Final Fantasy Tactics & Combat Initiative Systems | Game Design Guide

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

Lol, thought I found a cool new game design channel to binge watch... 1 vid XD

[@TheGoblinoid]

Wait, is this it? A single video, three years ago? Am I missing something? I would totally support this channel on patreon.

[@tasoganedude]

They have Ko-fi.

[@Arbeta10000]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJWnXneKe7iqos0 There is technically this as well, but, yeah, unfortunate

[@zackolsen]

This is a lot better than I was expecting from a channel with 1 video. Good job.

[@Spacecookie-]

A game you should try out if you ever get the chance is Vandal Hearts. It came out the year before final fantasy tactics, and it's utterly beloved of everyone who plays it. You'll see that in how difficult it is to buy a cheap, second-hand copy of it anywhere. FFT is very, very similar, but Vandal Hearts was released the year before in 1996. I loved that game.

[@pedrodesouza1993]

FINALY SOMEONE SAID THE NAMES OF THE TURN BASED SYSTEMS Thank you Sir!

[@Pabloparsil]

Dude the one video you made has 30k views and you don't continue with the channel??? Nuts! Great video btw, I love FFT so much

[@JTMC93]

Oddly enough I was working on a Tactical RPG & a Miniature Wargame that uses a system like Mouseguard. One issue I found was getting it to actually flow well while also having randomized chance of success. That said I love FFT & Tactics Ogre for their system. A lot of early Tactics style games used the multi-activation alternating turns system. It really made things kinda drag on while the FFT/TO system made it feel more dynamic.

[@aalangley6]

I would enjoy the deep dive version of this video, though this was a good appetizer :)

[@Bradley_Lute]

I hear you. There is a lot going on in the game and it is great to unpeel it layer by layer. This is my first go around and I'm just into chapter two. It is my first strategy rpg as well so it has been a slow learning experience. I really wish I was playing on a tablet instead of a phone.

[@knucklehead5322]

I was just browsing for new stuff to watch, and I didn't really understand what you talked about, but I really enjoyed it. Your presentation was very seamless and focused, and kept me hooked. Great work man

[@CameronAB122]

was looking for vids about SRPG mechanics because ive been thinking about making one. Subbed. hope to see more videos soon!

[@nirvv84]

Is this the only video you made?...you did a great job and should continue

[@bikzimusmaximus5250]

One I believe you missed: Reverse initiative order from the CWoD games. Everyone rolls 1d10, then add their initiative modifier derives from dex+wits, then you call actions from slowest to fastest, and then execute those actions from fastest to slowest. It works really well because it means slower characters don't have the benefit of being later in the turn to react to what other characters are doing, something generally considered an advantage of being faster than other people. Downside is that it can be slow compared to more streamlined systems, so it works better if you can either automate the process or only have a little combat in your game.

[@SamFishback]

There was a table-top roleplaying game called "deadEarth." The Action Point system was similar to the original Fallouts, but in this case, turns were taken by the number of AP an action took. So if a player wanted to unholster a gun and fire, it wouldn't happen until after the opponent jabbed you in the throat, leg swept you, and elbowed your face. Because your action took 6 AP while each of his only took 2.

[@idle.observer]

Thank you for this great content btw, I can't believe I didn't see it for 6 years...

[@WarDankEagle]

Excellent debut video! The topic is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately. The concept of having actions from opposing characters take place simultaneously, as you described in the last system (Mouse Guard), is particularly fascinating.

[@Eemi_Seppala]

Anima: Beyond Fantasy (tabletop RPG) uses a system, where each player rolls a new initiative each turn, during which things like equipment and what they are about to do that turn effects their Ini roll. Then everyone declares their actions before the turn begins and decides on how many attacks they are going to make during next turn. Every action and attack you declare gives you penalties to everything you roll that turn, but you can only make the actions you've declared and the number of attacks you said is the maximum number of attacks you can make, including attacks of opportunity and counter attacks. Aside from the main actions there are also "Passive actions" which are things like drawing weapon, speaking, taking few steps etc. that can be performed without declaring them and do not cause player to take penalties. It's a really interesting system where you can fiddle around with what you are going to do and makes all of the actions matter, because you need to think a bit ahead of time what might happen each round because initiative order is constantly changing and if you want to do something big, it's better if you dedicate your whole turn for doing it rather than jump and swing around before doing it.

