINGPIN was the one starting the whole mess in the first place.

[@LucarioNinja92]

If I remember correctly, wasn't it also The Spot who technically started this mess in the first place? He brought the 42 spider into Mile's world which it turn created the chain of dominoes that lead up to all of this. Spiderman didn't really create the Spot, Spot created himself by making a new Spiderman.

[@atilacirano5905]

Miguel is probably jealous of Miles because he is ok "being an anomaly" while Miguel couldn't all these "canon events" are bull, Miguel didn't disrupt that when he pulled a Rick and the spider 42 was going to be the second spider event for Peter from Miles universe

[@jackcashcow]

@LucarioNinja92 Certainly you are right but, Miguel O'Hara started telling Miles that he wasn't supposed to be bitten and become Spider-Man but Dr. Jonathon (The Spot) was the one bringing Earth-42 Spider to Earth-1610 causing Miles Morales being bitten and becoming the anomaly of Spider-Man, and it wasn't Miles' fault cause then he wouldn't be able to get his knowledge all about the canon-events. Technically from another universe, Earth-42 Miles Morales became the prowler but falls for Spider-Man, and he's not suppose to be bitten either from that universe if Dr. Jonathon (The Spot) brought the spider and chose to bit Miles in Earth-1610. From the conclusion: Miles Morales from Earth-1610 deserved to be Spider-Man, Miguel O'Hara started arguing Miles Morales on what Spot did to him, and what Wilson Fisk did with the collider causing some spider-people being brought from another dimensions. Miguel O'Hara started acting hostile against Gwen Stacy for whatever Jessica/Lyla did with the portal, and she did nothing at all if Miles followed her through the portal where Jessica/Lyla opened. Before Peter Parker died in Earth-1610, he started insisting Miles on what he needs to do with the goober, and in the future, Miles Morales saved the day against the collider and Kingpin, and sending every spider-people back to their homes. (In Spider-Man: ITSV, Miles told Peter that he doesn't want become one, but Peter replied to Miles that there wouldn't be any choices but he'll go through his head.) Edited: Spot was the one making Earth-1610 Miles Morales an anomaly. And Miguel O'Hara should've come there and help Miles Morales to get rid of his nemesis.

[@R0Kdarock]

​@@LucarioNinja92if you are saying it like that why couldn't spots mother be the one who started it all

[@guyschill2059]

Well there's a reason he didn't tell miles in the first place, he only told him after he completely lost his cool

[@Bman32x]

One major issue I’m glad MatPat pointed out, Miguel caused an incursion in the 2nd universe likely because Spider-Man already existed. He also implies the cannon event has to be a police captains death. Gwen’s universe, let alone spider rex disprove that. Miles can exist in both bc like venom, the earth 42 spider is only part of him. In mumbaihattan the universe collapse doesn’t look anything like that Miguel caused either. It looks like the spot is just attacking the city center

[@pablorosada9788]

another point against "canon events" is that not every spiderman is bit by a spider. In across the spiderverse itself, Pavitr Prabhakar is never bit by a spider. A shaman connects him to a spider god that gives him the powers directly, and in the comics Mayday Parker inherits her powers, but never gets bit either. More so, the japanese version of spiderman that Mat mentions, Takuya Yamashiro, is given his powers in the form of a spider bracelet an spider extract following his father's death. and he, too, never gets bitten.

[@davidbjacobs3598]

Miguel, Jess, and Ben Reilly (all in this movie) were also never bitten. I don't remember if Peni was bitten or not. Spider-Ham was a spider who was bitten by a radioactive pig.

[@ShadwRavn]

@JackHaIrowjust stop living.

[@TiniTiller]

im also 90% sure that miguel got his powers from alchemax and not a spider, so unless there was another spider before him, his universe should be gone.

[@sr_aron]

@@TiniTillerCorrect. He’s literally part spider, hence the claws, fangs, enhanced eye senses and no spider sense

[@juliendimattia8871]

@@TiniTiller There usually is a 1960-2020 or whatever current year spider man that's a part of history in spiderman 2099 universes from what I've heard

[@JonathanHolt1988]

The biggest problem I see with this theory is if having Spider-Men from different universes puts you at a higher risk of having an incursion, how in the world is Miguel's world not in complete and utter chaos considering they have thousands of different Spider-Men there?

[@mexicantoer9456]

TRUE

[@rohithdhar7755]

Not only that. But also Mattpat clearly misremembers what was causing incursions in Multiverse of Madness. What caused incursions wasn’t a person coming into another universe. Instead, it’s someone constantly and excessively dreamwalking into into their counterpart’s head in another universe. The reason being is that the film reveals that people’s dreams are actually events that a counterpart of theirs are experiencing and they are viewing in their subconscious REM sleep. In 838 Strange and 616 Wanda constantly dreamwalking, the boundaries of the universes are significantly eroded by them consciously inhabiting the body of their counterpart in another universe for a long period of time. That’s why 838 Dr. Strange mentions to the Illuminati that he caused an incursion when he’s “dreamwalking.” The fact that dreamwalking is a dangerous thing to do is further emphasized by 616 Dr. Strange inhabiting the corpse of Defender Strange and coming to Wundagore where Wanda calls him a hypocrite. It’s dreamwalking that is causing incursions rather than people stepping into universes.

[@penguinchickie]

thats what i was thinking like if incursions are the case then why hasnt their spiderman-filled world not blown up yet

[@davidobright9468]

@@rohithdhar7755 Yeah thats what i really dont like about this theory, but I have another thought that im really surprised that nobody has mentioned. In the show What If, we see Dr. Strange try his best to break an absolute point in time, the success of which causes the universe he lived in to vanish. Vanishing makes more sense than an incursion because it's confirmed that's what happened to the world that Miguel went to. The point that I really want to make is the fact that, in both stories, a super hero tries to do something to change the thing that drove them into being a super hero. Miguel would have stopped being spider man and Dr Strange would have never become the Sorcerer Supreme. This doesn't explain the hole created in the universe that Indian spider-man was in, but I think it's really worth noting. Also the containment fields used to hold prisoners, rifts, etc, look very very similar to the bubble that the What If Dr. Strange ends the episode in.

[@LucidTak3n]

so glad someone pointed that out

[@ramekin4797]

people fail to mention how Miguel’s story of replacing his dead self to be with a happy family is literally the parallel of Wanda’s plotline in Multiverse of Madness

[@lodestar3984]

And literally did it better

[@clarkstrange2142]

@@lodestar3984 Actually speaking the truth rn

[@sullyschwartz2365]

@lodestar3984 Because they didn't try to waste an entire show just to set him up as an antagonist. Also didn't try to make him sympathetic. Also had him acknowledge how he was wrong for his actions.

[@lodestar3984]

@@sullyschwartz2365 Exactly. He was a much less fractured character than Wanda, since he was new. If not for Wandavision, I think Wanda would have been much more interesting.

[@onion8761]

I also think its really similar to Kingpins character.

[@Incarta2006]

I feel like another MASSIVE plot hole in the movie is that Miguel himself is a walking break of the cannon. He was never bitten by a spider, in his story he was genetically altered into a Spiderman. And because he has already become a Spiderman he with therefore never be bitten. He is the literal product of breaking the very first rule of the cannon and he and his universe is perfectly fine.

[@jnzbtw]

thats not a plot hole, thats the whole point of the movie. miguel is wrong

[@ravenwilliams7986]

this is an old comment but miguel o’hara’s original spiderman already has died before he took on the role. that’s how he ended up taking on the role after becoming 50% spider. this is obviously leaning on it being canon-ish to the comics

[@seanano2434]

Miguel's not a plot hole actually. Miguel is from the year 2099, so he comes from a future where the Marvel heroes were already around and passed.

[@mumpygronk2448]

my biggest issue with this is the spider society itself. hundreds, possibly thousands of spider people are occupying miguel’s world and not a single incursion has happened with them. if one single miguel simply living life in a different world is enough to destroy that world, shouldn’t the spider society coming together completely destroy the entire multiverse?

[@JS-td7dg]

That's a doubt I also had with this theory but tbh I'm sure the writers would've thought about this if it was actually the case. So I don't think this theory is true, but it makes a mot of sense (beside the spider society in 1 dimension)

[@timmcguire653]

My guess is they built it in an incurred universe kinda like evil doctor strange in MoM they can’t cause an incursion because the universe is alread incurred

[@mumpygronk2448]

@@timmcguire653 that would be a good explanation if there weren’t civilians living in nueva york (miguel’s new york). since incursion wipe out the people native to their earth, these people can’t be civilians of an earth that experienced an incursion since they would all be dead

[@me-lm9ru]

@@timmcguire653 Maybe it's the one that Miguel lost his family in

[@me-lm9ru]

@@timmcguire653 Maybe it's the one that Miguel lost his family in

[@eshelynn]

It also perfectly explains the first movie as well. Kingpin was TRYING to cause an incursion, just to get his family back, merging the two dimensions until (hopefully) his universe, and his family remain

[@polypython]

One scene in the movie that I think is important that everyone seems to fail to bring up is the scene where Gwen is brought back to her own universe near the end and her dad resigns from the police force before he becomes police captain, meaning he won't die because his circumstances don't fit the exact mold of how the supposed canon event is supposed to go. Then of course she gets the spider-punk watch and decides to try and help Miles because she knows now that her father is no longer going to die in a canon event that the story doesn't always have to play out the exact same way.

