Fixing The MESS That is Forza Horizon 4's PI System

[@ThePurpleguy123]

see you all again in 9 months

[@carlossoares1540]

Noooooo

[@9tailweebyes346]

Pls noooooo

[@govan1]

YYYYYYYeeeeaaahhhhh

[@faln2923]

Nooooo

[@jdtyt8540]

OOF, anyway hope you have great Thanksgiving if you clebrate it. See ya in a while

[@marvingreenscreen9947]

Here's an idea: make the categories for online adventure more specific. For example, a RWD A class adventure instead of just A class adventure. This makes more cars viable, makes more different tuning options viable, and makes the playerbase grow a few brain cells and learn throttle control. also THANK YOU for asking for suggestions that make the game actually better instead of "hurdurr we want indicators" or "hurrdurr fix the car sounds"

[@jktwice8235]

I remember when that Caterham Trial came out and everyone lost their shit because people forgot how to properly handle cars apparently and wanted their win handed to them on a silver platter. IIRC you had to drive a stock Caterham, which you could tune and plenty of people took advantage of that.

[@ThePurpleguy123]

The more specific you make a racing category the more you split up the playerbase and consequently kill certain queues. Class selection in custom dirt racing was removed because of this.

[@marvingreenscreen9947]

@@ThePurpleguy123 whirl I understand that, you can't control the class systems in ranked adventures, which is what I had in mind as in my opinion the ranked adventures and playground games are the best/only thing to do after you finish career mode

[@KestrelTown]

Like Failrace’s Team Adventures on Tuesdays!

[@marvingreenscreen9947]

@@kodakreeeam9971 triggered much? You're saying it like it's Forza facism that I want drivetrains other than AWD to be viable. I enjoy AWD just as much as any other car, you have a BAC mono in s2 that absolutely S H R E D S while having both engine and drivetrain swaps. I guess wanting variety is "forcing players to play as I want them to."

[@lantastic8606]

The devs have stated that PI is calculated by running the build on a representative average test track and assigning a value based on its performance around it. But it's forza's AI driving around this track, and that's what I speculate makes some cars so much better than others. The AI cuts throttle and/or brakes when a tire loses traction (essentially just TCS and STM). Sometimes this is necessary--a 700 hp morgan 3 wheeler can't ever put the power down without something like TCS. But a car like the bone shaker, with huge rear tires and skinny front tires, might slide on corner entry. The computer will slow down to accommodate, but a human will drive and tune around it without slowing down as much. Thus a car like the bone shaker is assigned an artificially low PI value. A similar phenomenon occurs with engine swaps etc. where the swapped engine often has some kind of weakness like low torque or bad high end power. The computer can't drive around it as well as a human can, and assigns an artificially low PI value. I think this helps explain why leaderboard cars are almost always kind of funky. They're usually old and light with a floppy chassis that's more inclined to break traction and thus have lower PI than they should. /ramble Good video--I really liked the idea of assigning tire compound by role and having the grip come along with the class. I think it'd work really well in horizon, where they have a hard time trying to accommodate and balance dirt racing, asphalt racing, wet/dry, and drifting all on the same tire model

[@MrWaffel]

So much more concise and informative than I could put it xD Thanks for the write-up.

[@ThePaperKhan]

Agreed.

[@Sammael66685]

I remember seeing pics of that "average" test track from the days of, FM3 or FM4? It was like a section of that crazy Complex String from GT3 (not even closer) at a fraction of it lenght and, in comparison with the forementioned Complex String, it seemed quite prone to certain bias for me.

[@Noreceipts400]

That makes sense actually. Ive always suspected that the way i upgrade and tune the cars in forza hurts my pi, thats because i particularly focus on a stiff setup and avoid the older cars that arent really rigid. Im still gonna continue as is because i dont like cars with floppy chassis and ive managed to do pretty well anyway

[@Sammael66685]

@@Noreceipts400 You should give a try to older cars, upgrading their suspension/chassis components first. You would see how their PI increase at an alarmating rate, and that's maybe one of the thing they got somewhat right because, i did mention this game is somehow "U.S. biased" like any thing yanks do on games nowadays? Meanwhile, and in the extreme opposite, if you take an already nimble and rigid enough car, the engine upgrades are the ones which skyrocket the PI on to absurd levels. Those are nothing but proofs on how stupidly unbalaced Forza's PI rating is, but i just stopped to give a care on it and take more and more reliable things into account like; power/weight ratio, max speed, and acceleration. Along with how it feels thrown into different tracks to get overall upgraded tunes that works on, pretty much, everywhere as best as they can the way i want respecting the original assets of the car as much as i can (of course, that means driving them stock).

[@skarm227]

My issue with swaps is an unhealthy amount of cars have to use them to be competitive, why can't they give stock engines enough room to hit the top of the class they start in or the one above it? i got so sick of getting new cars only to realize it's the same exact thing EVERY TIME

[@richardendresz161]

Playground games: we will add this old great car which was famous for its engine and suspension as well as it being nimble and agile. So of course we will make it utter trash stock so you have to switch in the 7.5 liter V8 and new suspension completely ruining what makes it special. Go fuck yourselves players and give us your money so we can give you broken DLC cars

[@ZerotheWanderer]

I try to make it a point to keep stock engines as much as I can, although putting a quad rotor in other stuff, especially slower things, is great.

[@thatonenigeriansformula]

same i am fucking tired of hearing ls engines and v12 roar like how does a game single handedly make a v12 and a throbing v8 sound BAD

[@thatonenigeriansformula]

true car guys don't engine swap unless they REALLY HAVE TO or if swapping the motor is just part of the cars culture

[@crazyjak56]

@@thatonenigeriansformula True car guys make the cars they want to. Stop being so pretentious.

[@VNX_Eunos]

Between me and my friends we have said that it looks like the game wasn't made by car guys, more by people who asked car guys what they wanted and gave them a watered down version.

