Fixing the intonation on a classical (spanish) guitar

I addressed the issue that the bridge on my Yamaha spanish guitar has tilted forward a millimetre or 2 in its 50 year history. L-shaped saddle time!
Support me on Patreon:
/ susangardener
Merchandise (T shirts and mugs):
teespring.com/en-GB/stores/su...

[@timsmith190]

The most intelligent discussion of intonation I've ever heard. Thanks!

[@bauchinjochim3835]

it's pretty straightforward, not like you have to do geometry or physics equations.

[@russ1747]

The phenomenon where the strings take time to settle in after being untensioned and then retensioned is due to what is called anelastic recovery. Nylon is a viscoelastic material - it stretches under tension due to a combination of elasticity and creep. Nylon has logarithmic creep, so its rate falls with time until it becomes negligible and the string remains in tune. When you untension the string, the elastic component of its stretch immediately recovers and over time, a significant fraction of the creep also recovers. Hence, when you retension the string, it will start to creep again and go out of tune. The longer you leave a string untensioned for, the greater the anelastic recovery - if you immediately retension a string, the effect is smaller than if you leave it for a few hours.

[@doghouseRMV]

Great to know. Thanks

[@ggeorge4144]

My classical guitar maker intones both the nut and the saddle so that each string is very slightly further back or forward on both the nut and saddle. He made me a classical and a flamenco guitar and each tunes and plays more in tune than any other nylon string I have ever played. It is such a pleasure to play up and downt he fingerboard and have the notes all sound in tune.

[@jannicknielsen]

Susan! Your my hero. I have been reading a lot of (very complex and incomprehensible) texts about guitar issues which you explain so simply. Thanks.

[@thedude6621]

So good seeing someone get creative and try different techniques on the spot on the fly as a repairman myself for 10 years it made my day seeing this video so many great ideas and tricks total brain candy learned alot and made me smile to see a great repair done well I'll be useing these ideas in future thank you Soo much your are fantastic keep it up

[@MacETAC]

I have a Yamaha G-50a and recently replaced the bridge, and then used a bone saddle and nut, to get rid of the old nylon parts... I am not a pro by any means, but did a substantial amount of research before getting into this effort, and having an extensive mechanical background, with some drafting and musical background, I feel I should be able to do this... My project came out wonderfully, and this video of yours was instrumental in helping me achieve the end result I obtained... The guitar is absolutely wonderful, and I have friends who are mesmerised by the sound and accuracy of this guitar... Mac

[@tauttechminusmanagedmusic3778]

Nylon strings take time to stabilise due to the anchoring needing to bed in at both the tuning machine and the bridge anchor points. The 'knots' are slipping slightly after being disturbed. You can reduce the stabilisation time in two ways. 1: At the bridge, link the ends of one strings under its neighbour. This has two effects; it prevents the end of the string 'buzzing' on the soundboard and prevents the string from slipping as much as the knot tightens. At the back of the bridge I anchor the E under the A, the A under the D, the D under the G, the G under the D, and the B under the G, and the E under the B. It's a bit fiddly at first, but the effect both looks good (neat and tidy) and adds stability to the anchoring. 2: At the tuning machine, pass the string over the top of the barrel of the anchor point and up through the hole from the bottom. Then pass the end over the string and back through the hole. Now pull it tight. The string will self anchor and usually does not slip at all. You will likely need to cut the string much shorter than before and need fewer winds to hold the string. The fewer winds you can get away with, the more stable the anchoring. I rarely have more than two winds on the wound strings and three on the solid strings. One other thing. I have found the composite G string in the D'Addario EJ45C set to be especially good at both smoothing the transition from the wound D to the solid G string and compensating for the effect of the relative thickness of the G string.

[@neslesman6708]

You need another thimbs up for that👍

[@kendavis8046]

Wow! Incredible demonstration. Still always looking forward to the guitar build videos, but wow!

[@danielstewart2471]

Excellent! Intonation issues make so much more sense now that I know about the 'nul zone' - finally, after over forty years of playing! Thank you. You are a great teacher.