[@SmashtoonGamer]

That’s gotta count as a canon event being disrupted, since he only decided to step down because of her leaving the universe for however long and I don’t think a spider man leaving their universe is part of the canon

[@tezomkonrad]

​​@@SmashtoonGamer don't know if I should compare this, but according to the what if series, canon events cannot be changed and if changed would lead to an incursion. It took Dr strange a lot of work and magic to save his girlfriend from dying and it eventually led to an incursion but in across the multiverse miles didn't really do much to prevent or change a canon event and the effects weren't as immediate as that of the what if series. My question is, why didn't earth 42 get wiped out when it didn't get it's spiderman. Why was it so easy for miles to change a canon event whereas it took Dr strange a lot to do his and the effects where immediate

[@islixxn]

I thought the whole point was to show the potential of canon not mattering

[@BadMelody.]

I don't think it's a scene that a lot of people missed, it was pretty obvious from her reaction when he said it. Miguel is definitely wrong about the what's happening, he's made out to be a pseudo antagonist in this movie, the question is what is really causing realities to collapse.

[@Zadem]

​@@islixxnw nero pfp

[@magsisdumb478]

I think this was also backed up by Hobie leaving Miles a note at the end saying he was going to help him (presumably in the next movie). Sure, this could be explained by his general antiestablisment ideals, but he's been working with the spider society up until now. This tells me he joined to investigate their values and if what they were doing was actually benefitting people, and he has information to help miles that hes learned through working there

[@Shblee]

I cannot tell you how much pain I felt when the “to be continued” came up on the screen at the cinema. I was so sad. I GOTTA WAIT A WHOLE NOTHER YEAR FOR THE NEXT PART!!

[@JustDoingReviews]

Now you have to wait like 3 to 5 years

[@JustDoingReviews]

@@shruqabdullah5036 Have you not heard it is delayed and we have no idea when it comes out it is at minimum that not coming out until early 2025 because we know Sony movies coming out in 2024 so it is definitely not coming out in 2024. I know it sucks

[@JustDoingReviews]

@@shruqabdullah5036 yeah it was confirmed in a tweet that Sony made about the time line of when the movies come out.

[@eglol]

It's only supposed to be a year it's fine 😊 my family was bummed but personally I'm very satisfied. Instead of being sad that I can't see the next part now, I'm so happy with the two hours we got this year and I'm super excited for the next movie! Hopefully we will be able to see it soonish!

[@Duolingo3450]

​@ryanRosenblatt I didn't realise it was delayed that long. Imma go cry now

[@shreyaskumar7398]

I think one potential flaw with the theory involving incursions is that the entire spider society exists on one earth, Miguel's earth. If incursions were the real threat, then his earth would've surely collapsed long ago with all the spider ppl constantly existing on his plane. Perhaps it has something to do with the devices on their arms which prevents this, I'm not sure.

[@eliasbranch5383]

That's what I thought. in the first movie they call traveling. through the Spiderverse an "aunotomous multiverse jump." I think that means that they act seperate from their universe, with the device.

[@yonatantapiro]

agree with ya, but i thought bout it for a bit... most of the those spider ppl are inhabiting miguel's universe for not more than a day i guess, we havent any spider dorms or any of the other spider ppl being there for too long, propably each spider is going by, taking a task, grabbing a few more spidies and head out to the mission and report back to the HQ. maybe the incursions require for people from other universes to stay there for the long run, like migeul had with his family (it could have been years man who knows)

[@mr.cookiecutter]

Yeah I think it's the devices. Every time we see an incursion there was someone without a device. Miles didn't have one when he saved the Indian police captain. I think that that might be the trick, and Miguel is going to be so mad when he discovers that he had the tech to avoid the problem the whole time.

[@simeonbachev5323]

@@mr.cookiecutter the problem is that when Miguel went to the universe where he had a family he had the device since he wasn't glitching out while he was there. Meaning that the devices can't prevent it.

[@shreyaskumar7398]

@simeonbachev5323 yeah thats what I was thinking, perhaps the devices just delay it, I really don't know

[@BatAmerica]

Miles's dynamic with O'Hara is fascinating, considering their tense relationship is formed exclusively by outside factors. Yet, both are driven by something personal (Miles with his father, Miguel with his lost daughter). Considering where both end up with the Spot, I can't wait to see that payoff in Beyond The Spider-Verse.

[@IdentifiantE.S]

@LiIDruk​​⁠ You put it 2 times to really show that you agree ? 😅

[@destroyer99612]

​@@IdentifiantE.Sso what

[@V0R1EXGamer]

@@IdentifiantE.S its a bot

[@googoogaga7986]

I think they’re gonna be forced into being allies, and then hopefully they’ll have character development because of each other’s point of view and influence

[@4ncientGu150]

Unfortunately Matpat I must correct you. Miles dad isn't about to be made captain of the NYPD. He's going to be captain of the PDNY

[@sanjanaakotyada4753]

wha- oh is it like non-violation measures or smth like that?

[@4ncientGu150]

@@sanjanaakotyada4753 No, it's just a joke showcasing how Miles world is a step left. Instead of the police being the NYPD (New York Police Department) it's instead the PDNY (Police Department of New York).

[@EBOWSAGOE-BIRIKORANG]

Ohh

[@ElNomada2505]

Interesting note, the Canon Events of this movie matches with how the Ancient One explains Fixed Points in time working in the What If episode for Strange Supreme

[@BigPunDude]

@@SkyDerechothe comment was talking about what if, not endgame. In what if the universe does end when dr strange breaks a fixed point which is basically the same as a cannon event. The problem though is a fixed point is universe specific as not every dr strange had to have his wife die. This means that Miguel’s logic is still flawed as fixed points are universe specific so he can’t apply his canon theory to every universe.

[@BigPunDude]

@@SkyDerecho I totally agree, infact I remember hearing that MOM was originally about the villain nightmare instead of wanda but I suppose they really wanted to do the multiverse stuff which is pretty disappointing because I think nightmare would've been a really interesting antagonist. Not to mention that I don't even think marvel knows what a multiverse is since they use it almost interchangeably with alternate timeline as if they are separate universes.

[@psquared2020]

​@@SkyDerecho It has nothing to do with Dr. Strange being the best of the Avengers. It's because he saw only one possible outcome of beating Thanos. So giving him the Time Stone was part of that.

[@thesublimeparadigm8863]

@@BigPunDude But canon events ARE universe specific, just like fixed points. That's why it doesn't literally have to be "Uncle Ben" dying, it just has to be an "Uncle Ben figure." Each canon event is more about the IMPACT they have on the character and not the exact event itself. So in the case of Strange, both the death of Christine (What If version) and the injury to his hands (MCU version) lead to the same result: Strange turns to magic and becomes the sorcerer supreme.

[@No_namess]

I was also thinking this too when I was in my bed thinking about it.. I kinda wanna write a quick KZbin video or something else.. I still believe what’s staid in this video could be right.. this could also be something to think about.

[@sopakbarua3567]

This made me think about how Miguel has all of the spider-men in the lobby, likely leaving massive footprints, but not causing an incursion. It's possible that the glitching that happens when the characters are in an alternate universe without the watches on could have something to do with causing incursions. Maybe the watches that keep them from glitching and allow them to travel the multiverse, are also the key to preventing incursions from happening. Since Miles and Spot didn't have the watches and left massive footprints (Spot destroying the Alchemax building and Miles saving so many people) an incursion could have happened due to their combined actions. This would explain the spider society not causing an incursion since all of the spider-people have the watches on, keeping them from glitching and preventing incursions from happening. This could also mean that Miguel's theory on cannon events is still partially true since these cannon events, if disrupted by someone from another universe who is not wearing a watch (for example miles), could leave massive footprints that result in incursions.

[@monkedude9400]

That makes a lot of sense Good job

[@Devil_sonar]

Wasn’t Miguel supposed to die? He’s the one who changed his universe

[@kubamcmillan3078]

The original debunks incursions

[@Avgcomicrelief]

Then miguels and pavitr's dimensions shouldnt have collapsed

[@ItsVasl]

exactly my point!

[@Just_Some_Gal]

Matpat's the kind of guy who can nail any innocent superhero with 37 Federal charges

[@h0m3st4r]

​@LiIDruk Enough of your lies, Shocky x Sparky. Now, get off of KZbin and take your spam bots with you.

[@gameknightplays1211]

True

[@yauchikin]

@@h0m3st4ryeah

[@RyanSoltani]

A master of his craft

[@jaysoncampos2446]

How to sum up MatPat in one sentence.