[@LordofDestruction123]

GT5 and GT6 had their own version of Forza's PI system, called Performance Points (PP). This system actually doesn't include the tires in the calculation. GT Sport doesn't have it at all, but at one point, I took on a project to try to implement my own PP system for GT Sport, based on my understanding of how it worked in GT5, which I preferred b/c, IMO it balanced aero better than GT6's system. I experimentally solved for the longitudinal and lateral grip values for each tire compound, and decided to factor that into my formula just to see how it would work, and the balance was incredible. Rather than using power to weight ratio, I actually took the integral of the entire torque curve, multiplied that by a scaled up value of the aero numbers, multiplied that by the grip multiplier, and divided that whole thing by the car's weight. With this formula, I had formula cars, LMP cars, and consumer sports cars lapping the Nordschliefe all within about a second of each other. That said, I limited horsepower and weight in addition to PP. I feel like that is the best way to properly balance performance. All of these cars should set wildly different lap times over such a long track, but everything got balanced just right. My guess is Forza's PI system has a more simplified formula, and people have found where it breaks. Your ideas aren't bad, but after months of coding, I can tell you this system is a bit of a rabbit hole.

[@twongi3000]

How can one guy in a yt comments section do a better job balancing a game than a multi-million dollar company that has been developing these games for so many years.

[@LordofDestruction123]

@@twongi3000 well, it helps when the multi-million dollar company has already done most of the work for me. It took some time to reverse-engineer their formula without access to the source code. It's not a perfect recreation. Even before making the tires part of it, the numbers it produced were very different from those seen in GT5, but it still just worked.

[@KoeingseggCCM]

How Playground Games responds: "You get another chance to win idfk the Peel P50. Also, you've been banned from our servers for daring to disagree with the state of the game."

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

Exactly. Today I decided to see how broken the Ariel nomad is in A class rally, so I picked up a random tune, and got into the top 250 in the world in the 1st track that appears in the dirt track selector

[@BrolyKenseigoku]

yaaay we can win the same cars for the millionth time.. but oh wait.... 2 or 3 new cars a month no one cares about?!?! woohoo!! yeah that's what we need.. no innovation to gameplay, but gotta have those cars for 1 hour of gameplay... so cringe..

[@JustDevon]

I’ve hated the Forza PI system since Forza 6. It’s designed in a way that creates horrible balancing between cars and, I’m not sure what it’s like in Horizon, but power and acceleration is king in Motorsport, forget handling. I imagine it’s a similar story though. Turn 10 might use “over 700 cars” as a marketing pitch, but realistically in multiplayer there aren’t that many cars that are actually competitive. Homologation was a decent idea to solve this problem but it was put into a game with the aforementioned 700 cars meaning there were dozens of divisions so you’d never get to drive most divisions online anyway. When homologation was being used, it was only possible to use about 10% of cars online. The next Motorsport needs a GT Sport type grouping system, and honestly the level of tuning freedom is hurting it. People like it, sure, but sometimes you have to put your faith in a system that might get backlash but will ultimately end up being better Edit: mostly things you mentioned now that I’ve watched the video 👌🏻

[@deftknight7418]

Do not tell me your one of those guys who says that tuning is when you add parts to a car. That's not tuning.

[@Stray_Spectre]

That's it exactly, it's all about power and to hell with handling. It always bothered me how the AI in FM6 would dust me on straights even though I tuned my car to the top of the class. One day I decided to do all power and no handling and I was even with the AI on straights and could still out-corner it, but it made the car feel miserably unbalanced and not fun to drive. This is how I thought when I was a little kid. I would always just pick the car with the most power or top speed because "it's the fastest one." The PI/upgrade system in the Forza series caters to literal kindergartners.

[@rwdplz1]

The most broken parts is there is always a certain car in each class/race type that absolutely dominates everything else, and it's basically impossible to know what that is unless you go into each race class and see what the high ranked players are using. Even worse if it's a limited availability car you can't buy.

[@twisteddrifter8385]

When the world needed him the most, he came back. And then he vanished again.

[@KudosK42]

This joke.

[@KudosK42]

I hate it

[@twisteddrifter8385]

@@KudosK42 don’t worry buddy it hates you too

[@KudosK42]

@@twisteddrifter8385 that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

[@twisteddrifter8385]

@@KudosK42 absolutely right sir

[@RandomGuy37]

You should do a Gran Turismo 4 playthrough. That would be some interesting content.

[@soldadoryanbr7776]

Amazing game, need to get a copy of that RN

[@No-vq1iv]

Yeah. But you know what would be really interesting? Watching paint dry.

[@branimircavlovic7883]

And a LOT of it.

[@Jarmundx]

YELO EVO

[@soldadoryanbr7776]

@@Jarmundx FATBOY SLIM

[@tyypit4493]

Tyres not contributing to PI is such a great idea. Also customisable power limiters and adding ballast would be great for the next game.

[@MrWaffel]

Something that floated around for a while I think (and I'm not really sure where it came from) was that the PI system is based on how the AI would drive a car if that upgrade was put in. That's why drag tyres became the new meta for cars with a strong stock handling, because the AI didn't drive well on drag tyres (as they shouldn't) but human players could offset the negligable handling "loss" with the additional engine power you gained with the PI you freed up by downgrading the tyre compound. I think you touch on some very good points, and I agree with you on most; but I think of those additional upgrades you want to get rid of as a very neat way of giving me another fine tuning lever to pull to get a car right to the top of the class. You then also have rims, roll cages, flywheels, etc, enough to offset 1% of the car's PI easily. Also there are some aspects that come with playing on simulation damage - those few poor souls that submit themselves to that pain for example have need of some particular upgrades like oil & cooling which are usually worse than useless for the general playerbase. And I'm sorry for playing the party pooper, but sadly, those changes would at best get used in the next Forza game, because there's no way they'd make such a radical change to the game this late in its life cycle. Even if they're good ideas.

[@otherplans427]

I think he's aware the changes he proposes are never gonna make it in FH4. I'm fairly certain they pretty much stopped developing this game and move to working on FH5 more than a year ago. Even for a potential FH5 game these ideas are probably too late to make the cut in it (unless they though of this already, which I kind of doubt).