[@pipercub45]

Thanks for the explanation of intonation! Good thorough explanation of what you were doing.

[@spacecamel3844]

There was so much good information in this video, I absolutely enjoyed this! As an amateur luthier it's videos like this that really help improve my skills.

[@trisinogy]

I know this is an old video but I've found it fascinating and very informative! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am by no means an accomplished musician but I enjoy playing both classical and acoustic guitars: I believe this is by far the best video on intonation I've ever come across. You did a wonderful job explaining what needs to be done and, crucially, why. An instant subscribe for me!

[@ww3032]

Wonderful video Susan. You have a talent for explaining things.

[@roy.mclean]

Very clear explanation. Great craftsmanship in troubleshooting and execution

[@buddhUU]

I've been repairing and setting up guitars for decades and there was loads of stuff in this video that I didn't know! Excellent!

[@CWillGuitar]

I love watching antifa get their asses kicked

[@lewgrill]

I learned a lot Susan. Thanks a million!!!

[@GrulbGL]

that is the kind of work that i was ever looked for from a Luthier what *really* aim the perfection. thank you for share a bit of your hard, surgical and engineering work, what most will not even notice but they will want to play on it dosen't know why GOOD! please more.

[@terryjohinke8065]

Nice to see you and your work again

[@fillipeportilho5449]

Congrats! Fantastic work!

[@BigParadox]

This was impressive, I must say. Such a technical and scientific approach!

[@christopherlord3441]

Very interesting demonstration. I'm sure it will come in handy in future for my own guitars. Thanks.

[@brooksofmaine]

I learned so much! Thank you, Susan.

[@raytristani]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE your disc sander

[@fvillarrealg]

Thank you for the video, i took your advise. I worked on a L shape saddle to my 31 year old classic guitar, it has now a better intonation.

[@stuartcoyle1626]

Thanks for this explanation. I had often wondered why there was an adjustment on the G string of my bridge and not elsewhere on my nylon string guitar. Now I know.

[@carlvictor]

A brilliant display of competence!

[@allenwoody5909]

Having spent the last three years since retirement learning to build electric guitars, including winding my own pups, I recently bought a made in Romania Montana Spanish acoustic hybrid to learn on, inexpensive $43 shipped.. It has a flat fingerbord and is 43 mm at the nut. I have done a fret replace (flat fingerboard so much easier than radius) cut a new bone nut and saddle to replace plastic. I was wondering about intonation on acoustic guitars (Spanish style and other), wow now I understand so much more. I loved to see the struggles, I share these experiences with you and now you with me, genius. I am on a limited budget, so I have to improvise my own tools and strategies to do the work. I am now a fan and a subscriber. I hope to be building an acoustic soon. I will be watching. Thanks.

[@short6691]

The best explanation of nylon vs steel string compensation I have heard! Well done!

[@julianfranji]

You are amazing!!!! Loved this video!!! ❤️

[@PerKeltOfficial]

Great, thanks a lot for this video! Nylon strings take longer to settle because of the shape memory of the material (same as steel strings but they are much more rigid than nylon so it takes much less time). A good cheat to make it faster is 1) stretch each string on all the length (sadly I can’t show how it’s done here but I’m sure there are some videos) and then 2) tune the strings about 1.5 semitones higher, let it sit for few minutes and then do it again with the strings (usually the bass strings) that dropped all the way below the correct tuning - just 1 semitone is enough then. Repeat few more times but brand new strings will settle within like 15-20 minutes this way. I remember during studies at the conservatoire we couldn’t possibly have time to wait any longer, and actually we’re even dropping the tension of bass strings intentionally (big time, till they get floppy, for maybe half an hour) in the morning before a concert to make the strings sound better - if you then tune them up maybe a semitone higher, they just drop right where you want them in few minutes

[@tanyushmusic]

Interesting video! Thank you for sharing and explaining about the saddle tilt

[@richardlee6886]

This video is the best explanation I've found! I did find another very helpful one but it was long and complicated. Thanks.