[@williamdavis9018]

I actually love this theory because I think this theory would make miles even more of a hero, technically saving his entire universe by taking you the mantle of Spiderman after the spider from another dimension indirectly got peter Parker killed and therefore stopping it from having a truly huge effect on his universes canon

[@BoyBacon5051]

I believe the bracelets they wear to travel dimensions also keep them from tearing the universes apart. Otherwise the universe where the spider society is would probably tear apart from there being so many spider-men in it but it doesn't. Even after they all start swinging through the entire city when going after Miles.

[@jackcashcow]

I think you mean by a gizmo, and gizmo is a navigation watch where you could go to any universes, and can prevent you from glitching.

[@CreepDestroyer]

I'm not sure what the spider society is, because it might be a different plane of existence instead

[@mrgroudon182]

spider society is Miguel's home world, I think, it's future new york(2099).

[@Kaguya_04]

​@@CreepDestroyer it was Miguel's universe

[@CreepDestroyer]

@@Kaguya_04 no? No it wasn’t.

[@amier6495]

So given that the spot can go between universes as he pleases, doesn’t that make him essentially a walking incursion?

[@anonimoose165]

Oh definitely. The dude is gonna be the downfall of the multiverse.

[@stansmith7445]

That’s why he needs to be dealt with ASAP

[@ThatComputerGuyRyan]

@@anonimoose165Unless he is stopped. The issue is that he is so unpredictable at this point no one knows how. I just wonder if he is solved in the end of Beyond or just the solution gets found at the end of beyond

[@danielloewen2857]

​@@ThatComputerGuyRyanmy theory is that he will be defeated in the beginning/first half of beyond, and then the rest will have Miguel as the main antagonist

[@Lucia-Katuendji]

i believe his powers have a preotection against tht just like other power and wat about tht girl from doctor strange with multiversal powers to wat if their powers grant them not to be detected cause the anomol is due to confusion of the universe in the first place

[@AKiwiBird]

Miguel does imply that they usually are able to save universes from their collapses. We also know that those holes weren’t opening up until mikes became Spider-Man, and the spot got his powers at the same time. So I’m pretty sure all those holes belong to the spot.

[@VladtheInhaler]

Yeah i buy that. We havnt been given a scale for just how powerful spot is now. It could be that spot is the one destroying spiderverses by visiting them, or he's doing it intentionally. For all we know, after the collider scene Spot could be time travelling, killing off spidermen from different universes, doing all kinds of things that would cause incursions. We'll probably find out he was behind the death of Miguel's family and the destruction of his next reality in revenge for something Miguel will do in the next movie.

[@mrsteriy2101]

Yeah also the way the destruction of Miguel's universe was portrayed is a lot different from what happened in pavitr's universe

[@johnathanowens2560]

One thing Matpat mentioned was the size of the “footprint” crossing over leaves. Until the events of the movie the spider society were hidden away at the top of that massive skyscraper, not really leaving a footprint on the area. If the theory is correct we could see that change in Beyond the spiderverse since so many people witnessed and were affected by the chase scene 🤔

[@ahshitherewegoagain8695]

​​​@@johnathanowens2560also we see that Miguel has an algorithm that calculates how much the canon event is disrupted (shown at the beginning before they stop the helicopter) which is equivalent to how much footprint they are leaving in that universe.

[@Antonio-ys5zd]

Alright to debunk this; Miguel is right. Miles was not destined to become spider-man as proven by the end of the movie where he is sent to the spider's universe and not his. He glitches out because he doesn't have a stabilizer like he does in his home universe. The first being Kingpin's collider and the second being the Spot. These are what keeps that universe stable because the canon can't be repaired. In the universes where it can I believe they make events happen to provide some level of emotionally impact to still occur that strengthens said Spider-Man and if that fails then the universe dies

[@LeoSu-f3z]

MatPat, this is a very good theory and it explains a lot but you forgot about how the first movie in this franchise litteraly has at least 6 spiderman inside Miles realm at the same time for a pretty long time too. If that is so, why would mile's realm still be here?

[@ThatComputerGuyRyan]

The only real impact they left was fighting the villains. They didn't cause much damage and their glitches weren't forcefully stopped. Miles is really the only one that did any important stuff there and the collider may have had an impact on the chance of an incursion

[@LeoSu-f3z]

@@ThatComputerGuyRyan Good point, but your forgetting in the other movies, the collective were afraid of Dr strange's very existence, giving us the impressions that incursions are pretty delicate. Also, they did fight the big boss guy, which should count as an action

[@UrMentalHealth]

Maybe the more they play with multiverses the less stable they are?

[@danielloewen2857]

My personal theory is that their arrival was a Canon event, and Miguel isn't looking at the whole picture, because there are Canon events caused by anomolies

[@LeoSu-f3z]

@@danielloewen2857 That is also a good theory. However, that just defeats the whole definition of "canon events". It is very rare for a universe to be invaded by three spidermans who are not local, which means that canon events aren't even canon events anymore

[@randomuser-fz6lz]

I have a theory, but the only problem is that it wouldn't make sense for him to assemble an entire spider society for it, unless he already had one prior. Maybe the way he acts towards Miles is more selfish. I think that Miguel is afraid that Miles is right, and that you can break the “canon” without the world collapsing, and that his daughters death in the second universe was in vain. Need I mind you he left his original one, so who knows what happened to Miguels family in the first one, to go to another universe only to lose his family again which was his fault according to what he told Miles.

[@King-zx3ts]

That’s a really good one, I would have never thought of that

[@carbon.the.christ5626]

🤔🤔

[@kitsune_gt]

the way he described the universe it sounds like he didnt have a family in his original universe or already lost them

[@Gutansky]

the universe where the spider socity is in, it's his universe

[@sharedaxis4670]

he didnt have a family in the original one, they died.

[@aidanpearce9839]

The use of Water colors in Gwen’s world blew my mind. On my third time through I noticed in the beginning Gwen has a light blue and her dad has pink behind him. But after Gwen’s identity is revealed in that world they both occupy Orange. Incredible movie with things you only notice on the billionth watch.

[@MbitaChizi]

Matpattis my inspiration. My parents said if I get 10k followers They'd buy me a mic for recording..begging u guys, literally begging.

[@ShadwRavn]

@LiIDrukworthless human garbage

[@STOICD1201]

Mat, your editors deserve a raise man. They nailed the text changing theme, similar to spider-verse. I mean they theme every theory according to the movie it is theorizing but this one is impressive more than the others.

[@Zedicy]

i concur

[@kozynthetaquito5506]

totally agreed man

[@wolfiemuse]

I’d imagine they already make a fair bit of money, but yeah 100%

[@90abonnessansvideosdu42]

No

[@1DK.]

The glazing is crazy

[@Tlrt_]

0:25 dam he was right that does slap

[@A350flyernyc]

If MatPat is right on this one, then that means the only way to avoid incursions would be for everyone to return to their respective universes, given that the likely hood of incursions is increased by an individual’s footprint in another universe. What really really scares me about that is that Miles and Gwen are from different universes, and if being in a different universe risks an incursion, then that would mean they would never be able to see each other again. What’s even worse is that this is kinda foreshadowed when Gwen says that the relationship “never ends well.” Miles and Gwen being split up could be the big tragedy at the end of the franchise. I’m PRAYING that I’m wrong here! (And tbh maybe I am since I haven’t seen the movie yet due to a hectic few weeks, but I’m going to as soon as I get the opportunity).

[@kalebfinn8446]

I think he might be wrong on the incursions as wouldn’t the spider from earth 42 crossing over create one since it caused Peter to die and miles to become spider-man. At least that’s my thinking

[@shibainu2528]

I'm not entirely sure on how incursions work, but wouldn't they have a butterfly effect like with the Earth 42 spider? If Miles had his entire destiny changed to be Spiderman, then that would spiral into everyone who Spiderman meets into having THEIR destinies changed, and before you know it, Earth 1610 has a giant tidal wave of incursions all originating from a single spider. If this thought process is true, then that probably means that all the other Spidies that Miles met / changed indirectly through the supercollider not being shut off in time, will have their universes in danger. Noir has a world where the knowledge of our colors exist for example, that seems pretty major with all the research that might be done on it.

[@A350flyernyc]

@@shibainu2528 fair point. MatPat can brush over this stuff from time to time

[@youdontknowsponge6218]

What if like all the Spider-Men jumping into his universe causes his universe to merge with Gwen and Peter's as an excuse for Miles to spend more time with them.

[@benjaminlopez6121]

Sense all the spider people are in Miguel's universe wouldn't that make an incursion?

[@mushroomz3110]

Mayday is also a big factor as to why Miguel's theory doesn't seem entirely correct. In the movie, Peter B tells Miles that the WHOLE reason that he had Mayday was because of Miles. But Peter was never supposed to meet Miles, according to Miguel's timeline he was supposed to be a miserable sad-sack grieving in his apartment. It's because of Miles, who is an "anomaly" to Miguel, that Mayday exists. So, theoretically, Mayday even being BORN should've absolutely obliterated Peter's universe, but it didn't.