[@xavigarro3915]

never understood the purpose of simulation damage in horizon games, i tried playing with it on for a while and discovered that a large majority of races (mainly cross country, some rally and some street races) are impossible to do without your car getting destroyed

[@TriangleV]

10:28 "Something's Clio-rly wrong here."

[@glitch_finder69]

Nice

[@cesarfelipe7138]

Dat cursed Evo tho D:

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

PUNS PUNS EVERYWHERE

[@fabiopezzolla9055]

Discovered this channel 3 days ago Told myself "sucks he's gone" Now he's back Yay!

[@IndrasilDesignStudio]

This is a small mess compared to the absolute dumpster fire that is the ranked system and matchmaking.

[@izabelachorazewicz7798]

Yeah

[@matthewbailey2744]

Honestly alot of games completely bungle high level/tier play. (Note: I'm not really a high skill player in most games) Some general examples being: -A good amount of action games just become "kill the thing in 15 seconds by rendering the foe unable to move or attack". -A lot of competitive or ranked systems often end up with the devs not paying attention to community feedback, balance and performance, and how well (or poorly) certain options perform. So the competitive scene turns into everyone using similar broken strats until someone discovers a new equally or more broken strategy. -A good chunk of RPGs (typically MMO types) turn into requiring a guild and spending absurd amounts of time grinding until you get equipment that removes much of the challenge from the game. (or having players commit to absurdly long battles) -A lot of platforming games turn into Mario Maker (unofficial levels of course) where there's little to no room for error, which pushes levels to be overly reliant on repetition and pinpoint reactions.

[@shandy-lee]

I had my doubts when you were first explaining only having 3 tire styles, but that actually makes sense. I believe one of the main issues with Horizon is that there is too much customization. That's all well and good when you're showing off all the cool mods you did to your buddies, but in racing everything is done by the book. Even small time autocross events (where really anyone could join, I plan on running my car next summer) will put cars in different classes if they have too wide a tire or suspension and engine mods. I believe things like fully customizable gear ratios are way too in depth for what they need to be. I think having a fixed set of transmission ratios would work, as if you would be swapping in an aftermarket tranny like a T56. Also having the final drive ratio tied to transmission upgrades is a bit silly. With the muscle cars in particular, you have to go from a 4 to a 5 speed tranny just to change the final drive. The non-adjustable tranny upgrade is a total toss up on whether it will be better or not for the car, and should be removed from the game. I liked Gran Turismo 5s way of handling transmissions where you simply had short, medium, and tall geared transmissions for tight tracks, tracks with long straights, or a mix of both. Forza aero could also use some work. There are a ton of cars in the game with a stock rear spoiler where you can clearly see the little panel that can be taken off to adjust the downforce, however the game labels all of these as non-adjustable. Even a simple less/some/ more downforce selector would be better than nothing. The engine tune slider is something I wish I could use in the game for cars like the Caterham, where it's kind of in a limbo of not being able to go into A-class but needing turbo/awd or engine swap to make it to the top of S1-class. Or at least add some base model cars. Having a Z06 Corvette is cool, but I also think a base C5 Corvette would be perfect for A-class races.

[@mateuszpaszkiewicz3831]

Now I realize why it's broken, because cars with improved grip have way more PI than stock making them underpowered for class they were raised for.

[@theidealcopy_]

It’s ridiculous - in most cases if you’re building a car for tarmac in A class you’re better off putting it on rally tyres because they have almost the same amount of grip on tarmac as race tyres, are also superior off-road *and* are worth about 20 less PI. Unless you’re tuning a car up to A class all the way from D or C class there’s no way it’ll be competitive on race tyres because that 20 PI difference between race and rally compounds could be worth 50-100hp depending on the car

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

With 2 exceptions: Forza aero and AWD

[@mateuszpaszkiewicz3831]

​@@זהסודי-ה7מ Aero helps for a downforce and rally superiority is held by All-wheel drive

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

@@mateuszpaszkiewicz3831 In rally it's obvious, but on road it's plain stupidity. AWD and Forza aero (usually combined) can give you almost as much grip as race tires, for less PI

[@rallygeek1798]

I'd love to seen you on DiRT driving a Quattro S1 or a Lancia Stratos, you can do lots of stuff with your channel, damn you could even do Minecraft gameplays, i just like your humour, kek.

[@zyx2861]

You make AR12Gaming sounds like AR12Laming, and i love that.

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

IAM12GAMING

[@sabastiangipson8163]

I understand what you're saying about the engine swaps and I agree with you personally I stop racing online because I noticed that there was no point when you neither just get rammed or where you would be put up against someone who had a V12 all-wheel drive and didn't know how to drive it

[@Doomsday_Report]

Part of the problem IMO is the high level tuning equipment is poorly calculated, like a race gearbox is usually flat or "worse" than stock, but everyone knows adjusting the final drive alone is a huge deal, as well as a weight drop and shift times if you're not using manual+clutch (which at this point is basically an exploit) and then you have parts like clutch which are just for shaving the last few kilos and have no real performance impact. The default settings should be ignored for these parts and instead either add a set amount of PI based on a theoretical best result or adjust the PI as you change tuning to better reflect the huge potential that tunable parts represent.

[@Qunia]

Forza's racing system kinda just sucks. I can’t even properly race my favorite kind of classes. I can’t ever properly race older cars without the AI just being completely unfair, or it’s way too easy. And multiplayer is just, well, very very bad imo

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

21:10 Something like an ecu tune. In real life, as all car guys know, tuning your ECU can get you more power, so I think that every upgrade can also add to a 2nd bar called "potential horsepower", which is the max horsepower value on the slider This would be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for sim damage as setting the bar to higher would reduce reliability, because extra stress on the engine

[@p3tit_nuage82]

The trackmania music in the back is on point

[@alexkaadis]

Holy shit dude. I was just thinking about your channel and where you have been

[@OfficialDJSoru]

That Trackmania Nations/United menu music brings me back.