[@muddysledge]

1st, Cudos to you making your own saddle from a large piece of bone. 2nd, like many others, your explanation of intonation, compensation and dead zone- something I never heard discussed before, is about the best I've heard. You've probably saved my short scale steel string from being slammed against the wall. The B string is always sharp on the 12th (well they all are but B most noticeably) and I've shaved 2 compensated saddles but it's still there driving me crazy. Didn't think of using a thicker saddle with a slight overlap. That would do it. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[@dennisvanmierlo]

Hi Susan, What a great video. I really learned a lot from this ☺️ And great to see hou you work that bone 🦴 Lot’s of greetings, Dennis 🇳🇱

[@johnemmons9087]

Very nice work. And very thorough explanation. Thank you!

[@Olegstuff21986]

That was a very good explanation and demonstration - thank you very much! :)

[@lululululu22]

Best explanation on any topic ever achieved. 🙏♥️🎸

[@miramarensis]

Wonderful job, Susan. I realize the skills you demonstrate in this online class far exceed my technical abilities, however, I'll explain what I did about 10 years ago to fix the intonation issues with my very cheap classical guitar. Noticing that my Fender Stratocaster string saddles are configured in a staggered position, I tried to emulate the same paradigm. I proceeded to remove the bone, filled the slot with wood shavings mixed with epoxy and then Dremeled out a new slot with the desired slanted angle. It was an experiment done intuitively that somehow paid off. I'm pretty sure it's not for everybody and only to be tried on a cheap instrument in case things don't go too well. Cheers and thanks for the lesson!

[@jonimaricruz1692]

OMG, I nearly fainted when I saw your guitar. We have one exactly like it purchased in 1977 or so which makes it about 45 years old, nearly the same as yours. I’ve been having problems with an odd “buzzing” (not exactly fret rattle) on the G and D strings, the neck isn’t bowed and string height off the fretboard is fine. None of the repair shops can find anything wrong but it drives me crazy. Anyway, sorry to ramble, thank you so much for the informative video. I love our guitar which has gotten mellower with age, it was so nice to see it pop up on KZbin!

[@barryducret1052]

I have been unable to get upstairs to my workshop due to my having Parkinsons, with the result that my latest guitar has not been finished and is highly unlikely to be now that I am looking at my final demise, so I was wondering if you would like to finish it for me. As I said in an earlier message it is an experimental guitar with the front grain radiating from the bridge being made up of 30 triangular pieces of cedar reinforced with a piece of cedar going from the sound hole to the lower bout with two struts either side of the soundhole strengthening the top. Hoping to hear from you in the not too distant future from Barry Dycret, the guitar maker.

[@hsvideos4516]

What a great explanation of intonation! Thank you Susan. I've fixed intonation problems on ukuleles a number of times like this but made the saddle by laminating two pieces of bone together with CA glue which is much easier than making from one piece of bone. Gluing surfaces need to be well prepped to get a clean join but if done well, it's hard to see the join . I haven't noticed any loss in tone - the additional saddle mass probably has more impact.

[@Moodymongul]

great tutorial about adding an overstep to the saddle. I have a Classical where the G+B strings needed more saddle at the front (fretboard side). And the Bass 'E' string needed more saddle at the back (side where string goes through bridge). I did it by having a perfectly 'flat and square' piece of bone (set to the correct saddle slot thickness and depth). Then, i superglued bone pieces where the saddle needed to be extended (giving it 24hrs to dry). And shaped them as needed. It worked, with less manufacturing hassles. But, i think i will try to make the stepped saddle ..just for the challenge :)

[@chrisstanford3652]

Wow, lots of work, but you have really enlightened all of us🤗🤗

[@yelddoswell9292]

I have a very old martin paylor guitar built in 1919 and it may very well it wasnt originally a steel string guitar with very little angle on the bridge. I had know idea there was a difference. Thank you, you really know your stuff!!