[@Mediados]

Miguel has to believe his theory is correct, he found closure with the fact that he caused the death of his family. If Miles proves his conclusion wrong, his entire operation loses its meaning.

[@Brasswatchman]

This. This exactly.

[@Brasswatchman]

​@@Mediados Exactly. Which is something they'll have to help Miguel get past.

[@shadowwriter4538]

One could argue that Mayday would have probably been born anyway; it's possible Peter B might have gotten his life back together later had he not met Miles but that's probably not the exact case.

[@Brasswatchman]

@@shadowwriter4538 Yeah, but by the same token, Original 1610 Spider-Man could've wound up dead with or without Miles there in the first movie. One can't say for sure he screwed up fate in one place, but was totally unnecessary in the other. The causal chain cuts both ways, you know?

[@homerman76]

What I like about this theory is that it connects back to the first movie where they found themselves in a situation where they're dying by being in another universe. In other words, the universe will either try to remove the intruder or it will self destruct in the process of it can't

[@joshbrosh6626]

The spider that bit miles also was glitching out in the first movie So this was a set up from start

[@calebwhite6323]

Omg, like an Immune System

[@DarthVader-wk9sd]

Except no such thing happened in no way home or multiverse of madness, the logic is completely inconsistent

[@NoblesNobule]

@@DarthVader-wk9sd exactly. and in miguels world theres literal hundreds of spiders and no incursion. I don't think he put much thought into this theory

[@PEASANTPAINT]

@@DarthVader-wk9sda case could be made for the difference in how they got to other multiverses, the collider incident is definitely a far less sophisticated way to travel to other universes causing some form of dimensional feedback not present it’s magic

[@lasercraft32]

I'm 99% certain that Miguel's reasoning is SUPPOSED to feel kind of off... On the one hand, he might be right. On the other, he's almost definitely not. Whether its because he's lying or because he doesn't know the full truth, we don't really know yet. But I'm definitely siding with Miles on this one.

[@maxzapsgamingzepzeap2337]

I’m hoping they find a way to allow people to exist in other universes without causing Incursions. The Watches and Day Passes stop them from glitching out when in other dimensions, so since those devices stabilize their forms in other worlds, it may be possible it limits the possibility of Incursions, which is why the entire Spider Society can exist all at once in Nueva York without causing an Incursion, they’re completely stabilized. And the reason Mumbattan was starting to experience one was because Miles didn’t have a day pass at the time, so he wasn’t stabilized and thus threatened the stability of Mumbattan It also seems The Spot may be an exception as we never see him glitch out ONCE, which may just be a side effect of the dark matter portals coating his body. They naturally warp him to other dimensions so they may have naturally formed in such a way the dimensions they connect to don’t experience Incursions as a result

[@sweetieswifey627]

One of the better conclusions I've seen yet here

[@ahmed4363]

or its just spots erasure power at work

[@thejus1489]

If people from different dimensions can cause incursion (without the band) then miles universe should be destroyed in the first movie due to the presence of multiple people from different universe in his universe without the safety band.

[@Random_Dude_01]

​@Thejus Incursions aren't always 100%, they've been explained as an event that could likely happen, not as a guaranteed thing

[@IceMetalPunk]

Interesting take. I saw it the other way around: the bands are *causing* the universes to collapse. In "Into", everyone in the wrong dimension kept glitching, and Doc Ock mentioned that the longer they stayed, the more they'd glitch until they disintegrated. So it seems to me that Miguel's bands, by preventing the *people* from glitching, create a sort of fallback effect where the *universe* glitches/disintegrates instead, and the longer they're there, the more it falls apart. It doesn't explain Nueva York being stable, though... But then, your idea doesn't explain why Earth-1610 wasn't collapsing in "Into", so I think both options have questions that need answering.

[@LettuceBoy421]

I had always assumed that the reason why Miles’ universe continued to exist after Peter Parker’s death is because there was already a replacement spiderman, hence why Miles’ uncle died, and why his father is possibly going to die. It was able to wrap around the missing spider-man because there was a new spider-man

[@megaegg2285]

I think the whole canon event thing is bullshit and Miguel might just be a control freak maybe

[@p-__]

My farts are better than Matpat’s farts 💨 💨

[@LettuceBoy421]

@@megaegg2285 I believe that the canon events are real, just not how he thinks, I think there are set things that must happen, but I don’t believe that they all have to have a dead uncle, no parents, dead love interest ect

[@sr_aron]

So why didn’t it work for Miguel a second time?

[@Syndicate_LS]

@@sr_aron Every other case allows for adaption. A replacement will allow for the events to follow them and their lives instead, but if you are a replacement for yourself, it cannot adapt. It’s essentially just trying to follow the same path twice, after it’s already confirmed to be a failed path. Since he did so, it led to its inevitable collapse. Most events have to happen but it’s never explicitly stated any order, but at the same time if most events already are set, then changing that without an immediate fix to the problem that is still not the identical thing, then it results in that collapse as well. This is probably why it collapsed in on itself as soon as miles saved that dude, but also why it collapsed when my man tried to replace himself after death

[@Synthalotl]

I’m surprised you didn’t bring up the fact that Gwen’s father quits the police force, thus never having him make the rank of captain, completely avoiding a “canon event” that should happen to Gwen. I can’t wait for the next movie to tackle this

[@117MasterSpartan]

I mean it’s not that deep it literally happens in any time travel or multiverse movie or a lot of movies in general of “your fate is in your own hands”. Heck even god of war ragnarok states the obvious. Anything could happen canon events don’t mean anything

[@jonasquinn7977]

Tbf that could literally just be explained away as him not being the captain that eventually dies

[@Zombatt]

​@@117MasterSpartanin Marvel What-If, doctor strange tries to change a canon event but it just keeps happening over and over.

[@117MasterSpartan]

@@Zombatt that doesn’t affect anything of the MCU or spiderverse because it’s a what if

[@Chrismorgan6]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXLQnp-Hj6-Zb5o Finally it’s here🤠

[@hamzarajper8141]

The only issue Iam facing to understand about this theory is that as you mentions over at 14:30 "no extra dimensional visitors have spent any significant time there", wouldn't miguel's universe collapse instantly due to soo many different realities spidermans are at one location. Even tho in the movie they reference them as "part time" spiderman, they still collectively spending over hundreds of hours in miguel's universe.

[@anaghnagpuranik6536]

Maybe Miguel fixes this problem with bracelets, Miles Morales was given a bracelet that made him stop glitching, which may also stop incursions too I guess.

[@Jeanpierrepolnarefftheone]

I love how matpat matches the film theory introduction theme to the movie every time

[@bambisbluebell]

The sad part too is that I also think Miguel is pushing all the blame onto Miles, WANTING him to be the problem, because if he's not, that means that Miguel killed his family in a different world, and he doesn't want to be a part of that. So by taking out Miles, he wants to fix everything. Edit: To clarify what I mean, since a lot of people seem to be a bit confused (my bad, I didn't word it very well), what I'm saying is that, to him, Miles HAS to be wrong. Because if it was the breaking of canon events, it was Miles that started it and while Miguel was at fault, now he's making up for it. If Miles is correct, that means that not only has everything he's been doing to try and "repent" for what happened became useless, but it also means that there could have been a way to save his family, or do things differently that could have changed the outcome. Great power, great responsibility kinda thing. So I think that's why he's going after him so hard, not because it'll save lives but because he will have to face the truth if Miles is right. (Long comment, sorry)

[@justice8718]

Miguel fears having Miles and other Spiderman make his mistakes because he killed everyone from ignorance.

[@bambisbluebell]

@@justice8718 Yes, I think so, but I also think that he wants to shift some of the blame onto Miles. Obviously it's not stated, but I think that's part of why he's so desperate to go after Miles, by saying it was all his fault, it removes some of the blame from Miguel and I think that's what he wants. To feel like it's not his fault, even if it's just a little bit.

[@beefomuffin1049]

@@bambisbluebell killing your family will do that to you

[@justice8718]

@@bambisbluebell He blames himself outright in his own speech. It's the first thing he explained.

[@ParkityParkPark]

this is called the identified patient, commonly seen in problematic group dynamics of varying natures (most typically addressed in families). There's lots of problems going on and everyone collectively decides that it's all rooted in one person, smaller group, etc. "Oh, if only so-and-so would stop doing such-and-such everything would fix itself." It's usually a mix of shifting responsibility and wanting to maintain a sense of control over your life, relationships, and environment.

[@jazmine5707]

I think the incursions can be stopped by the little watches they wear. Everytime an incursion started it was because miles didn’t have the watch, like in pavitr’s world. And Miguel was staying in that other universe for so long that the incursion couldn’t be stopped, but it makes me wonder if Miguel ever glitched out

[@8teezy]

So I went back and looked at the intro to the spider verse end credit scene and the scientist essentially says that the watch is a prototype so he’s gotta be careful. So the incursion might’ve simply been because the watch wasn’t calibrated right or malfunctioned.