[@Pman8362]

All these fixes seem pretty cool, and I would enjoy them. Tbh the most fun I had in this game was when I made a time attack S2K for rivals, focusing on a specific track and class, as I had to be a lot more resourceful with my tuning, and a simple swap was not the answer to going fast. I think all of these changes would help bring this style of tuning to the main game.

[@GhostlyKudu2]

I have been feeling like there was something off with this game, especially seeing the same damn cars online all the time (I'm looking at you Ford GT '05) but this really helped me understand why. Great video :) gonna go enjoy finishing fifth

[@thegaz-man]

I remember on Forza 4 upgrading a whole series of hatchbacks to a 500 PI and testing them on the same track. An AWD swapped Shelby Omni was about 5 seconds quicker, on a minute-long track, than a FWD Seat of the same PI. Really fun experiment, that was

[@sev6768]

As a No Swap and RWD/FWD purist that hates forza aero and AWD swaps, im happy to see someone with basically the same views that i do on the state of this game. This video basically lays out and explains all my exact problems that i have with the game. Playing in online adventures against tryhards in clans driving AWD swapped cars with forza aero spamming cocky trash talking quick chat lines while being uncatchable because of their cars speed alone is the most annoying shit in this game.

[@weihaochin5976]

To sum up this entire video: Make the Forza PI system more realistic?

[@joshthemigpro1733]

If u want realism play a sim not simcadr

[@uncertainpickles]

It needs to be more balanced, not more realistic

[@georgebidmead1200]

14:23 the caterham is actually broken. You can give it drag tires, forza aero and Awd all giving the car more grip yet the class is lowered to A class if you include heavy wheels and large rim size. I assume this is because the car becomes heavier and has more drag however the drag can be reduced by decreasing downforce. Also weight does not matter considering the car is just over 500kg.

[@altrd_mango]

FH4 is just a "Play for an hour, and then play another thing" or just play it for the liveries (recreations, original and... itashas... yeah...)

[@sabersz]

I can't agree. I've played over 4000 hours of it since launch, and I still play it 2 or 3 hours every day. Probably because I can get enjoyment out of the littlest thing

[@stevato0449]

@@sabersz @ARMelunio I play for myself, tuning my own D-A class cars in windy tracks I built and just have fun driving, challenging myself to get the best times, drifting, occasionally playing with friends, and it is very fun! But I'd like Forza to overhaul its PI system and adventure mode, also encourage people to drive lower class cars D-B specifically, I've been playing C class on my own lately and boi it is intense and very fun to go 100mph on curvy roads with very little margin of error. Most people I encounter just drive S2 AWD swap anything and supercars, I haven't had the opportunity to street race a guy on free roam with equally classed cars, like C-B class, hell, not even A class.

[@siggy2609]

@@stevato0449 for real. I went out of my way spending hours tuning cars for each adventure type and class, and then realised that online races are pretty much s1 extreme off-roading 95% of the time. And then in free roam when I'm cruising around in my B tier miata I just get ppl in hypercars lining up with me. Like bro well done you can outrace a miata lmao It's a hard life trying to enjoy low class cars

[@minoassal]

i was hearing trackmania soundtrack and had to check if i didn't keep it running in the background

[@lalxl]

My biggest grudge with Forza Horizon 4 is the sheer amount of cars. When you start an online race and you want to choose a car (eg. from S1 class), you have to sift through tens or hundreds of cars to find the one. It's extremely annoying imo. There should be some kind of sorting system, so that when you queue for a road race S1, you don't see some fucking G63 6x6x6 or trophy trucks. Also I would disconnect the tires from the upgrades entirely. I'd like to change them in the 'Cars' section of the pause menu, but also before each race. You see rain, you click 'Change tires' and put on wets. It would be so much more intuitive, instead of putting one set of tires on and you're done.

[@jordanprice9285]

Tokyo Xtreme Racer would be kinda nice to see not gonna lie. Either Tokyo Xtreme Racer Zero or 3

[@Woolfio]

I have started playing FH4 maybe a year ago, until then i was casually playing Burnout Paradise and before that some old NFS games, so i am not a big racer. But even so when i learned that in FH4 you have to engine swap and drive swap or you won't be competitive even in casual race - i was very disappointed and sad. That takes away so much fun out of the game. I doubt it will change, maybe in FH5, but by that time we may have a bunch of new racing games to play instead.

[@gabrielrej834]

Honestly? Id rather take a page from Automation's book and literally simulate a car on a race track, then display PI as time around that simulated race track. Build a car however you want, press a button to simulate the car and get your PI score, along with some ideas about how to make the car faster, where you lose grip, which gear to use where etc.

[@smashedfinger739]

That's sort of how it works right now actually. Link to post from developer on the forums > forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postsm440102_posts.aspx#post_440102

[@Splomf]

Problem is that the AI would drive in a specific way, and not all players drive like that. Some drive in a differant style than the AI. A good representation of this is when in a car with decent downforce, you can take corners that are Fully RED in the driving line at full or partial throttle and you'll be fine.

[@car8070]

Thank you! I don't think people realize how much swaps & drivetrains affect the racing. Gran Turismo doesn't allow engine swaps neither drivetrain swaps and the racing is much closer. Due to this i play and enjoy the gran turismo franchise much more.

[@weasel4669]

Thanks for making this video Purple, I’ve wanted someone to say something about the PI in a while.

[@joestinton7838]

The PI system in motorsport used to be determined by an AI laptime around all the tracks while using assists. This is why stuff like the clutch would add PI despite not giving any advantage when using m+c.

[@markjohnson1734]

hahahaha the AWD system is bogus. It's amazing how the PI will GO DOWN and decrease 0-60 time while improving handling. BUT, the flip side is on motorsport 7 ANY car with AWD WILL be slower simply because that game refuses to give AWD cars front grip.