[@melvingurganus2419]

Thanks, you answered a question I had about nylon vs steel intonation, and you were most through.

[@john-erikkarlsson8674]

Great lesson. Thank you

[@MarkFromTaiwan]

thank you for doing this film it's great to know some one care about this

[@robertsmith4019]

Very informative, would have never considered that approach.

[@AntonioFardella]

I am simply amazed!! Subbed and liked!

[@MrMjp58]

What an amazing video. Full of information and advice. You have a natural presentation style too. I don’t quite understand the sciencey bits but got the gist. I’ve been playing guitars for well over 50 years and have had a large range of instruments. I’ve settled mostly on the nylon strung variety. Intonation issues are crazy with nearly every one I’ve had; especially with the third string. I spend around 30 minutes trying to tune to an equal temperament (whilst playing in every key), every practice session. I then have a pleasurable hour of playing the thing. It all has to be gone through the next time though… I’ve tried many makes of string and all sorts of set up ideas, but the problems are ever present. It seemed that among instrumentalists, guitarists are probably, through necessity, the most obsessive.

[@IIVVBlues]

Interesting. This explains why I get a trained luthier to perform such operations.

[@brumm3653]

This was a very informative video. Thank you.

[@neilus0]

I learnt a lot from this video. Thanks

[@jcrm05]

Great video! very clear explanation.

[@toneconsultant]

It just makes me smile. Smile because I don’t believe I’ve ever hear someone explain is so well. Even the video still had your trial and errors of showing the challenges of clamping down the saddle while you shaped it. Unheard of! Most just edit that out, which isn’t helpful at all. Thank you for being helpful. I actually feel smarter today.

[@slidersson]

Great stuff!!

[@TheKrazyGoob]

0:50 Agustín Barrios. Una Limosna por el Amor de Dios is the intro she is playing here. An absolutely beautiful piece by one of the greatest guitarist who ever existed.

[@joshuajaimes121]

Beautiful!

[@TonecrafteLuthiery]

Thank you! I always scroll down to the comments section when I hear a song I like but don't know the name of hoping some legend like yourself will be there to name the song. There never actually is though 😂. Much appreciated.

[@RobSmathome]

Nothing but admiration for your knowledge and skill. On a practical theme a small affordable desktop cnc machine would cut a design such as the L bridge in a minute or two,and it would be as designed. Thanks for the video. I learned a lot.

[@StuffUCanMake]

Great tutorial!

[@keithmckenney4970]

Actually saved this video as it is so helpful!

[@cybrunel1016]

What I ended up doing on mine years ago was filing off the slot completely and replaced it with two pyramid shaped pieces of wood in which I carved out a trough and added a little brass dowel to replace the saddle. Now I have a split movable saddle that I can adjust for intonation at will.

[@zedizdead]

Make a video of it please 🙏

[@keithyoung7]

That was excellent, a thorough and well demonstrated explanation of intonation. Followed by an equally thorough demonstration on how to fix the problem. I was wondering if you fix other players instruments. Thanks

[@jamesrobertson4407]

Thanks very much for the video, which I used as a guide to help me solve a similar issue with my old Takamine guitar that I wanted to give to a 10-year old just learning to play, but couldn't until the intonation was fixed. The bridge was too far back and intonation was too flat around the upper frets, so I used a blank bone slab to create an L-shaped saddle to shorten the scale length and sharpen the fretted notes, just like yours (except in reverse). For future reference, I found a formula to calculate the setback (or setforward) required, and there's no need to measure the length between frets. SCALE LENGTH / 17.817 = FIRST FRET DISTANCE (FFD) FFD x INTONATION ERROR (at the 12th fret) = compensation required (100 cents per semitone, so 1 cent flat/sharp = ± 1% INTONATION ERROR) Example... for a guitar with a scale length of 650 mm, and a string which is 5 cents sharp at the 12th fret: 650 mm / 17.817 = 36.48201156199136 36.48201156199136 x .05 = 1.824100578099568 setback required: about 1.82 mm

[@ironkiko]

Very cool video!