[@nj2063]

It’s great to see someone mention this! If the watches didn’t prevent incursions, then Miguel’s universe could be a catylyst for hundreds of incursions due to the overwhelming amount of spiderpeople hanging out there

[@seanspencer3041]

​@@8teezyThere is a 1 year and 4 months between the two films

[@RomanBabb]

an incursion can start many ways if yop mess with something wrong like bending the rules of reality like superior strang or even miles wearing a watch this small detail could be true but i dont think they can save a universe with the watch

[@galaxyorca2029]

In the Arrow show there was massive fan backlash because Oliver Queen ended up with Felicity Smoak instead of Laurel Lance. It's a perfect example of what you said about people being stuck in the way that things are supposed to be

[@searchingfortruth619]

Such a great point. TBH Laurel was always kind of a youthful infatuation, and she's pretty fickle throughout the show. She's kind of impulsive and immature. Like I can cut her some slack cuz she goes through some crazy stuff, but it makes me feel less bad about Oliver not ending up with her. What I HATED was how Felicity and Oliver legit ride off into the sunset and are happy, and then they just chuck it out the window. Felicity is super immature throughout that whole arc, and they could have brought Arrow out of retirement in a better way. A much more natural/organic transition that gives the storyline the space to contend with the tension of playing it safe vs going to help people (plus other similar themes) would have been way better. OR....just end the show on a happy note! Shows CAN END. SHOCKER! And they can continue to have Arrow guest start in other shows and just hang a lantern on it and Oliver can say "just this once" or something. Anywho, end of rant.

[@haydes1285]

A question I had is how miles’ spider affected his dna enough for him to be sent to 42, but not enough to stabilize him while he’s there

[@averyrobinson6474]

I was under the impression he got sent there because the machine read the spiders' home universe rather than the persons, and Miles was just the first where it wasn't the same for both

[@M_k-zi3tn]

The machine reads the spiders dna not the person. This is said earlier on in the movie

[@nathanguava883]

Yeah you’d think he would be able to survive in both dimensions without problems, I guess they needed to make an obvious show that he was in the wrong universe and put a deadline on him being there without assistance in Beyond

[@haydes1285]

@@M_k-zi3tn them how does it know where to send villains?

[@finixmoon127]

When you're talking about the laws of the multiverse itself, I think it goes a bit further than just DNA. Even if Miles' DNA is from Earth 42, he didn't originally come from there. Perhaps there's some sort of invisible bond between a person and a universe that isn't related to biology

[@arandomperson9116]

It could be that everything can just be prevented using Miguel's bracelets. They seem to be doing a pretty good job, example being the fact that the world Spider Society uses as a homebase is still there. In both in film examples of universes collapsing or on the brink of it, we see outsiders without bracelets. Miles in Mumbattan and Miguel in the collapsed one.

[@darkpool7289]

I think for Mumbattan the Spot is also is at fault, like any other villain that the Spider-Society hunts and captures.

[@morienforeshadow4553]

To be fair, the main priority of the Spider-Society isn't just to reinforce canon events but to capture anomalies that could also cause incursions.

[@drlovec6925]

With matpat 2 cent. This now includes themselves 😂

[@jasonenns5076]

​@@drlovec6925They are not changing the universes. They are just stopping the mistakes. The incursion in the second secret wars was caused by Amadeus Cho or whatever his name was of Earth 1610 maintain the portal from the Spider-Men comicbook open, which cause the multiverse to converge.

[@kratkartan1486]

Ironically, while Miguel calls Mile an anomaly. He himself is one. and he's a very dangerous one as his meir presence destroyed a reality. I honestly think he going to have to die to fix all the damage the society has done because if it wasn't for him. The damage wouldn't have been this bad.

[@asd-dv7dq]

@@kratkartan1486 Miles became an anomaly and Miguel himself isnt an anomaly he just made one by destroying that world

[@kratkartan1486]

@@asd-dv7dq You literally just said the reason why Miguel himself is an anomaly. His presence alone caused an entire universe to die. If you're going to call Miles one for those things happening, then you have to say the same for him. Miguel is a massive hypocrite.

[@kushywaygalaxy4428]

Love this video! I also questioned some of the same things about cannon events such as why the planet the spider 42 came from still was intact after not creating Spider-Man and how miles home world never reacted to miles being bitten and Peter dying. Thinking it may have something to do with his “original Anamoly” status and a potential to “rewrite the cannon”

[@samurexatlas7373]

Another detail with Mubattan's hole: the Alchemax building chunk still had writhing Spots on it. Maybe they all merged and grew once held in place, faking out the Incursion.

[@gobocarter]

While I think the same thing for the most part I can’t help but go back to Miguel saying that they can’t always fix it, feeling like an implication that it has happened before, more than once outside of just his story (but again it could be a lie?)

[@danielloewen2857]

​@@gobocarterI doubt he would lie about that, especially considering there were other spiders present who likely could know otherwise and become suspicious of him, so I think he told the truth there

[@elyssalawson8412]

Imagine how devastating it would be if in the next movie, Miguel comes to this realization. Everything he's been working towards, everything he's done to protect all these universes, were all for nothing. I can imagine him having a breakdown.

[@ethans3839]

Especially when he realizes that he's been telling thousands of spidys to let their loved ones die because its "cannon", like with Gwen

[@commonsense9558]

I'm down for this

[@omalleycaboose5937]

Imagine if he discovers someone put a virus in his AI friend that gave him false information

[@aneonfoxtribute]

Japanese Spider-Man was promised to be in Spiderverse 2, but that was before it was split into 2. As it stands, Spiderverse 3 has a very likely chance of having Japanese Spider-Man

[@FernandoCarloto]

All i need from Spiderverse 3 is some kind of Tengen Toppa Sp//der Leopardon, i don't even care if it's dumb or unnecessary.

[@shreksmistress]

AYYYYY YAYYYYY

[@uwuface1828]

But rlly does it matter at all he is a power anger rip off it’s boring soo I ask again who cares?

[@Flipside2099]

I need Japanese spiderman to fly in out of nowhere in his spaceship and blast some minions soooo bad

[@aneonfoxtribute]

@@uwuface1828 A lot of people care, and it matters because it will be fucking hilarious. He is a Power Rangers rip off, but it's funny.

[@PatGencarelli]

Your theory is correct because that's what the animated Spiderman movies are teaching the viewers; that canon ultimately doesn't matter, those canon events don't change who Miles is. The movie is directly responding to all those KZbin essays/reddit posts of people confused/angry/debating over what's canon and what's not canon on any fandom. There's this huge outcry for Disney to "de-canonize" the sequel Star Wars trilogy because some things don't make sense in the over arching star wars universe, when in reality none of that matters, just watch things that you like and don't take everything so seriously. Miles just wants to live but he's being told that the way he wants to live is incorrect. Miguel can be seen as a representation of Star Wars Theory, for example, he's a massively popular Star Wars influencer who complains when the story starts to deviate from his feeling of what is canon. And due to his influencer status and his audience, those impressionable viewers ultimately take his side.

[@JonSkull03]

I feel like I'm the only one who's mentioned this, but the hole that opens in Mumbattan looks nothing like Miguel's universe collapsing. Personally, I think that it's obviously just The Spot leaving behind a huge hole, intentionally or not, because of his strengthened powers

[@sasson10]

I actually thought it was the Spot trying to destroy that city until it was said that it was something to do with the "canon events" stuff

[@badsaturnz23]

Somebody also mentioned that Miguel's universe disappearing matches the visuals of when kingpin's machine blew up

[@tranngockha6562]

​@@badsaturnz23 Oh yeah, now that you mentioned it. It could be possible that Miguel wolrd was destroyed by Miles's Kingpin. In that universe, Miguel's Kingpin family was still alive, then Miles' Kingpin use the collider to pull that family away, resulting in an unstable universe. Miguel infiltrate that wolrd make it worse, thus the unstable wolrd collapse.

[@saphcal]

yeah its just the spot

[@truevoltz7451]

I swear in the movie they mention that they’ve dealt with this before and so it’s surely similar to ‘breaking the canon’ and not due to the spot using his power

[@chaihill1837]

There's a couple of other parts in Across that disprove Canon Events that I'm surprised Mat didn't go over. 1. The hole in Pavitr Prabhakar's dimension was caused the Spot and the collider, Miguel blaming Miles for breaking the canon and causing that was just coincidence. 2. At the end of the movie, Gwen's dad (Captain Stacy) is revealed to have quit his job and his universe isn't destroyed, which is the biggest and most explicit clue that Miguel is wrong. 3. This one is slightly less obvious and not confirmed, but a person accidently being bit by a spider to become Spider-Man can't be a Canon Event, since Miguel himself wasn't, at least in the comics, he was purposely recreating the powers of the original Spider-Man in his universe, so the idea that there can't be more than one Spider-person in one universe is also wrong.