[@lolmonkyboi]

This was really good, wish you made more :(

[@mygameproduction3068]

Good presentation on FFT game system. Not many people remembers it nowadays (which is kinda of sad). Anyway, I like tell you that besides FFT, there were also few more games which followed similar system (as mentioned here) like Vagrant Story (a very good game) and Vandal Hearts (tactics game).

[@KeyboardKrieger]

You convinced me to use the FFT approach. I'm currently doing research for one of my future games 😁

[@BlueLightningSky]

This is pretty cool and you probably could have summarized the FFT system with "ATB but with distinct turns." It's definitely my favorite way to do turn based because it lets the "speed stat" be on the spotlight. Compared to SIAS, it allows multiple turns per character and compared to MAAS it still has a back and forth element to it because your opponent could also have a fast character. And compared to the ATB system which never really justified itself since the game was still not real time, there's a lot less ambiguous situations of whose turn is it and waiting for ATB bars to fill. But as a disadvantage you can't let a unit be idle and then let another of your unit go first. So if you have a combo where one character has to go first, you need the proper speeds. I don't think I've played a game with this system that allows you to keep a unit idle but let them insert themselves between turns because they technically have full CT. Even FFT reduces your CT if you choose to wait. And I get why there's no video game like this, it would be very annoying having to go back to this character each time since he technically hasn't take his turn but this sounds doable on table top where passing priority in games like MtG is easy so maybe there's a table top game that does this?

[@duttdits]

This video was so good. I'm developing a ttrpg, and when I saw this, I was stoked to learn some concepts and evolve my thinking. 1 video...💀

[@jeremywright4100]

Awesome video. Highly appreciate you referencing tabletop!

[@Goddamnlackofnames]

Really hope to see more videos from you guys in future!

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Thank you! We are absolutely working on new content (though, much much slower than we had planned) - we'll hopefully get into a regular rhythm of releasing content at some point soon :)

[@barbadosx]

@@gamedesignguide4401 Well this comment did not age well.

[@LinziOfficial]

So professional!! How is this your first video ever???

[@joshuaesmero1464]

Subbed. Keep doing a good job, I'm always on the look-out for game design vids.

[@computer__eyez]

Thorough breakdown on design. Thank you for the mental invigoration. Subscribed!

[@pvrhye]

I would presume the front units go faster to avoid units with low movement getting stuck unable to do anything behind a wall of allies. The CT system is my least favorite part of FFT. Characters scale in speed but spells don't scale in level at all. With nothing to mitigate that, players mostly just change to instant abilities at high levels. I love Burning Wheel also :) You seem like the kind of person I would like in real life.

[@vikorovstock2432]

Bro just made one banger of a video and then vanished. I haven't been this sad sense Spongebob Skin Theory.

[@psinjo]

I would really love to see a more detailed breakdown of the different nuances of this system and how it compares to FFTA, Having never had a playstation growing up, my only real intro to the series was FFTA, i played it so many times, I didn't even know there was a predecessor and it looks like it has some very particular differences, such as the charge/wait system and would like to hear you talk about the benefits to each difference

[@GCEzel]

What happened to this channel?

[@MatthewPalaje]

Great video and super informative! I've just started developing a tactics style game for VR and I'd love more videos like this.

[@zoundbiestudio4021]

And how's this going!

[@anthonyleyva81]

Well done! To be honest, I am just here for the Tidus pronunciation argument 😂😂

[@gamedesignguide4401]

GET OUT. ... just kidding :) -AffinityChris

[@anthonyleyva81]

Seriously great work! I am very excited to see where this goes.

[@CMWeiss66]

Anthony Leyva nerds.

[@geomancer64]

Amazing video to start of this new series. FFT is also my favourite game of all time, so I really appreciated it. I would like to give some constructive criticism though. A lot of your points seem to fly by and, even while being familiar with most of the ideas, I found it hard to keep up. I would suggest slowing down a bit, or adding some extra text to the screen. Abstracted, animated examples would be even more amazing, but I'm not sure you guys have the time or resources for that. Anyways, I'm looking forward to more in this series!