[@patito8728]

That trackmania united forever music tho, bring back some memories too me

[@cjskater2006]

Related to the core issue: *Ranked online* should have everyone drive curated cars in the first place. They should have the same mods and PI (or maybe just stock?), but you can change the aesthetics to look however you want beforehand. You wouldn't need multiple of the same car it would just ignore the performance of the mods you have installed. Which means it would even allow you to own 1 car for multiple classes. I'm not saying everyone should be in the same car. They could probably curate the cars based on season and content releases, finding the cars and setups that perform the most similar in testing beforehand, then giving players a list to choose from. In my opinion its ranked and rivals, mainly ranked, that give the meta an incentive to be used in the first place. So at least for ranked, a actually competitive mode, the variables should be removed from the equation. I kind of like the idea of Rivals being a wild west though, so I don't think it's required there. I don't even think PI would be a discussion if it wasn't a factor in the 1 mode it matters in currently.

[@Sideband]

The tire PI stuff is absolutely key. As far as I can tell, grip doesn't affect AI drivatars, and as far as I can tell, AI drivatars focus on straight up speed and weight upgrades on their cars. On some seasonal challenges, where you have to fit a car for a certain class, you might try to throw say rally tires onto a car for dirt track racing, and that eats up so much of your PI budget as to make it impossible to get enough performance in it to properly race. Which is wild, because good tires are as important for racing as weight and power.

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

4:19 In horizon 1 race tires on rally cars performed very well, because rally tires were a part of the DLC,as well as a rally transmission (for SOME reason). the game was still the best tho

[@Th3_L30n]

I want to let you know on a couple of things that you might not known, given that you said you haven't been able to play some of the first and older Forza titles. 7:40 >They actually had a similar system to what you propose in FM1 and FM2, where you would pick the manufacturer of your tires, and each one would have different stats for the behaviour and resistance of the tyre. 9:50 >This is a thing that truly marvels me, because, even though the game has TONS of cars, you would think that a gearhead or car lover would love to drive ALL of them, but instead, these types of people stick to the meta and their only preferred car. Like, it's a literal abstract scenario where you can drive almost ANY car you like, but when the chips are down, they don't really seem to be that much of fans of cars or car culture. >Another thing is that, when the Horizon spin-off started, it didn't allowed you to drive swap the cars. The craziest thing you could do, was engine swaping (And even that was limited by manufacturer, and not what I think they are using now, that looks like a "universal engine" system of sorts). If anything, I think them adding a lot of features that were mostly on the Motorsport branch originally actually broke the game even more on FH3 and FH4, because their more simple and "arcade" game was getting more and more complicated with "simulation" features that were never originally intended to be a part of it.

[@Bloo57999]

Honestly, Forza needs to work on the pi system. I have noticed that you can tune a car to be much better than the pi system can detect. The game should rate the car AFTER it's tuned. It should run an actual simulation of the car using the game engine and the exact tune you load onto the car. Then you press the qualify car button, and it goes through like a 1 minute test run of the car to test handling, accel, etc.

[@radicalrica]

This just reminds me of how the RSR in Nfs Heat was and has been broken since the launch of the game and is the only car sweats use to grind cash because it can take a 90 degree turn while topping out

[@ZeldaACFan17]

Gran Turismo and Enthusia music in the background... Aaaah the memories are hitting me hard!

[@tontontin]

Hey man, I've always loved your content and I still use your old videos as a basis for tuning my own stuff in Forza so just want to thank you for that and I look forward to whatever content you decided to move on to from now on

[@francescomazzucco6264]

Holy shit, intelligence. That's rare Anyways, the development team I believe could create a better "PI equation" using the suggestions you made, that makes a lot of sense. Some suggested to make more classes but as you responded to them, this would divide the playerbase too much. But as you said the majority of the playerbase is young and probably doesn't even know what ratio is, because of this the devs just don't care about balancing like in many other games. The thing that really matters to them is work to money ratio, like every company (I don't like this but I can understand it). Until they see that adding a new car generates more income than a balancing re-work they will keep doing things as they do. The problem is that, at least me, I'm not a try hard and I don't enjoy playing sim racing that much, I like a simpler and more arcade experience, I also like tuning cars, engine swaps aren't that stupid I believe, as long as you know how to balance them. You can't fucking fit a v12 inside a Miata without demolishing it ffs. What we need is a game with racing in mind, good balancing and some tuning. Who knows if something like this will or already exists. If someone has suggestions please comment this comment. Thanks (Edit) For some content suggestions, you could try doing a video about Forza motorsport 4, it's cool. Also some old grand tourismo games or you could do some videos like your old ones on rally games or the initial d series.

[@Bloo57999]

Maybe an engine tune mode would be cool, where you can dyno tune the air-fuel mix to produce more or less power for the engine, like up for down 5%-10% of the engine power just to squeeze out the last few pi numbers of a class

[@JustAJAG]

As far as game suggestions go, my picks would be the Trackmania series (you even use TMNF OST in this video, surely you've got something to say about it :p) or Distance - probably a polar opposite to what you've played before, but that's what makes it so fun!

[@TheEmolano]

Great Vid portuga safado! I disagree a little with the engine thing, it's way better to chose each part, maybe the slides could be optional, so if someone want the game would automatically choose the parts for them based on it. And one more thing, the PI system should consider tuning too, just ajusting a little your car may decrease you time several seconds. Not everyone is into tuning so a more arcade version of it could be avaliable for casual players, like the engine thing(a slide from oversteer to understeer for example). But you may say: how it will work if tuning a 800 car can chance it's PI to 807? My ideia is that it would be cool to have a more dinamic matchmaking in this game, 100 PI is too big of a interval in my opinion, so similar cars would race together regardless of class(a race where cars vary from 796 to 804 or other that goes from 666 to 680, for example). A karma system would be good too were nice people race other nice people and rammers race rammers(but this is other topic). Anyway, as you indirectly said in your other video about wasted time, the playlist system is trash!