[@sdbzfan1]

plus its not like Miles wanted to be spiderman, he got bit because Spot brought a spider from a different dimension to that universe, plus the encursion thing makes sense as any spiderperson in the wrong universe without a bracelet starts to glitch out

[@maddoxle276]

Since Gwen came from another universe how is her falling for miles and dying because of it a canon event, since there was no way of them meeting without kingpin opening the portals and stuff

[@zayd4078]

Taking into account Mat's theories and what you said in number 2, if Miguel is 100% right, Gwen's world/universe would've gone poof before she even leaps off her window. 🤔🤣

[@protovision7040]

Also meows morales exists

[@toshironikko]

My problem with this incursion theory is the spider society has hundreds of ppl from different universes in one universe so if an incursion was going to happen it would probably be in that universe

[@trillianmeyer6924]

I actually have a slightly different theory. Anyone else notice that Miguel O'Hara's incursion looked different from Pavitr's 'Incursion'? Miguel's is all bright colors and flashes, but while we only see the last bit from Miguel's universe, Mumbattan's collapse looks very similar to The Spot's, well, spots. It looks more like Pavitr's universe collapse is a side effect or caused by The Spot growing stronger rather than the "canon" being disrupted. And if multiple different universe's spidermen being in the same universe caused an incursion that quickly then Miles' universe would have collapsed before the first movie finished, and we wouldn't have a sequel. And the base's universe would have collapses when Miguel brought in more than one other spider-man, it is still intact, therefore, 3 extra spidermen wouldn't have caused a collapse in the less than an hour we see them in Mumbattan.

[@HawkEyeTS]

The movie's action scenes go by so fast that it's hard to remember the sequence of events at times, but I'm like 99% sure that they go out of their way to show The Spot's extra-dimensional warping looking like it has almost infected the Alchemex building as it is falling toward the bridge, and that obviously happens before Miles "breaks canon" and saves the Captain of the universe. So I think it's pretty clear for that instance that it was entirely The Spot's actions that caused the dimensional hole after the building completely collapsed onto the ground. As for Miguel's incident I immediately thought it looked very unusual when the world was falling apart - in fact it looked to me more like everything in it was despawning, as though a computer was unloading all of its NPCs and buildings. Given that we have already seen comic book worlds, Lego worlds, and the movie SPECIFICALLY calls out Sony's Playstation Spider-Man as another world, would it be that much of a leap to think that Miguel found a world that was effectively a simulation and jumped into it without realizing it? What if the collapse of that world was the entity running the simulation noticing a "virus" had invaded their system and deciding to reset it to clean up the issue? There are plenty of viruses that mask themselves as existing applications, and that's exactly what Miguel was doing in that world, pretending he was someone that had already existed there. As for the incursions theory, I don't know how much I buy into it. If you've read the comic books, you'll know the incursions there don't happen just because someone has entered another universe for too long. I know the MCU likes to deviate heavily on these things, but much like the contradiction of the Spider-Society being on one world without causing trouble, there were a ton of Kangs all in one place at the end of Quantumania. I suspect that we'll find out some external force that the heroes have not recognized yet is behind the incursions, and that all the worlds to fall so far have been unfortunate dominoes in a longer game, rather than the fault of random and often accidental travelers between worlds.

[@zacal84]

S actually thinking the same after it happened.

[@tyrannosaurusbunny]

Matpat said at about 10:40 that Earth 42 has no Spider-Man so it should have collapsed. However, it does have a Spider-Man in Miles, he is just being Spider-Man for the wrong dimension. I mean that he is technically Spider-Man for two different dimensions. Also I think Mumbattan started collapsing immediately because there are set dates for the cannon events in every world.

[@zacharylincoln4129]

I think the Tom Holland Spider-Man technically had two uncle Ben moments. You have Aunt May, but I think the more important one is actually Tony Stark in endgame. If Tony Stark counted toward the Uncle Ben moment, he would definitely fit in a little bit easier with the timeline.

[@katherinejones9591]

good point there

[@EndyMiTson]

Poor MCU Peter, he lose Tony, May, Ben, Zendaya, reputation and probably soon his best friend.

[@voltbeat1133]

And He was dusted 5 years, maybe ITS Like a Stop Button for the Countdown to breakdown

[@JeffStarch]

Toby McGuires best role kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmm4Z6aOiMiFe8U

[@pablobuquet2534]

​@@EndyMiTsonhe didn't lose zendaya yet, but emotionally he did

[@nothingbut2465]

Does Mat not remember the multiple spidermen trotting around Miles' universe in the first film? My immediate thought was that each spider-man has similar canon events, theyre not always the same people or at the same time but they do have to happen at a specific time in each universe. I think the canon events are more linked to certain emotions and feelings that the spider people need to experience rather than just things happening. I could definitely explain better if anyone cares

[@shanemoran4145]

its incursions not cannon events, as seen in what if, if something is cannon its impossible to prevent even with intervention.

[@dsur5547]

But earth 42 doesn’t even have a Spider-Man meaning that canon events literally can’t happen and yet it’s fine. I don’t think matpat is necessarily right but there is more to canon events than Miguel says

[@nothingbut2465]

@@shanemoran4145 but an incursion didn't happen in any of the universes we've seen despite multiple spidermen spending days even weeks in other universes

[@nothingbut2465]

@dsur5547 perhaps because there isnt and has never been a spiderman in universe 42 there are no canon events that need to happen and thus no problems. The way I was thinking was that because the spider that was supposed to bite someone in that universe stopped existing there then rather than collapsing the canon, it moved its canon over to miles universe, and because all of the things that were supposed to happen in universe 42 now need to happen in miles' universe the canon is still okay, which is why I think his universe didn't collapse after spiderman died even though him dying wasn't part of the canon in that universe. Sorry if its a bit convoluted, but I'm more inclined to believe Miguel is letting on most or all of the truth rather than lying to every spiderman in every universe. Matpat may have a point, but I think the incursion theory falls apart quite quickly

[@igorscrok9403]

Technically the incursion was happening before our very own eyes. The moment the super collider was turned back on, the buildings from the other universes started coming over to Miles' universe. The canon events do have a need to happen, but the incursions can happen as well. The reason the incursions haven't been happening so often was because of the wrist band / watches that Miguel gave to the other spider-men/women/thing that is in the spider society because they could alter their dna/existence to match the one in their current universe. In the first movie, none of the spider-people that came to Miles' universe had those so they all left those "footprints" and the incursions started to happen by the end of the movie so they could take weeks to happen or need a way to happen, that way being the super-collider.

[@sahitdodda5046]

My only problem with this theory is the spider citadel's current base of operation hasn't had an incursion yet despite having hundreds of spidermen, and that they've been doing this for a while, yet haven't figured out that this causes incursions (if you have this many spidermen crossing over and causing incursions everytime they do anything, its not going to take long to figure it out.) Maybe the watches stop incursions the same way they stop glitching, which makes sense since when Miles saves captain Singh, he's not wearing a watch, so he has a large footprint in that universe without the watch. (or perhaps spot increases the rate of incursion since he has portals to many dimensions

[@LegoDarthVader2152]

the watches stopping incursions was a theory of mine too. But my big theory? The whole incursion thing doesn't exist. There aren't any incursions, Just the TVA deciding that a universe has gone too far and just erases it and replacing it with a new one where things happen as they were meant to. That's my theory. That the TVA is behind all the destruction

[@thedudecalledalan9095]

if the watch stops incursions then how did Miguel live in his other universe without glitching, he had to have been wearing a watch to prevent himself from glitching he might have made a second better version of watches, but if he doesn't know what incursions are, why/ how would he add an anti-incursion device into his new watches

[@thedudecalledalan9095]

the fact that Mat doesn't even mention or acknowledge what you said, proves that this theory was made to bandwagon off the movie's success and he clearly wants to wrap the video in a nice bow. and sweep any inconsistencies under the rug

[@LegoDarthVader2152]

@@thedudecalledalan9095 I actually made an entire essay on why I think the TVA is behind all the incursions and reality collapses. Wanna read it?

[@RadzPrower]

I'm pretty sure 2099 isn't as misguided as the movie portrays him. I'm guessing in the final film it comes out he's kept the rest of the Spider Society in the dark and his actions are much more intentional and evil than it appears. Not sure what that goal is, but certainly seems like he's up to something.

[@lizzie9444]

Remember spider pig? He bit a radioactive spider. It didn't bit him

[@Astraydas]

I hope Miguel has a character arc, I really like his design and I think there could definitely be more good backstory content to see. I think it would be really cool to see him redeme himself and let people in a little.

[@madhumadhu-pb2yz]

Nice

[@anishmarathe2540]

fr I am bulking because of him ☠️

[@nhogan84]

Miguel is one of those "bad guys" that isn't evil, just misguided. He truly thinks he's doing the best for the many at the expense of the few, but as MatPat pointed out, he's working off limited data and emotional response.

[@Astraydas]

@@nhogan84 agreed!