[@nathansanders680]

Hey, thanks for the awesome feedback! I was a concerned the script would get a bit convoluted. More visuals and text would probably have helped clear things up so we'll keep that in mind for the next episode!

[@DearRomek]

MORE VIDEOS PLEASE ❤️❤️❤️

[@christopherthibeault7502]

What happened to the Channel? I checked and there's one video up and no further activity. Was this Channel purged or something?

[@ivancito7790]

Please make more videos! This channel is amazing.

[@Omnibus4Everyone]

I just found you. Great video. FFT was a masterpiece; as was Tactics Ogre.

[@ahnmichael1484]

Hey, this is a lovely talking through of a game + system I love dearly, but please please slow down - you are clearly trying to cover a lot of material and I think that pacing would help with being able to grasp the concepts. I am someone deeply familiar with nearly all of what you talked about and it was still difficult for me to follow, so I'm certain someone new to this and really needing the information would leave confused in some parts. I think if you prioritise depth over quantity of topics/points, this will be one of the greatest tutorial series(?) on these topics. :') Thanks for making this available!

[@ZrobGM]

Informative video...sad I didn't see more Game design talks on your channel though :(

[@gamedesignguide4401]

We're gearing up to get a regular release schedule - there should be some new stuff in just a couple weeks :)

[@mikejin2182]

@@gamedesignguide4401 love your video! Hope could see more soon

[@r1pfake521]

@@gamedesignguide4401 2020 (almost 2021) this randomly showed up on my front page, are there still plans for new videos?

[@josephsilberstein1577]

high quality video that i happened upon. would watch more.

[@DuskMindAbyss]

I never played the original Tactics, was a huge fan of FFTA in the GBA and gave the DS one a try or two. not a bad idea to pick that up once im done with my current runs of Pokemon Conquest and Fire Emblem 7

[@hellayeproductions6739]

This is a really good video. You deserve more subscribers.

[@swiftfox2010]

I liked this a lot! You should definitely check out the initiative system for the Octopath Traveler on Switch. Terrible name, clever battle system. ...whats this business about buying you a coffee?

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Ooh, Octopath isn't out yet, is it? I've been excited to get my hands on it, so we'll definitely check that one out once it's available. And about the coffee - we have a page up on Ko-fi, which is just a donation service to buy us a coffee if you like what you see! It's no big deal if folks don't want to donate, but it's always nice to get a fresh cup of joe for our work :) ko-fi.com/affinityarchives -AffinityChris

[@anthonyleyva81]

The buying a coffee, is a different way to donate money to groups that you like! It's pretty cool!

[@anthonyleyva81]

Also what makes the battle system, clever? I would be interested to know! 😃

[@gaussminigun]

Nope, you're are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye

[@Tatlreach]

If I'm understanding the FFT system correctly, it's actually similar to a hugely popular modern game series. Divinity: Original Sin. It was one of those huge crowd funding successes. The dev's got so much money and loved the game so much, they re-released an HD version, adding complete voice over and balancing. Div: OS 2 just released on PC and it's all the rage FOR GOOD REASON. Did I mention it's multiplayer? In Divinity, Action Point gain-per-turn is based on that character's speed. Movement & Abilities cost Action Points. Turns come regularly and their order is set by initiative at the start but, like FFT, you sometimes get that effect of "now you get a HUGE turn" because some characters have a lot of speed. It gets even deeper because, you can take light actions 1 turn to bank Action Points for the next. Or You can even Delay a character's turn to reorder the initiative.

[@nathansanders680]

Hey man, great response. I haven't had the pleasure of playing either of the Divinity's yet but I heard pretty good things. From what I've watched the game seems to focus on how many action points you get rather than when people actually get to go. FFT is very different in that you only get a move action and attack action with no persistant resource carrying over (AP). That said, the system reminds soooo much of breath of Fire 5: dragon Quarter. You're characters would have AP on their turns as well (like 60-100 or something like that) and you used those to move around as well as do actions. In addition you could bank the AP for next round and could have up to double your starting total. Very very different game in most respects, but I feel the AP system is similar.