[@זהסודי-ה7מ]

Maybe they can add a new upgrade called a standalone ECU that unlocks all tuning options, but cost a fair amount of PI

[@cryaesthetic3603]

For the either too low or too high note I think maybe having a boost slider or if it's na maybe restrictor slider of some sort for finetuning pi? We still get the building your own things completely but you also get to fine tune things if you so wish. And also an option to select a certain pi and build type and have a feature where the game builds it for you if you're not interested in building it yourself.(i know like this already exists but you can't select dirt or tarmac etc)

[@otherplans427]

I stopped regularly playing FH4 about the same time, was wondering why I don't see any more video recommendations from you :) I do fully agree with what you're saying. The things that was always off for me about the car parts and upgrading in FH4 (and what slowly and surely showed me what a broken mess in terms of balance they are) was when I saw people rocket in other YT videos at 300+ km/h in super/hyper cars, with a tarmac/circuit racing-spec car, but offroad... I mean... come on. Ok, this is an arcade game, but so is something like The Crew 1 and that game gives non offroad builds/cars a hard top-speed limit when driving fully offroad. And then you get more in depth in how the game works and you see people opt for racing tyres on the Boneshaker rally build... wtf? And then there's that OP race-spec Ferrari that makes getting big air in jumps so many more times easier than with any other offroad car... I'm sorry, what? Can I please use an offroad car to dominate offroad?

[@fzj8022]

The engine upgrade/tuning is a good start to an idea. They should not remove parts from the upgrade system, instead they should give the ability to tune when you select the race ecu/tune upgrade. It could be a slider where you can take hp down or up from the level it's at. A second slider would also let you move the power curve lower or higher in the rev range. This would not only make the tops of classes more competitive, but it would encourage tuning your vehicle as it would be the only way to get the most amount of power for your car. And if you have a heavier car you can tune for low end grunt, or a lightweight race car you can make the power all at the top end. Moving the curve shouldn't change the PI, but changing the power should. After more thought, I believe the tuning should allow for +/-15% in power and +/-15% in rpm peak. And if you lower your peak, it should flatten the curve aswell. That way there's trade-offs no matter what you do

[@konix_py3253]

The upgrade slider, you could have something like in the first Juiced, you can buy an ECU of sorts and then tune your power there, the upgrade won't add any power by default but in the tuning it can add let's say 10% more power than the fully tuned car already has, but it can also reduce the total power output to say 50%, so you can easily have a fully upgraded car, and downgrade/upgrade it to the class you need it for by the power output it has, again considering it's power/weight ratio as you mentioned, and changing it's tires to the specs of the class it's on, so you don't also need to have 2 cars for different classes for ease of selection, or have one that you constantly change parts of, that is of course, if you actually use the same car for two classes instead of just having more variety.

[@konix_py3253]

IRL this happens as well, mostly though it goes around the PSI on the forced induction, compression and AFR, you make a car capable of 1100 hp, but you tone it down to 700 for a better torque curve or well just regulations. which also adds that the lag of the forced induction should be taken in mind, rather than just the hp the cars makes at the end of the band, also how early the top hp or torque is reached.

[@VNX_Eunos]

The tire idea is very similar to the racing style of MF Ghost(Initial D sequel).

[@nicholasmoore423]

Big agree! Thank you so much for adding the awesome GT4 music to your video! Take away LS Swaps and AWD swaps, let us tune the stock engines to absurd power levels like in real life! Where's my 2000HP Supra or Nitromethane fueled 3000HP Dodge Charger dragster!?

[@konyina]

I WAS LITTERALLY DROOLING COS U WERE GONE JUST YESTERDAY. Anyway, stay frosty m8 we got ya

[@clumsygarage1578]

I think that maybe some of the issues with the existing PI system could be fixed by having separate PI numbers for each event type.

[@illusionaryphantom3470]

No, you are right about FWD being generaly easier to handle than RWD in this game. It does some time to accustom yourself to it, but in exchange you will get a car that rides like it's on rails on every surface.There are FWD cars with lift-off oversteer which takes good skill to drive reliably, but they are exceptions. Lancia Fulvia dominates every other car of the same class but RWD on dirt. And about the engine tuning, I think slider is too boring, yet I completely agree about all the problems with parts buying. I think it would be better to have both: buy parts to upgrade, have a slider to fine tune the engine. Horizon has so much potential to be both serious racing game and casual racing game at the same time. That's what made me play it in the first place.

[@baronvonnapalm8448]

Consider giving Wreckfest a try. Definitely one of the best smash and crash games out there

[@devandrasimanjuntak1646]

for upgrades, I think it’s good to keep all the aspects of the ones that Forza has right now. However, combine that with the option to tune your ECU like in Juiced 2, so that you can add or subtract power. NFS Underground 2 simulates this perfectly, making the highest HP car for a particular part set is possible, but it sacrifices powerband and you’d have to compensate with optimal gearing. Even then, the car would still be unpredictable. Or a simple version would be to keep the Forza in depth upgrade system, but have the option of a slider like in GT Sport to detune the car until about 50% of it’s maximum value with the current upgrade set.

[@GRIMEYtheFATMAN]

I always hated games that ditched buying car parts to upgrade for some other system, but I also understand the need for a better option in those few PI over or under situations, so why not both parts AND a slider, like 'Juiced' had - you bought parts for upgrades, but the ECU also had a slider that allowed you to fine-tune your power output...

[@ivailok3376]

You can say Horizon's PI system has been broken ever since FH2 and it's been getting progressively worse. The can of worms was opened when engine swaps from other manufacturers were opened up to every car which wasn't possible in Horizon 1 and any of the Xbox 360 Forza games (like a Lambo V12 on a Chevrolet). This paired with the AWD drivetrain swap which was also not in Horizon 1, but reintroduced in Horizon 2 created some stupidly OP cars. I remember the FH2 drag racing was dominated by Alfa Stradales and Charger Daytonas in A class with 1000+ HP. Then came Horizon 3 which tried to fix this by making engine swaps increase PI more (or was it something with the tires? I don't remember anymore), but the AWD swap ultimately remained the same amounts of OP. FH4 did nothing to change this and this is where we are today. For me, an adequate fix for the PI system is to remake how the game handles AWD in general: give it more understeer, make it heavier and make the AWD swap increase PI a lot more than what it currently does. Basically make AWD cars more of a hassle to drive instead of the child's play that they are right now. Should be a good starting point for fixing the broken PI system.