[@runa7618]

i like his design too if yk what i mean

[@Furonanator139]

Something felt very off about Miguel and his logic so I was happy to see this come out short after I watched it. There's a ton of things that could have caused that universe to burn but he just assumed. Plus what we see happen to his universe, the glowing rainbow dust people turn into is completely different from any incursion we see even the one in Mumbattan. I think he went to a universe where Thanos Snapped away half the pop and then time traveled and destroyed the entire universe like he promised in endgame

[@d1boundkj]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4qUip1_p9N1jsU Finally it’s here🤠

[@MinecraftNinjas1]

My only problem with this theory is the first movie: With Peter B., Gwen, Spiderham, Noir, and Penny arriving in Mile's home universe, shouldn't that have caused an incursion as well?

[@rod24771]

i believe it was only for a few days that they were in the universe, the damage caused In the scenes at alchemax and Aunt Mays Home were minor enough and didn't leave too much of a footprint, and either way miles ends up finishing things with kingpin in the end. either that or they hadn't had all of Across the Spiderverse and Beyond Fully written uet

[@anferno804]

Although we did see signs of an incursion. In the later half of Into the Spiderverse, the Spiders try to stop the collider. During the chaos, Miles 1610, Peter B., and Gwen see what appeared to be other universes coming through the collider portal. They said, and I am paraphrasing, "It looks like our universes are coming to us." Looks like Kingpin's super collider just sped up the incursion process.

[@eliasbranch5383]

I think that the device keep the spidermen safe from occursian by allowing them to act seperate from their universes. (Which is what solves the glitching.) What stopped the incursion with the colider is that the device pulled things out of other universes, and seperated them from the universe they were a part of. Although that prosses was still a bit much for the atoms of the original universe to handle, hence the glitching. The reason that it would now occur for miles and miguel, is that A. Miguel traveled from his universe to another before learning how to make an autonomous leap. B Miles jumped through the gateway. Both crossed through without really being seperated from their original universe. Another possibly to leave open is that occursions don't actually occur within the Spiderverse system, and they only happen with in the MCU's Dr. Strange's multiverse system. Since right now Cannon events are what is believed to be destroying the universe, as part of the breaking away from the web, I wonder if this is what causes "fixed points" in time seen in what if.

[@van-hieuvo8208]

@@rod24771 That's what I'm wondering about this whole incursion thing, is that how big is a "footprint" supposed to be to trigger universal collapse. The final battle at Alchemax, I'd argue, should've left a large "footprint," given how it resulted in everything that goes down in Across the Spider-verse.

[@SatisfactionedEdits]

no way home as well right

[@TheItalianMafia]

4:21 I also think he's wrong about Miles's dad having to die for it to be his canon event, if his uncle already died in Spiderman Into the Spiderverse then his father doesn't have to die

[@zurban4313]

Mat also didn’t mention the fact that (at least in the comics) Miguel O’Hara was never bitten by a radioactive spider, as well as Ben Reilly and Jessica Drew, which is another hole in the idea that every spider person needs to experience that canon event

[@blackmanwithcomputer]

Not all events are the same.

[@thefnafdetective]

⁠@@blackmanwithcomputer Ok but there really aren’t many variations to “Getting bit by a spider” Miguel had his DNA experimented on. Ben Riley is a clone and was basically *born* as Spider-Man These aren’t variations of the spider bite event. They are completely different. And if the variation in a canon event can be THAT wide, then the whole concept of canon events wouldn’t exist.

[@theglitch5386]

I find it funny that Matpat used all the cannon events that could be opposed by 'Timing doesn't matter' while leaving out the event that was called out by name as necessary, will obviously never happen to certain 'cannon' spider-men, and is arguably the most noticeable discrepancy in the film.

[@blackmanwithcomputer]

@@thefnafdetective Japanese Spider-Man was given a power ranger morpher. Pavitr was blessed by a Spider god. There's not a lot, but there's others. The canon events are just variations of events that are similar amongst all of them, but he didn't every event is the same for all of them. It's a meta thing, because most of all the different variants are based off the OG Peter's storylines. Miguel would obviously have no idea why these things happen to them, but he knows it does because he's been studying the multiverse for over a year obsessively trying to find out why that universe was destroyed. Countless hours of observation and interactions have had him come to the conclusion that certain events are too important to be stopped. Maybe that version of his daughter was supposed to become a Spider-Person, but her father needed to die? Hopefully we'll find out in Beyond, because I find it interesting that two major antagonists, Miguel and Jess, clearly didn't have their origins and backgrounds clearly explained. Whereas everyone else has been explained.

[@thefnafdetective]

@@blackmanwithcomputer Those are not variations of being bit by a spider. They’re so ridiculously different that it’s stupid to say that they’re the same as being bit by a spider. If being BIT by a SPIDER is a canon event, then all of these examples break canon. None of these spiders were bit.

[@Derpinator01]

After hearing more about how Miguel's presence could destabilize the universes he wants to save, I'm starting to imagine the next movie's climax having Miguel die in the battle against the Spot, since he's the *captain* of his own Spider-*Police* who sees Miles as just *a kid* and in his own hi-tech vampire-y way is *close to Spider-Man* in ability and morals, even if he lacks the grounding of the Peter variants in the multiverse.

[@liberpolo5540]

This is probably my new favorite theory..

[@jessg1318]

Did anyone else notice that Miguel replacing his alternate self is kinda odd if Mile's is technically the first anomaly? If Mile's is the first, that would mean Miguel is aware of it, but he still chose to replace another Miguel from a different universe? Why would he do that if he knew the risk? That would therefore mean that MIGUEL was the first anomaly, not Miles.

[@DarkxxStorm]

I am kinda confuse on that too, what happened first did Miguel travelled a different dimension or did miles got bitten first,

[@homiealladin7340]

@@DarkxxStorm most likely miguel travelling since miles hasnt been spider man for long maybe a year or 2 and miguel couldnt have set up the whole entirety of Spider Society in 1-2 years. So Miguel is the first anomaly

[@devaryansharma3152]

Spiderman 2099 has started recruiting spider ppl in into the spider verse post credit scene, that means he was the first anomaly

[@x0Fang0x]

Aight, it's probably that miles was the first but Miguel wasn't aware of it. He only made the spider society after his mistake. So he could have traced the causes of anomalies and found out about miles after.

[@homiealladin7340]

@@x0Fang0x @DarkxxStorm most likely miguel travelling since miles hasnt been spider man for long maybe a year or 2 and miguel couldnt have set up the whole entirety of Spider Society in 1-2 years. So Miguel is the first anomaly

[@tickytickytango5634]

With how many holes they must be punching in that universe to get Spider-Men to and from it, I'm surprised the Spider Society hasn't been incursion'd

[@rlgfracture3397]

the only problem i see with this theory, and it is major, is that all these spiderpeople are constantly staying in O'Hara's world as a base of operations, meaning though they might not be doing massive damage, except for the chase scene, collectively they should be leaving such a massive footprint that an incursion should have already occurred at spider HQ

[@christinewhoyt]

Yeah exactky, or somehow the watch thing prevents it somehow.

[@sildarmillion]

Yes, I came here to say this.

[@mohamedabdelhalim21]

Seeing how the watch prevents them from glitching across different dimensions and that it warns them about those "canon events" , it probably plays a part in preventing incursions.

[@eisuke4966]

The watches prevent glitches. I'm not sure how they work exactly but due to how they match the character they're owned by or made by, (Shown when Hobie makes one for Gwen so Miguel can't track her) I think it allows you to travel dimensions, prevents you from glitching, but more importantly, stablizes the spider man and simulates them being in their own universe. That or the 2099 World of the Spider Society works off of the same technology the watches do just larger scale

[@sildarmillion]

@@eisuke4966 @mohamedabdelhalim21 But then what about in the first movie when all those Spider people were in Miles' universe without watches?

[@isaiahthomas5885]

YES. I’ve been waiting for someone to point out how incursions and canon events are eerily similar in how they are explained. the MCU has been having fun playing with different words that are similar in meaning, but being used by different people, in the end it all ties together

[@JustDoingReviews]

You know canon events also sound like Absolute points where if you stop a specific event that is caused by multiverse Tampering the universe ends while here’s what Incursions are. When two Earths collide destroying one or both of the universes and you can see the Earth in the sky definitely not the same as canon events.

[@isaiahthomas5885]

@@JustDoingReviews yup that’s another one that sounds similar. I didn’t say they are the exact same, but all the above are universe ending events caused by a minor change.

[@JustDoingReviews]

@@isaiahthomas5885 I guess so

[@XemnasXiiiorder]

I was waiting for someone to mention that pavitr showed up at the end of the movie

[@sephence]

big problem is that Gwen basically disproves both canon events and incursions her ultimately saving her dad by her reveal making him quit completely disproves canon events destroying realities and it's also pointed out that she's been in Hobbie's universe for extended periods of time as basically a 2nd home and yet his universe hasn't been destroyed by incursions also the fact that Miguel's Earth literally houses his entire Spider Society at all times (for at least around a year or so) and yet there's no incursion, which even if it's not been long enough, the sheer amount of Spider-people would more than make up for the pressure exerted on the universe it's more likely it's the result of some mysterious yet to be revealed 3rd thing, maybe having to do with the colliders and The Spot since the visuals are extremely similar, while the concept of incursions aren't gonna play much of a role if any (maybe due to how MCU multiverse travel is fundamentally different and in itself has various different ways to travel through it)

[@ethannazareno2246]

Pretty sure that incursions aren't really "definite" events like there's a chance of then happening but that chance varies on how big of a "footprint" you left in that world. Since gwen is just a single person staying in a diffeent world we can say that the chance of an incursion happening is very low and we can attribute Miguel's universe not having an incursion purely because of its secrecy and luck/chance.