[@geomancer64]

I also wanted to clarify the difference. In Divinity, every is in a set turn order. If Alice has a higher initiative stat than Bob, Alice will ALWAYS go before Bob. The action point system simply determines how much they can do on their turn. If Alice uses all of her AP to attack and move and cast a spell, she will be left with very few on her next turn. While Bob can save up his AP and cast a giant spell on his 2nd turn. In FFT, every character has a speed stat, and (let's call it) an initiative counter. Every clock tick, that character's initiative counter increases according to their speed stat. Once their initiative counter hits 100, they get to act. No matter how fast they reach 100, they can only do 2, 1, or 0 actions on their turn. Then the game resets their initiative counter accordingly (back to 0 if they did 2 actions, 20 if they did 1, 60 if 0). The key difference is in WHEN character's get to take their turn. In Divinity, a character is put into initiative order, and EVERYONE gets a turn. In FFT, it only depends on how fast you rack up to 100. If Alice has speed 50, and Bob has speed 20, Alice could act twice in a row before Bob.

[@user-uq6po8dv6i]

The clock is god. It always has been, always will be. Every frame is a turn, and if you don't move, you've wasted a turn.

[@megabus1590]

Great video!! Why is it the only one?

[@idle.observer]

13:02 No way! I've been working on this system on my prototype for 1.5 months. I thought I was the first one who came up with that idea. Huge discouragement I'm facing 🤦‍♂

[@tommysteinberg4802]

Really good video. To bad he didn't make anymore

[@Bitholeous]

i need more of this pleaseee

[@kupskiarts]

more video please? ^_^ this one was interesting to watch but see that it is really old so hope you get to it and make some more...

[@badradish2116]

subscribed only to see zero other videos :'(

[@AnthromancerOfficial]

This video is amazing

[@ThunderGodCid]

Not going to mention the fun math of Dancer vs Bard speed manipulation?

[@DungeonMasterElite]

Try shadowrun rpg 2nd or 3rd edition. It has a initiative mechanic that rewards quicker characters.

[@andrewfranklin5949]

Please make more content!

[@anubislee36]

Very helpful and entertaining.

[@epuidS]

awesome video!

[@anthonyleyva81]

What I would be interested in knowing, although not totally related to FFT, what do you think could be transformed in Banner Saga's initiative system to make it more interesting. I am a huge fan of both these games, but I was never a big fan on Banner Saga's initiative, which I feel is so important in a tactical RPG.

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Hmm, that's an interesting thought - arguably, the initiative system in The Banner Saga was intentionally simple, for the sake of focusing on the core system - the health = strength combat design. Were they to go the route of not forcing combat actions to alternate between sides, the game could quickly become unbalanced, allowing players (and potentially enemies) to go down a winning streak, killing foes so fast that they never get a chance to act. That said, I do agree that there's something more that they could have done - and we get a taste of that with the "last man standing" scenario. I think one area that would be a safe place to start is to incorporate initiative modifications through the "wait" function - this could allow players to plan for a string of attacks, working in conjunction with the formation mechanics - potentially offering a tactical system with some extra depth. It'd take a lot of re-balancing to make that work, but that's probably where I'd start. :) -AffinityChris

[@anthonyleyva81]

That is a fair thought. I feel like banner saga at its core is about its narrative, so maybe they wanted to streamline that initiative process.

[@levelwithme8535]

Does anyone know the game showing at 3:55?

[@OverusedBrush]

Could you tell me what game at 4:00?

[@Danimally]

Keep the good work

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Thanks! :)

[@Danimally]

i also suscribed, is hard to find yt channel about game-design/industry, most of them are "gaming channels", ugh

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. There's some good channels out there, but its tough to find more than the handful. That's partly why we made this show - hoping that we'll get more people in the KZbin game design space! -AffinityChris

[@jonathansoulard9252]

What is the game at 6:40? It looks clean

[@hyugacirsei3377]

Yeah, I'm curious too...

[@fernandesh.m.5504]

Breath of Fire 4(PS1)

[@gosuninjax2]

u guys have a new channel?

[@vicentesantiago2681]

vandal hearts 2 had a simultaneous turn battle system.