[@peppa1492]

I think that switching from, let's say, FWD to AWD shouldn't decrease, or just increase PI. I think it should work like a multiplier for PI. Same goes for tires (let's say +20% grip could equal to 1.1-1.2x PI) and certain weight reduction/management and engine upgrades.

[@LordAzran_]

Well now. Look at what the cat dragged in! Fun fact: Your new video was released four days after JonMan's new video. Weird coincedence. I wonder why?

[@litreocola6447]

Big thing about the PI system is that it’s relative; the map environment and race format dictates which builds are strongest. Ultimately, the most accurate way to get a good baseline is for the game to look at which cars win the most in online lobbies and hot lap leaderboards, download the specified tune and do some kind of regression analysis to find the true baseline.

[@AveryatTwoohFive]

I happen to be one of the people that uses something other than an Alfa Romeo Giulia, Chevy Nova, or atomic punk in A Class racing. It's not fun seeing just those three cars and nothing else, and constantly losing because I refuse to drive one of those three cars.

[@KestrelTown]

Racing someone in an Alfa TZ2 to the line and beating them in the Quartz Regalia, or Abarth 500 is the best feeling. Orgasmic.

[@TheJayden3977]

The problem I have with the PI system in FH4 is that it’s so claustrophobic you can’t use many cars competitively. For example The Pagani Zonda Cinque and the Pagani Zonda R in FH4 are both S2, yet in FH1 are R3 and R1. Two classes apart! FH1’s PI system was amazing because there was so much more balance and diversity. The Top 5 classes (R1-A) all contained super cars, yet most of these cars are squished into S2-S1 and High A in FH4. They need to make more classes, spread the cars out.

[@Soir27]

I feel like I know where “anchovy” on the license plate came from...

[@CleridwenFR]

Great video (music a little bit too loud sometimes but otherwise it's fine). I agree that the PI system is broken and need a serious rework, at least for the next Forza Horizon. I have the same feelings about the meta/useless cars/etc, and got bored of the game a few months ago after starting to do mainly multiplayer races. I found myself enjoying the Eliminator a lot, because while the freeroam-rush-thing comes with it's downsides (for example randomness), at least you are not racing against players with meta cars or something. Just near-stock cars you found. This game is having an identity crisis. It wants to be attractive to both a young and casual audience, but also offer lots of "realistic" upgrade options and tons of tuning. It wants to have a huge car list but is ruled by a meta of a handful of cars.

[@milanyates8522]

Great vid bro, I certainly don’t agree with all your points, but it was still an interesting approach. As someone that spends a lot of time cruising in this game, a lot of the suggestions you made like removing tire compounds or removing swaps will make that harder for me to do as in depth as I’d like, but I do understand them from a racing standpoint. Ultimately there just needs to be balance, which will be hard to achieve as it needs to please everyone

[@delayed_control]

The most aggravating thing is that what you mention at 16:45 IS ALREADY IN THE SERIES - in form of division system in Forza Motorsport - the mainline. They do manage to break even that (the limits are only upper boundaries so you can abuse them if you try hard enough) and they basically discourage its use with no dedicated hoppers except for GT in Motorsport 7 but it STILL manages to deliver a much closer racing experience than PI based hoppers. They should not only fix it in Motorsport, they should replace the whole PI system with this and bring it into Horizon, precisely because that's the only system that works - as certified by people who know WAY more about motorsport than the morons at Turn 10.

[@gameboy3800]

if you want a legitimately good tarmac race car, look at the clk gtr. put on grippier than usual race slicks with heavier rims and some form of gearbox, and youre basically done. you get the ultra grippy race tires, a car with tunable aero by default, and a 6.9l v12 from standard. it can still hit about 195mph within a reasonable amount of time and the cornering grip is that of an s2 class car.

[@1mariomaniac]

The main reason I like swaps in horizon 4 is for funny builds. For example I noticed the Ford Anglia has a perfect 50/50 weight distribution, I proceeded to stuff a turbo rally engine into it giving the car a near 1-1 power to weight ratio and tuned it specifically for drifting. I entered a drift adventure and soon after won overall.... Against modern sports cars. Edit: I should probably clarify that I mean kg/hp not lb/hp when I'm talking about power to weight.

[@delayed_control]

I like how you rub it in by using Trackmania soundtrack.

[@Exponaut_R-01]

I’ve never heard anyone else mentioning this but I’ve got to agree I just didn’t take this into account when everyone was barking about the homologation system’s mere existence.

[@Ninjagnome66]

The one thing I think they should change is the matchmaking system. Having a selection screen of which class and race type you want to play would make it a lot better that way I can actually play with the tune I just spent an hour tweaking. Or they can even add themes/conditions to races like they have in the base game. Like you can only use B class old rally cars in this championship. That way 1) you're actually using your entire garage instead of being able to abuse 6-7 cars for everything and 2) it would make balancing cars much easier when you limit a car's competition to 40 cars max, instead of 700+ (theoretically)

[@Alexifeu]

I LIKE HOW YOU USE MY JAM, Plants VS Zombies. A man of culture.

[@dragonking7092]

I'm totally up for other games. In fact, I think a rebranding as a Racing channel rather than a Forza Racing channel might bring some new eyes to your content. It'll also allow you to play whatever game you enjoy at the time. Hope you don't leave for 9 months again, I love your content, but things like mental health and burnout are more important.

[@conorsmith1325]

The final idea is solid as especially as you get in the higher classes there will be cars sitting at the bottom of the class but unable to get or are unviable toget to the top so the tiny downgrade would be handy another thing I think is needed is similar to the old games have S class and S2 split off for 850 and 950 respectively as yes that's more classes but at those points a lot of cars struggle to get past those point or again are unviable

[@antothemanto77]

I've honestly thought the PI system has been messed up in every Forza game I've played. It's always frustrating having to build cars and figure out which ones are actually good because Forza just makes some cars perform inherently better than others.