[@paulandlesson]

Outstanding video. Having a "luthier" do the work is great, but having to send the guitar to the builder (in my case, Thomas Humphrey RIP) the cost is great. Very good information!! Cheers.

[@g43s]

i got my sister's guitar when she moved out, that thing is a whole semiton off 😂😂😂 im looking forward to fix it now that i've seen this. thanks!

[@soulvaccination8679]

I was hoping that you would play.But that’s okay.I learned a lot.Thank You.

[@ihymns]

Excellent explanation!

[@thomasladd3731]

Thanks so much! I am finishing up my first classical guitar, and I have… intonation problems… Your video will help me solve my problem!

[@jayshepherdguitar]

Wonderful video

[@CWillGuitar]

awesome vid!

[@fhulkster]

very interesting video , enjoyed that

[@julianwardguitar]

There are lots of examples of classical guitars with slanted saddles - Ramirez of course and also Burguet to name a couple of very well known makers, both traditional Spanish made guitars. What I noticed with this lovely video and excellent working on the bone, was that at the end of all that work, the 'g' string was very definitely still quite sharp at the 12th fret.

[@SusanGardener]

I was surprised how far back I moved it. There might be another iteration to do. You could argue it’s impossible to hear less than 3 cents

[@heelf5277]

As a professional welder and had a friend that is a maestro i didn't understand $#@&+, but, love your videos and love you

[@Hello-pl2qe]

That was brilliant.

[@russellscott1151]

Explanation of compensation due to tension over saddle is actually first time I’ve heard that despite looking up a lot on the subject an makes perfect sense. Many thanks. Just making a nylon hybrid guitar and currently put in a 1mm compensation from high to low E on the saddle slot (most nylons just have a straight saddle and pushed back 2mm). Hopefully with careful location of bridge that’ll do for this guitar and I can improve on it if I make more.

[@clemmcguinness1087]

Perfect explanation, thank you

[@darleystar]

Great technical advice and explanation. I was going to buy a budget classical guitar (and I mean budget). I know I can fix most issues on a steel string acoustic or electric instrument , but these guitars seem extremely restricted on things like this without the correct equipment. But thanks for the video , very helpful.

[@TheDecguy]

Players are always chasing perfect intonation. The more you think about it the more of a problem it becomes. Changes in the instrument over the years, the humidity indoors vs. the humidity outdoors, string hardness, and so forth. I’ve sometimes had good luck with wound G strings. I’ll be interested to see your results once the guitar and the strings have had a little Ike to settle. Thanks for the video.

[@MrWolfheart111]

Thanks, great video. Great info, going to get a classical here soon, Lol didnt know you couldnt do bends on them. It will be different from shredding on my steel string. God bless. :)

[@rever7132]

Amazing job...

[@DanielSantos-ho7no]

Amazing! Cheers!!

[@tonybanjo]

Very interesting, thanks

[@mayfashguitars]

Excellent video😮, about the not being able to bend on a classical guitar, I just noticed that about 2 days ago😄, so I understand that well I am still at 5:31 in the video, and I have learnt a lot already🥰 Thanks for doing this video Ma

[@paulrautenbach]

Answers to a number of things I've always wondered about. Thanks.

[@pallecla]

Good explanation.

[@antonyhadjion8376]

Very interesting. I didn’t really know the meaning of Intersex. You are gorgeous!❤

[@JimDockrellWatertone]

The saw didn't work because the saw didn't clear the edge of the material. The gullets between the teeth filled and the saw stopped cutting. You notice that the ends cut where the saw was able to exit the material. I so enjoy your fantastic videos and work.

[@NolanTyrrell]

Yep.

[@karmacharmskittens]

Excellent explanation on achieving proper intonation on a guitar. Very elegant work on saddle compensation with minimal specialty tool use. I was quite impressed. It's nice to see skills and grace in your execution. As an amateur luthier who has just completed my first complete restoration and setup on a 1970 Ariana guitar made in Japan (guitar was tossed into a bin and I rescued her). Ive spent 3 months on lockdown working her back to playable condition and your video was very helpful to me on achieving better intonation on this project. It is very rewarding. Thanks for posting Susan!