[@r0flcopter]

What do you think of having a visual indicator showing who was about to go? It's basically like a time-based system like in FF7/8/9, or more recently, Child of Light, where a bar fills up, except it's not in real time, it's in turns. Dunno if i made any sense there lol

[@nathansanders680]

Awesome question. I know that earlier FF's had an active gauge where the character would be able to act once the bar filled up. Later they allowed players to use the "wait" system instead of active, where the game would stop when the bar filled up and gave the player time to think about their actions instead of rushing to pick the right thing. These bars filled up based on a speed stat as well so as the fight dragged on those faster characters were a little more useful because they'd get an extra action at some point. It really was a matter of playstyle but in it's own way it felt similar to how Tactics handles it. So my answer. As far as the visual, I liked it. I think it's important to show the player that information (unless the point was to hide it from the player) that way they can play accordingly. It also gave a certain amount of suspense because you'd sit there looking at the action bar raise, going "common, common, lemme attack!" while the enemy wailed on you. In response to how I feel about those systems I feel they're pretty safe and elegant. The downside was that there were times you were just waiting to go and the enemy was also charging their initiative, so the player wasn't doing anything. Watching the gauge rise could be intense if it was a hard fight, but otherwise felt cumbersome.

[@HalidesAndHollowness]

Where would you put an action system like Legend of Dragoon?

[@ziadhassan7]

What is this game? 0:23

[@ricardomerced12]

Dragon age inquisition

[@ricardomerced12]

Sorri it took so long

[@Kathayne636]

What game is that at 2:22?

[@MrVariant]

Clock tick system for moves gets power crept really badly, as speed goes up chapter 4 and monsters scale aggressively to levels to need broken characters like max bravery brawler ninja (at least 300 unarmed damage), arithmeticks, or Orlandeau (giving his Excalibur to Reis as a knight will make her holy breath busted as it boosts holy)/Balthier. 9:50 just spam tailwind and friendly fire tactics for quicker unlocks. Holy and invigoration are probably the only worthwhile spells given speed and invigoration 4 shots bosses, with defense boost making attrition. Otherwise iaido muramasa with arcane strength to put it on steroids. Elmdor pulls that bs with teleport. Main challenge is nelveska and getting rare stuff, like recruiting dark behemoth in Luso battle with Almagest to do damage with huge area of effect based on what they took once you got beastmaster. 12:15 not a masterpiece at all.

[@apuertoricanlife3882]

Subbed great video

[@chet_awesomelad]

I love this video but please, for the sake of our ears, put a pop filter on your microphone. Some of those 'S' sounds are really grating at louder volumes. Also, it sounds like you're moving closer to the microphone in some sentences, like your voice gets louder as the sentence goes on, then resets for the next sentence. This is especially noticeable around 5:10 - 5:30.

[@gamedesignguide4401]

Thanks for the feedback! We'll see if we can get our hands on a good pop filter - probably something we should have invested in a while ago to be fair. -AffinityChris

[@anthonyleyva81]

That is a great note! Thank you!

[@Big_Dai]

I like the concept of this video (even if the channel seems dead), but it's just too much talk with no visual support.. This could have been done in a much better way.

[@Redheart91ita]

game name at 6:41?

[@joaniepepin4968]

The con about how easy it is to abuse is more a fault of the game's skill design than of the type of system. Haste is fine, since it even has a cast time and a limited duration, but Yell is broken AF! Useful when you want to grind JP, though.

[@danielalore8070]

I like your shirt!

[@danielalore8070]

I like Elephants!!!!!

[@ultralurker7579]

Burning wheellll!

[@rgbcrafts]

Played FFT my whole life. Still consider Let Us Cling Together better.

[@kazcrash246]

Story wise = let us cling together is the best

[@FhargaZ]

When i found out the first time playing the game that you can check when the magic will happen by pressing right in the dpad = 🤨😠🙄😂

[@Tatlreach]

For all it's praise, I think the Banner Saga system has some serious flaws. It's very unique and, could probably use a video of it's own.

[@Luminous-Ink]

Chrono Trigger Action System rules

[@FiggsNeughton]

1:18 What kind of soyjak is this and what type of person can I hurt by posting it?

[@seanthomas8864]

I like elephants?!

[@g6handi]

Dude Why do you have one video ???

[@mcbaltz]

You know you're talking too fast, right? Hahahaha

[@gaussminigun]

what the FUCK

[@mikepanda117]

Thanks for nothing.