[@Bomslaer]

​@@hamzahnurreez8420 that was never stated anywhere it's just that the dark hold is the easiest way of doing it because in the comic they have happened before without the dark hold

[@EmilHətəmov]

When Miguel fights Miles on top of the train, Miguel's words "You're the first anomaly" were about the spider that bit Miles, and he was talking to the spider.

[@taylorschwamb2314]

This makes me feel so vindicated, because after the movie I kept thinking that Miguel hadn't actually stopped a canon event (his death), or that hadn't caused the collapse, but rather, his overall presence in the universe, changing every detail and shifting his glitches onto the wider universe, which is kind what this theory is, if a little to the left.

[@Icepetal01]

A few other points on Miguel’s canon vents theory: 1. It seems like Pavitr’s universe falling apart could actually be attributed to the Spot (imo). The hole that appears is rather reminiscent of his holes and it appears not long after he made himself more powerful/blew up the Alchemax building/however you want to describe that moment. Also, given point 2 (see below), this feels more likely. 2. How does an anomaly cause a canon event? If what happened in Miles’ universe hadn’t happened, Pavitr wouldn’t have had the chance to have that canon event, or at the very least not in the way he did in the movie (if Miles hadn’t stopped it). I’m not sure if I’m expressing this well, but my point is essentially that if Miles and the Spot are anomalies, how did they cause a canon event (or what would’ve been a canon event)? How does something that was never supposed to happen cause something that is always supposed to happen? It just doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense-at least, to me it doesn’t. (Again, I’m not sure if I phrased this well, so I apologize for that in advance.) 3. Most of this video was focused on Miguel potentially causing an incursion, and while I’m not sure I agree with that theory, it does make a bit more sense (though it doesn’t account for the spider headquarters universe, though maybe the bands they all wear prevent them?). I think that it’s honestly a bit strange of Miguel to assume that him “preventing” or “reversing” a canon event is what made the universe collapse when he was quite literally in the wrong universe. Him being in the wrong universe and messing with who is “alive” and “dead” seems like a much better cause than there being a few events that happen to every Spider-person that cannot be disrupted.

[@Kirbo_TheMexican]

These theories make so much sense then all the others that I’ve read in the comments

[@aimeekelsey4822]

These theories are what I've been thinking since I saw the movie and I've seen them literally no where else.

[@emmanuelfuentes3650]

Fun fact, the directors of miles' movies confirmed that Miguel's line about miles as Spider-Man not supposed to exist is a stand in for all the spiderfans who say that miles isnt Spider-Man. Miles is Spider-Man and the directors wanted to tell people that anyone can be Spider-Man and i think that detail is pretty neat

[@kevinw712]

in other words, the incel brigade is somewhere throwing this movie into the whole "wokeness" pot lol (I'm assuming plenty of them are already bitching about the mother in THE FLASH being of what seems hispanic descent)

[@justice8718]

@@kevinw712 They literally accept Miguel as a Spiderman. The logic against them is fucking trash in every perspective.

[@YoushallnotPASS-go1rv]

When Miguel is explaining that a chief officer must die so the canon stays safe he didn’t know that in Gwens earth her dad quit from being a captain therefore as long as you don’t break the canon the canon doesn’t need to be in place meaning the canon doesn’t have to happen

[@maxantubegaming]

What's cool is that I think Across the Spider-verse and beyond the Spider-verse is setting up a new era for Spiderman as a character, so from now on anyone is gonna be able to be Spiderman in comics/movies, no matter who they are. It's probably also gonna make it so writers are allowed to go crazy with new stories, changing up the events or maybe even writing completely new backstories for completely new Spidermen.

[@RED_XLR]

Yea, but too much of that might be bad too, specially in the long run.

[@kitnal4143]

idk at that point you can just write a new super hero yk?

[@randomnessltd]

The whole multiverse thing sort of has that covered.

[@WuMyth]

If everyone is Spiderman... then no one is...

[@adrianna1227]

Perhaps the canon events” aren’t just “deaths” but maybe they are lessons and things that shape whoever Spider-Man is to be a better version of themself and get the necessary knowledge n moral compass+whatever else, to be a good Spider-Man/hero. So maybe the deaths aren’t necessary and miles can save his father. Dunno, just a theory lol

[@TheQuietTyper]

Yes, I agree. I think that Mile's big lesson isn't supposed to be "with great power comes great resposibility" it's that anyone can be a hero but likewise anyone can be a villian. That's what Uncle Aaron's death means. Two brothers, one becomes a cop the other a criminal. What made the difference? LIkely choice and support.

[@ked49]

@@TheQuietTyperhe learned that one too, “With great ability comes great accountability.” The Aron lesson was “you can’t always save everyone” as Spider-Ham said Peter’s death was “anyone can be Spider-Man”

[@stevekirkpatrick1612]

It makes you wonder what happened to uncle Benz that made a spider out of Peter Parked Car. I say this without an encyclopedic knowledge of comic books, I dare say similar to a minimum 90% of the audience.

[@VaporAR4]

One thing that sets me off about the cannon is that when miles gets teleported to earth 42 Gwen says "do you know for certain what happens when he breaks the cannon" and Miguel says "do you want to find out" implying that he does not know what happens if he breaks the cannon another piece of evidence is that in the building at the beginning of the movie they all stop the helicopter which would have crushed captain Stacy meaning that they disrupted a cannon and Gwen left for the spider-society her dad quit as we find out when she gets sent back home so they avoided the cannon without any problems

[@amazing_gator]

I had the start of this theory but couldn’t get it quite right. This really clears it up for me

[@TGCPhilip]

Mumbattan "collapsed" differently. That was clearly The Spot's work. While the universe Miguel supposedly destroyed collapsed the same way the universes converge and glitch in Into The Spiderverse, because of the Collider, so that universe most likely collapsed due to the Collider

[@gerstein03]

My thoughts exactly. Mumbattan isn't suffering an incursion it's suffering from Spot which explains why Miguel's universe didn't implode from all the Spider people tearing through the city

[@ShadwRavn]

@JackHaIrowworthless

[@JaloopyPotato]

I have a question, if just ONE PERSON is a MAJOR THREAT than how come so many spider people can enter the "Spider Society" universe without an incursion?

[@dafilmqueen556]

Just another way to prove the dude is wrong. Found families for life!

[@joshuahecht6866]

Bracelet It might have been called Incursion Preventor He already has the solution. He just needs to see it.

[@Godzilladreamer]

​@joshuahecht6866 So what about Into the Spiderverse? Nobody had bracelets, and they were there for at a minimum of 3 days days.

[@M_k-zi3tn]

​@@Godzilladreamer yeah but then again, there's no timeline as to how long it takes for the world to start falling apart. Just cause it happens immediately in Pavitr's world doesn't mean it happens immediately for every other earth. Otherwise Miguel woudn't have even gotten a chance to play with his daughter as we see him do

[@hamzabeg6882]

​@@dafilmqueen556 you good?

[@elenadirectorofmiiss7942]

My fan theory: Miguel knows he is the original anomaly, not Miles; he wants to blame Miles but he is to blame after trying to replace his dead doppelganger. That was the first domino and Miguel has been hiding this fact and trying to fix the damage. His anger is at himself, but he's blaming Miles. Miguel is the ORIGINAL ANOMALY.

[@WebbedManiac]

This can be easily discredited though. Remember the post-credit scene of the first movie? Miguel makes the first dimension travel watch AFTER the events of the first movie, which he's literally watching on screen. Therefore, Miguel CANNOT be the original anamoly since the spider that bit Miles crossed universes first.

[@IAmCrystalPalm]

I feel like Miguel probably sees himself in Miles and doesn't want him to make the same mistakes he's made

[@Imimurwalls283]

Wait didn’t he say that he was the first anomalies? Miles asked “how do you know what an anomaly looks like?” And Miguel said “… because I was the first” or smth

[@leo.solosv]

YOOO TRUE TBH

[@thematmannn]

I thought something similar to this after miles line "claws? Are you even spider man?" It just stuck out to me

[@Eepy_Onyx]

There's also one morething you didn't realize. According to a Screenrant, Miguel would technically wouldn't be a "Spider-Man" either! He was never bitten, instead he was genetically modified by himself, without a spider bite involved. If being bitten by a radioactive spider is required to be a Spider-Man, then he technically isn't a Spider-Man. Even if he believed it was the "correct way" he wouldn't fit into his own believed Canon.