[@expressset430]

As someone who isn’t a “pro horizon” player.....I usually try to max PI, and only don’t do it when I’m either A) making a certain class build. Or B) making a replica build(Devil Z Fairlady, pursuit special XB GT, ect) in which I tune it to their counter parts. Or C) a specific build like Drift or Rally

[@VestedUTuber]

Just an idea for handling swaps: For engines, limit it to engine types that fit without significantly modifying the entire vehicle and are easily available. Crate engines, stuff you can reasonably find in a junkyard or on the second-hand market, etc. Exception being unique specialty engines like the Mazda 26B 4-rotor in certain vehicles. I also kinda want to see some more variety on the lower end of the scale in terms of engine swaps. More I4s, V6s, Boxers, etc. For drivelines, restrict it to vehicles that can feasibly run that driveline. For example, a Mercedes C63 AMG S could realistically run an AWD swap quite easily because the C300 4-Matic and C43 AMG both have AWD, and a Subaru Imprezza 22B could realistically run any setup since they way they're designed all you really have to do is pull a driveshaft from the car to change its driveline config. But a Dodge Viper can't run any driveline swaps because the platform was only designed for RWD, and an AWD or FWD swap would require the entire chassis to be rebuilt from scratch to accommodate the new driveline. For aspiration swaps, this I don't have any problem with, because you can do this relatively easily to almost any car. If anything, I'd actually like this expanded, it's a bit annoying that certain engines are limited to natural aspiration just because "lol its racing engine its against rules to modify it". Forza Horizon doesn't portray any form of organized racing, it's all amateur street racing sanctioned solely by the Horizon festival and only not illegal because apparently the festival has permission to run these events. Organized racing rules have no place in Forza Horizon when it comes to tuning cars.

[@adamcroteau8711]

I agree with all the tire stuff *OTHER THAN OMITTING DRAG TIRES* because in real life, drag racing tires are astronomically different than road racing tires, and keeping them in the game adds a whole extra section of content. The addition of drag tires was my favorite change from horizon 3 to horizon 4

[@socwyvern9745]

Forza Motorsport 2 kind of tried to have restrictions with their PI system but it was only single values, like weight only or HP only. So for the 3800lbs+ races I’d just get a 600HP mustang with Hoosiers and call it a day.

[@JhonnyMordecai]

You should try Snowrunner, it's a truck sim game where you deliver cargo across 3 (5+ if you have the season pass) post- natural disaster regions and help rebuild each reagion. To put it more simple, it's like death stranding but with trucks.

[@delayed_control]

The main problem with the AWD swap is not the PI itself but mainly how UNPHYSICALY LIGHT the AWD is. The AWD swaps only increase the mass by like 30 kilograms! That's bullshit. Not only should some of these cars be IMPOSSIBLE to AWD swap due to their construction (and there's no limitation like this in the game) but the mass gain should sometimes be like 10 times that. Then it would be balanced. As it is, AWD swaps not only outperform all single axle drives, they also OUTPERFORM NATIVE AWD VEHICLES. Because the cars that are natively AWD have more realistic power to mass ratios.

[@tumate45]

Well, the last bit got a little bit too complicated, but the tyre stuff and the power to weight ratio could work. Like we see in the thumbnail, the Alfa TZ2 is a beautiful and fun car to drive, but yeah, that I6 swap really overpowers it. I tried to get close to that power to weight with other cars, but for the life of me I couldn't. That 750kg is just too low to get too, even the damn lightweight e-type jag is couple of hundred kilos heavier, but has the same power and you need to use more of your skills for it.

[@avsnewscast]

I would like to see some Gran Turismo Sport content that would be pretty cool

[@harrysadler4622]

A problem with going off power to weight ratio is it only works as intended with the same engine between cars. Different engines have different torque and power curves, both could have the same power to weight ratio but one sustains peak torque and power over a much larger rev range.

[@rumgum8935]

I feel you man.. I only race my honda acura type r fwd non turbo for a class online.. Im always last at the start but a lot of races I end up first because a lot of people have overpowered under handling cars and I carve past them in the corners. In saying that there are alot of good racers and guys I see often and I no it's going to be some fair good racing

[@wolfgangkoeppen52]

I have another idea to add-on, instead of a slider that you can use the change a major aspect of a car, you can 'dyno" your car and tune it (like how you can in NFS pro street) to adjust power output to adjust PI in that sense plus the GUP plate and skin were top notch

[@ZeroSuitSamo]

So I agree with most of your suggestions, and offer a few tweaks. For the tires: I don't think it should be automatically tied to your class. Instead I think each class should have its own compound in each category. So if you have an A class car, you can give it A class tire compound without effecting the PI. You can give the car S1/2 compound if you want to just dick around on the map (kinda like an X class car) but you won't be able to compete with it. On the flip side, if your build puts you just over A class into S1 by a couple points, you could elect to put B class compound on it instead. Personally I think you should be able to build a car that goes like hell in the straights, but will lock up and skid off the track in the corners if you want. It just needs to be balanced in a way that the performance level between the cars is still close. For the engine swaps, I get where you're coming from, but honestly I only ever do it when the stock engine can't make the amount of power I'm looking for. And really I think it needs to be more universal, that is to say make all cars able to swap engines. Iirc the C1 corvette can't do an engine swap, so you are stuck with the shitty Blue Flame straight 6 that makes no power. I could understand if the engine bay isn't wide enough for a V8, but there are plenty of modern engines of that form factor that could fit and make a lot more power. Lastly, for the engine power slider. I played one of the older Grand Torismo games, I think it was 5, on the PS3. The engine modification was boring having come from Forza Motorsport 4. I had 3 options for turbos and three stage kit levels to choose from. Boring. However I do very much hate being just 1 or 2 points under/over the class limit. My suggestion is to have a slider worth a certain percentage (maybe 10% at most) of the overall power in the form of the engine tune. Because irl 2 cars with the exact same parts could be making wildly different power figures depending on how well they were tuned. And this is true for both modern computer controlled cars and carburetor models. I personally think it would be fun to be able to adjust timing, fueling, boost pressure etc. to try and get the most out of the engine, but I understand most people wouldn't want to put that much effort into it.