[@bisekibun]

Thank you very much for very instructive vido. I will try this technique on my C40.

[@rjlchristie]

1:22 The saddle compensation slant is not a steel string vs classical issue. Virtually every high quality classical guitar will also have a saddle set at a slight angle to produce compensation. If not, then it is generally a reflection of the instrument's price point.

[@joenoneofyourbusiness6487]

A bridegport-type vertical mill would cut that ledge very easily. Heavy and expensive, but worth their weight in gold. I've thought of doing this kind of saddle on my 00-18g, but everyone i talked to about it thought i was nuts. After watching this, I'm gonna give it a shot. Thanks!

[@ccaissie113]

Absolutely the best explanation. Young's modulus....I get it. Hand sawing the bridge out of a chunk of bone...no Bridgeport for this lass.

[@ellamyus]

Thank you for this video! And all of them! You are an inspiration for me! In sweden we would call you realy "pysslig"!! ❤️❤️❤️

[@SusanGardener]

My Swedish is limited to bad pronunciation of Ikea product names, but thank you!

[@SteveAaron]

Susan Gardener 😂😂😂😂😂

[@ellamyus]

😂😂Even we swedes cant pronuns the names of ikea products!

[@ellamyus]

And I cant spell in english.... 😋

[@NightSpeed9]

Just learned a bunch of stuff i didn’t know that i needed to know.

[@juana1483]

You have proper tools to work on bone saddles like this?? I don't 😭😃, so I pay someone 😭😭😭 lol. Take care!!! Be safe.

[@chriskrueger1865]

Susan, for the most accurate intonation you should be comparing the 2nd fret to the 14th fret or the 1st fret to the 13th to remove the nut from the equation.

[@henrypagan6657]

Wow thank you for the video

[@patrickpalmer3374]

She has me building all kinds of cool things

[@theleftymonster]

Well explained. Thanks.

[@mwj5368]

Thanks for such a fine video! Your guitar looks a lot like my Takamine No10 classical guitar built in 1986 I bought used about 3 years ago. From what I could tell it appeared to have been played very little. I know it was bought in Japan, brought to the US and sold to me. It was in Japan until I bought it. Only the Takamine guitars that stayed in Japan were varnished on the inside of the sound box because the oceanic air is so humid in Japan. I think it has the reddish brown east Indian rosewood back and sides and a cedar top, ebony bridge and fret board, mahogany neck. The sad thing is there is no truss rod and the strings keep getting progressively higher off the fret board even though a lot of the time I'm playing in the very low tension open C tuning (just my own folk style guitar I play originals and covers with) but low in the $ now to have the neck reset. Also my bridge and saddle are already very thin and low. How much do you charge? The grain in the cedar is very thin, my amateur term... the growth ring lines are extremely thin or many per centimeter. I think the top wood comes from cedars in the far north of Japan that grew very slowly. Does your guitar look so much like mine because the founder of that Takamine company and maybe the founder of Yamaha too... trained under some of the world renowned guitar builders in Spain? I forgot the Takamine founder's name. What do you think of the older Takamine classical guitars like mine? Mine sounds beautiful. It sounds so nice that when I played at a coffeehouse open mic a man liked the sound so much after I performed he was taking pictures of my guitar ha!

[@hermit3400]

Hmmm, Young's Modulus... are you an engineer perchance? I am not a musician, but I have increased my understanding of intonation significantly thanks to this excellent video! Your explanation of the "nul" zone was excellent. I have long wondered why the saddle on a steel string acoustic is angled and thanks to you, now I know. I am getting older now, but every day I try to learn something new. Today, I not only feel I learned something new, I feel I have made a breakthrough in my understanding. It is a very good feeling. You have made my day! Thanks so much!😊